i was always thinking it is situational at least for the cavalry since they are the troop type i use.When you are swarming something and the raport between dmg dealt/dmg taken is in your favor i think conquistadors work the best.And when you have very high skill dmg commanders such as minamoto or pelagius you may want to stay in the fight as long as you can and count on your general's skills to deal a lot of dmg in that situation i would pick bizantynium cavalry and so on.Personally i think they should add a special ability to every special unit so theu create a unique playstyle of each of them,thanks if you did read till here guys and good luck on your things
consquistadors are beasts. he is biased because of his discoveries of the health stat. wich is fine. i myself have played with teutonic and conquistadors and you can feel conquistador damage difference quiete easy. having said that i use german because they give 5%atk plus the teutonic knight is tanky and the sweet ap regen
First of all, I like to thank you for the effort you putting on making these really informative videos about game deep mechanics lately, we are really missing videos like that to actually help bring to light how the game works =) I do agree with the idea of the stat that you have the least when we are talking about the % bonus increases. HOWEVER: I would argue that for base stats is actually the opposite. Since look, the % is on top of your base stat so if you increase the base stat by 5% you actually increase the TOTAL of that stat by 5% witch is way better than the extra 5% to the % bonus you already have. Taking the normal unit as an example with 200% attack, 220 base attack going to 660 with the bonus, you put a city skin with 5% extra bonus attack it goes to 671 an increase of 11 that is about 1.6% of total stat increase. Now if you look in the increase that having lets say the conquistador instead of the skin: you have a 12 point increase roughly 5.45% increase on the base stat comparing to the base unit with the same 200% attack you have 696 instead of 660 its a 36 point increase. To achieve this 5.45% total increase you would need a 16.36% increase on the bonus % going from 200% to 216,36%. And this discrepancy gets more bigger and bigger as the bonus % increases, so if you had 300% instead of 200% : Base Unit: 220 + 300% => 880 Increasing the bonus to 305% => 891 same 11 stat increase but now only a 1.2% overall increase. Going from base unit to conquistador => 232 + 300% => 928 a 48 stat increase and the same 5,45% increase. But now to match that same increase you need 21,8% extra to the bonus stats going from 300% to 321%. So if we look like that, yes increasing the % bonus of the stat you have the least will have a represent a higher overall impact on the stat than on a stat you have a higher percentage. HOWEVER as I demonstrated having a special unity with the highest stat on the stat you have the highest % bonus means the highest TOTAL increase in stats. This is specially big on modes like ark where you have the 200% increase of attack on top of your normal bonus, and when we think on that well that 12 increase on attack might actually compare to almost a 30% % bonus increase which is really huge. (like my AT has 208.5% bonus attack without token so would be a 408.5% total bonus and on that scenario is comparable to 27.73% stat increase). Wouldn't say to pick Spain solely because of that but I would certainly rank the Mameluke over the Teutonic knight for example, increasing even more the fact that arabia is pure awesomeness. wow, wasn't expecting to make such a long comment lol, again great work on those stat and game mechanic vid's we really need them! If you disagree with me I would love to keep the discussion going, in the end game all is left for us is micro optimization's so is the only thing I actually think of right now =)
Attack is stronger against health as it does more dmg, defense stronger against attack as it can tank health stronger than defense as defense does little attack and health has loads of hp (imo)
Ottoman seemed perfect to my playing style when i first picked the civilization 5 months ago. Hp for archers is exactly what i need especially when you LOVE skill damage! extra march speed was a lovely cherry on the top. Ottomans was absolutely perfect for my playing style!
Yes, u right bc i only see whale can play Ottoman =)) even u spend high u can play Britain better, only way u spend really much u can play long game with ottoman
You definitely need to name this series of videos :D like ''RoK science'' or something and have additional playlist to make it easy to find this kind of videos. Because this is pure gold!
Thanks for the video, it was really great to see Chisgule spending time trying to bring values to all the players! Great job and keep this up! BUT I still want to point out as a number of people already did below, the boosting statistic ranking I agree should be health > defence > attack for 1V1. For the base statistic, Spain actually ranks the top following by Arabia and then Germany and Byzantium: 1) Without applying anything else (like the holy site, building, alliance technology etc), the max sta boost you get from your own technology only is Att/Def at 70%, Health at 40%. 2) By doing a simple calculation on each special unit you will find the total sum of the three sta after applying the technology boost to be 1057.2 (Spain), 1057.1(Arabia), 1053.7 (Germany) 1040.2 (Byzantium). The next interesting question (and you are welcome Chis for giving you another video content idea :P) would be testing out the different commanders (which are one of the most influential factors affecting boost) with these different troops types. I am sure there are for some commanders, one of these types are going to provide a better result (e.g., Cao Cao with Conquistadors are going to be better than Cao Cao with Cataphract in 1v1 situation). One disclaimer here is that this question is only framed for the special unit angle, I think Germany, as a civilization, is way better than Spain and the 4 sta difference I am sure is not a big deal!
I think there is a serious flaw in this methodology. You claim that attack is the worst stat and health is the best because of the way stats stack multiplicatively with one another, which is true, but thats only because % boosts of the same type are additive. If I have a 20% attack boost and a 10% attack boost, that comes out to being a 30% attack boost because it is additive. If it was multiplicative it would be 20% x 10% which is 32%. If the special unit buff was an additive % boost you would be correct in stating that attack is the worst stat and health is the best because of the math you did in your previous video. *However* the special unit bonus directly modifies the *base stats* of the unit. Which means it is *MULTIPLICATIVE* and not additive. What this means is that your logic is actually backwards. You want your highest stat to line up with the stat that you have the highest % boost to so you can get the most bonus stats. To demonstrate, say you add 10 bonus points to attack versus 10 bonus points to health, and you have 200% bonus attack and 100% bonus health respectively. The base stats are added *before* the multiplication happens, and not after. This means that 10 bonus points to attack become 30 points of attack since you have a 200% boost, and 10 bonus points to health become only 20 points of health. That being said I could be wrong if the bonus points are applied *after* the multiplication is done, but that would make no sense since they are supposed to be added to the *base* stats, which implies before multiplication is done and not after.
@@Writeous0ne It's all the same. Health, attack, defense is utilized together. I fail to see how any one of those 3 is magically better than the other 2. It just makes no sense. I fail to see how a unit with 10 attack 10 defense 20 health is better than one with 20 attack 10 defense 10 health. Given a scenario where both attack at the same time, they both kill each other instantly, thus no one stat is better than another. It's about the sum of all 3 vs the opponents sum of all 3.
after watching yesterday's video, i was thinking, how about civilizations? everyone says rome is good, but france health is :O for example, and here you are reading my mind haha
[7:55] It is not ~6% (more like 18%). If you have the +10 base attack and +%200 attack you end up with +30 attack in total So, in principle, the stats you have more modifier is better
i switched from Arabia to Spain since Chsiguel recommended it. I think i'am glad i picked spain seeing the table shown in this video. you're videos has been so helpful chisgule and I have been doing them, great help! thank you very much and I hope success for your channels :)
Deciding what to stack for base stats by what was best for % stats isn't an accurate comparison in this case especially for AoO. An example would be for AoO since you have the 200% attack buff 12 points on base stats is actually 36 points of attack before your other tech is added. This may mean that even though % attack increase is the worst stat in cases like AoO it may become the best base stat increase due to the sheer amount of bonus you get from increasing it for AoO. This example also works with health, since health has the lowest % increase adding 12 points of base stat to health will actually add 24 points of health assuming 100% bonus health with normal tech. But adding 12 points to defense or attack which normally have +200% modifiers or more will net you 36 points of stats or more. Health may still be the best even taking this into consideration but hard to know without the formula for how stats interact/a spreadsheet to calculate stat weights with your current values. I enjoy the videos going into mechanics like this though so keep them coming.
I’m using Conquistadors atm and I love them. I’m getting positive trades, melting forts and generally positive reports. However I haven’t KvK tested them for hospital bills lol 😂 🤷🏻♂️
@jeff pentagon your point is rather interesting, and hugely delayed reply I know 😆 I’m wanting to change my cav civ again, I’m currently Germany, it was cones as mentioned. I’m now eyeing up the Arabian cavalry as it has the same health but higher attack over defence. I’m using marches like genghis and William which are massive glass canons and I melt anyway so why not boost my damage even more. I run a Saladin Takeda as my bulk march. I just can’t find a single place that gives in detail stat breakdowns for each civ, and are the civ bonuses already taken into account in the stats or do we add them after ??
Isn't there some extra benefit because these are extra base stats and not extra bonus stats? For example, if you have, say, a unit with base 200 attack and a special unit with 210 attack, and you have a total of 100% bonus for attack. Then the special unit will actually have 20 effective extra stats (because it'll be 210 + 210 instead of 200 + 200). So it's not quite fair to compare them to bonus stats, because the extra base stats will be multiplied by some base value--i.e., instead of a 6% difference we may be looking at a 12% difference. I also observe that your bonus multiplier on health is much lower than the one for attack or defense. Looking at the teutonic knight stats at 7:47, your health bonus is a bit over half, while the attack and defense bonuses are each over 100%. So your extra base health is doing less work than your extra base attack/defense: 10 extra base health on that unit would add up to about 15-16 total health (base + bonus) but 10 extra attack or defense will add up to 20-21 total stats (base + bonus).
Chisgule thanks for video, I love how you put so much emphasis in theorycrafting . I have a theory which I would be happy to have commented by you. I think that for % stat you would want to max the least one and for flat stat - the one which you have more % bonuses. % increase diminishes. If you have 100 flat health and 100 flat attack and your attack is +100% and health is +0%. If your gross gain is +10% I would want it to be health as for net gain your health bumps 10% up from 100 to 110. But for attack which is already 200 (100 flat +100%) 10% gross will give you 5% net (210 from 200). However for flat stat, if you choose between 10 health and 10 attack, you mind multiplicators. So in the same example your attack will get from 200 to 220 and health from 100 to 110, both is 10% net gain. However the net flat outcome is 20 attack versus 10 health. Let’s now think of more complicated scenario. You have 100% attack and 100 attack and 0% health with 50(now) health. 10 flat health gives you 20% net income and 10 pts net health. 10 fist attack gives you only 10% net attack BUT 20 pts net attack gain So I would say that there are many factors measuring stat weight at particular time and I think that technically it is possible to get it into any formula with so much tests. What’s your thoughts on this?
It's elementary school math, and you are 100% correct, you want the highest base stats possible, so conquistadors are the best cavalry for AOO for instance. Tl dr - for base stats: Attack boost ~ defence boost >>> health boost
Anyone else find it slightly annoying that the starting commander does not match the special unit. Like britain having a peacekeeping commander in boudica rather than an archer commander.
Hmm. You say you want more points in the stats that you have the lowest boost on, and I agree on principle when comparing boosts. However, wouldn't you want to have as high a base as possible on the same stat where you have the highest boost? For example, Conquistador vs Teutonic Knight: 12 points difference in Attack would translate into about 24 extra points from the AoO boost alone, for a total difference of 36 in the favor of Conquistadors.
The problem with increasing your health stats is that you will also increase the amount of rss needed to heal them. At the end of the day attack is the best because it helps with pvp but also with pve. Whereas defense helps with pvp but not much versus pve.
with 5% health for cavalry from Byzantium civ, makes Cataphracts the unit with most health. Purely based on stats that should be the number one pick for cavalry
I'm afraid that's not how it works when you add in technology. The base stats of a unit matter more than just 5% health bonus. For example, the teutonic knight is def + health while the cataphract is just defens e. Adding in scaling, Teutonic knights are tankier due to the health+def on their base stats.
Another solid video thanks. Here's what I believe should be the order of civilizations imho. When you start a new account, pick China, when you reach around 5-8 million power, switch to Spain, why? Most people underestimate the extra 20% rss production, but if you max upgrade all your resources in the city, with the 20% extra rss you'll get massive amounts of rss passively without even farming a lot. Late game I would pick either Ottoman for the march speed and active skill or Arabia for the rally boost, especially if you're a rally captain. That's just t how I view it and how I'm doing it myself.
I personally think that you can prioritize any special unit you want to. I personally like attack the most but that is probably because I like to be a berserker type (I know that's not good, I'm working on it). I guess if you take for example the elite longbowman you should also specialise your gear around attack since the unit has the highest base attack so you gain the most out of powering that up. But that does of course not mean you should neglect the other stats. Tricky to get a good balance in there
Hi Chisgule. Is health the most important stat for all troop types? Or is it less important for units like archers, were you usually look for more damage dealing. Please your opinion.
Hi Chisgule, i felt that you've made a BIG mistake in the math. From what i can understand, there should always be a [Base * Modifier = Result ] stat in rok games. so if the modifier is like 200% atk in osiris, shouldnt having a larger base stat allow the 200% to be multiplied more? thus meaning that, the Elite crossbowman unit(unit with most atk) benefit most from the modifier instead? i felt that you are confusing between base state and modifier states and their impacts. I am multiplying by 3 because i am understanding that the 200% bonus + 100% original, without taking into account of other tech bonuses. 232 * 3 = 696 220 * 3 = 660 696/660 = 1.05++% 36 more in stat per unit so my understanding is that, we would always want more health modifiers, but we would actuall want atk increase in the base stats. let me know if i am wrong.
Yes but Ark of osiris is the only place where you have the attack gain, so you can't make generalized judgements based on that. For most game activities, the math is fine, and not considering Ark which is a very specific game mode is not a BIG mistake. He even covers this in his video outlining why Health is the best stat to have boosted overall.
@John Hobza Stay with Britain. That training speed is incredibly helpful. If you do dedide to switch civilizations, use alliance currency instead of gems
Im impress..coz im a cav user and im focusing on the ark and also im on germany civilization...THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO...AND PLSSS MAKE MORE VIDS ON ROK...THANKS
using the peacekeeper as a test doesn't show the importance of defense to help with the attacks(skill damage that was lacked in the test). but thank you for your time and helping
Hey Chisgule, actually it works a little different in the min maxing point of view. I still cant tell which stat is the most important in which situation and how the battle formula works, but base stats work like this. You base stats of the Unit elevates the worth of the % Bonus So lets say you have a 200% Boost to Cav Attack! and compare Conquistador 232 Attack and normal Unit 220 Attack. After your Bonus applied on the field you have 696 Attack and 660 Attack. The Civilization which gives you ádditional 12 attack, results in 36 Attack per Unit because the Bonus% is applied to the base Value. So it would actually make sense to ether Boost the highest Base Stat you have or to Choose the Civ with the highest base vlaue of the Boost you have the most with your Main Unit. Using Attila /Takeda with 250% Attack Boost this difference is even increased to 42 Attack per Unit. I hope thats correct and helpful. Cheers and Greetings from 1509
Are you considering the difference between stats and stat percentages? In this video you continue to say that health is the most useful to increase but as you get lower stat percentages in health the increase is worth less so surely it is less useful.
you must take into account that the infantry will tank and the cavalry will arrive with the damage, so in theory the best cavalry is the one with the most damage.
What makes me confused is that why all the special units gain the same extra bonus points in t4 (10 in total more than normal unit) but different in t5 (11-13 in total more than normal unit)
Hey Chisgule, do u know did the RoK take back that players healing limit? F2P players will get destroyed or stop playing if need to use such rss for T4-5 units. I'm not using real money that much and it would start costing some 20-30€:s more /month just buy heal speedups
You are making a mistake saying attack is the stat you care the least about. If you have the most %-wise boost to attack, then you want your base attack to be higher as your percentage boost is more effective then. Be careful when comparing base stats to boosts of base stats, they do not work the same way. You could still be right, but it needs extensive testing to conclude that. Sorry for ruining your entire research 😅
Example: if you have 12 extra attack as base stat, then your 200% attack buff in ark will grant you an extra 24 attack compared to using the non-special unit
Personally i switch between britain china and the vikings. I like how destructive the berserkers are but my main commander is the legendary commander from expedition (an archer) so i like britain too
Ima be honest. Your videos are consistently really good. Like...20 minutes...damn dude you going at it all the time 👍. You really do need better appreciation
I am currently Rome but I’m torn if I should swap over to France for kvk.. I can field 3 infantry marches. I’ve enjoyed Rome as a civilization, but the 20% healing speed in France looks really solid. How much does 20% healing speed matter ? Cheers
After watching this video I thought the same too, I‘m relatively new to the game (season 1 of lost kingdom) I‘m currently with Using China. I thought if I field 3-4 Infantry plus the 3% health boost and 20% healing speed it would be great. What do you think? Did you finally Switch to France? Or did you find something better?
Good video but the math is flawed here. You need to distinguish between base stats and boosted stats as a percentage. Boosted stats do not get amplified further so it is good to add to the lowest boost. For example: increase health from 105% to 110% is much more helpful than increase defense from 205% to 210%. Even though they go up by the same amount numbers wise, adding to the lower number makes a bigger impact. Base stats, on the other hand, DOES get amplified by stat boosters, so you WANT the stats with the biggest amplifier attached to it. For example, 12 points of health with a 100% boost (France) turns to 24 extra points of health, and 12 points of defense with a 200% boost (Rome) turns to 36 points of defense, which is better than 24 points of health. On this note, Japan is absolutely the best inf for ark because they get an extra 200% boost which is 24 points of attack in ark. In conclusion, because there are more defense buffs than health for inf, I’d say Rome definitely has the better special troop. Even Japan has an argument here despite not having good civ boosts.
Hi chisgule, saw your recent upload and your using a elite mamluk and and in this video your suggesting teutonic knight.. i just want to know if your reason for using mamluk now.. if is ok
Hey chis can you recommend to lilith to add in a trading system for items say if you don’t need a certain type of commander sculpture but another person needs it you can give it to that person
I like the analysis. But here is my thought: The base stats difference do matter like you said. Lets say a normal unit has a base stat of 100 atk 100 def 100 health. Due to technology and other boosts, your final stat could be sth like 200 200 160 (100% 100% 60% bonus). Now lets decrease the atk and def base stat each by 5 and add it to health (which according to you is the best since health is lowest). Base stat is now 95 95 110. With the same buffs (%) you final stats are now 190 190 176. So the question is: is 200 200 160 better or 190 190 176? You need to test this. Both the sum (200 + 200 + 160 = 560 vs. 190 + 190 + 176 = 556) and the multiplication (2 x 2 x 1.6 = 6.4 vs. 1.9 x 1.9 x 1.76 = 6.3536) shows attack and defense base stats are better (?). Please let us know!
I want to bring light to a different scenario, something more related to your previous video, to show the reason why health bonus (%) can be better, but not necessarily the base stat health. Again with a base stat of 100 100 100 with a (100% 100% 60% bonus), resulting the final stat to be 200 200 160. With a slight change in equipment, runes, etc I increased the health bonus (%). Lets say I converted the bonus to (90% 90% 80%). With this new bonus, the final stat has become 190 190 180. The sum of all the stats are now the same, however when we compare the multiplication (2 x 2 x 1.6 = 6.4 vs. 1.9 x 1.9 x 1.8 = 6.498) we can see that changing the bonus (%) to health has helped! This is a lot of math to take in but I am an engineer and I calculate these trivial things haha
Hi brother, can you make a video on how much troop loss happens with each attack/defense/health research in Academy after T4. I see the percentage value of attack, defense and health, but I would like to see it in action. But I don't know how to implement this, as each research takes many days in between and you may have different alliance/kingdom or other buffs at different times. Instead of Osiris practise matches, you may battle with less number of troops to reduce healing cost.
Should i reset if im 140 days in and made many mistakes even tho i have invested moeny into the game and i wont be able to invest moeny into a new kingdom
I think the legionnaires are the best infantry unit. They had just as good or better stats then the other units. Also why does no one say Rome is good in ROK? Rome has an infantry defense and Rome has other great boosts.
I am a F2P infantry player im currently playing as Germany so my question is do i change my civ to Rome as they have the special units + some infantry stats , but i also like the buffs that Germany gives . ( i have 1 civ change token btw )
hello chisguile i wonder whats the best civilization for infantry theres 2 more new civilization and i dont know which one is better. Thanks if you notice this.
but dont you think that attack is more important for nuking commanders, as their nuke calculates from attack? Sorry if you already mentioned so vor 1 Tag
Is a player supposed to only focus on 1 troop type? If not, then what's the point of changing civilization? If u only focus on 1 type, wouldn't u run out of good commanders to use?
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i was always thinking it is situational at least for the cavalry since they are the troop type i use.When you are swarming something and the raport between dmg dealt/dmg taken is in your favor i think conquistadors work the best.And when you have very high skill dmg commanders such as minamoto or pelagius you may want to stay in the fight as long as you can and count on your general's skills to deal a lot of dmg in that situation i would pick bizantynium cavalry and so on.Personally i think they should add a special ability to every special unit so theu create a unique playstyle of each of them,thanks if you did read till here guys and good luck on your things
15:14 France also has health bonus and healing speed bonus, what a healthy civilization
Ha! Worthy joke
If you are an elderly, choose France.
Excellent vids lately, we need more deep dives into the game mechanics
I agree thanks chis💕
instablaster
Thumbnail: shows that Conquistadors are for noobs
Me: *cries in Conquistadors*
consquistadors are beasts. he is biased because of his discoveries of the health stat. wich is fine. i myself have played with teutonic and conquistadors and you can feel conquistador damage difference quiete easy. having said that i use german because they give 5%atk plus the teutonic knight is tanky and the sweet ap regen
True
Still, that thumbnail hurts 😂
I use Rome
Spain is weaker than german?
First of all, I like to thank you for the effort you putting on making these really informative videos about game deep mechanics lately, we are really missing videos like that to actually help bring to light how the game works =)
I do agree with the idea of the stat that you have the least when we are talking about the % bonus increases.
HOWEVER:
I would argue that for base stats is actually the opposite.
Since look, the % is on top of your base stat so if you increase the base stat by 5% you actually increase the TOTAL of that stat by 5% witch is way better than the extra 5% to the % bonus you already have.
Taking the normal unit as an example with 200% attack, 220 base attack going to 660 with the bonus, you put a city skin with 5% extra bonus attack it goes to 671 an increase of 11 that is about 1.6% of total stat increase.
Now if you look in the increase that having lets say the conquistador instead of the skin: you have a 12 point increase roughly 5.45% increase on the base stat comparing to the base unit with the same 200% attack you have 696 instead of 660 its a 36 point increase. To achieve this 5.45% total increase you would need a 16.36% increase on the bonus % going from 200% to 216,36%.
And this discrepancy gets more bigger and bigger as the bonus % increases, so if you had 300% instead of 200% :
Base Unit: 220 + 300% => 880
Increasing the bonus to 305% => 891 same 11 stat increase but now only a 1.2% overall increase.
Going from base unit to conquistador => 232 + 300% => 928 a 48 stat increase and the same 5,45% increase.
But now to match that same increase you need 21,8% extra to the bonus stats going from 300% to 321%.
So if we look like that, yes increasing the % bonus of the stat you have the least will have a represent a higher overall impact on the stat than on a stat you have a higher percentage.
HOWEVER as I demonstrated having a special unity with the highest stat on the stat you have the highest % bonus means the highest TOTAL increase in stats.
This is specially big on modes like ark where you have the 200% increase of attack on top of your normal bonus, and when we think on that well that 12 increase on attack might actually compare to almost a 30% % bonus increase which is really huge. (like my AT has 208.5% bonus attack without token so would be a 408.5% total bonus and on that scenario is comparable to 27.73% stat increase).
Wouldn't say to pick Spain solely because of that but I would certainly rank the Mameluke over the Teutonic knight for example, increasing even more the fact that arabia is pure awesomeness.
wow, wasn't expecting to make such a long comment lol, again great work on those stat and game mechanic vid's we really need them!
If you disagree with me I would love to keep the discussion going, in the end game all is left for us is micro optimization's so is the only thing I actually think of right now =)
So in your opinion the mamluk ia the best cavalry unit?
Attack is stronger against health as it does more dmg, defense stronger against attack as it can tank health stronger than defense as defense does little attack and health has loads of hp (imo)
dude: the thing is that ottoman gives 5 health to archer. So, that probably adds to the janisary, which is probably real good.
I'm focus on cavs but I choose Ottoman for skill damage and march speed since my marches are doing nuke damage 3 cavs 1 archer and 1 infantry.
Ottoman seemed perfect to my playing style when i first picked the civilization 5 months ago.
Hp for archers is exactly what i need especially when you LOVE skill damage!
extra march speed was a lovely cherry on the top.
Ottomans was absolutely perfect for my playing style!
Yes, u right bc i only see whale can play Ottoman =)) even u spend high u can play Britain better, only way u spend really much u can play long game with ottoman
Man ottoman is very good..my fav with japan
It’s better for late game than early game
You definitely need to name this series of videos :D like ''RoK science'' or something and have additional playlist to make it easy to find this kind of videos. Because this is pure gold!
Thanks for the video, it was really great to see Chisgule spending time trying to bring values to all the players! Great job and keep this up!
BUT I still want to point out as a number of people already did below, the boosting statistic ranking I agree should be health > defence > attack for 1V1. For the base statistic, Spain actually ranks the top following by Arabia and then Germany and Byzantium:
1) Without applying anything else (like the holy site, building, alliance technology etc), the max sta boost you get from your own technology only is Att/Def at 70%, Health at 40%.
2) By doing a simple calculation on each special unit you will find the total sum of the three sta after applying the technology boost to be 1057.2 (Spain), 1057.1(Arabia), 1053.7 (Germany) 1040.2 (Byzantium).
The next interesting question (and you are welcome Chis for giving you another video content idea :P) would be testing out the different commanders (which are one of the most influential factors affecting boost) with these different troops types. I am sure there are for some commanders, one of these types are going to provide a better result (e.g., Cao Cao with Conquistadors are going to be better than Cao Cao with Cataphract in 1v1 situation).
One disclaimer here is that this question is only framed for the special unit angle, I think Germany, as a civilization, is way better than Spain and the 4 sta difference I am sure is not a big deal!
I think there is a serious flaw in this methodology. You claim that attack is the worst stat and health is the best because of the way stats stack multiplicatively with one another, which is true, but thats only because % boosts of the same type are additive. If I have a 20% attack boost and a 10% attack boost, that comes out to being a 30% attack boost because it is additive. If it was multiplicative it would be 20% x 10% which is 32%.
If the special unit buff was an additive % boost you would be correct in stating that attack is the worst stat and health is the best because of the math you did in your previous video. *However* the special unit bonus directly modifies the *base stats* of the unit. Which means it is *MULTIPLICATIVE* and not additive. What this means is that your logic is actually backwards. You want your highest stat to line up with the stat that you have the highest % boost to so you can get the most bonus stats.
To demonstrate, say you add 10 bonus points to attack versus 10 bonus points to health, and you have 200% bonus attack and 100% bonus health respectively. The base stats are added *before* the multiplication happens, and not after. This means that 10 bonus points to attack become 30 points of attack since you have a 200% boost, and 10 bonus points to health become only 20 points of health.
That being said I could be wrong if the bonus points are applied *after* the multiplication is done, but that would make no sense since they are supposed to be added to the *base* stats, which implies before multiplication is done and not after.
SPOT ON. CHISGULE wake up
You are right, of course the special units have base stats boosted and these stats are multiplied everytime.
How is 20 % x 10 % = 32%?
@@thebiglebowski6965 Actualy it is 1.1×1.2=1.32, the writing is not very correct but the result is
@@Writeous0ne It's all the same. Health, attack, defense is utilized together. I fail to see how any one of those 3 is magically better than the other 2. It just makes no sense. I fail to see how a unit with 10 attack 10 defense 20 health is better than one with 20 attack 10 defense 10 health. Given a scenario where both attack at the same time, they both kill each other instantly, thus no one stat is better than another. It's about the sum of all 3 vs the opponents sum of all 3.
after watching yesterday's video, i was thinking, how about civilizations? everyone says rome is good, but france health is :O for example, and here you are reading my mind haha
[7:55] It is not ~6% (more like 18%).
If you have the +10 base attack and +%200 attack you end up with +30 attack in total
So, in principle, the stats you have more modifier is better
i switched from Arabia to Spain since Chsiguel recommended it. I think i'am glad i picked spain seeing the table shown in this video. you're videos has been so helpful chisgule and I have been doing them, great help! thank you very much and I hope success for your channels :)
Deciding what to stack for base stats by what was best for % stats isn't an accurate comparison in this case especially for AoO. An example would be for AoO since you have the 200% attack buff 12 points on base stats is actually 36 points of attack before your other tech is added. This may mean that even though % attack increase is the worst stat in cases like AoO it may become the best base stat increase due to the sheer amount of bonus you get from increasing it for AoO. This example also works with health, since health has the lowest % increase adding 12 points of base stat to health will actually add 24 points of health assuming 100% bonus health with normal tech. But adding 12 points to defense or attack which normally have +200% modifiers or more will net you 36 points of stats or more. Health may still be the best even taking this into consideration but hard to know without the formula for how stats interact/a spreadsheet to calculate stat weights with your current values. I enjoy the videos going into mechanics like this though so keep them coming.
I was goin to bed and this popped out in my notification
Now Im gonna watch it
No one can resist a good vid😂😂😂😂
I really like ur vids how you go deeper into the game and even I am learning things even tough ive played this game for 2 years
Chisgule is such a great and mad scientist. I hope he finds the corona cure.
😂😂
Hello
Isnt there already many cures?
he said health is the best stats over all so you should focus on your health to curte the corona virus
@@karenbear677 hello
I’m using Conquistadors atm and I love them. I’m getting positive trades, melting forts and generally positive reports. However I haven’t KvK tested them for hospital bills lol 😂 🤷🏻♂️
@jeff pentagon your point is rather interesting, and hugely delayed reply I know 😆 I’m wanting to change my cav civ again, I’m currently Germany, it was cones as mentioned. I’m now eyeing up the Arabian cavalry as it has the same health but higher attack over defence. I’m using marches like genghis and William which are massive glass canons and I melt anyway so why not boost my damage even more. I run a Saladin Takeda as my bulk march. I just can’t find a single place that gives in detail stat breakdowns for each civ, and are the civ bonuses already taken into account in the stats or do we add them after ??
Isn't there some extra benefit because these are extra base stats and not extra bonus stats? For example, if you have, say, a unit with base 200 attack and a special unit with 210 attack, and you have a total of 100% bonus for attack. Then the special unit will actually have 20 effective extra stats (because it'll be 210 + 210 instead of 200 + 200). So it's not quite fair to compare them to bonus stats, because the extra base stats will be multiplied by some base value--i.e., instead of a 6% difference we may be looking at a 12% difference.
I also observe that your bonus multiplier on health is much lower than the one for attack or defense. Looking at the teutonic knight stats at 7:47, your health bonus is a bit over half, while the attack and defense bonuses are each over 100%. So your extra base health is doing less work than your extra base attack/defense: 10 extra base health on that unit would add up to about 15-16 total health (base + bonus) but 10 extra attack or defense will add up to 20-21 total stats (base + bonus).
Chisgule thanks for video, I love how you put so much emphasis in theorycrafting . I have a theory which I would be happy to have commented by you. I think that for % stat you would want to max the least one and for flat stat - the one which you have more % bonuses.
% increase diminishes. If you have 100 flat health and 100 flat attack and your attack is +100% and health is +0%. If your gross gain is +10% I would want it to be health as for net gain your health bumps 10% up from 100 to 110. But for attack which is already 200 (100 flat +100%) 10% gross will give you 5% net (210 from 200).
However for flat stat, if you choose between 10 health and 10 attack, you mind multiplicators. So in the same example your attack will get from 200 to 220 and health from 100 to 110, both is 10% net gain. However the net flat outcome is 20 attack versus 10 health.
Let’s now think of more complicated scenario. You have 100% attack and 100 attack and 0% health with 50(now) health.
10 flat health gives you 20% net income and 10 pts net health.
10 fist attack gives you only 10% net attack BUT 20 pts net attack gain
So I would say that there are many factors measuring stat weight at particular time and I think that technically it is possible to get it into any formula with so much tests.
What’s your thoughts on this?
It's elementary school math, and you are 100% correct, you want the highest base stats possible, so conquistadors are the best cavalry for AOO for instance.
Tl dr - for base stats:
Attack boost ~ defence boost >>> health boost
Anyone else find it slightly annoying that the starting commander does not match the special unit. Like britain having a peacekeeping commander in boudica rather than an archer commander.
And china sun tzu is an infantry commander when chinas special units are archers
Me
Don’t forget about japan, an infantry civ, having Kusunoki, an archer commander.
Brilliant video Chisgule, very incisive. Really good content recently man👍
Hmm. You say you want more points in the stats that you have the lowest boost on, and I agree on principle when comparing boosts.
However, wouldn't you want to have as high a base as possible on the same stat where you have the highest boost? For example, Conquistador vs Teutonic Knight: 12 points difference in Attack would translate into about 24 extra points from the AoO boost alone, for a total difference of 36 in the favor of Conquistadors.
The problem with increasing your health stats is that you will also increase the amount of rss needed to heal them. At the end of the day attack is the best because it helps with pvp but also with pve. Whereas defense helps with pvp but not much versus pve.
So happy you decided to make this video. I've been wondering about this lately.
I don’t think you mentioned this, but the Teutonic knight gets a 5% ATK boost with no extra points on base ATK and vice versa with Spain.
Thank you for the description☺
I actually had no idea about the differences in stats with each Special Unit! Great Video! Also I just got Alexander 😁
Tony Ross u r lying
Literally been wanting this video for soo long thx chis ur content is amazing!
with 5% health for cavalry from Byzantium civ, makes Cataphracts the unit with most health. Purely based on stats that should be the number one pick for cavalry
I'm afraid that's not how it works when you add in technology. The base stats of a unit matter more than just 5% health bonus. For example, the teutonic knight is def + health while the cataphract is just defens e. Adding in scaling, Teutonic knights are tankier due to the health+def on their base stats.
Another solid video thanks. Here's what I believe should be the order of civilizations imho. When you start a new account, pick China, when you reach around 5-8 million power, switch to Spain, why? Most people underestimate the extra 20% rss production, but if you max upgrade all your resources in the city, with the 20% extra rss you'll get massive amounts of rss passively without even farming a lot. Late game I would pick either Ottoman for the march speed and active skill or Arabia for the rally boost, especially if you're a rally captain. That's just t how I view it and how I'm doing it myself.
I personally think that you can prioritize any special unit you want to. I personally like attack the most but that is probably because I like to be a berserker type (I know that's not good, I'm working on it). I guess if you take for example the elite longbowman you should also specialise your gear around attack since the unit has the highest base attack so you gain the most out of powering that up. But that does of course not mean you should neglect the other stats. Tricky to get a good balance in there
Hi Chisgule. Is health the most important stat for all troop types? Or is it less important for units like archers, were you usually look for more damage dealing. Please your opinion.
I used belisarius and baibars in a war ._.
Now im using suntzu with ysg and im expertising Pelagius and baibars to use in wars
Hi Chisgule, i felt that you've made a BIG mistake in the math.
From what i can understand,
there should always be a [Base * Modifier = Result ] stat in rok games.
so if the modifier is like 200% atk in osiris,
shouldnt having a larger base stat allow the 200% to be multiplied more? thus meaning that, the Elite crossbowman unit(unit with most atk) benefit most from the modifier instead?
i felt that you are confusing between base state and modifier states and their impacts.
I am multiplying by 3 because i am understanding that the 200% bonus + 100% original, without taking into account of other tech bonuses.
232 * 3 = 696
220 * 3 = 660
696/660 = 1.05++%
36 more in stat per unit
so my understanding is that, we would always want more health modifiers, but we would actuall want atk increase in the base stats. let me know if i am wrong.
Yes but Ark of osiris is the only place where you have the attack gain, so you can't make generalized judgements based on that. For most game activities, the math is fine, and not considering Ark which is a very specific game mode is not a BIG mistake. He even covers this in his video outlining why Health is the best stat to have boosted overall.
6 mins . Discord notification was 6 mins late.
Excellent video Chis... Loved the "Mad Scientist" 's tone and expression. :)
Been wanting a vid like this for a while. Now here it is and it's awesome.
This video answers all of my questions. Thank you!
Thanks for the information. The vids seem to only get better 😀
thanks for the new content Chis. thanks for ur hard work. Keep up the good work man
Byzantium and France seem to the best civs for f2p. My fave is still Japan because those Samurai look dang cool.
@John Hobza Stay with Britain. That training speed is incredibly helpful. If you do dedide to switch civilizations, use alliance currency instead of gems
My plan is stick with spain until I've maxed my base and research, then switch to Germany for kvk 2.
Im impress..coz im a cav user and im focusing on the ark and also im on germany civilization...THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO...AND PLSSS MAKE MORE VIDS ON ROK...THANKS
Chisgule I love your vids they help me a lot
using the peacekeeper as a test doesn't show the importance of defense to help with the attacks(skill damage that was lacked in the test). but thank you for your time and helping
Love you chisgule .Can’t imagine playing this game without you
man. i wanna put more than 10 likes for this video . 😂 but i can't .
thanks Dr.Chisgule
Hey Chisgule,
actually it works a little different in the min maxing point of view.
I still cant tell which stat is the most important in which situation and how the battle formula works, but base stats work like this.
You base stats of the Unit elevates the worth of the % Bonus
So lets say you have a 200% Boost to Cav Attack!
and compare Conquistador 232 Attack and normal Unit 220 Attack.
After your Bonus applied on the field you have 696 Attack and 660 Attack.
The Civilization which gives you ádditional 12 attack, results in 36 Attack per Unit because the Bonus% is applied to the base Value.
So it would actually make sense to ether Boost the highest Base Stat you have or to Choose the Civ with the highest base vlaue of the Boost you have the most with your Main Unit.
Using Attila /Takeda with 250% Attack Boost this difference is even increased to 42 Attack per Unit.
I hope thats correct and helpful.
Cheers and Greetings from 1509
Are you considering the difference between stats and stat percentages? In this video you continue to say that health is the most useful to increase but as you get lower stat percentages in health the increase is worth less so surely it is less useful.
Best rok content creator hands down
agreed
@Alex Lee You're being ass for no reason hands down
Looking sharp as always Chisgule.
Good thing I picked France as my last civilization because my infantry commander is infantry nice thank you chisgule for the information!!
you must take into account that the infantry will tank and the cavalry will arrive with the damage, so in theory the best cavalry is the one with the most damage.
Therefore germany?
What makes me confused is that why all the special units gain the same extra bonus points in t4 (10 in total more than normal unit) but different in t5 (11-13 in total more than normal unit)
Very nive vid! Thank you!
Update this one when they release the new civ!
Cheers
PhoRome
Hey Chisgule, do u know did the RoK take back that players healing limit? F2P players will get destroyed or stop playing if need to use such rss for T4-5 units. I'm not using real money that much and it would start costing some 20-30€:s more /month just buy heal speedups
You're on a roll! These are the videos that we need!
Does your rankings take into consideration the “civilization” buffs? What if the 5% cav health for Byzantium?
Yes exactly what i was thinking imo it's change everything
I didn't understand why you didn't emphasize "attack" . And what's best for Cavalry (ATTACK ONLY) ?
I play by Spain because i like their special unit. And i don't care about 5 percent of differennce because it doesn't make huge impact in battles.
great vid chis! is there a stream tonight for the dragon boat events ?
Another nice video, keep it up chis 👌
You are making a mistake saying attack is the stat you care the least about. If you have the most %-wise boost to attack, then you want your base attack to be higher as your percentage boost is more effective then. Be careful when comparing base stats to boosts of base stats, they do not work the same way. You could still be right, but it needs extensive testing to conclude that.
Sorry for ruining your entire research 😅
Example: if you have 12 extra attack as base stat, then your 200% attack buff in ark will grant you an extra 24 attack compared to using the non-special unit
Personally i switch between britain china and the vikings. I like how destructive the berserkers are but my main commander is the legendary commander from expedition (an archer) so i like britain too
Ima be honest. Your videos are consistently really good. Like...20 minutes...damn dude you going at it all the time 👍. You really do need better appreciation
I am currently Rome but I’m torn if I should swap over to France for kvk.. I can field 3 infantry marches. I’ve enjoyed Rome as a civilization, but the 20% healing speed in France looks really solid. How much does 20% healing speed matter ? Cheers
After watching this video I thought the same too, I‘m relatively new to the game (season 1 of lost kingdom) I‘m currently with Using China. I thought if I field 3-4 Infantry plus the 3% health boost and 20% healing speed it would be great. What do you think? Did you finally Switch to France? Or did you find something better?
Genius you did yesterday an viedeo which we need to watch for this one
Chisgule..... you have been on FIRE my man! thank you for for all the new content
Good video but the math is flawed here. You need to distinguish between base stats and boosted stats as a percentage.
Boosted stats do not get amplified further so it is good to add to the lowest boost. For example: increase health from 105% to 110% is much more helpful than increase defense from 205% to 210%. Even though they go up by the same amount numbers wise, adding to the lower number makes a bigger impact.
Base stats, on the other hand, DOES get amplified by stat boosters, so you WANT the stats with the biggest amplifier attached to it. For example, 12 points of health with a 100% boost (France) turns to 24 extra points of health, and 12 points of defense with a 200% boost (Rome) turns to 36 points of defense, which is better than 24 points of health. On this note, Japan is absolutely the best inf for ark because they get an extra 200% boost which is 24 points of attack in ark.
In conclusion, because there are more defense buffs than health for inf, I’d say Rome definitely has the better special troop. Even Japan has an argument here despite not having good civ boosts.
@chisgule gaming, do you see new Britain features. Could you share your opinion
I wonder when will we have new civs and more building with different functions
Nice video btw
Hi chisgule, saw your recent upload and your using a elite mamluk and and in this video your suggesting teutonic knight.. i just want to know if your reason for using mamluk now.. if is ok
Hey chis can you recommend to lilith to add in a trading system for items say if you don’t need a certain type of commander sculpture but another person needs it you can give it to that person
France has so many health bonuses. Coffee and baguettes must be good for you.
I like the analysis. But here is my thought: The base stats difference do matter like you said. Lets say a normal unit has a base stat of 100 atk 100 def 100 health. Due to technology and other boosts, your final stat could be sth like 200 200 160 (100% 100% 60% bonus). Now lets decrease the atk and def base stat each by 5 and add it to health (which according to you is the best since health is lowest). Base stat is now 95 95 110. With the same buffs (%) you final stats are now 190 190 176. So the question is: is 200 200 160 better or 190 190 176? You need to test this. Both the sum (200 + 200 + 160 = 560 vs. 190 + 190 + 176 = 556) and the multiplication (2 x 2 x 1.6 = 6.4 vs. 1.9 x 1.9 x 1.76 = 6.3536) shows attack and defense base stats are better (?). Please let us know!
I want to bring light to a different scenario, something more related to your previous video, to show the reason why health bonus (%) can be better, but not necessarily the base stat health. Again with a base stat of 100 100 100 with a (100% 100% 60% bonus), resulting the final stat to be 200 200 160. With a slight change in equipment, runes, etc I increased the health bonus (%). Lets say I converted the bonus to (90% 90% 80%). With this new bonus, the final stat has become 190 190 180. The sum of all the stats are now the same, however when we compare the multiplication (2 x 2 x 1.6 = 6.4 vs. 1.9 x 1.9 x 1.8 = 6.498) we can see that changing the bonus (%) to health has helped! This is a lot of math to take in but I am an engineer and I calculate these trivial things haha
What is the best civilization for pedestrians please reply and thank you
I'm thinking about starting an account on rok. I was wondering if there is a troop upkeep cost?
Luckily this game doesn’t have upkeep :)
Until u fight lol
Thanks... Its very informative... But if the attributes are changed cuz it been 3 year... Can you make a new toturial on it plz... 👍👍
I just started playing and i picked the Japanese, I'm honestly loving it so far
Hi brother, can you make a video on how much troop loss happens with each attack/defense/health research in Academy after T4. I see the percentage value of attack, defense and health, but I would like to see it in action. But I don't know how to implement this, as each research takes many days in between and you may have different alliance/kingdom or other buffs at different times. Instead of Osiris practise matches, you may battle with less number of troops to reduce healing cost.
Would the Cataphract not have the best health stats for calvary given that that civ has a 5% health boost to cavs?
chisgule I started playing rok recently and learned alot watching ur vids.. Just wanted to say your vids are excellent!!
Thanks!!
Iwant to see rhony reactions to conquistador
Should i reset if im 140 days in and made many mistakes even tho i have invested moeny into the game and i wont be able to invest moeny into a new kingdom
I dont understand eng very well.. pls write a short conclusion: what is the best cav unit? Inf unit? Arch unit? Thx
I think the legionnaires are the best infantry unit. They had just as good or better stats then the other units. Also why does no one say Rome is good in ROK? Rome has an infantry defense and Rome has other great boosts.
I have used rome, it is good.
Where was Viking?
Hello CHIS can i ask question...after the lost temple being open..how many days KVK will start? Thanks
Binge watching all these guides.
I am a F2P infantry player im currently playing as Germany so my question is do i change my civ to Rome as they have the special units + some infantry stats , but i also like the buffs that Germany gives . ( i have 1 civ change token btw )
hello chisguile i wonder whats the best civilization for infantry theres 2 more new civilization and i dont know which one is better.
Thanks if you notice this.
What do you think ist the right Time to Switch cicilizations?
but dont you think that attack is more important for nuking commanders, as their nuke calculates from attack? Sorry if you already mentioned so
vor 1 Tag
Is legionary better than samurai,I think legionary
Is a player supposed to only focus on 1 troop type? If not, then what's the point of changing civilization? If u only focus on 1 type, wouldn't u run out of good commanders to use?
Isn’t archers meant of dps even with the boosts towards defense they still frail but attack buffs good
if i change my CIV? Does it affect my current Civ special unit.like samurais if i change into another.Does they turn into normal unit?
Yes