What are some differences between Reformed theology and Eastern Orthodoxy?
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2025
- What are some of the key theological differences between Reformed Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy? From one of our live Ask Ligonier events, Stephen Nichols identifies several areas of disagreement.
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The difference is Orthodoxy is correct and Reformed theology is wrong.
I wish this video was an hour long and not 3 minutes. There's a lot of good content that could come out of this topic, and it's too big of a question to answer in such a short time. I have a few EO friends, and as a Reformed Christian it would be helpful to have more content on this.
oh man, expecting a lot of “we are the one true apostolic church established by Christ and the apostles,“ comments 😅
Lol. My thoughts as well. Eastern Mysticism
Dear brother, I would encourage you to dive a bit deeper into the formation of the cannon, and the exegesis of the early church fathers. You might find that you can learn something from the Bishops who were only one or two lifetimes away from Christ. Some were discipled by John himself. It is worth asking yourself at that point, does this faith match my own and if not, why not? Were Christians wrong for 1500 years before Martin Luther came and "corrected" the cannon? Why do we have a bible in the first place? Why was it necessary when the Jews did not have an official cannon?
@@aheadofmetal the Jews absolutely had an official canon. Why would you make that assertion unless you actually didn't know that their canon was the Scriptures used by Christ and the apostles. Surely you have heard of the septugent. That was the defacto canon, and the various books are still in use today.
@@joshhigdon4951 No they didnt. In the second temple period, different jewish sects held to different collections of what they considered authoritative texts (ex pharisees, sadducees, essenes, zealots and sumaritains). It wasnt until after the destruction of the temple in 70ad that the pharisees codified their cannon and founded rabbinic judaism.
Ill raise my question again but be more specific this time. How do you know that the 27 books of the New Testament are divinely inspired authoritative word of God?
@@aheadofmetal I am puzzled why you mention the 27 books of the New Testament. Eastern Orthodoxy holds to the same 27 books and only those 27 as belonging in the NT.
An american offering the observation that EO is more of a cultural religion rather than a heartfelt convictional religion is really a bit too much.
This was my exact reaction as well. Amazing that he could judge for himself who is truly a Christian or not probably to countries he’s never himself even been to or spoken to the people.
Its not that far off. My family is from Russia and from what I know you can ask any secular person you know about their religion and they will say "Orthodox" because they were baptized as infants and wear a cross around their neck, but not know a single thing about Christian beliefs. I also know people from Arab countries who consider themselves culturally "Muslim", but have have no problem eating bacon and sipping alcohol at dinner.
@@AlexKazakovaxkazakovWhile there are many cultural Orthodox in the southern Us there’s mostly baptists or non denoms. Protestantism is cultural for most people here.
So, yeah, the Eastern formulae is a little off. Maybe this is a reasonable correction:
He Who was fully God became also fully man so that we who are fallen man might become redeemed man, or fully man - or fully human beings as we were originally created to be, as opposed to corrupted human beings. And being fully human means fulfilling our primary purpose, which is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.
To be more succinct: God became man so that man could become LIKE God.
In the original Greek there is no definite article for the second god, so it’s not a proper noun. The notion from Athanasius was that man would become greater than he is in his fallen sin sick state, but less than God. Though exiled on multiple occasions (an understatement), I don’t think he was ever censured by a theological authority or council and is still well regarded today.
Is this the BEST Ligonier can do? They don't even give a basic definition of the EO correctly! WOW!
Def could use some more depth on this though I am guessing there is maybe a longer segment.
My reading indicates that Deification is a different way of looking at Sanctification. They say, "Deification," and use the jingle Dr Nichols cited because Scripture tells us to become more like Christ. Therefore, Deification is primarily a difference of emphasis rather than a disagreement over the meaning of any Scripture (although Eastern hermeneutics are much different). Am I mistaken?
So a question after listening. Do you think there are genuine believers in the Orthodox church?
“It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which,if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship” - CS Lewis
“gods by Grace” - this isn’t an inference to some kind of wildly heretical notion that we as mere humans could ever know God in His essence the way the Persons of the Holy Trinity do rather this is simply observing the Biblical FACT that👇
“The son of God became man so that man might become god [by grace]”.
-st. athanasius
Or a more palatable translation (for the reformed thinker) of this quote might look like this:
He (Jesus) became what we are that He might make us what He is.
2 Corinthians 8:9
New King James Version
9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.
Various forms of Christianity are largely cultural, in the US even. Seems like an apples to oranges comparison.
There is only one "form" of true christianity. Salvation comes through Christ alone through faith alone.
@@joshhigdon4951 perhaps I should have used the word theology?
I think you are right that all sorts of forms of Christianity are largely cultural. But some have this more than others, and Eastern Orthodoxy has it in spades.
@@CalderaFinance makes more sense. No doubt cultures make a difference in how we present, while maintaining the same worldview. For instance, I can visit the Ugandan Anglican church and be welcomed as a brother in every way imaginable because of our shared and common faith. Though their culture is much different than mine, it isnt a point of division. But if I were to go to a Oneness Pentecostal church, I may share a common culture, but our worldviews are not in line, and I wouldn't be considered a brother. And rightfully so because unitarians are not of the true church.
@@maxaplin4204 you hit the nail on the head. Chanting pleasing man listening to tons of different writers and priests or whatever. Very impersonal much like the Do this don't do that dead no relationship religion of ancient Israel which made a shell and a mockery of YHVHs Torah.
How widespread is reading & interpretation of scripture in EO?
Go to our services which are basically reading scripture. Protestantism can't hold a candle to the Orthodox.
Good Points.
A lot of Eastern Orthodox are gonna be upset that he implied their doctrines are not “heart felt convictions”.
Awe poor little babies
What a snowflake 😅😅😅
@@ItalicusHammer I'm not Eastern Orthodox
@italicusHammer Behave, autist
It's basically just a really poor fallacious argumentive attack on the Orthodox. Ligonier is terrible at actually defending 'the faith.' One reason I am no longer baptist. All people need to research for themselves what the Orthodox is...... don't trust biast sources that have no idea what they're talking about with all due respect
It’s true though. Many people have become Catholic or Orthodox because of their culture .
Okay. So, if the 2nd commandment was not violated when God Himself instructed Moses to build Seraphim on the Arc of the covenant which was in the holiest of holies, and was given veneration in the OT, how are orthodox violating the 2nd commandment today?
The Ark of the Covenant was not an icon. It was God’s throne on earth.
EO Icons are not God’s throne on earth. They are pictures of God and they are not part of earliest Christian practice
@@Jordan18561They are found in early synagogues of the first two centuries AD. Icons are windows into heaven similar to how Moses carved cherubim on the Ark.
@ decorative art in churches and synagogues are not the same as icons
Moses didn't venerate the cherubim by kissing them
@ But they did. They bowed before the carvings of cherubim. Icons are literally carvings of Christ and sanctified believers.
@@deacon6221 show me in Scripture where it says they bowed before the carvings.
as an orthodox christian you would not even bow before carvings because Orthodoxy doesn't make use of 3D Icons.
Reformed theology reminds me of 2 Tim 3:7
Hawayu Ligonier Ministries *& I Appreciate Pst. Stephen Nichols 4 Answering This Powerful, Blessful, Deep Question on "What are Some of The Differences Between Reformed Theology & Eastern Orthodoxy ?"Where What Pst. Stephen Nichols Has Said Is Veryyyyyy, Veryyyyyy Ryt One 💯% Where Pst. Stephen Nichols Has Taught Me The Differences Between Reformed Theology & Eastern Orthodoxy Which are:- 1. The Reformed Theology Don't Use Icins In Their Praise & Worship While The Eastern Orthodoxy Does & 2. The Reformed Theology Uses Liturgy In Their Church Services While Tge Eastern Orthodoxy Doesn't 4 I Have Been Blessed So Veryyyyyy, Veryyyyyy Much Pst. Stephen Nichols* & May Our Great Almighty God Bless Yu Pst. Stephen Nichols & Ligonier Ministries So Veryyyyy, Veryyyyyy Much.🙏🙏🕊️🕊️
Eastern split in like the 600s, Reformed in the 1500s.
Eastern split over power, namely the primacy of the roman bishop.
Reformed over theology.
BIt more complicated, plus the schism happened officially in 1054. One could argue that the Papal declaration that the Filioque should be officially inserted into the Nicaean creed in 1014 set in motion the schism, it was really just the spear tip that ruptured the loose unity. I think it was more about the roman bishop's desire to rule as emperor of both civil and religious realms. It isn't easy to share authority with others. Totalitarianism is always more efficient for those on the throne. But the church up till then had always been ruled by episcopal governance: the college of Bishops, despite Roman's assertions, was not chaired by Rome. St. Clement of Rome's letters clearly states there were other leaders (aka what the Presbyterians call a session) who led the local assemblies there in the city.
You are confusing EO with the Church of the East, they are the ones that split from the universal church in 431 at the Council of Ephesus over a theological dispute concerning the title of Mary as the mother of God.
The eastern orthodox and west (catholic) split in 1054 in the Great Schism.
The reformation branches off from the western catholic church, and not from the eastern church.
600's? Better reread your church history!
1) Apostolic theology vs. Reformed European theology.
2) to the point of it being “cultural” but “not heartfelt” Yes, you may find that in each parish, but you can find that in Reformed churches too. In the East, each church might have its own culture based on where in the world it’s people are from. So, an Antiochian church will have a different flavor than a Greek or Ethiopian church. But it’s theology is the same, with a small difference in how the liturgy works.
Reformed theology and worship is more like a classroom than a practical training ground for saints. Reformed worship keeps the worshiper in a room on earth, while Orthodox worship elevates the worshiper to participate in the perpetual worship in heaven.
Just read Revelation. What is worship like in heaven? It’s more similar to what we find in Leviticus than what we find in most Reformed denominations. Orthodox worship is a revealed, or might I say Reformed version of Levitical worship in the Old Testament. The veil is torn, communion with God is restored, Christ reigns.
The apostles taught that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone, does the eastern orthodox church teach that? I doubt it
@@e.t.h.559 prove it.
@@e.t.h.559 Luther added “alone” in “faith alone.” That didn’t exist prior to the 1500s. In fact he wanted to remove the epistle of James bc James taught that we are NOT saved by faith alone.
If you mean that faith is necessary to receive the grace God offers, then yes. Grace is not irresistible. It can be rejected. It is ONLY BY FAITH that one can receive the grace necessary to be justified and sanctified. The Orthodox teach that we are saved by grace alone- through faith in Jesus Christ alone, glory to God alone.
But not scripture alone. The reason is that everybody did not have a Bible they could read until the printing press was invented. Faith was learned via worship. All 5 senses were used to communicate the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is why icons are used. They are like pictures in children’s books that help the message come alive. Also the use of the body in worship draws the heart and mind closer to God more than if we were just hearing or reading a passage. This is what ancient Christians meant and mean today when they use the word “Tradition.” Even Paul, when writing to the Thessalonians, “brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our SPOKEN WORD or by our LETTER.” So, it was not just something written down (scripture), but ALSO spoken tradition of the New Testament Church, which Paul the Apostle handed down. That is why you can go to Ephesus today and find them worshiping the same way they did when Paul showed them, and left Timothy as their Bishop to keep it going.
So yes, Grace Alone (through faith), Christ Alone, Glory to God Alone
@@JoshAlicea1229 😅😅😅😅😅
What a crazy fantasy and strawman
So transubstantiation has gone trans worshipping? 😅😅😅😅
Wow
Eastern Orthodox is more cultural than anything they had 50 million sects based on idiotic superficial inane arguments, most of which were wiped out by Turks and muslims as all they all wanted was power. All you fake cornballs claim to be the expert because you ignore the bible and make up your own religions 😅 for 1700 years.
👍👍👍
The Bible sprang from the Orthodox Catholic Church.
The various reformed traditions sprang from the Bible.
☦️
Eastern Orthodoxy isn't Orthodox.
What?
eastern greek is a good alternative name
He is incorrect. It is not "so we become divine as is capital G for God." Rather, the oldest Church with roots from Christ Himself, the Orthodox Church, believes that verse is true and what Jesus meant by the verse He was quoting from the OT was "ya shall be as gods" lowercase "g". This is a doctrine within the gospel meaning that God Himself dwells IN us and healing us and being in koinonia (greek for communion) with us by His energy NOT His essence.
Even though Orthodox Church gets many things wrong, it does get certain things way better and clearer that Reformed Calvinists do.
One of such matter is the concept of Sheol/Hades, of what happened to people before Christ and what Christ accomplished.
Reformed Calvinists generally believe that Jesus took the wrath of His own God the Father upon Himself 2000 years ago, thus satisfying divine justice. This is utterly false belief.
Orthodox Christians understand that what happened 2000 years ago was something fundamentally different. Jesus descended into Sheol/Hades which is the kingdom of darkness where all people went after Adam and Eve tasted the fruit, to defeat the forces of Satan and take the keys from that place to Himself and then to release some saints who were there.
😅😅😅😅😅
What goofy cult are you in strawman Sally 😅
Like what?