Debate Review - Rogue Calvinist on Total Depravity
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Recently Warren McGrew of Idol Killer debated the man behind the @roguecalvinist RUclips Channel on @StandingForTruthMinistries. The debate proposition was "Total Depravity is True" and Scott affirmed the positive while Warren assumed the burden of the negative. To be fair to Scott, this was his first formal debate whereas it was Warren's sixth debate - his seventh if you count the open panel discussion on the Gospel Truth's channel (with Matt Slick, Vocab Malone & Chris Fisher).
Watch the full debate with Rogue: www.youtube.co...
Beware cloaked figures bearing tulips.
In this broadcast, Warren will review the events leading up to the debate, the debate itself and the subsequent fallout from that debate. This is sure to cause folks to get upset and certainly bad behavior needs called out, but remember Scott claimed to have been born again in the Fall of 2021, he has no formal training on Scripture and this is his first debate - so let's cut him some slack.
Moderated debates are a bizarre animal and learning the format, how to operate, how to prepare and present an argument, how to operate in the cross examination, when to make a closing statement... there's a lot of components to learn. Adding to this the fact that it's being broadcast live and will likely remain online for the foreseeable future, and it can be extremely stressful. No one performs perfectly in a debate. We all make mistakes, and this is all the more common the newer we are at such forums.
Did Rogue make numerous errors in debate etiquette? Absolutely. Is this something we should jump on and use to dismiss his arguments? Absolutely not. An argument needs to be considered on its merits. It must be stressed we consider the arguments as they're offered and see if they rise or fall, regardless of who is making them.
Did Rogue eisegete the text, fail to understand it and make contradictory claims? Absolutely, and this is where we should focus our attention.
Did Rogue behave poorly? His repeated claim that Warren is unregenerate and unable to understand spiritual truth was indeed poor behavior. Rogue often seemed to shut down, get frustrated, raise his voice and engage in ad hominem, failing to understand many of Warren's arguments, or avoiding them as best he could... and while this deserves calling out, we still must consider his arguments.
#Calvinism #Fatalism #gnosticism #debate
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When Calvinists tell me they re not using reason or logic I just believe them.
Did he make us alive in order to believe, or did he make us alive once we believed?
Were we in Christ before we believed?
Were we born of God before we believed, or because we believed?
I think that’s the debate, is Total Depravity (Inability) true? The text could be understood both ways.
@@mikeschaller9233, We are not dead, Why do you speak if you are dead? Spirituality dead means we are separated from God but we are still alive...
@@mikeschaller9233,
Were we in Christ before we believe? The answer is NO.
@@mikeschaller9233, Were we born of God before we believed or when we believed?
The answer is both.. Before we believe we are already born of God because we are literally the children of God speaking as an elect, because the reprobates are children of the devil.. After the fall of Adam the elect were separated from God and lost fellowship with God, But when we believe and got saved we are born again...
Pretty sure it says we were all children of wrath before be believed.
You guys are so ridiculous, arguing over nonsense. Nothing of what you say has any significance. Get a life, go out and do some good. Show some humility. Love your fellow man. Ask for mercy every day. Work out your faith in fear and trembling.
Who knows, maybe you’re a child of the devil too and are deceiving yourself.
Idol killer " I hope I dont regret this" clicks button... "i regret this already".
It be like that sometimes.
Rogue made himself look foolish. I'm sorry you're going through a difficult period Warren. I will contribute what I can and remember you in prayer.
Warren is a class act, helping to try to sow peace between the camps 👏
God bless Warren and Rogue in their situations, let’s help both of these brothers if we’re able 🙏
My mother in law once said of her Calvinist son he focus’s so much on the words he’s overlooked “The Word”
Warren, I just discovered your channel this past week through your guest appearance on Trinity Radio, and it has been a huge blessing. Praying for you through this trying time! Love you, brother.
Phillipians 3:
7¶But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
8Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
Thank you! Welcome to the channel!
@@IdolKiller you're the best example that total inability is true. You learn and learn but still blind to the truth. And teach man wisdom.
@@suganemmenaul But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere... not opposed to reason. James 3:17.
So listen to advice and accept instruction, that you may gain wisdom in the future. Proverbs 19:20
I bet Rogue would have a bit more success communicating if he showed his face. That way we could see if the frustrated and upset tone that is heard would be matched up with what his face is saying.
I agree. The grim reaper look is not advantageous. I’d rather see a human!
Please folks, if every single subscriber just donated $5 (or £5 here in the uk) we could help this man of God. Please donate, please.
Watching the debate, it occurred to me that for the Calvinists, the term regeneration is an oxymoron. You cannot regenerate what was never previously alive. To give life to something for the first time ever in its existence is generation, not regeneration. The doctrine of regeneration presumes that the person was once alive (in childhood innocence) but then became dead in sin.
@@PsychoBible yes, they're not just anti-Biblical, but anti-language
This is a perfect example of logic getting in the way of biblical understanding. Your logic is correct. But the Bible says:
1Co 15:22 (LSV) "for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all will be made alive,"
Each one of us dies in Adam. So yes, regeneration would indeed here be the correct word.
The Calvinist is using biblical language. Your issue is not they they have created an oxymoron, for the Calvinist understands this passage from corinthians.
So what is your real issue I wonder?
Logic has to be used on correct priors to be of real value, and that is why being born again so that the Holy Spirit can teach you scripture is genuinely truly necessary for a correct understanding of the scripture.
Of course, one can be born again and not read enough scripture, so frequent reading is also absolutely necessary. And frequent fervent prayer for understanding.
@@andrewmiles2370Where does it say we’re born in Adam?
@@andrewmiles2370
"Logically", the premise of your argument depends upon gnostic enlightenment as a "correct prior".
..and it's Gaslighting
@@SugoiEnglish1 * Does it have to? LOL*
Yes, the text must actually say what you want it to teach.
*The concept is clear that in Adam all died*
Not a point of dispute
If using your mind is wrong, that kind of undermines the necessity of the “renewal of your mind”. Why renew it if it’s not necessary?
So Rouge says that the babies speak in a language only God understands, but then he also claims that they are lying.
How does he know thst if only God can understand what they are saying?
Because he's so much more spiritual than anyone else 🤷🏽♂️
I guess he'll say because it says 'the liars go astray from birth' but he'll never mention the very next verse that says 'their venom is like the venom of a snake' so he'll take the first verse literally but the very next verse metaphorically, why? because he just searches the Bible for verses he can use to fit his calvinist belief.
actually it was an interesting argument for the fact that you can hear the gospel without understanding it and still be saved.
So how do babies get saved anyways?
Love you Warren! ❤
Really cool to see Provisionist Perspective with the fundraiser help for RogueCalvinist.
Praying for you and what you need from the Lord as well.
He is a Father to the fatherless, a refuge for those in need.
I heard Doug Wilson/Calvinist, in a Debate with Steve Gregg say that Common Sense and Logic must take a back seat to what the Scriptures say...It 's no wonder the Bible is so Abused by Believers...The worse of the Offenders are Calvinists who in my opinion Treat the Holy Bible as if the Scriptures were God...Since God is Spirit and the 3 Laws of Logic Immutable...The Spirit of Truth and the Laws of Logic should be understood as Eternal Qualities of God's Very Nature...If God's Nature can be described as Logic then the Subjugation of the 3 Laws to one's reading of the Bible Open the Doors of Misunderstanding Wide and lay the Foundation to Bad Theology...For the Christian who would grow in their understanding of God, Common Sense and Logic are like a Hammer and Nail to knowing God Better. All the while Bad Theology and Block Head Theologians are Nothing but Monkeys with a Wrench with God's Mighty Word. Perhaps rather than Debate we should try Prayer and Fasting...God have Mercy upon ALL who call upon the Mighty Name of Jesus Christ...Amen...
Well said. I listened to that debate today and had the same thought.
It also makes Christians look bad to atheists, they'll look at us and think why should we believe these guys when they can't even agree on what their own Bible says?
AMEN! Fervent Prayer for Calvinists! This is spiritual warfare!
Putting aside Doug Wilson, whom I also disagree with. I’m not convinced that God is bound by the laws of logic or rationality anymore than I believe Him bound by the laws of time, space, thermodynamics, life and death, etc.
I once heard William Lane Craig during a Q&A reply to the objection- If God is omnipotent could He create a rock so heavy that not even He could lift it. Dr Craig replied that there was two possibilities, either No he couldn’t assuming God is bound to logic and rationality, with the caveat that we don’t measure omnipotence as the ability to supersede Logic.
But then He said there is a second alternative- That God is not bound by the laws of logic and rationality and He could in fact make an unliftable rock, and should someone respond that this would call into question His omnipotence given that He can’t lift the rock, then God would proceed to break the laws of Logic again and Lift the unliftable rock.
Even concepts like the Trinity seem to allude to Logic being a law that we are bound by not God. Just a thought
May the Lord open your eyes!
Logic being in the backseat means scripture is driving. Logic cannot be driving. Logic can and should be used in the service of rightly understanding scripture, according to the terms set by scripture, but it cannot ever be used with mere "common sense" to set the terms for understanding scripture, lest we lead ourselves utterly astray.
The thumb nail is perfect. Rogue's avatar may as well look like it
Praying for both of you guys! I shouldn’t be, but I’m amazed at how the devil attacks every Christian.
Calvinism is another gospel... nowhere near scripture & is to be refuted per: the many commands of scripture warning against false doctrine/teachings contrary to scripture.
Such as "Individuals are born doomed from the womb to a certain death and are to glorify Him (God) by their destruction" - John Calvin
Unfortunately, it's going to sound a bit confrontational at times. We must put our Big-Boy pants on & engage accordingly.
@@SugoiEnglish1 "Individuals are born doomed from the womb to a certain death and are to glorify Him (God) by their destruction" - John Calvin (one of many assanighn, arrogant, unbiblical assertions from him).
Compare to Luke 9:56 (if an ardent Calvinist, you most likely use the ESV, therefore you it's vs 55), also see Hebrews 2:9, Titus 2:11, 1 John 2:2, Romans 5:18 (there are many more similar). Calvinists use cult-like work arounds for these clear cogent passages making God appear to be an illiterate imbecile, unable to communicate, inspire & preserve His word to us (such as the butchery of John 1:12, 3:16, Ephesians 1, Romans mid-9 to attempt to contradict God & validate Calvinism...not saying you do).
Ex-Calvinists, bring this up in their testimonies quite often.
"May the peace of God guard your heart and mind, and the God of peace guard your family and home."
I would be very interesting to get RC's definition of exegesis. I'm assuming he would have to say exegesis is knowledge given by the Spirit to the elect, or to the regenerate? So when he asks you to exegesis a passage AND he assumes you are not regenerate, is that a 'got you' moment for him? I really, really didn't get the 'I'm enlightened and you are not' statements...
“We aren’t born 6” was the best part of the debate
I'm not saying this to attack him, but I honestly think Rogue has some sort of mental issue, or a learning disability of some sort. I pray that he will stop trying to teach people, and instead that he would just stick to learning and seeking God.
In a recent comment, Rogue affirmed that he is on the spectrum - “Big time” is what he said.
If you look into what "mind" means when we're told to love God with all our minds, it actually means to think through to the other side. Critical thinking. When we look at anything claiming to be truth we are to use critical thinking in order to understand the logical outcome of having that belief.
Warren, I've been following your channel for years and have really appreciated the your thoughtful approach to searching the Scriptures to be sure that your previously held beliefs are actually what is being taught. Your channel has been a huge blessing to me as I have come into adulthood and been introduced to various strains of theology, trying to make sense of it and stick to what is biblical without being divisive towards others I disagree with. Thank you for being a great example!
On a note more related to this particular video, specifically the definition of "carnally minded" in 1 Cor 2:14, I know 1 Cor 3:1-3 is about as explicit of a definition of carnally minded as you can get, but I came across another passage which further supports being fleshly as having a mind set on things of the flesh and that someone can be in this carnally minded state even after being able to receive/accept spiritual things. Last night I was reading in Mark and came across the passage in Mark 8:27-33 (paralleled in Matt 16:13-23) where Peter first declares Jesus is the Christ, then in the next section, Jesus rebukes Peter for not wanting Him to go to Jerusalem to die.
In the Matthew version, Jesus tells Peter that the knowledge that He is the Christ "Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven." (Matt 16:17) which shows Peter is able to receive/accept/believe information from God. Then in the rebuke, Jesus says "... For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man." (Mark 8:33). Regeneration is not mentioned in this passage, but it does show that someone who is able to receive information from God later sets his mind on "things of man" which is additional support to the interpretation that 1 Cor 2:14 is referring to immature believers, not unbelievers.
I may have missed it, but I don't remember anyone ever bringing up Jesus' rebuke of Peter in the context of being carnally minded, so I thought you might find this interesting.
I pray the Lord's Blessings and comfort for you in the current difficulties!
I will really pray for you. I am truly sorry about what is happening. It breaks my heart when a marriage falls apart. It hurts so many people.
I pray God heals your heart.
It is q arrogant for a new believer to think they are perfect in doctrine knowledge and ready to start a ministry. That's why there are so many false ministers, like Isaiah saldivar who bragged about being new and choking a woman during deliverance. Unfortunately not everyone is able to humble themselves and show the love of God to others. They don't even realize they behave with the moral superiority like the Pharisees.
You could argue with someone who is mature and disagrees, but i feel for a spiritually immature person, they will only react childishly every time, and might also cause your own flesh to engage and turn it into an ego competition, and i wonder if it will also influence the viewers to react in the flesh and think badly or react badly about another Christian. It'll be wiser and more mature to just give a short summary and pray for this calvinist.
I really appreciate what you were trying to do. He does typical things an immature person does. It’s difficult to make any headway, as he is conflating wanting to be right with acting in a mature and reasonable way. We all have our issues, but it’s often harder to discern these when you’re young.
I had a young lady in the faith who reminds me of rogue she has done the same thing with defending a doctrine they don't fully understand. So they believe some how if they use all scriptures when they speak they can't be wrong
"Bruce..."
"I'm Batman"
"But you're literally Bruce Wayne"
"I'm Batman"
"Who is really Bruce Wayne"
"I'm Batman. Don't call me Bruce"
"But that's your real name"
"I'm outta here"
Rogue saying he doesn't use his mind, and that all his revelation is from God, reallllllllly reminds me of some of the claims made by those in the Word of Faith camp.
It could be his background? Mentioned being raised Pentecostal...I know there's a distinction, but in my neighborhood there's a lot of overlap between Pentecostal and Word of Faith🤷🏻♀️
I think a better understanding of Psalm 51:5 is that it's hyperbole. Every other verse in Psalm 51 is hyperbole, so why isn't verse 5 one as well? He's just saying that his guilt is so intense and deep over what he did that it feels like it goes all the way back to moment he was conceived. I don't see any reason to think he was conceived as the result of a sinful act. (I posted something similar to this on twitter)
@chasep2001 I hear you and a poetic hyperbole is far more reasonable than wooden literal.
@@IdolKiller If you're ever up in the Woodstock/Kennesaw area, let me know, I'll take you out to lunch. Not Wendy's though because we might have to break fellowship over my view on Frosties. 😀
Brother I will pray for you I’m concerned. Did you say a chocolate shake is better than vanilla? This should be a condemned opinion and God help your tastebuds!
For real though I will pray for your hard situation you’re going through. I’ve been going through an unrelated but also painful situation the last year which has been terrifying and painful, but it has massively grown my compassion and love for others. I hope all ends well with your situation.
That gofundme for Rogue Calvinist was from November 2023 and in the description he said his car broke down a year ago from then (2022), and he gets his financial aid money on June 1st.. I'm not sure if donating to this is the wisest use of money; seems like a job would cure most of his plight and, according to him (at least for LAST year), he got "paid" on June 1st.
Uhhh, what are you talking about?
@@IndianaJoe0321 The gofundme for Rogue Calvinist to which Warren referred.
@@jasonelliott1722 Oh!!
@@jasonelliott1722 RC has previously expressed that, because he is a single father, finding a job that works well with his schedule is extremely difficult. It is also part of the reason why he hasn't gone to church - He has expressed that finding a way to get there with no car is very difficult.
I'm not trying to make excuses one way or another, but to say that RC feels overwhelmed with what is going on right now. He frequently asks for donations on his community page, so it seems he does believe that he needs it.
I don't know his situation, but I do know he is overwhelmed and being a single parent is hard. I hate the man's rhetoric, but I feel tugged by his plight.
I'm pentecostal and I thought your joke was funny.
Thanks for the mentions of the Catena Bible. That looks awesome!
I love it. Especially the Chrysostom, Nazianzus and Nyssa quotes, but that's also where I found Epiphanius the Latin and other great sources.
Rouge is a “novice” as Paul wrote. You’re 100% right about being thorough with the faith journey. I’ve come to the conclusion that the EO is my jam, however, it took me years to get there. I’m just an EO enquirer at this point but your point remains. Rouge seems like a classic case of jumping the gun. I feel bad for him because I’ve been that guy. Fortunately for me it was before the internet.
Burn on earth is not consistent with Christ but it is def consistent with Calvin…
I think Warren’s statement “ I was a Christian despite my Calvinism” is accurate. A super consistent Calvinist cannot be assumed to be a follower of Christ. The fruit just aren’t the same. Praying for rogue, his family, and your family too Warren 🙏🏾
One of the most beautiful lessons I learned when I came to the understanding that exhaustive foreknowledge is nonsense, is that God suffers profound heartbreak over sin. He knows genuine disappointment when someone chooses to rebel.
I knew and loved God from a young age and knew He was good and trusted His hand. I was never angry with God for the things I went through but I did sometimes question why He would allow me to marry a man that He knew would be so horrible and abusive. Then one day I understood that God truly knows what rejection feels like on a level we will never know. When those whom He loves and gave Himself for, choose to never return that love to Him, He feels that rejection and loss. He told me that when others sin against me, when they break my heart, they break His too. He grieves over sin. And yet He is so loving, so patient, so good! It strengthened my resolve to live my life in a way that pleased Him. I don’t want to bring His heart any more pain or grief. I want to be one who His heart delights in. It’s the least we can do in response to His love.
I’ve also learned that in those moments of suffering when we don’t know how we are going to get through it, He shows up in the most profound ways. He is still the fourth man in the fire. He’s so faithful.
His grace is sufficient. The greater the need the more grace He supplies.
I don’t deserve His goodness. It may sound cliche to some when believers say God is good! But I have known Him my whole life. I was born again at 5 and I’m now 45 and I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that God is good! I can sing “all my life He has been faithful! All my life He has been so so good! With ever breath that I am, I will sing of the goodness of God!”
He’s a beautiful God! I’m sorry if I’m ranting. I just wish everyone truly knew and experienced just how magnificent and wonderful He is! He has kept me.
Had it not been for His grace and faithfulness, I would be dead or insane. The enemy fights dirty. He’s playing for keeps. He’s still no match for my God. My Heavenly Father takes care of His own!
Praying for you.
My experience has shown me that people that teach doctrines of devils.
They'll eventually start acting like the devil.
Hello Warren. I am a regular to your channel, love your input, you're a funny guy and I think we would get on well. So what I say is meant as a brother in Christ who appreciates what you do.
I don't think engaging with this man (I refuse to use his alias) was very wise. Debate by all means. James White, Doug Wilson or whoever, but a man who doesn't go by his name and hides his face, showing instead some dark figure in a cloak? Seriously?
This is very strange behaviour, showing a tendancy toward narcissism.
Add to that he is a Christian of just 3 years, and he thinks so highly of himself to engage in this sort of thing.
In my humble opinion this was never going to end well.
Anyway, wishing you all the best in Christ.
Calvinist's worship the same spirit as Islam.
Is it possible to get 1000 of us here to help our brother by giving $35?
I think that’s possible
I donated. It was the least I could do, given all the great content that has been produced for this channel.
This was really fun to watch! Thank you for destroying Rogue Calvinist! This is tongue and cheek only because when I have tried to interact with him his arguments were incoherent then and still now incoherent.
The debate was hard to watch. I kind of wish I was there to watch it live so that I wouldn't have the impulse to skip what Rogue Calvinist was saying because what he was saying was mostly rubbish.
I am glad I am not the only Christian who understands that to destroy Calvinism is to start with Unconditional election which then connects to the other tenets of total depravity, limited atonement, irresistible grace and preservation of the saints.
To practice patience in the context of a debate or a deep conversation is to understand philosophy practices like the socratic dialogue.
I also like to approach the problem of Calvinism by insisting that the definitions they are using are not universally accepted across the board. For instance their usage of foreknowledge, predestination and free will are used in a way that is not conducive for conversation.
Free will is not compatible with God's sovereignty hence Free will is not compatible with predeterminism.
However Free will and foreknowledge is compatible and this is the idea that I talk about to distinguish between people other who willy nilly say that they are compatibilists. James White is not a compatibilist who is consistent with his Calvinism.
That song you made at the end of your show was really good.
@mikefoht2738 thank you!
Warren I would love for you to do a video if you haven't already on what you said about being "in Adam", and in particularly about Augustine's roll in traditional thought on the matter.
1:32:09 this is such a good point
I compromise with Wendy’s , I get the five dollar biggie bag with a jr bacon and a small chocolate frosty, baconator is like an entire days worth of calories and more importantly it leaves no room for frosty
I was surprised to hear you reference your financial need as some impossible amount. You act as if our Father is not the owner of the Silver and Gold, as if He doesn’t feed the birds and clothe the flowers and values us much more than these, as if He is not able to meet your every need.
If you believe you shall see the glory of God
What’s worse is the fact that much older and more seasoned men have the same tactics as Rouge. The only difference is experience. There are “old heads” out there that have honed their intellectually dishonest “skills” and that’s worse than anything Rouge has done to date. Also, love your perspective and I have high hopes that you will at least take a really good look at the east.
The District/Quarterly I'm ordained in provides classes for those who answer the call to preach. So we don't necessarily think you need seminary, but absolutely believe you should be led and taught before preaching scripture.
I never skip the intro when I watch late.
I believe that we should say to Scott's face that we doubt his salvation because of his frequent comments about hating people who claim to be Christians. It does him no good for us to say that he might be a Christian if the fruit indicates otherwise. If he is confronted, he might give thought to it and if he isn't saved then he might repent and accept Christ. If he's already saved, then being confronted with his attitude will not change that. But the worst thing that can happen is that he will think that he is saved when he is not.
Anyone else from Czechia?
Seriously? Woah! That's cool
Your channel is far reaching...Listening and following along from South Africa 🇿🇦 wish I could donate, but our money is worth nothing😢
@@AnniEast South Africa? That's awesome! So encouraging
The CSB Ancient Faith Study Bible is a bound bible that has footnoted quotes from theologians from the first 5 centuries. They are noted by verse/passage. I have found it very insightful.
Some are saying Rogue retracted his statement when he just deleted ot. A retracted statemenrment is renounced and the otiginal position is clarified.
@@Richard_Rz precisely
Rogue did retract his statement regarding wanting IK to go to hell. It's still up on his YT Community page.
@@Narikku that's good
@@NarikkuDid he retract the other thousands of abhorrent statements he’s made and repent from Calvinism?
@@JohnK557 No, just the one statement. Feel free to look at his channel to see which statements he still affirms!
We love you, Warren! Could I suggest reaching out to a guy named Jeff Younger. He's an Orthodox Christian and has gone through some serious shit. It's probably somewhat similar to you. And I think he's pretty reachable.
In other news, would you be open to a stream on the Trinity? Or talking with a Biblical Unitarian? Understand if you don't want to go into that topic.
Perhaps Paul Vendredi could come back on? Praying for you Warren.
Fire intro
I left a message on your GiveSendGo - & when I get paid next week, I want to donate, at least $5. I'm broke & in a tough situation, but nowhere near as desperate as yours seems to be. (I'm unexpectedly pregnant & have medical issues that pregnancy is going to exacerbate, so I'm afraid, but I love my baby already & plan to see through whatever comes my way with this. We already had a miscarriage scare, but LOTS of people prayed on Twitter, & I honestly think it worked, & the ER confirmed my baby is alive, heart beating, & found the likely cause of the bleeding, God is good.) And so, I have to at least give something, so I'm commenting here too so I don't forget. I'll share it as well. How long until you need to get to your goal? You're so close.
You will be in my prayers, as will your precious babies. I'm so sorry you all are going through this, whatever exactly is happening, it sounds heart-wrenching. I hope the right thing happens.
I also hope RC's issue gets better for him too, as much as I disagree with him, I'd hate to see anything bad happen to the guy.
@@zzevonplant please keep that donation for yourself and just lift me up in prayer. I truly appreciate the offer, but I don't feel right accepting it. I'll pray for you and your baby as well. Thank you so much
I recall in your debate that Rogue Calvinist sounded... I don't know. I ended up empathetic toward him. I hope he doesn't get discouraged.
I mean, he SHOULD be discouraged from being someone that's trying to teach online.
@@christian_gamer_guy6447 It looks like he is trying to raise two young boys on his own and hoping that the RUclips channel will assist them to achieve a meagre existence. I think it's sad that people are in those circumstances at all. We have to wait for heaven before life is happy for the majority.
@@Old_Catholic Yeah, I understand. However, we should be wary of becoming a teacher, as they will receive harsher judgement.
2:14:57 next time you do this hit CTRL and + a few times and zoom in on those comments. Can’t read! 😜
I was talked about and referenced much today.
Does that make me influential?
@1:51:00 onwards for about 5 minutes you address how Rogue thought you were accusing him of holding his children in contempt, looking at them in disdain as they cry out in need for him.
Warren you were failing to differentiate between Rogue believing that’s what scripture teaches about babies and how God views them vs. …
… how Rogue in real life application sees them.
Rogue did not say he looks on his children like that.
He said God does and God’s Word does.
That’s what he believes about God’s Word, but that doesn’t then also mean that Rogue also looks at his children like that.
But that’s what you were accusing him of.
Instead you should’ve just called out his inconsistency and focused on how Rogue views his own children better than how God views them.
You should’ve focused instead on asking him if he loves his children more than God does, and that despite his belief that God’s Word says babies who cry are sinning and selfish; he actually doesn’t view his kids the way scripture does.
So you were basing your criticism off the false assumption that Rogue lives out his personal life in the same way as what he believes scripture says.
Rogue doesn’t think that about his own kids, he just believes that’s what scripture teaches.
So Rogue does not believe about his kids what he believes scripture teaches.
I think you should’ve highlighted that disconnect.
I just watched your last debate. It was such a trainwreck from the beginning to the end. I really hope that Rogue can grow in his ability to critically analysis the prevalent information.
On a personal note, i really have no idea who you are or what your story is. Regarding your custody dispute i genuinely hope and pray that God will order what is best for all parties involved and especially your children. Divorce truly is a terrible thing. As a outside observer who really has no idea what is going on in your life, I still feel it necessary to stare that this channel is the least important thing for you to manage at the moment. If I'm out of line or off base then I am and you can disregard what I'm saying, but from one brother to another I just want to encourage you that God is far more concerned with the affairs of your family than your channel (nor that it isn't very important kingdom work).
I hope that despite my inability to know if this information is relevant that you can see my heart for you as a fellow believer. I'll be praying for you.
Also, I think a good follow-up debate topic would be "Is logic a sinless faculty?" Or something to that extent
A question for rogue (if there is a next time) might be.... since your position in this debate has been that because you're regenerated and have the right understanding of this passage, and presumably every passage, and perhaps a logical deduction from that statement would be all who have been regenerated have the same 'right understanding' of all of scripture, do you only go to church to hang out? If you enter the building already having all there is of spiritual edification upon regeneration, which is essentially the position you've taken on this passage for some reason, where does it stop?
The idea that your brain is not the thing processing the information on these pages but rather it's the spirit doing it infallibly seems to be a special pleading of immense hubris. AND, what if you're wrong? What if this passage and your perceived 'objective truth' you see contained therein (Psalm 58:3 @1:20:20) is actually not there. What if instead, your devotion to the doctrines of grace over scripture cause you to see things in the text that were never intended by the authors?
In all seriousness I believe he is delusional. If what he says is true then only those who believe exactly like him are regenerated, which I think might exclude Calvin himself
1:13:00 ish. All the tecnical issues.. about a segment with lots of tecnical issues.
Like, is it just that someone put there really, really doesnt want this discussed or what?
The most snake bit exchange i can think of honestly.
One tip I was told is to sort comments by newest first. Sometimes the comment won't appear otherwise.
I can't tell if it is deliberate suppression by the back end of youtube, or a technical error that trips the suppression.
Had any one heard from the cage stage guy lately, is he ok, it seems he also has some personal stuf happening that needs Gods intervention ?
midnight and i just got done watching the debate. RC was painful to listen to. i hope you get saved(elected....ed) Warren 😂
As long as you treat the person and dominion of death as an anthropomorphism, the total depravity debate will continue to enuse. Death is the person that we fear, so as to drive our emotional state toward sin. Jesus calls us to shift our fear from Death to God, based on the hope of the resurrection, which he demonstrated to be within his domain of authority.
Death is a being, and Satan's enforcer, intimidating us toward obedience to him as a taskmaster. The Law is our tutor to demonstrate this problem, and why we need salvation through one who came from above this dominion. We are in bondage to sin, through the fear of death, because we are all bound in Adam's nature--not to merely sin, but to not of our own power to be able to resist the power of sin. The fact that we all died in Adam due to his sin, is based on the same arguement that Levi tithed while in the loins of Abraham. In this much, Reformed Theology is true. But they go to far in holding our weakness against sins power to be an entire animosity toward God in every facet of our being. Rather, our fear of death and God's command to fear him are at odds, and we find ourselves restrained against obedience to the command through a lack of evidence of the hope of resurrection. But thanks be to Christ, we have that hope demonstrated, through the faith given to ALL men, when Christ was raided from the dead. Therefore, if we beleive in the resurrection of Christ, we have the right to be born from above, as Christ came from above, and by this new nature, to be freed from the power of sin, which bondage we inherited through our natural birth in Adam.
I listen to these debates, and I alwyas hear two wrong ideas, with the audience left to choose which is better. Warren treats our inherited penalty to Adam as being limited merely to death itself. Rogue treats it as the penalty is to be able to do nothing but sin. Both are unscriptural extremes. We are in bondage to sin, which I feel Warran does little to justify. But we are also able to reckognize this state through the Law, apart from regeneration, whcih Rogue and the Reformers reject. The rejection of one treates the new birth as merely a return to an earlier state of our original nature, effectively annulling the meaning of gennēthē anōthen (born from above), which the English bibles erronous translated as "born again." The term is "born from above," which means that, contrary to our original birth, in which our body and soul had their origin within space time, within the Adamic nature, which was itself already sold under sin, we now are born again from eternity, having the origin our spirit from a divine nature, and thereby alike to Christ in his incarnation. It is this change of nature, (and not merely a change of mind), that allows us freedom from the power of sin.
I do not feel that Warren sufficiently expresses this real change of nature, going beyond Scripture to refute Reformed Theology. It is not enough to return to the state of a little child. We must recieve a new heart with new desires, so as not to simpy return to a life of sin, being still in bondage to sin through the fear of death. It is this change that the Roman Catholic fundamentally denies, treating the new nature as a "do over" rather than a fundamental change of nature, and treating baptismal regeneratoin as a mere cleansing to be temporarily indwelt by the Holy Spirit. They fundamentally deny the new birth, and treat conversion in the exact way that Warren seems to. In truth, every OT saint, including apsotates like Saul, had been filled with the Spirit in this temporary sense. But none of them were regenerated in the inner man, born from above of a new and divine nature in the inner man. It is this reality that the Reformed misapply to those filled with the Spirit (like John the Baptist), and which Warren effectively denies in his beliefs on the nature of being in bondage to sin. John the Baptist was indeed filled with the Spirit, but Jesus said that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven are greater than him. Why? Because they ware born form above, and John was merely the greatest born of woman. I do not hear Warren or any non-Calvinists using this deathblow to Calvinism effectively.
Last week I did a live stream where I was calling out 7th Day Adventist for obvious lies a teenage and promoting a false prophet. But I did not like how I came across in the video and I wish I would have taken an approach similar to the one you took with Rogue Calvinists or you're just discussing everything very calmly despite how he may have gaslighted you or attempted to or the lies he said about you. I hate that I spent almost an hour and a half making a video that was pretty good as far as arguments go, only to not deliver it in a way that would be most receivable.
See your video reaffirmed a lot of things I had going on in my own mind about myself.
I'll see what I can do to help promote your channel and hopefully help you raise some more funds
@@chrislucastheprotestantview thank you Chris
I would say this, during your time of hardship, if you ever later on after all of this is over with that you decide to remarry latter, I say DO NOT (Luke 16:18, Matthew 5:32).
@dragonore2009 I believe I am free to do so, given my study of the matter, but am unsure I would want to. Broken trust of this magnitude is world changing.
*Soli Deo Gloria?* But... Are you sure you're not giving the glory to yourself?
*Calvinist* friend, why did God choose you?
You are smart, you know well that it wasn’t a draw. The idea is just… ridiculous.
Therefore… there is only one logical option left, right?
And your heart knows it very well. God must have seen something special in you.
But there is a BIG problem with that “god” of yours:
It’s *UNBIBLICAL.*
We know that God doesn’t have favorites. He is no respecter of persons. (Romans 2:11).
Therefore, it is *impossible* that God chose you because of something in you. You are not worth a cent more than anyone else. The only reason He did, it's because He knew your response to his call. (Romans 8:29).
Just like you wouldn't go out on the street to pick a woman to force her to be your wife without her consent, Jesus isn't going to do it.
(Free will).
"... Many are called, but few *chosen.* "
(Matthew 20:16)
How terrible is that you don't care distorting God's character just so you can feel “special”, better than others, chosen!
Because… let's be reasonable, a “god” who, being able to choose, chose the vast majority of human beings to be destroyed in hell, without any option for salvation, is not loving, merciful, or good*.
He is not the God of the Bible.
Therefore, let us be *VERY CAREFUL* ,lest while trying to give glory to God, we are found to be liars.
“ *For the heart is wicked and deceitful above all things.* ”
(Jeremiah 17:9).
Where do you place regeneration, step 1 or step 2?
Colossians 2:12 NKJV
[12]
Step 1 = buried with Him in baptism,
in which
Step 2 = you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
This chapter has several ways to describe salvation. 1 is where he says we were circumcised(vs 11) another when Christ was nailed to the cross(vs 14- 15), another when the power of God raised us to life because He was raised from the dead(vs12), and lastly...the biggest moment of salvation happens because God has forgiven us of our sins(vs 13)
All these verses are metaphorical examples of vs 13.
Salvation comes through forgiveness of sins. Baptism is a metaphorical illustration of Christ's death and resurrection.
Forgiveness of sins is spiritual circumcision.
Forgiveness is our sins getting nailed to the cross.
Answer to your question.
Regeneration is before step 1.
Because forgiveness of sins is what all these metaphorical examples stems from.
@filmscorelife4225 You stated that regeneration is before step 1. Then by your own admission regeneration precedes faith. Because step 2 is clearly when faith starts.
@@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg I said before step one based on your description and choices. Forgiveness of sins is regeneration. A person has to first repent before God forgives.
@filmscorelife4225 Again, if it's BEFORE step 1, then it is BEFORE 2 where faith starts.
And this isn't my description, I posted SCRIPTURE. I asked a question about biblical text. I didn't state anything in my own words.
@@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg Step 1 and 2 isn't a consecutive sequence. You are treating it that way.
So, Psalm 51 starts with David's confession of sin, and then the Pelagian suggests that verse five, in context, is David deviating from his confession to complain to God, saying, "I have failed and sinned, besides, my mother was a slut..." like that makes any sense with the context.
@jeffpaton9667 do you understand the context of Psalm 51? If so it makes perfect sense.
Watch my livestream on Total Depravity, with the black and white thumbnail featuring Calvin. Look in the comments and you'll see the timestamp where I go into detail on this.
@@IdolKiller I fully understand the context, and it is not David calling his mother a slut.
@@IdolKiller Perfect sense and context is that David was confessing his sin and unworthiness before God. That is, unless you think the spiritual answer is to excuse your sins by throwing your mother under the bus.
@jeffpaton9667 the grammar is clear. His mother sinned. His mother conceived.
@@IdolKiller The grammar is not clear, and the idea that excusing one's sin by calling your mother a hoar, fails.
The context is a confession of sin. "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; in sin hath my mother conceived me," which continues the context of David's sin, not his mother's sin. Clearly, there is a connection to David's sinfulness by his own confession.
Since it literally says “raised up through faith” it seems to me you must be raised up through faith.
Besides, you’re going to start at 2:12… what about the words Paul already spoke?
1:3- We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus
1:23 - if indeed you continue in the faith firmly grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.
2:5-7 - For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good order and the stability of your faith in Christ. Therefore as you received Christ Jesus the Lord so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and being built up in Him, and having been established in your faith-just as you were instructed-and abounding with thanksgiving.
Then in verses 2:11-12 Paul compares baptism to circumcision of the spirit, as joining Christ in death to our flesh, and being “raised through faith”.
Then verse 13 elaborates that He makes you alive “in Him”.
So what do you think, did Paul think faith was step 1? Or baptism? Or regeneration?
Trick question! Paul’s true step one is Christ died and rose again, giving us the gospel and fulfilling Gods promise to mankind. But then what does Paul think is OUR step 1 to become part of the kingdom?
Belief/faith. Repent. Regeneration. Period.
@@SugoiEnglish1 1 John 5:1 - you are born of God, because you believe. For example.... Your stomach is full because you have eaten! Understand.
AmberM is blocking people an putting people in time out for no reason thought id let you know
For no reason?
Uh
.. amber is a class act.
What did you do that was foolish?
32 minutes in and I've lost count of the number of times you have utterly misrepresented RC, his arguments, character, responses, and reasons.
It's hard to believe at this point, given how clear he has been in addressing each of these (because none of your misrepresentations are new) that you are not wilfully lying.
Please let me be wrong about that, and instead that it is something else, like you just being over confident in thinking you understand.
Because to hear you sound in manner very reasonable, but in words say things which are really quite obnoxiously untrue, is hard for me to listen to, and I'm not the guy you're talking about. No wonder he has been so upset.
It comes across like you are trying to veneer yourself with a surface layer of gentlemanly conduct, and given that you're not actually addressing (so far) his issues at all, it seems very false indeed.
State two things, where RC has been misrepresented by Warren.
Just two things, plain and simple.
Please provide at least 1 specific example of the misrepresentation. Time stamp preferred. Or at least provide a quote of the misrepresentation that Warren allegedly perpetuates.
I'll give you a heads up. An entailment is not the same as an affirmation. Warren might allege an entailment, while it is not affirmed by RC. This is normal. It is RCs job to show why the entailment doesn't follow, he has to provide evidence for it to be false since Warren provided evidence for why it is true. That evidence can't be an assertion of misrepresentation or a statement that does not address the contention.
@@andrewmiles2370 as the others have asked, I too am asking. Please provide specific examples of the alleged misrepresentations.
@@IdolKiller first off my complements on the video and trying to help RC.
One way in which you seem to misunderstand what he has said is intellectual ascent Vs a changed heart \ new heart \ born again \ regeneration.
Total inability AFAIK refers to the will not logic although logic can be fallen to.
Hence an unregenerate person may intellectually understand that sitting on the chair of Gods grace is morally desirable but simply not want to. So they stand under thier own power.
The regenerate will actually desires to recline where God says to sit.
So yes an unregenerate man can understand the need for God.
The point being made is that an unregenerate man will not call jesus lord in their heart via the holy spirit. Even though they are more than capable of making the sounds of the words and understanding their meaning.
Thus "total depravity" or "total inability" of man, not total stupidity of man
Assuming so much ill intent from those you disagree with seems exhausting.