I was blessed/cursed with 5 college roommates that studied engineering and became engineers. In order to keep up with my friends and stay included in conversations I had to keep up with pretty much what they were learning in their classes and yes that meant having to learn some long hair brain bending engineering concepts. On the other hand engineers are math nerds... unlike me. So II learned really quickly to simply do fast math and guestimate and just allow them to correct me to the seventh decimal place. Surprisingly, my fast math was pretty good and my arguments usually held water... but having a roommate that memorized his multiplication tables up to 5 digits and a good friend with a photographic memory, I basically got lazy and simply learned to never do my own math. After all of these years, I still have friends who are engineers and amazingly they sill can't help themselves. Half way through any discussion they still disassemble every problem into it's constitute components and start crunching the numbers. You see, using fast math, I'd say if the battery craps out the second month that the car is out of warranty you're screwed. While my engineering friends would calculate the average life of the battery and the average cost of the battery and come up with just how much you are likely to be screwed when it happens and when it is likely to happen based on the MTBF. I might say that tires are more likely to wear out faster on a heavier car due to my experience and they are going to actually try and predict the life span based on road friction, material composition and such... I've learned that engineers are often right because engineers simply hate to be wrong. I mean hate to be wrong, not like normal people, but being right is like a religion. I mean when engineers are wrong bridges fall down, buildings collapse and society falls apart and no one has any use for engineers that are wrong. So, yea... I've run the EV equation across my friends and they pretty much came up with worse numbers than John did. In fact the numbers got quite dismal when battery life was thrown into the equation and engine failures were accounted for. So... there's no reason to second guess John's numbers, he's most likely right... I mean he's most likely done the actual math which the rest of us are too lazy to do. Also, based on my fast math and resale values... once EVs go out of warranty their resale prices plummet. This is in my wheelhouse as a psychology/sociology double major and it has to do with fear and reward. There's very little reward socially in buying a used car. Sure, people might think better of your 10 year old Mercedes than a 10 year old Nissan... but it's just another old Mercedes. Everyone knows you didn't drop $100,000.00 on it when you drive it into your company parking lot where you work as a security guard. Old cars of any kind aren't status symbols... until they become antique or classic at least. So basically the social reward for dropping big bucks on old cars of any kind just aren't there, for the most part. And that's when fear comes into play. An older and out of warranty EV is a time bomb that causes stress. Sure the car was cheap, but the motors and batteries will total the car when they fail. There's no debate here. If you ran your credit to the limit to buy a $10.000.00 EV there's no way you can afford an new battery or electric motor. And there is no financing for car parts. You wind up with a $10,000.00 curbside ornament that's costing you $200.00 in payments, plus car insurance and registration that you are pushing from one side of the street to the other and back for alternate side of the street parking every Thursday while you are Ubering to work every day. This is a terrifying prospect for potential second and third owners of EVs who aren't affluent. So, until someone warranties the major drive components for the projected life of the car there's never going to be a good used market for these cars.. and who in their right mind would do that. If you buy an EV, you are going to take a bath reselling it once it reaches a certain age... I can replace my ICE engine with a good used engine at least 5 times for the price of a single EV battery and toss in a few rebuilt transmissions to boot. And if I go with rebuilt parts, I'll even get a really good warranty. There's no such options for EVs. Lastly I do disagree with John on whether taxpayers should fund EV purchases for rich kids that want them. Simply put the taxpayers are often hard working people that can't afford to take advantage of EV incentives. Their hard earned money goes to support people who are actually more affluent than they are, which is simply wrong. I get financing national defense or feeding starving children or supporting the mentally handicapped. That's only reasonable for a compassionate society that has an interest in it's own survival. Even funding the police that keep my family safer at night isn't an awful idea. But seriously giving Tesla environmental tax credits and rich kids money to buy expensive toys isn't my job. And if I have to pay road use taxes to maintain our roads, why shouldn't every one else? I mean they use the roads too, so why shouldn't they pay for them? If you drive a car, you get to help fill the potholes. This should be apparent to everyone. Then of course VW gets to apply their diesel fines to building their new EV infrastructure. I had to breathe their toxic fumes so they can get charger network for their new EVs... Seems like a fair deal, I sacrificed my health so rich kids and big corporations can get a free ride. How about donating all of that money to cancer research and treatment instead? This way I might actually get something for my potential pain and suffering. Lets cut the subsidies and the tax incentives and the clean air credits and tax everyone fairly and let EVs evolve naturally. Frankly, I'm fine with EVs as long as I'm not paying for yours. If you want an EV and you think it's cheaper than an ICE car and you have enough money to buy one. good on you mate, just keep your grubby paws out of MY pockets! Put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is and save the world on YOUR dime.
Tax breaks will only ever be there for just a few short years... and then the legislative bans on new ICE cars will have taken over. So no-one will have a choice when buying a new car - thus the used ICE car market will boom! (Unless we all have solar roof panels by then???) Plus EV manufacturers will HAVE to get behind the used EV repair and renovation industries because not everyone can afford to scrap their 7 Yr old Tesla and buy a new one! Are you listening, ELON???
Good points RJ do we also have to add motor failure stress to battery mileage stress? Will the under 30’s be able to handle that without counselling or demand it’s their right to be helped as they were trying to do good using an EV. Do they have posters of Greta on their walls to admire I wonder? Taxing of EV will rise as stated as they will also wear the roads out more being heavier and having high torque engines, and we know EV drivers like to show how fast these things accelerate
@@markchip1 Good ideas and products almost never need to be legislated. For example, if someone developed a $1.00 single pill that prevented and cured cancer there would be no need for a law that requires anyone to take it. I'm guessing that everyone in the world with a dollar would be standing in line until they had one. Bad, marginal and expensive ideas and products need legislative support to flourish. When EVs become better and cheaper than ICE cars, ICE cars will become extinct like those giant lizards that didn't like cold weather. As to pollution... it's a matter of population. Humans consume resources and pollute. The more humans, the fewer renewable resources there are to go around. Many modern countries can't even feed themselves and some couldn't even feed themselves 60 years ago. If there were fewer cars, our planet could process their waste. EVs are just a stop gap measure or a side show to preserve a system and a population curve that's unsustainable. Even John admits it's only a way of moving the source of the pollution out of the cities. As if rural polluted air doesn't somehow spread around the world through diffusion etc.
@@markchip1 Legislative bans aren't going to happen anytime soon, regardless of various "policy statements" (read: dreams) and laws passed (which will be undone once the idiots passing/signing said laws realize the infrastructure to support EVs won't build itself for free.
@Alfred Wedmore You are absolutely correct, our society rewards people with destructive pursuits. If you own a charity, you are expected to live in poverty, like Mother Theresa. If you own a strip mining company, you should be wealthy. Likewise, investment bankers that destroy profitable businesses, lay off workers and sell off the corporate assets are expected to get 7 figure bonuses. As to politicians... good ideas that benefit the masses don't need the support of politicians or legislation, people are more than happy to do good and beneficial things... If it weren't for corrupt special interests, we wouldn't need politicians at all. If it weren't for wealthy special interests, trying to get richer, politicians would all be out of work, and then where would we be?
6:44 I can't tell you how happy it makes me (sadly) to hear you say "dampers." I've been putting up with "dampeners" from most people for years now, and it always makes me want to ask: what it is, exactly, that it's making damp? Then people give me a strange look and back away hurriedly. :-P
@@kevinrogan9871 Actually, it "damps" the vibrations or oscillations, it doesn't "dampen" then. It's part of the same common misuse because the words are so similar.
This very scenario took place some 15 years ago in RC (radio control hobby), with the introduction of brushless electric motors and the arrival of Lithium Polymer batters, at roughly the same time. The argument of the economics of electric vs 1/10 and 1/8th scale cars raged for some time. Until the price of nitro fuel started to really jump, and the price of LiPO batteries started to contract. The discussion also raged on about the range of electric RC over the 2 stroke fuelled cars for some time. The real danger was, that the very same people that didn't understand 2 stroke engine tuning, maintenance, responsible ownership, and operation of the models, then fled and jumped the electric bandwagon. These people equally didn't understand the more complex nature of running electric models, which includes knowledge of charging and storing LiPO batteries. Along with appropriating gearing the models correctly, and being able to do the math on what electronic speed controller would be suitable for their model. Subsequentially, people started fires or outright burnt their sheds down because they didn't charge the LiPO batteries in safety containment bags, or metal containers that would isolate a fire. Or flat out gave no consideration to the process of charging a battery, as well as not keeping batteries in a healthy state or condition that contributed to the combustion event. The more relevant point to this comment is, as it is with real cars being discussed in the video, just how little thought was given to maintenance. Only the perceived cost involved in it all. To see the same discussions played out with real cars, after seeing it in the RC hobby many years ago, seems a little ironic and a tiny bit foreshadowing.
I see your point, but I don't think we're talking about entirely the same thing. RC cars are a hobbyist endeavour and the cars, batteries and chargers are not necessarily complete, consumer grade systems to the same extent that an EV is. I would think a fairer comparison would be with mobile phones, tablets, laptops and devices of that nature. Most people driving an EV are buying it from a major manufacturer as a complete system, which includes an onboard charger and battery management system. Your comparison to RC cars seems more akin to someone building a DIY electric car - like Rich Rebuilds' electrified mini or the like. Buying a tested, complete system from a major manufacturer is not fool proof. There have been battery fires in EVs from a number of manufacturers, but the same can be said of phones and I'd wager that the prevalence of fires or at the very least battery failures which involve some degree of exothermic energy release are far more likely among people tinkering with components they've cobbled together from the intertubes than in consumer products bought from major manufacturers, whether we're talking phones or cars.
@@brettski74 The high voltages in EV's (200-800 Volts) makes them a hazard for novice maintenance and tinkering. Manufacturers have hit the jackpot until consumers wake up.
@@mael-strom9707 I agree. The power and energy available in an EV battery pack combined with their sheer size and mass really puts them out of the realm of safe handling of most people.
Interesting point. The racing versions of EVs sound like giant RC cars too! They actually have a certain scream that future car nuts will love. The Formula E racing is close and enjoyable too
EVs are no more economically viable than a big SUV for daily driving or a top of the range Benz or BMW. I bought an EV and it wasn't to save money or save the environment. I bought it because it is nicer to drive, quiet and can charge it at home (no need to go to add petrol) I couldn't buy an ICE car that is as quiet and smooth. And I also noticed that when I park it in the garage there is no heat from the car.
no heat until a borderline inextinguishable lithium fuelled fire is melting your house roof. a simple line of code can and will kill someone with an ev.
@@siiioxide you comment applies to any modern day vehicle with the latest technology could be hacked and weaponised to kill the driver and or passengers.
@@siiioxide apparently the light on the Benz badge on some cars could cause the brakes to fail and presumably also kill people. A line of code in any modern car can kill people no matter it is electric or ICE. Just in case you didn't know the throttle in an ICE is controlled by a computer. When you press the accelerator pedal you tell the computer how hard you want to go and the computer decides how far to open the throttle. So if the computer wanted it could go flat out and there is nothing you can do about it. Even the off button just tells the computer that you want to turn the engine off. The computer then decides when to turn it off.
But some of us in other countries pay over $2 a litre for gas and have electricity that comes almost entirely from renewables not coal :-D The break-even point is getting close here.
Genuine question, what's the average yearly kms in NZ? Looked it up. Seems to be around 10,000 km per year. So it's still going to take quite a few years to recoup the difference.
Rest assured once EV's become a significant portion of the national fleet, they'll add road user charges, like diesel vehicles pay. We pay over $2 because the Government loves increasing the petrol tax a couple of times a year. As petrol use drops they'll stopping getting their bang-for-buck. EV's, which are generally heavier, cause more wear and tear on the roads. I believe the road damage increases with the cube of the axle weight ( I looked that up years back when I wondered what caused more road damage, a bus full of people or all the people driving cars. Turns out a half full bus is worse than 30 cars.)
The other thing that cracks me up is that you get labelled an EV hater if you bring up any drawbacks to them even if that's not the case. You drive one and you still get labelled an EV hater. As they say, haters gunna hate...
EV's are expensive because the technology is new, however given the rate at which costs are coming down 2023 will be the point at which EV's will equal ICE vehicles in cost. When people have a choice of an ICE Camry for $23,000 or an equivalent EV at $23,000 it's a no brainer! Service cost will be significantly cheaper despite what JC says 90% of the service cost relates to the engine and transmission, the remaining 10% will still require servicing which is the brakes, suspension, cabin filters, AC, etc. The cooling system in an EV is under no where near the stress of an ICE vehicle and will last 100,000km or 10 years before needing to be flushed. However legacy automakers will do their best to build as much obsolescence into EV's just like ICE vehicles so they can keep their dealer network alive......won't work though!
Counter argument: technology is old. It has been around long enough and also been actively suppressed. It has also vastly improved though. In the end it's all about profit margins. They can't sell a cheaper electric when ICE cars keep coming off the assembly line one row over.
@@nmn8829 Lithium, nickel and cobalt are only used in small amounts and have very little effect on the overall costs coming down. Battery factories (Giga factories) are very expensive to build, we are talking Billions! As the Battery factories product more and more products the profits pay off the Capital investment and then the product becomes cheaper over time it called Economies of Scale, this is how EV will become cheaper.
Service costs for ev’s will potentially be the same if not higher for newer vehicles under warranty. Why? Most of the service costs associated with ice vehicles under warranty are to ‘inspect’ various things, which will still be required in an ev vehicle. I’m sure there will need to be some testing of the electronics, battery condition also. I doubt any EV dealership service department will forgo profit from mostly inspection services for EV vehicles if they don’t have to.
@@paulh71 Yes they are inspecting ICE related components, most of which EV's don't have. I've not taken my model S for a service in 5 years! One set of tyres ,fill up the windscreen washer bottle, that's it! Compare that to my Subaru WRX $500 to $1000 per year for servicing. Dealerships are "Dead man walking".............
As an early adopter of EVs (or any new product) you have to accept that you will pay a premium. I have argued this with fellow owners on forums who like to delude themselves that EVs are a value proposition. They are not.......yet. But EVs will fall in price over the decade as production ramps so there will be a sweet spot hit in the coming years.
@@AutoExpertJC Same old garbage comparing dirt slow Kona gasser to Kona EV with almost twice the power. Pick something comparable like VW GTI instead of comparing bicycle to Posche.
@@mychevysparkevdidntcatchfi1489 I own a Kona Electric and I think the Kona EV vs Kona 1.6T is a reasonable comparison. The electric is a bit quicker for sure, but based on 0-100 and quarter mile times, not by that huge of a margin. The EV has more power and torque, but also significantly more mass. Additionally, the EV is only front wheel drive and it's very easy to spin the front wheels if you plant your foot. That's one thing I really wish the Kona EV had - an AWD system to help put more of that power onto the road. The ICE version does have an AWD option, so while the engine may not produce as much torque off the line, the AWD version is probably able to put more torque onto the road. Additionally, I believe Hyundai offers effectively the same set of options outside of the drivetrain, so for comparing price, it's easier to get a similarly spec'd ICE vehicle to more fairly compare price.
Well it all depends on where you are from. Here in Denmark the Kona electric cost $65292 AUD while the equivalent 1.6 petrol cost $61148 AUD. Petrol is around $2,28 AUD pr. liter while we pay $0,39 AUD pr. kWh. I drive around 27.000 km a year so the EV is cheaper after the first year.
That is just what John said in his opening comments that his video is specific to AUSTRALIA and all others from any other country can watch on. So Australians do not live in Denmark Dah so of course it is different so Open the closed EV ears and listen. Even taking into account English is not your first language
If he posted this in 2011 it might make sense. In 2021 it only shows he's years behind current reality. There are now Chinese made short range EVs for $6,000. Soon the big automakers will be selling EVs for the same price as ICE vehicles and even before that happens EVs will outperform ICE in every way from life cost to power to reliability to range to ease of recharging for those who can do it at home. EV owners can create their own electricity on their own property. Try drilling and refining petrol. The ICE age is quickly coming to an end. Try not to miss it.
@@ronvandereerden4714 If those short-range EVs are so great, why doesn't someone import them over to Australia, US and EU? My guess is there is some fineprint involved, such as those cars being death traps (like that Reva G-Whiz), having a top speed not adequate for highway driving, or made with abysmal quality. Do those EVs even classify as cars? The term "EV" term was invented precisely because not all car-like electric vehicles imported from places like China and India classify as cars. For example, the Reva G-Wiz classifies as a quadricycle motorcycle in the EU and as a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle in the US (and does meet the safety requirements of a car in either jurisdiction).
I had an Outlander PHEV for 4 years: - There are definitely annual service intervals. - These services cost the same as their petrol contemporaries. - I incurred additional costs on battery testing/balancing that never was required on petrol/Prius. - Over that time, battery degradation meant that I lost 35% of range - the odo was under 100K. How many diesel and petrols decrease efficiency/range by 20% over 4 years? - The battery replacement costs are around $26K that will give you 50km range! - the warranties are less comprehensive and shorter than petrol/diesel cars. - battery warranties do not appear to cover degradation, only factory defects or total failures. - There was a significant premium over the diesel and petrol models at the time. It was materially higher than the estimated savings. As a result of the above - I now drive a diesel.
@@dps615 Did you watch this video? Electric engines are not repairable and cost 1/2 much as they car when they brake. Full EV cars destroy the batteries after less than 10 years, they cost like 20-30k. Batteries are made from fossil fuels, we are going into a long term hydrocarbon energy supply crisis, batteries prices are getting more expensive and they're about to get a lot more expensive. EV's and the rapid battery degradation problems means old EV's will be worthless and low income people will be left with no affordable options for a car.
@@tbone5654 I'm not even sure I can even bother replying because your response is so hilarious. You need to do further research on modern day LfP and m3p batteries. Battery costs continue to drop year over year. Now 80% drop in price in less than 10 years. Running costs and maintenance is much less than an equivalent ICE car. When the battery is required (estimated 500,000 miles ) I will have saved enough money to buy a further 3 cars!
@@dps615 Do some h/w kid. Battery prices went down for 10 years but the tide has turned. Prices are up 20% this year already. Oil is on it's way to $200 a barrel thanks to ESG fueled hydrocarbon investment collapse. Battery input costs are exploding and will rocket higher thanks to a decade of under investment in critical minerals and liquid fuel production.
@@tbone5654This is a short term increase. You've seemed to have ignored the fact that the majority of cars makers have committed to going fully electric by 2030. As production is ramped up for EVs price will steadily decrease while ICE vehicles while steadily increase as there is less demand. By 2035 it'll be illegal to sell ICE cars in much of Europe. By then Tesla will be one of the largest car manufacturers in the world.
Why is nobody talking about the replacement cost of the battery packs which sure as hell wont last 9.5 years!!! and the damage being caused by the mining of the materials to make the batteries!! Saving the planet!! I dont think so.
Neometals is building recycling plants with a German company to recycle the batteries. 10% of all manufactured batteries don't make the grade and need to be recycled immediately. The only material thats not able to be put back into the production facility immediately is spherical graphite... They were having difficulty recycling the Lithium component of the battery due to its chemical makeup (to similar to magnesium in structure) until the went hydro instead of pyro process... Lithium was being burnt away in previous recycling techniques.
Where do you get your numbers from about not lasting 9.5 years? To the best of my knowledge there's currently no EV old enough to provide that kind of stats. Consequently, predictions range from 8 years pessimistically to 20 years optimistically. Also, battery lifespan is usually not measured in years, it's measured in charge cycles. Around 1000 cycles is normal for poor-quality batteries. I charge about once a week while working, i.e. ~50 times a year. That's (theoretically!) 20 years lifespan. After 20 years I'd pessimistically expect the battery capacity to drop to ~75%ish percent. Taking John's Kona as an example. It's advertised as a 64kWh usable battery. In reality, the Kona seems to have about a 72kWh battery. It's unknown whether it applies safety buffers at the top AND bottom end, but it's likely. What does that mean, you ask? Well, while the battery itself would be degraded to 75% after 20 years, as a driver I'd still have ~84% of the original range. That's what the buffers are for. Not all EVs have such buffers, and Tesla for example had them in the beginning but did away with them to "magically" provide more range with a "software update". That whole argument about "EVs are just as dirty" does get on my nerves a bit. I did a lot of research on it, and frankly EVs are cleaner - still shitty for the environment, but not remotely as bad as oil. At least not yet. I'm sure, humans being humans, we'll get there. While a bit of a propaganda piece (they don't list sources - EDIT: They added sources. Wonders over wonders. Assholes) they're more or less accurate in most points: ruclips.net/video/1oVrIHcdxjA/видео.html One overly optimistic source about battery lifespans: www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/batteries
@@wombatdk People forget its the humble tradey that is quietly pushing along the batteries development. Remember nic-cads, nickel metal hydrate, now lithium ion. We started with 9v 1/2 amp. Now 56v 15 amp. Its always improving. KEEP screwing around dudes.
Everyone has also conveniently forgotten the 1973 oil crisis when petrol was rationed in AUstralia and long queues would form outside petrol stations. Think that would never happen? History has a tendency of repeating. Australia is completely dependent on OPEC, and if they say jump we would be asking them how high.
@@TheKnobCalledTone. 100%. I just wish Scomo and other pollies would start saying it. And then follow through with some policies, like a modest tax rebate on an EV purchase under $70k, if earning less than $200k/year, massive rollout of charging stations across the regions, and other incentives. Currently Australia's collective energy and transport security has been left up to the individual.
@@jebes909090 Importing oil from Saudi Arabia via Singapore and the South China Sea... I can see a couple of issues there. For charging an EV, if you have rooftop solar and a domestic battery, blackouts don't matter. The only problem would be if the Sun went out, but I think we'd have other things on our minds if that happened
Electric car sales have doubled so far this year. Interesting. That's with zero incentives in Australia, one of the few countries in the world to not support EVs, despite it being in our national interest to do so. So clearly Ausralia's citizens know something that our politicians and policy makers (who are busy trying to tax and stifle their uptake any way they can) do not.
@@yggdrasil9039 Why should a small percentage who want to buy an EV be subsidised by the Australian taxpayer,I certainly don't want my taxes going in that direction.
@@pattheslut Because if correctly targetted for people under a certain income and for cheaper EVs only, it would have a net benefit to society, to cleaner air, and to energy and transport security, as well as support the transition to EVs away from OPEC dependence, and not cost the taxpayer very much at all, a tiny fraction of 1% compared to Coronavirus handouts. It also means that Australian economy is being supported rather than foreign oil companies, to the tune of $49B a year. Currently you are already subsidising OPEC every time you fill up at the bowser.
@@pattheslut Not only are your taxes sponsoring the petrol industry (and the car industry when they were still alive insisting to build cars that not enough people wanted), you and I are also sponsoring the mining industry. Yes you and I are indirectly giving hard earned cash to Gina Rinehart... So I don’t know about you but I’d rather sponsor the future instead of a filthy rich horrible person.
Spending 25k more in advance to start "saving it" in a timeframe of at least 10 years is indeed some special logic. 🤭 If EVs weren't so heavily subsidized in many states nobody would buy them.
why are they even subsidized. did anyone even ask us about if we want such a thing? i'd appreciate more road and other infrastructure repairs. no one cares about no silly electric cars.
I think people would buy them. There are plenty of Tesla Models S and X out there on the road. Not sure how the subsidies work where you live, but here they don't qualify for subsidies because of their high price. There are plenty of reasons to buy an EV which have nothing to do with saving money, just like there are plenty of reasons to buy a Pagani that have nothing to do with saving money. Anyone who has the means to buy one and who's done their homework knows both that an EV is not a cost-saving endeavour and why they actually want to buy one.
Fossil fuels, and therefore ICE vehicles, are the most heavily subsidized industries in the world. EV subsidies and incentives don't even come close and never will.
The real big subsides are going to the fossil fuel companies. From the direct tax breaks to the hidden subsidies of military expenditure to support the fossil fuel industry to the massive subsidy of being able to externalise their pollution costs, they are the money grubbers here.
Great analysis as always Caddo. I'm a 70-year-old Aussie battler, we bought a low mileage 2nd hand 2011 MB B200 Anniversary in 2013 & only clock up a mere 7000km/year. It's been surprisingly cheap to own & maintain, it needed a new battery, everyone said it'd cost AQU$800 but it was AU$500, not bad for a 9-year-old car (at the time). The services (1/year) have been far less than we were paying for our previous BMWs, we've never had to leave the car there overnight & the customer service is exceptional. There's no way we're going Tesla, the change-over price would exceed AU$60K & I have some serious health issues. I consider myself a considerate husband so when I take my final exit, I don't want to leave my wife with an expensive maintenance nightmare. Sheesh, it's crap in the US, I'd hate to think what it'd be here in Shitsville SA. 😳
I love personal vehicles as much as anyone, but government transportation subsidies should be for free at the point of use transit for everyone, not to help rich people buy luxury vehicles. I have no desire to trade my car for a bus pass but no one should be left out on the kerb because they can't afford to pay to get to their next job interview.
@@altond511 ha, I wish. What I mean is if I take a loan for the EV which is $31k more, then I will pay more interest on it compared to equivalent loan for the ICE car. Same applies to a cash purchase. The 31k saved will be earning interest for 10 years (if I don't spend it on other fun things obviously)
Unique style and humorous commentary! U get the point across, we get independently informed, and we can also enjoy a laugh. Well done John, keep it coming! 👍
@@ericdolby1622 have you ever driven an EV? I'm guessing not. Except for a few high performance cars, Petrol sucks compared to EV as a driving experience.
@@jeffberwick yes a model 3 but this was several years ago. I'm just not into them. I really don't care for nanny systems and I didn't like the absence of character or soul. They just don't do anything for me. On top of that the expense and the annoyance of charging since I can't do it from my home. Just nah. I love the technology behind a sweet sounding petrol motor and rowing through the gears. Plus Teslas are ugly and supposedly they are the benchmark. Which is laughable.
@@ericdolby1622 I get it. I also like manual transmissions and a sweet high revving engine. But a lot of V-8 car guys like the fastest EVs. It's great to have stealth 1-G acceleration in compete silence. The looks stuff is always subjective. I happen to like the looks of Model 3 and Model S. In terms of range , charging , and performance the Teslas are definitely the benchmark.
Might add up to date trends are adding cripple ware to cars like apple did by slowing down old iphones claiming it preserves old batteries, like in recent times you miss a payment on that new EV someone at HQ flicks a switch and it no longer runs, has already happened.
The Benz with the faulty motor probably just needed a $20 set of bearings. Unfortunately no one is game enough to have a go and the dealer certainly will rather sell you a new motor than a new set of bearings.
@Alfred Wedmore www.skf.com/au/news-and-events/news/2019/2019-05-17-customised-and-hybrid-bearings-solve-fundamental-issues-in-electric-vehicles Ceramic balls SKF: "Switching conventional steel balls for their ceramic equivalent, to make a so-called hybrid bearing, is a recognised way of solving this problem, because the ceramic balls are naturally insulating. However, due mainly to their higher cost, only a small number of EV designers incorporate hybrid bearings in their designs. At SKF, we estimate that only around 5% of bearings in these applications are hybrid ones. Typically, these hybrid bearings have only been specified because of the earlier failure of steel bearings in these applications. Very few EV designers specify hybrid bearings from the beginning, but we see that this is beginning to change."
EVs have permanent magnet motors. There is about 1mm air gap between the rotor and the stator. The magnets are embedded in the rotor so you will not damage the magnets if the rotor rubs. For all intents and purposes they are like a standard 5kw induction motor. Getting to the bearings is relatively easy. As long as the owner stopped driving the car when the noise started there shouldn't be any substantial damage to the motor. As for burnt out stator, it is extremely unlikely because the inverter makes sure it never gets past a certain temperature and rewinding one is just like rewinding a standard induction motor. (I know because I have rewound an EV motor to get more power) so I can tell you that changing those bearings would not have been any more difficult than changing the bearing clutch on a manual transmission. And I have also repaired some WV inverters (not even $100 for the parts) and done some battery upgrades/replacements. Right now it is expensive because not many people know how to repair them. As there are more around everyone will learn what to do and will become the same as any ICE car repair.
Probably can't hear you over the 6pm ratting of scuttles as Reg and Barry start chucking more coal on the fire to charge up them city kids cars every evening
With EV costs you forgot to mention a lot of people get loans to buy cars. They will need to factor the extra interest paid on the larger loan they took to afford their EV
Autralia is really fucked up, crazy. Govt incentives are here to offset the environmental and human cost of combustion cars. EVs need service, but over lifetime, only about 1/3 of an equivalent ICE.
Once again you made the difference by this exquisite review John! Very detailed with lots of measurable evidence and figures that noone can easily deny! Thank you for the impartial and objective approach!
EVs will be like "premium" german cars: when they get to 10 years old, the prices fall off a cliff because of high maintenance (battery and power electronics on EVs) prices. The difference is, it'll apply to all EVs, not just the "premium" ones
@@manicdee983 ,I wasn't referring to Teslas specifically. I like their cars' specs, but not their business model, so won't be buying one, and consider their quality faults to be growing pains. Teslas have a decent amount of overprovisioning, others are unknown, but there is a growing number of cases of failing batteries, and Tesla (and others) just quote you a new battery. You know how much they cost, and if you can't find an independent specialist (which will still cost a few $1000), you're left with scrap. Power inverters have been known to fail in brands known for their reliability, and they cost as much as a new ICE. Many people can only afford cars costing less than any of those repairs, and if things don't change, they'll be playing russian roulette when buying an old EV. Electronics have a U shaped fail curve, and you can't do preventive maintenance, like a cam belt change, so once you pass the engineered fail date it's a lottery, and nobody knows what they chose (remember the Tesla boards failing because the SSD ran out of write cycles?)
Best vid yet John. This issue of price is THE issue with EVs. I love the concept, the tech, the whole 'I can charge it off the house and avoid looking for a bowser'..... but I'll be buggered if I'm going to pay one third or twice as much as an ICE car that will do the exact ssame job! Great to see someone using actual facts and logic 👌
Didnt Jay Leno sayd he havent done any maintenance on his old tesla s ? That he daily drives. While spending a lot on maintemance on ice cars he doesent even drive
Factor in the cost of a new battery every seven years or so and the gap is even wider. EV's may someday be economically competitive with the old internal combustion engine but at the moment they are not even close.
Batteries don't just fail like in a mobile phone or laptop, they degrade over time. I'd be pretty happy to have even half the range after 15 years, I only drive 125 kms at a time
@@lindam.1502 The original Tesla batteries are constructed with a large bank of 18650 Li cells, Panasonic cells to be exact, I have been using the very same cells plus many other brands of the same cell for the past dozen years or so. Laptops also use the same batteries. My experience with these cells is that the very best ones, like the Panasonic, maintain close to full charge capabilities for four or five years then lose about 50% on the sixth year and are finished by year seven. Tesla is now using a slightly larger cell but the construction is the same. Some manufacturers are using batteries specifically designed for cars, hopefully these will last a little longer but if someone has told you 15 years is possible you should ask for a written warranty.
Sorry for you guys in Australia. California is an entirely different matter. For example, I just bought a Model 3 Performance, which included: a $5,000 grant for my income bracket, $2,000 toward installing a home charger (or a $1,000 card to use on supercharging), $2,500-$4,500 rebate - again depending on income, $1,000 rebate from my local electric utility, and, finally, a $3000 rebate from the San Joaquin Valley environmental authority. So, in total, I was given $13,500-$15,500 in incentives, not to mention a discounted electric rate for charging my car at home. Moreover, all the rebates apply to my second Tesla, a Model Y. So I still save an additional $6,500-$8,500 on my second EV. The Federal government is also thinking of bringing back the $7,500 tax credit incentive... Couple that with my driving about 250 miles a day, which work reimburses me for at $0.55/mile - which was costing me about $40/day at $2.90/gallon minimum (now up to $4.05/gallon) out of pocket, I'd be a monumental fool not to buy the EV's. Also, the insurance rates seem to be about 15% cheaper (likely due to their superior safety profile). I realize California is a special case. But, it is the reality I find myself in and am taking full advantage of!
With the amount of private solar systems around Australia ever increasing and battery storage becoming cheaper for home users, is there not a huge potential for saving on charging your own electric vehicle from your own stored energy?
I'm not saying he is incorrect about any of the overall Purchasing, Servicing etc. I'm interested in charging savings side of it in the long term. There are thousands of people who have had solar systems for quite a few years now and whos system will already have paid itself off in the money saved on their general electricity use long ago. So if you then do most of your charging whilst the sun is out or even say 20% of a charge which probably keeps most city folk topped topped up daily for a standard work week, wouldn't that mean a big yearly saving, week on week year on year in general? Considering a solar system say has a hopeful life length of say 15 to 25 years wouldn't that mean the next car purchased would have a free portion to its running life you might not of otherwise had?
Hi Troy, I was an early adopter of Solar panels troy and receive 52c for every Kw I put back into the grid. I have a fixed price rate of $38 cents per Kw I use from the grid, so in my case, it would be better to send my excess electricity from my panels to the grid, so I earn more and charge an EV at night time, I have no cheaper night-time rate like some people do.
Do we really , new tech is not always all it is made to be , in the end it is replacing one thing with another for what is for the most part the a very slightly different device(a car with more gadgets and a different power unit ) for almost the same result with a higher cost with its own set of pros and cons just like the current ones , and make no mistake the cost will be higher for the community monetarily. ..
Agreed. Those taking the early hit are doing good work for the rest of us. Can't blame the early adopters for wanting to think they're saving a bob or two. ICE is on the way out, it may take many years, but there will be plenty more squirming, such as this, from a dying technology as it fades into the history books. I love my CV8, but there's no stopping progress. Cars today and unimaginative, and quite frankly a big pile of twat, at least this is injecting some innovation into the space.
Just a quick note on home charging, if you have control load 2, charging will cost 10-11c/kWh or if you have time of use around 15c/kWh. Since most people will be charging overnight, doesn't matter if the car is fully charged by 9pm or 6am, other paying a high energy bill. The numbers change significantly to 1.8c/KM (averaged at 13c kWh). On top of that there are many free chargers available at shopping centres and destination chargers as well (Tesla is way ahead of the others here).
I wonder how tires hold up on EV's. Every time I'm at a stop light they tend to really take off (exerting that instant torque). Tires are green... right?
@@ursodermatt8809 « Regen is really hard on the tyres »??? Where did you pull that research from? I have a Kona EV. Have chosen to never rotate my tyres as the original Nexen are notoriously bad, and I wanted to replace them ASAP. After 50’000km, my rear tyres are obviously in very good condition (about 75% left) and the front ones still have about 10% left on them. One possible reason people mention for the surprising lack of EV tyre wear despite the torque is the smoothness of the acceleration and deceleration.
Then that would be true for 4wd's as well mate. I dont want a off road wanking chariot and certainly dont want to be lumped in with them. Seeing as you have to have a lobotomy to be allowed to own 1 now days. :)
He hasn't figured in cost of lodging; what do I mean? Say you drive to wedding, vacay, or business call somewhere and there is brownout or blackout, if you're stuck there you'll need hotel lodging til you can recharge
Rooftop solar? Great idea, coming home from work in the evening, plugging my electric car into my solar system and enjoying free recharging... at night.
@@stuartmarshall7099 C'mon, they buy your electrons at 8 cents/kwhr and sell it to you at retail (30 cents/kwhr). Hardly a game changer for charging your EV. Also, in countries that don't have Aussie's fantastic sun figures, your rooftop is not going to be of much use during winter. My off grid system of 10kw PV produces only 2KW for an entire day mid winter low cloud. about 25% of winter for me....
I've been a train driver (railroad engineer - 'murica) for 40 years and have driven diesel and electric trains and locos. You could say I've spent more time comparing EV v ICE designed to do the exact same job than almost anyone on Earth. In my opinion, electric wins hands down every time from a driver's point of view. Almost no noise, no vibration, no fumes, nothing much to check at the servicing bay (cab water, compressor oil, brake shoes), and no range anxiety because they get their power from overhead wires. The company loves them too because almost no heavy maintenance needs doing. No diesel engine to rebuild every so often, don't need fuel facilities and all that goes with it (having fuel trucked in, someone to do the fuelling, etc.) That said, NSW and VIC railways have withdrawn all their electric locos and replaced them with diesels. Why? Because of the cost of aforementioned overhead wires. It costs a fortune to build them and plenty to maintain them. The locos themselves would be no more expensive and are probably a little cheaper than a diesel but that's still not enough to make them worthwhile. Just like two otherwise identical cars, the electric will accelerate much quicker and for this reason, they're great for city stop-start work which is why you see them in passenger service in Sydney and Melbourne. Adelaide and Perth are now electrifying their city lines but have no plans to go beyond that. Even the railways of the Pilbara like Rio Tinto, BHP and FMG which make money hand over fist can't justify the start up cost of electric. I'm sure they've done the sums and concluded that it's cheaper to put diesel fuel into their locos a tank full at a time for many decades rather than put up overhead wiring across the entire system all at once. I'm a petrolhead who owns a Ford Econoline with a 460ci V-8 and I'm building a hot rod, a 1930 Model A with a blown V-12 Jag engine but for general running around I'd take an electric any day of the year. I won't be any time soon though because like the railways I've worked for, I can't justify the start up cost. I put solar panels on my house which I expect to break even on in around 2-3 years but that's a lot different to 25 years. If it were 25 years for the solar panels, I would not have bought them. It's very simple, really.
Excellent comment. Large mining equipment (shovels?) used to be electric. I don't know if that is still the case. The electrification of Perth railways was, and is very successful. It might have contributed to increased passenger rail numbers. Perth is very sprawled and electric rail (my guess) is probably the only option. I am an ex petrolhead (2 smoke, blue stroke) but if I inherit, my next car will be an EV. What is the start up cost of building a Model A blown V-12? Just kidding, not everything needs to be justified.
@@rf7477 2 strokes eh? I always wanted a Suzuki GT-750 but never bought one. Also have a fantasy about putting a boat engine (say a Yamaha V-8) into a bike. Start up cost of hot rod is a fair question. The answer is a friend gave me a 1980 Daimler Sovereign that was rusted beyond belief but mechanically OK for free so start up cost was $100 trailer rental to pick it up. Oh, and the petrol my Ford 460 used. Speaking of petrol, I once owned an XD 302 and thought about putting it on gas. I went to a gas place and they gave me a calculation to do. How many kms do I drive per year? How many km/l does the car do? At current petrol prices, what does that cost? I gave them the answer. They told me what the gas conversion would cost and the likely economy of running on gas. You subtract one from the other and that's how many kms you have to drive to break even, Now, how long will it take to do that? I didn't do it and lucky I didn't as I sold the car around a year later. That said, I'll investigate running the Model A on gas as a 6.0 crank with 5.3 heads produces huge compression. I'd need 98 petrol (bordering on methanol). LPG can produce a ton of power in an engine that's specially built for it but I'm not sure it's as widely available as it was back in the day. Maybe E85 is the go. We'll see.
@@davidrayner9832 Ah, just sold my last water bucket. My RD 350 Yammy was a true giant killer in it's day. I sometimes wish Yamaha made cars. Is it true that Volvo uses the yamaha V8? If you like bikes, look up Allen Millyard on YT. Brilliant and funny, ie English eccentric. I now own a tiny and ageing Suzuki 4WD and it is actually going up in value! All the best.
Clickbaity title, leaves out "in Australia", fair game i guess, does explain in video. So in the end we find a story of crazy repair price for niche mercedes EV (less than 5000 out there?). Okay here's another example. My EV age - 9 years, driven distance - 340 000km, reductor oil change - 2 times(around 150k and at 330k)(50€), brake fluid - every 3 years, pads 4-5 years, air filter - each year(diy, 10€). AC/heatpump - never needed maintenance. This is the case for most owners. Like the post he presented in video, it is quite easily close to 2/3 less of a maintenance. Totally free? nope. Thats why it's usually sentenced like "practically maintenance free" - compared to ice car. EU electricity cost, with market plan - easily makes my night time charges cost 0.5-1.5€ per 100km.(0.8-2.4€ per 100mile) Given how cheap solar is and how nutty your kwh price is, I would definitely have rooftop solar in Australia. And he said "31 thousand bucks out front" - why? Doesnt car leasing exist in Australia? And can't you get financing from bank for solar installation? Call it home renovation or whatever. Why out front? And why buy new, you can get so much better deals for 3 year old EV's and still lease them. But hey, maybe this is the la-la land i'm in! :) Wish it was warmer and more sunnier here. And of course, EV prices will change a lot in next 5 years. I hope things get better for aussies too.
Will have a read of the Electric article. Am still trying to get my head around your line from yesterday “chef reach around “. Very entertaining. Cheers!
Even the manufacturers don’t think everything through. They are responding to a perceived want of EVs by the public without having the infrastructure to carry the load. Putting the cart before the horse comes to mind.
@@AutoExpertJC I was talking about FCEVs just this morning. In 'Merica, General Motors used to loan them out to people to drive for two weeks and see how they liked them. I’d pass one on the road every now and again on my morning commute. This was about 20 years ago.
Figures don’t lie but liars figure. My spread sheet and many other SS on line show that the Total Cost of Ownership ($/mile at the end of ownership) is much lower for EVs. Mine is so much cheaper than my three pronged suppository diesel even with a $2500 maintenance charge. Being retired and not driving much, about 2500 miles a year, my biggest hit is depreciation.
John, It was a pleasure to watch your critiques of Electric Vehicles (EV), and I appreciate the mention of our company, QC Charge. We are actually located in San Diego county, California USA, approximately 500 miles (800 km) south of San Francisco. Most cars that we repair or modify are shipped to our shop. We have received cars from as far away as Norway. Like any one to two ton machine rolling down a street, things will wear out and break in any vehicle, regardless of the type of energy used to propel it. An EV is no exception, however, the EV will always be lower cost to own over time, Using energy costs, an EV wins by a large margin. Cars that are the size of a Hyundai Kona EV consume electricity at a rate of approximately 4 miles / 6.5 km per kWh of electricity., therefore using the local cost of electricity can determine the fuel / energy cost per mile / km, plus the total “lifetime” energy cost at 100,000 miles / 160,000 km: -------- USA -- Australia --- ELECTRICITY COSTS --- kWh cost -- $0.12 --- $0.28 Cost / mile - $0.03 --- $0.07 Cost / km - $0.018 -- $0.043 Lifetime -- $3000 --$7000 --PETROLEUM FUEL COST - Consumption rate 30 mpg / 8 L/100 km Litre-----$0.66 --- $1.30 US gallon - $2.50 ---$4.92 Cost / mile - $0.083 --- $0.164 Cost / km - $0.052 --- $0.103 Lifetime -- $8320 --$16480 EV savings - $5320 --$9480 Generally speaking, an EV will have far lower maintenance costs than any petroleum car. Thanks, Tony Williams QC Charge Electric Vehicle Super Center 1497 Poinsettia, Suite 154 Vista, California 92081 USA QCcharge.com +1-844-EV-PARTS +1-844-387-2787 +1-760-798-0342 Hours M-F, 9-5 Pacific Time
Using your albeit super generous estimates, that means that the MG ZS EV would pay itself back after 3.5 years over the top spec petrol MG version (~$11,000 difference.) That's not a bad payback period. From then on, again using your figures, you're saving three and half grand a year. That's based on prices right now and a purchase decision right now. I'd say that was a pretty good deal, as long as you can cope with the 270km range of the EV between charging stations, which is viable for some regional NSW trips at the moment, but not all.
For a Chinese built vehicle the Mediocre Garage ZS EV is damn expensive here in Thailand at 1.190.000 baht which is about Au$52,700. www.mgcars.com/en/mg-models/new-mg-zs-ev/price Add in the fact the only charger is 100Km away to the North and 160km South if the home charger fails we couldn't go very far!
@@hyballs Wow I wonder why so much more expensive in Thailand? In Australia I've tried to find out why the Tesla Model3 SR+ is so much more expensive than in the US and China, but no-one can tell me, not even Tesla Australia.
The top Spec is 18K Lower not 11K. 43,990 - 25,990 = $18000 Of course if you wanted to actually save money on the MG ZS you'd just get the base model and save 22K. So that would take 7 year's to reach break even. Still not bad too bad but how many new car buyers keep a car after 7 years? I'd suggest the one's blowing 43K on a car are unlikely to ever see cost savings because they'd sell it and buy a new one before then.
Good video John. Interestingly my local supermarket complex (Castle Plaza in South Oz) has installed a massive solar panel array which includes free to use 415 volt EV charge stations. Supposedly a customer draw card, to which you would expect rabid money saving EV geeks would be drawn like flies to the proverbial, but I have yet to see an EV at any station during my quite regular visits. My conclusion is that while there is a lot of noise about how wonderful EV's are, the numbers are very thin on the ground. The vast majority of road users have obviously crunched the numbers and are not so sure ;)
Numbers? Vehicles seem to last 12 to 18 years. So why should it not take me 6 years to react to offered free charging? BTW I fear my electric plans couldn't cope with the Voltage offered by your supermarket.
Hey John the running cost calculations have already been done, check out the pdf at www.racq.com.au/cars-and-driving/cars/owning-and-maintaining-a-car/car-running-costs. On average an electric car will never pay itself back, unless comparing to a large SUV or 4WD. Depreciation and interest / opportunity cost are massive on any new car and especially electric cars. If you want to save money buy a 5k corolla and run it until it dies (to about 500k) then repeat. If you're seeking status or fake moral virtue then electric cars might suit.
I agree with your financial assessment except that you left out the sale value of the ev at the end. This is a fact and you don't have to like it... Yessssss...😁
Awesome, JC! FYI, Prof. John Kelly @ weberU recently tore down a Model S drive train. He specifically discusses the rotor bearings and how they addressed the conductivity issue on the bearing innards. I believe it was a 2016 or 2018 model. Interesting shite, actually. Cheers!
elon didnt invent anything new, he's just a business man. nikola tesla practically invented the world we have today lol and elon doesnt even like nikola tesla and i dont like elon because he pits nikolas name on that junk car of his.
Musk isn't even the initial founder - that's Eberhard and Tarpenning. Musk came on board almost a year later though provided a large chunk of the funding.
Not only replacement engines. I mate if mine was given a brand new Kona after the battery was recalled. His plug in hybrid also had a battery failure just outside warranty a $12000 replacement cost. Mitsubishi did a goodwill replacement. What then happens to all the batteries and stuffed cars after 10 or so years. Some extra costs to factor in. I have driven a Kona electric and it went very well. I quite enjoyed it. What turned me off was the long charge time and watching the battery range deplete when you turned the heater or a/c or lights on.
yeah people underemphasize and underestimate the vast difference between pollution free and breathing in vast quantities of myriad different poisons and toxins. Its obscene.
I do 50000kms per year of driving that is 100% ideal for what EVs do..... Makes it a bit more viable.... I wounder what the working life of a kona EV is?
On the battery, these EV li-ion batteries can be expected to last around 1000 cycles. If the car does 400 km per battery charge, it's reasonable to assume a battery lifetime of 400,000km before degradation really eats into range and performance. Usage effects this, you can greatly extend battery cycle life by reducing depth of discharge, and you can accelerate degradation if you only use DC fast charging. As for the motors, who knows. It stands to reason that an electric motor should last for longer than an engine, it has fewer wearable parts, and it doesn't vibrate constantly, but it probably comes down mostly to the quality of manufacturing. The motor+transmission assemblies for electric cars are actually cheaper than the engine+transmission of an ICE car, so in the event of needing a replacement it isn't enormously costly to do a motor swap.
@@0hypnotoad0 I did notice that when ever tesla where talking about the batterys with 250k miles they where very fast to point out that they did very little fast charging or outside of 20%-80% capacity...
Still got to love EV owners, they pull out every trick in the book to make it sound like they save $$$. Reality is they haven’t but they have an aura of Static around them which is quite funny 🔌
If you're comparing Kona gasser that's dirt slow to hot-hatch Kona EV, why not compare to bicycle that's even cheaper? Fact is, Kona EV is on different level performance, and it should be compared to similar cars like VW GTI. In that, Kona EV is way cheaper.
@@sheerluckholmes5468 Irrational are those who compare Kona EV 200 HP (like VW GTI) to dirt slow Kona gasser. Bicycle is even cheaper, but no one compares such different performing vehicles.
@@mychevysparkevdidntcatchfi1489 But what about the usable driving distance difference of the GTI vs. said Kona? Not everybody is racing or even leaving their tires/tyres at the stop sign in the real world, so "off the line" performance is hardly important.
BULLSHIT!!! I call shenanigan! Your a smart guy JC, so lets say all your numbers are correct. Kona is a large SUV and there are many more EV options that are cars, cars that don't have a $25,000 difference between the ICE and the EV. Some may have a $10,000 variance or even less. Many EVs consume less KWH when driven, than compared to the Kona. Petrol is, has, will, get more and MORE expensive as more people switch to EVs and oil companies want to get as much $ as possible for themselves. The rate of petrol at the pump is increasing exponentially. What are the hard numbers on maintenance of the Kona EV vs the Kona 1.6, over a 10 year period? As Hyundai gave you the vehicle, I am sure you could also get the dealer service quotes for each service interval. Batteries are going down in price, so there is that. Sounds like you did the numbers on 1 vehicle and said no economic rational for every vehicle of every brand, and to that I would say....... bullshit! Also what rate of defect is there in EV vehicles compared to ICE vehicles? Any brand can have a issue arise but where is it more prevalent? No EVs are not perfect as they are in the process of entering the mas market, so with time there will be infrastructure, for service and maintenance as needed for these vehicles, but sounds like you want things to be 100% perfect today, and all based on 1 expensive vehicle! Common John, you are smarter that that.
We have been running our EV for 120.000km from 2013-2019. We also had a ICE car at the same time going 100.000km. I had to keep track of all costs as it was used partially for work. The running cost of the EV was about 65% lower than the ICE cost. Certainly not "no-maintanace", but you can actually do more stuff yourself than before. About the break-usage. Of the original 12mm break-pads after 120.000km there were still 9mm left. I think if properly designed a breaking system for an EV could last the entire car-life. The hardening of the pads will be the limiting factor, not the abrasion. Repairing Batteries will be a big business in a couple of years. Usually you can fix a battery pack for a fraction of the cost of a replacement from the OEM. My fried got his old Leaf battery fixed and expanded by 50% for 45% less then the replacement from Nissan. However he had to drive to the Netherlands to get it done.
You pay more for the car initially and you're going to pay a large bill when that battery needs to be changed. That will wipe your smug smile off your face.
@@lindam.1502 Extruders, Injection moulders, Cooling fans in cooling towers, air compressors (big ones), boiler ventilation motors. compounding mills, plastificators and so on. Some of these motors required notifying the power provider before starting up.
It all depends on how your electricity is generated. Other than Tassie (Hydro) most of Australia's electricity is produced by using Coal or Gas, the current Federal Government's preferred option.
Dear John, One thing (I think) you forgot to include in the calculations is the lost interest on the increased up-front cost of an EV and solar array. Long term investments commonly make 8-10% a year, and I don't pay any tax on my superannuation increases. I can't be bothered working it out over 10+ years but in the first year it's almost enough to pay for the petrol and maintenance costs you allowed.😁
I’m from the United States. I really like your videos and I’m learning a lot listening to you.
Me too but to honor the spirit of this channel we shall refer to the US as “North Shitsville” here!
@@SeeSawMacaw that’s awesome!!
I was blessed/cursed with 5 college roommates that studied engineering and became engineers. In order to keep up with my friends and stay included in conversations I had to keep up with pretty much what they were learning in their classes and yes that meant having to learn some long hair brain bending engineering concepts. On the other hand engineers are math nerds... unlike me. So II learned really quickly to simply do fast math and guestimate and just allow them to correct me to the seventh decimal place. Surprisingly, my fast math was pretty good and my arguments usually held water... but having a roommate that memorized his multiplication tables up to 5 digits and a good friend with a photographic memory, I basically got lazy and simply learned to never do my own math.
After all of these years, I still have friends who are engineers and amazingly they sill can't help themselves. Half way through any discussion they still disassemble every problem into it's constitute components and start crunching the numbers.
You see, using fast math, I'd say if the battery craps out the second month that the car is out of warranty you're screwed. While my engineering friends would calculate the average life of the battery and the average cost of the battery and come up with just how much you are likely to be screwed when it happens and when it is likely to happen based on the MTBF. I might say that tires are more likely to wear out faster on a heavier car due to my experience and they are going to actually try and predict the life span based on road friction, material composition and such...
I've learned that engineers are often right because engineers simply hate to be wrong. I mean hate to be wrong, not like normal people, but being right is like a religion. I mean when engineers are wrong bridges fall down, buildings collapse and society falls apart and no one has any use for engineers that are wrong.
So, yea... I've run the EV equation across my friends and they pretty much came up with worse numbers than John did. In fact the numbers got quite dismal when battery life was thrown into the equation and engine failures were accounted for. So... there's no reason to second guess John's numbers, he's most likely right... I mean he's most likely done the actual math which the rest of us are too lazy to do.
Also, based on my fast math and resale values... once EVs go out of warranty their resale prices plummet. This is in my wheelhouse as a psychology/sociology double major and it has to do with fear and reward. There's very little reward socially in buying a used car. Sure, people might think better of your 10 year old Mercedes than a 10 year old Nissan... but it's just another old Mercedes. Everyone knows you didn't drop $100,000.00 on it when you drive it into your company parking lot where you work as a security guard. Old cars of any kind aren't status symbols... until they become antique or classic at least. So basically the social reward for dropping big bucks on old cars of any kind just aren't there, for the most part. And that's when fear comes into play. An older and out of warranty EV is a time bomb that causes stress. Sure the car was cheap, but the motors and batteries will total the car when they fail. There's no debate here. If you ran your credit to the limit to buy a $10.000.00 EV there's no way you can afford an new battery or electric motor. And there is no financing for car parts. You wind up with a $10,000.00 curbside ornament that's costing you $200.00 in payments, plus car insurance and registration that you are pushing from one side of the street to the other and back for alternate side of the street parking every Thursday while you are Ubering to work every day. This is a terrifying prospect for potential second and third owners of EVs who aren't affluent. So, until someone warranties the major drive components for the projected life of the car there's never going to be a good used market for these cars.. and who in their right mind would do that. If you buy an EV, you are going to take a bath reselling it once it reaches a certain age... I can replace my ICE engine with a good used engine at least 5 times for the price of a single EV battery and toss in a few rebuilt transmissions to boot. And if I go with rebuilt parts, I'll even get a really good warranty. There's no such options for EVs.
Lastly I do disagree with John on whether taxpayers should fund EV purchases for rich kids that want them. Simply put the taxpayers are often hard working people that can't afford to take advantage of EV incentives. Their hard earned money goes to support people who are actually more affluent than they are, which is simply wrong. I get financing national defense or feeding starving children or supporting the mentally handicapped. That's only reasonable for a compassionate society that has an interest in it's own survival. Even funding the police that keep my family safer at night isn't an awful idea. But seriously giving Tesla environmental tax credits and rich kids money to buy expensive toys isn't my job. And if I have to pay road use taxes to maintain our roads, why shouldn't every one else? I mean they use the roads too, so why shouldn't they pay for them? If you drive a car, you get to help fill the potholes. This should be apparent to everyone.
Then of course VW gets to apply their diesel fines to building their new EV infrastructure. I had to breathe their toxic fumes so they can get charger network for their new EVs... Seems like a fair deal, I sacrificed my health so rich kids and big corporations can get a free ride. How about donating all of that money to cancer research and treatment instead? This way I might actually get something for my potential pain and suffering.
Lets cut the subsidies and the tax incentives and the clean air credits and tax everyone fairly and let EVs evolve naturally. Frankly, I'm fine with EVs as long as I'm not paying for yours.
If you want an EV and you think it's cheaper than an ICE car and you have enough money to buy one. good on you mate, just keep your grubby paws out of MY pockets! Put YOUR money where YOUR mouth is and save the world on YOUR dime.
Tax breaks will only ever be there for just a few short years... and then the legislative bans on new ICE cars will have taken over. So no-one will have a choice when buying a new car - thus the used ICE car market will boom! (Unless we all have solar roof panels by then???)
Plus EV manufacturers will HAVE to get behind the used EV repair and renovation industries because not everyone can afford to scrap their 7 Yr old Tesla and buy a new one! Are you listening, ELON???
Good points RJ do we also have to add motor failure stress to battery mileage stress? Will the under 30’s be able to handle that without counselling or demand it’s their right to be helped as they were trying to do good using an EV. Do they have posters of Greta on their walls to admire I wonder?
Taxing of EV will rise as stated as they will also wear the roads out more being heavier and having high torque engines, and we know EV drivers like to show how fast these things accelerate
@@markchip1 Good ideas and products almost never need to be legislated. For example, if someone developed a $1.00 single pill that prevented and cured cancer there would be no need for a law that requires anyone to take it. I'm guessing that everyone in the world with a dollar would be standing in line until they had one.
Bad, marginal and expensive ideas and products need legislative support to flourish.
When EVs become better and cheaper than ICE cars, ICE cars will become extinct like those giant lizards that didn't like cold weather.
As to pollution... it's a matter of population. Humans consume resources and pollute. The more humans, the fewer renewable resources there are to go around. Many modern countries can't even feed themselves and some couldn't even feed themselves 60 years ago. If there were fewer cars, our planet could process their waste. EVs are just a stop gap measure or a side show to preserve a system and a population curve that's unsustainable. Even John admits it's only a way of moving the source of the pollution out of the cities. As if rural polluted air doesn't somehow spread around the world through diffusion etc.
@@markchip1 Legislative bans aren't going to happen anytime soon, regardless of various "policy statements" (read: dreams) and laws passed (which will be undone once the idiots passing/signing said laws realize the infrastructure to support EVs won't build itself for free.
@Alfred Wedmore You are absolutely correct, our society rewards people with destructive pursuits.
If you own a charity, you are expected to live in poverty, like Mother Theresa. If you own a strip mining company, you should be wealthy. Likewise, investment bankers that destroy profitable businesses, lay off workers and sell off the corporate assets are expected to get 7 figure bonuses.
As to politicians... good ideas that benefit the masses don't need the support of politicians or legislation, people are more than happy to do good and beneficial things... If it weren't for corrupt special interests, we wouldn't need politicians at all. If it weren't for wealthy special interests, trying to get richer, politicians would all be out of work, and then where would we be?
6:44 I can't tell you how happy it makes me (sadly) to hear you say "dampers." I've been putting up with "dampeners" from most people for years now, and it always makes me want to ask: what it is, exactly, that it's making damp? Then people give me a strange look and back away hurriedly. :-P
Thank you for noticing this, too. I totally agree! ;-)
My car has dampeners on the windshield/windscreen and also one on the rear window. ;)
Yes but dampers dampen the suspension’s oscillations, so there is that
@@kevinrogan9871 Actually, it "damps" the vibrations or oscillations, it doesn't "dampen" then. It's part of the same common misuse because the words are so similar.
@@kevinrogan9871 your Tuesday mnemonic: dampers damp, dampeners dampen
This very scenario took place some 15 years ago in RC (radio control hobby), with the introduction of brushless electric motors and the arrival of Lithium Polymer batters, at roughly the same time. The argument of the economics of electric vs 1/10 and 1/8th scale cars raged for some time. Until the price of nitro fuel started to really jump, and the price of LiPO batteries started to contract. The discussion also raged on about the range of electric RC over the 2 stroke fuelled cars for some time. The real danger was, that the very same people that didn't understand 2 stroke engine tuning, maintenance, responsible ownership, and operation of the models, then fled and jumped the electric bandwagon.
These people equally didn't understand the more complex nature of running electric models, which includes knowledge of charging and storing LiPO batteries. Along with appropriating gearing the models correctly, and being able to do the math on what electronic speed controller would be suitable for their model. Subsequentially, people started fires or outright burnt their sheds down because they didn't charge the LiPO batteries in safety containment bags, or metal containers that would isolate a fire. Or flat out gave no consideration to the process of charging a battery, as well as not keeping batteries in a healthy state or condition that contributed to the combustion event.
The more relevant point to this comment is, as it is with real cars being discussed in the video, just how little thought was given to maintenance. Only the perceived cost involved in it all.
To see the same discussions played out with real cars, after seeing it in the RC hobby many years ago, seems a little ironic and a tiny bit foreshadowing.
I see your point, but I don't think we're talking about entirely the same thing. RC cars are a hobbyist endeavour and the cars, batteries and chargers are not necessarily complete, consumer grade systems to the same extent that an EV is. I would think a fairer comparison would be with mobile phones, tablets, laptops and devices of that nature. Most people driving an EV are buying it from a major manufacturer as a complete system, which includes an onboard charger and battery management system. Your comparison to RC cars seems more akin to someone building a DIY electric car - like Rich Rebuilds' electrified mini or the like. Buying a tested, complete system from a major manufacturer is not fool proof. There have been battery fires in EVs from a number of manufacturers, but the same can be said of phones and I'd wager that the prevalence of fires or at the very least battery failures which involve some degree of exothermic energy release are far more likely among people tinkering with components they've cobbled together from the intertubes than in consumer products bought from major manufacturers, whether we're talking phones or cars.
@@brettski74 The high voltages in EV's (200-800 Volts) makes them a hazard for novice maintenance and tinkering. Manufacturers have hit the jackpot until consumers wake up.
@@mael-strom9707 I agree. The power and energy available in an EV battery pack combined with their sheer size and mass really puts them out of the realm of safe handling of most people.
@@brettski74 Try a 2 stroke laptop.
Interesting point. The racing versions of EVs sound like giant RC cars too! They actually have a certain scream that future car nuts will love. The Formula E racing is close and enjoyable too
EVs are no more economically viable than a big SUV for daily driving or a top of the range Benz or BMW.
I bought an EV and it wasn't to save money or save the environment.
I bought it because it is nicer to drive, quiet and can charge it at home (no need to go to add petrol) I couldn't buy an ICE car that is as quiet and smooth. And I also noticed that when I park it in the garage there is no heat from the car.
no heat until a borderline inextinguishable lithium fuelled fire is melting your house roof. a simple line of code can and will kill someone with an ev.
@@siiioxide you comment applies to any modern day vehicle with the latest technology could be hacked and weaponised to kill the driver and or passengers.
@@siiioxide apparently the light on the Benz badge on some cars could cause the brakes to fail and presumably also kill people.
A line of code in any modern car can kill people no matter it is electric or ICE. Just in case you didn't know the throttle in an ICE is controlled by a computer. When you press the accelerator pedal you tell the computer how hard you want to go and the computer decides how far to open the throttle. So if the computer wanted it could go flat out and there is nothing you can do about it. Even the off button just tells the computer that you want to turn the engine off. The computer then decides when to turn it off.
Francisco Shi This is not new.
I bought an EV to save on fuel and it absolutely does that.
But some of us in other countries pay over $2 a litre for gas and have electricity that comes almost entirely from renewables not coal :-D The break-even point is getting close here.
Sure where
@@jasonmorgan6448 New Zealand -- Far Eastern Australia
Genuine question, what's the average yearly kms in NZ?
Looked it up. Seems to be around 10,000 km per year. So it's still going to take quite a few years to recoup the difference.
@@alanjm1234 Assuming that oil prices don't rise or power prices don't fall. Both are a possibility.
Rest assured once EV's become a significant portion of the national fleet, they'll add road user charges, like diesel vehicles pay.
We pay over $2 because the Government loves increasing the petrol tax a couple of times a year. As petrol use drops they'll stopping getting their bang-for-buck.
EV's, which are generally heavier, cause more wear and tear on the roads. I believe the road damage increases with the cube of the axle weight ( I looked that up years back when I wondered what caused more road damage, a bus full of people or all the people driving cars. Turns out a half full bus is worse than 30 cars.)
0:17 "They may make you feel better" - that sums up the actual value of EV's
FEEL in block letters
"The Car industry : Shiny new toys, same old tricks". Keepin' it real.
The other thing that cracks me up is that you get labelled an EV hater if you bring up any drawbacks to them even if that's not the case. You drive one and you still get labelled an EV hater. As they say, haters gunna hate...
Warren Redlich hates Caddo so much he does everything the complete opposite. Wassa drives a 2018 VW Passat, is clueless & as biased as you can get.
EV's are expensive because the technology is new, however given the rate at which costs are coming down 2023 will be the point at which EV's will equal ICE vehicles in cost. When people have a choice of an ICE Camry for $23,000 or an equivalent EV at $23,000 it's a no brainer!
Service cost will be significantly cheaper despite what JC says 90% of the service cost relates to the engine and transmission, the remaining 10% will still require servicing which is the brakes, suspension, cabin filters, AC, etc. The cooling system in an EV is under no where near the stress of an ICE vehicle and will last 100,000km or 10 years before needing to be flushed. However legacy automakers will do their best to build as much obsolescence into EV's just like ICE vehicles so they can keep their dealer network alive......won't work though!
Counter argument: technology is old. It has been around long enough and also been actively suppressed. It has also vastly improved though. In the end it's all about profit margins. They can't sell a cheaper electric when ICE cars keep coming off the assembly line one row over.
This provided the input costs are cheaper, lithium prices alone have risen by more than 300%, not to mention the price rise in nickel and cobalt.
@@nmn8829 Lithium, nickel and cobalt are only used in small amounts and have very little effect on the overall costs coming down. Battery factories (Giga factories) are very expensive to build, we are talking Billions! As the Battery factories product more and more products the profits pay off the Capital investment and then the product becomes cheaper over time it called Economies of Scale, this is how EV will become cheaper.
Service costs for ev’s will potentially be the same if not higher for newer vehicles under warranty. Why? Most of the service costs associated with ice vehicles under warranty are to ‘inspect’ various things, which will still be required in an ev vehicle. I’m sure there will need to be some testing of the electronics, battery condition also. I doubt any EV dealership service department will forgo profit from mostly inspection services for EV vehicles if they don’t have to.
@@paulh71 Yes they are inspecting ICE related components, most of which EV's don't have. I've not taken my model S for a service in 5 years! One set of tyres ,fill up the windscreen washer bottle, that's it! Compare that to my Subaru WRX $500 to $1000 per year for servicing. Dealerships are "Dead man walking".............
I'm avoiding tax by not smoking. When will I be charged for my oxygen use??
As an early adopter of EVs (or any new product) you have to accept that you will pay a premium. I have argued this with fellow owners on forums who like to delude themselves that EVs are a value proposition. They are not.......yet. But EVs will fall in price over the decade as production ramps so there will be a sweet spot hit in the coming years.
not unless they start making normal cars EV. right now they are overly luxurious and futuristic its completely uneccessary
So, technology is not living up to the hype? Wow, first time for everything!
Had to happen sooner or later mate...
And did I see a report his company stock value dropped $20 Bn recently? seeing a few Tesla’s on the road and they are not pretty cars
@@guyr7351 Today 10/3/2021 11:20 am AEDT Tesla is up for the day $139 Billion
@@AutoExpertJC Same old garbage comparing dirt slow Kona gasser to Kona EV with almost twice the power. Pick something comparable like VW GTI instead of comparing bicycle to Posche.
@@mychevysparkevdidntcatchfi1489 I own a Kona Electric and I think the Kona EV vs Kona 1.6T is a reasonable comparison. The electric is a bit quicker for sure, but based on 0-100 and quarter mile times, not by that huge of a margin. The EV has more power and torque, but also significantly more mass. Additionally, the EV is only front wheel drive and it's very easy to spin the front wheels if you plant your foot. That's one thing I really wish the Kona EV had - an AWD system to help put more of that power onto the road. The ICE version does have an AWD option, so while the engine may not produce as much torque off the line, the AWD version is probably able to put more torque onto the road. Additionally, I believe Hyundai offers effectively the same set of options outside of the drivetrain, so for comparing price, it's easier to get a similarly spec'd ICE vehicle to more fairly compare price.
Well it all depends on where you are from.
Here in Denmark the Kona electric cost $65292 AUD while the equivalent 1.6 petrol cost $61148 AUD.
Petrol is around $2,28 AUD pr. liter while we pay $0,39 AUD pr. kWh.
I drive around 27.000 km a year so the EV is cheaper after the first year.
Prices distorted by Govt policy. Doesn’t apply to rest of world.
That is just what John said in his opening comments that his video is specific to AUSTRALIA and all others from any other country can watch on. So Australians do not live in Denmark Dah so of course it is different so Open the closed EV ears and listen. Even taking into account English is not your first language
Still one of the only voices online that makes any sense these days. Probably makes sense offline too. Please . . . keep it up. 👍
and Scotty Kilmer
@@bonza167 Absolutely!
If he posted this in 2011 it might make sense. In 2021 it only shows he's years behind current reality. There are now Chinese made short range EVs for $6,000. Soon the big automakers will be selling EVs for the same price as ICE vehicles and even before that happens EVs will outperform ICE in every way from life cost to power to reliability to range to ease of recharging for those who can do it at home. EV owners can create their own electricity on their own property. Try drilling and refining petrol. The ICE age is quickly coming to an end. Try not to miss it.
Yep Only Voice is true, I wonder why that is?
@@ronvandereerden4714 If those short-range EVs are so great, why doesn't someone import them over to Australia, US and EU? My guess is there is some fineprint involved, such as those cars being death traps (like that Reva G-Whiz), having a top speed not adequate for highway driving, or made with abysmal quality. Do those EVs even classify as cars? The term "EV" term was invented precisely because not all car-like electric vehicles imported from places like China and India classify as cars.
For example, the Reva G-Wiz classifies as a quadricycle motorcycle in the EU and as a Neighborhood Electric Vehicle in the US (and does meet the safety requirements of a car in either jurisdiction).
After listening to John ranting on about EV's, it looks like spending $20k on an old XR8 manual was money well spent 😁
Sound a lot better too 😏
I had an Outlander PHEV for 4 years:
- There are definitely annual service intervals.
- These services cost the same as their petrol contemporaries.
- I incurred additional costs on battery testing/balancing that never was required on petrol/Prius.
- Over that time, battery degradation meant that I lost 35% of range - the odo was under 100K. How many diesel and petrols decrease efficiency/range by 20% over 4 years?
- The battery replacement costs are around $26K that will give you 50km range!
- the warranties are less comprehensive and shorter than petrol/diesel cars.
- battery warranties do not appear to cover degradation, only factory defects or total failures.
- There was a significant premium over the diesel and petrol models at the time. It was materially higher than the estimated savings.
As a result of the above - I now drive a diesel.
should have gone full EV then! anything with an engine will cost more
@@dps615 Did you watch this video? Electric engines are not repairable and cost 1/2 much as they car when they brake. Full EV cars destroy the batteries after less than 10 years, they cost like 20-30k. Batteries are made from fossil fuels, we are going into a long term hydrocarbon energy supply crisis, batteries prices are getting more expensive and they're about to get a lot more expensive. EV's and the rapid battery degradation problems means old EV's will be worthless and low income people will be left with no affordable options for a car.
@@tbone5654 I'm not even sure I can even bother replying because your response is so hilarious. You need to do further research on modern day LfP and m3p batteries. Battery costs continue to drop year over year. Now 80% drop in price in less than 10 years. Running costs and maintenance is much less than an equivalent ICE car. When the battery is required (estimated 500,000 miles ) I will have saved enough money to buy a further 3 cars!
@@dps615 Do some h/w kid. Battery prices went down for 10 years but the tide has turned. Prices are up 20% this year already. Oil is on it's way to $200 a barrel thanks to ESG fueled hydrocarbon investment collapse. Battery input costs are exploding and will rocket higher thanks to a decade of under investment in critical minerals and liquid fuel production.
@@tbone5654This is a short term increase. You've seemed to have ignored the fact that the majority of cars makers have committed to going fully electric by 2030. As production is ramped up for EVs price will steadily decrease while ICE vehicles while steadily increase as there is less demand. By 2035 it'll be illegal to sell ICE cars in much of Europe. By then Tesla will be one of the largest car manufacturers in the world.
Why is nobody talking about the replacement cost of the battery packs which sure as hell wont last 9.5 years!!! and the damage being caused by the mining of the materials to make the batteries!! Saving the planet!! I dont think so.
same as many ev's wont be practical or cost worthy to repair and thus get scrapped off resulting in new replacement vehicles having to be made
@@bonza167 q a
Neometals is building recycling plants with a German company to recycle the batteries. 10% of all manufactured batteries don't make the grade and need to be recycled immediately. The only material thats not able to be put back into the production facility immediately is spherical graphite... They were having difficulty recycling the Lithium component of the battery due to its chemical makeup (to similar to magnesium in structure) until the went hydro instead of pyro process... Lithium was being burnt away in previous recycling techniques.
Where do you get your numbers from about not lasting 9.5 years? To the best of my knowledge there's currently no EV old enough to provide that kind of stats. Consequently, predictions range from 8 years pessimistically to 20 years optimistically.
Also, battery lifespan is usually not measured in years, it's measured in charge cycles. Around 1000 cycles is normal for poor-quality batteries. I charge about once a week while working, i.e. ~50 times a year. That's (theoretically!) 20 years lifespan. After 20 years I'd pessimistically expect the battery capacity to drop to ~75%ish percent.
Taking John's Kona as an example. It's advertised as a 64kWh usable battery. In reality, the Kona seems to have about a 72kWh battery. It's unknown whether it applies safety buffers at the top AND bottom end, but it's likely. What does that mean, you ask? Well, while the battery itself would be degraded to 75% after 20 years, as a driver I'd still have ~84% of the original range. That's what the buffers are for. Not all EVs have such buffers, and Tesla for example had them in the beginning but did away with them to "magically" provide more range with a "software update".
That whole argument about "EVs are just as dirty" does get on my nerves a bit. I did a lot of research on it, and frankly EVs are cleaner - still shitty for the environment, but not remotely as bad as oil. At least not yet. I'm sure, humans being humans, we'll get there. While a bit of a propaganda piece (they don't list sources - EDIT: They added sources. Wonders over wonders. Assholes) they're more or less accurate in most points: ruclips.net/video/1oVrIHcdxjA/видео.html
One overly optimistic source about battery lifespans: www.edfenergy.com/electric-cars/batteries
@@wombatdk People forget its the humble tradey that is quietly pushing along the batteries development. Remember nic-cads, nickel metal hydrate, now lithium ion. We started with 9v 1/2 amp. Now 56v 15 amp. Its always improving. KEEP screwing around dudes.
Sometimes, when John is talking, I wish he was brushing my hair.
Me too.
@@AutoExpertJC hehe Hello John!!
@@AutoExpertJC ...I won’t kill today.
@@kane4013 Captain Kirk said that in one episode.
@@markh.6687 😀
Everyone has also conveniently forgotten the 1973 oil crisis when petrol was rationed in AUstralia and long queues would form outside petrol stations. Think that would never happen? History has a tendency of repeating. Australia is completely dependent on OPEC, and if they say jump we would be asking them how high.
Energy security is a great reason to buy an EV. John has already said this on multiple occasions.
@@TheKnobCalledTone. 100%. I just wish Scomo and other pollies would start saying it. And then follow through with some policies, like a modest tax rebate on an EV purchase under $70k, if earning less than $200k/year, massive rollout of charging stations across the regions, and other incentives. Currently Australia's collective energy and transport security has been left up to the individual.
Or the bushfire stranded towns just 13 months ago
Whats more likely, has shortages or blackouts?
@@jebes909090 Importing oil from Saudi Arabia via Singapore and the South China Sea... I can see a couple of issues there. For charging an EV, if you have rooftop solar and a domestic battery, blackouts don't matter. The only problem would be if the Sun went out, but I think we'd have other things on our minds if that happened
Electric car sales have doubled so far this year. Interesting. That's with zero incentives in Australia, one of the few countries in the world to not support EVs, despite it being in our national interest to do so. So clearly Ausralia's citizens know something that our politicians and policy makers (who are busy trying to tax and stifle their uptake any way they can) do not.
Most countries around the world do not have incentives to buy EVs.
@@pattheslut Most developed countries do. I believe Australia is in that category.
@@yggdrasil9039 Why should a small percentage who want to buy an EV be subsidised by the Australian taxpayer,I certainly don't want my taxes going in that direction.
@@pattheslut Because if correctly targetted for people under a certain income and for cheaper EVs only, it would have a net benefit to society, to cleaner air, and to energy and transport security, as well as support the transition to EVs away from OPEC dependence, and not cost the taxpayer very much at all, a tiny fraction of 1% compared to Coronavirus handouts. It also means that Australian economy is being supported rather than foreign oil companies, to the tune of $49B a year. Currently you are already subsidising OPEC every time you fill up at the bowser.
@@pattheslut Not only are your taxes sponsoring the petrol industry (and the car industry when they were still alive insisting to build cars that not enough people wanted), you and I are also sponsoring the mining industry.
Yes you and I are indirectly giving hard earned cash to Gina Rinehart... So I don’t know about you but I’d rather sponsor the future instead of a filthy rich horrible person.
Thank you for saying damper rather than shock absorber.
You're welcome - especially as it's the springs that really absorb the shocks, and the tyres.
Back in the boot ya dags
Spending 25k more in advance to start "saving it" in a timeframe of at least 10 years is indeed some special logic. 🤭
If EVs weren't so heavily subsidized in many states nobody would buy them.
why are they even subsidized. did anyone even ask us about if we want such a thing? i'd appreciate more road and other infrastructure repairs. no one cares about no silly electric cars.
I think people would buy them. There are plenty of Tesla Models S and X out there on the road. Not sure how the subsidies work where you live, but here they don't qualify for subsidies because of their high price. There are plenty of reasons to buy an EV which have nothing to do with saving money, just like there are plenty of reasons to buy a Pagani that have nothing to do with saving money. Anyone who has the means to buy one and who's done their homework knows both that an EV is not a cost-saving endeavour and why they actually want to buy one.
@@guyva_unito_sree3 I'm not sure if you've noticed this, but governments do an awful lot of things without asking you first. ;)
Fossil fuels, and therefore ICE vehicles, are the most heavily subsidized industries in the world. EV subsidies and incentives don't even come close and never will.
The real big subsides are going to the fossil fuel companies. From the direct tax breaks to the hidden subsidies of military expenditure to support the fossil fuel industry to the massive subsidy of being able to externalise their pollution costs, they are the money grubbers here.
Great analysis as always Caddo.
I'm a 70-year-old Aussie battler, we bought a low mileage 2nd hand 2011 MB B200 Anniversary in 2013 & only clock up a mere 7000km/year. It's been surprisingly cheap to own & maintain, it needed a new battery, everyone said it'd cost AQU$800 but it was AU$500, not bad for a 9-year-old car (at the time).
The services (1/year) have been far less than we were paying for our previous BMWs, we've never had to leave the car there overnight & the customer service is exceptional.
There's no way we're going Tesla, the change-over price would exceed AU$60K & I have some serious health issues. I consider myself a considerate husband so when I take my final exit, I don't want to leave my wife with an expensive maintenance nightmare. Sheesh, it's crap in the US, I'd hate to think what it'd be here in Shitsville SA. 😳
Its great to listen to someone with a good intellect and common sense, thanks john i really do appreciate you advice and analysis. Thanks john.
No worries, Santill - thanks for being such a regular viewer.
@@AutoExpertJC Your welcome john.
I love personal vehicles as much as anyone, but government transportation subsidies should be for free at the point of use transit for everyone, not to help rich people buy luxury vehicles. I have no desire to trade my car for a bus pass but no one should be left out on the kerb because they can't afford to pay to get to their next job interview.
If you add compound interest onto the $31k then the break even point is even further out
eraf2135: Do you get interest free loans for buying ICE cars?
@@altond511 ha, I wish. What I mean is if I take a loan for the EV which is $31k more, then I will pay more interest on it compared to equivalent loan for the ICE car.
Same applies to a cash purchase. The 31k saved will be earning interest for 10 years (if I don't spend it on other fun things obviously)
@@eraf2135 Huh?
@@eraf2135 Yep. Modelling needs to be undertaken via Discounted Cashflow Analysis. JC is bang on.
Unique style and humorous commentary! U get the point across, we get independently informed, and we can also enjoy a laugh. Well done John, keep it coming! 👍
Geeze, I didn't know everything I bought had to save money...
It would be the only reason I can think of to purchase a EV and even then I would still pay more to drive a petrol one.
@@ericdolby1622 have you ever driven an EV? I'm guessing not. Except for a few high performance cars, Petrol sucks compared to EV as a driving experience.
@@ericdolby1622 of course you would. why would anyone want a comfortable and quiet car, right?
@@jeffberwick yes a model 3 but this was several years ago. I'm just not into them. I really don't care for nanny systems and I didn't like the absence of character or soul. They just don't do anything for me. On top of that the expense and the annoyance of charging since I can't do it from my home. Just nah. I love the technology behind a sweet sounding petrol motor and rowing through the gears. Plus Teslas are ugly and supposedly they are the benchmark. Which is laughable.
@@ericdolby1622 I get it. I also like manual transmissions and a sweet high revving engine. But a lot of V-8 car guys like the fastest EVs. It's great to have stealth 1-G acceleration in compete silence. The looks stuff is always subjective. I happen to like the looks of Model 3 and Model S. In terms of range , charging , and performance the Teslas are definitely the benchmark.
Might add up to date trends are adding cripple ware to cars like apple did by slowing down old iphones claiming it preserves old batteries, like in recent times you miss a payment on that new EV someone at HQ flicks a switch and it no longer runs, has already happened.
The Benz with the faulty motor probably just needed a $20 set of bearings. Unfortunately no one is game enough to have a go and the dealer certainly will rather sell you a new motor than a new set of bearings.
@Alfred Wedmore www.skf.com/au/news-and-events/news/2019/2019-05-17-customised-and-hybrid-bearings-solve-fundamental-issues-in-electric-vehicles
Ceramic balls
SKF: "Switching conventional steel balls for their ceramic equivalent, to make a so-called hybrid bearing, is a recognised way of solving this problem, because the ceramic balls are naturally insulating. However, due mainly to their higher cost, only a small number of EV designers incorporate hybrid bearings in their designs.
At SKF, we estimate that only around 5% of bearings in these applications are hybrid ones. Typically, these hybrid bearings have only been specified because of the earlier failure of steel bearings in these applications. Very few EV designers specify hybrid bearings from the beginning, but we see that this is beginning to change."
EVs have permanent magnet motors. There is about 1mm air gap between the rotor and the stator.
The magnets are embedded in the rotor so you will not damage the magnets if the rotor rubs.
For all intents and purposes they are like a standard 5kw induction motor.
Getting to the bearings is relatively easy. As long as the owner stopped driving the car when the noise started there shouldn't be any substantial damage to the motor.
As for burnt out stator, it is extremely unlikely because the inverter makes sure it never gets past a certain temperature and rewinding one is just like rewinding a standard induction motor. (I know because I have rewound an EV motor to get more power) so I can tell you that changing those bearings would not have been any more difficult than changing the bearing clutch on a manual transmission.
And I have also repaired some WV inverters (not even $100 for the parts) and done some battery upgrades/replacements.
Right now it is expensive because not many people know how to repair them. As there are more around everyone will learn what to do and will become the same as any ICE car repair.
The website hasn't appeared for sometime. I guess we all know where to go when the time comes. Looking forward to it someday!
but John u didn't factor in the amount of self satisfaction every EV owner loves telling the whole world about
It should be factored in. If one think the premium is worth it is free to pay
Probably can't hear you over the 6pm ratting of scuttles as Reg and Barry start chucking more coal on the fire to charge up them city kids cars every evening
With EV costs you forgot to mention a lot of people get loans to buy cars. They will need to factor the extra interest paid on the larger loan they took to afford their EV
for me £500 interest was half a years fuel in UK
"whining like an auditorium filled with ex-wives" 😂
Can you imagine that unholy sound?
It's on every night at the recital hall in hell...
HSE/OSHA requires hearing protection in such an environment.
Hence the high price to get rid of the whining 😀
@@ScottMurrayBestFamilyCars ughhh, I shutter to think...
Autralia is really fucked up, crazy. Govt incentives are here to offset the environmental and human cost of combustion cars. EVs need service, but over lifetime, only about 1/3 of an equivalent ICE.
Once again you made the difference by this exquisite review John! Very detailed with lots of measurable evidence and figures that noone can easily deny! Thank you for the impartial and objective approach!
EVs will be like "premium" german cars: when they get to 10 years old, the prices fall off a cliff because of high maintenance (battery and power electronics on EVs) prices. The difference is, it'll apply to all EVs, not just the "premium" ones
Ten-year-plus Tesla Model S are still going strong, they just need new tyres. No high maintenance on power electronics or drive train.
@@manicdee983 ,I wasn't referring to Teslas specifically. I like their cars' specs, but not their business model, so won't be buying one, and consider their quality faults to be growing pains. Teslas have a decent amount of overprovisioning, others are unknown, but there is a growing number of cases of failing batteries, and Tesla (and others) just quote you a new battery. You know how much they cost, and if you can't find an independent specialist (which will still cost a few $1000), you're left with scrap. Power inverters have been known to fail in brands known for their reliability, and they cost as much as a new ICE. Many people can only afford cars costing less than any of those repairs, and if things don't change, they'll be playing russian roulette when buying an old EV. Electronics have a U shaped fail curve, and you can't do preventive maintenance, like a cam belt change, so once you pass the engineered fail date it's a lottery, and nobody knows what they chose (remember the Tesla boards failing because the SSD ran out of write cycles?)
Best vid yet John.
This issue of price is THE issue with EVs.
I love the concept, the tech, the whole 'I can charge it off the house and avoid looking for a bowser'..... but I'll be buggered if I'm going to pay one third or twice as much as an ICE car that will do the exact ssame job!
Great to see someone using actual facts and logic 👌
It still amazes me that some people drive only 15,000km per year.
Didnt Jay Leno sayd he havent done any maintenance on his old tesla s ?
That he daily drives.
While spending a lot on maintemance on ice cars he doesent even drive
9 years to break even? what state, or how many battery packs will be needed by then?
A decent battery 9with good cooling and management design) should last more than 10.
@@AutoExpertJC , thanks.
heard via my father that a UK Prius-owning taxi driver had to replace the battery after 6 years. Hence my question.
@@kathrynwhitby9799 Taxis live a more demanding life than most cars so a reduction in life makes sense.
@@33jtm33 thanks.
Factor in the cost of a new battery every seven years or so and the gap is even wider. EV's may someday be economically competitive with the old internal combustion engine but at the moment they are not even close.
7yr old LEAF still got 12/12 here.
@@xlphos You are doing well, hope you get a couple more years out of it.
Batteries don't just fail like in a mobile phone or laptop, they degrade over time. I'd be pretty happy to have even half the range after 15 years, I only drive 125 kms at a time
@@lindam.1502 The original Tesla batteries are constructed with a large bank of 18650 Li cells, Panasonic cells to be exact, I have been using the very same cells plus many other brands of the same cell for the past dozen years or so. Laptops also use the same batteries. My experience with these cells is that the very best ones, like the Panasonic, maintain close to full charge capabilities for four or five years then lose about 50% on the sixth year and are finished by year seven. Tesla is now using a slightly larger cell but the construction is the same. Some manufacturers are using batteries specifically designed for cars, hopefully these will last a little longer but if someone has told you 15 years is possible you should ask for a written warranty.
Tesla = 8 year warranty on battery.
Sorry for you guys in Australia. California is an entirely different matter. For example, I just bought a Model 3 Performance, which included: a $5,000 grant for my income bracket, $2,000 toward installing a home charger (or a $1,000 card to use on supercharging), $2,500-$4,500 rebate - again depending on income, $1,000 rebate from my local electric utility, and, finally, a $3000 rebate from the San Joaquin Valley environmental authority. So, in total, I was given $13,500-$15,500 in incentives, not to mention a discounted electric rate for charging my car at home. Moreover, all the rebates apply to my second Tesla, a Model Y. So I still save an additional $6,500-$8,500 on my second EV. The Federal government is also thinking of bringing back the $7,500 tax credit incentive... Couple that with my driving about 250 miles a day, which work reimburses me for at $0.55/mile - which was costing me about $40/day at $2.90/gallon minimum (now up to $4.05/gallon) out of pocket, I'd be a monumental fool not to buy the EV's. Also, the insurance rates seem to be about 15% cheaper (likely due to their superior safety profile). I realize California is a special case. But, it is the reality I find myself in and am taking full advantage of!
With the amount of private solar systems around Australia ever increasing and battery storage becoming cheaper for home users, is there not a huge potential for saving on charging your own electric vehicle from your own stored energy?
Listen to this discussion again. John clearly shows that even with free electricity the argument for an EV based on running costs is irrational.
I'm not saying he is incorrect about any of the overall Purchasing, Servicing etc.
I'm interested in charging savings side of it in the long term. There are thousands of people who have had solar systems for quite a few years now and whos system will already have paid itself off in the money saved on their general electricity use long ago. So if you then do most of your charging whilst the sun is out or even say 20% of a charge which probably keeps most city folk topped topped up daily for a standard work week, wouldn't that mean a big yearly saving, week on week year on year in general?
Considering a solar system say has a hopeful life length of say 15 to 25 years wouldn't that mean the next car purchased would have a free portion to its running life you might not of otherwise had?
Hi Troy, I was an early adopter of Solar panels troy and receive 52c for every Kw I put back into the grid. I have a fixed price rate of $38 cents per Kw I use from the grid, so in my case, it would be better to send my excess electricity from my panels to the grid, so I earn more and charge an EV at night time, I have no cheaper night-time rate like some people do.
We need to start somewhere john, unfortunately any new tech has early adopter tax.
Do we really , new tech is not always all it is made to be , in the end it is replacing one thing with another for what is for the most part the a very slightly different device(a car with more gadgets and a different power unit ) for almost the same result with a higher cost with its own set of pros and cons just like the current ones , and make no mistake the cost will be higher for the community monetarily. ..
Agreed. Those taking the early hit are doing good work for the rest of us. Can't blame the early adopters for wanting to think they're saving a bob or two. ICE is on the way out, it may take many years, but there will be plenty more squirming, such as this, from a dying technology as it fades into the history books. I love my CV8, but there's no stopping progress. Cars today and unimaginative, and quite frankly a big pile of twat, at least this is injecting some innovation into the space.
Let's not forget the cost of a replacement battery.
You'll never need a replacement battery...
Just a quick note on home charging, if you have control load 2, charging will cost 10-11c/kWh or if you have time of use around 15c/kWh. Since most people will be charging overnight, doesn't matter if the car is fully charged by 9pm or 6am, other paying a high energy bill. The numbers change significantly to 1.8c/KM (averaged at 13c kWh). On top of that there are many free chargers available at shopping centres and destination chargers as well (Tesla is way ahead of the others here).
I wouldn’t mind betting they will find a way of metering the charging port and taxing it accordingly.
I wonder how tires hold up on EV's. Every time I'm at a stop light they tend to really take off (exerting that instant torque). Tires are green... right?
yes, then we have the problem with regenerating braking. it is really hard on the tyres.
@@ursodermatt8809 « Regen is really hard on the tyres »??? Where did you pull that research from?
I have a Kona EV. Have chosen to never rotate my tyres as the original Nexen are notoriously bad, and I wanted to replace them ASAP.
After 50’000km, my rear tyres are obviously in very good condition (about 75% left) and the front ones still have about 10% left on them. One possible reason people mention for the surprising lack of EV tyre wear despite the torque is the smoothness of the acceleration and deceleration.
@@EVdownUnder
yeah, well, i was facetious.
after 45.000km my front and back tyres seem to have the same depth of profile on my ioniq.
The biggest roadblock to EV adoption isn't range, price or recharge times. It's the stigma of being lumped in with EV evangelists.
Then that would be true for 4wd's as well mate. I dont want a off road wanking chariot and certainly dont want to be lumped in with them. Seeing as you have to have a lobotomy to be allowed to own 1 now days. :)
Wrong
He hasn't figured in cost of lodging; what do I mean? Say you drive to wedding, vacay, or business call somewhere and there is brownout or blackout, if you're stuck there you'll need hotel lodging til you can recharge
@@warshrike666 True.
That is an irrational argument since it is based on feelings. Poor diddums.
Good reason to be up at 4 am. Yesss!
Ayy Perth squad
Is there ever a bad one? Nooooooooo!
Good reason to watch at 20.50. In 🏴. Yesssss!
Rooftop solar? Great idea, coming home from work in the evening, plugging my electric car into my solar system and enjoying free recharging... at night.
I work 3 days a week. Works for me
you do realise while you are at work you have made $ exporting to the grid to offset your night time use.
@@stuartmarshall7099 C'mon, they buy your electrons at 8 cents/kwhr and sell it to you at retail (30 cents/kwhr). Hardly a game changer for charging your EV.
Also, in countries that don't have Aussie's fantastic sun figures, your rooftop is not going to be of much use during winter. My off grid system of 10kw PV produces only 2KW for an entire day mid winter low cloud. about 25% of winter for me....
@@Motumatai3 solar panels Tiger. No energy’s bill. Only rained twice this winter. More sun in winter than summer.
John you are absolutely right...God bless you !
We are living in a petrochemichal world, and I'm a pertrochemichal girl.
Gives new meaning to the following "Life in plastic, it's fantastic" lyrics
Hmm, you might be so more than you think. Micro plastics have turned up in the placenta of new born infants.
I've been a train driver (railroad engineer - 'murica) for 40 years and have driven diesel and electric trains and locos. You could say I've spent more time comparing EV v ICE designed to do the exact same job than almost anyone on Earth. In my opinion, electric wins hands down every time from a driver's point of view. Almost no noise, no vibration, no fumes, nothing much to check at the servicing bay (cab water, compressor oil, brake shoes), and no range anxiety because they get their power from overhead wires. The company loves them too because almost no heavy maintenance needs doing. No diesel engine to rebuild every so often, don't need fuel facilities and all that goes with it (having fuel trucked in, someone to do the fuelling, etc.) That said, NSW and VIC railways have withdrawn all their electric locos and replaced them with diesels. Why? Because of the cost of aforementioned overhead wires. It costs a fortune to build them and plenty to maintain them. The locos themselves would be no more expensive and are probably a little cheaper than a diesel but that's still not enough to make them worthwhile. Just like two otherwise identical cars, the electric will accelerate much quicker and for this reason, they're great for city stop-start work which is why you see them in passenger service in Sydney and Melbourne. Adelaide and Perth are now electrifying their city lines but have no plans to go beyond that. Even the railways of the Pilbara like Rio Tinto, BHP and FMG which make money hand over fist can't justify the start up cost of electric. I'm sure they've done the sums and concluded that it's cheaper to put diesel fuel into their locos a tank full at a time for many decades rather than put up overhead wiring across the entire system all at once. I'm a petrolhead who owns a Ford Econoline with a 460ci V-8 and I'm building a hot rod, a 1930 Model A with a blown V-12 Jag engine but for general running around I'd take an electric any day of the year. I won't be any time soon though because like the railways I've worked for, I can't justify the start up cost. I put solar panels on my house which I expect to break even on in around 2-3 years but that's a lot different to 25 years. If it were 25 years for the solar panels, I would not have bought them. It's very simple, really.
Excellent comment. Large mining equipment (shovels?) used to be electric. I don't know if that is still the case. The electrification of Perth railways was, and is very successful. It might have contributed to increased passenger rail numbers. Perth is very sprawled and electric rail (my guess) is probably the only option. I am an ex petrolhead (2 smoke, blue stroke) but if I inherit, my next car will be an EV. What is the start up cost of building a Model A blown V-12? Just kidding, not everything needs to be justified.
@@rf7477 2 strokes eh? I always wanted a Suzuki GT-750 but never bought one. Also have a fantasy about putting a boat engine (say a Yamaha V-8) into a bike. Start up cost of hot rod is a fair question. The answer is a friend gave me a 1980 Daimler Sovereign that was rusted beyond belief but mechanically OK for free so start up cost was $100 trailer rental to pick it up. Oh, and the petrol my Ford 460 used. Speaking of petrol, I once owned an XD 302 and thought about putting it on gas. I went to a gas place and they gave me a calculation to do. How many kms do I drive per year? How many km/l does the car do? At current petrol prices, what does that cost? I gave them the answer. They told me what the gas conversion would cost and the likely economy of running on gas. You subtract one from the other and that's how many kms you have to drive to break even, Now, how long will it take to do that? I didn't do it and lucky I didn't as I sold the car around a year later. That said, I'll investigate running the Model A on gas as a 6.0 crank with 5.3 heads produces huge compression. I'd need 98 petrol (bordering on methanol). LPG can produce a ton of power in an engine that's specially built for it but I'm not sure it's as widely available as it was back in the day. Maybe E85 is the go. We'll see.
@@davidrayner9832 Ah, just sold my last water bucket. My RD 350 Yammy was a true giant killer in it's day. I sometimes wish Yamaha made cars. Is it true that Volvo uses the yamaha V8? If you like bikes, look up Allen Millyard on YT. Brilliant and funny, ie English eccentric. I now own a tiny and ageing Suzuki 4WD and it is actually going up in value! All the best.
How about the insurance for a vehicle that costs 25k more to replace?
"Inconvenient truth" I get that EV's are a good idea for city air quality, but they're still to expensive for me to justify it.
Insurance is a complete ripoff at the moment. That's why Tesla offer their own.
$300 more than my current vehicle per year to insure
@Alfred Wedmore that's why it pays to do your homework and weigh up the pros and the cons.
don't know about insurance where you are but here in UK mine went down when checking for an i3. insurance co logic though.
Very informative as always. Thank you John, really enjoyed this particular video!
Clickbaity title, leaves out "in Australia", fair game i guess, does explain in video.
So in the end we find a story of crazy repair price for niche mercedes EV (less than 5000 out there?). Okay here's another example.
My EV age - 9 years, driven distance - 340 000km, reductor oil change - 2 times(around 150k and at 330k)(50€), brake fluid - every 3 years, pads 4-5 years, air filter - each year(diy, 10€).
AC/heatpump - never needed maintenance.
This is the case for most owners.
Like the post he presented in video, it is quite easily close to 2/3 less of a maintenance. Totally free? nope. Thats why it's usually sentenced like "practically maintenance free" - compared to ice car.
EU electricity cost, with market plan - easily makes my night time charges cost 0.5-1.5€ per 100km.(0.8-2.4€ per 100mile)
Given how cheap solar is and how nutty your kwh price is, I would definitely have rooftop solar in Australia. And he said "31 thousand bucks out front" - why? Doesnt car leasing exist in Australia? And can't you get financing from bank for solar installation? Call it home renovation or whatever. Why out front?
And why buy new, you can get so much better deals for 3 year old EV's and still lease them.
But hey, maybe this is the la-la land i'm in! :) Wish it was warmer and more sunnier here.
And of course, EV prices will change a lot in next 5 years. I hope things get better for aussies too.
Great report as ever. Thanks.
Will have a read of the Electric article. Am still trying to get my head around your line from yesterday “chef reach around “. Very entertaining. Cheers!
You haven't lived until you've tried 'chef reach around'.
@@AutoExpertJC you should see what Chef Reach Around does even he gets his hands on some plump fresh chorizo
@@AutoExpertJC have you tasted any of Chef Reach Around’s _pulled pork_ ??
Even the manufacturers don’t think everything through. They are responding to a perceived want of EVs by the public without having the infrastructure to carry the load. Putting the cart before the horse comes to mind.
The car industry always delivers the product first - look at FCEV.
@@AutoExpertJC I was talking about FCEVs just this morning. In 'Merica, General Motors used to loan them out to people to drive for two weeks and see how they liked them. I’d pass one on the road every now and again on my morning commute. This was about 20 years ago.
Figures don’t lie but liars figure. My spread sheet and many other SS on line show that the Total Cost of Ownership ($/mile at the end of ownership) is much lower for EVs. Mine is so much cheaper than my three pronged suppository diesel even with a $2500 maintenance charge. Being retired and not driving much, about 2500 miles a year, my biggest hit is depreciation.
Depreciation is the single biggest car expense... People overlook this because they don't understand it. 🙄
John,
It was a pleasure to watch your critiques of Electric Vehicles (EV), and I appreciate the mention of our company, QC Charge. We are actually located in San Diego county, California USA, approximately 500 miles (800 km) south of San Francisco. Most cars that we repair or modify are shipped to our shop. We have received cars from as far away as Norway.
Like any one to two ton machine rolling down a street, things will wear out and break in any vehicle, regardless of the type of energy used to propel it. An EV is no exception, however, the EV will always be lower cost to own over time,
Using energy costs, an EV wins by a large margin. Cars that are the size of a Hyundai Kona EV consume electricity at a rate of approximately 4 miles / 6.5 km per kWh of electricity., therefore using the local cost of electricity can determine the fuel / energy cost per mile / km, plus the total “lifetime” energy cost at 100,000 miles / 160,000 km:
-------- USA -- Australia
--- ELECTRICITY COSTS ---
kWh cost -- $0.12 --- $0.28
Cost / mile - $0.03 --- $0.07
Cost / km - $0.018 -- $0.043
Lifetime -- $3000 --$7000
--PETROLEUM FUEL COST -
Consumption rate
30 mpg / 8 L/100 km
Litre-----$0.66 --- $1.30
US gallon - $2.50 ---$4.92
Cost / mile - $0.083 --- $0.164
Cost / km - $0.052 --- $0.103
Lifetime -- $8320 --$16480
EV savings - $5320 --$9480
Generally speaking, an EV will have far lower maintenance costs than any petroleum car.
Thanks,
Tony Williams
QC Charge
Electric Vehicle Super Center
1497 Poinsettia, Suite 154
Vista, California 92081 USA
QCcharge.com
+1-844-EV-PARTS
+1-844-387-2787
+1-760-798-0342
Hours M-F, 9-5 Pacific Time
Excellent. Good data, well presented. Thankyou.
Using your albeit super generous estimates, that means that the MG ZS EV would pay itself back after 3.5 years over the top spec petrol MG version (~$11,000 difference.) That's not a bad payback period. From then on, again using your figures, you're saving three and half grand a year. That's based on prices right now and a purchase decision right now. I'd say that was a pretty good deal, as long as you can cope with the 270km range of the EV between charging stations, which is viable for some regional NSW trips at the moment, but not all.
For a Chinese built vehicle the Mediocre Garage ZS EV is damn expensive here in Thailand at 1.190.000 baht which is about Au$52,700. www.mgcars.com/en/mg-models/new-mg-zs-ev/price Add in the fact the only charger is 100Km away to the North and 160km South if the home charger fails we couldn't go very far!
@@hyballs Wow I wonder why so much more expensive in Thailand? In Australia I've tried to find out why the Tesla Model3 SR+ is so much more expensive than in the US and China, but no-one can tell me, not even Tesla Australia.
@@hyballs
well, you might need some donkeys at your place then.
@@hyballs If your home charger fails, you plug into an ordinary domestic socket. But then, you already knew that.
The top Spec is 18K Lower not 11K. 43,990 - 25,990 = $18000
Of course if you wanted to actually save money on the MG ZS you'd just get the base model and save 22K.
So that would take 7 year's to reach break even. Still not bad too bad but how many new car buyers keep a car after 7 years? I'd suggest the one's blowing 43K on a car are unlikely to ever see cost savings because they'd sell it and buy a new one before then.
You are so spot on! Thank you. Even here in Merica your facts are solid.
The ICE minge: hot, greasy and noisy. Just how you like it.
Some like it hot 'n greasy... electric cars have been around since the 1900s.
@@mael-strom9707 Yep. I use a battery (lithium) razor that is at least 12 years old. It won't die. I fear it will now outlive me.
At least with ICE I get real heat and AC. Green Weenies are idiots.
@@mael-strom9707 Earlier, actually. The first electric cars were built in the 1880s.
Good video John.
Interestingly my local supermarket complex (Castle Plaza in South Oz) has installed a massive solar panel array which includes free to use 415 volt EV charge stations. Supposedly a customer draw card, to which you would expect rabid money saving EV geeks would be drawn like flies to the proverbial, but I have yet to see an EV at any station during my quite regular visits.
My conclusion is that while there is a lot of noise about how wonderful EV's are, the numbers are very thin on the ground. The vast majority of road users have obviously crunched the numbers and are not so sure ;)
Numbers? Vehicles seem to last 12 to 18 years. So why should it not take me 6 years to react to offered free charging? BTW I fear my electric plans couldn't cope with the Voltage offered by your supermarket.
Hey John the running cost calculations have already been done, check out the pdf at www.racq.com.au/cars-and-driving/cars/owning-and-maintaining-a-car/car-running-costs. On average an electric car will never pay itself back, unless comparing to a large SUV or 4WD. Depreciation and interest / opportunity cost are massive on any new car and especially electric cars. If you want to save money buy a 5k corolla and run it until it dies (to about 500k) then repeat. If you're seeking status or fake moral virtue then electric cars might suit.
You'll never get invited to a BBQ with the Jones' if you drive the crappy 5k corolla lol.
Run it till it dies, then buy a 2nd hand, low KM engine from Japan (usually 10,000km) for about $500 and $500 fitting....and go again
Very good & true analysis. Spot on!
I agree with your financial assessment except that you left out the sale value of the ev at the end. This is a fact and you don't have to like it... Yessssss...😁
resale value drops like a sinking rock; no idea what you're talking about lol plus damn things arent cheap to begin with. no savings anywhere.
@@guyva_unito_sree3
your intelligence is sinking like .......?
UK story, value of used Zoe's where around 4k in 2014 same one now older are around the 6k mark... deprecation.
Awesome, JC!
FYI, Prof. John Kelly @ weberU recently tore down a Model S drive train. He specifically discusses the rotor bearings and how they addressed the conductivity issue on the bearing innards. I believe it was a 2016 or 2018 model. Interesting shite, actually. Cheers!
It was a 2016. My car exactly!
The engine designer at Tesla is not Elon Musk, but Konstantinos Laskaris.
elon didnt invent anything new, he's just a business man. nikola tesla practically invented the world we have today lol and elon doesnt even like nikola tesla and i dont like elon because he pits nikolas name on that junk car of his.
Musk isn't even the initial founder - that's Eberhard and Tarpenning.
Musk came on board almost a year later though provided a large chunk of the funding.
Not only replacement engines. I mate if mine was given a brand new Kona after the battery was recalled. His plug in hybrid also had a battery failure just outside warranty a $12000 replacement cost. Mitsubishi did a goodwill replacement. What then happens to all the batteries and stuffed cars after 10 or so years. Some extra costs to factor in. I have driven a Kona electric and it went very well. I quite enjoyed it. What turned me off was the long charge time and watching the battery range deplete when you turned the heater or a/c or lights on.
I’m buying the Ioniq 5. It looks great.
Best looking, I love the lights.
Great video. Keep em coming
Yesterday I went to a busy underground car park. It stunk.
yeah people underemphasize and underestimate the vast difference between pollution free and breathing in vast quantities of myriad different poisons and toxins. Its obscene.
Its most likely the drunks & homeless using it as a toilet !
@@weinisable Nope. Its locked at night. Did you know the air in New Delhi is officially toxic?
One of the most entertaining videos I've watched lately. John has a way with words, and a very entertaining one, I will add. Facts and entertainment!
When anything electrical malfunctions we toss it in the trash and buy another one, I imagine EV's will be treated in the same fashion.
Is there a battery repair/maintenance cycle for EVs? That would be an additional cost
I have stumbled on to an Elon sceptic channel on YT called "Common Sense Skeptics".
always good to see people who dont automatically jump on bandwagons and want to know the facts
This was AMAZING!! Especially the end!! 😆😂😂😂😂
Typical nutbag: "EV's are far superior in every way."
Me: "pushrods go brrrrrrr!"
200k later.... "pushrods go brrrrr"
300,000 k`s or more if you have a good one .
Any thought of repair would disappear overnight if recycling was perfected?
I do 50000kms per year of driving that is 100% ideal for what EVs do..... Makes it a bit more viable.... I wounder what the working life of a kona EV is?
On the battery, these EV li-ion batteries can be expected to last around 1000 cycles. If the car does 400 km per battery charge, it's reasonable to assume a battery lifetime of 400,000km before degradation really eats into range and performance. Usage effects this, you can greatly extend battery cycle life by reducing depth of discharge, and you can accelerate degradation if you only use DC fast charging. As for the motors, who knows. It stands to reason that an electric motor should last for longer than an engine, it has fewer wearable parts, and it doesn't vibrate constantly, but it probably comes down mostly to the quality of manufacturing. The motor+transmission assemblies for electric cars are actually cheaper than the engine+transmission of an ICE car, so in the event of needing a replacement it isn't enormously costly to do a motor swap.
@@0hypnotoad0 I did notice that when ever tesla where talking about the batterys with 250k miles they where very fast to point out that they did very little fast charging or outside of 20%-80% capacity...
@@mcduck5 plenty of videos on YT of Tesla rental companies whose cars have done 500k miles and been mostly supercharged, and the battery is still fine
@@mark123655 I wouldn't want to rely on it in anything other than a tesla lol
Agreed. Great report.
I really love it when they quote ICE followed by Engines. That make it an engine engine or perhaps twice as thirsty.
Hey! I own one of those "engine engine" Hemi equipped Jeeps and I must agree with you that it's twice as thirsty.
First channel I have come across that actually point's out service cost's of EV's 👍👍
Just a curious ICE car owner 🤔🤔
I’m also economically irrational. I’m a human. Male version of human. Residing in GranBritannia. End of report.
Good content.
Still got to love EV owners, they pull out every trick in the book to make it sound like they save $$$. Reality is they haven’t but they have an aura of Static around them which is quite funny 🔌
I thought the aura was somehow related to bovine solid and gas emissions.
It's the same irrationalism that some car owners employ when they drive 100km to fill up the tank because it's 0.2c/litre cheaper somewhere else.
If you're comparing Kona gasser that's dirt slow to hot-hatch Kona EV, why not compare to bicycle that's even cheaper? Fact is, Kona EV is on different level performance, and it should be compared to similar cars like VW GTI. In that, Kona EV is way cheaper.
@@sheerluckholmes5468 Irrational are those who compare Kona EV 200 HP (like VW GTI) to dirt slow Kona gasser. Bicycle is even cheaper, but no one compares such different performing vehicles.
@@mychevysparkevdidntcatchfi1489 But what about the usable driving distance difference of the GTI vs. said Kona? Not everybody is racing or even leaving their tires/tyres at the stop sign in the real world, so "off the line" performance is hardly important.
Mate. One of your best! Keep up the great work.
BULLSHIT!!! I call shenanigan! Your a smart guy JC, so lets say all your numbers are correct. Kona is a large SUV and there are many more EV options that are cars, cars that don't have a $25,000 difference between the ICE and the EV. Some may have a $10,000 variance or even less. Many EVs consume less KWH when driven, than compared to the Kona. Petrol is, has, will, get more and MORE expensive as more people switch to EVs and oil companies want to get as much $ as possible for themselves. The rate of petrol at the pump is increasing exponentially. What are the hard numbers on maintenance of the Kona EV vs the Kona 1.6, over a 10 year period? As Hyundai gave you the vehicle, I am sure you could also get the dealer service quotes for each service interval. Batteries are going down in price, so there is that. Sounds like you did the numbers on 1 vehicle and said no economic rational for every vehicle of every brand, and to that I would say....... bullshit! Also what rate of defect is there in EV vehicles compared to ICE vehicles? Any brand can have a issue arise but where is it more prevalent? No EVs are not perfect as they are in the process of entering the mas market, so with time there will be infrastructure, for service and maintenance as needed for these vehicles, but sounds like you want things to be 100% perfect today, and all based on 1 expensive vehicle! Common John, you are smarter that that.
What is the $$$ difference on the Kona scheduled service. ICE vS EV. I tried to find it on their website and failed.
We have been running our EV for 120.000km from 2013-2019. We also had a ICE car at the same time going 100.000km. I had to keep track of all costs as it was used partially for work. The running cost of the EV was about 65% lower than the ICE cost. Certainly not "no-maintanace", but you can actually do more stuff yourself than before.
About the break-usage. Of the original 12mm break-pads after 120.000km there were still 9mm left. I think if properly designed a breaking system for an EV could last the entire car-life. The hardening of the pads will be the limiting factor, not the abrasion.
Repairing Batteries will be a big business in a couple of years. Usually you can fix a battery pack for a fraction of the cost of a replacement from the OEM. My fried got his old Leaf battery fixed and expanded by 50% for 45% less then the replacement from Nissan. However he had to drive to the Netherlands to get it done.
You pay more for the car initially and you're going to pay a large bill when that battery needs to be changed. That will wipe your smug smile off your face.
Many years ago, whilst working as a fitter, a common job was replacing the bearings in electric motors.
On what?
@@lindam.1502 Extruders, Injection moulders, Cooling fans in cooling towers, air compressors (big ones), boiler ventilation motors. compounding mills, plastificators and so on. Some of these motors required notifying the power provider before starting up.
They forgot forthcoming battery replacement in years to come...more than the car's worth.
...Tesla EV batteries are lasting longer than the cars...Watch out for the type of battery management system!!
Nice work again John. not too often i get the time to sit down and check your channel out but always worth it when i do mate!
IT'S all about emissions, sooner or later we are all going to pay. People forget the lunatics have taken over the asylum.
It all depends on how your electricity is generated.
Other than Tassie (Hydro) most of Australia's electricity is produced by using Coal or Gas, the current Federal Government's preferred option.
Dear John, One thing (I think) you forgot to include in the calculations is the lost interest on the increased up-front cost of an EV and solar array. Long term investments commonly make 8-10% a year, and I don't pay any tax on my superannuation increases. I can't be bothered working it out over 10+ years but in the first year it's almost enough to pay for the petrol and maintenance costs you allowed.😁