How They Make Fighting Games EASIER
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- Опубликовано: 5 авг 2024
- #fightinggames #streetfighter6 #guiltygear
With a combination of Project L showing off one button special moves, Street Fighter 6's modern controls, and GBVS Rising making all specials one button, I wanted to look at how fighting games have tried to make controls easier.
0:00 - intro
1:16 - quarter circles only
2:28 - input buffers
5:11 - advanced input
7:00 - modern controls/stylish mode/alternate control schemes
10:05 - there aren't enough gosh darn buttons
11:15 - one button special moves, why motion inputs exist, and the future
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It is kinda weird that one button special games thus far have had generally had Street Fighter -style movement. When having more intensive movement like Gear could mitigate the reactive power of invincible moves. If you think about it, Guilty Gear already kinda has a "one button DP" in it's 6P. It being balanced by not being completely invincible and not frame 1 invincible.
I know right, when everyone's doing 8 way mixups being able to do a reversal slightly faster means less and less, I was actually working on a game prototype with that idea in mind.
Project L is gonna have 1 button specials (super is down down I think), which makes sense for the pace of that game.
Stylish mode really isn't talked about that much so I feel like people forget Arc Sys even had stylish mode
The last survey had an add simple controls option and I saw some people freaking out a little like Guilty Gear never did it before lol
What gets to me regarding simple controls is how it can limit the number of available moves. Motion inputs allow for certain balance considerations but also let you add moves more easily in future versions.
Motion inputs are most of the fun to me. I played granblue and used the shortcuts there. It just didn't feel as rewarding and fun. I hope they give the option to have actual motion inputs in Project L. But I like how they make inputs less tight, so you don't have to deal with online shenanigans.
@@RastaWayne-di4sjIn GBF, simple inputs have actual gameplay uses. Being able to react quickly at the cost of a cooldown on the ability is a balance and gameplay element, rather than a buff or nerf for the standard special input like it is in modern. They aren't comparable as normal and quick specials are actively used interchangeably in high level gameplay.
@@TenjinZekken I know, but that's not the kind of skill expression I'm looking for in a fighting game. Lightning quick reflexes are cool and all, but I'd rather do reads, preparation and honing my skill instead. I'm old please don't judge me.
@@RastaWayne-di4sj Project L moves too fast for motion inputs, and I think having a team of two characters mitigates the loss of potential abilities. None of the pros playing it seemed to think it was an issue at least.
@@snowys4168 good points. I will definitely look into the game no matter what. Especially since it's free
IMO: There's nothing wrong with making Fighting Games simple, but one of my concerns for newer Fighting Games is when the game feels like a "Regression" or a "throwback" rather than being a Progression or an evolution for the franchise. Often at times, the newer games could have the vibe of " it doesn't feel like a true sequel or so."
My 7yo really had fun playing Pot in stylish in Xrd. It was pretty effective against a mediocre player like me too.
Once my mom played me on xrd and on stylish and with full handicap, she actuslly won
Stylish mode in Blazblue and Guilty Gear is awesome for newcomers to the hard-core fighting genre. It essentially turns the move sets, combos, specials, and ultimates in these games into a Super Smash Bros-like control scheme, and that's honestly a good thing.
It not only eases newbies into these kind of games, but also makes it fun for them.
I really feel the input buffer thing. I love Xrd but ACR has always been a struggle for me just cuz the input buffer is smaller. You would be surprised how much a tiny lil 3F buffer helps
ACR compared to even Xrd has such a tight buffer.
I’ve pretty much got it down now cause of how much I played it, but I find it hard to play it ‘casually’, as in something I pick up to use up 10 mins while waiting for something because it requires so much effort.
Doesn’t mean I’m against these from being a thing, just definitely requires effort
oh hey its the skuggs guy
Man's made an 18min long video without mentioning DNF Duel.... I'm honestly impressed.
As someone fairly new to playing Fighting Games on a level beyond mashing, it has rarely been the special input comands themselves that made me feel incompetent but rather the insanely high speed.
While there are other genres that require similiar reaction speeds, their available action space is so much slimmer.
And most other games with varied movesets move at a glacial pace by comparison...
It's just hard to keep up and understand the timings.
Fighting games need way less reaction time than like, shooter games. If you keep playing, come up with a game plan, and watch your replays, the game ends up slowing down a lot. It just comes down to being familiar with the situations you find yourself in.
@@snowys4168 you are trolling dude, unless everybody has the exact same meta loadout or it's all awps and theres no movement of the player or view and the area is a thin hallway then yeah it's about reaction speed. Theres too many things to account for in a shooter which is why below average players can sometimes beat professionals. In fighting games the only reactions you have to do are confirming into combos and anti-airing. In blockstrings mashing out, jumping/backdashing, or throwing is not a reaction thing it's a commitment thing. Mostly everything in a fighting game is based on knowledge, knowledge of your optimal combos for every button, knowledge of safe blockstrings, and knowledge of opponent blockstrings so you can mash. In slower games like street fighter and mortal kombat that actually have neutral it's about reactions a little more
I started playing SF6 because of a demo with modern controls, if it wasn’t for modern it would not have interested me as much, now I am currently getting better at classic because of all the missing actions of some characters and damage but I feel they have done it right and creating a bigger fan base it’s a great option
Smash Ultimate's buffer isn't a specific length, it lasts as long as the current animation lasts as long as you're still holding the button. So for example if you do Ryu's up special, but you double tap it, then as long as you hold the second button press, you can buffer a second Shoryuken for like... Well over a second
I personally consider this system of super lenient buffers while requiring you to hold the button, to be the best kind of buffer because it minimizes accidental moves while being as lenient as possible
The buffer works with hold and also has a lenient regular buffer (I've buffered airdodge to my death enough times to know).
Thankfully, there's also a priority to certain buffers. For instance, up-special has higher priority than air dodge, so buffering both at the same time will always give an up-special.
@@grasshopper801 Ah okay, I wasn't aware of a buffer in SSB that didn't require holding the button. While I'm not Sakurai, that feels... unneeded
Ultrafight da Kianta uses an indefinite buffer system.
Your videos keep getting better and better, cool vid
My main point has always been that motion inputs allow for a variety of different special moves as opposed to just having four directional options available. Simple inputs are just too limiting, which is why even Modern Controls in SF6 you have characters either straight up losing specials or having to do it manually with motion inputs even on Modern to get those specials anyway. It's also important because the motion and the attack they're associated with are similar, which is just intuitive game design from the get go. The fireball motion looks like the flow of movement Ryu or Ken takes when doing a Hadouken, which is squat down, and then swing arms forward to launch their projectile. It just makes sense from a visual standpoint. Project L aims to tackle the problem of simple inputs taking up precious space for specials by decreasing the amount of button for normals altogether. You now have only three buttons for normals and two dedicated buttons for specials in Project L. Which works for a faster paced team-based fighting game, but IMO, it'd be a nightmare in a 1v1 setting to balance properly. Kind of the reason GBVS had cooldowns for their specials. People with just basic fighting game knowledge would just stomp beginners without any effort, even more so than usual.
This convo always leads back to "just have better tutorials" for a reason, simplified/modern controls can never exist without rippling side effects.
Have you ever seen a Tekken character move list? They have hundreds of moves and a lot of characters don't even have qcf motions. Numbers if moves isn't a valid argument imo.
You can have up to 10 specials with M controls in street fighter (up down left right neutral, then all of those plus the assist button).
@@gjergjipocari8227 Tekken functions on strings, which is a different ballpark. It's also a 3D game, which has to take into account an extra axis for movement. As per the video's topics, we're talking if the game functions more traditionally on a 2D like SF or GG.
@@gjergjipocari8227 it's when
Classic and simple controls are together the issue comes up. Classic alone is balanced by the need to perform the motions. When simple controls are alone it is balanced by the vast amount of combos requiring pushing buttons simultaneously. when both are available together the simple control users are slightly advantaged by quicker execution as the games it is available in are always balanced around classic controls.
Amazing vídeo, honestly the Best one about this subject, keep the awesome content bro o/
Honestly I am 100% fine with stylish or modern mode over autocombos. They are probably just the same thing, but autocombos always felt like they reward mashing instead of fundamentals.
Smash ultimate experience: I want to roll right
*get hit before it comes out and you're off stage*
Game:" I see you input shield and right 5 years ago. Here you go 👍."
*dies*
I think the not enough buttons complaint get's a bit of a bad rap, it does make some sense specifically from the perspective a old school SF/footsie fighter player. Those games tend to have more niche buttons that are situationally strong, for example a lot of anti-air buttons are uncancellable and unsafe on hit because they're balanced around air resets. It leaves room for more nuanced balance, you can afford to give characters like Claw, who's anti-airs are generally weak and unrewarding, multiple options to deal with jump ins.
To be fair Airdashers generally have less emphasis on choosing exactly the right anti-airs and pokes, but problems can pop up from time to time in specific matchups. To be honest this is something that bothers me in games like Persona and DNF. There are certain characters with 1 or 2 godlike buttons most others simply can't contest, so in these matchups it can feel like one player gets to control the ground or jump in for free. Universal dp can help sometimes, but not always, and even when it does it rarely feels satisfying. Again this isn't gamebreaking or anything, but it is a turn-off if you prefer to focus on the ground game.
Mk1 I think nailed buffer as you can now adjust in settings if you want short medium or long buffer.
Good topic & examples. It must be interesting for people new to fighters to choose.
I prefer classic inputs as a longtime player, though simple inputs can be a break on the hands in single player modes. 720 motion & HCBx2 were always a pain for me, though.
Yeah, I agree on Granblue & SF6. The latter has a damage reduction for Modern. But tough to balance that. Nice vid.
Imho, Blade Strangers approaches the one-button-scheme amazingly on top of other solid features.
However, one of the biggest main issues is the need to memorize plenty of button macros for important universal mechanics.
That, and the publisher behind it has an infamous rep.
one thing to bring up if/ when you decide to make a video on how fighting games still retain depth (unless you have already and im developing early onset alzheimer's) is how some games will "sneak in" certain input requirements in order to wall off certain things characters can do that adds that extra little bit of depth to their gameplan and opens up utility with the character and the game as well overall
one of the more famous examples being Tiger Knee technique which you can also use strive baiken's youzansen as an example of
The impact of simple controls probably depends on the games's neutral. Been learning KoF14 (it's a lot of fun) for several months. Its very hard to convert hit confirms with an opponent using three different jumps. If KoF had simple controls, anyone would be able to DP or anti-air literally everything. Jumping has always been neutral here (correct me if I'm wrong), so it should stay this way. Just depends on the game.
can we talk about why Carl of all characters has a dash that has momentum start up 1 frame later than the first actionable frame, so you would have to manually do the microdash. but for everyone else in BBCF you can buffer it. so he has to do it manually
I just want to mention that BBCF Stylish does still have a button for doing specials.
Also Stylish Kagura has his charge requirements removed so he ends up playing completely differently with routes normally impossible for traditional Kagura despite having a more limited moveset. It's pretty weird when you first run into one and he's doing 66B sonic boom looping pressure into run up instant [8]2 overhead.
It was a fun watch, but I’m surprised that dash macros weren’t mentioned haha
So cool
The honest answer for "how hard should inputs be", for most people, is "as hard as I can handle but not harder than that".
BB not having enough buttons is comical
fewer buttons or shorter input strings certainly don't have to mean easier or less interesting gameplay, i think Virtua Fighter really illustrates that point. i'm excited for the way things are going in game design lately.
The difficulty with modern and classic control is balance. Because it basically means you have to balance 2x the character roster.
I do believe it’s possible though if given time. I want modern to stay. Whether Capcom chooses (and future games) decide to achieve a balance between those 2 or make classic superior at higher levels, who knows.
Making classic better for higher levels makes sense because those are people who would take the game competitively. But modern’s main goal is to allow people to actually play the game. Not necessarily to be the next daigo.
I think this is an appropriate approach as I do want to be able to play fightibg games with my friends casually and fun but they’re into different genres which also have very complex systems so I can’t invest time to play them. But we do play simpler versions of those games. I can’t play their long, hours long campaign matches on war sim games, but I can definitely play Risk with them, even if I still lose.
I just enjoy doing motions while playing fighting games. I love the feeling in fighting games where I can use normals, command normals, specials and supers, dashes, hops etc. all having different levels of inputs. It creates this great variation in gamefeel for me that I don't get in games with single button specials. I feel nice when I'm able to sneak a dp inn between a small gap in a blockstring, or managing a super cancel from light buttons, run up instant command grab, whiff punishing a button with a super, microstepping for the juggle etc. It's all the small execution parts I feel add so much spice to a game.
That's not to say I don't enjoy fighters with single button specials, I just enjoy fighters with motions or other methods to mixup the flow more.
Most levelheaded take I've seen on the topic
Took the words out of my mouth. Well said.
You addressed it, but I wish GBVS went in the other direction with longer cooldowns for their one button reversals. It just never felt meaningful. The reversal knocks the opponent far enough away that it is back up by the time you need it again. I never really felt like there was a jump-in window. So I guess I do get why they are leaning into it... though I wish they would have leaned away from it.
I really like the way Calamity Trigger did simple inputs, it's pretty similar to SF6 Modern iirc.
I remember being very happy about it because I played on a shitty Xbox 360 knock-off controller, and BBCT story mode got me into fighting games for life for how fluid it felt compared to SF4.
CT had stylish?
@@LordKnightfgc it was in Continuum Shift but i wonder if it was in CT. If it was there all the way back in 2008 then Arc were agead of the curve.
@@LordKnightfgc I only played the Steam version of CT, but it did have a way to do Special moves by tilting the right analog stick in different directions.
Iirc there were no autocombos for normals, but you could get the "rekka" follow-ups to specials by tilting the analog a few more times.
I wish lk would have mentioned how Capcom made the implied admission of how powerful 1 button specials are from a balance perspective when they gave modern controls a20 percent damage reduction
Good point actually. Surprisingly in modern control discourse, the damage isn't really talked about at all
To say that modern controls has 20% damage reduction though isnt really accurate since it doesnt apply to normals ever (which is usually over 50% of your combo at least) and also only applies to specials and supers where you use the simple inputs.
Good players will use motions during combos to get the full damage and the simple inputs for reaction punishes like whiffed moves or beating the startup of an opponents moves.
I think the damage conversation doesnt come up much because it is honestly very negligable.
@@evilweevle I honestly did not know that. I thought it was a flat application across the board
@@evilweevleyep, pros are basically using it as macros.
In your comment about advanced input, KoF didn't have a button buffer in that way until KoFXIII, so BB beat it to the punch, and also it only applies to special moves. Before XIII, KoF used to do the OPPOSITE, where if you held a button, special moves wouldn't come out at all. This sounds weird, but there's a reason for it in older KoF. For instance if your character had a light confirm that was 2B 2A 6A, if you accidentally rolled 236 going from 2A to 6A, you'd get 2B 2A fireball instead of 6A, but if you held B you could do 2A 236A and only get 6A. Actually a situationally useful tool, but doesn't exist anymore.
Also speaking of XIII, with regards to input buffer, XIII actually has a massive input buffer. The biggest it has ever been in the series, I forget the exact number but it's insanely high like 20-30 frames. This DID make it harder to not get overlapping inputs compared to older games, but SNK also updated the input interpreter to the new modern standard for the series, where motions can be extended by only 1 direction, so for instance 6236 still counts as a DP as it does in most games, but 62369 is just fireball, because a DP can NEVER end in a 9, so if you want a guaranteed fireball every time, 2369 is the guaranteed fireball input. The input buffer in KoFXIV and XV have been shortened, but the input interpreter remains because it's just a really clean sophisticated solution that solves many problems.
I was told KOF97 has advanced input multiple times in other videos I've made, is this not true?
@@LordKnightfgc To be honest I'm not incredibly familiar with 97, so if it does it would be an outlier to the series because 98 definitely does not, and I'm pretty sure most games after 98 don't either.
@@LordKnightfgc To get back to you on this now that I'm home from work, I tested 97GM on Steam and I don't believe this to be the case. I think some people are thinking it does because it has really fast cancel windows (and also basically any normal that can be special cancelled can be whiff cancelled) so if you input a special to cancel it comes out very fast, but trying to buffer during recovery or braking a move it does not work. Also trying to chain normals by quickly pressing one then the other before the chain window does not yield positive results. It seems like people are reporting a false positive, basically. 97 also has the other trick of holding a button will prevent special moves entirely.
This is a really weird take but I think it'd be cool to have a 2D fighter with some defensive mechanics from SSBM. SDI and the ground tech mechanics provide skill gap opportunities in a match. The input buffer in SF6 (4f) is too big too, IMO.
I think you covered everything when it come to simple inputs and its controversies, and I can see why people get mad. It is because most of the games that have want to integrate simple inputs do it the wrong way. A la SF and BB where to modes exist and creates a weird dichotomy and doesn’t not make sense like you stated. Or a la GBFV where things are created from the ground up to be simple but are a slower game. But when games are created around simple controls as a basis, other aspects of it need to be balanced around it and it creates a more cohesive picture. Simple input doesn’t inherently mean a dumbed down game, as you said, there are games that have complexity elsewhere, like being a tag game or having very fast movement, etc. I believe simple inputs are the future, since publishers want more people getting into it, but games need to be balanced around that fact and also not be dumbed down. Otherwise it becomes boring.
I think modern controls are overall good for the community. If it gets new players into the scene, then that's good, and they may eventually transfer over to classic controls. I like how SF6 makes it so modern controls do a bit less damage in exchange for the reaction advantage. And once you get to a higher level, it really doesn't matter because everybody wants full control of their character.
Fantasy Strike Fantasy Strike Fantasy Strike.
Also upcoming Frostfire battle frenzy
You never addressed the biggest change in fighting games or at least the one I acknowledged as annoyance. When your character has auto combos and unique actions are locked behind the second input of 5AA or the second first hit of 5B is jump cancelable but you may tap 5B a second time getting 5BB. That was my biggest gripe of games becoming simplified over the years that lately I just became a spectator. I was never a big fan of the 5AAAA 5BBBB 5CCC, etc. I want to press each button individually and mapped to their own button. Just like you I was there playing fighters back in 96' all the way up to the present. Of course I kind of fell off after 2017 and just a spectator of EVO and other majors.
I'm always going to pick technical when I play my games. Was never a big fan of handholding or watering down the games.
Although it is true that the devs have made efforts to improve "accessibility" by decreasing the execution requirements ...
IMPORTANTLY, I believe the Real way in which they have simplified games / "leveled the planefield", is by REMOVING/LIMITING defensive options...
You can usually tell signs of a good player by how they turn solid/great defense into Offensive, via movement and positioning, blitz/FBlock in Xrd, parry in SF3rdS or JDef in Garou and so on ...
Attacking is Much easier than defending, and so devs realized that, if Ur able to catch Ur opponent easier with strong offense, even stronger players will eventually fall to more experienced players even if just from time to time, thus leveling the playfield as a result ...
Still, I do believe that easier inputs, specially 1 button specials Can impact Ur strategy. For example, if Ur character has a DP with its traditional motion but Ur bad at it, then U'll have to find a less optimal solution to jump-ins, which becomes a weakness to targeg in matches. Soo these inputs help the players have less issues in their plans for less dedication...
Thanks for Ur insight and comments on execution 👍🏻
4:40 come on man😭😭
I have played Rivals for a very long time and ive played with three buttons. This game is really complex and im not great. Im just good enough to stand a chance and notice when certain moves are really strong.
Going from GGST to SF6 , the timing feels a lot tighter. Its not the motion inputs that make it feel harder for me.
I like how dbfz handled their inputs
As a long time Granblue player, I do find it a bit weird that they changed what was already a very popular system with fans, but ultimately I'm not opposed to simple across the board. I agree that mixed input options are where most pain points exist and games that are all one or the other are probably ideal
Ya as someone with a few thousand hours into ultimate the buffer is horrendous
Ohh man. That's a old one. I remember back in the day dudes used to say that to low-key hate on a fighter that ant the one they fanboi on lol
I personally think that the biggest problem with learning fighting games as a newbie is movement. You know how new devil may cry players keep holding forward and mashing stinger because they can't get the movement of the character being a factor so they drop the game. Fighting games would be way more beginner friendly if they just gave you the option to use a button to block and another to dash and run instead of stick inputs.
You sleeping well LK? Your eyes look weary with exhaustion
The “not enough buttons” take is crazy haha, those people never played virtua fighter 😂
Tobal No.1, Virtua Fighter, Evil Zone, DoA. There are more good fighting games without complicated stuff.
Say what you will, but motion inputs feel awesome
It was this exact video that let me know DNF Duel is cooked. Didn't get a mention the whole time
i thought you d talk about mvc, im disapppoint:
"easy, normal"
u cant use persona as exemple dbz either: they r made for ppl coming in.
no "previous crowd",like tk5: there s a previous crowd from 4.
persona it's jrpg fans, hencethe ease. dbz it's the previus naruto one piece like games they r coming from
what do you feel about the comparison that fighting game modern mode is the fight game equivalent of auto aim in competitive shooters?
I would def want to talk to a high level fps player for more info
Idk how to explain this clearly but, in shooter games, aim will completely carry a bad player. A bronze level player with aim hacks would have a chance vs pros. Aim is like, *the* thing. In fighting games, it's all about mindgames and footsies and conditioning, being able to DP with one button will only carry a bronze player to silver. It's more like, what if shooter games had auto bunnyhopping. Something like that.
Holy shit. I completely forgot Stylish existed for BB. I take back all the modern slack I gave SF6
They didnt make every button ez input specials in Gbvs:R, they made it that the Cooldown of normal input and easy input is the same, small correction there. 15:45
misunderstood it, thank you
As a Street Fighter veteran, I'm used to small arcade buffers, plus, i want my moves to come out ASAP.
can't wait to see SF7 be reduced to a 3 button fighter with smash controls and still have people slipping down the "it doesn't matter" slide.
thank god blazblue is safe 5 foot under.
lmao
This is an example of the "slippery slope" fallacy.
They are awesome. They allowed me to get everyone in SF to plat or above and have fun with them all. I played classic for years and made the switch.
The thing that annoys me most about these conversations is how it's treated as the be all end all.
Making inputs easier makes more sense like what SF6 and DBFZ did, so you can actually focus more on the fighting and not on long-term muscle memory build-up. The reason why the FGC community is aging is because top players have built muscle memory for years which new players don't have. Making new players uncompetitive and handicapped because of experience prevents FGC from growing. In the end, elitism just kills the community off, rather than making it accessible to all. Another reason why younger players aren't good at fighting games, because they played first person games in 3D, they haven't had experience with 2D platforming
"MAKE THE FIGHTING GAME EASIER FOR MILLIA PLAYERS"
Honestly this conversation would be easier to have if there wasn’t a constant stream of people screaming about how modern/auto combos are just
“Annihilating the integrity of the game! And ruining balance!” And then you get into a match with them and they’re 330lp on street fighter 6 💀💀.
And it’s like that for a lot of things. Where I’d want to address or look deeper into it but every prompt I get to do so is from people not engaging with basic lab tools, or practice?
Which is a shame it’s a conversation actually worth thinking about.
Like in street fighter, again for instance. “Modern Zangief is busted.” Is it though? It sounds good on surface. He can do his level 3 anywhere in the match and that feels wrong.
Until I played Uniclr and it taught me the motion for standing 720 in *passing*. And it clicks. “Oh this is possible.”
“But it’s taking out skill!” It’s taking out move sets. But you still have to learn and practice to get anywhere near decent damage even on modern. At what point is something broken or raising the bar for all comers?
And all of these are great questions! But everyone needs to have a comparable skill level and understanding of the game and games next to them for this to be a useful discussion.
Good video, but my main thing is I'm still waiting for the next format in these games. I'm 42 now and I look back to playing SF2 in arcades when I was 10....and we're still stuck in that template. Add/subtract as many mechanics/characters/gimmicks as you want, it's still the same basic game. How do we move beyond? Virtua Fighter attempted that move way back in 1993 but even 3D fighters quickly became stuck in the same way. Until someone brainstorms how to move the genre forward we'll stay stuck in this cycle of arguing game mechanics and searching for a perfect balance between casual/hardcore that doesn't exist.
In terms of simplifying fgs i wholeheartedly support Obama's basketball analogy. It is stupid that game devs in new fgs are alienating the core fan base and ignoring already established working designs. That said I do agree that if a game is designed without motion inputs from the start I don't think it's a problem since the devs will have to balance the game in a different way.
I’m tired of LK doing FG theory he needs to drop FGs completely and pursue his true dream of being a skincare RUclipsr
That weird buffer thing in Smash Ultimate is what ruined the game for me, that n the over exaggerated hitstun n lag personally made the game feel draggy n unresponsive n not fun to play
I can appreciate the attempt at making new players more comfortable but I really don’t like the way modern characters are balanced in sf6.
At first I didn’t think much of it but now I feel like modern characters like Luke, Marisa, Ken and Chun are genuinely busted. The ‘drawbacks’ of modern controls don’t really make any difference to them at all.
I have no idea what the devs have in mind but they have their work cut out for them
This is kinda how I've been feeling lately about it. I'm still glad there's a beginner option but trying to zone modern cammy and luke is impossible because they can just press the "no boom today" buttons. For the most part I'm happy with the system but moves have specific inputs for a reason. They are not balanced around being instant.
Yeah this why I mentioned the point at the end. I get it, but I find it odd that they add these type of control schemes in n games that reactions are super important because of restricted options
@@LordKnightfgc I’m glad you made the video dude. People are so touchy about this that it’s difficult to talk about
@@SPZ-gv2on oh hey are you a fellow Guile main? I know exactly what you mean. Can’t throw boom. Can’t use blade. Can’t whiff a button. Can’t dash up. Can’t jump in. The mental stack overload just doesn’t work as well against modern players. But they can have you on tender hooks the whole damn round.
Idk how yall classic players manage to deal with any character drive rushing at you. Game feels like it was made to be played with modern luke.
I had no idea LK was a stylish casual masher 😔 my GOAT actually the COAT 😔
3s is my favorite game and feels like one of the simplest fighters out there in terms of overall package and how you play it. If anything I feel like fighting games have become MORE complex with various new gauges, cancels, time-stops, links, etc. etc.
Modern controls are where I personally dislike some aspects of it. Modern Zangief for example.. why? It might not matter all that much at higher levels, but for casuals it's more than just destructive. I am sitting here, with my hitbox, trying to get a double 360° input that usually only works if I buffer it into something else or when I am midair, meanwhile some modern user can simply press one button and do the move..
Not claiming skill issue or trying to be confrontational but isn't that more of a you problem than for the modern player? Why try playing beyond your ability? I'm not saying not to challenge yourself for sake of improvement but I think it's a generally bad take to tell the "worse" players NO YOU GON LEARN.
I'm willing to die on the hill that most people that bought SF6 aren't ever going to make it past gold ranks and to tell those people they aren't allowed to have as much fun and do the cool moves until they really dig in and learn feels bad. There's a reason Smash is so incredibly popular and much of it comes from how new player friendly the game is on initial entry.
Does it feel a little bad when I lose to the big orange M, yeah maybe a little but that's me in my feelings about it, not objectively a right or wrong opinion
@@richardjohnson8991such a nonsensical take on competing against cheaters.
@@richardjohnson8991 it's not about making things easier to execute, it's about straight up being able to do things that are not doable on classic. Everything else is totally fine imo. But stuff like the double 360° supers being replaced by the press of a single button? That shouldn't be possible.
I have more respect for players using classic controls. It's more difficult, it takes practice and muscle memory, thus it's much cooler to me if I get absolutely destroyed by a classic player. A modern player will rarely make me appreciate it if I get stomped by them.
For accessibility reasons alone it's amazing though. There needs to be more of that. pads for disabled people are being made, controls are being adjusted, that's super cool. Curious to see how it will develop over time. I personally hope it will get better for accessibility and leave less room for exploiting it.
I know it's not the focus of the video, but invincible reversals without the inherent risk balance around the input actually tilts me despite my best efforts to try to see the devs perspective. I flat out just don't like it in games like dnf duel, p4a and bbtag. All of those have a direction agnostic, single universal reversal input that feels so thoughtless to do in most situations that it makes doing offense feel completely unfun unless you use a character with counterplay built into their basic offense structure. It's crazy how upset it makes me cuz I am more than happy to accept getting blown up trying to go for iad crossups and cheeky stagger pressure resets in xrd or under night, knowing they took the risk to try to input a reversal where I could have baited or timed my offense to hit the brief window where they gambled on the input. I just can't stomach getting hit on the first frame they're out of blockstun because its not fun to me to do airtight string, hard pause staredown, airtight string etc., knowing its way riskier to actually apply pressure and try to punish passivity than to just go back to neutral and hit them for whiffing or make them guess with a yolo approach option.
Total tangent, but special shout out to melty blood type lumina for managing to be the best feeling modern game to move and press buttons, mixup, apply pressure, block mix, use evasiveness, air footsies, whiff punish, play mind games, run oki, tech trap, spacing bait, stagger pressure, play neutral and mash rematch UNTIL one of the players remembers that the D button exists... universal frame 1, one button reversal that puts both players into instant nonconsensual rps was such a headass decision. Its actually so disgusting how good the game is until that button comes out, and I have tried to reconcile it and see kamone's vision for years and I honestly just don't care. It feels ass and despite what I'm sure are valid concerns about the strength of characters overall, I'd rather just get blown up than feel like I'm forced to choose between 1) kneecapping myself by not pressing it when its clearly the intended canned solution to any discomfort created by pressure or 2) admitting I'm pussy and pressing the safeword button at the first whiff of mixup and praying I guess more gooder than my opponent. Thankfully uni2 is around the corner and mbtl will only be the 2nd best feeling modern game (with an active online *console* community that doesn't require discord orchestration) so I won't feel the need to complain any more.
I personally do not mind motion inputs. What I hate though is stuff like special buffering. Because at that point you might aswell have one button specials and just balance the game around that. But what I want more than anything is easy access to mobility like dashes or even better runs. Stuff like wavedashing in MK or kbd in Tekken annoy the hell out of me. Why is the most basic action of all games so damn convoluted. Doing a complicated combo is cool but it is not something you have to do all the time. But movement is omnipresent and me spamming back, back, down-back... is not just annoying but also starts to hurt my fingers after a while. Oh right... it´s because that was originally unintended and now it´s "legacy skill". Why have things like legacy skill matter? I don´t get it. Isn´t the point of new games to be an evolution of the previous? If not then why even bother making new games? Just remake the same games just with better graphics if legacy skill places so high on the priority list.
Oh I can already here the army of idiots coming spamming "scrub quotes"
Try to find the middle ground to this is one of the issues, why should the legacy ability be left aside? Do the millions of players who follow a franchise not matter? Do they just evaporate with each new game? Are they less important? why should people who take the time to learn how to play the game be punished for it?
@@Zelldic27 And that is exactly it: They aren´t being punished for it. They use the skills they learned in the game they learned it for. Now there is a new game which means different stuff to learn! Why even play new games when you just want to ride the coattail of your previous achievements?
Let me give you an example: Why not make the movement in Tekken generally faster to the level where it is with KBD but not cancelable so it doesn´t get even faster. Now you have the same movement and you still need to know when to move where by which means. Just without the convolutedness. I promise you once people played that they would never want to have the old system back. Because there would still be a wide gap between how top players and low level players move. Additionally it would make balanceing the game way easier because now they can directly address movement without having to think about movement with and without KBD while adjusting the numbers.
Now let me take a step back and reiterate on why exactly I like mechanics like this more streamlined. Stuff like KBD, special buffering, etc are "glitches" which are being used to circumvent the limitations made by the devs. Limitations that are there for a multitude of reasons. One of the biggest ones being balanceing. Like it was said in the video motion inputs are there to balance the game so you can´t block while doing something or not being able to instantly perform certain actions. Now with these circumventions it isn´t about who is the best at the game anymore but the best at doing these minigames inside the game. People complain without end about single button inputs but wave absolutely busted mechanics like special buffering aside. Yes very good execution should be rewarded but not by completely destroying core limitations of the game. At that point you might aswell be playing a completely different game from everybody else because shattering core limitations like that redefines everything else the game offers. That also means that certain aspects of the game you learn become completely irrelevant because one "unintended" mechanic just beats it all. Or in the worst case even trivializes core mechanics the game is marketed around.
Lol I got into fighting games as it gets watered down. No more 6 button fighters rip.
You can still go play skullgirls
Wait Granblue Rising is axing motion inputs?
Dangit, and I was so looking forward to the game...
Out of all these, it's the one option I personally can't stand. Motion inputs are inherently so satisfying to me and removing them makes the specials immediately much less fun to use. And I thought Granblue handled specials pretty well, all things considered. But I guess it's going down the boring Project L route now.
Man, this sucks.
I belive they said theres still gonna be motion inputs, but simple inputs will no longer have penalties, simple and classic will have the same data
How they make fighting games easier ? By scrubbing them
less butttons less options tobe creative. less depth, less interest less skills
They simplify fighting games for the target audience of scrubs with 10 iq. They create characters with huge damage and endless pressure, unreact setups.
Why do you think many likes STRIVE and calls this joke game extremely balanced? Have you watched the latest tournaments and majors in the last 2 years?
dnf so bad he talks about gbfv instead
I bet Ed in SF5 was a testbed for M, but they compromised with split controls. Six button Classic will be gone in SF7
Oh no! More people can play the video games! What a travesty?
you see, the problem is that when a form of entertainment takes the road of widening it's audience it becomes tied to the feedback of an ever growing mass of uninvested consumers with low standards.
which means both it's objective quality and individualistic elements are eroded over time until it becomes bland mush.
and that process goes unimpeded because the actual reason this decision is made is not any real principle, it's just money. replacing the audience with easy to please consumers.
that's why you see traditional games getting secondary easy controls but you'll never see an easy control game get secondary traditional controls.
it's a well studied phenomenon, attracting the normies is never good for your hobby.
I think that limiting the reasoning for these decisions to just getting more money is completely ignoring the accessibility benefits that these kinds of control schemes provide players who otherwise feel alienated by these kinds of games.
I've had friends telling me that the main reason that they've picked up SF6 is primarily on the grounds that Modern allows them to play in a way that is more than just mashing and hoping for the best.
Heck even Jimquisition was singing the praises of this extra control scheme.
ruclips.net/video/lNHrPMV0yIE/видео.html&ab_channel=MaximilianDood fun lil vid in defence of "normies"
Why can't you just get better at the game ? It makes the game boring.
Because some people may not have the time or desire to dedicate to being better at a game and may just want to play it for fun? Plus boredom is a subjective experience and you can't speak for others.
I read an interview where FHKR talked about the Simple Input change and why he thought it was a good idea. He basically said that, since JP players more commonly opted for the Simple Inputs over the Classic ones, he made the cooldown change thinking it would appease everyone. He said that he didn’t expect people to get upset by that change, but it really became apparent to him that people prefer normal controls when he was at EVO and saw more foreign players pick Classic over Modern in SF6. So in my mind, it makes sense why he thought it was a good idea. He was thinking about the JP players.
I think simple inputs are the future, I think if number must go up, which is must in capital then the reality is people even needing to understand the 100s of FGC terms isa big barrier to it so simplifying controls is a great way to start evening out a little game knowledge and let people start on the ground. I think eventually mass adoption of simple controls will make it easier to switch between games too. There will still be high skill cellings.
You are as delusional as it gets. You don’t want competition or adversity. You want easy street and hope everything is made easy going forward.