As a disenfranchised mormon, but out of my commitment to academic integrity, both Oliver Cowdrey and Martin Harris returned to the mormon faith. So pointing out that they left without including that is problematic.
Problematic, how so? I watched the video and it makes four points: (1) they saw the plates through supernatural means, (2) their relationship with church leaders became strained, (3) they were all excommunicated and joined other churches, (4) none could read Reformed Egyptians. What of these points are invalid because two may have come back years later?
@@robholden4847they each said they also saw the Angel. David Whitmer who didn't come back to the LDS church promoted himself as presiding Elder in the Church of Christ which taught from the Bible qnd Book of Mormon. David was a very strong promoter of the Book of Mormon throughout his life. Martin Harris did join the Strangite group being he pretty much just tagged along with any group that taught the Book of Mormon. He later moved to Utah and requested to be recaptured even though Brigham Young never considered him to have left the church. Oliver came back to, he was not excommunicated but resigned before his trial. I personally think his trial was a sham.
Usually MH has more credible information. Here we see "zero" citations of any of the comments claimed. As I understand it all of them claimed to their dying day a belief in that damnable book.. Do a better job next time so that we can share this without shame.
Very interesting point. I’ve been in the church for more than 30 years and never thought about that. Why would they need an angel to show them the plates when they were the scribes for it and the plates were presumably within arms reach the whole time? Also, it makes sense they never recanted their testimony of the book of Mormon, because it would make them appear as liars if they did .
That is a point that most people don't seem to get- can you imagine the repercussions of admitting they had been lying the whole time? The backlash certainly would have been even worse than that which they were already going through as a result of their claim.
@bipolarrambling242 When you're lying on your deathbed and about to die, you aren't worried about the repercussions of what the neighbors might think. All three witnesses left death-bed statements reaffirming their original testimonies.
@@jamesbaldwin7676 How do you think the community would have reacted to a witness recanting their testimony? How would that treatment extend to the witnesses' families? The last thing I would want to do as I leave this life would be to wreak havoc in the lives of the family I am leaving behind. Better the devil you know.
@bipolarrambling242 You can dismiss all the witnesses' testimonies you want. There're historical records of at least twenty. Dismiss them all, but you're still stuck with the Book of Mormon itself and a twenty-two year old, uneducated author. (And yes, I've heard all the theories about that.)
@@jamesbaldwin7676 My point is not to dismiss anything. I am merely showing that the idea of "well they didn't recant, so it MUST be true" is logically flawed. Mark Twain was uneducated, too, for what it's worth.
i have never understood the angel taking back the plates. We have many manuscripts of the bible including the dead sea scrolls and much of it matches very closely to the written text we have today in published bibles. we can indeed prove the words were written by people of the time of the bible. why in the case of the BOM would an angel come to take the evidence? that whole bit always was hard for me to get around.
You need to read the 75 page pamphlet that David Whitmer wrote in 1887. He was the last surviving witness of the Book of Mormon and he says, "I have never at any time denied the testimony or any part thereof, which has so long since been published with that Book, as one of the three witnesses. Those who know me best, well know that I have always adhered to that testimony. And that no man may be misled or doubt my present views in regard to the same, I do again affirm the truth of all of my statements, as then made published." He also writes about Martin and Oliver, "I will say once more to all mankind, that I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof. I also testify to the world, that neither Oliver Cowdery or Martin Harris ever at any time denied their testimony. They both died reaffirming the truth of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. I was present at the death bed of Oliver Cowdery, and his last words were, ""Brother David, be true to your testimony to the Book of Mormon.""
Why the need to see the plates and angels “in vision” if they were real? Why aren’t we taught that Martin Harris couldn’t see the angel and separated himself and saw the angel later with Joseph smith alone? They were all duped or in on the con or too embarrassed to admit they lied all along. The same way you are also duped.
This information it's not accurate why you mentioned that Oliver Cowdery joined the methodist church but you never mentioned that he later returned to the mormon church and get rebaptized by Brigham Young
Even though at one point excommunicated these three witnesses never denied their testimony as written and signed. In fact they went to great lengths after rumors were spreading that they had reversed their testimony and witness to assure everyone that they had indeed seen an angel ! So please stop spreading lies because ---2 Nephi 9:34
This video is incredibly dishonest, ignoring the numerous unequivocal affirmations made by all three witnesses made both throughout and towards the end of their lives about the reality of their experience.
I've watched every video and listen to it's claims. This is among the weakest. And they're all weak I an assure you. People who are influenced by thus rubbish need to be careful.
Let's be crystal clear...they may have had doubts about Joseph Smith (whether he.was still a prophet or a fallen prophet?) Never at any time did they doubt the Book of Mormon or recant a single word of their signed testimonies. In fact they each left death-bed testimonies.
That book is so fake in Alma it says that Jesus was born in Jerusalem should be Bethlehem and the book of Abraham has been proven false interpretation Joseph Smith said that Jesus would return in year 1891 and he said that Quakers live on the moon
@@steveambrose2349 Why would they choose not to expose Joseph Smith as a liar and con-man, since they had already been excommunicated and shared no affection for him? Why would they not admit to the con and go down in history as whistleblowers in the interest of decency?
@@jamesbaldwin7676 Likewise, should we also not ask "why would they admit to having spent their life lying, leaving behind a legacy of distrust, as well as likely repercussions for their family"? Both are fair questions.
@@bipolarrambling242 Forget the men, consider the women. There were at least four women who knew of the plates and were around when Joseph first brought them home. Mary Whitmere in particular was shown the plates. Katherine Smith (Joseph's little sister) moved them from one table to the next (although they were covered by a handkerchief at the time.) She remembered that she could feel the leeves of the plates and that the whole thing was quite heavy. These women had various experiences and left written statements. Most of them would also fall away from the Church over time, but none of them ever recanted a single word. Since none of these women left signed, sworn or legal testimonies, what was their motive for not exposing a con man? Especially Emma (Joseph's widow.) Surely she was privy to the whole con, as well as the alleged philanderings of her husband. She even remarried a non-member.
This is such a weak argument! Because each of the three witnesses went out of their way on their deathbeds to keep their covenant with God, and to verify that The Book of Mormon was a true record. People don''t generally lie on their deathbeds, just before they are about to meet their maker. Read The Book of Mormon. That's the best way to navigate through all of this propaganda on the Internet.
As a disenfranchised mormon, but out of my commitment to academic integrity, both Oliver Cowdrey and Martin Harris returned to the mormon faith. So pointing out that they left without including that is problematic.
Problematic, how so?
I watched the video and it makes four points: (1) they saw the plates through supernatural means, (2) their relationship with church leaders became strained, (3) they were all excommunicated and joined other churches, (4) none could read Reformed Egyptians. What of these points are invalid because two may have come back years later?
@@robholden4847they each said they also saw the Angel. David Whitmer who didn't come back to the LDS church promoted himself as presiding Elder in the Church of Christ which taught from the Bible qnd Book of Mormon. David was a very strong promoter of the Book of Mormon throughout his life. Martin Harris did join the Strangite group being he pretty much just tagged along with any group that taught the Book of Mormon. He later moved to Utah and requested to be recaptured even though Brigham Young never considered him to have left the church. Oliver came back to, he was not excommunicated but resigned before his trial. I personally think his trial was a sham.
Usually MH has more credible information. Here we see "zero" citations of any of the comments claimed. As I understand it all of them claimed to their dying day a belief in that damnable book.. Do a better job next time so that we can share this without shame.
Very interesting point. I’ve been in the church for more than 30 years and never thought about that. Why would they need an angel to show them the plates when they were the scribes for it and the plates were presumably within arms reach the whole time?
Also, it makes sense they never recanted their testimony of the book of Mormon, because it would make them appear as liars if they did .
That is a point that most people don't seem to get- can you imagine the repercussions of admitting they had been lying the whole time? The backlash certainly would have been even worse than that which they were already going through as a result of their claim.
@bipolarrambling242 When you're lying on your deathbed and about to die, you aren't worried about the repercussions of what the neighbors might think.
All three witnesses left death-bed statements reaffirming their original testimonies.
@@jamesbaldwin7676 How do you think the community would have reacted to a witness recanting their testimony? How would that treatment extend to the witnesses' families? The last thing I would want to do as I leave this life would be to wreak havoc in the lives of the family I am leaving behind. Better the devil you know.
@bipolarrambling242 You can dismiss all the witnesses' testimonies you want. There're historical records of at least twenty. Dismiss them all, but you're still stuck with the Book of Mormon itself and a twenty-two year old, uneducated author. (And yes, I've heard all the theories about that.)
@@jamesbaldwin7676 My point is not to dismiss anything. I am merely showing that the idea of "well they didn't recant, so it MUST be true" is logically flawed.
Mark Twain was uneducated, too, for what it's worth.
i have never understood the angel taking back the plates. We have many manuscripts of the bible including the dead sea scrolls and much of it matches very closely to the written text we have today in published bibles. we can indeed prove the words were written by people of the time of the bible. why in the case of the BOM would an angel come to take the evidence? that whole bit always was hard for me to get around.
You need to read the 75 page pamphlet that David Whitmer wrote in 1887. He was the last surviving witness of the Book of Mormon and he says, "I have never at any time denied the testimony or any part thereof, which has so long since been published with that Book, as one of the three witnesses. Those who know me best, well know that I have always adhered to that testimony. And that no man may be misled or doubt my present views in regard to the same, I do again affirm the truth of all of my statements, as then made published." He also writes about Martin and Oliver, "I will say once more to all mankind, that I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof. I also testify to the world, that neither Oliver Cowdery or Martin Harris ever at any time denied their testimony. They both died reaffirming the truth of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. I was present at the death bed of Oliver Cowdery, and his last words were, ""Brother David, be true to your testimony to the Book of Mormon.""
Why the need to see the plates and angels “in vision” if they were real? Why aren’t we taught that Martin Harris couldn’t see the angel and separated himself and saw the angel later with Joseph smith alone? They were all duped or in on the con or too embarrassed to admit they lied all along. The same way you are also duped.
These guys always look so pissed off
This information it's not accurate why you mentioned that Oliver Cowdery joined the methodist church but you never mentioned that he later returned to the mormon church and get rebaptized by Brigham Young
Ok? Did Oliver coming back means he never joined the Methodist church? What information in the video is not accurate?
Even though at one point excommunicated these three witnesses never denied their testimony as written and signed. In fact they went to great lengths after rumors were spreading that they had reversed their testimony and witness to assure everyone that they had indeed seen an angel ! So please stop spreading lies because ---2 Nephi 9:34
Lame. The only quote is from Brigham Young, and he is a known LIAR.
This video is incredibly dishonest, ignoring the numerous unequivocal affirmations made by all three witnesses made both throughout and towards the end of their lives about the reality of their experience.
I've watched every video and listen to it's claims.
This is among the weakest.
And they're all weak I an assure you.
People who are influenced by thus rubbish need to be careful.
Let's be crystal clear...they may have had doubts about Joseph Smith (whether he.was still a prophet or a fallen prophet?) Never at any time did they doubt the Book of Mormon or recant a single word of their signed testimonies. In fact they each left death-bed testimonies.
That book is so fake in Alma it says that Jesus was born in Jerusalem should be Bethlehem and the book of Abraham has been proven false interpretation Joseph Smith said that Jesus would return in year 1891 and he said that Quakers live on the moon
Yes…so let’s be clear: why would these men go to their graves and be branded as liars?
@@steveambrose2349 Why would they choose not to expose Joseph Smith as a liar and con-man, since they had already been excommunicated and shared no affection for him? Why would they not admit to the con and go down in history as whistleblowers in the interest of decency?
@@jamesbaldwin7676 Likewise, should we also not ask "why would they admit to having spent their life lying, leaving behind a legacy of distrust, as well as likely repercussions for their family"? Both are fair questions.
@@bipolarrambling242 Forget the men, consider the women. There were at least four women who knew of the plates and were around when Joseph first brought them home. Mary Whitmere in particular was shown the plates. Katherine Smith (Joseph's little sister) moved them from one table to the next (although they were covered by a handkerchief at the time.) She remembered that she could feel the leeves of the plates and that the whole thing was quite heavy.
These women had various experiences and left written statements. Most of them would also fall away from the Church over time, but none of them ever recanted a single word.
Since none of these women left signed, sworn or legal testimonies, what was their motive for not exposing a con man? Especially Emma (Joseph's widow.) Surely she was privy to the whole con, as well as the alleged philanderings of her husband. She even remarried a non-member.
This is such a weak argument! Because each of the three witnesses went out of their way on their deathbeds to keep their covenant with God, and to verify that The Book of Mormon was a true record. People don''t generally lie on their deathbeds, just before they are about to meet their maker. Read The Book of Mormon. That's the best way to navigate through all of this propaganda on the Internet.
Bad arguments