THORIN dismantles their argument (AWP Discussion with Thorin, Lurppis, Semmler and Pimp)
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- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2024
- Tweet asks what should be changed about the AWP towards Thorin, Lurppis, Semmler and Pimp. Thorin gives his opinions about what should be changed about the AWP while at the same time dismantling the other arguments. Enjoy!
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"At valve HQ - We gotta stop Smithz and Pimp!" LMAO!
Jakob Levin who's pimp?
@@gavinheggie3938 aw that hurt pimp deep cuz its true
Gavin Heggie the bloke wearing glasses in the video
instaBlaster
I think the pure fact that kennyS will often use an ak on t sides, even with the economy shows that the AWP isn't the "best" gun in the game.
I love how apparently everyone in the comments is more of an expert about economy and mechanics of CSGO than a guy who has been an analyst for the game since 1.6
DanVman i love how you add in a completly diffrent game then csgo. Cs 1.6 is not played in the same way since all mechanics of the game is diffrent. Thorin got ZERO actual experience playing anyway near pro level the dude is a complete noob about the game. What he is good at is reading stats and banter
Terrible lol analyst, same for csgo
DanVman Thorin is nova 3
Simpan Wigemo SINCE 1.6, I’m saying how he has been apart of the scene longer than anyone who is commenting about him being an idiot
Ömer Koşar A lot of analysts and casters are novas, all it means is that they cannot use the mouse and keyboard that well in counter strike
Lol some people in this comment section are triggered af. It's ok if you think that he's wrong, but you need to give a reason as well. Thorin is talking about a pro-player LAN environment, he's said multiple times that he doesn't care about casuals and online play and since almost all of us only have experience with exactly that, what we think that we know about the game doesn't apply to his arguments. F. e. because of ping the AWP is way more easy to use online than offline.
My argument would be that having 1-2 people using an awp at a time is a healthy place for the game to be. He keeps saying "why doesnt everyone buy the awp?" and the answer is because it is well balanced with the rifles. He also asks "why hasnt the best player in the world ever been an awper?". Pimp and Lurppis name Kenny and Guardian and he still wants more. 1 in 5 players are primary awpers so ofc the best player in the world at any one time is unlikely to be an awper. Currently, most teams in most maps will use 1 or 2 awps. That seems balanced to me
He wasn't saying it's not good enough to be used, it's just not good enough to justify its price and hype. You can't call it 'the most impactful gun in the game' when you can beat it with a fucking CZ in more than 50% of situations. It's a gun, it's kinda balanced, some people are good with it, but it either needs a buff to make it a little more viable mid and close range, or its price lowered. That's Thorin's point, that it's not the best or most impactful gun in the game, and that it used to be much more in 1.6 and before the blurry scope shit and other nerfs. He's not calling it bad, he's saying it's not that good any more. Also, of course people are still using it. CS maps have had their layout created way before the AWP nerfs, and some parts of the maps, and specific angles, can only be held successfully with an AWP (see banana on Inferno or mid on Mirage and Cache etc.)
The thing about his argument that does not make sense is that he himself has no experience playing with it. There is alot of angles that the awp can carry from. There is a reason people buy a hero awp and not a hero m4. Him not having played at any semi high level just makes his thoughts invalid. He thinks because its the best weapon it gotta be the best in every situations. If he was at a decent lvl like esea a+ or faceit 10 he would know 100% that the awp if by FAR the most impactful weapon in the game. No other weapon can win rounds like the awp can.
You don't have to be able to play at a high level to understand and analyze at a high level. Whether he is right or wrong has nothing to do with his own skill level. Pros are not an authority on analysis. It was proven time and time again in every game that most pros are very talented but non-thinking players.
Simpan Wigemo if its most impactful weapon game then everyone should possibly to try get it in match. Why then 4 riflers team is much better than 4 awpers team? Its high risk high reward gun and pro players have so many hours with the gun that tehy excees the expectation what you can do with it. I have played in very low semi-pro team (main awper) and if I missed I got insta rekt. Running pistol heros also shit on awper more often than rifler....
Dear Thorin. CS.GO would be a very boring scene without you. I never watch anything but matches unless you are at the desk. You keep cracking a smile on my face.
Up kill reward and up movement speed while scoped (doesn't need to be like pre-nerf awp but faster than currently) and i'd be happy.
Why buff this cancer gun? You can run around quickscoping and not get punished.
The reason you don't get punished is because you are shit, don't blame the game.
Semmler be like "I'm just gonna sit back and enjoy the show"
(sorry for so such a long essay but there is so much to cover with the AWP and why it needs to be back to 150 movement speed)
Note: Please copy and paste all links in a search bar to get to the correct time.
Yes the AWP is the most powerful weapon in the game without a doubt. But we must be honest that it also has downsides and cons to using it. Players usually argue that the AWP is already overpowered because it's a one shot kill and they just don't like when they are killed by it I guess. But that is what the AWP is supposed to do. We already have alternatives to the AWP which are the scout (not 1 shot but more mobile) and the autosnipers (faster firerate but not as mobile as the scout). They just aren't used as much as the AWP. So now some cons about the AWP. The AWP is really costly at 4750 meaning the AWPer will not always have an AWP, it has a terrible kill reward so you dont make money from kill players, it has terrible no scoping and close range capabilities meaning if 2 or 3 enemies rush you you're fucked, and you move incredibly slow with it. This balances out the AWP's one shot potential and some downsides to using it meaning it won't be the right weapon in every situation. Usually when something is overpowered it becomes so overpowered that there is a point where it is never the wrong option to buy it/use it. An example of this is Star Craft where the infestor was so overpowered that you could have 30 of them and it wouldn't be wrong. You would always get more out of it than what you paid for it. You never see teams with 5 AWP's even pre awp nerf you would see generally 1 AWP on each side. Especially on T-side. To add onto this, when have we ever seen teams where their best players were primary AWPers and created an era of dominance. Titan is a famous example of this where at the time kennyS was on the team. Titan's star player was kennyS and who was a primary AWPer. They were by no means the best team in the world at all at the time with him and the pre nerf AWP. Players argue that kennyS was too godly and too overpowered with it. But did we see him winning majors left and right, winning tournaments left and right, and dominating every other team out there??? No. Typically Titan only won on LAN and online, but didn't win where it counted most.
Major/Premier matches where Titan didn’t win and there were large prize pools:
ESL One Cologne 2014 Titan vs Cloud9
ESL One Cologne 2014 Titan vs Dignitas
ESL One Katowice 2015 Titan vs ENVYUS
ESL One Katowice Qualifier 2015 Titan vs CLG
Inferno Online Pantamera Challenge 2015 Titan vs Fnatic
All these major/premier matches were not won by Titan. kennyS at the time was on Titan. The matches listed were huge prize pools and Titan was not able to win them. Players argue that kennyS was overpowered with AWP but all of these matches he was not able to win them by himself. Especially the absolute hard carry in the Inferno Online Pantamera Challenge 2015 where he got 50 kills and still lost the game to Fnatic. Fnatic one of the best teams at the world at time was able to win against the godly overpowered kennyS with the AWP. The greatest teams in the world hardly ever make strats around the AWP, look at N.I.P, ENVYUS, and Fnatic at the time. Titan was special in this regard revolving everything around kennyS and they still weren’t able to make 1 major playoff. Having diverstiy in AWPing was great. The AWPer vs AWPer battles were completely balanced. The things that balance out the AWP is the cost, kill reward, terrible no scoping, low rate of fire, very slow, and you can get overwhelmed. The AWPer on teams will never have an AWP 100% of the time because of how costly it is. At least kennyS at this time at the time had the movement speed to get frags and be the best player that he could. But by nerfing it you just made it worse for him even though it wasn’t giving him a advantage like winning majors, premiers, seasons, etc.
In the video, you see Pimp and Lurppis name many AWPers that were apparently better than they actually were because of the pre nerf AWP. This is true to a certain extant. Having the 150 movement speed was a obviously a good thing for the AWP, so of course it's going to make your better than you actually are having 0 or in this case 100 movement speed now. This is because you're able to move and be more mobile with it. Lurppis makes the assumption that its the impactful weapon and Pimp says even average players could use the AWP. But how do they use it and what other types of AWPers are they going up against. All the factors that go into they AWPer vs AWPer battles and AWPer vs Rifler battles is massive. 1) How much experience do they have 2) How do they use the AWP 3) What are personal talents and skills the AWPer/Rifler has i.e reaction time, reflexes, flicks, aim. So lets take Lurppis' and Pimp's statements. That average players/not primary AWPers/hybrid players can use the AWP. So lets get a scenario here. kennyS a godly and primary AWPer is going up against shox, a primary rifler, hybrid rifler/AWP player. Shox is holding a CT position where he is just looking at the angle. He has the advantage, so when kennyS peeks it's whoever fires, whoever is more accurate, and who is the better AWPer. Obviously kennyS is the better AWPer and is known for his reactions. Because he is the better AWPer with more skill and talent he kills shox, he is rewarded for having the skill and being a primary AWPer with more skill and experience. So Lurppis' and Pimp's claim of hybrid AWPers can use it is not true at all. (And I actually used a real scenario that happened in the major Katowice 2015 Titan vs EnVyUs)
ruclips.net/video/j0fqfOmPxGA/видео.html#t=49m15s (kennyS vs Shox AWPer vs AWPer battle)
So now that the AWP is nerfed with 100 movement speed let's take a scenario where kennyS is limited due to the AWP nerf. kennyS is a CT and knowing he is an aggressive/mobile AWPer he peeks a player KRIMZ who isnt even considered an AWPer or a good AWPer by any means kills kennyS due to the movement speed. You have made KRIMZ's position overpowered and before kennyS would of had a chance to peek and kill KRIMZ before he was killed. This is actually another real scenario that happened 2015 at DreamHack Cluj-Napoca (In the clip you can see that kennyS doesn't even see KRIMZ, he can only see his arm not even the chest before KRIMZ fires and kills him)
ruclips.net/video/2OgomRWyJgE/видео.html#t=12m40s (kennyS vs KRIMZ AWPer vs AWPer battle)
(Another clip of kennyS still on Titan after the AWP nerf, we see in this one that kennyS peeks olofmeister and see 1/3 of this body before he is killed, again olofmeister once best player in the world but still not a primary AWPer, he is a hybrid and is able to kill kennyS a primary AWPer with more skill and talent with the AWP)
ruclips.net/video/QasprVRdmuE/видео.html#t=15m25s (kennyS vs olofmeister AWPer vs AWPer battle)
Last thing, I'll show you how balanced AWPer vs AWPer battles were back with pre AWP nerf.
ruclips.net/video/LKdc4ohBp54/видео.htmlm5s (kennyS vs Fifflaren)
ruclips.net/video/Pn77iVTnzCg/видео.html#t=07m35s (kennyS vs JW)
ruclips.net/video/-PIy4M-dUZw/видео.html#t=00m6s (kennyS vs JW)
ruclips.net/video/-PIy4M-dUZw/видео.html#t=01m52s (kennyS vs JW)
ruclips.net/video/MmgjiT6MsKY/видео.html#t=03m40s (kennyS vs Happy AWPer vs Rifler Battle) I find this clip very funny cause you move about 90 movement with while shift walking with the AWP and Happy is able to take out kennyS here with pre AWP nerf.
What do we see here, all of these great AWPers are taken out by other great AWPers, kennyS vs JW, kennyS vs Fifflaren (having the peekers advantage was completely fine, at least the T-side AWPers had 150 movement speed to balance it out and have a chance to peek and kill them)
In-game feature: The point of shift walking with the AWP before pre-nerf was that if you couldn't hear footsteps. Walking normally scoped with the AWP you could hear footsteps with 150 movement speed. Now if you normally scope and walk you can no longer hear footsteps and if you shift walk you can't hear footsteps either, so what is the point of shift walking now. Usually most people like to crab/crouch walk while peeks with the AWP and while doing that you are 100% accurate cause a certain speed value if you are below 95 you are 100% accurate. So that means whoever tries to scope and walk normally without crab walking in most cases will get killed by the crab walker because he is 100% accurate and that player only needs to fire while the normal walker has to stop and wait for a millisecond for the scope to become accurate and then fire.
I leave you with this. Think about it. Was nerfing the AWP the right choice. Also think about how the game has changed. The M4's and AK-47 received second shot accuracy buffs after the nerf. So when an AWPer peeks with 150 movement speed now they have a better chance to 1 tap or if they miss the first shot tap them with the second shot. I'm all for rifles being more powerful against the AWP, but the AWP needs to be buffed first. Reward primary AWPers being able to peek because they train and study the weapon. It's wrong when a non primary AWPer can kill a primary AWPer when peeking, sure they can, but at least give the primary AWPer a chance to see the full player model and have a chance to fire and kill.
Source Credit: Thorin
Thorin's video after the AWP nerf: ruclips.net/video/rsFnJYJ2buU/видео.html
The MagiciaN Your arguments and evidence were crafted beautifully. I have read every bit and agreed with it.
Thank you so much, that means a lot. I've been on Thorin's side for the longest time since the AWP nerf and I've always been against the AWP nerf. Finally the topic has been brought up again and hopefully we can see an AWP movement buff. It's something that frustrates so many old AWPers and limits them in a destructive manner.
Most peoples problem with the awp is that its a sniper...You shouldnt have good movespeed with it. Your supposed hold positions with it. We dont want 1 awper clearing out an entire t side push onto a site dude.
sorry but half of this aren't necessary to talk about for example, comparing AWP with a scout. Saying how AWP currently work, with no evidence to back it up, you talk theoretically then.
Thorin's Argument
Let's assume if AWP is the best gun in the game.
Everyone at least 2/5 of team would use it most of the times.
You argue that, it's situational.
the same applies to Shotgun and other weapon, they're situational weapons, they can have advantage over certain scenario.
AK47/M4 are not the best. Close range lose to SG, far lose to AWP.
The best gun is determined by how much it's impact at all scenario, of course M4/AK47 will win.
I think 99% of the people in here need to read a book on argumentation and how it works. Apart from that there isn't much else to say. Does the awp need a buff? Maybe. The factors of how it is used, when its used, who is using it etc cant reflect on if it should get a buff or not. The price might be an issue for sure because it costs so much that even main awpers need to follow certain strats to buy it on a full buy round. If they then don't have enough impact on the round, was the price worth the small/big impact it had on that given round? Does the player using it hit 9/10 shots for it to be effective and get a kill with? All those things have to be answered to be able to answer the biggest question, does it need a buff? What thorin does here is just taking a piss at Lurppis poor ability to make valid arguments to his statement.
clearly all of you hate Thorin now, although I think he's right in the most parts.
It's cool to hate Thorin, that's what gives him most hate.
Everybody is so salty its fucking great
I only want one change, make quick scope as accurate as 1.6, quick scoping is still half luck after certain range, whats the logic behind making quick-scoping inaccurate.
lmao at all these silvers in the comments talking shit at thorin. The AWP is definitely underpowered, just because you get rekt by AWPers in your silver games, doesnt make the gun OP.
SelfMadeHero04 retards everywer mate....
But then I could just say “Just because you can’t get kills with an AWP in your silver games, doesn’t mean it’s underpowered”.
Like, that’s such a shitty argument. So is just calling a person a silver for having a different opinion.
And I’m not on the side that’s saying that the AWP is too op, that’s stupid. Imo the AWP is pretty perfect the way it is. Just making a point about your comment.
I mean, it’s not actually completely stupid with everything you said. But you don’t give any argument. Just calling people silver scrubs that get rekt by AWPs when I could just call you a silver scrub that can’t use an AWP.
All the logical arguments you need are in the video. If you understand language, you can neither in good faith call the gun the "best" or "most impactful". Both of those terms are reserrved for the AK.
And the reason I think its underpowered is because at the highest levels, the AWP loses to almost every gun in a 1v1, unless you have an angle advantage (and remember that 1v1 is the best possible scenario you can have, unless you use good tactics to outnumber the enemy, at which point you might as well have an AK or M4). And most guns win 1v1 with an angle advantage. The reason ppl still run AWPs is purely for strategical purposes, or because their best player just happens to be an AWPer (G2 have my sympathy for having to play around the AWP, instead of WITH the AWP)
SelfMadeHero04 That is just a false statement. The awp doesnt lose most of its duels. In the contrary for a rifler to win a duel against an awp who is holding an angle alot of thing need to go right, and essentially you are to an extend at the mercy of your opponent.
A classic example where some1 can be completely wrong, and look like he was right just through charisma and dominance.
Except he not only dominated the argument but was sinfully accurate. Too bad you can't look past your nose to see that.
Adrian Szewczyk how exactly did he dominate the argument? He's shit at the game he only knows the history of the game lol
He knows both the stats and the history of the game, you don't have to be insane at a game to be an analyst but you have to understand almost every aspect of it.
He was accurate, while being wrong. Just because u make up a pretty argumentation doesn't mean that your statment is true (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_Being_Right). If you think that AWP should be buffed, then well, I got nothing to say to you.
Heyda Marvin well u dont have to think the awp should be buffed ro agree with most of ehat thorin said. All thorin said for 90% of the video was that the awp isnt the most impactful or the best gun in the game... That is just a fact. I personally dont think the awp needs to be buffed but still doesnt change the fact that it isnt some broken op weapon.
So is everyone here a silver who doesn't get flashed,smoked,or Molotoved?
Apparently. It seems everyone in the comment section just widepeaks into sites every round and wonders why they are being awped.
Yeah pretty much, any high risk high reward gun is being highly rewarded in lowet elos. This is how it works on any game.
Even if you disagree with Thoorin you gotta admit he articulates his point really well and stays consistant through out
3 years later and this debate is still relevant. I used to agree 100% with Thorin but now I see that both sides make interesting points. The most important thing that Thorin said is that essentially every gun is viable against it. AWPs at medium range vs SMGs and pistols can get swarmed very easily. I think the most balanced version of the AWP is one where the movement is slightly buffed so that you can move faster w it, while also increasing the reward to $300 per kill. This way the monetary investment for the AWP is still significant but not as damaging to the economy as a $100 reward
The funniest thing in hindsight is the thing thorin mentions about pro players buying guns, given how the pros slept on the AUG and SG for 5 years.
@@trollface9903
The AUG and Krieg were not the same for 5 years, they started using it after their first bullet accuracy values were increased to 100% essentially becoming the only guns in the game to be 100% accurate on first bullet.
The AUG and Krieg meta of 2019 was the 2nd time this happened, the first AUG-Krieg meta was during 2012 when the ak and m4 didnt have recoil patterns and relied solely on spread values.
No, the pros did not "sleep" on the scoped rifles, the scoped rifles were buffed in 2018 and made cheaper in 2019.
@@juanme555 how about you actually check the patch notes. The only changes that were made were to the prices, until the final nerfs way later.
@@trollface9903
Ok, will you doble down in saying that the aug and krieg were the exact same gun from 2014 until it became used again in 2019?
This is why 3 X 100iq is not equal to 300iq
Lurppis and Pimp had way too many flaws in the way they worded their argument, simply allowd Thorin to focus on the holes in the way they argued and ****ed them
The thing is, the AWP is a one shot gun. In CS, you have lanes of entry points, say mid in many maps, banana, B halls in many maps etc etc. An AWP which has the capability of killing a player in one shot with a zoom capability makes it the perfect "lane holder". Like Thorin himself said, guns have their own nische per CS core gameplay. The AWP, which is a perfect long range lane-holder, should primarily be used as such. Ever heard the call of "The AWP is holding B / MID, we shouldn't go there"? That's because your time is in a situation where you don't have any utility, the AWP can just hold the lane perfectly without distraction. If cost would be lowered and if mobility would be improved, then it would start being used like an assault rifle as well as a lane holder. Even today you see the AWP being utilised as an AK by agressive AWP players and they are often very successful in doing so. Lowering price and improving mobility would make the AWP compete with the AK, it's stupid. The AWP is good as it is now having a primary function with a functional yet restricted secondary function.
I don't think you fully understand the video and what Thorin was trying to say. Either the gun stats stay the same as they are and the price is lowered or the price stays the same and they buff the mobility of it. When people bring the argument that the AWP should be used as a "defensive weapon" to hold CT positions is pure garbage and limitation to a player. Game developers put weapons and items into the game so when players come along they find innovative ways to use that tool/weapon/item, ways that the game developers didn't even expect. That's what makes a great game, diversity. What is the AWP used for now, as the one shot sniper that is used to hold CT positions wielded by the AWPer??? Before with the old AWP, you say teams like Navi and Titan use the AWP as a key core component for their strats. They can't do that anymore so you've taken that away from them. Plus you saw different styles of AWPing at the high level. Players like kennyS and JW who were aggressive and mobile. Players like GuardiaN and Skadoodle who like holding CT positions and play more passive turret styles. Players like Allu, dev1ce, karrigan, shox, Maikelele, Fallen, Coldzera, Happy, and Olofmeister who play more defensively and passive cause they're not primary AWPers. To add on, the AWP isn't a shotgun, it's a sniper rifle, a completely different class of weapon. 1) AWP is terrible at no scoping unlike a shotgun where you can hipfire 2)shotgun is way more mobile 3)shotguns don't have scopes 4) they're 2 different weapon classes
Motion blur while scoped is to know when your shot is going to be inaccurate
Should the regular crosshair blur every time you move?
When I was silver elite master I thought the awp was broken. When I got to smfc (before the rank update for 2 games), I didn't see an awp.
Nice to see you seem to like the video ;)!
Since there wasn't any cred regarding the source, I'll put it in here; this was taken from our show #ZnipeLive during IEM Oakland - feel free to stay updated at our Twitter for the next show with Thorin & Semmler together with our future guests =)
Sorry about that. I've added the direct source and your Twitter as well. Thanks.
Yay! Thank you very much - keep up with your great vids =)!
The only thing they needed to say to counter thorin was that it's a situational weapon. Against 1 opponent you have a massive advantage against 2 your good as dead
This is still legendary
Man this is so funny, that nobody is trying to run from Throin's points.
All the AWP experts, csgo analysts and geniuses trashing Thorin in the comments.
Does Thorin actually mean that a weapon is only good/impactful if its viable as a full team buy, (5 awps)?
Ersand93 If the awp is the "most impactful" everyone should be or would be using it which isn't the case.
It would suck to argue with Thorin about anything.
Kinda agree with duncan the AWP is situational it and although good i wouldn't say its the best gun in the game that has to go to the AK good price great 1 HS kill good at all ranges there is no specific situation where it is damn near useless .
theres fucking absolutely no way they should reduce the cost of the awp, it's already too strong as it is now
right or wrong arguiing with thorrin is pointless
Thorin is so right in this video..... How any of you can disagree* with him is ridiculous and just goes to show how much new people are in this game, that never got to understand the mechanics of it. The AWP was NEVER overpowered, it was the CZ that made it so that it had no downsides to missing a shot and being out of position. If you missed a close range shot in 1.6/Source you were pretty much fucked, because you would get your head banged off by a rifle. With the CZ you could just pull out a mini-rifle of your own and there were pretty much no downsides to missing, whatsoever.
But nowadays, you can barely move while scoped in, if you hold an angle from whatever distance and miss, you get tagged so you sometimes can't even get back into cover and while that is going on; you pay the most for it and get the least kill reward back..
Yeah, it's reaaalllyyyyy overpowered, isn't it? No it's not, it's just that you newer players never understood that you can throw a random flash (doesn't even have to be a good one) and get to the angle before the AWPer can repeek and you're golden.
Also; to the people saying it should be nerfed even more, please get the fuck out of my beloved game you silver fucking scrub.
Completely ignoring the more-than-a-full-second pull-out time of the CZ, of course.
Completely ignoring the CZ75 Nerf that happened in 2014, of course.
I actually thought you were joking when you started to rant about the CZ. Holy shit.
I do agree that it’s impact diminishes as skill increases though.
You must be new
TheGudStuffs lol this guy is a scrub. even thorin doesn't agree with it anymore. The best player in the world on the best team in the world is their primary awper Fallen.
It's a teamgame with different possible scenarios, each gun has its advantages and disadvantages. While an ak is a great allround option, an awp on the other hand excels in a few specific situations, but other times it leaves you in a vulnerable position.
still most accurate discussion on the awp in 2023
The awp nerf hurt CSGOs growth. It limits amazing players like Kenny Guardian and JW. It made for less innovative play and more static angles.
11:25 yes we move the goalposts because you set them in such a ridiculous way that you are right.
I think the impact of having one or more AWPs on a team also involves changing the way the enemy plays, as they have to be careful with how they peek and approach taking control of an area. Personally I feel the experience would be much more enjoyable with the AWP if they removed blur, increased move speed etc. but giving the AWP more responsibility in a game by making it more individually impactful could place even more blame on AWPers for team losses. Worth mentioning that Fallen just received MVP of the Blast Pro Series as well, instead of cold for once. People argue that it's because he didn't have to deal with device, but that's an element of impact a good opposing AWPer can have.
though i agree kennyS was too much before the nerf, but lets be real, it was a joy to see him clutch out 1v4s and 1v3s like anything and hit the most ridiculous flicks
definitely greatest awper of all time
By making it cost 4000 you would change the game into something that is way more static and boring. That is not what you want (at least i dont want that). As it is right now you have an advantage over other players in certain positions. Thats why you need an awp in a good ct setup (on most maps)
I don't think the AWP needs to be the most impactful gun over an entire match. It's just OF the kills it gets, a high percentage of those kills are considered high impact frags. So in the rounds where it matters, if you hit the small window of opportunity and as a player you have good positioning and mechanical skill, it should mater. It should be an economic risk, and there should be consequences for misusing it. Any gun that's one shot kill should be that way. A gun that's one shot kill should absolutely not be viable in every situation and should not be the most impactful and get the most frags all the time. That would be silly. You don't want a team of 5 awps in any serious situation. It should be situational, and it is. I can see a case for $300 kill reward though and getting rid of the scope blur. I think the unscoped movement speed maybe being upped like a few percent would be cool. Something small maybe, but even that I'm not sure is needed.
Thooorin and Richard Lewis have demonstrated multiple times that they do not know what interp is. They do not understand any of the subtleties of the game. Lurppis's comment about repeeking went straight over Thooorin's head and he completely ignored it.
"If the awp is the best gun in the game? Where are all the primary awpers?" - THERE ARE PLENTY OF PRIMARY AWPERS DOOD. There are few awpers COMPARED TO RIFLERS because a team can only afford one awp per team, in an evenly skilled match. Like Lurppis said, "Its the cost."
The awp IS the best gun in the game, despite awpers not having success in game CURRENTLY. The result of a match and kill counts do not determine the strength of a weapon. "HOW CAN THIS BE???" Proclaims Thooorin? Well first of all, rifle players do not just let themselves get fucked up the ass by an awp. They purposely avoid awps and only take favorable duels. Teams purposely run strategies to counter the awp and make use of their own awp. The fact that entire strategies are based around one player wielding an awp proves that is a viable weapon.
Still a big fan of thooorin's interviews and content. Been following since 2011 when he made the Grilled interviews for team acer.
Where's the full conversation?
Of course the awp should be way faster and stronger, but that's only if VALVe actually made counter-strike focused on Professional tier 1 and tier 2 scene, the sad truth for purist is that CSGO is literally the Number 1 most played game on steam almost every single day with over a million unique players playing at the same time the 24 hours of the day, the game also brings in billions of dollars of money through skins market for VALVe , of course VALVe is going to design the game in a manner that acomodates for casual low skilled players, i don't like it but i can't pretend like its unreasonable, it's totally understandable even if its tragic for us old school players who enjoy the skill ceiling being as high as it possibly could be.
Now, one point that im dissapointed Thorin didn't adress was when Lurppis suggested that if they buff the AWP, then they should also buff the AK and M4, and this would honestly be the ideal sceneraio....YES Lurppis, remove spread/inaccuracy rng values from the rifles and lower their price, this would be beautiful and would make the game so much better, Thorin could've agreed with lurppis there, ever since VALVe got its paws on Counter-Strike they have done nothing but lower the skill ceiling of the franchise.
You buy the awp for tactical purposes. You want an awp in certain parts of the map, because its easier to get kills with, and it gives you an advantage in those points. I dont think its unreasonable to ask more for an awp than a rifle. How much more is the question.
Why dont 5 people use awps when its so impactful? well because tactically thats just not very smart, why would you use it close quarters? if you miss once ur done for. higher chance of succes with a rifle in that spot. So you only need 1 or 2 awps on your team.
Is awp more impactful than a rifle? It can be. But thats totally irrelevant tbh. Impactfulness can be achieved with both weapons. It depends on how and where you use them, and the person using them, if you are impactfull or not.
awp like any other thing you can buy is just a tool. This tool is 4700dollars. if you feel its worth it you buy it, else go for a rifle. Sure they can reduce the price, and that will change the dynamic of some rounds, making the awp more atainable. If thats something valve wants to do fine. But Its a judgement call on if its necesairy or not.
Thorin is very small minded.
every update Volvo pushes on us has been absolute SHIT.
Guardian s1mple kennyS dev1ce falle are some of the most impactful players ever, all of them are the primary awpers on their team
each side is 1/2 wrong but pimp and lurpis don't know how to articulate their side as well as thorin does. the reason that there are so few primary awpers is because it is a situational weapon. if a awp was better in every situation as a rifle, it would be point less to buy a rifle. by making the scope movement faster, you make it more difficult for a rifle to hold and angle against a peeking awp, which in this case should always have an advantage on both t and ct side. the awp is a long range weapon meant for holding angle. while i understand that a proactive awper can be more dominant, it is not the awps original intent. that being said, a proactive awping play style shouldn't just be eliminated from the game. in csgo now, noscoping( quick scoping) has a luck variable in it which limits proactive awpers. realistically the solution here is to buff awp scoped movement, get rid of the inaccuracy of noscopes, and make the kill reward 300$ .to make the awp not over powered now is to simultaneously buff the rifle accuracy or increase the size of the head shot hit box to make the inaccuracy less noticeable, i would prefer the former however for online purposes as interp would fuck with the hitboxes more if they were larger.
By the logic "why doesn't everyone use the awp if it's the most impactfull" -- why is there not a single high level pro team that prefers to go 5 rifles all the time instead of having an awp also when money allows? This logic of just because something is the best doesn't mean it's situational is silly. The rifle is a Jack of all trades and the awp is a master of one.
VP did and Faze pre-guardian did.
Thorin's comment on the most impactful guns is just stupid. His timings on the comment made it look like he was on point lmao
Watching their ego crumble is hilarious!
Ask Thorin if he’s saving, and the rest of his team has to eco the next round, would he rather bring an ak or awp into the next round?
Karl Johnson the AWP gets saved because it's more expensive to rebuy. What the fucking kind of a argument even is that?
What do you mean?
4:02 "Don't remember alot, just remember one for me"
Has someone recorded the entire broadcast? If yes please hmu.
I think Valve doesn't want 1.6 levels of AWP in CS:GO. Which is fine, but they need to change it in some other way or else it's just a garbage gun that goes from a mainstay to a niche weapon because it costs too much. Thorin is mostly right and I think the AWP would be fine at maybe $3900-4200. The only thing that is slightly better for AWP players compared to 1.6 is that tagging is worse in CS:GO which makes it easier to peek and repeek even if you get clipped once they generally can't convert to a kill because you can just move back into cover quicker. But if you compare the gun in CS:GO to the 1.6 version, it's no contest - the 1.6 AWP is better in basically every single way besides damage (which is the same except wallbanging is better overall in 1.6).
As for the double AWP argument - why is that bad? Double AWPing is a big risk and you're tying up 3 rifles worth of money for two players that are more vulnerable than rifle players in a lot of ways. It's a valid tactic and it has upsides and downsides - it's also almost completely map and side specific. There's nothing wrong with double AWP strats and making the AWP so bad so no one will double AWP is ridiculous and unneeded. It would be like nerfing the AK because too many teams just buy 5x AK in a lot of situations.
The AWP either needs to be buffed or it needs to be cheaper (IMO the better option). A $4000 AWP would open up a lot more strats. You could even make it cheaper for Ts - maybe like $3800 for Ts and $4200 for CT or something.
You know what initially didn't agree with thorin but his argument was so good he changed my mind though I don't think the AWP should be like 1.6
Semmler waiting 10mins to carefully enter the conversation by stating that Thoorin is a valve dev xD
When you have a good AWP player, he can be very impactful. That said, it does not mean that he is the most impactful player in the world. Same with any gun!
Tommy Mack The Ak is the most impactful and most riflers are the most impactful players in the game mostly
Semmler going with the Hipster move but Thorin is rocking Yeezys with the Stache. Ill give it to the Norse god.
I was about to write a bible. So I rewrote it. And I made another bible. That's why I've concluded with the nerf had both good and bad sides. Thoooring has the best example for why it's bad. And everyone else is happy that it's nerfed so KennyS could come down their level.
this is actually a really good discussion
look at all those guys who say thorin is dumb and that the awp is op... obviousely the only experience of the weapon most of those people have is matchmaking or some shit cs level, where they are not even capable of pulling a flashbang out to avoid getting rekt by walking like some dumbass into an awper crosshair
here those guys are talking about players that are actually good (not like all those crybabies who get rekt by a standing shit awper in matchmaking). in elite tournament or at such a high level the awp has way less impact on the game, if not putting the team that uses it in a bad economical situation...
is thorin right saying it should get a buff? not necessarily. but at least he's got a point: this is NOT the most impactful nor the best weapon in the game, and those who say it is op just don't get the mechanics of the game (or are just too bad of a player to avoid getting rekt)
and please don't tell me it is op because you saw kennys or guardian clips. if it was op and that easy to use every pro player would have such clips.
have a good day
The awp is too strong. You should not be able to run around quickscoping with it. It's bullshit. The only weakness for a GOOD awper is that flashes can fuck them up. That's about it. They can hold corners, areas, quickscope, long range battle, short range battle, etc.
I feel like csgo in general just gets nerfed to please casuals. Boost spots that used to take skill to climb get changed so that everyone can reach them. OP pistols get added to give players a better chance against rifles. And the awp gets nerfed because a few people were really good with it.
i mean in thoorins logic a gun has to be op (ergo bought by every player, when they have the money) until its not to be buffed. i mean we experienced that shit with the sg/aug a while back and that wasn't fun at all. btw sg>ak but still no one uses it, so usage of weapons doesn't directly tell how good guns are
The awp makes perfect sense in its current state because pro teams always have an awper and will bring it out if able. We don't want double awp to be the standard
the awp is good as it is now imo. changing the kill reward would maybe be a good change.
If it was good (I assume you mean more effective at killing ) as you are saying, then it would not need a kill reward...
I think they should buff the m4a1-s. But increase the ammo to 20/60 instead of 20/40. So its the same reserve as the a4, 3 clips. Maybe more people would use it
m4a1s shouldn't have the same amount of ammo as the a4. You have to sacrifice the amount of ammo for the silenced shots. If it was the same as m4a4, then everyone would use it and nobody would know where anyone was getting killed from. All weapons are situational
Jugg MKJ true, do you think they should buff it, if so how should they buff it
Robert Neubauer I don't think it needs buffed personally, I think it's good in certain positions/situations like most weapons are. But I'm pretty dumb/lazy so I really don't know and don't want to look up info. Like, I assume it's damage is slightly less than the m4a4, but I don't know for sure. In my opinion any buffs would just make it too useful too often. Have to sacrifice something for the silencing. If anything, maybe have it with 25-30 bullets in each magazine but with the same amount of total bullets it currently has? Or maybe give it 10 less bullets than the a4? I think it's a better gun for passive players that want to "hide", and m4a4 better for aggressive players. Again, I duno much I just like to argyew.
Thoorin may or may not be right but I like his subtlety and straight points. He’s doesn’t do BS. He’s the only reason why I watch the pre game talk.
The only thing i would change is the kill reward
How is the perspective of "AWP is most expensive gun/hardest to master"
compatible with AWP price should be lower.
Asks for 1 example, gets 2 asks for a 3rd.
Thorins argument is virtually non existent, he is just answering questions with more questions. The idea of making the AWP more versatile/cost less would destroy the meta of the game. The reason Lurppis says it is the most impactful is clearly because it is a very efficient weapon at long-medium ranges, where is is capable of taking an opponent down in a single shot, which is massively important with respect to the opening of a round (ie. taking the opening frag of the round).
Reverting the AWP's mobility as it was pre-patch would create the issue that pimp brought up, bad players would now be able to use the AWP very efficiently at almost any range (The issue with the AWP pre-patch). Yes raising its mobility would raise the skill ceiling for good players but that is not worth giving shit players the capability of peeking like JW.
I'm not totally against reducing the price, however I don't see a point behind it. If players are currently willing to invest the $4750 then reducing the price of the AWP only reduces the risk in buying it. Buying an AWP should be a conscious decision and a risk, and removing some the risk makes the game slightly less interesting for a viewer.
Also wanted to note that I have been a massive fan of Thorins for years now. This is just one of the points were I disagree with him.
aussieshooter8
This here is what I wanted to see
His arguments are.
1)It's harder to use than other weapons.
2) More expensive than other weapons.
3)Kill reward is worse.
4)Not many players are great with it
5) Every gun's viable against.
These are all downsides to the upside that it can one-shot people, compared to an AK and other rifles, it has also these downsides while barely any upside.
The range was never brought up, but at least unlike them you actually added something to your argument rather than just reasoning, but that's you interpreting their points rather than them actually stating them, they use short-hands that even people who play the game can't articulate their definitions, let alone present clearly for the average viewer who barely interacts with CS;GO to understand.
Some of these points Lurrpis and Pimp themselves brought up, that's the positions he takes and holds them while the other 2 try to disproves him only to be shot at by their own logic and inability to accurately articulate their points.
They call it the most impactful yet at best only 2 people buy it, they say alot of average players can look good with it yet only bring 2 or 3 with Pimp bring himself up as an example which murks the argument a bit, Thoorin also brings up how it's accompanied by CZ for the players who miss their shots, how using kennyS isn't a point as he is the exception that proves the rule that better AWP players perform better than the better rifle players, which history even now shows to be true. You can say Thoorin made only a few points but the key is the others didn't bring up any valid points and Lurppis literally says at 3:07 ''I really don't feel this way...''
I feel like Thorin is quite close minded here, and sometimes even irrational. At a certain point someone argues that the AWP is the most impactful weapon, and then Thorin continues that KennyS (assuming he is that best AWPer) isn't the most impactful player. He then acts as if this proves a certain point, which it obviously doesn't.
Let's assume that Coldzera is the best rifler to explain this. Coldzera might be relatively better with the rifle than KennyS is with the AWP. This could possibly mean that even though the AWP is more important and impactful, Coldzera makes up for that in personal skill.
Another example. I am a big fan of Device, who has proven himself to be a great rifler as well as AWPer. So even though KennyS might be better than Device at AWPing, he still isn't as impactful because he doesn't have as much diversity in his game.
I really don't understand why Thorin was acting like he proved a good point here, maybe I'm just not understanding him well enough. I think that the point made is a fair one. The AWP is the most impactful, even at this cost and with these mechanics.
Watching this video further I cannot believe that so many people look to this guy for logic and advice on certain topics.
At a certain point he raises the question "do all people use an AWP?" in an attempt to argue that the AWP isn't the most impactful gun. So he only looks at the amount of players using a certain gun to determine how impactful it is. Do I even need to explain how retarded this is? It's like saying "a semi-truck has the biggest cargo hold of all road-vehicules so this is the best day-to-day vehicule". If you don't understand what I'm trying to point out: he ignores a huge number of relevant points.
Reasons why not everyone in a team uses an AWP that Thorin doesn't seem to realise:
- It is expensive
- Slow fire rate: bad for defending against a rush as a CT/bad for entrying as a T
- Weak in close quarters: not viable in many positions of the maps/bad for retaking a site as CT
It's strange that none of the other members of this panels are able to point this out to him, but that's probably because he keeps saying irrelevant stuff and nonsense in general.
TheHastate for starters his point about the best player thing which he later goes into is that if the awp is the most impactful gun in the game then over the course of csgo there should be more players with the awp that could be considered the best in the world a position held by players traditionally that have THE MOST IMPACT then riflers however there have been tons of primary riflers who have been considered for the best player in the world and only 2 awpers ever and for much shorter amounts of time... That makes no sense awp most impactful/best gun in the game yet almost no primary awper has been the best in the world wtf... And secondly you do realize that all the points u just said about why people dont buy tbe awp are all the reasons why it isnt the most impactful right how can a gun br the most impactful when it is so inferior to the rifles in most scenerios? For a gun to be the best/most impactful it would have to be viable in most situations however the awp is only viable in specific situations... Yes in those situations it is better and more impactful then the rifle sure but in all the other situations it is not xD
This is a ridiculous claim and you are either disingenous or not specifically logical.
If you are operating under the conclusion that the AWP is the most impactful gun in the game, then logically the best awper in the world would be (at least one of) the most impactful player. This isn't a hard concept to grasp.
Honestly, you most likely disliked thorin going into this, which clouded your judgement about what he says.
"It's like saying "a semi-truck has the biggest cargo hold of all road-vehicules so this is the best day-to-day vehicule"." What kind of ridiculous analogy is this? This does not follow at all.
If you say the awp is the most "impactful" weapon in the game, by definition that would mean it has more impact than an AK-47/M4. Now you tell me, if the AWP is more impactful than the rifles, then who would win; a team of 5 primary awpers or a team of 5 riflers.
EDIT: Just to clarify my point in case you miss it, the whole idea that the awp being more impactful than a rifle essentially suggests that you would be a worse team without an awp than without rifles, as the awp is apparently more impactful than the rifles.
Why is this world full of ignorant idiots... you´re actually saying thorin is narrow minded for stating that the most expensive and supposedly the most impactful weapon in the game, played by the players who use it the best -> KennyS -> Guardian -> Fallen ... is still not even close to being the most impactful weapon in the game if you look at stats or even just at the games while they play out ? Yup what a narow minded fool, fuck you thorin for saying stuff that makes sense, what a horrible human being you are...if you could instead just lie and be a robot that sucks dick and follows everyone elses opinion and be overly nice all the time, that be great thanks.
Shut the fuck up kids... its so fucking sad to see theres so many virgin fucks that hate thorin so much, yet they´re in every thorin video watching it.. just so they can talk some shit after coz they know he wont reply and verbally destroy them..
is the AWP good ? Yes ....
is the AWP still used and able to be viable at the highest level of CS ? Yes....
is the AWP very expensive ? Yes...
Does the game reward you for paying that amount of money for it if you look at the consistent impact of the best players in the world with it, compared to normal riflers ? Absolutely NOT
The gun is still extremely effective for holding angles, however valve severely NERFED the playmaking ability the best of AWP´ers had with it before, so when thorin presents the logic that valve either have to buff the weapon to a degree that the very best AWP´ers have a chance to be the best players in the world while being a primary AWP´er (WITH THE SUPPOSEDLY BEST/MOST IMPACTFUL WEAPON IN THE GAME) or.... lower the amount of money you pay for the weapon (the easy route which still wouldnt fix the issue, but it would atleast make these primary AWP´ers able to buy their weapon more often and therefore have more chances to have impact with it.
Yes you can leave the AWP as it is right now and people wouldnt complain too much because its in a slightly underpowered state, but people have learned to cope with it and adapt to the meta of the way the AWP is now played.. but why would u keep the gun in a state where its by far the most expensive of the every round viable weapons, however it is not even close to being as impactful as a rifle due to the way you are forced to play it now ? makes no sense.
I don't understand Thorin's logic as to why more people don't use the AWP. Have you ever played a game where everyone on your team gets an AWP? Unless your team is sick, everyone dies because of close-quarter duals, or there's too many enemies peaking, etc. I think the reason there isn't more awpers is because it isn't viable to have more than one awper. Even if you made it the price of the ak-47 I don't really think the glass cannon would be as dominate as he thinks because of the high risk of having multiple players awping
I guess by his logic the awp should be less money because it's so risky
You jus explained why it should be buffed...
Philip Vergr thorin asks lurpis why the awp isnt used as much as other guns if the awp is better. Id argue it still is a better gun because it has the opportunity to one shot above the legs. Even though it has the ability to be a better gun it has a higher skill ceiling more risk. Im saying that its the best gun but it is a higher risk gun, the ak isnt a one shot kill in the stomach or chest but you have 29 more bullets to shoot. I think a $4000 awp would be fair
To be perfectly honest, I think Thorin is wrong about the AWP, I think it's pretty well balanced, more so, I think it's the CZ/pistols should be nerfed in their use alongside AWPs. However, I really think the others' points were really dumb and made less sense than Thorin.
Thumbnail text: 'Thorin wreckeds them'. How can you even make it 'rekts'?
Dark blue shirt guy reminds me of Ryan Reynolds
The AWP may be a situational weapon, and it's definitely not the best weapon in the game. That being said, if one side has one and the other does not, it can make a big difference. If one team has an awp, it forces the other team to alter their play style to counter it, be it with tactics, or by picking up an awp themselves. It like a zero sum game. If both teams have them, it goes back to square one, but if one team has one and the other does not, the difference the awp can make is like no other weapon in the game.
just up a bit the scoped movement speed
I couldn't agree with thorin more
I appreciate Thorin, he's a good analyst and he has a lot of good things to say about the nature of the game. But his argument the AWP can't be a very impactful weapon if not everyone is using it makes no sense. Has he ever heard of the term "diminishing returns"? Evidently not. It is very easy to have something that is very impactful which is not necessarily more impactful just because you have more of it. The reason why the AWP is good and it is used is because it is very strong with area control; more than any other weapons, you can punish people who push sites without proper support, you can force them to expend utility. You can force them to play more conservatively and deny them control of parts of the map. In that sense, it is extremely impactful. And that's why basically every team runs a dedicated AWPer.
thorjelly He said that the awp isnt the most impactfull weapon not that it cant be impactfull
My point is that his argument for saying that it isn't the most impactful weapon is unsound. Without even needing to know anything about cs:go, just in general, it is possible to have an element be the "most impactful" element without it being better to have more of that element, due to the property of diminishing returns.
Furthermore, let's say you have a basket of four apples and an orange, and this sells better than a basket of five apples. Wouldn't you say that the orange is clearly worth more than the apple, and therefore it could be argued is "more impactful" to the price? Would it not also be so if clearly teams have better results with one AWP and four rifles? So why can't it be argued that it's "most impactful?"
And lastly. Just speaking in terms of CS:GO. No other weapon can do what the AWP does. The scout really usually doesn't punish players for peaking; it usually take multiple shots, you rarely get a one shot kill and it leaves you just as vulnerable, and doesn't really punish players for not playing conservatively. However, many weapons do basically what a rifle does. You have the cheaper rifles, you have the UMP, all of which are used sometimes when there isn't money for a full buy, and are often used in the same ways and in the same positions as an M4 and AK. So, even if you can't get those, you can get alternatives. The way teams play really only changes significantly when there's an AWP on the field. So can't you say the AWP is most impactful in that sense too?
Semmler's just sitting back and enjoying it all LMFAO
I'd love to see a review of this stance from Thorin in 2022, now that for the last 4 years the best players in the world (HLTV top 3/4) have been awpers, with basically the only exception being NiKo.
9:51 Dude ok, Thorin can NOT take everything that seriously.
awp is good for defending for 1 person to hold site at ct for example: b site banana. you can kill by one shot and fall back and make good damage while mates rotate.
then as t site its better to get ak and push as a team.
Alright, Thorin is talking about the downsides of the awp but somehow he and the other casters fail to mention that it has a 1 hit kill on the thorso and has the most wallbang potential. No other gun has that potential. Lurppis also had a good point about how they would have to buff all the other rifles. As a player, the awp atm is absolutely fine. The motion blur beeing a minor aspect but i can agree that as a player it can be annoying at times but nothing game breaking. But i can see thorins dilemma why he is so tilted is because it's less fun to watch as a spectator. Which Thorin thrives at, beeing a spectator and COMMENTATOR. NOT a player.
Inferno as CT or T. Alot of players and pro players alike have changed the momentum and actually won rounds by just noscoping and wallbanging through the wall on banana. We've seen insane wallbang shots on CACHE, TRAIN and other maps alike.
I started playing CS when it was first released as an alphaMOd for half-life, and as a former 1.6 player it was a bit tilting for me when valve changed the AWP in CS:GO aswell. But now after learning the new "Meta" i think it's absolutely fine. It's not the gun to focus on at all. Remember, beeing a spectator watching insane plays beeing made, and actually making the insane plays as the player urself is a huge difference.
Lower the cost for the awp? Well then you can also up the cost for the deagle and make it a 1 hit kill in the thorso. Balance much? I'm not sure whether thorin just want content for his channel or he is actually serious about this.
LOL @ how scared they are of confrontation.
Even when people bring up KennyS, JW said his reputation had fanatic scared more than anything. After they tactically engaged him head on, with his peak AWP, he was neutralised.
The basic point is the AWP should be cheaper at least.
I rly want the price for the AWP to go down. Im rly bad with rifles and smgs and i useally buy pistols with utility or a scout , while i save up for an AWP.
Nasko K. Dimov so you're silver right?
Im master guardian. But im having fun with the game, its not my main game. I know im bad but im just having fun with thegame.
Does anyone currently have KennyS over Fallen or Guardian right now? A good AWPer can shut down an entire side of a map, it is the best weapon in the game and having one on your side strongly impacts the chances of winning. When a player in a 1 v 3 with the enemy closing in throws an AWP off the map at the last second, it is seen as a 200IQ play. I say it is balanced as is.
9:39 haha mate you just set yourself up on that one.
The only problem with the awp is the kill reward tbh. Everything else about it is pretty balanced. Yes it’s a difficult gun to use, but the impact a good awper can have in games is tremendous. The awp can rape a whole team in 5 seconds with 5 bullets if one is that good. Keeping it as hard as it is now and as expensive will make the game more fair, because awps can easily shift game momentum.
This entire discussion could have been ended by ONE word:
RETAKES
Bring my old fucking awp back...
The issue here is that no one really went into details as to what they mean by their statements and ellaborated on them. It was about rather poor semantics.
The statement that AWP is the most impactful gun in the game would seem to imply that the more AWPs team has, the more impact and chance of victory and than the more desirable would to have as many AWPs as possible, while this would seem probably reasonable statement, it kind of omits the way and reasoning behind why is the AWP used and its drawbacks.
The advantage of AWP against rifles is that it's a instantaneous one bullet kill to chest and head, meaning that teams need to approach taking map control differently, because there could be instant easy death around every corner that could be impossible to trade, thus the presence of 1-2 AWPs in game could make it the most impactful gun in the server. Of course AK-47 and Krieg autosnipers also can provide a one bullet kill, but only into head, which is way more difficult and unreliable, making them inferior weapons for one shot kills, especially at range, since their accuracy might be lower than one of the AWP. That's the quality of the AWP that no other weapon in the game has and why it's being bought.
The issue with AWP, however, is the need to manually draw every bullet into chamber after each shot, meaning you cannot rapid-fire in close quarters or against multiple opponents, meaning that it is very difficult to hold against rushes, multiple people coming and executes. That is amplified even more against eco rounds, where giving away a weapon that is one shot kill is of much more threat to you than a rifle, especially when the opposing team doesn't have kevlar. which AWP pretty much ignores. It also has a much higher pricetag.
Thus the best team compossition is with 3-4 rifles and 1-2 AWP's, (depending upon situation obviously), where the presence or potential presence of AWP forces the opposing team to play more measured, use more granades to gain map control and to use more diverse kinds of peaks, making it the most impactful weapon, while also retaining capabilities against pushes, executes, ecos/forces. I'm pretty sure that everyone in the room would agree that if there was a match in which one team is allowed to buy AWP and the other team cannot buy it, it would give the team that could buy the AWP a really decent edge and that having at least a one decent AWPer is quite a good bonus for any team to have and for team to not have any AWP player would be a huge disadvantage.
I'm probably not covering nearly close to everything and I'm probably lacking quite a bit, like the obvious point that it's a good gun because you can kill people efficiently with it, but I'd say that the issue is that neither of the sides really communicated efficiently and properly explained their view/points.
Thorin's right that the AWP is not the most impactful gun. The most impactful weapons are the AK and the M4 / M4a1-s.
It would be easier for a team to win a match with 5 AK/M4's than with 5 AWPs.
Million kills with ak and no one with 2000 kills with the AWP?
Dude, though I'm not a pro player, but two weeks into the game, and I already had 5000 AWP kills. Even after 2 months, my AK was like 950 kills or something, even though I'm good with both the weapons.
It's all about preference. I prefer to be an AWPer, and so 20 rounds out of 30, I AWP. In my deathmatches, I use AWP 1.5 times more frequently than AWP, but the thing is, my AK rounds still yield me a higher score.
this comment section is pure cancer
Thorin is a great commentator and knows a lot about the CS community, he is a great speaker, and his words are super persuasive, but man, is a he like a walking straw-man fallacy.
How is he using a straw man? he literally uses the strongest points they made to break down how he’s still correct, it’s the complete opposite, it’s an iron man argument you moron.
no team would ever buy 5 awps so sadly thorin is right here. yes the gun is strong vsing rifles but only in certain situations. alot of people will drop a awp late round when half there teams dead
Semmler is litterally saying nothing, just laughing.
The reason there aren't many awpers is genetics. not everyone is born with Kennys reaction times.
true dat, not everyone can click a mouse button when they see a person. That's why I'm thankful for basic motor skills.
2018 2 guy
kennyS & Skadoodle
update
best player in the world are people who can master both weapons