@outofspecreviews You seem extremely knowledgeable in batteries derogation. Can you make a video on best practices for daily charging? I have a 2024 Tesla model three performance I don’t necessarily need it to 80% but I like the performance that comes with it at 80%. is it OK that I charge it to 80% every single day or should I be charging it lower like 65% or 70%
@@johnphillips7894 Every singular data point could be considered anecdotal evidence, but when you can combine a bunch of single anecdotal data points you can start to see a trend that actually matters. So yeah, if everyone wanted to share their "anecdotal evidence" it would go a long way to seeing what these cars are still doing.
I appreciate that you’re digging into what that battery health number actually means. Hopefully one day this is a number that is required to be reported for used EV sales.
@@KyleConner absolutely. Not sure if it’s already in the works, but it would be interesting to see what kind of range/efficiency gains could be had on this car if you swapped in the new Photon wheels from the new Long Range RWD.
for my understanding is that anytime you buy a used tesla the battery health information is something you can acquire very very very very very easily, compared to other ev's, you just need to learn how to use "service" mode and you'll be good to go, also here in my city if you go shopping used teslas i believe almost if not all used car dealerships did in fact display the actual battery health at 100%
The problem is age alone degrades the battery. That's just the nature of it. The air is going to be a fortune to fix. When your compressor fails, it sends tiny fragments of metal all through the system. Every part will need replacement. 6 year old upper and lower control arms isn't a great sign either.
It was actually 62.91 kWh if you multiply 233 mi * 0.270Wh/mi. The high degradation is most probably due to a lot of acceleration, fast charging, high state of charge, and high temperatures. I don't think the owner drove gently with it, see all the suspension issues. Also the 4880 kWh regen in ScanMyTesla is a hint to fast driving style. It had almost the same regen like DC charging.
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It could be 63.018 as 0.270 * 233.4 (233.4 will be still presented as 233). Even 233.44 same with consumption. Also, i am pretty sure tesla have some error in distance reporting at least @BjornNyland always do some magic correction. On other hand its take about ~20kw power so about 0.3C with 1C the capacity would be less.
I would strongly recommend either making sure the damaged compressor cannot run, or replacing it ASAP. If the compressor is sending metal debris into the AC system you need to replace a lot more components and flush others you cannot get to (ones in the dash). Makes the replacement a lot more expensive.
Before I traded my 2018 LR RWD a few months ago it was at 72kWh showing 97% capacity, 3% degredation with 65k km. Rarely charged above 75 percent and rested mostly between 50 and 60%. Northern colder climate. I've now got the LG battery on the 2024 LR AWD. Going to keep the same charging patterns and see how it goes.
As someone already pointed out, 5,000 kWh of DC is quite a lot. Assuming a 30 kWh juice-up per stop or just over 160 DC charging stops to put some perspective onto it. That's quite a bit of heat buildup under the intense desert sun. Sure, it's no Nissan Leaf, but I'd imagine that AC compressor was working overtime during and after those DC stops.
My 2016 s has 10 percent degradation and just went out of warranty. 55k miles so far . But it’s been and still is the best car I have owned so far . Sure it was a very large bill but worth it so far and the free supercharger access keeps giving back ! This car … not a chance I would have picked up . Too beat up for me but I’m glad he loves it ! My wife’s 17 x had 14 percent degradation and over 100k miles and she wants another one when this one calls quit . She loves her Tesla !
Hi Kyle, remember miles is not necessarily related to energy cycles of the battery pack. In AZ, you could be running the AC all the time remotely, and he could have been doing 0-60 runs all the time. If he were doing racing runs, the pack could be depleted in 50 miles. A better measurement is how many megawatts the battery has put out or consumed, you could then choose the average whr / mile and calculate the true "mileage" the pack has on it. Also, he's getting quite poor whr/mi - perhaps ensure the tires are low rolling resistance, and that bushing issue could be causing drag because misalignment
Just got a 2019 3 LR from Tesla. 16% degradation on the battery. Tesla replaced the upper control arms before delivery. Car is otherwise great for $22k before tax credit.
Excellent presentation. Thank you. We are going to see more and more of this as these cars get some years on them and since sales have been high, there will be a much larger sample size in those aging years. Nice to see some "reality" checks on real world examples. Batteries are not going to last forever and the replacement cost is a honest discussion we need to have on these cars as they age and get resold a few times. Like it not, batteries are a maintenance item, they degrade over time even when not driven and will need to be replaced on all of them at some point else the cars will simply be scrapped.
My 2023 Model 3 rear wheel drive with the LFP is at 25,428 miles and displays 251 miles at 100% (it’s daily charge limit). That’s 7.7% of the original projected range lost. I charge to 100% once a week (Tesla recommendation), and replenish roughly 10% of my daily consumption daily. Mostly use the 30-40% to 70% pack segment. Have free 7kW AC charging near home, and that’s 94% of my total energy in the last 1 year. 2% of the total 3.9 mWh energy is through superchargers, in the same period.
LFPs have higher degradation rates when you charge them from 30 to 70 or 40 to 80,LFPs work perfectly when you discharge them to 10% and re charge them all the way to 100%,you just hurt your pack baddly.
Thanks for posting that. I'm always looking to compare. Our 2023 M3 RWD w/ lfp is at 20,963 miles and shows 264 miles of range for a loss of a little over 3%. Up until last week, I've been charging it to 100% almost every day. I'm a range anxiety kinda guy and it's taken me awhile to adjust to this. I got the Tessi app and am trying to keep the battery at a lower state of charge and charge once a week to 100%. This week, I've also set the charge limit to 90%. We mostly charge at home and have used 5.9mWh in a year. We almost never supercharge, but my wife did take the kids on a 4000 mile road trip - during that time she consumed 1.6 mWh in 1 month on superchargers.
@ That’s interesting as I had the same number, 264 miles, at the beginning of summer at around roughly 21k odometer. And I too used to keep it at high state (multiple full charges/week & generally over 80%) until recently, following Kyle’s Always-Be-Charging principle. The drain was excessive this summer, which was particularly severe this year, here in the Bay Area. Heat & high state of charge could be the factors to look out for.
Hi Tijmen, not only have the AC compressor replaced but I would clean the condenser fins on the front and put a screen guard to keep it clean. Debris is often the cause of AC issues and poor AC in hot climate could have also resulted in battery degradation as the pack may not have been kept within normal temps during charging and heavy usage!
@@busog97641 Amazon has a number of them 2PCS Front Grill Mesh for Tesla Model Y, Air Inlet Vent Grille Cover, Mesh Bright Black Bumper Vent Grille Replacement for Tesla Model Y 2020 to 2023
Living in AZ and being a stats nerd I will tell you that Tesla does NOT do anything related to battery cooling during the summer months! I have had 2 model Ys and I rarely see pack temps below 100f even over night. Then during the day 110-115 pack temps can be very normal. If you supercharge during the day in AZ, 140f then they just slowly go down to 120 after supercharging. If you supercharge here it’s brutal day after day. I’m lucky to also have a garage with AC so I think some have it even worse.
@@fubolibs4218the only time I can tell they cool the battery is after supercharging to get the battery from 140f back down to around 120f. Also, using track mode on my performance model will also cool the battery as well but that is a choice I have to make, not Tesla.
@@fubolibs4218 Now, I should note that the car itself may be running some cooling through the loop to do some cooling. But the pack temps them self are all high all the time in the dead heat of summer for both of my MYPs I have had (late 2021/Late 2023). Tesla just doesn't do any meaningful cooling IMO. I don't get why.
So, my model 3 performance has 250 miles of range after 250k miles. Original battery. Almost 0 maintenance. 100% on highway going 80mph is about 200 miles to empty
Not bad given it’s a 2018. Can’t wait to see the performance upgrades and it hitting the tracks. It’s gotta be better than my leaf’s degradation which was at 60% capacity.
Actually 60% health is a level that's indicating the battery may need to be replaced soon, as the degradation rate of the lithium battery is pretty much linear until it reaches 65-60% health but after that the degradation rate is getting more and more intense Keep checking the battery health regularly if you're still using it everyday
Watching this on my lunchbreak in the middle of rebuilding a Kia Niro gearbox, haha. A little note on another important factor for battery health (which you can access with ScanMyTesla) is the CAC differential of the individual bricks within the battery. CAC stands for Calculated Amp-hour Capacity, and is essentially a calculation that the BMS makes for the capacity of each "brick" within the battery. Given that this car appears to have a pretty low voltage imbalance, the CAC differential is probably pretty low (though at around halfway SoC, the voltage imbalance is usually at it's lowest, so not the best indicator). Once a pack reaches a high enough threshold for CAC differential, it can reach a point where the BMS can no longer effectively keep the cells balanced, which usually leads to an increasing SoC/voltage imbalance. If the imbalance reaches a big enough discrepancy, the BMS will throw an alert and limit the maximum charge level of the battery (usually a target of 3.8v max for the highest brick). For legacy Model S/X, this alert is a BMS_u018, and for Model 3/Y the alert is BMS_a066. In general, I would say the point at which CAC differential starts to become "concerning" would be if the discrepancy between the highest and lowest bricks starts to exceed ~4%. It will probably remain functional in the shorter term, but could indicate that the lowest brick is likely on a "downhill slide" (especially if it's just one brick that is significantly lower). There can be external factors that affect this, such as an issue with the BMS, but more likely indicates one or more cells that have become "parasitic" and are slowly draining energy from the cells around them.
Thanks. It seems to me that the most common mode of failure for a battery is for a single cell or brick to lose capacity. In a 1P battery, the cell with marginally weakest performance early in battery life is the one which will fail. In a multiple P battery, a single 'brick' will fail prematurely. Repair costs can be reduced significantly if a replacement of the faulty cell or brick with another used one with similar capacity to the other good ones in the battery can be carried out.
@@RWBHere Sort of depends on the car... Single cell failures are probably one of the most common "true" killers of these packs (which is also why that CAC differential is important, if there are one or more underperforming cells in a brick, it will often be reflected in that data). At least on legacy Model S/X I would actually say that moisture intrusion is at least equally as common of a "pack killer", though those issues are usually repairable. Particularly on the oldest packs, moisture intrusion causes damage to the BMS electronics (usually corroded capacitors on the BMBs). Once you get to later packs, that issue was fixed, but what often happens is the development of an isolation fault, which can typically be remedied by taking the pack apart, drying it out, and then putting it back together with new umbrella valves, etc. Obviously with moisture intrusion, particularly in the case of isolation faults, timeliness in getting it pulled apart and dried out is critical to avoid corrosion and other permanent damage to the cells. Unfortunately, in the case of cell failures, module replacements just are not generally a viable repair method for Teslas... The BMS is just too sensitive to even the smallest differences in capacity, and they have very limited balancing capabilities. Even internally, Tesla stopped doing module replacements on Reman packs, as they often didn't last more than 2 years, even with a nearly unlimited supply of modules to pick and choose from for capacity matching. For a small shop with limited modules to choose from, it's even more "un-viable" to swap out modules. Now for some other cars, module swapping is a lot more possible, due to either less sensitive BMS tuning, or better balancing capability (or both).
My June 2023 Tesla model 3 has 100,000 miles on it. 4% degradation so far. LFP. People don't want to believe me, but it's been tested two different ways and they both come up the same.
Yep, same here. I have a 2022 Model 3 RWD (LFP) with almost 107k miles, and I currently have about 4.5% degradation. People don’t realize how resilient the LFP packs are.
I'd have to agree that previous charging and storage was probably to blame. I tend to keep my Mid-Range 2018 at 70-75% and it still turning at 56.7kwh usable / 239 miles at 100% - current milage 107k miles. Nominal new was 65.1kwh and had 63sh kwh usable with a 2.1kwh buffer. I also live in the PNW were we see extreme heat for 3 months and cooler weather the remaining. My new 2024 Model Y reported 83sh kwh new nominal and 2.4kwh buffer and after 14,000 miles still giving 80sh full so very little so far. Daily charge on this is 75% like my mid-range. Only ever 100% charged this for road trips and used it within the 24 hours of leaving to the trip, so less than 12 hours sitting at max 100%. Have to see where this goes as the car ages. I took the mid-range in used with 7700 miles, so it sat at airport at unknown state of charge for that first bit, but overall degradation has been minimal on it.
This car was beat up its entire life. Look at that steering wheel. Good lord. My 2021 (delivered late 2020) LRAWD has 55k miles and is practically indistinguishable from new. However, I am also seeing around 10% degradation which is unfortunate. Car is supercharged a lot and would often go to 90% back when Tesla said that was ok to do. North Carolina mild weather. Love the car, but it sucks that Tesla completely dismisses degradation whatsoever when asked about it. See the new model 3 review with jay Leno. When asked, the engineers said the most you would see was 3-4 percent over a decade. Unfortunate that they are lying through their teeth.
I have a 2018 model 3 long range at 109k mile and I have almost 20% degradation. I've been very gentle with it but the degradation ramp up in the last few years. Sadly I don't think I'll exceed 30% degradation before I hit 120k miles
@ very little super charging except summer beach trips and otherwise kept it under 85% charge the first few years and under 80% charge on Tesla’s new recommendations.
I think some of the 2018 batteries were not great. 2018 LR with 56k miles and ScanMyTesla reports nominal full pack at 65.9, so 12%. Charged to 90% as recommended for the first few years.
@@DonColeman yep. I think we had the 1st or 2nd batch of model 3s and Tesla recommended charging to 90%....I charged to 85% but I saw a dramatic rise in degradation this year.
I have a 2020 Model 3 SR+ . Rated range was about 400km and I'm at 360km right now after almost 4.5 years of ownership. I drove in frigid temperatures (Montreal, Toronto, Niagara region) a lot and the first 18 months, the charging was all Tesla SC. After those 18 months, its all slow home charging at home.
Having worked with Li-ion batteries on and off for 25 years the simplest degradation formula is SoC x Temp x Time. DC charging causes high temperature and keeps the battery voltage at maximum (they follow a CC-CV regime) which is the same or even worse than 100% as the polarization is high.... If all factors are high they wear down. But if you keep time at 100% SoC close to zero (and SoC under 80%) you are fine. In the winter time it is less critical. Using this formula and living in Scandinavia I kept my 24 kWh Nissan Leaf to all 12 bars of SoH (last time I used the Spy it was 91% SoH but you can't trust it) when I sold it after 6 years and 80.000 km. My ID.3 claimed 89% after 145.000 km on Aviloo. However my Model 3 (2019 Freemont awd version) I haven't tested but I would expect ~90% at 101.000 km now All cars have only been DC charged a limited number of times except for the model Y that has taken some holiday driving). I am actually under-impressed by Tesla. There shouldn't be any problem in getting cells to cycle 1000 cycles to 90% nowadays. That would equal more than 300.000 kilometers to >90% SoH with that size of battery. My wife drives a LFP model Y with just under 40.000 km it seems not to have experienced any wear (I don't charge it to 100% more than once a week or less).
Cool to see this content! My 2018 3P has 74K miles, Colorado car, about 8k miles in Minnesota now, 65 kWh. Not sure on charging history, that 8k is about 25% supercharging
I'm with the others that have pointed to the beat up suspension and high regen factor, indicating the car was rode hard and put away wet for those 40k miles. Because at that level of capacity loss, he'd reach warranty replacement by 75k miles, which is simply crazy. Another anecdote, is that I have a Polestar 2 with 39k miles, and virtually all AC charging, but pretty much plugged in every evening and charged to 90%. My last battery state of health check had the battery at just under 96%. So a loss of around 1% for every 10k miles of usage. That's in line with what others have seen as well. The caveats there are, there's the assumption that a brand new, zero mile, battery starts at 100% exactly, which it may not, and then of course use cases, charging type/frequency, and ambient temps are all additional factors.
Yep - that is all part of buying a used car, especially cheaper one, that has been through a few different owners. That is why we need to start having honest conversations on the process and cost of battery replacements. Not everybody can afford new cars and simply scrapping old ones because the battery has aged out.
@markmonroe7330 I don't fully agree with your conclusion. I do think we need to seriously talk about having regulations in place that require reporting the battery state of health as part of a non-private, person to person, sale. That way people/the market can properly value cars that have been beat on, as was the case with this one. However, just because the degradation was so bad on this one early in its life, doesn't mean that the degradation continues at that same rate under a new owner, and thus requiring a battery replacement at the accelerated time table. So, for someone that just needs cheap(er) transportation, doesn't drive much, and plans to L1 or L2 charge all the time, then the car could be perfectly fine for them for 10, 20, 30 years.
Really enjoy this type of content. There needs to be more videos about battery degradation. I see private sellers all the time stating that their cars batteries have been “babied” and have low degradation because they’ve only ever charged to 80%. Actually no, in many cases it has shown that charging to 100% isn’t much different than charging to 80% in terms of degradation. If you care about degradation, setting your charge limit to 50%-55% can cut your degradation in half in comparison to those that charge to 80%. Also the whole “I can charge my LFP pack to 100% all day everyday and not worry about degradation” is a fallacy. The 100% recommendation for LFP packs has to do with pack voltage and BMS calibration. Set your LFP charge limit to 70%, with the occasional 100% charge for the BMS, if you care about degradation.
@@cutehumornot very hard if you have home charging. I don’t even think about it. Also there is nothing you HAVE to do. Let me ask you this, do you optimize everything with your ICE to ensure it lasts longer? Probably not.
I have a model x 90 D d that I purchased on December 31st, 2016. I live in Southern California and you are more than welcome to come and test the battery health test in any way you like. Based on scan my Tesla, I think I have only 73 kW hour left
2018 Model 3 Performance, 75,000 miles (120,000km). At 100% SOC, shows 260 miles (420km). Real world mileage has been between 181mile-238mile (290km-380km) the handful of times driving 100% to under 3% (sport mode with roof rack) Recent health test 83%
I have a 2021 Dual Motor 3 with 34,000 Miles. Im sitting at 13% Battery Degredation since new. Vehicle charges to 313 miles indicated, but realistically I've only ever seen 250miles out of it. I am running Zero-G wheel's with stock size PS4S tires. But I'm somehow getting lower Wh/MI now then I was when the vehicle was new with the 19" Sport V2 wheels and stock continental tire.
We need this test on used ID.4, Ioniq 5, BMW i4, and any other high volume EVs coming off lease to see if a second hand EV makes any sense to purchase.
@@foam27 Yes, but even Teslas have thermal issues. Drive one during peak Texas heat in the Summer on the highway and it burns so much energy just trying to stay cool. I did this last Summer and it was a pretty bad experience, had to wait until dark to have the range to make it to my next charging stop.
That seems like a lot to me. I currently have a Kia EV6. Technically, this is my second one since someone hit the first one. With my first one being the Wind rear-wheel drive, I put 60,000 miles on that car, and with my scan tool plugged in, I only had a 0.5% degradation. I use exclusively the fast chargers because I primarily use the car to do Uber. When I've used the fast charger, I charge my car up to 100%, and I only have a little bit of degradation. Versus this car that's mostly been AC charged, I get that it's been an Arizona car, but that still seems like a lot of battery loss in the time that it's been on the road.
Every battery degrades, it is physics. KIA is taking different strategy to battery capacity management. It provides only limited usable capacity to customer and leaves a hidden buffer which is then used to compensate for capacity lost via degradation. Kia does not have any special technology which avoids battery degradation, you just can use less capacity from beginning.
35:00 A piece on Tesla's battery and drivetrain warranties would be great. Not only covering the new cars, but the older versions like this that are now becoming very affordable.
The reason we might be concerned about battery degradation is the impact on range. For me, the best way to test is to measure the available range on a known route/speed/temperature.
This matches my experience. I had a 2019 SR+ with 16% degradation at 65k miles. One year later closer to 79k Tesla actually refused to provide me an update on my degradation. At that point the car was even worse and could not complete my daily 100 miles commmute with more than 20% left. It was charged at home everyday to 80% and I’m in the mid Atlantic so mild weather.
It’s great that Tijmen wants to DIY the AC compressor but it’s very possible that the evaporator and condenser coil need replacement, as well as the lines. If the compressor grenaded itself, there is metal throughout the whole system now. It’s typical for Tesla to have to do this when a compressor fails. Still possible if you’re an advanced DIY’er, but beware it may not be as simple as just replacing the compressor and calling it a day.
Auto journo Rory in Great Britain has interviewed a ModS Taxi owner that has 400,000 of mostly SCharged miles , he still had 100 miles of range when he changed thd battery pack . For comparison any high perf BMW or Mercedes ICE replacement will on average cost ofer $20,000 from a that companies dealer ,and that is just for the ENGINE😊
I'm the only one in America that prefers chrome. Love the way the the chrome looks on his 3. I hate all the black all my Y especially the wheel covers.
My June 2023 Tesla model 3 has 100,000 miles on it. 4% degradation so far. LFP. People don't want to believe me, but it's been tested two different ways and they both come up the same.
@@ericgregori It had less than 40k miles in 6 years, no way that's an uber or rental. Just as Kyle said, hot Arizona weather plus high % storage will do this
My car was delivered new on a Friday with non functional a/c. Tesla said to bring it back the next week for repair. The car operated fine with no error messages.
That seems like a lot of DC charging. That's 1/3 of the battery usage. I'm not sure I'd call that "primarily A/C charged". ================== For comparison here's my gently used low mileage 2018: 05/25/24 2018 Tesla Model 3, AWD, 20,201 Miles Battery health: 91% Charged to 296 miles after health test --------------------- Daily charged to 60-65%. Supercharged only on rare road trips.
I tried 60% charging on my MYP. It was a mistake. Tho I avg 390-405 why on the highway at 70-80 mph. Tesla said that was normal ..... I was expecting 320 or less.
@@David_L3 because the car limits power at 55-60% SOC so you don't have the passing power you expect on the highway. Was annoying. To be more direct to the issue, I had to visit a supercharger every two days because of the consumption being so high. I couldn't replenish the usage at at my house overnight. To give you an idea how bad it was in real world terms. I was taking a trip to Cali, I top charge at a supercharger (so sit there for 2 hours in Goodyear Arizona). And I would pull into quartzsite at 1% on a brand new pack .... so as degradation happens that trip is not possible and there is not another supercharger. That's 112 miles ....... EPA said 303. I tried PHX to Tuscon, It's 200 miles round trip The vehicle should easily be able to do that. NOPE SC at Eloy AZ on the way there and then AGAIN on the way back .... Tesla service center saw the car five times they insisted that everything was normal and that's just "what they do in AZ" I was SHOOK. ANYWAY I GUESS YOU ASKED WHY 60% WAS AN ISSUE IT WAS AN ISSUE BECAUSE IT SIMPLY WAS NOT ENOUGH CHARGE AND I HAD TO RESCHEDULE MY LIFE AND BE LIKE OH NO I CAN'T TAKE THE CAR TO GO GET FOOD THIS EVENING CUZ I NEED TO MAKE SURE I GET AS MUCH CHARGE AS POSSIBLE SO I'M NOT SPENDING TOO MUCH AT THE SUPERCHARGER.
@@duramaxadventures5832 oh I see. That makes sense. You certainly need to put in what you need for a daily drive. That's a lot of driving. If you don't have the range for your daily drive the EV might not be for you.
We’ve got two 2018 Model 3 LR RWD cars, with 95k and 129k miles respectively. So seems like you actually have 4 data points you could compare: Tesla’s GOM miles at 100%, the driving test kWh discharged, the Service Mode percentage result and finally Scan My Tesla reported capacity. I’d argue that the GOM miles at 100% must be linked to the reported capacity and therefore can be used as the quickest way to assess a car someone wants to buy. I would even argue that because the GOM is linear for kWh that if you do a ratio of miles to SOC that if you ask the dealer selling a car to quickly switch between miles and soc and tell me both numbers that you can really quickly assess a car and sort the highly degraded packs from the well treated examples.
To Kyle - I own a 21 model 3 salvage car with 34k miles and I live in a mild climate. My car sat in an auction yard for 9 months and went to 0% soc , I would guess it sat like that for a long time before I revived it. Would be interesting to compare my situation - do you think my battery health would be impacted by that ? Btw Thanks for making all these great videos
Great test! I would love to see how this compares to a 2020 Model 3 LR. It would be great if the car would record more statistics on their usage, I think it would really help when going for sale. Again, I really enjoy watching these. Please think about getting high visibility vests for the end of these tests to stay safe.
16% loss seems excessive for 40K miles. But as you say, hot AZ weather can contribute to that, and maybe it was charged to 100% many times and left sitting.
The ideal SOC is NOT as low as possible. For NMC batteries, it is about 50-60%. Do not mislead your viewers! Battery wear works differently at low SOC, but it is generally more harmful than high SOC, though 20% should still be reasonably safe. Do you want references?
It only has one compressor. But that wont inpact this test, it might just explain the degradation if it's broken for a long time. But I doubt someone would drive a car without AC in Arizona :D
I have a 2018 m3 dual motor. 95% was ac charged. My compressor went bad too but you have no idea until you check the service menu. I live in Los Angeles so heat is not too bad. My degradation is probably 84% too. I think it was the compressor not working and likely allowing battery temps to get too high.
26:30 "There he goes, makin' a U-turn. As we get right back up to speed, we're gonna duck in behind him." If you were a true friend, you'd let him draft you.
Yes, way too many red flags. I would not buy a car from a hot weather state like Arizona and the unrepaired damage indicates an abusive/careless owner.
Depends on who you are. If you have minimal mechanical skill, like doing a brake job is no big deal, then you know the mechanical side with this car isn't a big deal. Normal wear and tear sort of stuff.
@@enoughofthiswho is "these guys"? Kyle? Who explicitly said multiple times that he wouldn't get this car and advised against it in the original video? Or the sometimes guest who did it anyway and has little if any financial stake in the channel?
Scan my Tesla shows 63kwh on my 2018 model 3 with 168,000 miles. With Tijmen' car, it showed 64kwh. Im curious if the Scan my Tesla is consistently that close to actual capacity.
I had a 2018 M3P, 53k miles, SoCal, AC Charged 98%, Tesla ran it remotely after several service visits, 11% degradation after 2 years. These performance models DO degrade faster, may be the way the software/motors is running?
Tijmen hopefully you get everything lined out with the car Kyle didn't seem to like the car on video all that much but like you said in person he wanted you to buy it but in the end im sure itll all work out
I waited for this video so long that I forgot and just bought Tesla Model Y. Still waiting for a video why Mckayla got rid of ID.4 and what did she replace it with?
Very interesting. I would be interested in what non Tesla cars show as well. I’m surprised this is so bad but it’s probably an outlier. I have thought about doing a similar test on my Kia when I have time.
That's pretty high loss for those miles. I checked our Ioniq 5 just past 60k miles and it said like 72,600 WH remaining at 100% charge, 74,000 was new new so it's down 1.9% and the car still reports 100% SOH. But we live outside Seattle so no extreme temperatures and it's AC charged 95% of the time then since we have home charging I charge it often rather than letting it get down to 20% or less.
I have many friends (Chicago) with Telsas well under 90% capacity left. Interestingly, my AC charged 2019 Leaf Plus is doing worse (10.3% loss) with 40K miles, than my DC charged 2019 Leaf (9% loss).
Hmm, I wonder if the test would have been any different had you charged up to 100% with a level 2 charger as opposed to super charging. I've typically held the believe that slow in slow out (relatively).
I would think that the cars cooling systems would keep the battery at a safe temp when resting if the car is plugged in.. Maybe the AC compressor has been faulted for a long time, or underperforming? BTW get that fixed ASAP. If the compressor grenades.. it will throw metal trash all thru the system, much mor expensive. So fix it or disable it until you do. My Bolt EV will have the AC going over 3KW when parked in summer heat and plugged in.. I think It targets 90F when on plugged in and 100F when not. Looking forward to future videos on the car..
Comparison. I have a 2018 low VIN LR RWD M3. Original owner with 90k miles. Texas car. Running ScanMyT3sla results in 64.0 capacity. Virtually identical. No squeaks or AC noise though.
If the battery charged to 100% has a buffer with residual miles when the vehicle charge level is at 0, are we really charging to 100% or to some other lesser percentage?
7:10 false. You cannot just replace the compressor. I mean, you can, but it will need replacement shortly after. You need to replace all of the parts. The evaporator, the condenser, the expansion valve, the dryer and probably the lines too. When a compressor fails, it sends the pieces throughout the system. Those pieces are tiny. You cannot get them all out. You have to replace the whole system. Unless it an exterior failure, like the drivebelt bearing (which I would imagine a Tesla doesn't have) or something.
For those thinking this is the only way to test this, please DON'T DO THIS. It can damage the battery. Google Tesla service mode. There is a way to do this in there, right in your garage/carport, connected to a Level 2 charger.
If you missed Tijmen's original delivery video, it's linked here! ruclips.net/video/xPw_dhrSpW8/видео.html
@outofspecreviews You seem extremely knowledgeable in batteries derogation. Can you make a video on best practices for daily charging? I have a 2024 Tesla model three performance I don’t necessarily need it to 80% but I like the performance that comes with it at 80%. is it OK that I charge it to 80% every single day or should I be charging it lower like 65% or 70%
Law Arrhenius..the answer...
@@MountainDizzal *degradation. Maybe autocorrect did that to you? Derogation is an exemption from a rule or law, or a relaxation of a law.
@@RWBHere you’re a dork
A relevant data point to add. My 2018 3 performance has 215,000 miles. All supercharged. Socal weather. 61kwh.
Same for me
anecdotal evidence. not very strong form of scientific evidence.
dyhppyx, make a youtube video and prove it.
@@cutehumor he wont. he is lying
@@johnphillips7894 Every singular data point could be considered anecdotal evidence, but when you can combine a bunch of single anecdotal data points you can start to see a trend that actually matters. So yeah, if everyone wanted to share their "anecdotal evidence" it would go a long way to seeing what these cars are still doing.
I appreciate that you’re digging into what that battery health number actually means. Hopefully one day this is a number that is required to be reported for used EV sales.
As an industry, need to quantify what battery health means and how to display that to customers
@@KyleConner absolutely. Not sure if it’s already in the works, but it would be interesting to see what kind of range/efficiency gains could be had on this car if you swapped in the new Photon wheels from the new Long Range RWD.
for my understanding is that anytime you buy a used tesla the battery health information is something you can acquire very very very very very easily, compared to other ev's, you just need to learn how to use "service" mode and you'll be good to go, also here in my city if you go shopping used teslas i believe almost if not all used car dealerships did in fact display the actual battery health at 100%
Well said
The problem is age alone degrades the battery. That's just the nature of it. The air is going to be a fortune to fix.
When your compressor fails, it sends tiny fragments of metal all through the system. Every part will need replacement. 6 year old upper and lower control arms isn't a great sign either.
It was actually 62.91 kWh if you multiply 233 mi * 0.270Wh/mi.
The high degradation is most probably due to a lot of acceleration, fast charging, high state of charge, and high temperatures. I don't think the owner drove gently with it, see all the suspension issues. Also the 4880 kWh regen in ScanMyTesla is a hint to fast driving style. It had almost the same regen like DC charging.
It could be 63.018 as 0.270 * 233.4 (233.4 will be still presented as 233). Even 233.44 same with consumption. Also, i am pretty sure tesla have some error in distance reporting at least @BjornNyland always do some magic correction. On other hand its take about ~20kw power so about 0.3C with 1C the capacity would be less.
Yeah, the og owner drove like an ass. I did some math, lifetime avg wh/mi is like 426wh/mi. Insane. Most people get 175-310 on the high end.
Would love to see this channel get a battery replacement in it and document as much as you can about the process and costs involved.
I would strongly recommend either making sure the damaged compressor cannot run, or replacing it ASAP. If the compressor is sending metal debris into the AC system you need to replace a lot more components and flush others you cannot get to (ones in the dash). Makes the replacement a lot more expensive.
Before I traded my 2018 LR RWD a few months ago it was at 72kWh showing 97% capacity, 3% degredation with 65k km. Rarely charged above 75 percent and rested mostly between 50 and 60%. Northern colder climate. I've now got the LG battery on the 2024 LR AWD. Going to keep the same charging patterns and see how it goes.
As someone already pointed out, 5,000 kWh of DC is quite a lot. Assuming a 30 kWh juice-up per stop or just over 160 DC charging stops to put some perspective onto it. That's quite a bit of heat buildup under the intense desert sun. Sure, it's no Nissan Leaf, but I'd imagine that AC compressor was working overtime during and after those DC stops.
That is just part of owning a car. Some folks are going to live in a dorm, apartment rental house in TX or Arizona and will do more DC charging.
I got a used higher mileage it was at 12 percent now it’s at 16 percent still happy with my purchase best car I’ve ever owned
My 2016 s has 10 percent degradation and just went out of warranty. 55k miles so far . But it’s been and still is the best car I have owned so far . Sure it was a very large bill but worth it so far and the free supercharger access keeps giving back !
This car … not a chance I would have picked up . Too beat up for me but I’m glad he loves it ! My wife’s 17 x had 14 percent degradation and over 100k miles and she wants another one when this one calls quit . She loves her Tesla !
Hi Kyle, remember miles is not necessarily related to energy cycles of the battery pack. In AZ, you could be running the AC all the time remotely, and he could have been doing 0-60 runs all the time. If he were doing racing runs, the pack could be depleted in 50 miles.
A better measurement is how many megawatts the battery has put out or consumed, you could then choose the average whr / mile and calculate the true "mileage" the pack has on it.
Also, he's getting quite poor whr/mi - perhaps ensure the tires are low rolling resistance, and that bushing issue could be causing drag because misalignment
Just got a 2019 3 LR from Tesla. 16% degradation on the battery. Tesla replaced the upper control arms before delivery. Car is otherwise great for $22k before tax credit.
With 85k miles
Excellent presentation. Thank you. We are going to see more and more of this as these cars get some years on them and since sales have been high, there will be a much larger sample size in those aging years. Nice to see some "reality" checks on real world examples. Batteries are not going to last forever and the replacement cost is a honest discussion we need to have on these cars as they age and get resold a few times. Like it not, batteries are a maintenance item, they degrade over time even when not driven and will need to be replaced on all of them at some point else the cars will simply be scrapped.
My 2023 Model 3 rear wheel drive with the LFP is at 25,428 miles and displays 251 miles at 100% (it’s daily charge limit). That’s 7.7% of the original projected range lost. I charge to 100% once a week (Tesla recommendation), and replenish roughly 10% of my daily consumption daily. Mostly use the 30-40% to 70% pack segment. Have free 7kW AC charging near home, and that’s 94% of my total energy in the last 1 year. 2% of the total 3.9 mWh energy is through superchargers, in the same period.
LFPs have higher degradation rates when you charge them from 30 to 70 or 40 to 80,LFPs work perfectly when you discharge them to 10% and re charge them all the way to 100%,you just hurt your pack baddly.
@@davidfujkk8018 Literally none of this is true. LFP just degrades less from top-charging than NMC does.
Thanks for posting that. I'm always looking to compare. Our 2023 M3 RWD w/ lfp is at 20,963 miles and shows 264 miles of range for a loss of a little over 3%. Up until last week, I've been charging it to 100% almost every day. I'm a range anxiety kinda guy and it's taken me awhile to adjust to this. I got the Tessi app and am trying to keep the battery at a lower state of charge and charge once a week to 100%. This week, I've also set the charge limit to 90%. We mostly charge at home and have used 5.9mWh in a year. We almost never supercharge, but my wife did take the kids on a 4000 mile road trip - during that time she consumed 1.6 mWh in 1 month on superchargers.
@ That’s interesting as I had the same number, 264 miles, at the beginning of summer at around roughly 21k odometer. And I too used to keep it at high state (multiple full charges/week & generally over 80%) until recently, following Kyle’s Always-Be-Charging principle. The drain was excessive this summer, which was particularly severe this year, here in the Bay Area. Heat & high state of charge could be the factors to look out for.
@@concinnus i didnt say compared to NMC i just compared different charging habits in lfps
Hi Tijmen, not only have the AC compressor replaced but I would clean the condenser fins on the front and put a screen guard to keep it clean. Debris is often the cause of AC issues and poor AC in hot climate could have also resulted in battery degradation as the pack may not have been kept within normal temps during charging and heavy usage!
If I may ask, what type of screen guard should be used? Does Tesla sell one of these screen guards or are they sold in local automotive parts stores?
@@busog97641 Amazon has a number of them 2PCS Front Grill Mesh for Tesla Model Y, Air Inlet Vent Grille Cover, Mesh Bright Black Bumper Vent Grille Replacement for Tesla Model Y 2020 to 2023
Living in AZ and being a stats nerd I will tell you that Tesla does NOT do anything related to battery cooling during the summer months! I have had 2 model Ys and I rarely see pack temps below 100f even over night. Then during the day 110-115 pack temps can be very normal. If you supercharge during the day in AZ, 140f then they just slowly go down to 120 after supercharging. If you supercharge here it’s brutal day after day. I’m lucky to also have a garage with AC so I think some have it even worse.
Does Tesla not run the AC to keep the battery cooler if it's plugged in? Even the bolt EUV does that.
@@fubolibs4218the only time I can tell they cool the battery is after supercharging to get the battery from 140f back down to around 120f. Also, using track mode on my performance model will also cool the battery as well but that is a choice I have to make, not Tesla.
@JimBoomer weird. My bolt starts the coolant when battery pack is 90F and stops when it cools below 80. That's why it's plugged in.
@@fubolibs4218 Now, I should note that the car itself may be running some cooling through the loop to do some cooling. But the pack temps them self are all high all the time in the dead heat of summer for both of my MYPs I have had (late 2021/Late 2023). Tesla just doesn't do any meaningful cooling IMO. I don't get why.
@JimBoomer that's weird. Even if it's plugged in??? I would imagine it would just run the AC power and cool the pack.
So, my model 3 performance has 250 miles of range after 250k miles. Original battery. Almost 0 maintenance. 100% on highway going 80mph is about 200 miles to empty
Nice
@2021PorscheTaycanTurboS. you mean year?
@2021PorscheTaycanTurboS all good.
Lucky lucky lucky
Proof? Upload a video showing would be great!
Not bad given it’s a 2018. Can’t wait to see the performance upgrades and it hitting the tracks. It’s gotta be better than my leaf’s degradation which was at 60% capacity.
Actually 60% health is a level that's indicating the battery may need to be replaced soon, as the degradation rate of the lithium battery is pretty much linear until it reaches 65-60% health but after that the degradation rate is getting more and more intense
Keep checking the battery health regularly if you're still using it everyday
Watching this on my lunchbreak in the middle of rebuilding a Kia Niro gearbox, haha.
A little note on another important factor for battery health (which you can access with ScanMyTesla) is the CAC differential of the individual bricks within the battery. CAC stands for Calculated Amp-hour Capacity, and is essentially a calculation that the BMS makes for the capacity of each "brick" within the battery. Given that this car appears to have a pretty low voltage imbalance, the CAC differential is probably pretty low (though at around halfway SoC, the voltage imbalance is usually at it's lowest, so not the best indicator).
Once a pack reaches a high enough threshold for CAC differential, it can reach a point where the BMS can no longer effectively keep the cells balanced, which usually leads to an increasing SoC/voltage imbalance. If the imbalance reaches a big enough discrepancy, the BMS will throw an alert and limit the maximum charge level of the battery (usually a target of 3.8v max for the highest brick). For legacy Model S/X, this alert is a BMS_u018, and for Model 3/Y the alert is BMS_a066.
In general, I would say the point at which CAC differential starts to become "concerning" would be if the discrepancy between the highest and lowest bricks starts to exceed ~4%. It will probably remain functional in the shorter term, but could indicate that the lowest brick is likely on a "downhill slide" (especially if it's just one brick that is significantly lower). There can be external factors that affect this, such as an issue with the BMS, but more likely indicates one or more cells that have become "parasitic" and are slowly draining energy from the cells around them.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing that.
Thanks. It seems to me that the most common mode of failure for a battery is for a single cell or brick to lose capacity. In a 1P battery, the cell with marginally weakest performance early in battery life is the one which will fail. In a multiple P battery, a single 'brick' will fail prematurely.
Repair costs can be reduced significantly if a replacement of the faulty cell or brick with another used one with similar capacity to the other good ones in the battery can be carried out.
@@RWBHere Sort of depends on the car... Single cell failures are probably one of the most common "true" killers of these packs (which is also why that CAC differential is important, if there are one or more underperforming cells in a brick, it will often be reflected in that data).
At least on legacy Model S/X I would actually say that moisture intrusion is at least equally as common of a "pack killer", though those issues are usually repairable. Particularly on the oldest packs, moisture intrusion causes damage to the BMS electronics (usually corroded capacitors on the BMBs). Once you get to later packs, that issue was fixed, but what often happens is the development of an isolation fault, which can typically be remedied by taking the pack apart, drying it out, and then putting it back together with new umbrella valves, etc.
Obviously with moisture intrusion, particularly in the case of isolation faults, timeliness in getting it pulled apart and dried out is critical to avoid corrosion and other permanent damage to the cells.
Unfortunately, in the case of cell failures, module replacements just are not generally a viable repair method for Teslas... The BMS is just too sensitive to even the smallest differences in capacity, and they have very limited balancing capabilities. Even internally, Tesla stopped doing module replacements on Reman packs, as they often didn't last more than 2 years, even with a nearly unlimited supply of modules to pick and choose from for capacity matching. For a small shop with limited modules to choose from, it's even more "un-viable" to swap out modules. Now for some other cars, module swapping is a lot more possible, due to either less sensitive BMS tuning, or better balancing capability (or both).
My June 2023 Tesla model 3 has 100,000 miles on it. 4% degradation so far. LFP. People don't want to believe me, but it's been tested two different ways and they both come up the same.
Yep, same here. I have a 2022 Model 3 RWD (LFP) with almost 107k miles, and I currently have about 4.5% degradation. People don’t realize how resilient the LFP packs are.
I'd have to agree that previous charging and storage was probably to blame. I tend to keep my Mid-Range 2018 at 70-75% and it still turning at 56.7kwh usable / 239 miles at 100% - current milage 107k miles. Nominal new was 65.1kwh and had 63sh kwh usable with a 2.1kwh buffer. I also live in the PNW were we see extreme heat for 3 months and cooler weather the remaining.
My new 2024 Model Y reported 83sh kwh new nominal and 2.4kwh buffer and after 14,000 miles still giving 80sh full so very little so far. Daily charge on this is 75% like my mid-range. Only ever 100% charged this for road trips and used it within the 24 hours of leaving to the trip, so less than 12 hours sitting at max 100%. Have to see where this goes as the car ages. I took the mid-range in used with 7700 miles, so it sat at airport at unknown state of charge for that first bit, but overall degradation has been minimal on it.
Bjorn Nyland was able to pull out just 73kWh from his 2019 M3perf., and EVdatabase reported 73.5kWh usable
This car was beat up its entire life. Look at that steering wheel. Good lord. My 2021 (delivered late 2020) LRAWD has 55k miles and is practically indistinguishable from new. However, I am also seeing around 10% degradation which is unfortunate. Car is supercharged a lot and would often go to 90% back when Tesla said that was ok to do. North Carolina mild weather. Love the car, but it sucks that Tesla completely dismisses degradation whatsoever when asked about it. See the new model 3 review with jay Leno. When asked, the engineers said the most you would see was 3-4 percent over a decade. Unfortunate that they are lying through their teeth.
My LG battery has after 56.000km and a lot of high speed driving on the German Autobahn still 98,3% capacity. The LG is really good.
How many years?
Really insightful video as a 2018 Performance owner with 104k miles
I have a 2018 model 3 long range at 109k mile and I have almost 20% degradation. I've been very gentle with it but the degradation ramp up in the last few years. Sadly I don't think I'll exceed 30% degradation before I hit 120k miles
What do you mean by “very gentle”?
@ very little super charging except summer beach trips and otherwise kept it under 85% charge the first few years and under 80% charge on Tesla’s new recommendations.
@ your degradation would’ve been roughly half of what it is if you set your charge limit to 50-55
I think some of the 2018 batteries were not great. 2018 LR with 56k miles and ScanMyTesla reports nominal full pack at 65.9, so 12%. Charged to 90% as recommended for the first few years.
@@DonColeman yep. I think we had the 1st or 2nd batch of model 3s and Tesla recommended charging to 90%....I charged to 85% but I saw a dramatic rise in degradation this year.
It's crazy how awesome this turned out!
I have a 2020 Model 3 SR+ . Rated range was about 400km and I'm at 360km right now after almost 4.5 years of ownership. I drove in frigid temperatures (Montreal, Toronto, Niagara region) a lot and the first 18 months, the charging was all Tesla SC. After those 18 months, its all slow home charging at home.
We want part 2 of i90 surge❤
Having worked with Li-ion batteries on and off for 25 years the simplest degradation formula is SoC x Temp x Time.
DC charging causes high temperature and keeps the battery voltage at maximum (they follow a CC-CV regime) which is the same or even worse than 100% as the polarization is high....
If all factors are high they wear down.
But if you keep time at 100% SoC close to zero (and SoC under 80%) you are fine. In the winter time it is less critical.
Using this formula and living in Scandinavia I kept my 24 kWh Nissan Leaf to all 12 bars of SoH (last time I used the Spy it was 91% SoH but you can't trust it) when I sold it after 6 years and 80.000 km.
My ID.3 claimed 89% after 145.000 km on Aviloo.
However my Model 3 (2019 Freemont awd version) I haven't tested but I would expect ~90% at 101.000 km now
All cars have only been DC charged a limited number of times except for the model Y that has taken some holiday driving).
I am actually under-impressed by Tesla.
There shouldn't be any problem in getting cells to cycle 1000 cycles to 90% nowadays. That would equal more than 300.000 kilometers to >90% SoH with that size of battery.
My wife drives a LFP model Y with just under 40.000 km it seems not to have experienced any wear (I don't charge it to 100% more than once a week or less).
"I think Kyle is more concerned about this car than I am" haha
Cool to see this content! My 2018 3P has 74K miles, Colorado car, about 8k miles in Minnesota now, 65 kWh. Not sure on charging history, that 8k is about 25% supercharging
I'm with the others that have pointed to the beat up suspension and high regen factor, indicating the car was rode hard and put away wet for those 40k miles. Because at that level of capacity loss, he'd reach warranty replacement by 75k miles, which is simply crazy.
Another anecdote, is that I have a Polestar 2 with 39k miles, and virtually all AC charging, but pretty much plugged in every evening and charged to 90%. My last battery state of health check had the battery at just under 96%. So a loss of around 1% for every 10k miles of usage. That's in line with what others have seen as well. The caveats there are, there's the assumption that a brand new, zero mile, battery starts at 100% exactly, which it may not, and then of course use cases, charging type/frequency, and ambient temps are all additional factors.
Yep - that is all part of buying a used car, especially cheaper one, that has been through a few different owners. That is why we need to start having honest conversations on the process and cost of battery replacements. Not everybody can afford new cars and simply scrapping old ones because the battery has aged out.
@markmonroe7330 I don't fully agree with your conclusion. I do think we need to seriously talk about having regulations in place that require reporting the battery state of health as part of a non-private, person to person, sale. That way people/the market can properly value cars that have been beat on, as was the case with this one.
However, just because the degradation was so bad on this one early in its life, doesn't mean that the degradation continues at that same rate under a new owner, and thus requiring a battery replacement at the accelerated time table. So, for someone that just needs cheap(er) transportation, doesn't drive much, and plans to L1 or L2 charge all the time, then the car could be perfectly fine for them for 10, 20, 30 years.
You never fail to surprise us!
My 2017 model S has 9% loss after 125k miles. Most of that was in the beginning and hasn’t changed much since.
Yup.
Really enjoy this type of content. There needs to be more videos about battery degradation. I see private sellers all the time stating that their cars batteries have been “babied” and have low degradation because they’ve only ever charged to 80%. Actually no, in many cases it has shown that charging to 100% isn’t much different than charging to 80% in terms of degradation. If you care about degradation, setting your charge limit to 50%-55% can cut your degradation in half in comparison to those that charge to 80%.
Also the whole “I can charge my LFP pack to 100% all day everyday and not worry about degradation” is a fallacy. The 100% recommendation for LFP packs has to do with pack voltage and BMS calibration. Set your LFP charge limit to 70%, with the occasional 100% charge for the BMS, if you care about degradation.
if as a potential EV buyer, I have to keep the EV battery from 25 percent to 70 percent everyday. the car is worthless to me.
@@cutehumornot very hard if you have home charging. I don’t even think about it. Also there is nothing you HAVE to do. Let me ask you this, do you optimize everything with your ICE to ensure it lasts longer? Probably not.
@@cutehumor also the “below 20% is bad for you battery” is a large overblown fallacy too
I have a model x 90 D d that I purchased on December 31st, 2016. I live in Southern California and you are more than welcome to come and test the battery health test in any way you like. Based on scan my Tesla, I think I have only 73 kW hour left
My 2018 M3 with 60k miles on it still had 97% of original capacity when I sold it this year. Such a great car.
2018 Model 3 Performance, 75,000 miles (120,000km).
At 100% SOC, shows 260 miles (420km).
Real world mileage has been between 181mile-238mile (290km-380km) the handful of times driving 100% to under 3% (sport mode with roof rack)
Recent health test 83%
I have a 2021 Dual Motor 3 with 34,000 Miles. Im sitting at 13% Battery Degredation since new. Vehicle charges to 313 miles indicated, but realistically I've only ever seen 250miles out of it. I am running Zero-G wheel's with stock size PS4S tires. But I'm somehow getting lower Wh/MI now then I was when the vehicle was new with the 19" Sport V2 wheels and stock continental tire.
that's a bad battery module. get it serviced and they will replace
@@bridamythey will not replace it with 87% health
@@linu4592 if it's 3 years old and already at 87 yes they will. if not sue them
@@bridamy the warranty description is clear they will not change it i am in the same situation
@@linu4592 well if that's true another reason I'm glad I went with a legacy manufacturer for my ev
We need this test on used ID.4, Ioniq 5, BMW i4, and any other high volume EVs coming off lease to see if a second hand EV makes any sense to purchase.
Based on the comments, this is a worst case.
Heat is the biggest factor affecting battery health
Coolant recirculates through the battery pack
@@foam27 Yes, but even Teslas have thermal issues. Drive one during peak Texas heat in the Summer on the highway and it burns so much energy just trying to stay cool. I did this last Summer and it was a pretty bad experience, had to wait until dark to have the range to make it to my next charging stop.
That seems like a lot to me. I currently have a Kia EV6. Technically, this is my second one since someone hit the first one. With my first one being the Wind rear-wheel drive, I put 60,000 miles on that car, and with my scan tool plugged in, I only had a 0.5% degradation. I use exclusively the fast chargers because I primarily use the car to do Uber. When I've used the fast charger, I charge my car up to 100%, and I only have a little bit of degradation. Versus this car that's mostly been AC charged, I get that it's been an Arizona car, but that still seems like a lot of battery loss in the time that it's been on the road.
Every battery degrades, it is physics. KIA is taking different strategy to battery capacity management. It provides only limited usable capacity to customer and leaves a hidden buffer which is then used to compensate for capacity lost via degradation. Kia does not have any special technology which avoids battery degradation, you just can use less capacity from beginning.
35:00 A piece on Tesla's battery and drivetrain warranties would be great. Not only covering the new cars, but the older versions like this that are now becoming very affordable.
The reason we might be concerned about battery degradation is the impact on range.
For me, the best way to test is to measure the available range on a known route/speed/temperature.
Out of curiosity I'd like to know what the "guess o meter" predicted range was at 100% SOC.
This matches my experience. I had a 2019 SR+ with 16% degradation at 65k miles. One year later closer to 79k Tesla actually refused to provide me an update on my degradation. At that point the car was even worse and could not complete my daily 100 miles commmute with more than 20% left. It was charged at home everyday to 80% and I’m in the mid Atlantic so mild weather.
It’s great that Tijmen wants to DIY the AC compressor but it’s very possible that the evaporator and condenser coil need replacement, as well as the lines. If the compressor grenaded itself, there is metal throughout the whole system now. It’s typical for Tesla to have to do this when a compressor fails.
Still possible if you’re an advanced DIY’er, but beware it may not be as simple as just replacing the compressor and calling it a day.
Good information for me to look at if I'm in the market for a used EV.
Auto journo Rory in Great Britain has interviewed a ModS Taxi owner that has 400,000 of mostly SCharged miles , he still had 100 miles of range when he changed thd battery pack . For comparison any high perf BMW or Mercedes ICE replacement will on average cost ofer $20,000 from a that companies dealer ,and that is just for the ENGINE😊
I'm the only one in America that prefers chrome. Love the way the the chrome looks on his 3. I hate all the black all my Y especially the wheel covers.
Holy hell that thing is a wreck for having less than 40,000 miles on it. 16% battery degradation in 6 years, 40K miles?
My June 2023 Tesla model 3 has 100,000 miles on it. 4% degradation so far. LFP. People don't want to believe me, but it's been tested two different ways and they both come up the same.
Uber or rental? If the car was abused (charging to 100%, potholes, ..). No different than an ICE with 40K miles never having the oil changed.
@@ericgregori It had less than 40k miles in 6 years, no way that's an uber or rental. Just as Kyle said, hot Arizona weather plus high % storage will do this
This thing is in line with early passive cooling Nissan Leaf battery degredation!
@@MH-Tesla 4 percent is crazy low.
How well does the battery management work with non-functioning AC?
My car was delivered new on a Friday with non functional a/c. Tesla said to bring it back the next week for repair. The car operated fine with no error messages.
That seems like a lot of DC charging.
That's 1/3 of the battery usage.
I'm not sure I'd call that "primarily A/C charged".
==================
For comparison here's my gently used low mileage 2018:
05/25/24
2018 Tesla Model 3, AWD, 20,201 Miles
Battery health: 91%
Charged to 296 miles after health test
---------------------
Daily charged to 60-65%.
Supercharged only on rare road trips.
I tried 60% charging on my MYP. It was a mistake. Tho I avg 390-405 why on the highway at 70-80 mph. Tesla said that was normal ..... I was expecting 320 or less.
@@duramaxadventures5832 maybe I missed something. Why was that a mistake?
@@David_L3 because the car limits power at 55-60% SOC so you don't have the passing power you expect on the highway. Was annoying.
To be more direct to the issue, I had to visit a supercharger every two days because of the consumption being so high. I couldn't replenish the usage at at my house overnight.
To give you an idea how bad it was in real world terms. I was taking a trip to Cali, I top charge at a supercharger (so sit there for 2 hours in Goodyear Arizona). And I would pull into quartzsite at 1% on a brand new pack .... so as degradation happens that trip is not possible and there is not another supercharger.
That's 112 miles ....... EPA said 303.
I tried PHX to Tuscon, It's 200 miles round trip The vehicle should easily be able to do that. NOPE SC at Eloy AZ on the way there and then AGAIN on the way back ....
Tesla service center saw the car five times they insisted that everything was normal and that's just "what they do in AZ" I was SHOOK.
ANYWAY I GUESS YOU ASKED WHY 60% WAS AN ISSUE IT WAS AN ISSUE BECAUSE IT SIMPLY WAS NOT ENOUGH CHARGE AND I HAD TO RESCHEDULE MY LIFE AND BE LIKE OH NO I CAN'T TAKE THE CAR TO GO GET FOOD THIS EVENING CUZ I NEED TO MAKE SURE I GET AS MUCH CHARGE AS POSSIBLE SO I'M NOT SPENDING TOO MUCH AT THE SUPERCHARGER.
@@David_L3 shoot whoops caps
@@duramaxadventures5832 oh I see. That makes sense. You certainly need to put in what you need for a daily drive. That's a lot of driving. If you don't have the range for your daily drive the EV might not be for you.
We’ve got two 2018 Model 3 LR RWD cars, with 95k and 129k miles respectively. So seems like you actually have 4 data points you could compare: Tesla’s GOM miles at 100%, the driving test kWh discharged, the Service Mode percentage result and finally Scan My Tesla reported capacity. I’d argue that the GOM miles at 100% must be linked to the reported capacity and therefore can be used as the quickest way to assess a car someone wants to buy.
I would even argue that because the GOM is linear for kWh that if you do a ratio of miles to SOC that if you ask the dealer selling a car to quickly switch between miles and soc and tell me both numbers that you can really quickly assess a car and sort the highly degraded packs from the well treated examples.
To Kyle - I own a 21 model 3 salvage car with 34k miles and I live in a mild climate. My car sat in an auction yard for 9 months and went to 0% soc , I would guess it sat like that for a long time before I revived it. Would be interesting to compare my situation - do you think my battery health would be impacted by that ?
Btw Thanks for making all these great videos
Remember that you can check the health percentage on your screen by doing the same procedure in the video.
Woah!!! No arms akimbo thumbnail! NICE!
Thanks for another interesting video. Tesla has a very good buffer below 0 percent, in contrast to many other ev. Have heard it several times.
Great test! I would love to see how this compares to a 2020 Model 3 LR. It would be great if the car would record more statistics on their usage, I think it would really help when going for sale. Again, I really enjoy watching these. Please think about getting high visibility vests for the end of these tests to stay safe.
16% loss seems excessive for 40K miles. But as you say, hot AZ weather can contribute to that, and maybe it was charged to 100% many times and left sitting.
Is the AC also cools the batteries? AC problem may mean the battery was operating at less than ideal conditions?
The ideal SOC is NOT as low as possible. For NMC batteries, it is about 50-60%. Do not mislead your viewers! Battery wear works differently at low SOC, but it is generally more harmful than high SOC, though 20% should still be reasonably safe.
Do you want references?
I was thinking similar, low SOC is worse on the battery than high SOC.
Zero g wheels look so sick. Great upgrade Tijmen 🔥
It's not that the AC is broken that's then skewed the result?
Right - does M3P have a separate a/c compressor for battery vs the interior? If not, a broken compressor could impact battery life
It only has one compressor. But that wont inpact this test, it might just explain the degradation if it's broken for a long time. But I doubt someone would drive a car without AC in Arizona :D
I literally just watched the first before in this series- so hyped!!
OOSR - can we get a monthly or quarterly look at charging networks in the USA.
I'd like to see how much your R1T battery has degraded since you bought it.
My R1T has about 4% loss in 37k miles, 15 months.
That's with a lot of deep DCFC sessions, and more than a handful of times running it almost to 0.
I have a 2018 m3 dual motor. 95% was ac charged. My compressor went bad too but you have no idea until you check the service menu. I live in Los Angeles so heat is not too bad. My degradation is probably 84% too. I think it was the compressor not working and likely allowing battery temps to get too high.
If the a/c isn’t working, the cabin is hot while driving. What are we missing here?
@ my ac was working, it’s not the compressor on the ac side, it’s on the coolant side.
The big question is, will Solid State battery technology be able to be made into battery packs to breath new life into old used Teslas?
26:30 "There he goes, makin' a U-turn. As we get right back up to speed, we're gonna duck in behind him."
If you were a true friend, you'd let him draft you.
Wow that's a massive amount of kwh lost. Almost 8kwh less than my July 2019 Performance with 45K miles. That's a massive loss.
Okay I'm four minutes in and I would not have purchased this car. That's a long list of issues.
Go buy 7 years old BMW. You will have less issues for sure 😉
Yes, way too many red flags. I would not buy a car from a hot weather state like Arizona and the unrepaired damage indicates an abusive/careless owner.
These guys will create a bunch of issues just for clicks/ views.
Had a 2018 back in 2018, had no issues until I sold it 4 years later
Depends on who you are. If you have minimal mechanical skill, like doing a brake job is no big deal, then you know the mechanical side with this car isn't a big deal. Normal wear and tear sort of stuff.
@@enoughofthiswho is "these guys"? Kyle? Who explicitly said multiple times that he wouldn't get this car and advised against it in the original video? Or the sometimes guest who did it anyway and has little if any financial stake in the channel?
Scan my Tesla shows 63kwh on my 2018 model 3 with 168,000 miles. With Tijmen' car, it showed 64kwh. Im curious if the Scan my Tesla is consistently that close to actual capacity.
We got a ioniq 38, 4 years, 65k km and we can't see any degradation..range do not seems to decrease.. we always charge at 90% though.
Maybe you can finally get Dom in Battery Bargains to stop obsessing over low miles
Young Jack Black sure knows his stuff! 😝
Good thing he went with Amber
I had a 2018 M3P, 53k miles, SoCal, AC Charged 98%, Tesla ran it remotely after several service visits, 11% degradation after 2 years. These performance models DO degrade faster, may be the way the software/motors is running?
Tijmen hopefully you get everything lined out with the car Kyle didn't seem to like the car on video all that much but like you said in person he wanted you to buy it but in the end im sure itll all work out
Giving this a like bacause Tijmen is cool. Id love to grab a beer with this one. He so calm and chill lol
That is not gonna happen.
I would be super interested in knowing how much capacity the refurbished batteries Tesla installs have when replaced under warranty.
Any updates on this vehicle and work you’ve done?
I waited for this video so long that I forgot and just bought Tesla Model Y. Still waiting for a video why Mckayla got rid of ID.4 and what did she replace it with?
Yeah I think temps and state of charge probably played a big part with why his battery degraded as much as it did
New M3 battery has 74.3 kWh usable!
Very interesting. I would be interested in what non Tesla cars show as well. I’m surprised this is so bad but it’s probably an outlier. I have thought about doing a similar test on my Kia when I have time.
That's pretty high loss for those miles. I checked our Ioniq 5 just past 60k miles and it said like 72,600 WH remaining at 100% charge, 74,000 was new new so it's down 1.9% and the car still reports 100% SOH. But we live outside Seattle so no extreme temperatures and it's AC charged 95% of the time then since we have home charging I charge it often rather than letting it get down to 20% or less.
I have many friends (Chicago) with Telsas well under 90% capacity left. Interestingly, my AC charged 2019 Leaf Plus is doing worse (10.3% loss) with 40K miles, than my DC charged 2019 Leaf (9% loss).
We need an update on this car now!!!!!!!!!
So I saw your tweet that's NOTHING. 2023 MYP lost $4 per mile driven. At least your Plaid was only 2.50 per mile!
Hmm, I wonder if the test would have been any different had you charged up to 100% with a level 2 charger as opposed to super charging. I've typically held the believe that slow in slow out (relatively).
Hey Kyle, when are you getting your CT wrapped? It's been over 6 months now. My suggestion is a colored matte ppf.
1:18 of commercials to start the video is starting to feel like you jumped the shark.
Calendar degradation is far more impactful than mileage
Only if stored at high temp and high soc.
@ no, regardless
From what I’ve seen, deg is not linear with age, and essentially levels off at some point (around 80-100 k and around 5-8 yrs). Thoughts?
I would think that the cars cooling systems would keep the battery at a safe temp when resting if the car is plugged in.. Maybe the AC compressor has been faulted for a long time, or underperforming? BTW get that fixed ASAP. If the compressor grenades.. it will throw metal trash all thru the system, much mor expensive. So fix it or disable it until you do.
My Bolt EV will have the AC going over 3KW when parked in summer heat and plugged in.. I think It targets 90F when on plugged in and 100F when not.
Looking forward to future videos on the car..
Comparison. I have a 2018 low VIN LR RWD M3. Original owner with 90k miles. Texas car.
Running ScanMyT3sla results in 64.0 capacity. Virtually identical.
No squeaks or AC noise though.
If the battery charged to 100% has a buffer with residual miles when the vehicle charge level is at 0, are we really charging to 100% or to some other lesser percentage?
7:10 false. You cannot just replace the compressor. I mean, you can, but it will need replacement shortly after. You need to replace all of the parts. The evaporator, the condenser, the expansion valve, the dryer and probably the lines too.
When a compressor fails, it sends the pieces throughout the system. Those pieces are tiny. You cannot get them all out. You have to replace the whole system. Unless it an exterior failure, like the drivebelt bearing (which I would imagine a Tesla doesn't have) or something.
My 2018 M3P with 90k charges to 267. So 11-12%
For those thinking this is the only way to test this, please DON'T DO THIS. It can damage the battery. Google Tesla service mode. There is a way to do this in there, right in your garage/carport, connected to a Level 2 charger.