Great advice. I received emails from clients wanting to return the amp they bought from me only to change their mind after moving their speakers. Only after they reposition their speakers that they start hearing what all the reviews are glowing about.
An amp will either pair with a pair of speaker and have synergy or it won't. Moving the speakers may, and I say may give a slight improvement if they were not setup correctly to begin with, but there will be no magical moment.
@@JerryM-p2v A specific case would be, the client originally had the speakers toe in. With the new amp, he found it a bit lively and the bass became very strong. So he toe them out and moved the speakers a bit further out from the front wall. By doing so, the extra liveliness is gone but now the soundstage is wider. The bass became balanced and because he moved the speakers further out, the 3D soundstage formed. With the older amp, he could not do that because it did not have bass if he pulled them out, so he needed to keep the speakers close to the wall for bass reinforcement. He could not set them up correctly to start off with because he would have to trade bass for soundstage which he is not willing to do. So with his old amp, that was the optimal correct positioning since he favors bass and not that he set it up incorrectly to begin with. I have many other examples, but I will end up writing a book.
Thomas, exactly. It can occur with anything in front of the speakers. Most people appreciate that the speakers interact with the room acoustically but will not accept that what comes out of a speaker is controlled by what goes into it which effects how it interacts with the room. It does matter and it does effect the speaker. I see one person has written about amplifier - speaker interaction as being the cause. Well, yes, that too can certainly can be an issue. Anyone who has successfully owned Magnepans knows that. Speaker impedance, inductance, and capacitance can effect the performance of an amplifier. But you can not ignore the tonal characteristics that also occur in that interaction.
@@ThomasAndStereo Exactly, and sometimes you have to change the wall you are working on from short to long. I had that happen once and even the manufacturer could not get the short wall to work once he upgraded their electronics. It was a complete Linn System. Now, as I told others, tape off the original position so you know where to go back to when the original system is restored to complete the sort of A-B-A understanding of the change in equipment. The other element of this is to try to keep the comparisons short and exact. Once you start going into long stretches, 5 minutes to and hour, your pretty much toast. If you can not tell if a live musical group is any good after 5 minutes, well, you are in trouble. My example there is the typical American Wedding reception band. You don't see people rushing to the doors to get in but more likely to get out!
I don't necessarily agree with part 1 of the video. In my books the ONLY way to evaluate a piece of gear is to only change that gear and NOTHING else (not even where the gear sits on the shelf for instance). If we are changing the speaker location we drastically alter tons of factors that make it almost impossible to really tell how changing one equipment in the chain altered the overall sound. Not to mention if that piece is changing the overall tonal balance drastically there was a huge problem with the system in the first place. When it comes to really fine-tuning the overall system I agree with this, especially when it comes to soundstaging issues. But that is vastly different from evaluation of a single change in the system (which is what it should be).
I understand your view but experience time and again, even with room treatment, leaves me to the conclusions I have stated. Now, certainly I would mark the floor with tape as to the original position so that you can restore the set-up. Otherwise, it simply becomes whether or not the foot fits in a different shoe.
@@audibleeleganceinc I respect your opinion but I disagree :) If you found the best place for the speakers in the room, it makes no sense to reposition them just because you are evaluating gear. I have never heard a gear that alters the sound so much that my room reflections change (it's hilarious to even write down). The only thing that could potentially change is the way you perceive space, otherwise what you hear is what you get. Bass is boomy? then the gear made your bass boomy. If you want to live with the gear then ABSOLUTELY do change the speaker position. If you are reviewing the gear, HELL NO!! How would you even reference it if you change your "reference"? That is my only point. The difference for me is if you want to make it work or you want to evaluate/review gear. Those two scenarios differ a lot.
And to add to this, I can only take reviewers seriously if they use a reference they know very well and explain what difference they hear by changing ONLY the equipment. I respect if they try to make it work with other gear or speaker positions too, but that should be an added bonus on how you can get the best out of that particular equipment. If you change 1 degree in your speaker position and THEN evaluate the baseline, you are failing objectively. That is why Harman evaluates gear with blind tests (actually they are also developing VR headsets to evaluate how we hear speaker position changes). Harman did amazing research in the past few decades on speaker-room interactions, it's worth reading about it :)
@@portwill Oh, I am sure the folks at Samsung, their owner, is very interested in these results as they try to fine tune how systems are set up, particularly home theater where all sorts of things have been going on for years. Again, I disagree with your position as it ignores the tonal changes each product brings to the table and if a given system is tuned to a particular location, how can you be certain that it is actually a reference rather than a compromise itself to how that system performs? You are making a very risky assumption that the first system is correct and ignoring the interaction of the system with the room. To me, that's why so many systems as shows sound terrible because they want to use standard positions despite the characteristics of the room. I have heard some real crap, for example, out of Wilson Audio which is a very fine product. Conversely, folks like Music Hall are consistent in results, not the best, but certainly consistent above many self-acclaimed leaders of the industry.
That makes no sense. If you don't demo the equipment in your own listening space you will have no idea what its going to sound like with the rest of your components.. The fact is, the room is the room, its either treated or not? The triangle and distance between speakers the wall and where you sit need to be set from the beginning. Cables are the most noticeable addition, but do not require speaker realignment. When i added new speakers to my systems, i took the time to set them up correctly, The last pair took 4 hours to get dialled in.I swapped out a single power amp for mono blocks, and didn't have to change the speakers at all. I have swapped out a DAC and phono stage with not having to change the speakers. I have had amps that are dull flat and dead, VS bright and lively. Had nothing to do with the position of the speakers, that was all amp design and room related acoustics.
If the speakers are bad, besides incorrectly or correctly positioning, you can change everything (cables, amps, sources, etc) that the speakers will continue to be heard poorly. If the speakers are good or excellent probably will mitigate or alleviate amps or sources that are dull , obscure, bright or apparently dead.
@@vitusalekhine Well as i said if your speakers are not in the correct position to begin with you will have issues. Once the speakers have been placed INITIALLY, then components will not effect the location of the speakers. This Guy just wants you to buy his components blind, take them home and then you own them.
I agree with you about proper placement of the speaker as a beginning and despite some comments I don't believe the dispersion pattern changes. But, as the ear can hear as little as a 1/10 of a decible difference, and how those frequencies interact with the room, particularly resonances, I will stand by my position. Where it really get's all out of shape is when people have a change and then start using all sorts of room treatments to correct for the addition. It happens, I've seen it. It is often times why systems at shows sound like crap.
Nope unless you can not move your speakers. Then, yes. Otherwise, no. Apples to Apples assumes no tonal difference between the products and no interaction with the room.
@@audibleeleganceinc To hear the affect an amp has on your speakers, there needs to be a constant or reference to judge from. The speakers are going to excite different room nodes when moved, there would be no real way to know if it is the front end gear or the speaker placement. I don't think you understand room acoustics, even in a well treated room I would not move the speakers! You make it sound like an amp can change the dispersion characteristics of a speaker and how it interacts with the room! I don't believe people are making the mistake you claim, they just understand their situation (and room) allot better than you think they do!
@@emmet7208 Well, having worked with the head of the American Acoustical Society, 50 years of experience, and work with Art Noxon of ASC doesn't account for much then. I find your aspersions interesting. So, tell me about your experiences and qualifications. I'm most curious.
At the shop, if everything is in place, you should hear the "potential" and quality of the speakers. Then there are your room problems to overcome and the position of the speakers at your listening room. But if you take the speakers home, and everything there is a mess (acoustically speaking) you won't be apple to appreciate how good de speakers can sound, and start the usual buyers procession into brands, stores, cables, etc. So is perfectly OK to hear demos at specialised stores and hear the advice of people with experience and knowledge.
Exactly. Unfortunately, many shops are so poorly set up that you really don't get to hear potentials of anything. Most are set up like the video sections in Walmarts.
Excellent advice! It costs only time to reposition your speakers. I would go a step further. Before testing something new in your system, make sure your speaker placement is optimized first. Assuming this has not already been done. Then make the change, addition, etc, with the speaker placement optimized, then you will be able to guage how much better, if any, your system actually sounds. Thanks, Lou, for finding the time to produce these videos when you have family issues to tend to that have a higher priority. John in Dayton
John, thank you your observations and an emergency run to Cleveland on Monday just got cancelled as the doctor is not available to do the procedure. As for speakers, as I mentioned to another, I would certainly tape off on the floor the position of the speakers before moving them so that you can restore them to the original position if so desired.
Gaffers tape works well on carpet. Thanks for the reminder. Thanks for letting me know that the procedure was canceled. I'm holding you both in my thoughts.
@johncrockford4216 John, you're validating my question (above). Yes, your speaker placement is optimized. Regardless, that "optimal" placement may need to change as I'm interpreting Lou's advice.
Great point. I had an experience where I changed amps, that I could not get it to work with my speakers and room. Bass that was just fine was now, way too fat. Since it is a shared space and not a dedicated listening room placement options are limited as much as I tried, I could not get things to work. Sadly, it was an aspirational product that required a lot of resources to obtain. I wound up putting them on consignment and fortunately got a decent enough return on investment and was able to audition and obtain something that worked a lot better. Leaned the hard way how important that synergy between component, speaker, and room is.
@ridirefain6606 Me thinks that there may be limitations on speaker adjustments in response to changes in what I call "synergy"; how my sources feed my amp and then the amplified signal to my speakers. I'm quite please that what has sometimes been critiqued about a harshness with the Ortofon Blue cartridge is offset by the warmth of my amp and how it "interacts" with my speakers. Serendipity, planning, or a little bit of both?
Thank you for contributing your experiences. As much as I try to explain this to some, well, they just don't follow it. My greatest failure, personally speaking, was trying to put Magnepan speakers in a room with dormers. It was a complete disaster. Now, in this case, it clearly was a problem with dispersion vs. room shape and changes in equipment would not save the situation. Changing the speakers did. Once moved to another room, then the equipment clearly became the issue. So, these observations are not without personal experience as well as helping customers.
Oh yes, indeed. I have owned Quad, Magnepan, and Martin Logan. So, you really understand that changes before them can really have an effect. Thank you for contributing to my channel and please do subscribe and tell others about my work. There are over 165 videos up with so many more to come.
3 месяца назад
What if you have a system with 2 sources? I have to move my speakers depending on if im listening to a cd or lp?
Interesting thought and a logical extension of my approach. I don't do it. I don't recommend it as you begin to put the hobby between music and you. Would there be a difference? I would not be surprised. I put that sort of thing in the same class and having adjustable VTA on the fly on a tonearm. Yes, it makes a difference but you become a sound chaser. Then, logically we can get into how the recording was equalized or what microphones and the tale to minutiae goes on. The whole point is to acknowledge that tonal changes can have a significant effect on the musicality of a system and to get a true understanding of what that change brings may require the "re-voicing" within the room when evaluating a new piece of equipment. And, again, none of this changes the dispersion pattern of the drivers for those who keep mistakenly bringing this up. Thanks for the poke.
Well, not for the speakers per se. However, how you have your components arranged can affect the performance of the system. For example, D/A or streaming devices can emit RF that interferes typically with preamps. At it's worst, it takes the form of either a buzz or hum (like an open ground). The same held true for CD players, DVD players and Blu-Ray players which is why they have an FCC registration on them because they do emit RF. I know you were having some fun with me but I thought I would take the moment to take it one step further.
@@WoodSmartUSA The other one to watch out for, if you have an outboard phono stage, is it's location near both digital devices and large transformers like those found in power amps. Thank you for your comment as this is actually going to become another video for folks. I love new ideas.
To be honest, Keith, I don't recognize those terms or don't want to misinterpret them. I listen first for rhythm. If the band or orchestra can not stay in sync with each other, it's over. I'd say about 80% of all systems I hear are washed out by that test. Then, I listen for pitch accuracy note to note much like folks can hear the wrong note played on a piano. Then, I will go for emotion which can be done by the key the music is written or more simply by listening to a vocal. These are the first three tests of evaluating any live performance which is why I find so many audiophile terms very confusing. I trust verifiables as musicians should be able to play in time, play the right notes and care about what they are doing. On these things I will not yield. I am not interested in paying a lot of money to put a wedding reception band in my home. Then, I will listen for both overall tonality and spatial characteristics which are not verifiable as most rock, for example, is recorded one track at a time so the whole spatial thing is a fiction. Which version is right? Well, I have no clue. Same goes for tonality as the mere choice of microphones changes that dramatically. Classical music is no sanctuary either for imaging as Deutsche Gramophon, for example, deploys tens of microphones in their recordings throughout the orchestra. It is these characteristics that I will yield to the preference of the listener every time as even our own frequency perception varies person to person. I am no reference of truth on these. But, folks, well, will value other things and it's their money. I just cannot build nor will I display buggered systems.
@@audibleeleganceinc You are essentially using the tune method which is correct in that it uses musical criteria to evaluate the differences between components and speaker positions. I am of the philosophy that you shouldn't change more than one parameter at a time when doing the A-A-B comparison.
You are most welcome and thank you for contributing to this channel. I do appreciate the effort taken. If you have not subscribed, please do and tell other about my work. There are 165+ videos up and there are many, many more to come.
What do you say to the guy who makes perfect sense? Thank you! As simplistic as your instruction is, I didn't even consider doing such. It's perfect common sense. If you change the input source then, you are changing the "voice" of the speakers. So that now begs a different question. Wouldn't I maybe consider such when I'm going back and forth, playing vinyl and then CD's? Those two sources are different. I did plenty of testing, adjusting, physically measuring, and marking the floor while seeking the best position for m y sneakers.
You are exactly correct. I once did ISF calibration for video systems. The calibration of the projector would be based upon the source. At that time, only the Pioneer CLD-97 itself could be color calibrated. So, you could color calibrate to a source but all other sources would be off. And that's my point. The assumption that the reviewer is correct and that is perfectly flat is so flawed. I personally know several reviewers and they are, without question, loaded with prejudices.
I am not discussing the radiation pattern of the speaker at all and on that point, you are absolutely correct. However, how frequencies are presented in the room and your perceptions are.
So you represent a company but tell people not to buy their product. Good advice! Room treatment guys can seem daunting but just take it slow. You'd be surprised at how little? you might even need. Take care of the first reflection first and foremost. Stay away from too much absorption, it can be a band-aid and not a cure. Have fun with this stuff. Often times your system will tell you whats going on. We don't have to always listen so intently, trying to find differences. If you know your system well through some long term listening, it'll tell you.
No, too many people go running towards room treatment with little knowledge or test equipment and while the room may look "cool" it becomes a sonic mess. I can remember all those people running towards Sonex, which is foam. Sure it's great for telephone banks and some office situations but is not necessarily a good idea for room treatment. So, yeah, I have to throw some cold water on things to make people think about what they are about to do.
Glad you can understand what happens. The eye opener on this happened with Art Noxon when he trapped one of my moderate systems making it quite good. The next day, with the same speakers, same position, I brought in some of my best gear expecting audio joy. What I experienced was anything but. That's when I really began to think about my idea and experimented with it. I now stand by this position. It has been invaluable time and time again. Thank you for taking the time to comment and please enjoy my other 175 videos. Please tell others about my work.
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Great advice. I received emails from clients wanting to return the amp they bought from me only to change their mind after moving their speakers. Only after they reposition their speakers that they start hearing what all the reviews are glowing about.
An amp will either pair with a pair of speaker and have synergy or it won't. Moving the speakers may, and I say may give a slight improvement if they were not setup correctly to begin with, but there will be no magical moment.
@@JerryM-p2v A specific case would be, the client originally had the speakers toe in. With the new amp, he found it a bit lively and the bass became very strong. So he toe them out and moved the speakers a bit further out from the front wall. By doing so, the extra liveliness is gone but now the soundstage is wider. The bass became balanced and because he moved the speakers further out, the 3D soundstage formed. With the older amp, he could not do that because it did not have bass if he pulled them out, so he needed to keep the speakers close to the wall for bass reinforcement. He could not set them up correctly to start off with because he would have to trade bass for soundstage which he is not willing to do. So with his old amp, that was the optimal correct positioning since he favors bass and not that he set it up incorrectly to begin with. I have many other examples, but I will end up writing a book.
Thomas, exactly. It can occur with anything in front of the speakers. Most people appreciate that the speakers interact with the room acoustically but will not accept that what comes out of a speaker is controlled by what goes into it which effects how it interacts with the room. It does matter and it does effect the speaker. I see one person has written about amplifier - speaker interaction as being the cause. Well, yes, that too can certainly can be an issue. Anyone who has successfully owned Magnepans knows that. Speaker impedance, inductance, and capacitance can effect the performance of an amplifier. But you can not ignore the tonal characteristics that also occur in that interaction.
@@audibleeleganceinc Well everything matters.
@@ThomasAndStereo Exactly, and sometimes you have to change the wall you are working on from short to long. I had that happen once and even the manufacturer could not get the short wall to work once he upgraded their electronics. It was a complete Linn System. Now, as I told others, tape off the original position so you know where to go back to when the original system is restored to complete the sort of A-B-A understanding of the change in equipment. The other element of this is to try to keep the comparisons short and exact. Once you start going into long stretches, 5 minutes to and hour, your pretty much toast. If you can not tell if a live musical group is any good after 5 minutes, well, you are in trouble. My example there is the typical American Wedding reception band. You don't see people rushing to the doors to get in but more likely to get out!
I don't necessarily agree with part 1 of the video. In my books the ONLY way to evaluate a piece of gear is to only change that gear and NOTHING else (not even where the gear sits on the shelf for instance). If we are changing the speaker location we drastically alter tons of factors that make it almost impossible to really tell how changing one equipment in the chain altered the overall sound. Not to mention if that piece is changing the overall tonal balance drastically there was a huge problem with the system in the first place. When it comes to really fine-tuning the overall system I agree with this, especially when it comes to soundstaging issues. But that is vastly different from evaluation of a single change in the system (which is what it should be).
I understand your view but experience time and again, even with room treatment, leaves me to the conclusions I have stated. Now, certainly I would mark the floor with tape as to the original position so that you can restore the set-up. Otherwise, it simply becomes whether or not the foot fits in a different shoe.
Great advice.
@@audibleeleganceinc I respect your opinion but I disagree :) If you found the best place for the speakers in the room, it makes no sense to reposition them just because you are evaluating gear. I have never heard a gear that alters the sound so much that my room reflections change (it's hilarious to even write down). The only thing that could potentially change is the way you perceive space, otherwise what you hear is what you get. Bass is boomy? then the gear made your bass boomy. If you want to live with the gear then ABSOLUTELY do change the speaker position. If you are reviewing the gear, HELL NO!! How would you even reference it if you change your "reference"? That is my only point. The difference for me is if you want to make it work or you want to evaluate/review gear. Those two scenarios differ a lot.
And to add to this, I can only take reviewers seriously if they use a reference they know very well and explain what difference they hear by changing ONLY the equipment. I respect if they try to make it work with other gear or speaker positions too, but that should be an added bonus on how you can get the best out of that particular equipment. If you change 1 degree in your speaker position and THEN evaluate the baseline, you are failing objectively. That is why Harman evaluates gear with blind tests (actually they are also developing VR headsets to evaluate how we hear speaker position changes). Harman did amazing research in the past few decades on speaker-room interactions, it's worth reading about it :)
@@portwill Oh, I am sure the folks at Samsung, their owner, is very interested in these results as they try to fine tune how systems are set up, particularly home theater where all sorts of things have been going on for years. Again, I disagree with your position as it ignores the tonal changes each product brings to the table and if a given system is tuned to a particular location, how can you be certain that it is actually a reference rather than a compromise itself to how that system performs? You are making a very risky assumption that the first system is correct and ignoring the interaction of the system with the room. To me, that's why so many systems as shows sound terrible because they want to use standard positions despite the characteristics of the room. I have heard some real crap, for example, out of Wilson Audio which is a very fine product. Conversely, folks like Music Hall are consistent in results, not the best, but certainly consistent above many self-acclaimed leaders of the industry.
That makes no sense. If you don't demo the equipment in your own listening space you will have no idea what its going to sound like with the rest of your components.. The fact is, the room is the room, its either treated or not? The triangle and distance between speakers the wall and where you sit need to be set from the beginning. Cables are the most noticeable addition, but do not require speaker realignment. When i added new speakers to my systems, i took the time to set them up correctly, The last pair took 4 hours to get dialled in.I swapped out a single power amp for mono blocks, and didn't have to change the speakers at all. I have swapped out a DAC and phono stage with not having to change the speakers.
I have had amps that are dull flat and dead, VS bright and lively. Had nothing to do with the position of the speakers, that was all amp design and room related acoustics.
If the speakers are bad, besides incorrectly or correctly positioning, you can change everything (cables, amps, sources, etc) that the speakers will continue to be heard poorly. If the speakers are good or excellent probably will mitigate or alleviate amps or sources that are dull , obscure, bright or apparently dead.
@@vitusalekhine Well as i said if your speakers are not in the correct position to begin with you will have issues. Once the speakers have been placed INITIALLY, then components will not effect the location of the speakers. This Guy just wants you to buy his components blind, take them home and then you own them.
I agree with you about proper placement of the speaker as a beginning and despite some comments I don't believe the dispersion pattern changes. But, as the ear can hear as little as a 1/10 of a decible difference, and how those frequencies interact with the room, particularly resonances, I will stand by my position. Where it really get's all out of shape is when people have a change and then start using all sorts of room treatments to correct for the addition. It happens, I've seen it. It is often times why systems at shows sound like crap.
I would think leaving the speakers in their place would allow for an apples to apples comparison when changing front end gear!
Nope unless you can not move your speakers. Then, yes. Otherwise, no. Apples to Apples assumes no tonal difference between the products and no interaction with the room.
@@audibleeleganceinc To hear the affect an amp has on your speakers, there needs to be a constant or reference to judge from. The speakers are going to excite different room nodes when moved, there would be no real way to know if it is the front end gear or the speaker placement. I don't think you understand room acoustics, even in a well treated room I would not move the speakers! You make it sound like an amp can change the dispersion characteristics of a speaker and how it interacts with the room! I don't believe people are making the mistake you claim, they just understand their situation (and room) allot better than you think they do!
@@emmet7208 Well, having worked with the head of the American Acoustical Society, 50 years of experience, and work with Art Noxon of ASC doesn't account for much then. I find your aspersions interesting. So, tell me about your experiences and qualifications. I'm most curious.
At the shop, if everything is in place, you should hear the "potential" and quality of the speakers. Then there are your room problems to overcome and the position of the speakers at your listening room. But if you take the speakers home, and everything there is a mess (acoustically speaking) you won't be apple to appreciate how good de speakers can sound, and start the usual buyers procession into brands, stores, cables, etc. So is perfectly OK to hear demos at specialised stores and hear the advice of people with experience and knowledge.
Exactly. Unfortunately, many shops are so poorly set up that you really don't get to hear potentials of anything. Most are set up like the video sections in Walmarts.
Excellent advice! It costs only time to reposition your speakers. I would go a step further. Before testing something new in your system, make sure your speaker placement is optimized first.
Assuming this has not already been done.
Then make the change, addition, etc, with the speaker placement optimized, then you will be able to guage how much better, if any, your system actually sounds.
Thanks, Lou, for finding the time to produce these videos when you have family issues to tend to that have a higher priority.
John in Dayton
John, thank you your observations and an emergency run to Cleveland on Monday just got cancelled as the doctor is not available to do the procedure.
As for speakers, as I mentioned to another, I would certainly tape off on the floor the position of the speakers before moving them so that you can restore them to the original position if so desired.
Gaffers tape works well on carpet. Thanks for the reminder.
Thanks for letting me know that the procedure was canceled. I'm holding you both in my thoughts.
@@johncrockford4216 Thank you for your comment. It's what I call living on the Edge of Science.
@johncrockford4216 John, you're validating my question (above). Yes, your speaker placement is optimized. Regardless, that "optimal" placement may need to change as I'm interpreting Lou's advice.
Great point. I had an experience where I changed amps, that I could not get it to work with my speakers and room. Bass that was just fine was now, way too fat. Since it is a shared space and not a dedicated listening room placement options are limited as much as I tried, I could not get things to work. Sadly, it was an aspirational product that required a lot of resources to obtain. I wound up putting them on consignment and fortunately got a decent enough return on investment and was able to audition and obtain something that worked a lot better. Leaned the hard way how important that synergy between component, speaker, and room is.
@ridirefain6606 Me thinks that there may be limitations on speaker adjustments in response to changes in what I call "synergy"; how my sources feed my amp and then the amplified signal to my speakers. I'm quite please that what has sometimes been critiqued about a harshness with the Ortofon Blue cartridge is offset by the warmth of my amp and how it "interacts" with my speakers. Serendipity, planning, or a little bit of both?
Thank you for contributing your experiences. As much as I try to explain this to some, well, they just don't follow it. My greatest failure, personally speaking, was trying to put Magnepan speakers in a room with dormers. It was a complete disaster. Now, in this case, it clearly was a problem with dispersion vs. room shape and changes in equipment would not save the situation. Changing the speakers did. Once moved to another room, then the equipment clearly became the issue. So, these observations are not without personal experience as well as helping customers.
Own dipoles, tuning is everything 😊
Listen to room reflections, thx for sharing
Oh yes, indeed. I have owned Quad, Magnepan, and Martin Logan. So, you really understand that changes before them can really have an effect.
Thank you for contributing to my channel and please do subscribe and tell others about my work. There are over 165 videos up with so many more to come.
What if you have a system with 2 sources? I have to move my speakers depending on if im listening to a cd or lp?
Interesting thought and a logical extension of my approach. I don't do it. I don't recommend it as you begin to put the hobby between music and you. Would there be a difference? I would not be surprised. I put that sort of thing in the same class and having adjustable VTA on the fly on a tonearm. Yes, it makes a difference but you become a sound chaser. Then, logically we can get into how the recording was equalized or what microphones and the tale to minutiae goes on.
The whole point is to acknowledge that tonal changes can have a significant effect on the musicality of a system and to get a true understanding of what that change brings may require the "re-voicing" within the room when evaluating a new piece of equipment.
And, again, none of this changes the dispersion pattern of the drivers for those who keep mistakenly bringing this up.
Thanks for the poke.
Interesting take on both parts. The more I thought about them the more it makes sense.
Well, that's what this channel is all about. Making people think about what they are trying to achieve. Thank you for your comments.
If I’m testing new speakers should I rearrange my components ? 😂
Well, not for the speakers per se. However, how you have your components arranged can affect the performance of the system. For example, D/A or streaming devices can emit RF that interferes typically with preamps. At it's worst, it takes the form of either a buzz or hum (like an open ground). The same held true for CD players, DVD players and Blu-Ray players which is why they have an FCC registration on them because they do emit RF.
I know you were having some fun with me but I thought I would take the moment to take it one step further.
👍
@@WoodSmartUSA The other one to watch out for, if you have an outboard phono stage, is it's location near both digital devices and large transformers like those found in power amps. Thank you for your comment as this is actually going to become another video for folks. I love new ideas.
Lou, do use the “tune dem” or “tune method” when you voice the speakers or make changes (one at a time) to a system?
To be honest, Keith, I don't recognize those terms or don't want to misinterpret them. I listen first for rhythm. If the band or orchestra can not stay in sync with each other, it's over. I'd say about 80% of all systems I hear are washed out by that test. Then, I listen for pitch accuracy note to note much like folks can hear the wrong note played on a piano. Then, I will go for emotion which can be done by the key the music is written or more simply by listening to a vocal. These are the first three tests of evaluating any live performance which is why I find so many audiophile terms very confusing. I trust verifiables as musicians should be able to play in time, play the right notes and care about what they are doing. On these things I will not yield. I am not interested in paying a lot of money to put a wedding reception band in my home.
Then, I will listen for both overall tonality and spatial characteristics which are not verifiable as most rock, for example, is recorded one track at a time so the whole spatial thing is a fiction. Which version is right? Well, I have no clue. Same goes for tonality as the mere choice of microphones changes that dramatically. Classical music is no sanctuary either for imaging as Deutsche Gramophon, for example, deploys tens of microphones in their recordings throughout the orchestra. It is these characteristics that I will yield to the preference of the listener every time as even our own frequency perception varies person to person. I am no reference of truth on these.
But, folks, well, will value other things and it's their money. I just cannot build nor will I display buggered systems.
@@audibleeleganceinc You are essentially using the tune method which is correct in that it uses musical criteria to evaluate the differences between components and speaker positions. I am of the philosophy that you shouldn't change more than one parameter at a time when doing the A-A-B comparison.
@@keithkohley9855 You are absolutely correct about one at a time. Amen
Very good advice never thought of that thank you
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What do you say to the guy who makes perfect sense? Thank you! As simplistic as your instruction is, I didn't even consider doing such. It's perfect common sense. If you change the input source then, you are changing the "voice" of the speakers. So that now begs a different question. Wouldn't I maybe consider such when I'm going back and forth, playing vinyl and then CD's? Those two sources are different. I did plenty of testing, adjusting, physically measuring, and marking the floor while seeking the best position for m y sneakers.
You are exactly correct. I once did ISF calibration for video systems. The calibration of the projector would be based upon the source. At that time, only the Pioneer CLD-97 itself could be color calibrated. So, you could color calibrate to a source but all other sources would be off. And that's my point. The assumption that the reviewer is correct and that is perfectly flat is so flawed. I personally know several reviewers and they are, without question, loaded with prejudices.
FOS - speaker positioning is a spatial problem, not frequency response. Equipment cannot change radiation pattern of speakers.
I am not discussing the radiation pattern of the speaker at all and on that point, you are absolutely correct. However, how frequencies are presented in the room and your perceptions are.
@@audibleeleganceinc Frequency response is trivial. Corrected with EQ.
@@geickmei Oh great, digital controls or physical controls in the signal path. Ah, no.
@@audibleeleganceinc Everything is in the signal path.
So you represent a company but tell people not to buy their product. Good advice! Room treatment guys can seem daunting but just take it slow. You'd be surprised at how little? you might even need. Take care of the first reflection first and foremost. Stay away from too much absorption, it can be a band-aid and not a cure. Have fun with this stuff. Often times your system will tell you whats going on. We don't have to always listen so intently, trying to find differences. If you know your system well through some long term listening, it'll tell you.
No, too many people go running towards room treatment with little knowledge or test equipment and while the room may look "cool" it becomes a sonic mess. I can remember all those people running towards Sonex, which is foam. Sure it's great for telephone banks and some office situations but is not necessarily a good idea for room treatment. So, yeah, I have to throw some cold water on things to make people think about what they are about to do.
Not even wrong !
Glad you can understand what happens. The eye opener on this happened with Art Noxon when he trapped one of my moderate systems making it quite good. The next day, with the same speakers, same position, I brought in some of my best gear expecting audio joy. What I experienced was anything but. That's when I really began to think about my idea and experimented with it. I now stand by this position. It has been invaluable time and time again.
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