Envoy XUV is BACK...and I CAN'T FIX IT?! (Power Roof FAIL)
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- The 2004 GMC Envoy XUV is back from North Carolina to finally restore the Convertible POWER ROOF functionality.
6 months ago we found that the POWER ROOF MODULE (PRM) was dead in the water, and needed to be replaced:
• Convertible Truck...Ca...
A viewer sent me the UNOBTANIUM replacement POWER ROOF MODULE that he found at a local junkyard!
Now the XUV is back for repairs. Will the replacement PRM do the trick?
Not so easy...this XUV just might be UN-FIXABLE!!
After 8 HOURS of frustration (which I can't charge for!!), I send the customer back down to NC to visit Keith "the GURU" DeFazio of New Level Auto.
Let's see if Keith can work his magic on this Cursed Envoy XUV...
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Enjoy!
Ivan
45 years ago I had a '77 Volkswagen Rabbit with a sunroof operated by a manual hand crank. Positive open and closed with infinate stop positions in between. Stop closed position was indicated when the crank wouldn't turn any more. The learn procedure involved remembering to turn the crank counter clockwise to open and clockwise to close.
Yep, next thing we will see are electronic lug nuts and how to diagnose removing them !
Indeed!
even in Europe?
Wouldn't it be the opposite way? After all, it is German.
Shazam! What will they think of next? Clearly, intellectual property games have gone too far in the automotive industry: hiding 'learn mode' procedure from techs... damages the vehicle owners wallets because mechanics can only fishtail around a system to hope [by accidental discovery] a fix is found.
🤣 as Mr O says, a solution to a problem that never existed.
"Complexity is the enemy of reliability." Some things never change.
Well said..👏and this complexity is to fix..laziness
Absolutely!
@@Dytopjewa7631 Just about all the electronic gadets in vehicles are there for this exact reason & selling points.
Great quote!
Asking Keith for help is an admirable trait on Ivan’s part. Everything in life is a learning experience.
Who else is addicted to his videos?
Wow! The level of complexity to perform a simple task is astounding on these vehicles.
Smells like a logic interlock, so yes: one module being down [or having a dead I/O channel] locks up another where code waits for a predefined enable bit. The scattering of these modules is what? Kind of ruins the entire concept of central point troubleshooting... which is the ONLY benefit of computer controls. We should not have more than two on a vehicle: one for engine control, another for auxiliary functions. So it appears this vehicle is a case study in retarded engineering - too much time on CAD, not enough on systems.
@@flinch622 Never a truer statement uttered.🤣
GM and Honda both seem to have this calibration/learn mentality that everything must be in just the right place, and happen in just the right order, with just the right conditions, in order to even attempt the learn, and both manufacturers absolutely love to conveniently leave details out of their documentation, and have the scantool only give you a failure message, not a reason why. In '04, I get it; limited data availability and transfer speeds. But I've had 2023s pull this garbage on me, and there's no excuse. :(
Well said
A few years back, I commented on another one of Ivan's videos that the stupid computer knows which of the code setting criteria triggered the code. Why can't OBD II or the display in the infotainment system tell you everything the computer knows. There's no excuse. On another note, I work with software engineers who complain about other software engineers printing "-1" to the screen when there's an error. At least here the computer is telling you there's an error :-)
Not just in the auto industry. I work in communications, and if you don't attend factory training when it's offered, to learn the 'tricks' the service manuals are great reference, but in the auto equivalency it's the difference between being paid a flat rate of 3 hours to do a job that the book says is a 7 hour job; but knowing how to do it in an hour in a half....
@@major__kong Error handling is a lot more complex a process than you'd expect, and in 2004, the subroutine to do the roof position learn is only able to parse a go/no-go state, and the subroutine halts as soon as it finds an error, in order to reduce processor time and code complexity. Nowadays though, it's just flat out unacceptable that proper error handling and reporting isn't built into more vehicles.
GM has gotten a little better about things, now having "halt state" data in some modules, but it's nowhere near as detailed and helpful in troubleshooting as Toyota's RoB History function, VW's Guided Fault Finding, or Kia/Hyundai/Genesis' inbuilt data.
@@rhkips it irked me when the warning came up on the dash, but no codes were stored whatsoever 😒
Thank you for confirming my persistant distaste for sunroofs. The extra expense at some point has nightmare written all over it.
Sunroof actually worked fine on this truck 😅
I say, manual sunroof=yes, electric sunroof=no
Ivan.. May not matter at this point, but at 23:30 when you tried to do the relearn for the last time, the engine was not running. Keep up the great videos
Hot coffee and a Pine Hallow video, it’s gonna be a great morning 😉
Ivan Foiled by a piece of batting? This one has been interesting, possibly craft stuff got shut in gate hmm honey! 🤣😂 Thanks Keith brought me back to old times when you 2 did the cars together 🙂
23:36 was the truck running? My 2004 k2500hd had a hvac issue where it would keep trying to adjust the blend door. I cleaned the pot wiper but the problem remained so i just selected a temp away from full and it stopped. My point is the programming allows for unreal conditions where a simple switch diagram with relay logic lockouts would make diagnosing less of an art.
Well, though it seems a bit crazy to most, if the owner wants it back to original and He is paying for it, good for Him. Makes for some interesting content and schooling! 👍👍🇺🇸
This is a great case study!
Oh, you didn’t learn the rear window before trying to learn the roof! Wow, that’s crazy lol. Tech 2 win is not 100% identical to Tech2, of course geez. What a pain…😅 Fuzz in the mechanism, of course!! haha…..and its broke again wtf
That missing ground on the relay is the key. A switch, sensor or other module is not connecting it to ground. A full and correct wiring diagram would certainly be helpful.
A micro-switch somewhere in there guaranteed.
Well Ivan when you and Keith have not been able to resolve this issue taking it to the dealer would have been a waste of time and money, can't wait for part 2
Could it be the limit switches?
Both reading 0 is suspect to me!
Surprisingly there are no limit switches. Limit = motor stall lol!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics MCU monitors current consumption on the motor circuit. It counts pulses from encoder "position sensors" until it sees a spike in current from the stalled motor.
It was nice to see Keith in action again.
Wow! Now that it actually worked everyone will need to know why it stopped after one day. The challenge is on! Great video!
Oh my Lord when I read that it stopped working the next day I laughed so hard..
Poor guy..
A fresh pair of eyes spotted something else causing the problem.
What a crazy system to beat two great techs.
Best thing for the customer to do with this vehicle is close the windows then remove the power fuse then drive the car till the rust causes it’s death. Or scrap the car! Cold solder joints can cause all kinds of problems!😊
One amazing video. GM sure made this complicated.
A valiant effort for sure Ivan. Seems to work like a folding hard top with multiple micro position switches to monitor position.
I have an 05 xuv. I came across same issue. After many hours of my life, that i will never get back, doing endgate latches, window and roof relearns. My solution was to wire in a switch for the roof. (Bypass the module)
For the endgate functions i use a small bidirectional scanner that i found for $100 on amazon. Via an app on my phone.
Another problem i had to fix was 4wd disconnect. Other than that it's a cool... truck? Its unique and kinda rare. That's why it was worth saving a small piece of americana to me.
Mine has the 5.3L and ive growen to love it
The little bypassss switch doesnt even alter the look if you get the right switch with a decent looking mounting bracket to look profressional. Dont use some cheap looking toogle switch. Save that crap for the batmobile.
Hi thanks for your fix. I would love to know how to get endgate working ? Glass up & down on scanner ?
What a cool ending but unfortunately something minor was overlooked. Nice to see Keith
MotoYam
Can't wait for pt3 !!
Could possibly be damaged vias through the board on that ground supply for the relay. Could be shorted decoupling capacitor. Could be broken solder joint on a current sense/shunt resistor. The MCU on that board will most definitely be monitoring current draw through the motor. If the sense circuitry is damaged it wont allow motor operation.
Wow a bunch of cotton balls might have beat you up. Sounds like the owner is now in a position of no return. It is a nice truck. Is it worth it??? Only the owner has a say there in my opinion. Can't wait to see the final solution, if there is one..... Good luck men
To Customer; You will owe him more than a beer.
I got a full NC BBQ dinner, country breakfast, and a comfy couch to sleep on when I revisit this beast in the next part 😉
Nice! Watch your channel every day Thank You @@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics You can't beat that, there are things in this world that are way better than money, in my opinion. And a southern dinner and breakfast would definitely be towards the top of the list.
That is a familiar looking NEC relay... Looks like a common relay from mid 90s to mid 2000s. I have an Audi CCM with a similiar double relay that controls the vacuum pump for the central locking. The relay clicks but the pump only runs in the other direction. Tracks to the microcontroller seem intact for the control side so who knows :D
I enjoy watching these videos! To Me it’s a like getting a good education for free.
I am trying to get the automatic roof learning function to work. I made sure the tailgate window position was learned. I even went and dropped down the mid gate and the tailgate down in the same position with no luck.
Ivan, when the other videos and news of the day, and after watching my other favorite automotive channels, i end with yours. it's always a mental workout and I thoroughly appreciate it. I get much value as I drive 20 year old vehicles, a 2001 Durango and 2003 Dakota both with the 4.7. Owned since 2005 and 2006. Great survivor trucks and they still look sharp cruising main street.
that relay is used just to control polarity for the motor and power goes trough a mosfet. Its a way to make relay last longer by first latching relay contacts and then turning on the power with mosfet. this way no arcing in relay contacts.
So, it took BOTH of you to repair this vehicle, Ivan? You must have been stumped if you had to call Keith. Ya know, he's saved you a few times: Once he helped your wife and the other on a FIAT and now this; he's got a gift. GREAT VIDEO!
Keith got slightly lucky with the backdoor find
Very lucky!
I call it Keith's 6th sense 🧐
I had one the guy had replaced the rear glass regluator. It enver worked right after. I ended up figuring out that the "new" regulator had the motor installed backwards causing the window to go down when ya hit up and up when ya hit down.
I ended up figuring it out with service info and watching live data hitting the switch it would go down and dats showed up.
The last time you tried to relearn, you didn’t have the motor running
I said the same thing
I’m thinking relearn with the supplemental ground and engine running…
It's great to hear Keith!
Great and arduous troubleshooting done on this, Ivan! And Keith in the final stage! Auto manufacturers have got to stop their over-involved electronics and make vehicles that are way simpler to diagnose and repair.
Ivan, It is great that you can look for other for help and not be afraid for others to know it. That is why you keep learning and have evolved to the level that you have. Keep up the great work! Loved this video!
As Eric O says ,"Its time to flush this toilet !"
Iven your amazing hopefully it'll work now after the pin being fixed. Good man Keith you fixed it that was complicated.
Hey man, I just came across your channel and have been watching your vids in my downtime. I have learned so much from you.
Great video and attempt to fix that system.
I have hope for the rest of us if Ivan gets defeated too. I guess the Tech2 difference gave him a handicap to start with.
Actually it wasn't the scanner that handicapped me 😅
even master and grasshopper are not able to fix the over complex door roof mess, well it lasted for 19 yrs time to move on, thanks for posting
hi ivan and hi keith nice to see you again
RUclips channel Watchjrgo 2 years ago fixed his 04 roof. You need tech 2 or he had a high end Autel that would control functions. He did say this roof is a unicorn as far as getting parts.
This!! He has several fix videos from 2 years ago. Forgot about that series. This might be helpful.
I fully rebuilt a butchered end gate with junkyard parts and a tech2 clone... Watchjrgo videos showed me the way!
Well it was worth a shot.. I'm glad it's now fixed. I was thinking it was a position switch issue this time. The roof has to know where the door and window positions are to move or it'll deny permission, similar to a convertible top in these newer cars. That's where the theory of operation comes in handy. Would have never guessed the window learn had to be done before the roof would even move in test.. good work guys..
Hey Ivan 🙋♂️ now that’s it’s 98% there I’ll be happy to take a crack at it for you 😁
Haha thanks Will! Good to see you in the comments section my friend 😉👍
Man what a bugger, to get both gurus working on this! Waiting for the next part!!
If I had a 20 year old truck, I'd just put in a single pole double throw switch. No relays, no limit switches, heavy enough wire to carry the load. As long as I held the switch toggle in the up position, the roof motor would run to open the roof. Hold it down, the motor runs to close the roof. Both cases, the motor runs as long as you are holding the switch. It would be up to the operator not to hold it so long as to blow a fuse or burn out the motor. Crude, but at least it would work.
But what about all the tailgate functions? 😅
Forgot to mention that tech2win does not have all the same functionality of the tech 2. Been there and learned the hard way. Painful that they add the option of the function yet leave out the actual function.
My SPX Geni with the Tech2 software set on it routinely does things that my Tech2 fails or shows errors. The blue/grey colored Genis were popular in GM dealerships around 2006. I see them and the Mac re branded red colored Geni clones called "Determinator" pop up on ebay for cheap.. always wondered what their onboard software is like.
Ivan, I've personally rebuilt an XUV endgate with all junkyard parts and brought everything to functioning with a vcx nano interface and tech2win.
The microswitches in the endgate latches are the first part of the "waterfall" of checks.
Check under Special Functions of End Gate Module... Watch your latch status'
I suspect these are dirty or failing... Also often times if you seperate the latch from the metal housing that bolts to the gate, you find the plastic housing has cracked and the gears are flexing things in the latch in ways they shouldn't.
If you have any questions about my hands on experience with this mind-bender, feel free to reach out.
Good luck,
Javier G
P. S. - I also have multiple latches and other endgate parts available.
I also have physical copies of FSM for that year if you need me to send you some info from the xuv section
Wow, Ivan, that GMC is just a Masterpiece.....
I didn't want to watch comments before I watched the whole video. Great video and FYI don't buy a used one of those folks.
Man I got to know, I've been watching a lot of your videos, are you self-taught? Your videos are amazing
That’s ok Ivan, you have amazing diagnostic skills and are still my favorite youtuber.
It will be great if Keith does a vid on this one, too!
Did you not watch the whole video? lol
Actually, i did watch the whole video, just commented before the end, not expecting bonus footage from Keith. Sounds like he might do a follow-up, though. It would be interesting to see the final on this really challenging diag. You don't seem to "throw in the towel" easily!
A lot to learn, great job, keep us updated.
Wow 300 comments in 16 hours, too much to read. I have one that is working also, 207,000 miles on it. I had updated the pcm with a cheap tech2 knockoff, it says to pull a couple fuses but dont remember which. I went to program it and it failed, long story short i had an aftermarket radio and had to pull that fuse also, almost cost me a lot bit it did reprogram. Not sure this info will help but sometimes its something weird causing an issue. Im not sure why it would stop working again but those latches may be an issue. Interested to see whats the issue now. Ill help anyway i can. I ended up wiring a pushbutton switch in the tailgate cause those pad switches are poo. If i think of anuthing else that will help ill let you know,i did take pics of wiring diagrams but i imagine you have better access to that than i do keep on wrenchin brother
Does the vehicle have to be running in park with the brake pedal depressed. Just thinking out loud, possibly another interlock for safety?
Whatever happened to the days before all these modules. I wouldn’t think they would have anything to do with gas mileage or EPA.
That is a mind boggling problem, Ivan! Seems your Tech2 Win doesn't do all the tricks required - what a convoluted process, with weird (and probably completely unnecessary) interactions!
Keith's experience and a real Tech2, got it right and I was already cheering for him, when I saw the final message in the video! That XUV is really hellbent on not being repaired! Could there be limit switches that are a bit sticky, for not working for a long time?
Hope there will be a Part 2 for this weird case.
I prefer a car that doesn't argue with itself.
I always buy a vehicle with a solid roof. So much easier to live with, and you won't wake up some morning with 2 feet of snow inside your set of wheels either.
My ladyfriend found that out the hard way.
@@luckyguy600 Never been a fan of gadetry only something waiting to fail💩
@@luckyguy600 I agree.. I have a moon roof in my 2002 Acura MDX.. and we never use it. Even when I open it, there is no difference in the cab. It's really overrated and I won't be getting a vehicle with another one. We had a firebird with the T-tops, at least that was kinda cool. I've never been in a car with the panaramic glass over head ( like a tesla)-- but I can only imagine it being another burden. Just stick with a basic cab, you're missing out on anything.
Ivan depending how things turn out, in the next few weeks I may need to have you work on one of my volvo wagons.
I just suffered a stroke…. I can’t even preform a simple brake job currently and my rear pads are shot.
That sounds terrible 😥
Damn thats really bad situation to be in if I was in the US I would come & help you do things like brake work & general tune up stuff (plugs oil change etc ) I hope you recover from that bloody thing my dad had one stuffed him up bad.(The reason for wishing to help).
@@LesReeves seriously, it means the world to me that you and others I never met or seen before are so supportive. The motivation I get feels so good. Thank you for that!
If I absolutely wanted this to work flawlessly I would rework the switches and add a limit switch to the windows and rear cab panel, and the roof panel . The roof would only retract when the end gate window is down, the roof panel will only close when the rear cab panel is down and the endgate window is down.
There is too much going on with switches and electronics for this to be reliable. The system won't function if it doesn't know where the window s exact position is or if the endgate isn't latched properly.
After supplying ground, the truck was not running when you attempted relearn?
23:40 ENGINE MUST BE RUNNING.
I noticed that too, but it ended up being a moot point too.
Thanks Ivan!
its always finding the right info ,whos got it and are willing to share or sell it. just like Kieth, how can you store that much info in your head on so many vehs. their has to be behind the scenes we dont see of communicating with other techs or have contacts higher up in the manufacturers guru guys for info maybe. i use identifix when i get stumped,but they dont always come thru sometimes,. not knocking anyone for having a utube channel and using these vids for content to offset these time consuming jobs with a no fix outcome and no pay from a customer cause you could not fix it. but as a tech myself i have to know when to throw in the towel and not loose valuable time and money. i will never know everything about everything, just wished we could get a network together to help one another, more than enough headache cars to keep us busy, and im glad you spoke of the time you had in this, this is some of the real life things that happen to us all
There is a network. Your on it lol !!!
no disrespect to you , yes i watch these but not to fix my specific problem , because their are so many issues that no one has experienced before even on that one type and year model, its their thought process that leads to a direction they follow that intrigues me. that one veh could have many more issues in the future and they all will never or could be addressed. then throw in the many makes and models. im just saying if techs could correspond more with each other( not the diy guys) we could do a better job . i guess what im trying to say is us techs having our own network@@nowayout73
this is diagnostics gold. Keith needs to start posting videos again. Peace
If I cared about the roof working, which I don't, I think at this point I'd be breaking out an Arduino and perf board and create my own module. However, there's old school systems like this like the electric flaps in my plane that are all mechanical switches including limit switches NO microcontroller. Right now that's looking very attractive.
Relays for control, LEDs as indicators for conditions and it would be possible to make it work.
Watch JR go had a similar problem on of those vehicles and got his working
What an interesting case study!
So up to Avoca NY so Eric o can fix the truck that Ivan and Keith couldn't lol. If Ivan and Keith can't fix it I think the world might be coming to an end. Have mercy
Very good to see you and your creativity
Win some, lose some. E for effort Ivan.
So what was the cause of this initial problem, the module or the tailgate fuzz and not having the tailgate window down and gate open?
We'll see in the conclusion :)
Keith is crazy 😂 I would give anything to learn from him
You just did learn from him.. for free
Dam modules i would go to auto zone by remote 12volt switches with the rocket switches and install them
A valiant effort. Your still my hero Ivan 😂
Seems to be you need a variety of scan tools to cover all the details of every car make and model.
23:24 Maybe that relay is not good in combination with that grounds?
I wonder if the reason you could not fix it in part one was that the rear window wiper was not quite in park? Could not do the window re-learn so you could not do the roof re-learn. obviously would not have fixed the loose regulator but may have got you further down the rabbit hole.
I worked on one of these several years ago when I was in a used car dealer.
needs to be running is a huge thing with gm's and roof functions
The "Position Sensors" are just encoders. Theres no real position data being supplied by them. The MCU just counts the pulses and compares that to learned open & close points. So x number of pulses between open and closed.
If that was my vehicle knowing me i would have bypassed the bs modules and added separate switches and fused relays ! Give you an "A" for effort tho
Problem is that all the 15 different functions are integrated... That would be a crap ton of switches, relays, and wiring 😂
Wow. What a debacle
I've got one of these trucks that's fully working. Would be happy to do some tests or provide info if needed.
Cool! I might have a question for you during the final video on this contraption tomorrow 😉
wow what a journey and not done yet,. this truck is stubborn, lucky it is non essential function to operational driving day to day.
What seems to strike me in this situation and what Ivan has already pointed out along with the guy in North Carolina is,
when there is a loss of ground per say through latch mechanism that isn't working properly is this: loss of ground for
that module to work right. Whether there is a travel issue or tailgate position whereas grounding is achieved ONLY when
certain conditions are met. May it be a certain positioning or a positive latch of the tailgate mechanism can and will
need to be met in order for the control module can remain operational. In other words, this entire logic is dependent on
an integral "Interlock system" will determine whether the module will function as designed. If something is out of kilter
by some varying degree by either positioning, travel or an interlock switch so that the module will remain functioning;
that is if the module is at least passing initial testing. The second module for sure is working as designed BUT it is
reliant on all other simplistic means such as a tailgate latch or perhaps at least one other mechanism that may still yet
to be discovered. I can think of other means where an interlock system would be used, such as for safety consideration,
such as for child proofing and or to prevent major damages to equipment OR just major failures that can cost an owner
a huge fortune but in this case, it is something that is burdening the repair person and the owner just way too much!!
Just in an instance of Ivan having to burn through 8 hours and the second repair person, God only knows how much
time that he has into this repair is way out there in left field!
Now Ivan, your married to that one lol. Now i know not to buy envoy!! Haha, it's nice to have Keith to the rescue!! Great video Ivan!
I'm with kong I would build a relay set The owner would just have to remember not to slam the tail gate closed with out lowering the rear glass
Only reason to open a 20yr old sunroof is to flood the vehicle next storm or car wash. Used to have simple end switches & relays to run this stuff nowadays the engineers have gone totally Rube Goldberg
It isnt a sunroff. All the back below the midgate with window up is drainable & waterproof as a truck bed .
Maybe that junkyard module is bad and has the same common problem. That's a reverse polarity circuit and rests at ground, when either relay is energized reverses polarity to open and close, check grounds.
Great job!!!!
Hey Ivan Keith is still the guru and you are the student great job LOL