Deep squatting, with correct technique and appropriate progression of loads, is not dangerous. It won’t automatically lead to degeneration as some say. . @orthopedicspecialists with the opening stitched video & @muscleandmotion with the amazing anatomy graphics.
@SquatUniversity hello doctor. Can you please list the books which you have read or recommend for understanding of biomechanics,movement and disorders which I can use to start to delve deeper in my understanding of these topics. Any help is much appreciated. And your videos helped me a great deal in the gym ❤❤
He's seeing all the cases where it went wrong, not taking into account the 99% of other people he doesn't see who do it right. He's talking from experience not giving reasoning or good argumentation. Our body is adaptable and if we progress in a slow and stimulating way we can do so many things that are beneficial to our health
This is an orthopedic surgeon saying deep squat can cause the patellar tendon to rupture vs squat university saying it wont cause long term damage. They are arguing two different things.
I have been lifting since the early 90s. We were always told not to deep squat it was bad for us. A few years ago I fell on a rock while recreating and did some minor damage to my left knee. After that, every time I squated I would end up with tendinitis in my knee. For a year or so I stopped leg day all together. Then I read that if you deep squat it can help strengthen the tendins. So I started squating deep and deep knee stretcheing several times a day. I can now squat 315 10 times and I have no kneee problems. I can actually sit in a squat position without pain and I couldn't do thay before I fell.
Always good to hear rehab testimonies. I had a bad/weak knee but can now be completely relaxed in the deep squat position as well. It's way more comfortable that way.
Reputable surgeons should not be giving out "general" advice to people. It's misleading. Sure this may be true for some but not for all. Stay in the surgery room, that's your expertise. Leave rehab to PTs...
I love that last slip in “with the appropriate loads”. So many people overload their quads. You can tell because they start shaking like a leaf and the depth doesn’t matter. I say if your first and last rep are changing then the load is too heavy. Lighten it up and stick with what works for me. Eventually my body will tell me the load is too light and then I can add the weight.
This is the comment. Everyone* should read this and approach the gym like it. *Except powerlifters, Olympic lifters or advanced lifters (people training for more than a decade); those likely know how much to get away with or have no choice but doing their maximum in specific scenarios.
If you're shaking it's likely that your stabilizing muscles are too weak to do their job. Lightening the load and focusing on form is one way to fix this.
Your last rep should definitely not be as easy as your first rep. The weight should be “easy” on the first few reps and gradually get harder the more reps you do. Your muscles won’t grow and you won’t build strength if not even the last rep is difficult
@@GiggityG this sounds like everyone before they discover the Larry wheels curse. Going hard is given. Going hard that breaks form is a best guess. Best guess if you did something to your bones, cartilage or muscles that it wasn’t able to do anatomically.
Orthopaedic surgeons are notoriously fit though 😂 they have to be strong for the surgeries they do, you can find videos of them hammering rods into bones with an insane level of force. Of all the specialties, orthopaedic surgeons are by far the most fit on average lol
@@rmp5640It’s cool to see you spamming this through the comment thread. Your low effort copy paste is probably making the opposite point you want for anyone who notices.
Probability and actuality are hard to swallow. Sport science is based on research, but the doctor has experience. You are safe if you do proper techniques, including progressive overload, but ego lifters need to be admired
@@Milanoryou would be surprised how often doctors are wrong. Most doctors are medical nerds and obsess with the latest research paper they read or whatever the last pharmaceutical salesman told them. Very few doctors have good critical thinking. If you have a typical case, almost any doctor would be good for you, but if you have an unusual situation, good luck getting the proper treatment.
@@Milanorto be fair, doctors know too much for their own good. They learn micro information through paragraphs in textbooks and their experience from doctors that stopped taking in new info. For example, the birthing world proved many things in the 50s yet doctors are passing outdated misinformation through disgruntled doctors
So the key words here is “correctly done squats.” Half the time people are either going too fast or too quick with training. Slow and steady keeps the doctor away.
Firstly, the first reference is too old and too small to make such interpretations. Specially in comparison to the magnitude of papers correlating deeper squats to increased patellar stress and degeneration. Secondly, in the 2007 paper, the sample size is very small; the mesurement of knee moment is imprecise due to the lack of an appropriate inverse dynamics analysis (the dynamometer itself is not enough); the paper actually concluded the opposite of your statement, regarding cartilage adaptation to training (no or minimal correlation was found between loading and thickness - not saying that appropriate loading is not important for cartilage health); the evidence in the study point towards more muscle correlated to thicker cartilage, but it is impossible to conclude causality in an cross sectional study. Athletes with better quality and thicker cartilage could be less suceptible to injury, thus improving their mantanance in weightlifting activities. Pain and injury can be a form of fundamental selection of individuals capable of sustaining stress activities without pain, possibly due to better cartilage. And finally, the last paper (2013) is a literature review of papers usually 30-50 years old. The argument of an "unfounded statement" is refering to quad tendon stress increase, and not the patellofemoral. In order to reach adequate inferences about joint stress, appropriate kinetic analysis is necessary. There were few and very old papers, usually with small sample sizes and variable muscle cross sectional areas, regarding actual kinetic data of deep squats indicating an protective value. Biomechanical databases where non existant at the time, and anthropometric values were at high risk of bias. Again, the is a lack of longitudinal studies able to confirm an protective value. On the other hand, modern databases can confirm that deeper squats can increase patelofemoral stress. Aditionally, more kinetic studies, using modern and established databases, regarding the "wraping effect" are still necessary to confirm its possible influence in the extensor mechanism articular contact area.
Please clarify your stance. Are you saying there are not enough good studies to justify either side of the argument? I tend to be a common sense person and common sense tells me the body will adapt appropriately to reasonable demands on it.
@@Jahsurfer some tissues will adapt to training, but cartilage will not. Its a dna lottery when it comes to cartilage. And while you can train and adapt your joints to maintain their correct dynamic function under load, reducing the risk of injury due to poor biomechanical function, your cartilage in itself can only endure or cope with the stress applied to it. It wears out throughout life time and cannot be replenished. For a fix load, the compression force in the patela increases with the angle of joint flexion, by several orders of magnitude (its exponencial). Simple geometry proves this! Thus the risk of premature wear or accute injury also increases. That is what the doctor is talking about. So when the video implies that it is in fact healthier even at high loads it could not be further from the truth. That is not saying that full mobility at reduced loads may not be beneficial to most individuals, granted they do not have any specific limitation issue.
Good info as always. Perhaps deep squats are more dangerous when you already have a weakness in your knees. Just another reason to workout consistently I guess.
****correctly performed with appropriate loads. That’s the key. The orthopaedic surgeon doesn’t see these people. But the number of people who don’t do them correctly for their body type is the issue. If you’re new to the gym and watching random RUclipsrs on how to squat, you get a whole mix of information. And you’ll likely get some injuries along the way.
Been deep squatting for over 15 years with proper form. I am now in my mid 40’s and still deep squat with no problems. I feel my knees have only gotten stronger.
A funny thing happens when you do something well with appropriately dosed intensity and frequency that match your own individual tolerance and ability to recover, you don’t get hurt!( what you’ve done and kudos to you for proving that you can do something like a deep squat into a mature age without getting injured)
@@ThePowerofYourImagination yep no doubt you also did things right in terms of prioritising quality food, sleep and managing external everyday life stressors as they impact how you perform in the gym aswell(something a lot of people still don’t understand)
Now in fairness he was asked what he'd never do "as an orthopedic surgeon" not what we should never do. So what we can take from this is orthopedic surgeons are ego lifters.
@manne8575 the post is misleading Trust me i lobe squatU but this one is not right He tries to argue that atg squats are better for everyone by showing how cartilages thickened while trying to disprove a dr saying injuries in these squats are not worth it. The dr clearly talks about cartilagenous injury while he just brushes off by saying how it can help thicken the cartilages. Hence my comment on the injury. Credit where credit is due though. He has trained olympians and know the ideal exercises. However, this very same reason is leading to his bias resulting in thinking that these exercises are better for every other joe. If I start doing these squats now i have a 60 percent chance of injury. Compared to a seasoned olympian whose form is monitered during every training session
@ahmed002nd Well, cartilage injury can obviously be both degenerative and non degenerative. Non degenerative can happen with anything though, it's not even related to sports. You can get cartilage injury from falling. So yes, the comments about degenerative cartilage injury are very much reasonable, as that's what most people are referring to when talking about sports injuries. As long as you have correct form with adequate weight, ATG squats aren't any more dangerous as parallel squats. In fact, I would even argue they're saver over the long term.
@@manne8575 i dont know of if u have the proper understanding of the terms here but degenerative changes are not injuries. Thatsthe wholeppint i ve been trying to make U just dong get to talk about cartilage injuries and then just show how it reverses cartilage degenration
The big difference here is “with good technique” and “not overloaded” The doc is right because most people arent going to care about their form more than how much they can just lift. It takes self control to say “yk, im not going to try for more today even though I want to. Better to come back and try increasing next week.” Heavy lifting is great exercise, but only if done right.
Im 57, 6-5. 7 years ago I was a stiff hot mess and blew a disk doing wind sprints. Couldn't do a deep squat worth nothing. Post lower lumbar microdisectomy to fix that injury, Im ass to grass now, great physique, pistol squats too. This channel, Strengthside. & knees over toes guy changed my life, the Doc in the beginning of this video is a turd of misery
Deep squats if you have pre existing patellar femoral issues from birth ID a problem. I've had crepedes in my right knee since I can remember and PFPS started showing up in my late teens. My right knee cap is a little wider than my left and I'm almost certain that this is effecting the tracking. I've only been trying to fix it in the last year with correcting exercises since it got real bad last year. But I haven't gotten back to deep squats yet without a flare up and cycling with my legs with any decent force is a bad idea (I ride an e bike)
Careful, a doctor's medical studies, and I don't mean a specialist, rather a generalist, mainly focus on what to prescribe when. The rest is very often superficially taught and most doctors don't verify.
Thank you for bringing evidence based information to the Internet. There were many misconceptions and misbeliefs even in the medical community for decades and yet once good clinical trials were done, many of those misconceptions were found out, and this is a prime example.
If one is not careful, exvessive loads can negatively affect anatomy So the answer isn't a blanket ban on an exercise, but actual correct form minimizing risk of injury
As an Ortho surgeon myself... The advice he gave was for the average person... Not the one who knows as much as you do about knee mechanics, etc. The average person should not, and take our advice. Believe me.
No. You’re indoctrinated. The average lifter knows far more about the human body than a modern “doctor” lmao. Web MD > wasting money on someone who knows nothing
I've been doing ATG squats for a couple of years now and my knees never felt better unlike I did them before as in 90degrees! Literally ZERO pain now unlike before!
I hate is so much when docs try to convince us that training natural movement patterns under controlled load is somehow dangerous when in mosts cases it actually strengthens joint structures and muscles
Feels like a video taken out of context but i still hear from regular people similar things. Now if you have hundreds of kgs on your back proper form and moderation is paramount but one thing im 100% certain for bodyweight squats is that I saw old people who are generally healthier than others can do these deep squats on daily basis and they always did in their life
Since I was a kid I've had knee pain and dudes like that out of shape know it all doc have been telling me never to be in the deep Squat position. I've been doing knees over toes for a month now and my knees have never felt better.
I myself being a doctor call bull on this doctor. I am from India. People in my country for thousands of years shit everyday being in a deep squat position before Britishers brought in western style. Even today when many people are preferring western over Indian toilets its the people who use Indian toilets have better health of knees and other joints
This dude reminds me of my primary care physician. She’s at least 150 pounds overweight and preaches to me that I need to eat less red meat because my cholesterol is too high.
I had knee issues until i started to stretch and exercise, yes i deep squat and even sit how i use to as a child in a deep ass to grass squat. My knee pain that i had for 12 plus years has stopped. Don't listen to doctors about your general health.
The reason that powerlifters don't get injured is also due to their routine, going straight into heavy squats will cause injury. They stretch, use knee sleeves to keep their knees warm and towels to keep generally warm, and increase their weight from the beginning of the training session veeerry gradually.
Most isolation exercises are bad (or not as effective compared to how many people do them), but leg extensions are really bad for the knees as they puts sheer forces on the knees.
That whole thing started with ego lifting. Like stretching if you can’t touch your toes at first you can keep practicing and stretching until You can. If you walk up and through 135 on the bar without ever practicing a squat whatsoever yeah you’ll blow out your knees. I use to not be able to ATG with 315 but after months of increasing load and depth equally I can for reps. Moral of the story don’t be dumb when lifting
They key is gradual deepening of squats. If you go from zero squats to deep, weighted squats.. ofc you're gonna break something. Often the case with many lifting injuries.. they key is gradual increase in difficulty not ego lifting the maximum weight you possibly can without any supportive muscle conditioning
I love orthopedic surgeons. They are very skilled and knowledgeable about surgery… but that is about it. They are the most guilty of a profession that does not recognize their selection bias when it comes to orthopedic conditions. This is another great example of that.
I was taught to do deep squats since i started lifting, that was almost 10 years ago, i have never had a problem with my knees and the same way the doctor is talking from experience the people who squat just to reach 90° are the people who i have talked to have the most knee problems
Deep squats improve knee health. Took me 3 years from being told I kneed a knee replacement to being able to do pistol squats. My knee is much better than it was!! When I started I couldn't even bend it past 45° without pain
I would say that it depends firstly on the individual and the actual training routine. Also the form is always a part of the equation It’s a fine line between overtraining and undertraining. This is also dependent upon the individual
Training deep squats with low weights and doing glute medius training cured my chronic patellar tendonitis. Im now back to running and doing more mileage than i used to
As a human with many year of experience. If your body feels pain you probably should go lighter or not do it all. If you feel fine your probably okay snd can keep doing it. It's literally as simple as that The same goes for dieting. If you can eat it without it being processed it's probably better for you. The same thing goes for any material that is toxic or dangerous if you have long term exposure. If you can't find it in nature it's probably not good for humans or animals.
Thank you. I reckon many doctors are used to sedentary people and his advice might be great for them, but millions of people in Asia squat to wait for buses and to eliminate waste every day and don't have more knee issues than westerners.
Human body is amazing, your body will adapt to anything you put it through, but when that moves to abusing it is another thing, learn and know your limits, 90° are perfect for all the weight you can handle, passing those 90 I'm being using it to get more strength
use it or lose it, just like rounding your spine with increased loads will build strength in that type of movement and the day you lift something with bad form it wont be a long lasting injury
Hey, marriage counselor, what’s the one thing you would never do for a healthy relationship? Get married. Why? Bc nothing says stress and divorce like marriage.
Notice how he is not sucking in his belly and restricting his pelvis when he squats ass to grass. That is where the issues start. When you allow the "tuck your pelvis" que to take over and ALL of the stress goes into the front of your body. Try some squats like you see him do in the video. Maintain Structure under load = Stronger + Supportive Joints
After having several knee surgeries and spending nearly two years unable to walk the best rehab I ever did to get myself back was deep squats and a variety of weight training. I was even able to compete in a strongman competition. All that to say my ortho surgeons balked every time we talked about me lifting heavy. Literally told me “I don’t want to hear that ever again” 🤣 they were shocked and I can honestly say that when I take a break or slack off on my training my knee hurts more than ever and leaves me unable to go about day to day life. Granted I’ve lived in a state of constant pain for the past 15 years but it’s 10x worse when I’m not lifting. I do also add in tons of flexibility training, backward walked both loaded and unloaded, sled pushed and pulls, and tons of stability training.
Had serious knee clicking and pain, also lower back pain and all kinds of symptoms from messed up hamstrings and hip flexors from basically decades of sitting office work. Deep squats as part of my mobility and strengthening routines have helped me with all those symptoms tremendously. Sometimes I think doctors don’t actually want us to get better through natural means (less revenue for the medical establishment).
I think the issue with deep squats that causes injury a lot of the time is people not taking the time at low/body weight to allow all the supporting structures to develop correctly and the knee to adapt. A lot of people (especially those focused solely on 'gains') jump up in loaded weights too quickly, and don't work on bodyweight full range of motion first.
I was told not to even go to 90, but just above it, by my physical therapist. After watching dc. Mike and knees over toes i started going super low and my knees havent felt better. The important thing is to not immediately do your normal aquat weight, but rather essentially start over from scratch so your not "stresssing" weak tendons
Most doctors havent a clue about diet or how the body works under stress aka lifting. My mother is type 2 diabetic from old age she is 77 now doctors told her she has to eat carbs with every single meal, this is not true at all, if she was type 1 then sure, you can reduce the issues from it or reverse it by having a low carb diet.
Deep squats arent bad, but your body needs time to adapt. Training consistently allows your body to adapt in ways to reinforce those positions, the big issue is untrained people starting out with bad habits and overstressing the joints before they have time to adapt
If you listened to "experts", you would lie in bed and never do anything. You have to use it or you will lose it. It's really that simple. It's also worth mentioning that if you don't bend your knees past 90 degrees, then you're going to end up putting more tension in your lower back and you will end up lifting incorrectly instead of putting the weight into your legs like you should be doing.
Deep squatting, with correct technique and appropriate progression of loads, is not dangerous. It won’t automatically lead to degeneration as some say.
.
@orthopedicspecialists with the opening stitched video & @muscleandmotion with the amazing anatomy graphics.
Humans have had to deep squat throughout history, otherwise you would be covered in 💩
@SquatUniversity hello doctor. Can you please list the books which you have read or recommend for understanding of biomechanics,movement and disorders which I can use to start to delve deeper in my understanding of these topics. Any help is much appreciated. And your videos helped me a great deal in the gym ❤❤
Any research on deep squats for people with TKR or PKR? @squatuniversity
First guy is right, I did them and had 3 surgeries and Im just 30 years old
@@rmp5640did you do them properly with a reasonable increase in weight overtime?
He's seeing all the cases where it went wrong, not taking into account the 99% of other people he doesn't see who do it right. He's talking from experience not giving reasoning or good argumentation. Our body is adaptable and if we progress in a slow and stimulating way we can do so many things that are beneficial to our health
If that was the case, we might call it casualty bias. The opposite of survivorship bias. 😅
Have had doctors tell me it's bad to lift weights...
@@YELLOW617. Yes, was about to say the opposite of survivor bias 👍
It's the opposite version of survivor bias.
This is an orthopedic surgeon saying deep squat can cause the patellar tendon to rupture vs squat university saying it wont cause long term damage. They are arguing two different things.
First, apples; now it's deep squats. Just what in the hell is their problem, man?
😂😂😂
Hahahaha on point
😂😂😂
Fr lol😂. I do deep squats with 380 kgs and nothing bad happens
@@uqhkaha, Im sure you do
I have been lifting since the early 90s. We were always told not to deep squat it was bad for us. A few years ago I fell on a rock while recreating and did some minor damage to my left knee. After that, every time I squated I would end up with tendinitis in my knee. For a year or so I stopped leg day all together. Then I read that if you deep squat it can help strengthen the tendins. So I started squating deep and deep knee stretcheing several times a day. I can now squat 315 10 times and I have no kneee problems. I can actually sit in a squat position without pain and I couldn't do thay before I fell.
Always good to hear rehab testimonies. I had a bad/weak knee but can now be completely relaxed in the deep squat position as well. It's way more comfortable that way.
My general rule is lift more, move more. IMO the vast majority of injuries are caused by under use not over use.
Goes back to the age old saying, “Move it or lose it.”
Well said
@@anthonyisbell8822 and in orthodontics we say, "use it or lose it."
You have cool opinions
Not always though. When you aren't moving correctly, it will always fuck you up.
Doc forgot half the world's population deep squat on a regular basis 💩
Great point 😂
Yeah, I practice eating expired burgers so it's already my routine
No shit?
With 100+lbs on your shoulders? Still deep squat though
Youre dumb@@TheMusicianTom
Reputable surgeons should not be giving out "general" advice to people. It's misleading. Sure this may be true for some but not for all. Stay in the surgery room, that's your expertise. Leave rehab to PTs...
Reputable PTs bring research evidence to a public forum discussion, not their prejudices.😂
First guy is right, I did them and had 3 surgeries and Im just 30 years old
@@rmp5640 Did You do them right tho? Thats the Main difference
@@wonder784 I do believe so cause I asked few trainers to check my form and lift smaller weights
@@rmp5640 I'm 32 and with proper form, it hurts my knees, same with my dad. I believe the surgeon isn't making things up on the fly lol 😅
Squat U. still undefeated and undisputed!!!! Doc never did a squat in his life🤦🏾♂️🤦🏾♂️
U know who else is undefeated and undisputed… CHAEL SONNEN. The American gangster
@@morgothbauglir8687 UNDEFEATED!!! UNDISPUTED!!!
@@morgothbauglir8687 opened the comments and this was the last thing I expected to read lmao
@@TheSp3cial0ne ..more and more mma fans spawning out of nowhere
Agreed, I do deep squats with 380 kgs, my absolute PR in normal squat is 620 kgs, nothing bad happens...
I love that last slip in “with the appropriate loads”. So many people overload their quads. You can tell because they start shaking like a leaf and the depth doesn’t matter. I say if your first and last rep are changing then the load is too heavy. Lighten it up and stick with what works for me. Eventually my body will tell me the load is too light and then I can add the weight.
This is the comment. Everyone* should read this and approach the gym like it.
*Except powerlifters, Olympic lifters or advanced lifters (people training for more than a decade); those likely know how much to get away with or have no choice but doing their maximum in specific scenarios.
Ego lifting be the real cause of injury.
If you're shaking it's likely that your stabilizing muscles are too weak to do their job. Lightening the load and focusing on form is one way to fix this.
Your last rep should definitely not be as easy as your first rep. The weight should be “easy” on the first few reps and gradually get harder the more reps you do. Your muscles won’t grow and you won’t build strength if not even the last rep is difficult
@@GiggityG this sounds like everyone before they discover the Larry wheels curse. Going hard is given. Going hard that breaks form is a best guess. Best guess if you did something to your bones, cartilage or muscles that it wasn’t able to do anatomically.
Deep squats all day. My knees have never been stronger
Yup, used to get knee pain after some hard cycling sessions. All have gone away since I’ve been deep squatting.
@silverjackaI I do a lot of cycling as well. I like mountain biking, tho. What about you?
Mountain biker here. Love deep squats!!!
@gtxc4214 Squats help with the downhill portion of the trail 😀
You are absolutely right but that is not the most emperically objective method to assess.
My knee pain went away because of deep squats lol. This guy needs to update his knowledge
Agreed. I do deep squats with 380 kgs (837.76 pounds) and I don't have ANY pain in my knees
I'm older and don't do that much weight, but full ROM squats have helped my mobility, recovery, and overall strength. My knees feel better.
The dr has never done a squat or an exercise in at least 15 years.
Orthopaedic surgeons are notoriously fit though 😂 they have to be strong for the surgeries they do, you can find videos of them hammering rods into bones with an insane level of force. Of all the specialties, orthopaedic surgeons are by far the most fit on average lol
@@Lau3464l there is more to being fit than simply being strong. If his heart fails at age 50, skeletal muscle strength won’t save him.
I came here to write that he sits wrong.
@@firemelon7296I came here to write that and that he sits wrong 😂
True😂😂😂😂😂
The Knees Over Toes guy wants a word with that doctor
Doc is right, I did them and had 3 surgeries and Im just 30 years old
@@rmp5640It’s cool to see you spamming this through the comment thread. Your low effort copy paste is probably making the opposite point you want for anyone who notices.
@@rmp5640did you do them properly while also progressively overloading with small and safe increments in weights? Dumbass spam bot 😅
@@Dontreallycare5 stop being blind
@@rmp5640skill issue lmao projecting your weakness, eh?
Probability and actuality are hard to swallow. Sport science is based on research, but the doctor has experience. You are safe if you do proper techniques, including progressive overload, but ego lifters need to be admired
Research is more sound than experience
What is the science in ‘sport science’ if not sufficient data, the experience you refer to?
Getting injured (from the military) taught me doctors almost never know what they are talking about
Brain injury it seems
@@Milanor no he's right mostly. Many doctors know their stuff and many simply don't
@@Milanoryou would be surprised how often doctors are wrong. Most doctors are medical nerds and obsess with the latest research paper they read or whatever the last pharmaceutical salesman told them. Very few doctors have good critical thinking. If you have a typical case, almost any doctor would be good for you, but if you have an unusual situation, good luck getting the proper treatment.
@@Milanorto be fair, doctors know too much for their own good. They learn micro information through paragraphs in textbooks and their experience from doctors that stopped taking in new info.
For example, the birthing world proved many things in the 50s yet doctors are passing outdated misinformation through disgruntled doctors
Also the VA doesn't have the cream of the crop as far as doctors are concerned. The "Your injury is not service related" meme is real.
So the key words here is “correctly done squats.” Half the time people are either going too fast or too quick with training. Slow and steady keeps the doctor away.
Firstly, the first reference is too old and too small to make such interpretations. Specially in comparison to the magnitude of papers correlating deeper squats to increased patellar stress and degeneration. Secondly, in the 2007 paper, the sample size is very small; the mesurement of knee moment is imprecise due to the lack of an appropriate inverse dynamics analysis (the dynamometer itself is not enough); the paper actually concluded the opposite of your statement, regarding cartilage adaptation to training (no or minimal correlation was found between loading and thickness - not saying that appropriate loading is not important for cartilage health); the evidence in the study point towards more muscle correlated to thicker cartilage, but it is impossible to conclude causality in an cross sectional study. Athletes with better quality and thicker cartilage could be less suceptible to injury, thus improving their mantanance in weightlifting activities. Pain and injury can be a form of fundamental selection of individuals capable of sustaining stress activities without pain, possibly due to better cartilage. And finally, the last paper (2013) is a literature review of papers usually 30-50 years old. The argument of an "unfounded statement" is refering to quad tendon stress increase, and not the patellofemoral. In order to reach adequate inferences about joint stress, appropriate kinetic analysis is necessary. There were few and very old papers, usually with small sample sizes and variable muscle cross sectional areas, regarding actual kinetic data of deep squats indicating an protective value. Biomechanical databases where non existant at the time, and anthropometric values were at high risk of bias. Again, the is a lack of longitudinal studies able to confirm an protective value. On the other hand, modern databases can confirm that deeper squats can increase patelofemoral stress. Aditionally, more kinetic studies, using modern and established databases, regarding the "wraping effect" are still necessary to confirm its possible influence in the extensor mechanism articular contact area.
Thanks
Appreciate your critic.
Great response, people should read this instead off the short's poor advice
Please clarify your stance.
Are you saying there are not enough good studies to justify either side of the argument?
I tend to be a common sense person and common sense tells me the body will adapt appropriately to reasonable demands on it.
@@Jahsurfer some tissues will adapt to training, but cartilage will not. Its a dna lottery when it comes to cartilage. And while you can train and adapt your joints to maintain their correct dynamic function under load, reducing the risk of injury due to poor biomechanical function, your cartilage in itself can only endure or cope with the stress applied to it. It wears out throughout life time and cannot be replenished.
For a fix load, the compression force in the patela increases with the angle of joint flexion, by several orders of magnitude (its exponencial). Simple geometry proves this! Thus the risk of premature wear or accute injury also increases. That is what the doctor is talking about.
So when the video implies that it is in fact healthier even at high loads it could not be further from the truth. That is not saying that full mobility at reduced loads may not be beneficial to most individuals, granted they do not have any specific limitation issue.
Good info as always. Perhaps deep squats are more dangerous when you already have a weakness in your knees. Just another reason to workout consistently I guess.
All the more reasons to squat. Squatting deep consistently strengthens the knees like nothing else would.
****correctly performed with appropriate loads. That’s the key. The orthopaedic surgeon doesn’t see these people. But the number of people who don’t do them correctly for their body type is the issue. If you’re new to the gym and watching random RUclipsrs on how to squat, you get a whole mix of information. And you’ll likely get some injuries along the way.
Been deep squatting for over 15 years with proper form. I am now in my mid 40’s and still deep squat with no problems. I feel my knees have only gotten stronger.
A funny thing happens when you do something well with appropriately dosed intensity and frequency that match your own individual tolerance and ability to recover, you don’t get hurt!( what you’ve done and kudos to you for proving that you can do something like a deep squat into a mature age without getting injured)
@ and thankful that all the 15 years there are no injuries
@@ThePowerofYourImagination yep no doubt you also did things right in terms of prioritising quality food, sleep and managing external everyday life stressors as they impact how you perform in the gym aswell(something a lot of people still don’t understand)
@ true dat! 👏🏽💯
Same. Deep squat is the only way to.big quads
Common people just overload squat, egolift, don't warm up.... so it's better, as a doctor, put some fear on the thing.
Now in fairness he was asked what he'd never do "as an orthopedic surgeon" not what we should never do.
So what we can take from this is orthopedic surgeons are ego lifters.
Patellar cartilage injury is not degenreative
It can happen at any moment even if your patellar cartilages are as thick as a belt
@@ahmed002nd So?
@manne8575 the post is misleading
Trust me i lobe squatU but this one is not right
He tries to argue that atg squats are better for everyone by showing how cartilages thickened while trying to disprove a dr saying injuries in these squats are not worth it.
The dr clearly talks about cartilagenous injury while he just brushes off by saying how it can help thicken the cartilages. Hence my comment on the injury.
Credit where credit is due though. He has trained olympians and know the ideal exercises.
However, this very same reason is leading to his bias resulting in thinking that these exercises are better for every other joe.
If I start doing these squats now i have a 60 percent chance of injury. Compared to a seasoned olympian whose form is monitered during every training session
@ahmed002nd Well, cartilage injury can obviously be both degenerative and non degenerative. Non degenerative can happen with anything though, it's not even related to sports. You can get cartilage injury from falling. So yes, the comments about degenerative cartilage injury are very much reasonable, as that's what most people are referring to when talking about sports injuries. As long as you have correct form with adequate weight, ATG squats aren't any more dangerous as parallel squats. In fact, I would even argue they're saver over the long term.
@@manne8575 i dont know of if u have the proper understanding of the terms here but degenerative changes are not injuries.
Thatsthe wholeppint i ve been trying to make
U just dong get to talk about cartilage injuries and then just show how it reverses cartilage degenration
The big difference here is “with good technique” and “not overloaded”
The doc is right because most people arent going to care about their form more than how much they can just lift. It takes self control to say “yk, im not going to try for more today even though I want to. Better to come back and try increasing next week.” Heavy lifting is great exercise, but only if done right.
Where the fuck do you get all this nice animations
Nulls brawl
Im 57, 6-5. 7 years ago I was a stiff hot mess and blew a disk doing wind sprints. Couldn't do a deep squat worth nothing. Post lower lumbar microdisectomy to fix that injury,
Im ass to grass now, great physique, pistol squats too. This channel, Strengthside. & knees over toes guy changed my life, the Doc in the beginning of this video is a turd of misery
Let's ask the Dr who's never done a squat in his life 🤦
Deep squats if you have pre existing patellar femoral issues from birth ID a problem. I've had crepedes in my right knee since I can remember and PFPS started showing up in my late teens. My right knee cap is a little wider than my left and I'm almost certain that this is effecting the tracking. I've only been trying to fix it in the last year with correcting exercises since it got real bad last year. But I haven't gotten back to deep squats yet without a flare up and cycling with my legs with any decent force is a bad idea (I ride an e bike)
Strong legs = long life!
As a person with patella femural disease this was really helpful thanks
Deep front squats have made my knees feel bullet proof. Running, jumping, manual labor, it’s all easy for my knees to
This doc simply is wrong. Terrible general health advice
Olympians? Plane-with-red-dots.jpg...
Careful, a doctor's medical studies, and I don't mean a specialist, rather a generalist, mainly focus on what to prescribe when.
The rest is very often superficially taught and most doctors don't verify.
75 to 90 degrees
Thank you for bringing evidence based information to the Internet. There were many misconceptions and misbeliefs even in the medical community for decades and yet once good clinical trials were done, many of those misconceptions were found out, and this is a prime example.
Then Tom Plazt should be in Wheelchair...not Ronnie coleman
If one is not careful, exvessive loads can negatively affect anatomy
So the answer isn't a blanket ban on an exercise, but actual correct form minimizing risk of injury
As an Ortho surgeon myself... The advice he gave was for the average person... Not the one who knows as much as you do about knee mechanics, etc. The average person should not, and take our advice. Believe me.
No. You’re indoctrinated. The average lifter knows far more about the human body than a modern “doctor” lmao. Web MD > wasting money on someone who knows nothing
I've been doing ATG squats for a couple of years now and my knees never felt better unlike I did them before as in 90degrees! Literally ZERO pain now unlike before!
I hate is so much when docs try to convince us that training natural movement patterns under controlled load is somehow dangerous when in mosts cases it actually strengthens joint structures and muscles
Feels like a video taken out of context but i still hear from regular people similar things. Now if you have hundreds of kgs on your back proper form and moderation is paramount but one thing im 100% certain for bodyweight squats is that I saw old people who are generally healthier than others can do these deep squats on daily basis and they always did in their life
sock it to 'em Doc H. 💪
Since I was a kid I've had knee pain and dudes like that out of shape know it all doc have been telling me never to be in the deep Squat position. I've been doing knees over toes for a month now and my knees have never felt better.
I myself being a doctor call bull on this doctor. I am from India. People in my country for thousands of years shit everyday being in a deep squat position before Britishers brought in western style. Even today when many people are preferring western over Indian toilets its the people who use Indian toilets have better health of knees and other joints
This dude reminds me of my primary care physician. She’s at least 150 pounds overweight and preaches to me that I need to eat less red meat because my cholesterol is too high.
“Let me tell you why this ‘doctor’ is wrong”
Proof that doctors aren't always the most informed or the best to listen to
The load isn’t transferred into the kneecap, the muscles see to that.
Yeah, all of Asia would like to have a word with Dr. Brotherton.
Injury prevention depends on mastering proper techniques. Improper techniques lead to injuries
I had knee issues until i started to stretch and exercise, yes i deep squat and even sit how i use to as a child in a deep ass to grass squat. My knee pain that i had for 12 plus years has stopped. Don't listen to doctors about your general health.
all i know is that since i started seriously lifting weights my knee pains and swellings that have bothering since years miraculously disappeared
The reason that powerlifters don't get injured is also due to their routine, going straight into heavy squats will cause injury. They stretch, use knee sleeves to keep their knees warm and towels to keep generally warm, and increase their weight from the beginning of the training session veeerry gradually.
Most isolation exercises are bad (or not as effective compared to how many people do them), but leg extensions are really bad for the knees as they puts sheer forces on the knees.
Leg extensions, done carefully, can really strengthen your knees.
That whole thing started with ego lifting. Like stretching if you can’t touch your toes at first you can keep practicing and stretching until
You can.
If you walk up and through 135 on the bar without ever practicing a squat whatsoever yeah you’ll blow out your knees.
I use to not be able to ATG with 315 but after months of increasing load and depth equally I can for reps.
Moral of the story don’t be dumb when lifting
Lengthening is strengthening. Being able to produce force in compromising positions is a sign of good health
I've been SQUATTING every day for 24 day's. I had to change my stance to Olympic. ATG. My knee pain is gone.
Trust doctors with surgery or healing an injury. NOT with health and lifestyle advice
Orthopedic physicians or real all physicians should be required to do internships in physical therapy and strength&conditioning
They key is gradual deepening of squats. If you go from zero squats to deep, weighted squats.. ofc you're gonna break something. Often the case with many lifting injuries.. they key is gradual increase in difficulty not ego lifting the maximum weight you possibly can without any supportive muscle conditioning
Deep squats past 90 degrees are totally fine, provided you are loading correct weight and executing good form
I love orthopedic surgeons. They are very skilled and knowledgeable about surgery… but that is about it. They are the most guilty of a profession that does not recognize their selection bias when it comes to orthopedic conditions. This is another great example of that.
ALWAYS TRUST THE GUY WORKING IN THE FIELD! How many arbitrary research articles have been debunked.
I was taught to do deep squats since i started lifting, that was almost 10 years ago, i have never had a problem with my knees and the same way the doctor is talking from experience the people who squat just to reach 90° are the people who i have talked to have the most knee problems
Deep squats improve knee health. Took me 3 years from being told I kneed a knee replacement to being able to do pistol squats. My knee is much better than it was!! When I started I couldn't even bend it past 45° without pain
Osteo in the beginning is like a dentist that hands out candy.
I would say that it depends firstly on the individual and the actual training routine. Also the form is always a part of the equation
It’s a fine line between overtraining and undertraining. This is also dependent upon the individual
Training deep squats with low weights and doing glute medius training cured my chronic patellar tendonitis. Im now back to running and doing more mileage than i used to
As a human with many year of experience.
If your body feels pain you probably should go lighter or not do it all.
If you feel fine your probably okay snd can keep doing it.
It's literally as simple as that
The same goes for dieting. If you can eat it without it being processed it's probably better for you.
The same thing goes for any material that is toxic or dangerous if you have long term exposure.
If you can't find it in nature it's probably not good for humans or animals.
Thank you. I reckon many doctors are used to sedentary people and his advice might be great for them, but millions of people in Asia squat to wait for buses and to eliminate waste every day and don't have more knee issues than westerners.
Human body is amazing, your body will adapt to anything you put it through, but when that moves to abusing it is another thing, learn and know your limits, 90° are perfect for all the weight you can handle, passing those 90 I'm being using it to get more strength
Really really appreciate the scientific evidence and research you cite in these shorts
use it or lose it, just like rounding your spine with increased loads will build strength in that type of movement and the day you lift something with bad form it wont be a long lasting injury
I'm sure most of his patients never even touched a barbell XD
If a dr gave everyone a blanket statement like that, he doesn’t need to work anymore.
Hey, marriage counselor, what’s the one thing you would never do for a healthy relationship?
Get married.
Why?
Bc nothing says stress and divorce like marriage.
Notice how he is not sucking in his belly and restricting his pelvis when he squats ass to grass.
That is where the issues start.
When you allow the "tuck your pelvis" que to take over and ALL of the stress goes into the front of your body.
Try some squats like you see him do in the video.
Maintain Structure under load = Stronger + Supportive Joints
He deals with survivorship bias…
After having several knee surgeries and spending nearly two years unable to walk the best rehab I ever did to get myself back was deep squats and a variety of weight training. I was even able to compete in a strongman competition. All that to say my ortho surgeons balked every time we talked about me lifting heavy. Literally told me “I don’t want to hear that ever again” 🤣 they were shocked and I can honestly say that when I take a break or slack off on my training my knee hurts more than ever and leaves me unable to go about day to day life. Granted I’ve lived in a state of constant pain for the past 15 years but it’s 10x worse when I’m not lifting. I do also add in tons of flexibility training, backward walked both loaded and unloaded, sled pushed and pulls, and tons of stability training.
when you have no issues, most challenges are great. As soon you get injured (who doesn't ever?) you need to learn to manage the pieces are left.
Thank you so much for this video! More people need to hear this 🙏
Had serious knee clicking and pain, also lower back pain and all kinds of symptoms from messed up hamstrings and hip flexors from basically decades of sitting office work. Deep squats as part of my mobility and strengthening routines have helped me with all those symptoms tremendously. Sometimes I think doctors don’t actually want us to get better through natural means (less revenue for the medical establishment).
Squats and weight training made my knees stronger and took away the pain!!!
They’re worried about squats? Try running for decades. It’s gotta be so much worse.
Deep squats and other full range movment exercises helped me. I had painfull knees for years. Now it's so much better
I think the issue with deep squats that causes injury a lot of the time is people not taking the time at low/body weight to allow all the supporting structures to develop correctly and the knee to adapt. A lot of people (especially those focused solely on 'gains') jump up in loaded weights too quickly, and don't work on bodyweight full range of motion first.
One thing I would never do is listen to a doctor that obviously doesn't exercise
Never listen to someone that isn’t where you want to be
I used to do deep knee bends and power lifting leg presses (up to 710lbs) my knees paid for that. Softened the cartilage on my kneecaps.
MDs continue to be the all time best of speaking with authority about things they no nothing about.
I think a lot of people forget that our bodies are very smart and can adapt to most environmental stresses
I was told not to even go to 90, but just above it, by my physical therapist. After watching dc. Mike and knees over toes i started going super low and my knees havent felt better. The important thing is to not immediately do your normal aquat weight, but rather essentially start over from scratch so your not "stresssing" weak tendons
My kness actually stopped getting sore when I began to squat past 90°
Most doctors havent a clue about diet or how the body works under stress aka lifting. My mother is type 2 diabetic from old age she is 77 now doctors told her she has to eat carbs with every single meal, this is not true at all, if she was type 1 then sure, you can reduce the issues from it or reverse it by having a low carb diet.
Just like how lifting heavy (close to 1rm) increases bone mineral density. The body won't adapt without a stimulus
I like how he didn't cuss the doctor out just explained why he is wrong
I’ve always proud of myself on being knowledgeable about the body and you always find a way to teach me something
Just sitting on the couch is waaaaay worse for your knees than doing deep squats
Deep squats arent bad, but your body needs time to adapt. Training consistently allows your body to adapt in ways to reinforce those positions, the big issue is untrained people starting out with bad habits and overstressing the joints before they have time to adapt
I do deep squats,before making a good wramup and stretching daily...the movement is not the problem is the technique to do it.
If you listened to "experts", you would lie in bed and never do anything. You have to use it or you will lose it. It's really that simple. It's also worth mentioning that if you don't bend your knees past 90 degrees, then you're going to end up putting more tension in your lower back and you will end up lifting incorrectly instead of putting the weight into your legs like you should be doing.