the one thing about pc motherboards versus other complex boards is how iterative they are and how many partners are involved in their production which is not to say a single person could design one i've yet to meet the person who can design firmware, power supplies, memory, and io all on his own realistically you probably need 4 senior engineers minimum. and each one will probably have his own team but, all that said, i can envisage how one would go about designing one for other complex boards like the base station card i wouldnt even know where to start i really enjoyed this conversation - keep up the good work!
The number of people required based on the complexity level of various designs is something all engineering management personnel should see and understand. So many times, this is horribly mis-understood and underestimated. Excellent information in this video.
Great content, but Istvan really has to change his microphone, it is very difficult to listen when all high frequency is not there. And Robert, if you care about the sound quality you might test the audio on a test call and ask to change the microphone or do EQ.
So a complex motherboard is still relatively cheap in the engineering business. I am surprised how few resources they need for the most complex example
The silicon vendors do most of the heavy lifting analysis and engineering and then provide the design guide that really helps reduce the engineering effort for the board designers.
Although I work in another high tech industry, I do recognise the amount of work we put into design guidelines and (troubleshooting) manuals. I hope we allow for significant cost reductions down the line, but I have no idea what effort is needed to integrate our products for each use case
Design toolchain (that is including simulation) is significant cost leader, the price estimates are not including that, or are accounting in eastern Europe engineering salaries.
Isn't the cost and people estimation shown in the "what is complex" slide based on the company already having a background in motherboard design ? For a company making its first complex motherboard the costs would be much higher.
In my cases normally first or second revision would make it to mass production. It is expensive to build these boards so it is good to test everything and be sure it is ok before making a new revision. However, there are exceptions ... especially if potential problem could be in PCB layout, these changes can't be tested without making new PCBs. And you get the new PCB and problem is still there ... you know ... there will be probably another revision.
@@RobertFeranec can you design courses for open source chips available? Lets make a community where people design open source powerful chips to use and create powerful boards out of them.
Awesome video. I wish you guys talked about some Chinese motherboard makers utilizing mobile chips as desktop and also some desktop chips IIRC. For AMD, It’s called Knoll3 / X300 / Knoll activator. I wonder if this greatly reduces complexity. Asrock has some models. You basically get an AMD desktop platform with a lot less power consumption and I suppose complexity and as a result stability.
@@KaziQTR Chinese - so I could visit the Chinese motherboard makers and ask questions. Talking to big chip manufacturers itself is difficult - the employees can't just talk, everything they say has to be approved by company. And talking about the chips without chip manufacturer - again difficult as it would have to be based on free and available documentation and there is not much what people can download without NDA. I have designed AMD board before ... everything was under NDA.
@@RobertFeranec I see. You are right. There is supposed to be an activator in place of a south bridge but it’s probably a simple chip that just does simple checks. I’ve heard it’s behind NDA. I wish I could design some wild motherboards. First thing I would do is slap a 7800X3D permanently and make it without the south bridge because USB 4 is separate from south bridge anyway and people don’t use SATA anymore. It’s a waste of constant 10W sucking energy non stop at best. Laptops idle at 2,5W. Even simplest boards idle at 25W. When I build a different arch computer or buy a friend a laptop I check power consumption. And there is unnecessary gap between laptops and PCs. South bridge is one of the culprits.
@@RobertFeranec It's also frustrating that these companies announce very nice features and we never get to use them because motherboard manufacturers don't utilize those features. When AMD Ryzen 7000 series was released no motherboard manufacturer took notice but they made the second portion of the x16 that is x8 PCIe lane divisible down to x1. I suppose it was designed when the mining computers were booming hence the x1s. I would still use it today if I had the chance for different purposes. I like using individual PCIe slots in my virtual machines. If they are not divided in the CPU natively, it doesn't work right in the VMs. If I could design a motherboard, I'd definitely have one like that.
Wait!!! Do you want to tell that people designing PC motherboards are making less than 30 grand per year? Some of them graduated from universities(some from unreasonably expensive American universities) and they are probably required to have more then 3 to 5 years of experience... As far as I can see 30 grand per year for five to nine job with a degree and ton of experience is terrible(for Europe or US that is, for eastern Europe or China it's 4 to 6 times more than average wages)... Is it really a 5 to 9 job, or is it more like one of many projects you do simultaneously(without multitasking, just during the same year or month)?
They don't work all at the same time and they don't work all for the whole of the time of development. So there may be time when only 1 engineer is working on the project, then a firmware guy can help for couple of days etc. Also there are times when there is no need for experience person working on the project e.g writing manual or there may be time when no one is working on the project e.g. when boards are in production or are running some tests
so the complexity seems to be the firmware engineers? why? I come from a coding background so that seems unusual. Like 20 engineers for that board? you said even hundreds?
a single person can do the schematic for all generations of processor boards. The additional staff is mechanical, layout, power supply, bios, management controller firmware, device driver software...
Geez, the level of garbage really hurts my eyes and I am really worried if these people do design modern electronics. This is just a great collection of how to not do things really. I have seen the book in PDF having the same pictures as in this video.. and really? I never seen such a poor book. Is it a random collection of keywords that was tasked to ChatGPT to write a book on it. No no no no. I will never forget this extensive nonsense.
for past 10+ years, we did about 400 sch+pcb designs (we number project sequentially), for both inhouse and external products. I do not believe a guy who can not keep consistency in hi illustrations in a book or video. Its just random bits collected and copied from internet here and there.. that is not engineering, but fakery.
@@cameramaker how many components did you have on your designs? Anything above 1000 comps requires working on many sub system block diagrams, simulation models, spreadsheets and flow charts for weeks or months, before the schematic design even starts. Hence "complex" in the title. There are other videos about microcontroller board design, that go straight to schematic.
Wow, I'm impressed by the knowledgeable people you are able to bring to the channel.
me too and super thankful for all these opportunities
You dropped a banger, I always wanted to recreate old AMD/Intel motherboards
the one thing about pc motherboards versus other complex boards is how iterative they are
and how many partners are involved in their production
which is not to say a single person could design one
i've yet to meet the person who can design firmware, power supplies, memory, and io all on his own
realistically you probably need 4 senior engineers minimum. and each one will probably have his own team
but, all that said, i can envisage how one would go about designing one
for other complex boards like the base station card i wouldnt even know where to start
i really enjoyed this conversation - keep up the good work!
this channel has become all-stars's hub :) thanks for the video. Istvan's book is really inspiring btw.
Wow, Robert, you are the road map for Hardware designs.
Your idea of inviting specialist in diverse field is genius! Makes the channel so much more interesting
Robert this is a most awaited video . thank you so much. i learn design pcb from your course. thank you so much. keep upload videos like this....
Thank you
The number of people required based on the complexity level of various designs is something all engineering management personnel should see and understand. So many times, this is horribly mis-understood and underestimated. Excellent information in this video.
Istvan's are magnificient, maybe the next one is Istvan Novak 🤗
+1 for this one, listening to actual experts in their domain is much more interesting.
This is the kind of podcast I like to listen
This is really great, this type of stuff is really hard to learn on your own. I ordered the book.
Complex PCB design 101 class. Awesome content. Thank you!
This is such an amazing video, with lots of tips and tricks. Will definitely check out the book.
really great info, this is awesome!
Robert you never disappoint
Amazing. This is pure gold. 🎉🎉
Wow! Can't wait to watch this though!!!
Tanks for your amazing explain
Amazing content. Thank you very much
Excellent video.
Great video, would have like to see EMC included.
I’m going to buy that guy’s book.
Great content, but Istvan really has to change his microphone, it is very difficult to listen when all high frequency is not there. And Robert, if you care about the sound quality you might test the audio on a test call and ask to change the microphone or do EQ.
Good knowledge, impressive!
You shoudl bring the guys from Framework Laptop
Thank you!
So a complex motherboard is still relatively cheap in the engineering business. I am surprised how few resources they need for the most complex example
The silicon vendors do most of the heavy lifting analysis and engineering and then provide the design guide that really helps reduce the engineering effort for the board designers.
Although I work in another high tech industry, I do recognise the amount of work we put into design guidelines and (troubleshooting) manuals. I hope we allow for significant cost reductions down the line, but I have no idea what effort is needed to integrate our products for each use case
Design toolchain (that is including simulation) is significant cost leader, the price estimates are not including that, or are accounting in eastern Europe engineering salaries.
Isn't the cost and people estimation shown in the "what is complex" slide based on the company already having a background in motherboard design ? For a company making its first complex motherboard the costs would be much higher.
I would ask how many revisions to the pcb they make until they get the final product.
Good question
In my cases normally first or second revision would make it to mass production. It is expensive to build these boards so it is good to test everything and be sure it is ok before making a new revision. However, there are exceptions ... especially if potential problem could be in PCB layout, these changes can't be tested without making new PCBs. And you get the new PCB and problem is still there ... you know ... there will be probably another revision.
@@RobertFeranec maybe they develoo many smaller test boards before ordering the motherboard prototype ?
excellent!
Can you design a full course on how to design these complex mother boards, server boards, base station cards?
I could, but it would cost a loooooot of money. Also it would require cooperation with some chip vendors as some info is often under NDA.
@@RobertFeranec the course would be worth paying for by the learners
@@RobertFeranec can you design courses for open source chips available? Lets make a community where people design open source powerful chips to use and create powerful boards out of them.
just woww
Hi guys, how to start learning the profession? Motherboard design etc?
Start with simple electronics and then improve from there.
Awesome video. I wish you guys talked about some Chinese motherboard makers utilizing mobile chips as desktop and also some desktop chips IIRC. For AMD, It’s called Knoll3 / X300 / Knoll activator. I wonder if this greatly reduces complexity. Asrock has some models. You basically get an AMD desktop platform with a lot less power consumption and I suppose complexity and as a result stability.
I am working on my Chinese ... maybe in future
@@RobertFeranec I’m not sure what that has to do with Chinese 😀. Thanks for the video though I enjoyed it a lot.
@@KaziQTR Chinese - so I could visit the Chinese motherboard makers and ask questions. Talking to big chip manufacturers itself is difficult - the employees can't just talk, everything they say has to be approved by company. And talking about the chips without chip manufacturer - again difficult as it would have to be based on free and available documentation and there is not much what people can download without NDA. I have designed AMD board before ... everything was under NDA.
@@RobertFeranec I see. You are right. There is supposed to be an activator in place of a south bridge but it’s probably a simple chip that just does simple checks. I’ve heard it’s behind NDA. I wish I could design some wild motherboards. First thing I would do is slap a 7800X3D permanently and make it without the south bridge because USB 4 is separate from south bridge anyway and people don’t use SATA anymore. It’s a waste of constant 10W sucking energy non stop at best. Laptops idle at 2,5W. Even simplest boards idle at 25W. When I build a different arch computer or buy a friend a laptop I check power consumption. And there is unnecessary gap between laptops and PCs. South bridge is one of the culprits.
@@RobertFeranec It's also frustrating that these companies announce very nice features and we never get to use them because motherboard manufacturers don't utilize those features. When AMD Ryzen 7000 series was released no motherboard manufacturer took notice but they made the second portion of the x16 that is x8 PCIe lane divisible down to x1. I suppose it was designed when the mining computers were booming hence the x1s. I would still use it today if I had the chance for different purposes. I like using individual PCIe slots in my virtual machines. If they are not divided in the CPU natively, it doesn't work right in the VMs. If I could design a motherboard, I'd definitely have one like that.
Wait!!! Do you want to tell that people designing PC motherboards are making less than 30 grand per year? Some of them graduated from universities(some from unreasonably expensive American universities) and they are probably required to have more then 3 to 5 years of experience... As far as I can see 30 grand per year for five to nine job with a degree and ton of experience is terrible(for Europe or US that is, for eastern Europe or China it's 4 to 6 times more than average wages)... Is it really a 5 to 9 job, or is it more like one of many projects you do simultaneously(without multitasking, just during the same year or month)?
They don't work all at the same time and they don't work all for the whole of the time of development. So there may be time when only 1 engineer is working on the project, then a firmware guy can help for couple of days etc. Also there are times when there is no need for experience person working on the project e.g writing manual or there may be time when no one is working on the project e.g. when boards are in production or are running some tests
so the complexity seems to be the firmware engineers? why? I come from a coding background so that seems unusual. Like 20 engineers for that board? you said even hundreds?
those are not univeral computers. They run application specific firware, handling communications and dsp algorithms
Please boil this down a little bit further, 386, 486, Pentium I, Pentium II.. I guess up to Pentium II a single person could probably do that.
a single person can do the schematic for all generations of processor boards. The additional staff is mechanical, layout, power supply, bios, management controller firmware, device driver software...
Geez, the level of garbage really hurts my eyes and I am really worried if these people do design modern electronics. This is just a great collection of how to not do things really. I have seen the book in PDF having the same pictures as in this video.. and really? I never seen such a poor book. Is it a random collection of keywords that was tasked to ChatGPT to write a book on it. No no no no. I will never forget this extensive nonsense.
how many motherboards or telecom boards or fpga boards have you designed?
for past 10+ years, we did about 400 sch+pcb designs (we number project sequentially), for both inhouse and external products. I do not believe a guy who can not keep consistency in hi illustrations in a book or video. Its just random bits collected and copied from internet here and there.. that is not engineering, but fakery.
@@cameramaker how many components did you have on your designs? Anything above 1000 comps requires working on many sub system block diagrams, simulation models, spreadsheets and flow charts for weeks or months, before the schematic design even starts. Hence "complex" in the title. There are other videos about microcontroller board design, that go straight to schematic.
Which book do you recommend then?