Borg had victory “ according to losses on both sides “. Species 8572 lost like 30 ships then went home. I really wouldn’t even say they lost. I’d say they said screw it.
Lore Reloaded I would also add, are we sure the Borg even got the technology for the missiles? Species 8472 only left AFTER voyager destroyed 14 of their ships while in their realm. When voyager returned 7of9 said, “ ive regained contact with the collective” hesitated and said... “ all remaining 8472 ships are leaving our galaxy, we have won the war “. Sounds to me species 8472 called back all their ships after voyagers trip into fluidic space.. not too sure the Borg actually destroyed any 8472 ships without crashing into them.
Good analyses, but I'm wondering if the Borg ever acquired the info those nanotechnology-equipped torpedoes the crew of Voyager and Seven of Nine had created. If the Borg had then it would've been all too likely they would've resumed their campaign to assimilate Species 8472. Judging from later episodes, I'd conclude that the Borg never acquired that weapon. Fortunately for the Delta Quadrant the new torpedo caused Species 8472 to cease and desist with their invasion. Unlike the Borg, Species 8472 were more reasonable in the long run. Apparently their later interaction with Voyager's crew convinced them that the Borg were an exception versus the rule where species beyond fluidic space were concerned.
James Burke But once 7 or 9 was reconnected with the collective, everything she knows would have been shared amongst the Borg, and you can't even willingly hide information like that. I think it's more likely that the Borg still aspire to assimilate 8472. The weapon was exactly that, a weapon and not a means to assimilate. They still had ships conduct incursions into Fluidic space (Unimatrix Zero - 7 of 9's boyfriend reported to be in a scout ship patrolling Fluidic space) so their conflict was still ongoing.
headlesschicken6661 chaktoy told 7of9 he would give her and the Borg the technology after he dropped them off on a planet ( it never happened ). Why would you assume she gained that information on her own ?
Janeway did ask for a single representative, she even said: "you have done it before with Locutus". So it's not out of character for borg to use a single representative.
Intresting question what kind of crestuers would be so dangerous that species 8472 would create a weapon that just happened to also be the ultimate Borg cube buster?
Am i wrong on this but it seems to me species 8472 wasnt all that bad. They seemed as far as i can see from available information they was peaceful until the Borg invaded their space. They was isolationist yes but stayed in their space and didnt bother anyone. I feel they were merely operating in self-defense from their standpoint. Because of this along with Federation policy they could possibly reach a treaty agreement sometime in the future. Despite some bad mistakes Janeway made. As i said the plot was for Voyager to get home and Janeway was just doing what she felt she had to do to get back home as safely as possible.
Ken Jett it is not like that, the Undine were peaceful because they didn't know about the existence of our dimension, they thought they were the only sentient species. Also they firmly believe in the superiority of their race in comparison to the others, so they are not very interested in dealing with anyone.
riccardo medori how did you come to that conclusion that they didnt know they was others in the universe as advanced as they were. Nothing in Voyager gave us any information of that. Advanced as they were they had to know of other races (species). Also as i said they are isolationist to go into their teritory uninvited is a violation of their space. So they wasnt bothering anyone till the Borg invaded so they were operating in selfdefense. We did get a few signs that it may be possible for the Federation to build a treaty with them. Just saying there is the possibility the part of the Federation and the us as humans is the ability to negotiate peace among other species. Thats how the Federation came to be as humans became the mediators of the Galaxy. Just think back all the many episodes through the franchise where a Starfleet Captain served as a mediator. I like to think its the one thing Starfleet and the Federation does best.
Ken Jett they live in another dimension in which they are the only sentient species, they couldn't know other intelligent species before the Borg attack. And yes the Voyager has stopped the Undine from pursuing their infiltration but that was only because of the particular circumstances, the Undine is very xenophobic. The Federation may be good in diplomacy but it doesn't always work, federation diplomacy has failed with Romulans and Dominion, with Undine it will be even more difficult.
riccardo medori your missing the point the undine are very advanced they had the ability to leave their dimension you cant surely believe as advanced as they were to leave their dimension with the abiltry to blow up whole planets they didnt know about other species. That thinking doesnt make sense. If they in there mind the only species why would they create such power to destroy or defend. Of course they new other species existed but until their space was invaded they kepted to themselves.
Species 8472 believed their species to be superior to others. As soon as they found out about our universe they immediately tried to "purge our galaxy." I strongly suspect the only reason they were "peaceful" was because they had already killed every other species in their universe.
I believe prior to encountering Voyager, the Borg looked back to one race they encountered before that held a key to victory against Species 8472. It was Species 5618 or Humans. Hence the second Battle of Sector 001.
A bit of trivia, the original Borg drone outfit for Jeri Ryan almost killed her. In the scene where she first appeared, as a independent drone liaison, and stepped out of her alcove, Jeri Ryan turned her head to address one of the other actors and promptly fainted in full costume. Turns out the neck cuff of her Drone getup cut off blood flow through her carotid artery whenever she turned her head, and if a crewman hadn't immediately put her head back to a safe position she would have died or suffered severe brain damage due to lack of blood flow to the brain. And then once she got into her catsuit outfit Jeri Ryan lamented in an interview that she was never eating anything but salad ever again. Speaking of, what was the medical function of Seven of Nine's uniform? besides causing localised high blood pressure in surrounding crewmen (and viewers*), and what medical needs required high heels (Borg implants affected her posture?) and a corset with push up cups? *Voyager was available on video tape way before being screened on my local network, and I got the tape of her character introduction as a crewmember about a week after it was released at the video store. The revelation scene of her in her slinky new outfit was distorted and had tape faults from being held on pause for way too long… It was a primitive time, before internet porn.
An Undine/8472 ship would annihilate a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship with one shot. An Undine/8472 being could infect multiple Jem'Hadar with their flesh eating cells.
While I do think the Undine are more powerful and would have a huge head start, the Dominion are much more unscrupulous than the Federation and would be more willing to do whatever it takes to develop the right weapons, defences and tactics to fight the Undine. Then again, if the Undine really wanted to, they could just go around popping planets like bubbles... The Undine can also attack anywhere at any time, since they are from Fluidic space they could open portals wherever they need to be. They're also the superior shape-changers and are immeasurably powerful telepaths to boot. Still gonna give it to the Undine, though, but don't take the Dominion too lightly, they're still strong as hell and are more willing to permit abhorrent tactics and even sacrifice their own population if it dealt a major blow to their enemies.
Devore preferring to 8472 at the Pinnacle of biological evolution is a good insight into the Borg perspective if you will. After all they already believe that Perfection is not only knowable, but achievable. One non-sequitur deserves another. Also I think the word you're looking for with seven of nine is proxy. It's very similar to the function that Locutus was created to serve.
By definition, Evolution has no end goal - nor even an attempt to get to any pinnacle. It's just funny for them to use the term inaccurately. It's also interesting how borg have changed.. They wanted to bring perfection to the races at wolf 359 .. Order to Chaos.. Now they're in search of it. I did get their meaning, still fun to call them out on it.
Lore Reloaded Cyborg and many ways can adapt to changing situations. They however became inflexible when they became a collective. They lost the ability to innovate. Anything new they would acquire would be acquired through assimilation and not research.
+Lore Reloaded The borg wants to bring perfection to the universe because they see all others as less perfect than them, more chaotic than the borg. But that doesn't mean the borg isn't searching and growing themselves. that's the whole reason why they are assimilating everything they see. The more borg assimilates the more perfect they become.
TentaclePentacle I understand their motives that wasn't really what I was arguing. I was merely arguing that they were pursuing a futile cause. Perfection is impossible because it is unknowable.
The episode does a pretty good job of explaining why they used 7 of 9 to communicate between the Borg and Voyager. Using her would make communication more efficient since she was linked directly to the collective and the Voyager crew could communicate in a way they were accustomed to - person to person...not person to collective. It's really not confusing at all if you know much about Star Trek and pay attention.
Pity this leaves out the episode of species 8472 when they are working on simulating Star Fleet personal some of their officers and a Gardener that maintained the plants at Star Fleet Academy. They make a station and have a simulated version of Star Fleet Head Quarters. Captain Janway and her crew come in and later when Chico-ta gets found out and captured, in the end voyager and species 8472 work on a peaceful solution. Species 8472 became the galaxies best role players. Just a few injections to help them keep this human form and they were off!
The problem with this is, its arguable whether or not Janeway actually gave the Borg the nano technology. Seven of nine did have access to it, but to what extent. Did the doctor actually give her the tech specs? they don't really say . Seven also communicated with the Borg, but did she relay the tech in the short time she had communication with the Borg--if she even had the knowledge to give. Also, the nano technology developed by Voyager was not to assimilate it was to destroy, so it couldn't have been used to assimilate Species 8472. Later on when Voyager meets up with Species 8472, they don't seem to be angry or vengeful. If the Borg were assimilating or killing off Species 8472, I doubt they would have been so nice to Voyager or the people on earth--considering Species 8472 had spies on earth. Species 8472 could have beaten the Federation if they wanted to, but they clearly didn't. Voyager, the tv show, also end with the Borg being very similar to how they have always been. One would assume that if the Borg assimilated Species 8472 they would look radically different to reflect the acquisition of the highly advance bio tech Species 8472 had. More likely Janeway's plan worked. The destruction of several Bio Ships was enough to make Species 8472 reconsider its invasion of our galaxy. Janeway then gave Species 8472 the nano tech, which they can use to create a defense against the Borg.
0:25 Not IRL, but it's clear that despite how how it works in reality, it's clear that evolution in Star Trek works by improving life to some sort of end goal.
If Species 8472 invaded the Alpha/Beta quadrant, how would those forces have fared? As I understand despite the brute force nature of the Borg, there was no way for them to adapt because they couldn't assimilate any of the Undine or their technology. Voyager alone with 1 encounter was able to. Just imagine if that kind of knowledge was shared amongst the Klingons and Romulans in the event of a mass invasion by Species 8472 onto the Alpha and Beta quadrant powers.
I don't think 8472 could have destroyed the Alpha Quadrant.. Nano probes were first introduced from the federation - not the borg. So they had the technology to destroy them - with out the borg.
Lore Reloaded But the initial onslaught would be devistating. How quickly the Alpha/Beta quadrant powers would counter attack depends on how quickly they could get detailed scans like they did with Voyager. An 8472 win lies exclusively on how massive, swift, and wide spread their invasion would be...somerhing they are clearly capable of. Makes me wonder if they were holding back a bit when they started with the Borg. But if anything the Borg had over the response time is the fact that once they learned of a countermeasure, it could be implemented fleet wide within minutes, hours at most. Building new weapons, plus a delivery system that is compatible with various ship designs, implementing them fleet wide, then mobilize a counter offensive...could take months at best. Having the Borg work with an Alpha quadrant power to combat the Undine invasion was literally the perfect solution.
In Star Trek Online, the first military strike of the Undine on the Beta quadrant was primarily aimed at Earth and Q'onos, resulting in all of the primary defences of Earth and Q'onos being absolutely annihilated, which prompted the in-game revamp of Earth Space Dock(since the original was obliterated by the Undine). The Undine were about to devastate Q'onos when reinforcements arrived and their planet killer ship was kamikazi killed.(A Planet Killer is an immense Undine vessel which can destroy planets without having to combine power sources with other ships or needing to recharge) The Undine only stop attacking at the start of the Delta Rising arc(which was right afterwards) where we convince them that the real threat is the Iconians and that to them, the Undine are also weak, and thus they will perish just like everyone else.
ah so something like this has already been covered in STO. I haven't played in a long long time. But I was referencing a first contact situation. STO takes place post Voyager's return so Alpha and Beta quadrant powers should have easy access to that intel. But without prior contact with 8427, I wonder how well they would have fared a full scale invasion.
Don Won the problem with the Borg was they couldn't adapt to something they never assimilated before. They lack an ingenuity. That was even brought up. Nanoprobes were used by voyager. That doesn't mean other species couldn't find a way to fight 8472 without Nanoprobes
I always wondered, how did the Borg learn of the fluidic space, considering, that it is a whole nother dimension. Did they assimilate a wandering gekli or what?
the same way they made omega - chucking collective thought into a single theory or thought or memory or accidental all together... advanced transwarp test gone wrong?
Seems to me that the Borg would've assimilated a species that already had knowledge of this fluidic space, as such that knowledge became known to the collective.
When the Borg say the pinnacle of life they could mean the best they have ever encountered, also Species 8472, not only defeated nanites, but also other biological lifeforms, it's easy to see why they valued them so much, also I guess there could be an end-point in evolution where you are able to deal with any eventuality, which is what evolution is all about adapting to change.
Then they are using the term inaccurately ;) Evolution, by definition, is adaptation over time based on pressures. The adaptation can be good, or it can be bad. It has no end goal and no definitive attempt to improve.
Not really, again expectation is beholden to the user, if the Borg value those traits above all else, then to them that's the pinnacle of evolution, remember they main motto is about being perfect and adapting, the Species 8472 gave them the potential ability to adapt to all eventualities biologically, perfection in their eyes(or whatever, lens, maybe?). Does it have no end goal? Seems rather nihilistic, which nature hasn't proven to be, considering that evolution is normally in the pursuit of survival and continuation of said species, so if a species that has the ability to adapt to all things as the Borg believed in species 8472, you could argue that's the pinnacle of evolution.
+Lore Reloaded The Q evolved to be the most powerful beings in the multiverse. When you evolve to a point where there are no pressures to overcome anymore, that's when you stop evoloving. The Q is the pinnacle of evolution.
TentaclePentacle that is quite possible however i sense the Q had a fear of the Borg. Remember what Q said about them when he force introduced the Federation to them, i sensed fear in the statement.
+Ken Jett The Q doesn't fear the borg, the Q just doesn't want to stir up the borg, because the borg doesn't' give up. The borg is more like an annoying bug that won't go away.
Yeah perfection is not really what 8472 are. But I can see why the Borg would be so bent on assimilating them. The organic part of the Borg is their weakest part. We have seen bio weapons used against the Borg and drones regaining their individuality through interacting with other organics. So it's quite logical that the Borg would like to add new bio tech to the collective.
why was Species 8472 running around naked!?! When they are so advanced. They did not even look like they carried weapons. Just slashed, Which of course worked. But you think an such an advance species would have to back up. Just in case.
@1:53 And that one fact is what has always bugged me about the episode of Voyager where one of them was apparently being hunted by the Hirogen, they did nothing to explain how in the world the Hirogen got the upper hand on a vessel with that sort of tech. I actually laughed when I first saw that episode air.
Well if that individual was left behind you have to wonder why. Chances are once the Borg had the technology to actually fight 8372 it’s ship was damaged and was left behind when the rest escaped back to fluidic space. So it probably wasn’t the Hirogen that damaged the ship but the Borg. And since it’s not in fluidic space it probably can’t repair (regenerate?) the ship.
It was the from the ship that the Borg ran into to save voyager. The episode replays that clip when Tuvok speaks to the Undine telepathically. They can survive in the vacuum of outer space without any technology. So it probably just floated around for a time until the hirogen found it.
the writers admitted the BORG casualty numbers were actually in the 10's of billions of DRONES or more and THOUSANDS of SHIPS up to or more than 25 planets
Considering this it does not seems like a Victory for the Borg.Even if Species 8472 has lost 30 Ships ist like pissing into the Ocean compared to the losses of the Borg.A bit more of that and the Collective would be done.
species 8472 was my fav voyager topic. i'm mostly just star trek tng and original fan. are there any other episodes of anything featuring this species?
Captain Janeway: Helping Delay the Inevitable by Being Both the Saviour and Destroyer of Borg. She really got around. There's an idea for a theory. WHAT would have happened to the Delta/Alpha quadrants if Species 8472 had succeeded in defeating the Borg. Would they have left afterwards, or gone onwards to destroy everything in sight?
Per the Episode Scorpion - it's stated they wanted to now destroy the alpha quadrant. I don't think they would have been succesful. I apologize I haven't gotten your video up.. Soon! I've never had a succesful channel before so still playing it by ear.. X_x
I wonder if better name should have been given than species 8472. Like say something epic like Solusians (at least for me) for example (I came up with this name). Any ideas?
January had only one option. they developed nanotechnology to destroy 8473 but you had no weapon against the Borg she had no option no leverage and nothing I would expect her to do what she did as a captain to save her crew
“Pinnacle”? Or for god sakes the BORG were being general for the sake of dealing with the humans. Would you prefer? “The Collective has never encountered a species as evolved to the point of their near-perfection. We have analyzed all available data and determined the risk is acceptable” -said in Collective voice.
to think if voyager didn't have a freak accident and ended up in the delta quadrant or was destroyed at any point before this, the borg would've been wiped out. and possibly the whole galaxy unless a substitute for the borg nanobot weapon could be made
Currently on a run through of voyager.... and it occurs to me how useless harry is as an officer. I reference the time his refusing to follow orders and not report the big scary fucking alien thing moving towards him, and then even when the drones are running away.... says nothing. first that anyone knows there is a danger is that kes's diana skills "save the day"... cant help think how first contact between the undine/8472 would have gone without voyager looking complicit with the borg... i used to feel sorry for harry being ernsign all the way through... but he fucks up way way too much to go anywhere. think of it... 8472s beef was with the borg... voyager (federation) helped the borg find a way to resist them... other episodes like the dauntless one and the 8472 starfleet recreation show that their beef was with the borg... the borg are around because of harry... he started the whole mis understanding with 8472 by being a useless... ensign.
Could Seven have been an avatar, sort of like a mouthpiece for the collective rather than an individual? It's also possible she was modified to have an uncommon degree of independent thought, a quasi-queen, to better handle the process and the eventual attempted backstabbing. Well, that's me.
Sure, but her and the queen are anomalies in comparison. The Borg always talked with one voice because the many was perfection - an individual less than that. It's a walking contradiction.. Or they're wrong about the many being perfection..either/or.
I always looked at the Collective hive mind as being essentially a big computer system with different programs and such and the drones are basically subroutines of all those programs(they are all in groups based on their 'program' function with each drone in the group having specific tasks) - the Borg Queen is essentially like the operating system of the Collective to help direct and manage all the other programs. Seven would essentially be a special program specifically for the task of coordinating with the Voyager crew so it makes sense that everything would be done through her. Seven and the Queen are not individuals at all, it's like saying when you interact with a program on your computer that you're not interacting with the computer itself but only that one program you are focusing on right then exists and is entirely separate from the rest of the computer systems. I hope that conveys what I'm trying to say properly, for something that's a really simple concept it's very hard to come up with a simple explanation or metaphor for it, lol.
This leads interest question why in Star Trek voyager Here and After no talk about Special 8472 when would aim to destory all life in Galaxy. Only thoeries come up is either Borg more luckly or Special 8472 much easily to be defeat.
Special 8472 more willing look for peace between Special 8472 and Federation. That was Voyager into the flesh. However my thoery is that Chakotay from did Jameway should done before and after beat Specail 8472 from massive alliance race beat them back that my thoery.
in real life, lol Borg unlikely not able to adapt... When the Borg sphere showed up game was over.. Yet 8472 living in their own space, and who knows who else is there..
Species 8472 have the right idea of how to interract with the Borg - hit them in the face repeatedly and with great vigor, while keeping all your toys to yourself.
One caviar to you comments in the beginning of born 8472 ships… a cube could take out a bioship if it was willing to kamikaze directly into the bioship, I would assume even a sphere could achieve the same result given its power generating capabilities including it slipstream drive
7 never made sure the collective got the data on how to modify the nanoprobes the borg never did however 8472 retreated largly due to the fear of the federation whom they didn't understand
in scorpion part 2 it states the data was incomplete only the Doctor has the full specs it was part of Janeway's (or more accurately Chakotay's as he never trusted the Borg) insurance and is further stated when 8472 are reintroduced in later episode In the Flesh (the fake Starfleet Academy) clearly stated by fake Boothby that only the Federation were considered a threat to 8472 due to federation (voyager) having the only nanoprobe warheads
the file she sends is deliberately incomplete (Chakotay made sure that part of the data was missing and only the Doctor has complete record this is also why in the Episode In the flesh only the doctor can make new warheads as they prepare for a potential battle) and the reason 8472 backed off is explained in episode "in the flesh" they backed off as they wrongly assumed Starfleet were planning an invasion and that the nanoprobe warheads were a standard federation weapon (fake boothby)
This is another example why Janeway was the biggest hypocrite of them all and didn't deserve to keep wearing that uniform even less promoted after they got back. Excuse me but is there some part of the contract when you join SF that says "you will be going out to explore the VAST unexplored universe filled with unimaginable forces and dangers... But no harm will ever come to you, you will always be able to talk to earth at the flip of a switch, and 3-4 week trip away from Earth at any moment (unless plot calls for it and make it 3-4 days with the PLOT DRIVE), and you will only explore the Alpha quadrant". If the universe should happen to void any of this conditions and you start feeling uncomfortable and home sick on your powerful city size starship then your captain has all the right to do WTF she wants to get you back "exploring" the A Q asap prime directive be dammed, if she makes a deal with an evil enemy that has killed billions, than its OK if this shaves 2 years of your trip. And if you're part of the caps possy she can even go back in time to save your ass because death while performing your duty only counts if u die in the A Q. " I imagine that hypothetical SF contract was only in Janeways hypocritical head, because when everyone else was cought trying to do anything possible to get home that didn't fit her moral code at the moment was a terrible monster that needed to be tortured and executed right!
Voyager Borg are morons. Do bare in mind though that Voyager Borg at least started putting out serious war-time vessels, such as the Sphere, Tactical Cube and Unimatrix Command Vessel. Regular Borg Cubes are actually scout, exploration and assimilation vessels.
When I saw the Borg killing aliens on Voyager, I was like "Awesome. Janeway could make an alliance with them and end the Borg scourge." Badda-boom-badda-bing she allied with the Borg. WTF? My friend who was watching the show with me said: "Remember what you said, better the devil you know." I told him that the Borg probably started it. I guess Star Trek writers wanted infinite problems to keep stories going.
Borg had victory “ according to losses on both sides “. Species 8572 lost like 30 ships then went home. I really wouldn’t even say they lost. I’d say they said screw it.
They were scared by actually losing ships - but i agree, they could have pushed the fight and probably still one..
Lore Reloaded I would also add, are we sure the Borg even got the technology for the missiles? Species 8472 only left AFTER voyager destroyed 14 of their ships while in their realm. When voyager returned 7of9 said, “ ive regained contact with the collective” hesitated and said... “ all remaining 8472 ships are leaving our galaxy, we have won the war “. Sounds to me species 8472 called back all their ships after voyagers trip into fluidic space.. not too sure the Borg actually destroyed any 8472 ships without crashing into them.
Good analyses, but I'm wondering if the Borg ever acquired the info those nanotechnology-equipped torpedoes the crew of Voyager and Seven of Nine had created. If the Borg had then it would've been all too likely they would've resumed their campaign to assimilate Species 8472. Judging from later episodes, I'd conclude that the Borg never acquired that weapon. Fortunately for the Delta Quadrant the new torpedo caused Species 8472 to cease and desist with their invasion. Unlike the Borg, Species 8472 were more reasonable in the long run. Apparently their later interaction with Voyager's crew convinced them that the Borg were an exception versus the rule where species beyond fluidic space were concerned.
James Burke
But once 7 or 9 was reconnected with the collective, everything she knows would have been shared amongst the Borg, and you can't even willingly hide information like that. I think it's more likely that the Borg still aspire to assimilate 8472. The weapon was exactly that, a weapon and not a means to assimilate. They still had ships conduct incursions into Fluidic space (Unimatrix Zero - 7 of 9's boyfriend reported to be in a scout ship patrolling Fluidic space) so their conflict was still ongoing.
headlesschicken6661 chaktoy told 7of9 he would give her and the Borg the technology after he dropped them off on a planet ( it never happened ). Why would you assume she gained that information on her own ?
Janeway did ask for a single representative, she even said: "you have done it before with Locutus". So it's not out of character for borg to use a single representative.
It's out of character for the borg to have a single representative.. ;P
+Lore Reloaded
Locutus disagrees.
+TentaclePentacle He got his in the end so.. :p :)
+Alex Turlais
That's the whole reason why Locutus was created, it's to make human assimilation easier. The borg wanted humans to surrender.
Because the Borg were all about making this a comfortable process for the humans...they seemed really keen on that point :p
You got to imagine what Species 8472 had to fight in their dimension that led to the creation of such advanced weapons
Dalecks.
@@One-ct3xe so what? They invented stairs?
Or they've just been around a lot longer.
Intresting question what kind of crestuers would be so dangerous that species 8472 would create a weapon that just happened to also be the ultimate Borg cube buster?
Am i wrong on this but it seems to me species 8472 wasnt all that bad. They seemed as far as i can see from available information they was peaceful until the Borg invaded their space. They was isolationist yes but stayed in their space and didnt bother anyone. I feel they were merely operating in self-defense from their standpoint. Because of this along with Federation policy they could possibly reach a treaty agreement sometime in the future. Despite some bad mistakes Janeway made. As i said the plot was for Voyager to get home and Janeway was just doing what she felt she had to do to get back home as safely as possible.
Ken Jett it is not like that, the Undine were peaceful because they didn't know about the existence of our dimension, they thought they were the only sentient species. Also they firmly believe in the superiority of their race in comparison to the others, so they are not very interested in dealing with anyone.
riccardo medori how did you come to that conclusion that they didnt know they was others in the universe as advanced as they were. Nothing in Voyager gave us any information of that. Advanced as they were they had to know of other races (species). Also as i said they are isolationist to go into their teritory uninvited is a violation of their space. So they wasnt bothering anyone till the Borg invaded so they were operating in selfdefense. We did get a few signs that it may be possible for the Federation to build a treaty with them. Just saying there is the possibility the part of the Federation and the us as humans is the ability to negotiate peace among other species. Thats how the Federation came to be as humans became the mediators of the Galaxy. Just think back all the many episodes through the franchise where a Starfleet Captain served as a mediator. I like to think its the one thing Starfleet and the Federation does best.
Ken Jett they live in another dimension in which they are the only sentient species, they couldn't know other intelligent species before the Borg attack. And yes the Voyager has stopped the Undine from pursuing their infiltration but that was only because of the particular circumstances, the Undine is very xenophobic. The Federation may be good in diplomacy but it doesn't always work, federation diplomacy has failed with Romulans and Dominion, with Undine it will be even more difficult.
riccardo medori your missing the point the undine are very advanced they had the ability to leave their dimension you cant surely believe as advanced as they were to leave their dimension with the abiltry to blow up whole planets they didnt know about other species. That thinking doesnt make sense. If they in there mind the only species why would they create such power to destroy or defend. Of course they new other species existed but until their space was invaded they kepted to themselves.
Species 8472 believed their species to be superior to others. As soon as they found out about our universe they immediately tried to "purge our galaxy." I strongly suspect the only reason they were "peaceful" was because they had already killed every other species in their universe.
I believe prior to encountering Voyager, the Borg looked back to one race they encountered before that held a key to victory against Species 8472. It was Species 5618 or Humans. Hence the second Battle of Sector 001.
Anything that got Seven of Nine on screen was brilliant writing.
#sevenofninefolife
No boobgument from me.
I mean...not argutits here...
DAMNIT
Catsuit that saved Voyager.
A bit of trivia, the original Borg drone outfit for Jeri Ryan almost killed her. In the scene where she first appeared, as a independent drone liaison, and stepped out of her alcove, Jeri Ryan turned her head to address one of the other actors and promptly fainted in full costume. Turns out the neck cuff of her Drone getup cut off blood flow through her carotid artery whenever she turned her head, and if a crewman hadn't immediately put her head back to a safe position she would have died or suffered severe brain damage due to lack of blood flow to the brain. And then once she got into her catsuit outfit Jeri Ryan lamented in an interview that she was never eating anything but salad ever again.
Speaking of, what was the medical function of Seven of Nine's uniform? besides causing localised high blood pressure in surrounding crewmen (and viewers*), and what medical needs required high heels (Borg implants affected her posture?) and a corset with push up cups?
*Voyager was available on video tape way before being screened on my local network, and I got the tape of her character introduction as a crewmember about a week after it was released at the video store. The revelation scene of her in her slinky new outfit was distorted and had tape faults from being held on pause for way too long…
It was a primitive time, before internet porn.
Species 8472/Undine vs The Dominion. A new dream match.
something highly requested.
This would be interesting with the Jemhadar's liberal use of ramming tactics.
scarface1138 now that's a good match up.
An Undine/8472 ship would annihilate a Jem'Hadar Attack Ship with one shot. An Undine/8472 being could infect multiple Jem'Hadar with their flesh eating cells.
While I do think the Undine are more powerful and would have a huge head start, the Dominion are much more unscrupulous than the Federation and would be more willing to do whatever it takes to develop the right weapons, defences and tactics to fight the Undine. Then again, if the Undine really wanted to, they could just go around popping planets like bubbles...
The Undine can also attack anywhere at any time, since they are from Fluidic space they could open portals wherever they need to be. They're also the superior shape-changers and are immeasurably powerful telepaths to boot.
Still gonna give it to the Undine, though, but don't take the Dominion too lightly, they're still strong as hell and are more willing to permit abhorrent tactics and even sacrifice their own population if it dealt a major blow to their enemies.
Devore preferring to 8472 at the Pinnacle of biological evolution is a good insight into the Borg perspective if you will. After all they already believe that Perfection is not only knowable, but achievable. One non-sequitur deserves another. Also I think the word you're looking for with seven of nine is proxy. It's very similar to the function that Locutus was created to serve.
By definition, Evolution has no end goal - nor even an attempt to get to any pinnacle. It's just funny for them to use the term inaccurately. It's also interesting how borg have changed.. They wanted to bring perfection to the races at wolf 359 .. Order to Chaos.. Now they're in search of it. I did get their meaning, still fun to call them out on it.
Lore Reloaded Cyborg and many ways can adapt to changing situations. They however became inflexible when they became a collective. They lost the ability to innovate. Anything new they would acquire would be acquired through assimilation and not research.
+Lore Reloaded
The borg wants to bring perfection to the universe because they see all others as less perfect than them, more chaotic than the borg. But that doesn't mean the borg isn't searching and growing themselves. that's the whole reason why they are assimilating everything they see. The more borg assimilates the more perfect they become.
TentaclePentacle I understand their motives that wasn't really what I was arguing. I was merely arguing that they were pursuing a futile cause. Perfection is impossible because it is unknowable.
+Mike Vasquez
When you are Q you can create your own perfection.
The episode does a pretty good job of explaining why they used 7 of 9 to communicate between the Borg and Voyager. Using her would make communication more efficient since she was linked directly to the collective and the Voyager crew could communicate in a way they were accustomed to - person to person...not person to collective. It's really not confusing at all if you know much about Star Trek and pay attention.
Pity this leaves out the episode of species 8472 when they are working on simulating Star Fleet personal some of their officers and a Gardener that maintained the plants at Star Fleet Academy. They make a station and have a simulated version of Star Fleet Head Quarters. Captain Janway and her crew come in and later when Chico-ta gets found out and captured, in the end voyager and species 8472 work on a peaceful solution. Species 8472 became the galaxies best role players. Just a few injections to help them keep this human form and they were off!
The problem with this is, its arguable whether or not Janeway actually gave the Borg the nano technology. Seven of nine did have access to it, but to what extent. Did the doctor actually give her the tech specs? they don't really say . Seven also communicated with the Borg, but did she relay the tech in the short time she had communication with the Borg--if she even had the knowledge to give. Also, the nano technology developed by Voyager was not to assimilate it was to destroy, so it couldn't have been used to assimilate Species 8472.
Later on when Voyager meets up with Species 8472, they don't seem to be angry or vengeful. If the Borg were assimilating or killing off Species 8472, I doubt they would have been so nice to Voyager or the people on earth--considering Species 8472 had spies on earth. Species 8472 could have beaten the Federation if they wanted to, but they clearly didn't. Voyager, the tv show, also end with the Borg being very similar to how they have always been. One would assume that if the Borg assimilated Species 8472 they would look radically different to reflect the acquisition of the highly advance bio tech Species 8472 had.
More likely Janeway's plan worked. The destruction of several Bio Ships was enough to make Species 8472 reconsider its invasion of our galaxy. Janeway then gave Species 8472 the nano tech, which they can use to create a defense against the Borg.
0:25
Not IRL, but it's clear that despite how how it works in reality, it's clear that evolution in Star Trek works by improving life to some sort of end goal.
If Species 8472 invaded the Alpha/Beta quadrant, how would those forces have fared? As I understand despite the brute force nature of the Borg, there was no way for them to adapt because they couldn't assimilate any of the Undine or their technology. Voyager alone with 1 encounter was able to. Just imagine if that kind of knowledge was shared amongst the Klingons and Romulans in the event of a mass invasion by Species 8472 onto the Alpha and Beta quadrant powers.
I don't think 8472 could have destroyed the Alpha Quadrant.. Nano probes were first introduced from the federation - not the borg. So they had the technology to destroy them - with out the borg.
Lore Reloaded
But the initial onslaught would be devistating. How quickly the Alpha/Beta quadrant powers would counter attack depends on how quickly they could get detailed scans like they did with Voyager. An 8472 win lies exclusively on how massive, swift, and wide spread their invasion would be...somerhing they are clearly capable of. Makes me wonder if they were holding back a bit when they started with the Borg.
But if anything the Borg had over the response time is the fact that once they learned of a countermeasure, it could be implemented fleet wide within minutes, hours at most. Building new weapons, plus a delivery system that is compatible with various ship designs, implementing them fleet wide, then mobilize a counter offensive...could take months at best. Having the Borg work with an Alpha quadrant power to combat the Undine invasion was literally the perfect solution.
headlesschicken6661 probably would fare better since they a extensive combat experience because of the Dominion War
In Star Trek Online, the first military strike of the Undine on the Beta quadrant was primarily aimed at Earth and Q'onos, resulting in all of the primary defences of Earth and Q'onos being absolutely annihilated, which prompted the in-game revamp of Earth Space Dock(since the original was obliterated by the Undine). The Undine were about to devastate Q'onos when reinforcements arrived and their planet killer ship was kamikazi killed.(A Planet Killer is an immense Undine vessel which can destroy planets without having to combine power sources with other ships or needing to recharge)
The Undine only stop attacking at the start of the Delta Rising arc(which was right afterwards) where we convince them that the real threat is the Iconians and that to them, the Undine are also weak, and thus they will perish just like everyone else.
ah so something like this has already been covered in STO. I haven't played in a long long time. But I was referencing a first contact situation. STO takes place post Voyager's return so Alpha and Beta quadrant powers should have easy access to that intel. But without prior contact with 8427, I wonder how well they would have fared a full scale invasion.
Just shows why Janeway is best Star Trek Villian.
agreed
You totally forgot about Kahn.
It was either be complacent with the borg or have all other species annihilated by species 8472. It's called knowing how to pick your battles.
At 3:15, I think the word you are looking for is liaison. Maybe?
Janeway, destroyer of hope
Revan how so?
Don Won A lot of species were banking on species 8472 to win
Revan interesting. Without the borgs nanobots does species 8472 even stop with the Borg ? “ your galaxy will be purged “.
Don Won the problem with the Borg was they couldn't adapt to something they never assimilated before. They lack an ingenuity. That was even brought up. Nanoprobes were used by voyager. That doesn't mean other species couldn't find a way to fight 8472 without Nanoprobes
Revan not saying other species couldn’t. Just saying the nanoprobes were petty vital at the early stages.
I always wondered, how did the Borg learn of the fluidic space, considering, that it is a whole nother dimension. Did they assimilate a wandering gekli or what?
the same way they made omega - chucking collective thought into a single theory or thought or memory or accidental all together... advanced transwarp test gone wrong?
Seems to me that the Borg would've assimilated a species that already had knowledge of this fluidic space, as such that knowledge became known to the collective.
When the Borg say the pinnacle of life they could mean the best they have ever encountered, also Species 8472, not only defeated nanites, but also other biological lifeforms, it's easy to see why they valued them so much, also I guess there could be an end-point in evolution where you are able to deal with any eventuality, which is what evolution is all about adapting to change.
Then they are using the term inaccurately ;) Evolution, by definition, is adaptation over time based on pressures. The adaptation can be good, or it can be bad. It has no end goal and no definitive attempt to improve.
Not really, again expectation is beholden to the user, if the Borg value those traits above all else, then to them that's the pinnacle of evolution, remember they main motto is about being perfect and adapting, the Species 8472 gave them the potential ability to adapt to all eventualities biologically, perfection in their eyes(or whatever, lens, maybe?).
Does it have no end goal? Seems rather nihilistic, which nature hasn't proven to be, considering that evolution is normally in the pursuit of survival and continuation of said species, so if a species that has the ability to adapt to all things as the Borg believed in species 8472, you could argue that's the pinnacle of evolution.
+Lore Reloaded
The Q evolved to be the most powerful beings in the multiverse. When you evolve to a point where there are no pressures to overcome anymore, that's when you stop evoloving. The Q is the pinnacle of evolution.
TentaclePentacle that is quite possible however i sense the Q had a fear of the Borg. Remember what Q said about them when he force introduced the Federation to them, i sensed fear in the statement.
+Ken Jett
The Q doesn't fear the borg, the Q just doesn't want to stir up the borg, because the borg doesn't' give up. The borg is more like an annoying bug that won't go away.
Yeah perfection is not really what 8472 are. But I can see why the Borg would be so bent on assimilating them. The organic part of the Borg is their weakest part. We have seen bio weapons used against the Borg and drones regaining their individuality through interacting with other organics. So it's quite logical that the Borg would like to add new bio tech to the collective.
Yea, sucessfully assimilating Species 8472 would have large gains for them biologically.
why was Species 8472 running around naked!?! When they are so advanced. They did not even look like they carried weapons. Just slashed, Which of course worked. But you think an such an advance species would have to back up. Just in case.
@1:53 And that one fact is what has always bugged me about the episode of Voyager where one of them was apparently being hunted by the Hirogen, they did nothing to explain how in the world the Hirogen got the upper hand on a vessel with that sort of tech. I actually laughed when I first saw that episode air.
Well if that individual was left behind you have to wonder why.
Chances are once the Borg had the technology to actually fight 8372 it’s ship was damaged and was left behind when the rest escaped back to fluidic space.
So it probably wasn’t the Hirogen that damaged the ship but the Borg. And since it’s not in fluidic space it probably can’t repair (regenerate?) the ship.
It was the from the ship that the Borg ran into to save voyager. The episode replays that clip when Tuvok speaks to the Undine telepathically.
They can survive in the vacuum of outer space without any technology. So it probably just floated around for a time until the hirogen found it.
the writers admitted the
BORG casualty numbers were
actually in the 10's of
billions of DRONES or more
and THOUSANDS of SHIPS
up to or more than 25 planets
Considering this it does not seems like a Victory for the Borg.Even if Species 8472 has lost 30 Ships ist like pissing into the Ocean compared to the losses of the Borg.A bit more of that and the Collective would be done.
species 8472 was my fav voyager topic. i'm mostly just star trek tng and original fan. are there any other episodes of anything featuring this species?
there are a few and they are all good episodes, especially if your looking for 8472. my favorite one has to be "pyey"
Imagine Borg with Undine\Cyborg ships.
Captain Janeway: Helping Delay the Inevitable by Being Both the Saviour and Destroyer of Borg. She really got around. There's an idea for a theory. WHAT would have happened to the Delta/Alpha quadrants if Species 8472 had succeeded in defeating the Borg. Would they have left afterwards, or gone onwards to destroy everything in sight?
Per the Episode Scorpion - it's stated they wanted to now destroy the alpha quadrant. I don't think they would have been succesful. I apologize I haven't gotten your video up.. Soon! I've never had a succesful channel before so still playing it by ear.. X_x
I wonder if better name should have been given than species 8472. Like say something epic like Solusians (at least for me) for example (I came up with this name). Any ideas?
They are called Undine.
7 of 9 was a representative of the Borg. Because Janeway refused to have a neuron transmitter stuck to her. So she threaten to end the alliance.
January had only one option. they developed nanotechnology to destroy 8473 but you had no weapon against the Borg she had no option no leverage and nothing I would expect her to do what she did as a captain to save her crew
3:12 7 of 9 was nothing but *interface* between collective and Discovery.
Wasn't the eight planers and few million drones just the losses from sector 010? Imagine the greater numbers through the entire collective...
“Pinnacle”?
Or for god sakes the BORG were being general for the sake of dealing with the humans.
Would you prefer?
“The Collective has never encountered a species as evolved to the point of their near-perfection. We have analyzed all available data and determined the risk is acceptable” -said in Collective voice.
to think if voyager didn't have a freak accident and ended up in the delta quadrant or was destroyed at any point before this, the borg would've been wiped out. and possibly the whole galaxy unless a substitute for the borg nanobot weapon could be made
i know this might seem stupid but where is the discord link?
discord.gg/XXhFwvR - Also updated on the video.
thank you
Species 8472 seem to be the star trek copy of the Vorlon and shadows from b5 put into 1
Why would they ally with the Borg against the Undine instead of ally with the Undine against the Borg?
Currently on a run through of voyager.... and it occurs to me how useless harry is as an officer. I reference the time his refusing to follow orders and not report the big scary fucking alien thing moving towards him, and then even when the drones are running away.... says nothing. first that anyone knows there is a danger is that kes's diana skills "save the day"... cant help think how first contact between the undine/8472 would have gone without voyager looking complicit with the borg... i used to feel sorry for harry being ernsign all the way through... but he fucks up way way too much to go anywhere. think of it... 8472s beef was with the borg... voyager (federation) helped the borg find a way to resist them... other episodes like the dauntless one and the 8472 starfleet recreation show that their beef was with the borg... the borg are around because of harry... he started the whole mis understanding with 8472 by being a useless... ensign.
Could Seven have been an avatar, sort of like a mouthpiece for the collective rather than an individual? It's also possible she was modified to have an uncommon degree of independent thought, a quasi-queen, to better handle the process and the eventual attempted backstabbing. Well, that's me.
Sure, but her and the queen are anomalies in comparison. The Borg always talked with one voice because the many was perfection - an individual less than that. It's a walking contradiction.. Or they're wrong about the many being perfection..either/or.
I always looked at the Collective hive mind as being essentially a big computer system with different programs and such and the drones are basically subroutines of all those programs(they are all in groups based on their 'program' function with each drone in the group having specific tasks) - the Borg Queen is essentially like the operating system of the Collective to help direct and manage all the other programs.
Seven would essentially be a special program specifically for the task of coordinating with the Voyager crew so it makes sense that everything would be done through her. Seven and the Queen are not individuals at all, it's like saying when you interact with a program on your computer that you're not interacting with the computer itself but only that one program you are focusing on right then exists and is entirely separate from the rest of the computer systems.
I hope that conveys what I'm trying to say properly, for something that's a really simple concept it's very hard to come up with a simple explanation or metaphor for it, lol.
Jon Grey that is a good analogy a bit over my head lol I've never been much good with tech.
Can you please do one on the Orion syndicate?
1:10 "Unfortunately, Borg couldn't assimilate/defeat them"... What a hell are you talking about? Unfortunately?
This leads interest question why in Star Trek voyager Here and After no talk about Special 8472 when would aim to destory all life in Galaxy. Only thoeries come up is either Borg more luckly or Special 8472 much easily to be defeat.
I think they have one other episode where species 8472 determines humanity to be awesome? I could be wrong..
Special 8472 more willing look for peace between Special 8472 and Federation. That was Voyager into the flesh. However my thoery is that Chakotay from did Jameway should done before and after beat Specail 8472 from massive alliance race beat them back that my thoery.
3:20 The word is liaison
Happy New Year to all! Make 2018 a great year. Keep a smile on your face and hope in your heart.
BOR(IN)G were asking for trouble and received it in ABUNDANCE......... I`d call it instant karma.... ;-)
the borg being the borg would....... abuse the new tech and keep on trucking...
in real life, lol
Borg unlikely not able to adapt...
When the Borg sphere showed up game was over..
Yet 8472 living in their own space, and who knows who else is there..
Thanks for vidz.
I always aim to impress..
So Zerg, Tyranids, xenomorph, thingy.
indeed.
Biology has a constant pinnacle.
As of today we are the pinnacle of current human evolution and we will continue to advance
She was a transfer, not an emissary.
2018 prediction: Lore Reloaded breaks 30k subs.
+William Cornelius one can only hope :)
Happy new year. See you next time on the next video
+AJZulu happy New year !
Happy New Year's Day to you also.
And during that war the Borg sent one cube to attack Earth and travel to the past with a Borg Queen. So Voyager wasn't the Borg's first choice.
Or was she? Though Voyager could be a plan B - for sure.
All you needed was a Tesla Frequency destruction machine no more fluid 8472 species goodnight , everything has a weakness.....
I always assumed 7 of 9 was a speaker, like Locutus.
agreed. I just don't find an avatar to be .. consistent with what we learn about the borg.. I could be wrong.
AncientSubHunter is that you?
So we are in the bone universe and 8473 was in the lymph node universe.
Who will be in the 7-11, 8 hour old, hot dog universe.
Species 8472 have the right idea of how to interract with the Borg - hit them in the face repeatedly and with great vigor, while keeping all your toys to yourself.
Undine - Yea or Nay?
was good to finally have a non borg name.... but it doesnt feel right
Can some one direct me to what episode this was with the borg and 8472
The end of season 3 and the beginning of season 4
Scorpion, Scorpion PT2 and In the Flesh.
It's too bad that you repeated scenes from Star Trek: Voyager, rather than keeping them in sync with what you were telling us. Still, good video.
Price of doing business
I dont recall Borg actually acquiring that technology, maybe you made a mistake.
+Suzumiya Haruhi Yea rewatch scorpion.
Pick your poison, Species 8572 or Borg. Choose.
One caviar to you comments in the beginning of born 8472 ships… a cube could take out a bioship if it was willing to kamikaze directly into the bioship, I would assume even a sphere could achieve the same result given its power generating capabilities including it slipstream drive
7 never made sure the collective got the data on how to modify the nanoprobes the borg never did however 8472 retreated largly due to the fear of the federation whom they didn't understand
+Jon south In scorpion..she sends the info to the collective
in scorpion part 2 it states the data was incomplete only the Doctor has the full specs it was part of Janeway's (or more accurately Chakotay's as he never trusted the Borg) insurance and is further stated when 8472 are reintroduced in later episode In the Flesh (the fake Starfleet Academy) clearly stated by fake Boothby that only the Federation were considered a threat to 8472 due to federation (voyager) having the only nanoprobe warheads
hence why the Borg never reinvaded fluidic space
+Jon south It shows her sending all the data..or it would make no sense for the Species 8472 to back off
the file she sends is deliberately incomplete (Chakotay made sure that part of the data was missing and only the Doctor has complete record this is also why in the Episode In the flesh only the doctor can make new warheads as they prepare for a potential battle) and the reason 8472 backed off is explained in episode "in the flesh" they backed off as they wrongly assumed Starfleet were planning an invasion and that the nanoprobe warheads were a standard federation weapon (fake boothby)
Haven't seen you since last year
+samaravadi3 Yea..decided to come back to RUclips after I stopped last year..
This is another example why Janeway was the biggest hypocrite of them all and didn't deserve to keep wearing that uniform even less promoted after they got back.
Excuse me but is there some part of the contract when you join SF that says "you will be going out to explore the VAST unexplored universe filled with unimaginable forces and dangers... But no harm will ever come to you, you will always be able to talk to earth at the flip of a switch, and 3-4 week trip away from Earth at any moment (unless plot calls for it and make it 3-4 days with the PLOT DRIVE), and you will only explore the Alpha quadrant". If the universe should happen to void any of this conditions and you start feeling uncomfortable and home sick on your powerful city size starship then your captain has all the right to do WTF she wants to get you back "exploring" the A Q asap prime directive be dammed, if she makes a deal with an evil enemy that has killed billions, than its OK if this shaves 2 years of your trip. And if you're part of the caps possy she can even go back in time to save your ass because death while performing your duty only counts if u die in the A Q. "
I imagine that hypothetical SF contract was only in Janeways hypocritical head, because when everyone else was cought trying to do anything possible to get home that didn't fit her moral code at the moment was a terrible monster that needed to be tortured and executed right!
Dominion >> Borg(Janeway era)
Voyager Borg are morons. Do bare in mind though that Voyager Borg at least started putting out serious war-time vessels, such as the Sphere, Tactical Cube and Unimatrix Command Vessel. Regular Borg Cubes are actually scout, exploration and assimilation vessels.
"Liaison"? ;-)
Ahh, Geez, really. This is your life... ?
BUT THIS VIDEO DIDN'T WIN THE POLL, YOU'VE RUINED MY LIFE
This video actually isn't apart of the poll.. did this video in preparation for the poll video ;) Still time for your video to win!
Nope, you've SOILED IT. S O I L E D I T
When I saw the Borg killing aliens on Voyager, I was like "Awesome. Janeway could make an alliance with them and end the Borg scourge." Badda-boom-badda-bing she allied with the Borg. WTF? My friend who was watching the show with me said: "Remember what you said, better the devil you know." I told him that the Borg probably started it. I guess Star Trek writers wanted infinite problems to keep stories going.
First
+Alexander Wiese #hero