Idealism vs materialism: mind and matter
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- Ben Curry provides an in-depth history of the contrasting philosophies of idealism and materialism.
These are the two fundamental trends in philosophy, which have re-appeared in various forms throughout the history of human thought.
Marxism basis itself on a materialist outlook, which understands the material world as being an objective reality, consisting of matter in motion, governed by dynamics that are knowable and discoverable.
Idealism, in its different guises, asserts that ideas and thoughts are primary; the world around us is only an imperfect reflection of these ideas.
But what are the political implications of these differing world views?
"the church is the last bastion of idealist philosophy"
That's not correct - the abrahamic religions are explicitly dualist, believing in the material world being inhabited by the immaterial souls. If you want a look at idealism, look at Eastern philosophy/religion - Taoism, Hinduism and Buddhism to be specific (I'm sure there are others). Idealist religion is often mystical-sounding, because it doesn't gel well with our default mental patterns of top-down classification and subdivision, and thus teaching Idealist mental models is more about unlearning than about learning, and this is often done most practically through a dialectical approach, funnily enough - through presenting the antithesis to the theses of default-pattern mental models.
You should really know what you're talking about before trying to sound authoritative on the subject. I'm no expert myself but as an idealist it's pretty transparent that you've got the wrong end of the stick.
exactly what I thought... church believes that there was something before consciousness - omnipotent God, which in atheist materialist terminology you can name it Big Bang, etc.
@@antonkokic the atheist formulation of God is probably "nature" or "physics". The telos that prescribes how we must act.
The mystical traditions of the Abrahamic religions are ultimately nondual, as well, while popular Hinduism and Buddhism are often understood and practiced as dualistic by most of the layman practitioners. Apparent non-duality is particularly strong in some of those traditions too, until you dig deeper and get to the philosophy behind it. I think the dichotomy here between Eastern and Abrahamic religions is a bit exaggerated, even if it is real.
@@ammanite you're right, I was just leaning on the common understanding of how these religions are set up metaphysically to lay out my point.
Many thanks. Excellent talk.
Materialism doesn't lie at the root of all natural Science, if by materialism you mean the view that only the material exists, which is a rational deductive philosophy & not an empirical inductive Science, otherwise all Scientists would have to be materialists which they are not. One can state that Science only deals with the material or more properly the physical, whatever that is.
Natural science is actually quite realism for they want to know the "formula" or the form or "relation" of everything...Materialists believe all things materials which in the end will claim there's no such thing such eternal truth beyond matter even the "forms" are materials itself
Ok so idealism says that humans are superior because of intangible abstract concepts underpinned by mysticism, materialism says that humans are superior because of abstract concepts underpinned by bipedalism and the opposable thumb. Science says things just happen, what the hell. Is that about right?
Thanks for the good explanation! Salutations from Brazil.
Saudações, camarada
I dont know if materialism or idealism is true.. but I know either way what I directally expierience is consciousness..
Hello @SocialistAppeal
Which book does he excerpt the dialogue between the Senator and the Bishop from? I don’t get it clearly.
So does idealism imply that every individual has a unique immortal identity. If there is no unique immortal identity with a conscious memory of the past then what does it matter if idealism is true or if materialism is true? To me what matters the most is effectively managing human and environmental relationships to attain conscious satisfaction. I am inclined to think that idealism is based more on vanity and wishful thinking. And how about those Dodgers?
I think it starts to matter when you get into epistemology. Besides, if you want to claim to be a Marxist, you better affirm dialectical materialism, or you’re just some random ideologue.
Philosophical idealism is from what i know the idea that reality is conciousness experiencing itself through us. Its not that we are all individual eternal minds but one cosmic mind localised to our perspective, in short every living thing is the universe experiencing itself subjectively and there is no such thing as reality outside of conciousness. It's not totally ridiculous if you go in to the fundamental flaw in materialism which is that conciousness even existing in the materialist view of reality is as far as we know impossible. the best they have is A conciousness is an illusion which is nonsense because it is legit the only self evident component to reality or B it's some how a result of a complex arrangement of dead matter. Not saying it can't be true but if you look in to the matter there are some serious holes in materialism which is ignored and plugged with assumptions and these holes do not appear in the other theory that the universe is mind not matter.
@@alexc4159 well put.
@@alexc4159 Perfectly stated.
I very much veer towards Idealism however there is no unique immortal Identity. I personally do not see the conflict between philosophical Idealism of which there are several schools of thought and Marxism. I think it is irrelevant. There is nothing supernatural, magical or mystical about Idealism and it does not deny science, evolution or the laws of nature.
37.44 !!!
I would prescribe 7g of magic mushrooms for this guy.
Can't I find a video that doesn't strawman the opposing view, so that I can make up my mind about this. I'm more on the side of idealism, and this pushed me more in that direction.
Yes buddy you're right. Watch a documentary called 'The simulation Hypothesis' its on RUclips. Materialism has been empirically falsified more times than you would care to count now. Idealism is the most congruent consistant ontology with unparalleled explanatory power. Just watch the docu and you wont have to think about it anymore even if many continue to insist the world is flat Just see the science for yourself. To a non biased non cognitively dissonant mind the answer is clear as Day. So you can start then putting your attention on more important things 😂
@@lioneye108 lmao okay dumbass
@@alexp8785 yeah Great point. Wonderful, intelligent and thought provoking. You really do demonstrate the powerful arguments materialism has to offer. Thanks.
I was going to comment on said straw fellow. The ideological folks on both sides seem to miss the forest with all the trees in the way. But such is what mysticism and non-dual consciousness is all about recognizing. Admittedly, the limitations of language and required unbiased imagination often sound like appeal to the supernatural.
@@lioneye108 ruclips.net/video/pznWo8f020I/видео.html
You're going to give serious philosophical lecture, and that's the shirt you decide to wear?
yo, maybe he's also a magician and a big fan of the 2000's aesthetic, don't juge dat quick
a t-shirt makes complete sense to me
Dominic “serious philosophical discussion, comrade? I should certainly bloody hope not, especially not with all these prospective members about”
“Yes, they might start thinking for themselves rather than follow the party policy”
Personally, I really like his homemade T-shirt.
It's the "Death Card" that Hitmen leave at their Kills.
Skull within the Ace of Spades. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_of_spades
"The Ace of Spades (also known as the Spadille and Death Card [1]) is traditionally the highest and most valued card in the deck of playing cards in English-speaking countries. The card has found use as a symbol in war, as well as in asexuality."
Perfect Marxist representation of Militant Revolution and Asexuality.
'idears', 'eviloution'
Yeah. That mispronunciation always annoys me too.
"A" should not be pronounced "R."
I find it hard to debate materialism - if idealism was right, unconsciousness wouldnt really be a possibility. If everything is consciousness, then how can one be unconscious? And we've clearly established the link between mind and brain. I'm sorry, but idealism is wrong. Humanity needs to decide what it wants to do now that all religion and even spirituality is false.
ruclips.net/video/p7eI9bxYaOU/видео.html
I read your comment and thought of the video linked above. Give it a listen, if you’re interested. I’d love to hear what you think.
It may not be what it seems. According to materialism everything you directally expierience is just a mind generated simulation of the actual real physical world.
When you sit in a room, the room you see and experience is not litterally the actual room. Its a copy of the room your mind has made up. Even your body that you expierience is mind generated and not the true phyical body.
Good lecture. But I think he made a strawman out of 'new-atheism'. It is not a political ideology in anyway. it is simply a response to the philosophical and empirical question of the existence of a deity.
Idealism makes way more sense
@riikerman thats called materialist circular reasoning. You are using materialist assumptions in defense of materialism. 🤦🏽♂️🤦🏽♂️. Think before you speak.
@riikerman ok so you've edited your response to say something completely different to your original post which was suggesting that because planet earth existed before humans it could not be secondary to mind hence my highlighting of your materialist circular reasoning as such line of thinking pre-assumes you need a human in order for mind to be present which is exactly what idealism argues against! 💁🏽♂️.
What your comment now States however, is "Only if you think planet earth is not a material object" to which I respond: "well duh!" of course thats what I think! That is the whole argument of idealism - that the universe is ultimately mental in Nature! That ideas are primary! You've made No point here whatsoever - you've Just Said "idealism only makes more sense if you believe in idealism". Right. Thank you. I would agree idealism makes more sense yes. And quantum physics also attests to the understanding that physical reality isn't really physical at all so indeed what we call 'physical', planet earth included is merely an inference to the subjective experience of mental processes from our point of view. So now we know the earth indeed ISN'T a material object, this means as you quite rightly emphasize - Idealism makes way more sense.
Glad you agree.
@riikerman goodness me. You dont get it do you. I already explained how this line of thinking is circular reasoning. You are ASSUMING that mind is a product of the brain and using that as an argument to defend your assumption that mind is produced by the brain! No. That is a non argument in the same way that "the Bible is the Word of God because it says so in the Bible" is also a non argument. Idealism assumes mind first and physical phenomena as the external manifestation OF mind. It is not solopsism and it does not require a human mind to exist at all. Do more research.
Materialism has been refuted experimentally in quantum physics, near death studies and ESP studies. Materialism is also an appeal to magic as it proposes consciousness magically appears as a result of mindless interactions of matter for which there is no evidence nor any theory that cam adequately explain the mechanisms of such a phenomena. This is called 'the hard problem of consciousness'. Idealism removes this problem. All we have are correlations in brain activity and subjective experience which is exactly what we would expect to see under an idealist model. You dont understand idealism and looks like you haven't thought deeply enough about the claims of physicalism either.
@riikerman yes the universe as a ghost is a fair metaphorical statement. It fits right in with quantum mechanics and theories about holographic universe.
@riikerman there is a documentary on RUclips called 'The Simulation Hypothesis'. Go watch it.
aa
Neither Materialism nor Idealism, but Neo-Realism. Read Markus Gabriel.
Nope. Idealism.
@riikerman yeah again your materialist assumptions are not valid arguments for materialism. I don't think you understand idealism properly - go check out Bernado Kastrup he Will clear some things up for you.
So to clear things up, here is materialist ignorance in action: "consciousness is produced by the brain. Before the brain there was No consciousness so matter is obviously not dependant on consciousness". Its quite embarrassing that so called intelligent people attest to such flawed reasoning. You May as well say "the Bible is the Word of God because it says so in the Bible" The line of reasoning here is identical. The argument simplified is thus: "consciousness is produced by matter so matter cant be produced by consciousness because consciousness is produced by matter". Circular reasoning is not an argument people - it is merely a demonstration of ones own inability to think critically about ideas and if you suffer from such ignorance then please steer well clear of philosophy cos it ain't your cup of tea.
Idealism States that the universe itself is the consequence of larger mental processes in the same way brain activity is the image of smaller individual mental processes. We do not need any living organisms in the universe present in order for idealism to remain a robust explanation for physical phenomena. Whilst accounting for everything that physicalism can account for it also accounts for, reconciles and even predicts many of the deep anomolies that physicalism holds no power to explain i.e. Behaviour of Quantum particles, the hard problem of consciousness and all the scientific data that demonstrates the reality of psi phenomena such as ESP, OBEs, telepathy etc.
In all, idealism is a far stronger ontology in terms of explanatory power for the Nature of reality and a theory of everything. If you wish to go deeper see the work of Bernado Kastrup. Materialism is on its last legs as it has already been empirically falsified on more than one occasion and what we are dealing with now within the scientific communities is an issue of psychology as opposed to epistemology whereby proponents of an idea are simply unable to let it go in spite of all the evidence that demands they do so as their sense of identity and belonging is far too deeply entenched in the idea itself. This is typical human behaviour and we see it everywhere within human culture and throughout human history. The evidence by this point however is far far too strong and if science is to keep its integrity, remain scientific and progress forward, ultimately physicalism/materialism has a max shelf life of 30 years remaining. But I doubt it Will last that long as for all of our ignorance, I do believe most of us are smarter than that.
What a ridiculous straw man of idealism.
Heil Stalin! But seriously, It's a really good lecture.
i guess it's quite off topic but does anybody know a good website to watch new series online?
@Raiden Franco i watch on Flixzone. Just search on google for it =)
@Raiden Franco Try FlixZone. Just google for it :)
@Raiden Franco I watch on FlixZone. You can find it on google :)
@Lane Drake definitely, have been watching on Flixzone for since march myself :)
Needs to work on presentation skills, a lot, imediately
Materialism is false and Idealism is true. Consciousness exists, is irreducible, and has causal powers hence there are pressures of various sorts that push materialists either in the direction of outright eliminativism or in the direction of an explicit form of dualism (Kim, 1989). To learn more check out: *The Case for Monistic Idealism*
Yes, the consciousness exists as the product of different complex material units that produce one's self awareness. Take a specific brain part out and you do not have a consciousness any longer. And If I throw a stone at you, you can imagine it is a snow ball but still it will be a stone that had hit you.
Consciousness is not the product of different complex material units that produce one's self awareness. Consciousness is not emergent. Consciousness is irreducible and fundamental to reality itself. The stone is not "material", it and everything in existence is fundamentally mental.
Monistic Idealism So if I were to hit you with the stone, you ignoring the stone would change the reality? Now, if your consciounsess is before your material body, which is contradictory, why would you need body in the first place and why were you not able to express it before materialization? And even if you say that is product of an idea in the mind of creator, that means that your creator is materialistic as well. And when you imagine something that something exists in your mind and is shaped by your will, while we do what is necessary or we do not do nothing, therefore denoucing any idealistic idea.
Drug Crni Wrong. The stone is real, it's just that the stone is mental along with everything else in existence. What you call your body is one with your mind. There is no "physical" or "matter". There is only one fundamental substance (monism) and that substance is the mental (idealism).
So If I were to hit you with the stone, and you denied its existance, imagening that it was not there, the stone would not hit you? So if the stone is mental, then it can be controled by your mind, and if it cannot be controled by your mind then it is not mental. And if you say it is a mental projection of an godlike being, then you are too, and a mental projection is nothing than a projection of ones thought or desire, and it has no self-consciousness. And if you have self-consciousness, that is to decide what will you do or wont, to question and to think ( I think therefore I am ), then you act by the material conditions around you ,denieng any part of idealistic thought. A stone will be a stone no matter what you think of it.
Idealism and materialism are quite intertwined. Your limbic system is very much idealistic, but its still a part of your brain. And thats for a very good evolutionary and necessary reason. If you choose to ignore that and go for absolute materialism, you are doomed to be absolutely miserable. Communism is getting ahead of itself always. Its like putting a newborn baby in fifth grade. The big problem with it its that in its essence its absolutely idealistic and really a "modern" substitution for religion. Neither one works or have worked in the past. They are like very beautiful paintings of heavenly gardens and progressively ordered societies. Capitalism is like a standard mirror. What you should be worried about is what you see in it and not complain how much you prefer seeing a beautiful painting . Honestly, I don't like most of what i see lately. Its just too flashy. Maybe because of all the selfies. Lets face it. People can be shitty and amazing . That have always been and always will be the case. Personally i think mankind is in its early teenage years. We need more time to face reality. In the meantime it will be good to prolong human life so we can think a bit further into the future. Thats what we need. Time. If we have it it would be nice. If not, tough shit we are screwed and thats that. I actually wrote a much better comment before this one, but i accidentally cancled it and i got mad and it probably shows in what i wrote above. Its just late and I'm done with this.
How is the limbic system idealist lmao did u watch the first two minutes of the video
@@alexp8785 he is assuming a completely different definition of idea which is not metaphysical or as deep.
stop thinking we come from animals
No.