Muay Thai Bones Podcast ep 26 - Cloaking Sexuality in the Gym, Turtle & The Dragon, MMA in Lumpinee
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- Опубликовано: 17 ноя 2024
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The conversation on sexuality was incredibly interesting and insightful. These are the kinds of discussions I don't really hear often from fighters in Thailand, or America for that matter, but they are important to have. Keep up the great work Sylvie!
Timestamp @ 08:22
Such an interesting conversation! I know what you mean about castration in the gym. I had rarely reflected on it, but I've often felt the low hum of compromising who I am to be taken seriously and not be pigeonholed as a 'gym mom' etc. I also recall some women being written off as 'here to flirt, not train' by other women in the gym. In my experience the presence of a female instructor (in Western gyms) greatly neutralises the 'other-ing' of women. Hard to find these places in practice. Thanks for talking about this!
I was training at Lanna during the emergence of Nong Toom (The ladyboy Nak Muay) ..... That was an eye-opening time with regard to gender issues in North Thailand. By the way, Nong Toom fought as trans at Lumpinee circa 1998.
As a queer woman getting into muay thai, the RUclips algorithm really came through for me.
Love these two crazy people! ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Your work is incredible and the most informative Martial Arts oriented video journalism I've seen in my 35 years as a martial artist.
Massive love and respect!
Interesting and good convo. Thanks guys. I was scrolling through your channel looking for some psychology stuff regarding fighting and landed on this. I’m a dude. I train and fight in Wa, USA. Thanks Sylvia for your contribution to the game. And helping newer fighters like me.
I love and learn so much from all the MT Bones podcasts. Of all of the other podcasts and vlogs, this was so far the most eye-opening and useful to me at this time. Especially since I have been thinking about going to Thailand to train. I am so glad I learned about the "gym etiquette" and cultural norms for a Western female fighter going into a Thai gym. I tend to be very service-oriented and like helping others. So I would definitely be conscious of that going into a Thai gym because I don't want to be labeled and boxed into a "gym mother" or "maid category".
Thank you for this information and insight! Especially you Sylvie, for sharing your own experiences.
"Cloaking my sexuality" goes against the very nature of who I am as a person with a strong-willed, independent personality. But from a pure survival perspective, I get why it is necessary within the Thai Muay Thai gym culture. I hate that it has to be this way and in all honesty, it does piss me off a little. But as a visitor to that environment, I will decide to respect it.
Yea, as a fellow introvert, we can be very extroverted when in our space and with the people we're comfortable with. But we also need alone time to recharge after spending time with people. We're NOT shy, we just get our energy a different way than extroverts.
1:38:06 It's the same with appreciating paintings. People would love to know exactly how to appreciate paintings. It makes a huge difference when someone teaches you.
Omg I came here for a talk to meditate on in my own practice, and the second it plays I have this cute couple in for parasocial dinner party conversation? Yes please.
Literally my first MuayThai Bones podcast!
I know I'm (very) late to the party, but this is a deeply refreshing conversation to listen to. It's hard to find people who are at all versed in how gender works in the martial arts world, much less knowledgeable about transness and how it complicates everything with another layer!
As a trans woman & martial artist, thank you for this!!
This is the second time I have come around to this podcast episode. Last time was about a year ago. I’m now training in Thailand, have been for about 3 weeks. At my home gym I have been sexualized a lot and even by my coach. I would often get comments about my body and my couch would use a weird term about how I have “nice hamstring development”. I am a heavier chested younger woman, and this seemed to be noticeable, even in just a lose shirt.. I wear spandex shorts to train. I honestly never thought much about it when I was younger and maybe that’s the naivety. But when you say in this video, you have to turn that off in order to get where you wanna go, I completely understand that. It’s unfortunate because much of the time I’d like to fit in, and it’s harder for me to connect sometimes, so maybe being playful sometimes comes across as flirting. I also will note, in Thailand I go to a gym that has a lot of westerners and Europeans coming to do beginner classes. I have noticed however, because I am more curvy, I will get a comment about what I’m wearing vs a girl who doesn’t have as much curves. Someone can wear something that’s light weight in the heat of Thailand but I cannot, or if I do it’s seen as more promiscuous. I love fighting more than anything. I have never put as many hours into anything in my life. But it seems I need to turn off a part of myself maybe to get to where I need to be. Thanks for this conversation. I love how much you guys bounce off of each other and reiterate one another’s opinion. Thanks !
I just found your page through 8 limbs in Philadelphia Pa...
Been following ! Remember when 100 fights was the big deal
Y’all don’t know me but I got mad love for both of you !
Glad to hear you two echo my sentiments on ONE Championships announcing. I get that one is a kickboxing guy and the other is an MMA guy, but then they have the MMA guy doing the technical analysis for Muay Thai fights and the result is exactly what you would expect.
Was this podcast moved somewhere else? Anybody knows how do I get the next episode?
Heeey, i used to be in your patreon 3 years ago, and your helped me soooo much, i kinda just trained everything you trained and showed from the old masters, and kept searching for them to learn more ..i just oicked it up again, so obviously i serched for you. Thank you so much for your time amd effort to teach everyone whos interested ❤🌞🌈🌝😎...my name is Ian 😊...good luck! And ill see if i join again later , just meed to get back to where i was first 🙈🤞🏽...have an awesome day!
Thank you for the video. Very interesting... At my gym I'm staying who I am. I'm a girly girl, wear the girly clothes and act the same as any other places. But when the training starts I'm a fighter and treat every person the same.... I'll kick you the same, man or woman. I wouldn't allow anyone treat me as inferior because I'm a woman of 48. Our instructor doesn't make a difference between men or women we are all in the same bag and we get as good as we give from him which is great and respect to him ...
I love these
Podcasts thank you! And your relationship is really nice to see too. I am in North America right now and I had an issue with a guy who I was dating for a short time telling me that my fighting made me too much of a boy.‘needless to say he didn’t last long, but it’s been weird dating guys as a female fighter…and i am also typically the only girl in my gym training Muay Thai. so you guys are very inspiring and this is really good for me to hear, I’m not alllooone!
We Do like you 2 crazy people 🤪
I either listen in the car with my son or whilst operating heavy machinery at work. If I lose a limb, blame Muay Thai bones.
I feel nothing is worth losing your natural disposition. Nothing. You lose you identity, your internal equilibrium and stay restless and lost your whole life.
Muay Thai is a sport. It should not be taken as a way of life by any means. Life is about moderation I get.
I've sensed this from girls in gyms I've been to. I've wondered about this
I’m digging the kaay muay v gym topic and the points about contracted fighters. More of that please. I think the “entertainment” chon muay is as much for Thai spectators as it is tourists/non Thai audiences. Your average Thai doesn’t go to or watch stadium Muay Thai (only gamblers) and there are very little or no thai fans that watch the major stadium events. Upcountry promotions of “real” 5 round Muay Thai, then more so.
Please add timestamps, so its easier for people who don't have 2.5 hours to skip to the parts they are interested in.
such a great podcast, much love from Thailand💖
This is interesting. In our training group we keep things as neutral and nonsexual as possible with the men and women in a fairly natural not trying to hard way. The only we care about is just results and improvement regardless of who u are. So hearing this perspective of our training environments is enlightening.
This is _soooo_ fucken
_AWESOME!_
It's literally like 'The Spiritual Implications Of Quantum Mechanics, As Seen Through The Universal Lens Of Muay Thai.'
I may have said this already, but it's worth repeating; I am no Muay Thai expert, but I can tell you that after two days of watching your videos, I am beginning to believe it is the most subtle, nuanced martial art on earth. It is not perfect ( there are gender issues that particularly impact female fighters, to use an example that ties in to the theme herein), but what strikes me is this: _even with these issues and imperfections, Muay Thai is still the best way for you, a woman of exceptional intelligence and perceptive depth, and a woman of exceptional physical strength and skill (both of which are qualities that are almost universally denied as even being possible in most human cultures on this planet), to express your innate identity and your true self!_
That is straightup amazing. What is even more amazing is the way in which you fuse all these disparate qualities into a presence that is called 'masculine,' but which I see as an incredibly pure example of the _Dominant Feminine_ . This is a persona that is nearly never given serious consideration because it is always classified as a subset of masculinity.
I do not think it is. I really think the Female Dominant identity is a thing unto itself, not a subset of anything but instead one of the pure sources from which female energy flows.
I mean, seriously😱🤣, I watch your fights and you are dominant even when you lose! You're still recognized as a true pioneer and a high level talent of Muay Thai. You are the only fighter of any martial art of any gender of any national origin, who produces such amazing video gems of epistemological brilliance. Nobody does this shit, _nobody!_ I have learned, in two days, more about what Muay Thai really is, and about the depths of Thai culture, than I could have done in three months of actually studying the subject elsewhere. Wanna know what that is?
_Dominance_ yo! Natural, uncontrived pure female dominance that is fer crapsake even educational!🤜💥🤛😂
Impressive.
Regarding the last topic: it feels as though MT fighters (and those of us who watch fights with knowledge) will need a 'safe haven' where traditional matches are still the whole event card.
Great podcast 🙏🏻
Shit..now I gotta look up turtle and dragon parable for the whole story..Great podcast btw
www.gratitudeseeds.com/the-buddha-and-the-beggar/
From a boise idaho news paper in 1952 'SIAMESE FOOT BOXERS Worad Khoonwongse and Chalerm Amatayakul will introduce their rugged sport to Boise fans Monday night at Riverside Arena in an added attraction to the regular weekly wrestling card. The combatants wear FOUR ONCE GLOVES and their feet, wrapped in cotton bindings, are an essential part of their equipment, along with their heads, hands, elbows. I think I personally like both. For the large swathe of fights, I want to see 8 ounce gloves. For 'Prestige' fights you could watch it in 4 oz gloves. I think everything from the ring, the clothing, the technique, rules have evolved over the last 100 years. AS I understand it, boxing gloves started to be used instead of bindings because it was easier and the rest of the ring sports ie, Boxing used them with the ring.
I am a feminine woman and determined to be my full self and not pretend to pass as more masculine and hard. (But failing a lot, damn it’s hard)
I feel like the need to pass goes beyond Muay Thai but Muay Thai is a great vehicle to explore the tru vulnerability of being your full self.
Interesting… the protective shell is maybe a pretend masculine shield versus your true self.
Just a comment on MMA in Lumpinee, as an MMA fan. I think Kevin gets it with the tiers of competition when it comes to ONE fc and UFC. I’m not sure if Kevin is missing that maybe this pricing out Thais is how this fails, especially if they try to make it a regular thing. Sure per fan, a tourist might spend more money that one time they go visit, but how often will that tourist go?
If I was in Thailand (as a tourist), and the only thing going on in Lumpinee was MMA (again, as an MMA fan) I’m not sure that I’d go. I’d try to find somewhere else to watch actual Muay Thai. Even if the competition was lower level, because I understand that the level of MMA competition wouldn’t really be that high.
Watching MMA in Lumpinee would feel to me like being in Mexico and going to Taco Bell. 😂
Hi Sylvie when is your next clinic ! It been a while since I trained and I would like to attend
I don’t make sexual jokes to the girls in the gym I treat them the same
How much kratom and ganj did you all imbibe in before making this cast? I love it!
I NEED that Dieselnoi t-shirt
You guys should most definitely build a little gym
It’ll be a turning point for Sylvie to express herself in a space where she can be the boss in every sense
Every day before class, I usually change a few times out of what's natural and my choice to wear, because I'm so worried and self conscious about how the guys perceive me, since I'm the only women most days, let alone trans woman.
And I don't really commit to bjj or mma because I don't wanna grapple really... One of the first bjj classes I went to, I just got such a vibe off one of the guys I rolled with.
Really appreciated this talk, and yeah, the paradox of being a trans woman into "tough" things and having to fight extra hard to be seen as a woman is VERY REAL. Maybe I pass when I walk in the gym, then that goes poof when they see me fight, but through effort I've gained respect, but respect doesn't mean they respect my gender, necessarily.
@2:26. They did a 2 v 1 fight already in 2009 😂with Saenchai
At lumpini
The thing is though Sylvie, if I was a regular at the same gym as you and I knew how much of a badass you are, it wouldnt phase me for a second if you projected a yodmuay badass energy. I would almost expect it. Maybe its something specific to Thailand or Thai gyms.
We have the same problem in Japan with female aikido players but, somehow, this patriarchal prejudice and consequent response among women to train as hard or even harder than the men only seems to make the problem worse. Why should women be pseudo-men..?
Conservative views does probably not seem so bad when it touches a subject that one is caring deeply about. But it is still conservative views. If you ask the old former elites they will tell you muay thai has alrrady taken a path far away from its former self. Like the stylistic differences in the golden era compared to modern day fights, with all the clinching. I love clinching, but it is still a big change from the techniqual more active striking styles from the past. It is what it is and it will be what it will be I guess. Still love muay thai, modern and classic.
It is like with Hip Hop. The old people will say hip hop is dead. But if you try to look trough the conservative eyes you will see it is alive and well. not just on the big stages. but the music and the culture is there as it always was, beautiful as ever. just ask Joey Badass and The Underachievers.
Where ever i go, i just dont care what people think, some dont know if im straight, gay, bi or abstinent 😂i like it that way....i know what i do and what i can do, thats enough for me and just try to talk to anyone who i see they think of me as a threat o otherwise., Just try to be friendly with anyone and dont give a sh*t...thats just me😋🤷...sorry for anyone who has to castrate their anything 😕...things are changing 🙃
I don't believe for lumpinee is to have mma fights there. Yes, apparently and disappointlingly till be wearng mma glove, maybe even 6 oz gloves. ONE is a multi discipline promotion. I don't think Thais are going to come watch a wrestling match. A whole new cream of the crop fighters making their way up the rankings. Their ranking system is no more corrupt than Thailand. I'm trying to think positive.I think having MMA in Thailand would be an affront to the peoples heritage, like making cricket America's new enforces game. One will stll have a show every6-8 weeks on its 122 channels around the world. I don't even think they KNOW all the details of what is going to happen in Lumpinee. I mean if it's ok to fight with binded rope, there isn't much difference in 2 ounces except the leather mars the face up unless you are Taiwanchai. haha
MmA is already in Lumpinee, on the Fairtex Promotion on Saturday mornings.
@@8limbsUs bizzaro world.
I believe it was Judith Butler who famously wrote that "gender is performative". It is something that obviously makes people upset but at the same time it can feel empowering for aspiring trans fighters. I don't know this Angie of which you speak but she seems to take the performative aspect and turns it on its head, deciding basically what she can or cannot be. At least that's what it sounds like.
I am, for all intents and purposes, cis-male and am quite comfortable among males but I do think with wonder about what the world would be like sometimes if men and women could compete in the same sports, perhaps with an open gender division just how certain sports have open weight divisions.
Super interesting.
💯👍
เอฟซีครับ
In my experience, women at Mt gyms are flirts. I physically stop interacting with them and almost stopped training with them. This is my job. Work is work.