Thank you Steve, I am an Anglo-BritainPhile and I am fighting that Athelstan wasn’t just the first King that United all the English, but he was the 1st Man/King to unite the whole of Britain as “Rex Totius Britanniae”, making the idea of a Country called Britain an ancient idea not a relatively modern idea from the 1st May 1707. What do you say?
It was indeed an ancient idea but in that sense Athelstan failed to realise it. Although the northern alliance lost the battle, their resistance (both sides suffered very heavy losses) effectively put paid to his ambitions and he was dead in 2 years
@@nationalcentreformacromole5145 athelstan was part of a lineage of kings/leaders that became the founding Fathers, not just of England but of Britain also. America doesn’t have a monopoly of founding Fathers. Our founding Fathers are King Alfred the great, Edward the elder, æthelflead, the lady of the Mercians and last but not least King Athelstan. They all had 1 thing in common, they were all born as Saxons, west Saxons at that also, but 2 of them Athelflead and Athelstan through circumstances, ended up embracing the Mercian Anglican culture, probably above there own Wessex culture with Athelflead and certainly without doubt with Athelstan who was rejected by the Wessex Witan as he was of common birth from his Mother’s side, or born out of wedlock, despite his name meaning ‘ noble stone’. His Father Edward was told in no uncertain manner, around the time his Father Alfred died, he will not become king unless he remarries to a woman that is more fitting for a king of Wessex. He had to send Athelstan out of Wessex, out of sight, is out of mind I suppose. Edward sent him to his sister in Mercia. Athelflead took him under her wing and he undoubtedly accompanied her on many battles after her husband died. Athelflead retook the lands that the Danes took from Mercia, while Edward the Elder increased the power of Wessex by taking East anglia, which included Essex. But Northumbria was always out of reach for Edward the elder. The Mercians resented Edward after he took direct control of Mercia after Æthelflead’s death, when her daughter was made queen and she was probably farmed off to Wessex, probably to a monastery. Eventually in 924 there was an attempted coup against Edward when some Mercians allied themselves with the Welsh at Chester, Edward defeated them, but not after he was wounded, Athelstan took his wounded Father to nearby Farndon where he died. The Mercians wanted Athelstan to be the next king, but news spread quickly to Winchester and the Wessex Witan made Ælfweard King of Wessex & the Anglo-Saxons in reality, while Athelstan was mourning his Father & travelling the long journey back to Winchester with him. 2 weeks later Ælfweard travelled to Oxford, a border town between Mercia and Wessex to reassure the Mercian hierarchy before his coronation that they will be treated as equals within his kingdom, these Mercians weren’t interested in that. All we know was Ælfweard was assassinated leaving the Wessex Witan with a massive headache, Edward’s other sons apart from Athelstan were just to young to become king. Eventually after 13 months the Wessex Witan had no choice but to make Athelstan King. Everything that king Alfred the Great had started nearly became undone. Edward had done his duty and helped recapture east Mercia with æthelflead and Wessex increased by capturing east Anglia which also included Essex continuing what his Father started, but he really failed to win the hearts and minds of the Mercian Angles like Æthelflead and Æthelstan did, he is probably not to blame, it’s just how circumstances played out. Athelstan bought Saxon and angle together, which was the key that enabled English dominance of this Island under Athelstan. The Anglo-Saxons predominated over vast swathes of Britain as far north as Edwinsburgh or the modern name Edinburgh, which was as English as anywhere within Mercia or East Anglia. Sihtric the Scandinavian king of York Immediately recognised the difference between Athelstan being king of the Anglo-Saxons & his father Edward and his successor Ælfweard was the difference between a new nation being born and a potential new nation falling apart in rivalry, division and hatred. Sihtric immediately reached out to King Athelstan after his coronation in Kingston upon Thames, which is on the border between Wessex and Mercia. Sihtric reached out to Athelstan and let it be known that he wanted an alliance with Athelstan, who then presented Sihtric with his sister for marriage, so an alliance was created with Sihtric, who had worked out in the jigsaw pieces of the puzzle, York and Northumberland were the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle to unite the English under one king, he recognised that Mercia and Wessex was now truly United under Athelstan, like they wasn’t under Edward and wouldn’t have been under Ælthweard. Within a year of Athelstan marrying his sister to Sihtric he died and a short struggle over York and the fate of southern Northumberland put Athelstan in a position to be king of virtually all the angles and Saxons within this island. He then crossed the Pennines to Penrith close to Eamont bridge at an ancient Bronze Age stone henge like structure where he called King Constantine of Scotland and king Orwain of Strathclyde and King Hywel Dda of Deheubarth and Ealdred of Bamburgh to accept him as their overlord by swearing allegiance to him. He now could be seen as the king over all the Anglo-Saxons, so did he call himself rex saxonia, after all he was born a Saxon. He probably had a ceremony as king of the Mercians in 924, before he was pronounced king of Wessex at Kingston upon Thames in 925. Athelstan had completely and utterly gone native. He called himself Rex Anglorum ( king of the English ). So should this Country we call England have really been called Saxonland or Saxland rather England? I believe it’s because Athelstan was totally rejected not by the ordinary people of Wessex, but by the hierarchy and his Father was forced to go along with it also, that he resented Wessex, he even decided he wanted to be buried in Malmesbury in Gloucester probably just inside Mercia close to the border with Wessex rather than Winchester, which was the official place of burial for all Wessex kings. So of course I acknowledge that King Athelstan was the true king of the English, it’s just a bit freaky that he called himself king of the English when all the power really resided at Winchester in Wessex and officially he was a Wessex king. He obviously resented Wessex and this was his forever revenge on Wessex, calling his kingdom English and it has stuck for over a thousand years. I also believe he was also Rex totius Britanniae after the acceptance of of all the sub kings that they swore allegiance to King Athelstan, he even told Orwain that he is to stop any forms of paganism within Strathclyde as Orwain was Brithonic pagan. Athelstan minted a penny coin from Winchester proclaiming he was Rex Totius Britanniae. (King of all Britain ) This recognised that his authority was respected among Scottish and Welsh kings. But we all know that Orwain and Constantine didn’t turn up at Wessex where king Athelstan’s court was, mostly at Winchester each year to pay there dues, like the Welsh did. We all know Constantine was getting quite old and the journey was a phenomenal journey back in those days, but in 934 Athelstan had enough and invaded northern Scotland by land and by sea, indeed Athelstan’s navy went as far north as one could go to Caithness which is in the region of John O’ Groats and Athelstan’s land army went as far north as Dunottar Castle, very close to modern day Aberdeen. I believe we have to put things into perspective here. I understand that Norse pirates had landed at will at various places all around Scotland and conquered and colonised various places here and there and had a large impact on Scotland overall. But nobody in history, including the Romans had conquered this Island completely.
@@nationalcentreformacromole5145 Continued Constantine was probably not the king of Caithness, it was probably part of the Norse kingdom of Orkney, but an ally of Constantine nevertheless and through this invasion he eventually surrendered to King Athelstan and was forced to accompany King Athelstan all the way down to the south at his court Along with Orwain who also submitted again to Athelstan. So this is the 2nd time Orwain and Constantine submit to Athelstan’s authority as the overlord King of Their territory, confirming Athelstan as Rex Totius Britanniae. To me it was on the long journey home from Athelstan’s court in 934 to Strathclyde and Northern Scotland that Orwain and Constantine would have travelled up along the western side of England past the Wirral through modern day Lancashire and Lancaster into Cumbria that they could see a pathway into England from the north where they could liaise with Olaf Guthfrithson at the Wirral, coming across from Dublin, if only they could convince him to come. Constantine had already created a marriage alliance with Guthfrithson marrying his daughter to Guthfrithson. From what I have seen of yourself professor, you also believe the greatest battle fought on British soil was in the Wirral in 937. It may never be able to be proven through archaeological digging that the battle was fought at Bromborough, but we believe we have the proof that King Athelstan used Watling street which goes straight to Chester and maybe beyond into the Wirral. St Mary’s church in Willesden, was ordered to be built by Athelstan in 938, I think it was given to the diocese of St Paul’s by Athelstan and Athelstan either paid all of the money to build the church or part of the payment. The name Willesden probably comes from a holy well (Willes) and Den could mean denu a valley in old English, usually spelt dean though. I think there is a case for Willesden actually meaning a well in the valley. There is no doubt that Athelstan owned the land at what we now call St Mary’s church in 937, but it was just a holy well at the bottom of a valley back then in a oak forest, which probably had some pig dens also as den can be a shelter for animals like pigs for example who would have had access to the acorns at certain times of the year. Athelstan who was devout Christian went to that holy well and probably stayed overnight taking the waters from that holy well to give him the powers to win the battle of Brunanburh, just after he started the journey to Brunanburh on Watling Street. There was a dirt track that run of Watling street in what we now call Kilburn high road today that was the old Watling street in 937. The dirt track would have taken King Athelstan all the way to the Holywell from Watling street probably a couple of miles long through the oak forests that might have also had pigs in dens by the side of the dirt track. Athelstan would have left his army where the river Bourne crossed Watling street which would have allowed stragglers to catch up from What we now call Marble Arch at the junction of Edgeware Road, The now famous Oxford street road running east to the city of London and beyond to Essex, then Bayswater road running west to Hampshire in the south of England. Oxford street and bayswater road are ancient Roman roads that cross Watling street at Marble Arch, which was also known for its public hangings at tyburn which also has a small tributary running across there for fresh water for an army to rendezvous at this point, running south down the modern park lane is where Watling street continues until it crosses the river Thames at a Ford right next to Houses of Parliament somewhere between the modern bridges of Lambeth Bridge and Westminster Bridge, at low tide it is possible to Ford the river Thames to this day. Watling street continues southwards to Dover. So this cross roads at tyburn modern name Marble Arch is where these 2 Roman roads cross Watling street east to west going west towards the heart of Wessex into Hampshire and east towards the city of London and beyond to Essex at the eastern extremity of Wessex, travelling south towards Dover at Wessex most southeastern extremity so one can see this is the perfect rendezvous for Athelstan to bring the rump of his Wessex army together and at a set time to start that great move northwards up Watling street, where he halts at the river Bourne crossing on Watling street at modern day Kilburn high road, while he goes down that dirt track ( modern name Willesden lane/ Willesden high street ) to the holy well at the modern day St Mary’s Church, knowing many a straggler will catch up with his great army that is just beginning the great march northwards towards Chester and beyond into the Wirral. We all know that Athelstan wasn’t in a rush, unlike Harold Godwinson in 1066 at the battle of Hastings who rushed to meet William the bastard of Normandy and lost literally everything. Athelstan on the other hand really took his time and reaped the reward of victory because of that. Watling street goes right through the middle of Mercia and the word would have been sent up Watling street for every Man in Mercia to wait at the nearest point to Watling street for the great army to march up towards you. The Foss way another Roman road runs from the extreme west of Wessex in Exeter ultimately to Lincoln and it crosses Watling street at a place called ‘ high cross’ which would also allow Mercians from Lincoln to travel to high cross from the north to south avoiding any chance of being compromised meeting up with the Scot’s and Norse that could be anywhere around Lancashire/Staffordshire area, which would have been safer than crossing east to west, there are Roman roads running from East Anglia west towards Watling street also. As this great host marching up Watling Street got closer and closer to Chester, it would have looked like everyman in England was converging onto Chester and the Wirral, it would have been one of the most awesome sights ever seen on this Island. The point is Professor, Athelstan won again, Constantine lost his only heir to his throne, his son. Orwain fled back to Strathclyde and Guthfrithson fled back to Dublin across the Irish Sea in his fine nailed barques. There can be no question that Athelstan created a British Kingdom once, not twice, but thrice. Yes your correct it only lasted his lifetime, but it was an idea put into practice by his Grandfather to unite the people on this Island, maybe Alfred the Great was just looking at uniting all the Anglo-Saxons into a Nation, who knows what Alfred thought that Nation should be called, but Athelstan went beyond what he was supposed to achieve, he became the first man in history to conquer this Island and he rightfully deserves the right to be called “rex Totius Britanniae”. Athelstan is our Alexander the Great. Yes Athelstan must be called a GREAT, there is no question he should be looked at as the Greatest Englishman that ever lived, yes Greater than Alfred the Great.
Thank you Steve, I am an Anglo-BritainPhile and I am fighting that Athelstan wasn’t just the first King that United all the English, but he was the 1st Man/King to unite the whole of Britain as “Rex Totius Britanniae”, making the idea of a Country called Britain an ancient idea not a relatively modern idea from the 1st May 1707. What do you say?
It was indeed an ancient idea but in that sense Athelstan failed to realise it. Although the northern alliance lost the battle, their resistance (both sides suffered very heavy losses) effectively put paid to his ambitions and he was dead in 2 years
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athelstan was part of a lineage of kings/leaders that became the founding
Fathers, not just of England but of Britain also. America doesn’t have a monopoly of founding Fathers.
Our founding Fathers are King Alfred the great, Edward the elder, æthelflead, the lady of the Mercians and last but not least King Athelstan.
They all had 1 thing in common, they were all born as Saxons, west Saxons at that also, but 2 of them Athelflead and Athelstan through circumstances, ended up embracing the Mercian Anglican culture, probably above there own Wessex culture with Athelflead and certainly without doubt with Athelstan who was rejected by the Wessex Witan as he was of common birth from his Mother’s side, or born out of wedlock, despite his name meaning ‘ noble stone’.
His Father Edward was told in no uncertain manner, around the time his Father Alfred died, he will not become king unless he remarries to a woman that is more fitting for a king of Wessex. He had to send Athelstan out of Wessex, out of sight, is out of mind I suppose. Edward sent him to his sister in Mercia. Athelflead took him under her wing and he undoubtedly accompanied her on many battles after her husband died. Athelflead retook the lands that the Danes took from Mercia, while Edward the Elder increased the power of Wessex by taking East anglia, which included Essex. But Northumbria was always out of reach for Edward the elder.
The Mercians resented Edward after he took direct control of Mercia after Æthelflead’s death, when her daughter was made queen and she was probably farmed off to Wessex, probably to a monastery.
Eventually in 924 there was an attempted coup against Edward when some Mercians allied themselves with the Welsh at Chester, Edward defeated them, but not after he was wounded, Athelstan took his wounded Father to nearby Farndon where he died. The Mercians wanted Athelstan to be the next king, but news spread quickly to Winchester and the Wessex Witan made Ælfweard King of Wessex & the Anglo-Saxons in reality, while Athelstan was mourning his Father & travelling the long journey back to Winchester with him. 2 weeks later Ælfweard travelled to Oxford, a border town between Mercia and Wessex to reassure the Mercian hierarchy before his coronation that they will be treated as equals within his kingdom, these Mercians weren’t interested in that. All we know was Ælfweard was assassinated leaving the Wessex Witan with a massive headache, Edward’s other sons apart from Athelstan were just to young to become king. Eventually after 13 months the Wessex Witan had no choice but to make Athelstan King. Everything that king Alfred the Great had started nearly became undone. Edward had done his duty and helped recapture east Mercia with æthelflead and Wessex increased by capturing east Anglia which also included Essex continuing what his Father started, but he really failed to win the hearts and minds of the Mercian Angles like Æthelflead and Æthelstan did, he is probably not to blame, it’s just how circumstances played out.
Athelstan bought Saxon and angle together, which was the key that enabled English dominance of this Island under Athelstan. The Anglo-Saxons predominated over vast swathes of Britain as far north as Edwinsburgh or the modern name Edinburgh, which was as English as anywhere within Mercia or East Anglia.
Sihtric the Scandinavian king of York Immediately recognised the difference between Athelstan being king of the Anglo-Saxons & his father Edward and his successor Ælfweard was the difference between a new nation being born and a potential new nation falling apart in rivalry, division and hatred.
Sihtric immediately reached out to King Athelstan after his coronation in Kingston upon Thames, which is on the border between Wessex and Mercia.
Sihtric reached out to Athelstan and let it be known that he wanted an alliance with Athelstan, who then presented Sihtric with his sister for marriage, so an alliance was created with Sihtric, who had worked out in the jigsaw pieces of the puzzle, York and Northumberland were the last piece of the jigsaw puzzle to unite the English under one king, he recognised that Mercia and Wessex was now truly United under Athelstan, like they wasn’t under Edward and wouldn’t have been under Ælthweard.
Within a year of Athelstan marrying his sister to Sihtric he died and a short struggle over York and the fate of southern Northumberland put Athelstan in a position to be king of virtually all the angles and Saxons within this island. He then crossed the Pennines to Penrith close to Eamont bridge at an ancient Bronze Age stone henge like structure where he called King Constantine of Scotland and king Orwain of Strathclyde and King Hywel Dda of Deheubarth and Ealdred of Bamburgh to accept him as their overlord by swearing allegiance to him. He now could be seen as the king over all the Anglo-Saxons, so did he call himself rex saxonia, after all he was born a Saxon. He probably had a ceremony as king of the Mercians in 924, before he was pronounced king of Wessex at Kingston upon Thames in 925. Athelstan had completely and utterly gone native. He called himself Rex Anglorum ( king of the English ). So should this Country we call England have really been called Saxonland or Saxland rather England? I believe it’s because Athelstan was totally rejected not by the ordinary people of Wessex, but by the hierarchy and his Father was forced to go along with it also, that he resented Wessex, he even decided he wanted to be buried in Malmesbury in Gloucester probably just inside Mercia close to the border with Wessex rather than Winchester, which was the official place of burial for all Wessex kings. So of course I acknowledge that King Athelstan was the true king of the English, it’s just a bit freaky that he called himself king of the English when all the power really resided at Winchester in Wessex and officially he was a Wessex king. He obviously resented Wessex and this was his forever revenge on Wessex, calling his kingdom English and it has stuck for over a thousand years.
I also believe he was also Rex totius Britanniae after the acceptance of of all the sub kings that they swore allegiance to King Athelstan, he even told Orwain that he is to stop any forms of paganism within Strathclyde as Orwain was Brithonic pagan.
Athelstan minted a penny coin from Winchester proclaiming he was Rex Totius Britanniae. (King of all Britain ) This recognised that his authority was respected among Scottish and Welsh kings.
But we all know that Orwain and Constantine didn’t turn up at Wessex where king Athelstan’s court was, mostly at Winchester each year to pay there dues, like the Welsh did.
We all know Constantine was getting quite old and the journey was a phenomenal journey back in those days, but in 934 Athelstan had enough and invaded northern Scotland by land and by sea, indeed Athelstan’s navy went as far north as one could go to Caithness which is in the region of John O’ Groats and Athelstan’s land army went as far north as Dunottar Castle, very close to modern day Aberdeen. I believe we have to put things into perspective here. I understand that Norse pirates had landed at will at various places all around Scotland and conquered and colonised various places here and there and had a large impact on Scotland overall. But nobody in history, including the Romans had conquered this Island completely.
@@nationalcentreformacromole5145
Continued
Constantine was probably not the king of Caithness, it was probably part of the Norse kingdom of Orkney, but an ally of Constantine nevertheless and through this invasion he eventually surrendered to King Athelstan and was forced to accompany King Athelstan all the way down to the south at his court Along with Orwain who also submitted again to Athelstan. So this is the 2nd time Orwain and Constantine submit to Athelstan’s authority as the overlord King of Their territory, confirming Athelstan as Rex Totius Britanniae.
To me it was on the long journey home from Athelstan’s court in 934 to Strathclyde and Northern Scotland that Orwain and Constantine would have travelled up along the western side of England past the Wirral through modern day Lancashire and Lancaster into Cumbria that they could see a pathway into England from the north where they could liaise with Olaf Guthfrithson at the Wirral, coming across from Dublin, if only they could convince him to come. Constantine had already created a marriage alliance with Guthfrithson marrying his daughter to Guthfrithson.
From what I have seen of yourself professor, you also believe the greatest battle fought on British soil was in the Wirral in 937. It may never be able to be proven through archaeological digging that the battle was fought at Bromborough, but we believe we have the proof that King Athelstan used Watling street which goes straight to Chester and maybe beyond into the Wirral.
St Mary’s church in Willesden, was ordered to be built by Athelstan in 938, I think it was given to the diocese of St Paul’s by Athelstan and Athelstan either paid all of the money to build the church or part of the payment. The name Willesden probably comes from a holy well (Willes) and Den could mean denu a valley in old English, usually spelt dean though. I think there is a case for Willesden actually meaning a well in the valley.
There is no doubt that Athelstan owned the land at what we now call St Mary’s church in 937, but it was just a holy well at the bottom of a valley back then in a oak forest, which probably had some pig dens also as den can be a shelter for animals like pigs for example who would have had access to the acorns at certain times of the year.
Athelstan who was devout Christian went to that holy well and probably stayed overnight taking the waters from that holy well to give him the powers to win the battle of Brunanburh, just after he started the journey to Brunanburh on Watling Street. There was a dirt track that run of Watling street in what we now call Kilburn high road today that was the old Watling street in 937. The dirt track would have taken King Athelstan all the way to the Holywell from Watling street probably a couple of miles long through the oak forests that might have also had pigs in dens by the side of the dirt track.
Athelstan would have left his army where the river Bourne crossed Watling street which would have allowed stragglers to catch up from What we now call Marble Arch at the junction of Edgeware Road, The now famous Oxford street road running east to the city of London and beyond to Essex, then Bayswater road running west to Hampshire in the south of England. Oxford street and bayswater road are ancient Roman roads that cross Watling street at Marble Arch, which was also known for its public hangings at tyburn which also has a small tributary running across there for fresh water for an army to rendezvous at this point, running south down the modern park lane is where Watling street continues until it crosses the river Thames at a Ford right next to Houses of Parliament somewhere between the modern bridges of Lambeth Bridge and Westminster Bridge, at low tide it is possible to Ford the river Thames to this day. Watling street continues southwards to Dover.
So this cross roads at tyburn modern name Marble Arch is where these 2 Roman roads cross Watling street east to west going west towards the heart of Wessex into Hampshire and east towards the city of London and beyond to Essex at the eastern extremity of Wessex, travelling south towards Dover at Wessex most southeastern extremity so one can see this is the perfect rendezvous for Athelstan to bring the rump of his Wessex army together and at a set time to start that great move northwards up Watling street, where he halts at the river Bourne crossing on Watling street at modern day Kilburn high road, while he goes down that dirt track ( modern name Willesden lane/ Willesden high street ) to the holy well at the modern day St Mary’s Church, knowing many a straggler will catch up with his great army that is just beginning the great march northwards towards Chester and beyond into the Wirral. We all know that Athelstan wasn’t in a rush, unlike Harold Godwinson in 1066 at the battle of Hastings who rushed to meet William the bastard of Normandy and lost literally everything. Athelstan on the other hand really took his time and reaped the reward of victory because of that. Watling street goes right through the middle of Mercia and the word would have been sent up Watling street for every Man in Mercia to wait at the nearest point to Watling street for the great army to march up towards you. The Foss way another Roman road runs from the extreme west of Wessex in Exeter ultimately to Lincoln and it crosses Watling street at a place called ‘ high cross’ which would also allow Mercians from Lincoln to travel to high cross from the north to south avoiding any chance of being compromised meeting up with the Scot’s and Norse that could be anywhere around Lancashire/Staffordshire area, which would have been safer than crossing east to west, there are Roman roads running from East Anglia west towards Watling street also.
As this great host marching up Watling Street got closer and closer to Chester, it would have looked like everyman in England was converging onto Chester and the Wirral, it would have been one of the most awesome sights ever seen on this Island.
The point is Professor, Athelstan won again, Constantine lost his only heir to his throne, his son. Orwain fled back to Strathclyde and Guthfrithson fled back to Dublin across the Irish Sea in his fine nailed barques.
There can be no question that Athelstan created a British Kingdom once, not twice, but thrice. Yes your correct it only lasted his lifetime, but it was an idea put into practice by his Grandfather to unite the people on this Island, maybe Alfred the Great was just looking at uniting all the Anglo-Saxons into a Nation, who knows what Alfred thought that Nation should be called, but Athelstan went beyond what he was supposed to achieve, he became the first man in history to conquer this Island and he rightfully deserves the right to be called “rex Totius Britanniae”. Athelstan is our Alexander the Great. Yes Athelstan must be called a GREAT, there is no question he should be looked at as the Greatest Englishman that ever lived, yes Greater than Alfred the Great.