I just watched this. At the end I stood up and applauded! Thank you for the deep dive and bringing us along. I think your test jig was awesome. Even before you said anything I thought, “ that must be some sort of contraption to test them!” I was right! This is why I watch your videos and buy your stuff! It is the combination of knowledge and sarcasm that I appreciate the most! You really do need to do a video about materials that you use. I was going to ask you what type of epoxy do you use or do you suggest? Thanks Steve!
I like a lot of tension playing extreme metal so I built a baritone flying V with 28.5" scale, in A#, 13-72 strings. I used dense mahogany in the neck & reinforced it with two 1/2" round graphite rods. That's about the limit of what you can fit in a 6-string neck, and it's extremely strong & stable and sounds amazing. Absolutely love it.
Thanks Alex. It might have not been a test up to a higher educational standards...but it was just enough to help me make some decisions. I appreciate the comment.
Do the "bow" test on the different neck woods we use. Uniform cut outs. As close to the same quarter sawn angle as possible. Same length. I'd pay to see that one.
Wow.... This is not insanity... This is Excitement!.... Nice tests! By the way, i didn't find any carbon fiber truss rods... But they are quite easy to make by itself...
That is a good idea Amit. I think that I will put this video into a "Deep Dive" playlist. The only problem...is I really didn't set out to make a deep dive video. It was going to be a quick video on the strengths of different neck reinforcement methods...then I got obsessive! That is so unlike me to get obsessive. ;-)
Modulus of elasticity of titanium is about 140GN/m^2. Steel is about 200-210GN/m^2, so steel is considerably stiffer then titanium, but has a weight penalty. Unidirectional CF has an even greater MoE than steel is is much lighter than any of the metal alternatives. CF is the preferred choice every time.
Great comparison and very informative. Technically, you are measuring load at a specific beam deflection. Since the cross-sections of the beams you are testing differ from sample to sample, it’s not quite a pure analysis of the strength of each material as much as it is a comparison of the beams with the predominant factor being the difference in strength of each material plus the geometric effects. One nit is that you are measuring load, which is in pounds and this is not a pressure but rather a force. Hope this helps and thanks for your analysis.
An equal length and geometry of the cross section is important when comparing the stifness. The titanium has a different dimensions, according to it´s cross section, than the maple and carbon rods.
I have spent lots of time in Spanish luthier shops - never seen maple put in a neck. I have seen ebony of various dimension and configurations. I've only been in dozens of the top luthier shops (Contreras, Ramirez, Conde, Marin, Belido, Pardo, Ferrer,... etc.) but never seen maple used.
I had Carbon reinforcements rods installed in one of my guitars. The biggest diference i noticed was how fast the guitar responded to the pick attack. We figured the neck deflected way less when playing. So we did a little experiment, we got a good guitar without neck reinforcements (an Ibanez RG Prestige) and mine. We fixed both guitars to the table with a dial indicator at the tip of the headstock. As we applied pressure to the string we would se the indicator moving as the neck bowed. Now, when we tried that with the guitar with reinforcements, we noticed that the neck wouldn't move even 1/3 of what the ibanez neck did. And yes the ibanez was in perfect playing condition... So, if you think about installing those in an old guitar just have that in mind. Your neck will be stiffer and will feel stiffer, and the note attack will be much faster, if you believe you will like that, go for it (I loved it). "Tonewise" that's the difference i noticed the faster response of the instrument, either you played louder or quieter. Maybe a litttle bit more of the 1/2 harmonic nodes (but just maybe). As far as eq goes i didn't notice anything.
I use carbon fiber in all my necks. Poplar (tuliptree) actually makes a great sounding neck. I’ve used it, and that’s what Danelectro used back in the day.
I've learned a ton watching and listening. These videos help boost my confidence to get out there and take on the next step in building my first guitar. Thank you, and keep posting!
The only place I have found them is to order directly from Tatsuta of Japan..They are not cheap...but the quality is very high! tatsuta.theshop.jp/items/31059269
Excellent look at the rods in isolation, but there are other questions. What about the glue? Ultimately if the glue is not at least as strong as that carbon fiber it will let the whole thing down. So we need to run tests with the reinforcements glued in place. The other thing to consider is, don't we need to measure the actual strength of the whole neck, with and without the various materials glued in place? That 1/4 by 1/4 inch bit of carbon fiber is 10 times the strength of the maple but that is only a small portion of the whole neck. How much stiffer is a neck with a carbon fiber rod in it vs no rod - it's not going to be 10 times. Also, wood moves - humidity changes cause wood to shrink and swell plus the constant pressure of the strings may cause it to bow over time (yes that's what the carbon fiber is there to resist), since the force is changing due to humidity changes we need an adjustable rod in the neck.
Nice vid! Love the academic approach! Knowledge from arrow nerding says that the outermost layers provide the most strength against flexing. Inner layers do add strength but not as much. Carbon fibre tubes are also the stiffest material availabe (in reasonable price range at least) for the weight. (compared to wood, heat treated bamboo, fibreglass, aluminum) Basically never takes a set, breaks before it does. You seem to have built an inverted version of an arrow spine tester! (where they hang a weight and measure the deflection) So a thing I thought of is depending of where you place the carbon you would get greater resistance to string follow. Putting it as a skunk stripe is would be the strongest position, given the glue holds and it doesn't pop out. Two in line sounds better for resistance to twisting of course.
Thanks Leif. I'm glad you found the video...and appreciate the approach. I'm not the smartest guy in the world...but I am fairly pragmatic...and like feeling like I do things for a good reason. At one point I stayed away from CF because everyone was doing it...that is when I went to titanium. Sometimes people do things because they are cheap...or easy...but not always because they are better. I found that CF is relatively cheap...easy to install...and in my tests it proved to be a better solution. That was the knowledge that I was after.
Maximum Guitar Works what about steel rods and steel tube rods? Old Harmony guitars had steel reinforced necks Martins had steel Tbar rods later martin had steel tube rods also before rods Martin used Ebony in the necks. Do video on rods I mentioned.
Wish I would have found this video before I fixed the truss rod and redid the fret board on my 1988 Casio PG 380 (high end synth strat) maple neck, ebony board. I replaced the route over the rod with the solid carbon fiber. The channel is curved. I curved the CF to fit the rod and channel shape before "gluing" it in leaving some sticking out. Had fun trying to rasp file down to the wood. Next time I will use the hollow CF on each side and MAYBE run wires to the neck and head stock ? (guitar has its own power) Now about the greatest stress or tension. Pull is from the nut/head stock (or end) to heel (if a bolt on) String up, put an indicator on the head stock. Loosen all the strings and it drops A LOT. This may not apply to a thru neck as much ? So with a floyd rose your neck is waving to the audience. So pulling in the middle seems to be only half the test. A horizontal pull end to end maybe ?
Great job Steve! You saved me allot of work because this is the stuff that keeps me up at night!! It would have been interesting to have tested the .200 x.250 rods on the side (flat sawn'ish laminates) to see what the difference is in strength.......
Good video to explain this topic! Just soon getting my Ibanez RG that has titanium rods innit and 5 piece neck. I particularly hope that give some stability with climate changes throughout the seasons. Where I live there is roughly around 60°C (140)°F range in temperature between summer and winter for winters been usually very low humidity and summers high (as that effects tough vary from guitar to another). Many of my guitars have had issues usually in summers where they lose some playability and needs to be adjusted as I use rather low action in general.
I've always been a little skeptical of the need for more reinforcement than the truss rod already provides. I see it as more of a selling feature as in "well we use CF in our necks so buy our guitar!" After all the Holy Grail (for many) of all guitar tone and quality are the 50s Les Pauls. Now they certainly didn't have CF in the necks. As a side note though a little CF spline at the neck/peghead wouldn't have hurt a thing. Right? So that and the cost of CF have held me at bay. Now with your research and cost information "I have to face stupid reality again" Thanks!
The CF reduces the chance of having dead spots on the neck, the way many Fenders do. Stiffer necks are always better sounding. And Gibson could mostly eliminate broken headstocks if they used a scarf joint instead of band sawing the head angle. Maybe a shallower angle too.
Great tone only comes from great songs. If the song is great, the tone - whatever it sounds like - BECOMES great. So I wouldn't even worry about it, tone wise.
Truss rods are already a selling feature... Many people are avoiding products like Vigier's guitars because there's no truss rod thanks to a CF beam (providing more flex resistance, lighter necks and more vibration transmission, aka sustain, than a truss rod). Even without talking about CF beams, a laminate neck made of really good wood is already strong enough to not have a truss. Thing is Gibson invented truss rods because they do not use such construction / wood quality.
Wicked awesome video Steve! I thought I was the only one to agonize over these things. My only concern with the tubes is tone. I try to have minimal air space in my necks. But who knows, they may ring like a bell!
A lot of bass guys like steel rods, they say it helps eliminate dead notes. Been wondering how they'd work in a guitar. May end up a bit neck heavy on the negative side.
Didn't know that about basses. Even for a bass guitar...it seems like it would be too heavy. Need an extra long upper horn for balance I suppose. Although...sometimes you never know until you try it.
Observing carbon rods being 10 times more flex resistant than maple is, almost, in the ball park. Hardest maple (Acer saccharum), in best conditions, has an elasticity modulus around 12.6 Gpa, and such carbon rods should be about 180 Gpa. Though it appears to me (and many others) that the best reinforcement known is a full beam of carbon like the ones Vigier uses. It's so flex resistant that Vigier's guitars don't need any truss rod at all.
Lots of great info. I'm sold on the carbon fiber tubes! What does the titanium truss rod get you over steel? Seems like just lighter weight. Steel is already strong enough so the extra strength is wasted.
Just found this video. Trying to DIY fix and experiment with my guitar. If the neck is bolt on, reinforcing it with too thick a hard wood, would then place lots more tension on the neck to body join?
Great episode, I learned a lot. I'd go so far as to say the groovy factor of this video was greater than that of a corrugated tin roof. I went to the Dragon Plate site and looked for the hollow carbon fiber rod, is it the one under the "Square Pultrated Tubes" menu? Have you done any tone shootouts of necks with and without carbon fiber reinforcement?
That is the correct tube John. Thanks for your groovy endorsement. Honestly, I can't tell the difference in tone...I'm sure someone can. However...I'm sold on the added strength.
@@maximumguitarworks I went to find the CF tube based on your reply above - thanks, as I had same question. Sadly, though DragonPlate is in New York, the estimated shipping to Georgia was $43 Ground on a $33 ($30 minimum required) order of CF tube. What was yuour experience? And thanks for this excellent video! You answered questions I didn't know I had :)
@Maximum Guitar Works I too would love to see you make a neck testing video, but to see how various reinforcement materials affect the tensil strength of the resulting neck with various woods - same jig could be re-used too! As a new builder, I have a lot of questions about when to decide to use reinforcements (as a logcal QA measure) based on wood type and grain direction - ie, "If you are using African Mahogany vs Honduran vs Maple vs Wenge, with the grain running in direction, you should use reinforcement..." etc. Perhaps one should test tensil strength of the neck wood before/after the truss rod channel is cut and without truss rod and fingerboard? I'd like to know if the neck flexes distance under weight of pounds (sans trussrod channel), one should use reinforcement. Maybe such "insanity" could make poplar an expanded choice? You rock regardless!
Yeah...I order in bulk, so shipping is not as much per piece...but I have noticed that they overprice their shipping in my opinion. But things like this make me look at other options...and I have two for you. Kite and RC builder often use carbon fiber of various sizes. I have found a 6mm solution for you. You just need to purchase a 6mm spiral bit for your routing and it will be of similar strength as the 1/4" I have been using. There is a solid version and a square tube version...both on Amazon for much better pricing and free shipping option. www.amazon.com/cncarbonfiber-Square-6x6x5x420mm-Available-Pultruded/dp/B08SVKM3SM/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Carbon+Fiber+square+tubes&qid=1626869336&s=industrial&sr=1-3 www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09417J2Q5/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3IW91RO6GTANJ&psc=1
@@maximumguitarworks Thanks! I saw that @ 420mm (~16.5") but went with another source I found on Amazon for the hollow tube @ 1000mm (~ 39.4") to get 2 rods that equal the StewMac length of 18" assuming that was the suggested length, since I didn't know how long they should be. Like DragonPlate, the more one buys the cheaper it gets. They also have quantities of (4) and (10) 1000mm tube/rods that make it even cheaper but I got enough to make 2 necks to try out it out. (2) 1000mm rods will = ~ $7/neck.
Thanks for your comment. Sorry for the late reply. I don't plan to sell things that can be easily sourced elsewhere. Dragon Plate...or Amazon seem to provide good options.
Seems to me that any strip that returns to pre-flexed state would be useless in a guitar neck, since string tension is constant. Two 1/8" x 3/8" carbon fiber strips might contribute to resistance and not add significant weight to the neck. A 1/4 square rod would be geometrically weaker. No?
Great video! I guess that I don't have a complete understanding of truss rods, it would seem to me that all of that extra stiffening would make it more difficult for the truss rod to do it's thing. Does it increase the stress put on the truss rod to manipulate the neck?
A truss rod is to correct movement in the neck wood due to changes in the weather. A more rigid neck is not affected as much by these conditions as a less rigid neck. That is the primary reason for quarter sawn and/or laminated necks....as well as neck reinforcements.
The reinforcement I am looking for is the neck area directly under the nut, the weakest part of the neck. If you were to continue the slots into the headstock, would that make that area any stronger?
Great vid. I have a question relating to Bass rather than guitar. Hope you can help. I'm building a 6 string bass with 16mm spacing at the bridge. I'm undecided on number and type of truss rods and number of carbon fibre rods. One builder says 2 truss rods and 1 carbon fibre, another says 1 and 2 carbon fibre; and a third says 2 and 3 carbon fibre rods. What do you think? I have a couple of 2 foot single action truss rods. Can I use them or am I better off getting double action? Thanks x
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you...I have been off RUclips for a while as I deal with life. I do not have a good answer for you as my experience does not include building bass guitars. Generally my rule of thumb is that you can't have a neck that is too ridged. However, two truss rods and three CF rods seems a little excessive to me...which is a strange thing to say. Wish I could be of more help.
Cool episode, Steve. However, it was a chewing gum wrapper and 6-inch length of bailing wire short of a true MacGyver shoot. See you on the other side of Covid-19!
IF there was no truss rod or reinforcements in a flat saw neck …. How much relief would string tension alone create ? I guess string gauge is going to effect the answer to that question. Let’s us a set of 10’s And then say we change the wood to quarter sawn ? Keeping the string Gauge the same
No idea...probably too much. Quartersawn would be less...but I have never tested. I do know based up guitars I have worked on is that a pretty good amount of the truss rod is needed when going from 10's to 9's.
thank u for this most excellent video full of the pudding. i love you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he reminds me of luke skywalker.
Not sure I understand which part of "it" you are referring to. Anything besides the maple will stiffen the neck...so if that is your goal...then they work.
OK...I understand what you are asking now. Let me first say...I believe if you are looking for reinforcement to prevent twisting...your are off track. Twisting is often the result of bad wood...not stable enough. First priority is to select the best wood you can. The goal is a good stiff neck that is not as susceptible to changing due to weather changes. This is why quarter sawn wood is better than flat sawn. However, many flat sawn are very beautiful. Everything is a trade off. Adding rigidity will make any neck better...which is where neck reinforcement comes into play. Do all necks need it? certainly not. Can all neck benefit from it. Yes...because there is no down side other than extra time and money to build. A truss rod is not really designed to keep wood from moving...it is to fix the bow in the neck that is too much or not enough (in the cause of dual action truss rods). The less the truss rod has to fix...because the wood is more stable...the better the neck. Less stable necks require more tweaking with changes of temperature and humidity. More stabile necks require very little adjustments after initial setup. Hopefully this clears up your question. Bottom line...more rigid necks are better.
Super interesting, tx! Best video indeed. So um, any chance you could create a contraption to compare the sounds? Maybe those tubes sound great, or maybe they sound bad, better find out if you're gonna use them...
It is a protruded carbon fiber...which I believe is different than pure graphite. But I am not a real scientist ...so this might be a better question for someone smarter than me. However, form a sales point of view...they classify these into the carbon fiber group. There are fibers in them...but not carbon fiber cloth like sheets use.
They make their money back on outrageous shipping costs. I was going to buy them till I got to the gouging shipping costs. Even the quote I got from them was high. Said screw it, didn't order them.
hey steve..! Can I put a Carbon reinforcement on my Strat neck by removing the fingerboard because my neck moves a lot and is literally unplayable even after multiple setups within a few days.
Yes you can. However, removing a fingerboard is not as easy as some make it look. There are unknown as to what glue was used...which dictates the method of removal. Any glue that comes loose with steam (moisture and hear) has a chance to damage the straightness of the board. Also, it the neck is moving that much...it seems to me that something else is wrong too. Truss rod slipping, other portion of the setup not right. Could be many things. I would consider everything before attempting to remove the fingerboard.
@@maximumguitarworks Thank you so much. I will surely look into all these other aspects you pointed out.😁 The moment I got the guitar setup, within 2 days it started buzzing, I started getting fret buzz on the lower frets and then the action gets abnormally high on the higher frets, I can also see a slight twist on the neck. In short its just frustrating me. I feel the company has been putting out necks which are not completely dried out I guess. Thanks again Steve. Your response means a lot.
@@leoarjuncrasto I have similar problem with my Indonesian Ibanez RG. Removed the finger board with big wide flat salad knife without heating or any other preparation. Started from the nut with gentle hammering and a lot of pushing. It went cleaner than expected.
@@leoarjuncrasto I did it just to replace the maple fingerboard with ebony. At that time I had no idea I can use this opportunity to install extra rods to improve the neck stability. You can hear it here: ruclips.net/video/dXK65mbvb9M/видео.html
This is actually the best ever guitar neck reinforcement video.
Thank you so much Bruno...I am sincerely happy that you found the information useful.
Instablaster
Yes , I concur! Most informative. Especially when building light weight!
But w a a y too long.
Hot damn is it refreshing for someone to put a video out about this that isn't laden with BS
Thanks. I try to be objective...but in the end we all have biases that we must deal with.
I for one am grateful for the time you've put in on this. Now I don't have to and it NEEDED to be done!!
Great channel
So great! That’s a real engineering approach! Good to have facts to stick to. Thank you very much!
Great information !! Answered a lot of questions for me !
I'm currently designing the neck for my Firebird project, thanks for this excellent info.
Would love to see the same pressure test on finished necks since the wood and reinforcement make the total package.
Great video. Why haven't I seen this one before. Thanks
I just watched this. At the end I stood up and applauded! Thank you for the deep dive and bringing us along. I think your test jig was awesome. Even before you said anything I thought, “ that must be some sort of contraption to test them!” I was right!
This is why I watch your videos and buy your stuff! It is the combination of knowledge and sarcasm that I appreciate the most!
You really do need to do a video about materials that you use. I was going to ask you what type of epoxy do you use or do you suggest?
Thanks Steve!
I like a lot of tension playing extreme metal so I built a baritone flying V with 28.5" scale, in A#, 13-72 strings. I used dense mahogany in the neck & reinforced it with two 1/2" round graphite rods. That's about the limit of what you can fit in a 6-string neck, and it's extremely strong & stable and sounds amazing. Absolutely love it.
You’re GREAT)) thank you very much for your curiosity!! I’m a physicist and it’s very useful for my guitar work
Thanks Alex. It might have not been a test up to a higher educational standards...but it was just enough to help me make some decisions. I appreciate the comment.
Do the "bow" test on the different neck woods we use. Uniform cut outs. As close to the same quarter sawn angle as possible. Same length. I'd pay to see that one.
Great video! Steve is a great teacher!
I would be nice if you test 1. Truss rods doing the same experiment and 2 a complete neck with and without carbon rods. Please do such a video.
Thanks for this great video! No mambo jumbo marketing bull..., but a profound fact-based approach.
amazing video, definitely going to stock up on carbon fibre hollow tubes for reinforcement
Wow.... This is not insanity... This is Excitement!....
Nice tests!
By the way, i didn't find any carbon fiber truss rods... But they are quite easy to make by itself...
Steve if the deep dive videos were to become a series, that would be awesome
That is a good idea Amit. I think that I will put this video into a "Deep Dive" playlist. The only problem...is I really didn't set out to make a deep dive video. It was going to be a quick video on the strengths of different neck reinforcement methods...then I got obsessive! That is so unlike me to get obsessive. ;-)
Modulus of elasticity of titanium is about 140GN/m^2. Steel is about 200-210GN/m^2, so steel is considerably stiffer then titanium, but has a weight penalty. Unidirectional CF has an even greater MoE than steel is is much lighter than any of the metal alternatives. CF is the preferred choice every time.
Love the attention to detail and of course the excellent humor! Keep it coming! /Jonas
Great comparison and very informative. Technically, you are measuring load at a specific beam deflection. Since the cross-sections of the beams you are testing differ from sample to sample, it’s not quite a pure analysis of the strength of each material as much as it is a comparison of the beams with the predominant factor being the difference in strength of each material plus the geometric effects. One nit is that you are measuring load, which is in pounds and this is not a pressure but rather a force. Hope this helps and thanks for your analysis.
An equal length and geometry of the cross section is important when comparing the stifness. The titanium has a different dimensions, according to it´s cross section, than the maple and carbon rods.
Fantastic information here. Really lives up to its title as Best Ever.
I have spent lots of time in Spanish luthier shops - never seen maple put in a neck. I have seen ebony of various dimension and configurations. I've only been in dozens of the top luthier shops (Contreras, Ramirez, Conde, Marin, Belido, Pardo, Ferrer,... etc.) but never seen maple used.
"This represents... way to much time invested..." deserved -- and got! -- an immediate sub.
I had Carbon reinforcements rods installed in one of my guitars. The biggest diference i noticed was how fast the guitar responded to the pick attack. We figured the neck deflected way less when playing. So we did a little experiment, we got a good guitar without neck reinforcements (an Ibanez RG Prestige) and mine. We fixed both guitars to the table with a dial indicator at the tip of the headstock. As we applied pressure to the string we would se the indicator moving as the neck bowed. Now, when we tried that with the guitar with reinforcements, we noticed that the neck wouldn't move even 1/3 of what the ibanez neck did.
And yes the ibanez was in perfect playing condition...
So, if you think about installing those in an old guitar just have that in mind. Your neck will be stiffer and will feel stiffer, and the note attack will be much faster, if you believe you will like that, go for it (I loved it).
"Tonewise" that's the difference i noticed the faster response of the instrument, either you played louder or quieter. Maybe a litttle bit more of the 1/2 harmonic nodes (but just maybe). As far as eq goes i didn't notice anything.
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Really satisfying video about neck reinforcement! It can't get any better than this. 👏🙌👌👍🥂
Wonderful to hear that nerdiness is appreciated by others. ;-)
@@maximumguitarworks sure... the time, effort and detailed info you include in your videos are close to non. Kudos to you! 👏🙌✌🥂
I use carbon fiber in all my necks. Poplar (tuliptree) actually makes a great sounding neck. I’ve used it, and that’s what Danelectro used back in the day.
Seriously? I did not know that. Sure is a light neck.
Epic true engineering. Cool. Much respect appreciate this!
I've learned a ton watching and listening. These videos help boost my confidence to get out there and take on the next step in building my first guitar. Thank you, and keep posting!
Thanks for the comment Chris...keep watching...I'll try to keep posting as time and ideas present themselves.
@@maximumguitarworks Do you know where I can buy those titanium truss rods?
The only place I have found them is to order directly from Tatsuta of Japan..They are not cheap...but the quality is very high!
tatsuta.theshop.jp/items/31059269
@@bocote3119 StewMAc also sells them: www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/materials/truss-rods/non-adjustable-rods-for-neck-reinforcement/titanium-neck-reinforcement-rod/
Excellent look at the rods in isolation, but there are other questions. What about the glue? Ultimately if the glue is not at least as strong as that carbon fiber it will let the whole thing down. So we need to run tests with the reinforcements glued in place. The other thing to consider is, don't we need to measure the actual strength of the whole neck, with and without the various materials glued in place? That 1/4 by 1/4 inch bit of carbon fiber is 10 times the strength of the maple but that is only a small portion of the whole neck. How much stiffer is a neck with a carbon fiber rod in it vs no rod - it's not going to be 10 times. Also, wood moves - humidity changes cause wood to shrink and swell plus the constant pressure of the strings may cause it to bow over time (yes that's what the carbon fiber is there to resist), since the force is changing due to humidity changes we need an adjustable rod in the neck.
Excellent as usual. Very informative!
Nice vid! Love the academic approach!
Knowledge from arrow nerding says that the outermost layers provide the most strength against flexing. Inner layers do add strength but not as much. Carbon fibre tubes are also the stiffest material availabe (in reasonable price range at least) for the weight. (compared to wood, heat treated bamboo, fibreglass, aluminum)
Basically never takes a set, breaks before it does.
You seem to have built an inverted version of an arrow spine tester! (where they hang a weight and measure the deflection)
So a thing I thought of is depending of where you place the carbon you would get greater resistance to string follow. Putting it as a skunk stripe is would be the strongest position, given the glue holds and it doesn't pop out.
Two in line sounds better for resistance to twisting of course.
Thanks Leif. I'm glad you found the video...and appreciate the approach. I'm not the smartest guy in the world...but I am fairly pragmatic...and like feeling like I do things for a good reason.
At one point I stayed away from CF because everyone was doing it...that is when I went to titanium. Sometimes people do things because they are cheap...or easy...but not always because they are better.
I found that CF is relatively cheap...easy to install...and in my tests it proved to be a better solution. That was the knowledge that I was after.
My 89 studio had ebony love it
Excellent video, Thank you!
This video has been a huge help. Very informative.
Super glad to hear. I'm an engineer at heart...but not in documentation!
Hi- can you do a similar test comparing truss rods with and without. Carbon fibers? Also comparing quality of truss rods. Thanks!
I like your test jig. I think it was a legitimate test.
Maximum Guitar Works what about steel rods and steel tube rods? Old Harmony guitars had steel reinforced necks Martins had steel Tbar rods later martin had steel tube rods also before rods Martin used Ebony in the necks. Do video on rods I mentioned.
Wish I would have found this video before I fixed the truss rod and redid the fret board on my 1988 Casio PG 380 (high end synth strat) maple neck, ebony board.
I replaced the route over the rod with the solid carbon fiber. The channel is curved. I curved the CF to fit the rod and channel shape before "gluing" it in leaving some sticking out.
Had fun trying to rasp file down to the wood.
Next time I will use the hollow CF on each side and MAYBE run wires to the neck and head stock ? (guitar has its own power)
Now about the greatest stress or tension. Pull is from the nut/head stock (or end) to heel (if a bolt on) String up, put an indicator on the head stock.
Loosen all the strings and it drops A LOT. This may not apply to a thru neck as much ? So with a floyd rose your neck is waving to the audience.
So pulling in the middle seems to be only half the test. A horizontal pull end to end maybe ?
My favorite "tonewoods" are aluminum and graphite-based materials.
On the drop test, I vote for the hollow graphite rod.
Thank you for the info
Very cool video!🤟
Great job Steve! You saved me allot of work because this is the stuff that keeps me up at night!! It would have been interesting to have tested the .200 x.250 rods on the side (flat sawn'ish laminates) to see what the difference is in strength.......
Great information! New subscriber!
Thanks...sorry for the late reply.
Great video and my type of humour.
Very cool. Thank you!
Good video to explain this topic!
Just soon getting my Ibanez RG that has titanium rods innit and 5 piece neck. I particularly hope that give some stability with climate changes throughout the seasons.
Where I live there is roughly around 60°C (140)°F range in temperature between summer and winter for winters been usually very low humidity and summers high (as that effects tough vary from guitar to another).
Many of my guitars have had issues usually in summers where they lose some playability and needs to be adjusted as I use rather low action in general.
I have to believe that you will be fine with that new neck!
Amazing informative video! and please do the video comparing truss rod materials ;)
Thanks Mark. I will keep it in mind.
Very informative videos
Which size (cross section) of the carbon rod is best suited for a bass guitar?
the you can't handle the truth killed me lol
I've always been a little skeptical of the need for more reinforcement than the truss rod already provides. I see it as more of a selling feature as in "well we use CF in our necks so buy our guitar!" After all the Holy Grail (for many) of all guitar tone and quality are the 50s Les Pauls. Now they certainly didn't have CF in the necks. As a side note though a little CF spline at the neck/peghead wouldn't have hurt a thing. Right? So that and the cost of CF have held me at bay. Now with your research and cost information "I have to face stupid reality again" Thanks!
The CF reduces the chance of having dead spots on the neck, the way many Fenders do. Stiffer necks are always better sounding.
And Gibson could mostly eliminate broken headstocks if they used a scarf joint instead of band sawing the head angle. Maybe a shallower angle too.
Great tone only comes from great songs. If the song is great, the tone - whatever it sounds like - BECOMES great. So I wouldn't even worry about it, tone wise.
Truss rods are already a selling feature... Many people are avoiding products like Vigier's guitars because there's no truss rod thanks to a CF beam (providing more flex resistance, lighter necks and more vibration transmission, aka sustain, than a truss rod).
Even without talking about CF beams, a laminate neck made of really good wood is already strong enough to not have a truss. Thing is Gibson invented truss rods because they do not use such construction / wood quality.
Wicked awesome video Steve! I thought I was the only one to agonize over these things. My only concern with the tubes is tone. I try to have minimal air space in my necks. But who knows, they may ring like a bell!
You will have to do a blind test Mike...see what you think.
A lot of bass guys like steel rods, they say it helps eliminate dead notes. Been wondering how they'd work in a guitar. May end up a bit neck heavy on the negative side.
Didn't know that about basses. Even for a bass guitar...it seems like it would be too heavy. Need an extra long upper horn for balance I suppose. Although...sometimes you never know until you try it.
Thanks so much sir
i could find any mojo, so i settled for coffee instead....? edit is that the right joe???? jo now imconfused....
Observing carbon rods being 10 times more flex resistant than maple is, almost, in the ball park. Hardest maple (Acer saccharum), in best conditions, has an elasticity modulus around 12.6 Gpa, and such carbon rods should be about 180 Gpa.
Though it appears to me (and many others) that the best reinforcement known is a full beam of carbon like the ones Vigier uses. It's so flex resistant that Vigier's guitars don't need any truss rod at all.
Great video👍
Subscribed
Impressive!
I love this video
Very good. Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it. I have a very curious brain.
thank you .
Lots of great info. I'm sold on the carbon fiber tubes! What does the titanium truss rod get you over steel? Seems like just lighter weight. Steel is already strong enough so the extra strength is wasted.
Titanium is higher strength to weight...so it can be stronger. I think maybe too strong...if that is possible. Plus...titanium sounds cooler.
Just found this video.
Trying to DIY fix and experiment with my guitar.
If the neck is bolt on, reinforcing it with too thick a hard wood, would then place lots more tension on the neck to body join?
Love your clases
Thanks Julian!
Good
Great episode, I learned a lot. I'd go so far as to say the groovy factor of this video was greater than that of a corrugated tin roof. I went to the Dragon Plate site and looked for the hollow carbon fiber rod, is it the one under the "Square Pultrated Tubes" menu? Have you done any tone shootouts of necks with and without carbon fiber reinforcement?
That is the correct tube John. Thanks for your groovy endorsement. Honestly, I can't tell the difference in tone...I'm sure someone can. However...I'm sold on the added strength.
@@maximumguitarworks I went to find the CF tube based on your reply above - thanks, as I had same question. Sadly, though DragonPlate is in New York, the estimated shipping to Georgia was $43 Ground on a $33 ($30 minimum required) order of CF tube. What was yuour experience? And thanks for this excellent video! You answered questions I didn't know I had :)
@Maximum Guitar Works I too would love to see you make a neck testing video, but to see how various reinforcement materials affect the tensil strength of the resulting neck with various woods - same jig could be re-used too! As a new builder, I have a lot of questions about when to decide to use reinforcements (as a logcal QA measure) based on wood type and grain direction - ie, "If you are using African Mahogany vs Honduran vs Maple vs Wenge, with the grain running in direction, you should use reinforcement..." etc. Perhaps one should test tensil strength of the neck wood before/after the truss rod channel is cut and without truss rod and fingerboard? I'd like to know if the neck flexes distance under weight of pounds (sans trussrod channel), one should use reinforcement. Maybe such "insanity" could make poplar an expanded choice? You rock regardless!
Yeah...I order in bulk, so shipping is not as much per piece...but I have noticed that they overprice their shipping in my opinion.
But things like this make me look at other options...and I have two for you. Kite and RC builder often use carbon fiber of various sizes. I have found a 6mm solution for you. You just need to purchase a 6mm spiral bit for your routing and it will be of similar strength as the 1/4" I have been using.
There is a solid version and a square tube version...both on Amazon for much better pricing and free shipping option.
www.amazon.com/cncarbonfiber-Square-6x6x5x420mm-Available-Pultruded/dp/B08SVKM3SM/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Carbon+Fiber+square+tubes&qid=1626869336&s=industrial&sr=1-3
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09417J2Q5/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A3IW91RO6GTANJ&psc=1
@@maximumguitarworks Thanks! I saw that @ 420mm (~16.5") but went with another source I found on Amazon for the hollow tube @ 1000mm (~ 39.4") to get 2 rods that equal the StewMac length of 18" assuming that was the suggested length, since I didn't know how long they should be. Like DragonPlate, the more one buys the cheaper it gets. They also have quantities of (4) and (10) 1000mm tube/rods that make it even cheaper but I got enough to make 2 necks to try out it out. (2) 1000mm rods will = ~ $7/neck.
Pounds measure force. Pressure is force per area.
Great video, but safety warning acetone will absorb thru your skin into you bloodstream.
Otherwise are you going to sell carbon fiber rods?
Thanks for your comment. Sorry for the late reply. I don't plan to sell things that can be easily sourced elsewhere. Dragon Plate...or Amazon seem to provide good options.
Seems to me that any strip that returns to pre-flexed state would be useless in a guitar neck, since string tension is constant. Two 1/8" x 3/8" carbon fiber strips might contribute to resistance and not add significant weight to the neck. A 1/4 square rod would be geometrically weaker. No?
It is all overkill most of the time. So, preference and economics plays a role too.
Great video! I guess that I don't have a complete understanding of truss rods, it would seem to me that all of that extra stiffening would make it more difficult for the truss rod to do it's thing. Does it increase the stress put on the truss rod to manipulate the neck?
A truss rod is to correct movement in the neck wood due to changes in the weather. A more rigid neck is not affected as much by these conditions as a less rigid neck. That is the primary reason for quarter sawn and/or laminated necks....as well as neck reinforcements.
Thanks x
Hi and congratulations !! ... so between the solid carbon bars and those with holes, which are the most resistant? Thanks
Seem the same to me as far as bounce back.
is it possible to install these reinforcement rods from the back of the neck? Without removing the fretboard?
The reinforcement I am looking for is the neck area directly under the nut, the weakest part of the neck. If you were to continue the slots into the headstock, would that make that area any stronger?
Any thoughts a year later? Had these rods in a neck(s) for awhile? Bout to build a neck, wondering about the stiffening choice...
you mean torrified wood is more resistant, not resilient, right?
Great vid. I have a question relating to Bass rather than guitar. Hope you can help.
I'm building a 6 string bass with 16mm spacing at the bridge. I'm undecided on number and type of truss rods and number of carbon fibre rods. One builder says 2 truss rods and 1 carbon fibre, another says 1 and 2 carbon fibre; and a third says 2 and 3 carbon fibre rods. What do you think? I have a couple of 2 foot single action truss rods. Can I use them or am I better off getting double action? Thanks x
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you...I have been off RUclips for a while as I deal with life. I do not have a good answer for you as my experience does not include building bass guitars. Generally my rule of thumb is that you can't have a neck that is too ridged. However, two truss rods and three CF rods seems a little excessive to me...which is a strange thing to say. Wish I could be of more help.
Do reinforcement inserts affect the degree which the truss rod can adjust?
Cool episode, Steve. However, it was a chewing gum wrapper and 6-inch length of bailing wire short of a true MacGyver shoot. See you on the other side of Covid-19!
That's the next episode Ira. ;-)
IF there was no truss rod or reinforcements in a flat saw neck …. How much relief would string tension alone create ? I guess string gauge is going to effect the answer to that question. Let’s us a set of 10’s
And then say we change the wood to quarter sawn ? Keeping the string Gauge the same
No idea...probably too much. Quartersawn would be less...but I have never tested. I do know based up guitars I have worked on is that a pretty good amount of the truss rod is needed when going from 10's to 9's.
thank u for this most excellent video full of the pudding.
i love you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! he reminds me of luke skywalker.
Thank you Dennis...although the "I love you" makes my wife jealous. ;-)
@@maximumguitarworks ha ha, tell her i only love my neighbor as myself.
Well done!
e com o tempo, o braço empena ou não?
Would bone be any good for reinforcement?
Very cool. But how do you know it works?
Not sure I understand which part of "it" you are referring to. Anything besides the maple will stiffen the neck...so if that is your goal...then they work.
@@maximumguitarworks i just hadn’t seen any comparison or experiments anywhere to see if these actually keep a neck from twisting.
OK...I understand what you are asking now. Let me first say...I believe if you are looking for reinforcement to prevent twisting...your are off track. Twisting is often the result of bad wood...not stable enough. First priority is to select the best wood you can. The goal is a good stiff neck that is not as susceptible to changing due to weather changes. This is why quarter sawn wood is better than flat sawn. However, many flat sawn are very beautiful. Everything is a trade off. Adding rigidity will make any neck better...which is where neck reinforcement comes into play. Do all necks need it? certainly not. Can all neck benefit from it. Yes...because there is no down side other than extra time and money to build.
A truss rod is not really designed to keep wood from moving...it is to fix the bow in the neck that is too much or not enough (in the cause of dual action truss rods). The less the truss rod has to fix...because the wood is more stable...the better the neck. Less stable necks require more tweaking with changes of temperature and humidity. More stabile necks require very little adjustments after initial setup.
Hopefully this clears up your question. Bottom line...more rigid necks are better.
@@maximumguitarworks great thorough explanation thanks!!
Nice. And a bit of insanity.
Super interesting, tx! Best video indeed. So um, any chance you could create a contraption to compare the sounds? Maybe those tubes sound great, or maybe they sound bad, better find out if you're gonna use them...
Anything is possible.
You’re such a cool guy, haha 😆😊👍
Cool? More nerdy!!
@@maximumguitarworks A funny nerdy cool guy 😂
very interesting but the scale you are using came from aliexpress and is false i have 2 of them and they dtgive the same reading.
Having trouble finding square stock on Dragonplate. Can you link to what you use?
dragonplate.com/Square-Pultruded-Tubes
How about graphite?
is the carbon fibre that you talk about graphite? thanks!
It is a protruded carbon fiber...which I believe is different than pure graphite. But I am not a real scientist ...so this might be a better question for someone smarter than me. However, form a sales point of view...they classify these into the carbon fiber group. There are fibers in them...but not carbon fiber cloth like sheets use.
"This is impressive."
They make their money back on outrageous shipping costs. I was going to buy them till I got to the gouging shipping costs. Even the quote I got from them was high. Said screw it, didn't order them.
Kts titanium vs carbon fiber? What is better?
It is subjective. From my test...strength to weight goes to the carbon fiber. And all I use is carbon fiber now...if that means anything.
One question? Why is it harder to route a .20" channel compared to a .25"? They seem to route the same to me provided you have the right bit.
I only say that because a 1/8” router bit requires more patience and care when routing. I find a 1/4” bit to be more forgiving.
@@maximumguitarworks Fair point, I go about 3 passes regardless if its 1/8,.20 or 1/4.
never tested steel
hey steve..! Can I put a Carbon reinforcement on my Strat neck by removing the fingerboard because my neck moves a lot and is literally unplayable even after multiple setups within a few days.
Yes you can. However, removing a fingerboard is not as easy as some make it look. There are unknown as to what glue was used...which dictates the method of removal. Any glue that comes loose with steam (moisture and hear) has a chance to damage the straightness of the board.
Also, it the neck is moving that much...it seems to me that something else is wrong too. Truss rod slipping, other portion of the setup not right. Could be many things.
I would consider everything before attempting to remove the fingerboard.
@@maximumguitarworks Thank you so much. I will surely look into all these other aspects you pointed out.😁
The moment I got the guitar setup, within 2 days it started buzzing, I started getting fret buzz on the lower frets and then the action gets abnormally high on the higher frets, I can also see a slight twist on the neck.
In short its just frustrating me. I feel the company has been putting out necks which are not completely dried out I guess.
Thanks again Steve. Your response means a lot.
@@leoarjuncrasto
I have similar problem with my Indonesian Ibanez RG. Removed the finger board with big wide flat salad knife without heating or any other preparation. Started from the nut with gentle hammering and a lot of pushing. It went cleaner than expected.
@@ANCAPVoluntaryist how does it play after the reinforcement?
@@leoarjuncrasto
I did it just to replace the maple fingerboard with ebony.
At that time I had no idea I can use this opportunity to install extra rods to improve the neck stability.
You can hear it here:
ruclips.net/video/dXK65mbvb9M/видео.html