I’ve trained judo, jiu jitsu, and wrestling. I’ve began to simply refer to it all as grappling. The only thing that even separates these sports is the rule sets and how that affects the attacks and defenses you’d use. I say I do jiu jitsu when I train jiu jitsu, and judo when I train judo, but I refer to myself as a grappler or just a martial artist. Martial arts/combat sports are beautiful in that they pull from all cultures everywhere to make something beautiful and more efficient. They’re all amazing.
Pretty much took the words out of my mouth. I cross train all 3 and I’ve trained wrestling with Iranians, Americans and Russians who each have slightly different approaches to very similar techniques. Coming from the UK where there’s no wrestling culture I’ve had to rely on wrestlers migrating to London to learn from. However I consider myself a grappler over any specific martial art or sport practitioner. I enjoy competing in BJJ most though as that allows more forms of grappling due to the rules.
"The only thing that even separates these sports is the rule sets". What does that even mean? You can say that about any sport compared to another. They are all grappling but they have very different focuses. Submissions for bjj, moving your opponents entire body in wrestling, and back jacket throws in judo.
I agree that its all grappling, and Im fine with calling these sports/martial arts grappling, but " the attacks and defenses you’d use" is kinda a lot. Muay Thai and boxing are both striking, but it makes sense to have different names for them.
In all seriousness: - grappling exists thousands of years before japanese called it jii jitsu. - there are lots of references to jiu jitsu (not brazilian) around the time where the Gracies weren't still training. Hitler himself recommended soldiers to train im boxing and jiu jitsu. - You can call your academy whatever you want. - You became famous for training and competing in brazilian jiu jitsu.
But grappling in other culture was bot as advanced or sophisticated like japan.No other culture had submissions of such variety other than jaoanese jujitsu.
Agree with Keenan 100% in this conversation. I’m the customer, I’m paying you buddy. You’re a man, I’m a man, this is America, I won’t be calling you professor, sensei, your majesty, etc. Your name is John. Someone just needs to plant a flag and say at this school we do American jiu jitsu so that’s what we call it.
If I were a black belt with formal training in teaching, it would be appropriate to address me as “professor.” That said, I would tell students that it is ok to call me by my first name. I have a doctorate degree but in the professional setting I prefer to be called by my first name for a couple of reasons. If I were teaching within my profession then I would probably (reluctantly) yield to whatever the school setting preferred. I think we need to not be so rigid and prideful that we can’t adapt to the culture that we have voluntarily placed ourselves in. Like I said, I lean against titles for myself, but at the same time recognize that we’ve fallen off the deep end of the casual spectrum in all areas of American life. Heck, people wear pajamas in public and name their kids after objects (instead of people) and don’t give it a second thought.
Maeda and the other old school Japanese guys pulled guard at times. It was more of an open knee pinch guard but they definitely pulled it from standing
Actually smarter to pull guard which is why most of the best guys in the world pull guard. Standing for takedowns 1 is boring af to watch 2 takes way too much energy 3 once you get them to the ground you gotta pass anyways
It’s about power and control. Money has to be kept circulating and expanding within the inner circle. It’s prevalent in all industries. We have a deeper understanding of human nature as practicing Martial Artist. Thank you for speaking the truth Keenan.
Great conversation as always. I am an American purple belt under the Gracie Barra system and I really appreciate your perspective on this. There are a number of (secret handshakes) that are just ridiculous. I have been blessed to be apart of a great gym with a great gym culture that doesn't adhere to a lot of the weird ego stuff, but your point is valid, Jiujitsu in America is growing in spite of the Brazilian cultural elements not because of them.
In judo you have Japanese, Mongolian, Greek, Georgian, French, etc…styles… I don’t see why JJ can’t do the same. And Americans are awesome wrestlers so good on them for pushing their version forth.
I have one of Maeda’s books translated “SELF DEFENSE OR JIU- Jitsu ACHIEVABLE BY EVERYONE.” It says he traveled to the US, Cuba, central and South America, teaching and competing. Ultimately settling in Brazil. The book has picture instructional’s that is self defense techniques, solo drills and partner drills. All the self defense techniques are familiar from my Gracie JJ training. Pretty interesting book.
I was born an raised in Brazil and moved abroad in my 20s, and I have to say that while in BR I didn't even realize or think that Jiu-Jitsu was something brazilian, to me it was as Japanese as Judo or Karate. I think the fact that 'Brazilian' was added in America to describe the art is similar to why in Brazil we call football 'American football': another similar sport existed before that with the same name, but it was different enough for a distinction to be made. I am in favor of just calling it Jiu Jitsu as it is still done to this day in Brazil. Some recognition for the publicity and development to the Brazilians is of course nice, as much as Keenan deserves credit for his own innovations, but it doesn't need to be through the name of the art itself. Regarding not making sense to be an 'american representative of brazilian jiu jitsu' I think that's not a sound argument. For example there is Muay Thai (Thai Boxing literally) and I don't think that if it took an olympic sport status the name would have to change...
Nope, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is different than just Judo or even Kosen Judo, there's unique aspects of BJJ that were created in Brazil and that doesn't exist as a systematic martial art outside of it, this is why is called BJJ. And the name BJJ is interchangeable with Gracie Jiu Jitsu which is the trademark of this fighting style. Just like Muay Thai is different than Savate or Kickboxing, even though there's many similarities. As a brazilian you should know better.
This is why Keenan will always be my favorite Jiu-Jitsu practitioner. Not only is he innovative and highly skilled in the sport, but is also smart, well-spoken, and runs his gym according to the values he claims to espouse.
Dear Keenan, Thank you for sharing this conversation, it was very interesting and while I already read about the “other” history of jiu jitsu in Brazil in Drysdale’s book, you guys brought up some very interesting points. With that being said, I want to offer my opinion on two topics you covered: I think there is a certain aspect of martial arts that separates what many of us do from, say, a regular gym membership. For a lack of a better word, I call it “respect”. I will not deny, however, that certain individuals abuse this term to push their own agenda and exert authority. By being on time, you respect the time of your training partner - and if respect is too strong a word, then let’s simply call it “common courtesy”. In the training room, we want to make each other better. And probably the most effective and safe way to go about it is by treating each other decently. I don’t think there is anything bad about that - I find it significantly more dangerous to totally reject hierarchy, particularly as there is already a system in place. Yes, you are teaching paying customers. But take the part about respect away and you remove the martial arts aspect of it and reduce it to a fighting sport. Which is all good and well, don’t get me wrong - but you yourself referred to jiu jitsu as a martial ART. Regarding the historic aspects of this conversation: Erich Rahn is regarded as the godfather of jiu jitsu here in Germany who learned Judo and Jiu Jitsu in the late 19th century and opened his first school in 1906. However: The ruleset he competed under is very different than the one made popular by the IBJJF and its predecessors - and I do believe this ruleset was one of the defining factors that made Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as popular as it is today. And therefore, I think Brazilian Jiu Jitsu gained traction in the late 90s and the decades that followed. Erich Rahn did a style of jiu jitsu. Roosevelt practiced a style of jiu jitsu. You train and teach a style of jiu jitsu. Re-interpreting jiu jitsu is all good and well - for the sport to evolve and grow, this is something that needs to happen. However, claiming that what your practice is “original” American Jiu Jitsu is a bit of a stretch to me, particularly as the historic sources you quoted referred to a system that’s very different from the popular sport we are practicing today. Both you and your students are fighting and thus practicing this sport with the goal to succeed in a ruleset that in its essence still reflect the original rules introduced by the Brazilians. Yes, you definitely put your own stamp on sports jiu jitsu. But in my opinion, you did not innovate it in a way that it has become something completely new and uniquely American. Best regards from Germany, Tom
Your point about the ruleset is exactly my thought. Of course there are different styles of grappling, but the massive surge in popularity of this grappling art came under the rulesets defined in "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu". I have an American wrestling background but if I go to grappling competition, where pins and strikes don't exist, I call that BJJ.
I knew you were German before you alluded to it in your comment, as your English is perfect. There is an interesting theory, that the easiest way to tell if someone is a native English speaker, is by their common grammatical mistakes. Anyway, I agree with you. In all honesty, it frustrates me that Keenan keeps on banging on about this. He’s obviously an intelligent man, but I guess you can tell if someone is an American, by how patriotic they are! I’m sure that Keenan has dealt with many Brazilians who gatekeep the sport for their own, which is common. Ultimately, you could argue that Norway has influenced it a lot in the last few years with Tommy & Espen introducing Matrix back takes & no one has down more for the evolution of the sport than John Danaher, who is a Kiwi. As you said, Jiujitsu back then was nothing in comparison to the Jiujitsu of today & it is constantly being influenced by different nations & races, which is a thing I love, as it makes the sport feel more & more like Football (soccer, for any Yanks reading.) Also, more than anything, does it fucking matter? All Americans are European descendants anyway. I’m sure Keenan probably has German/English or Irish blood, or even maybe some Eastern European/Ashkenazi Jewish blood potentially. If you want to go back further, then we can go back even further when we came from tribes/when all the continents were still practically one land mass! 😂
@@aidanlee8804 Hi there :) When I wrote the comment above I realized that I don't know much about Erich Rahn and his Jiu Jitsu, did some research and came across the book "Erich Rahn - Wegbereiter des Jiu Jitsu in Deutschland" (which roughly translates into "Erich Rahn, Pioneer of Jiu Jitsu in Germany") by Thorsten Preiß, who is running Rahn's academy in Berlin today. I was very surprised to find out that Rahn practised some Gracie-style challenging match mode to prove the effectiveness of jiu jitsu against practitioners of other fighting styles, particularly boxing and wrestling (and later judo) and only retired from competition at the age of 40. From what I understood, most of these challenge matches were decided on the ground. I haven't found footage yet, but I could imagine that these fights might have looked very similar to what we have seen from the early days of gracie jiu jitsu/brazilian jiu jitsu. In addition to that, there were also jiu jitsu competitions both locally and nationally which constantly increased in popularity. However, the end of the Weimar Republic, the rise of the Third Reich and WWII put a stop to the rise of jiu jitsu in Germany, particularly since judo gained massive popularity given the Japanese were allies of the Germans back then. Rahn taught all kinds of people, jews included, which made him suspicious in the eyes of the powers at the time. After WWII, practising martial arts was prohibited in Germany for a couple of years and jiu jitsu was relegated to a mere self defence art while judo became hugely popular due to its competition focus. TLDR: Martial arts history is fascinating :)
Rolls Gracie was the main innovator of the gracie family he was an active wrestler and sambo competitor , that would have been nice to hear about him and his contribution to modernise JIujitsu in brazil . An interview with his direct black belts and those who trained under him would be nice , in order to hear another side of the narrative .
@@BIGDUBJAYONE Yeah definitely not his best moment lmao. I like his takes on jiu jitsu for the most part but gods dang did he go down some weird rabbit holes at one point.
@@BIGDUBJAYONE wrote "super intelligent, like believing the government is poisoning us with fluoride" I don't know what he said about this, nor what relevance it has here. In any event, fluoride is a neurotoxin, it has been clearly shown that communities that add it to water generally have lower IQ than those that do not, and it is generally a governmental action to add it to the water. If the government adds things to your water that are known to be, effectively, toxic to your brain, that is the government poisoning you. So I'm not sure what your point is.
@@BIGDUBJAYONEone day you guys will realize I actually have a very deep scientific background (studied astrophysics and comp sci in college) and I am basing the flouride concern of a lawsuit that revealed via FOIA that information and research about the correlation between flouride levels and child IQ Development was suppressed by the government
Erik Paulson has been using the term “combat submission wrestling” for decades to describe his style of grappling nodding to idea it is a blended approach using aspects of many grappling systems. My students often here me say “it’s all grappling”
Erik Paulson and CSW is influenced of all fighting. Specifically Shooto/Catch/BJJ/Wrestling(folkstyle), Muay Thai, Boxing, Kickboxing. Erik Paulson is a Bruce Lee via Inosanto, Sayama, Nakamura, Machado, lineage. Jeet Kune Do is heavily influenced in CSW along with all the other. Remember their is no system.
The Gracie family popularized Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. In this case, it was the Americans themselves who started using the term "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu." So, for marketing reasons, they seized the name to further promote the art and make a name for themselves with it. In Brazil, we simply call it Jiu-Jitsu and not "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu." In several gyms in Brazil, it is common to use the terms of scams not in English or Portuguese, but in Japanese. This practice not only highlights the Japanese origin of jiu-jitsu, but also maintains a direct connection with the tradition and essence of the martial art. It is interesting to note that, even within Brazil, academies can adopt different approaches to jiu-jitsu. These variations reflect the diversity of influences and interpretations of the martial art. By recognizing these different cultures within jiu-jitsu, we strengthen the understanding that the practice is dynamic and can be expressed in different ways, without losing its fundamental essence. Tradition, values, and respect are fundamental pillars in Jiu-Jitsu and any martial art. These elements not only connect the practice to its rich past but also shape the present and future experiences of practitioners. Tradition is more than just reverence for what came before; it is the anchor that keeps the art authentic, preserving its essence over time. Values such as humility, discipline, and perseverance not only enhance technical skills but also cultivate virtues essential for everyday life. Respect, expressed through greetings to instructors and training partners, is the glue that binds the Jiu-Jitsu community. Without these elements, the art loses its depth, becoming a mere sequence of movements devoid of the spirit that makes it a transformative journey. Promoting the martial art without tradition, values, and respect is neglecting its true essence. It becomes an empty practice, lacking the cultural and philosophical richness that makes it unique. Through these elements, Jiu-Jitsu transcends the physical, becoming a tool not only for self-defense but also for personal growth and the building of a united community. American Jiu-jitsu is nothing more than marketing, just like 'Brazilian Jiu-jitsu' - it's also marketing. However, I must emphasize that some criticisms express complete disrespect and a lack of values. A martial art is more than just learning to fight; it's a philosophy of life that teaches you about discipline, courage, and respect.
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu came in when people outside the Gracie family wanted to start promoting themselves and running schools. It was an attempt to weaken the hold the Gracies had over the art.
@@armedjoy3045 You couldn't use name Gracie JJ in US, unless they allow you, that's why people started calling it BJJ. Even their cousins - Machado bros. didn't get permission from Rorion Gracie I believe. He was a lawyer and Gracie JJ name was protected, that's how they wanted to protect their business in US and get money from every school they allow to open.
Nope, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is different than just Judo or even Kosen Judo, there's unique aspects of BJJ that were created in Brazil and that doesn't exist as a systematic martial art outside of it, this is why is called BJJ. And the name BJJ is interchangeable with Gracie Jiu Jitsu which is the trademark of this fighting style. Just like Muay Thai is different than Savate or Kickboxing, even though there's many similarities.
These kinds conversations would be bettered with some more structure. Plan and agree a set of topics and questions to work through together. You guys have so much historical knowledge and practitioner experience combined. It would be so nice to breakdown everything more thoroughly and sequentially. That said, I'm really glad to have listened in. Thanks for sharing.
26:24 "getting sued by the Gracies so they couldn't use the Gracie marketing term because the Gracies themselves were suing other people and each other so the Gracies they were suing each other about" this is an historic fact and the whole reason why the name "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" was created... it was a compromise so people could teach the art of Gracie Jiu-jitsu without advertising it as Gracie jiu-jitsu, but calling it "Brazilian Jiu-jitsu" instead. and then this giant mess was created.
it s called brazilian jiujitsu for a reason just look at traditionnal jujisu it has nothing to do with japanese jujitsu . All the sport have been created at some point and they all got inspired by other sport jiujitsu is the same , japanese people didnt create throwing and punching ... It is said to have originated more than 4,000 years by Buddhists monks from northern India, so we have to call it " indian jujitsu"? This doesnt make any sense ! ASk a japanese jiujitsuka to show you a darce a z-lock knee bar and many many original techniques of bjj I am not brazilian honestly I dont care at the end of the day about names but we cant forget that gracie have made this revoluton possible maybe it would have happenned for other but it s them , just history the fact this sport has only 100 years doesnt decrease his worth japanese jiujitsu also had 100 years at some point
I had never experienced any of the "secret handshakes" until moving to a bigger club. It was all kinda crazy in the beginning, affording me several berations, and a talk about "discipline on the mat" by some instructor. I've been reprimanded for doing leg locks or foot americana's as a blue belt, for entering the mat, for leaving the mat, for tying the belt, for not tying the belt, for doing a different position I thought of in the moment, for expanding on the position, for asking a black belt to roll. Oh, and all rolls begin on the floor, I always ask if I can train standing up but you're supposed to begin sitting like a duck. Couldn't care less about any of this garbage though. All that matters is the skill of jiu jitsu and winning, to hell with anything else.
What a weird thing to worry about…”Brazilian” jiu Jitsu. The reason they call it that is to distinguish it from the jiu Jitsu it is an offshoot of. They are not the same. And “Brazilian” was introduced as an international marketing term when people couldn’t call it “Gracie” jiu Jitsu without licensing the name. The Gracies clearly adapted and changed the jiu Jitsu they learned. It is called something else to distinguish it. It’s not in any way trying to take something away from its roots in Asia.
I really enjoyed this podcast and understand where you are coming from. About comparing strictness of Brazilian style versus Japanese style, I wanted to say that traditional martial arts training in Japan and neighboring countries can be extremely strict, much more so than the examples given in this podcast. At the Shaolin Temple in China, one of the origins of martial arts, they do extreme beatings to the monks, including children. This is similar to the Zen training at the famous Rinzai monasteries in Japan, where they beat the monks in training with wooden sticks to the point of injury, and where they are strict about not being allowed to use the bathroom unless given permission which was mentioned in this podcast. My conclusion from this is that if you are trying to train complete mental toughness, sometimes extreme methods can be effective. I think you have to make a distinction between people who are just members of a gym as hobbbyists and people like Keenan who were professional athletes preparing to fight against dangerous opponents on steroids.
As of June 2023, there were 210,563 Brazilian nationals in Japan, of whom 114,744 were permanent residents. Although it is only 0.1% of the population, it's significant. Brazil is home to the largest population of Japanese origin outside Japan, with about 1.5 million Japanese and their descendants, so the connection between the two countries is strong. It also explains the nexus between judo and Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
It is kind of nuts that people throw random baseless "facts" or opinions made seconds before posting in the comment section. I'm glad someone like Keenan is famous in the community, he's one of the few who actually know the history, people just dont care. Keenan, you, Robert Drysdale, Rhadi Ferguson and even Chadi are a dying breed, could be someday that people just think the Gracie family invented these techniques, some casuals I know already think like that.
We Bow in, I personally love this, we drill certain techniques certain ways but then we also drill "do any technique you want", "Drill any variation or armbar you want" most of the other stuff does not apply, Our instructor is originally from Brazil here about 14 years now, checking with anyone to use the bathroom sounds crazy to me, we just run off the mat use the bathroom and bow back in
Love the point made re how national character can be expressed through jiu-jitsu. Traditions, social norms, language, even the theology of the wider culture will inform the way that people will express their martial spirit.
Really appreciate the conversation I have been trying to find information on early American wrestling to see if it was submission wrestling. Grappling is grappling the world over Joints only bend certain ways despite what you call the move
I get the spirit of what you're saying, but I think you are getting bogged down in the semantics and marketing of a name. Greco Roman wrestling is still called that even though Greeks and Romans have almost no contribution to the sport today. There are Russian Greco Roman Wrestlers etc. But I don't think that's the heart of what you were arguing.
In my experience, being even remotely smart and/or educated in the BJJ world makes for a profoundly frustrating experience. Some of the smart people have the capacity to tolerate it, but many become frustrated and leave the sport altogether.
If we're removing Brazilian from jiujitsu because they didn't invent it and because it makes more sense for an international sport why would you then replace it with another country's name? Not wanting bjj to be called bjj and twisting history to justify creating a new name are not the same goal. You don't need to make false claim to some kind of lineage with random judo and jiujitsu practioners from America's past in order to argue that it doesn't make sense to call brazilian jiujitsu brazilian. You don't need to do anything to justify the corny marketing of "American jiujitsu" in general especially to people who already dislike you and will regardless. Just do it and leave the history alone if you're gonna muddy those waters. And as an aside a shocking amount of what is considered "modern" jiujitsu, "brazilian" jiujitsu and "sport" jiujitsu was all present directly or in similar form in Judo and pre-Judo or koryu jujutsu/jujitsu/jiujitsu. This includes a lot of leglocks, "fancy" guards, wreslting up, etc. etc. If you think you invented something you're probably wrong.
Ok here is the REAL question - How much does a person/family/group need to alter (change/add to/distill) an art they learned in order to rebrand what they practice as a new variant of the style?
@fritzdagger ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! From a Facebook BJJ Group, clicked on an article, where that lead to this video. As a European, having my own Fight Club in Berlin, Germany at first I fell for that anti-american sentiment my myself, what do you guys want to brand as American again. But luckily, as a fighter who has his emotion under control, my curiosity led me to push the play button. YOU ARE NOT ONLY A GREAT JiuJitsu Coach and Fighter. Keenan, you have a black belt in PR and Communication. Let me tell you something, what I see. The way you argue, the way you structure your argument. The soundness of your argument. The calmness and down to earth successful guy image you project. The selflessness of your actions, the disregard for fake rituals, the regard for healthy human beings relations based on mutual respect in your gym. YOU JUST PROJECTED EVERYTHING THAT IS MISSING IN US. POLITICS. I would even ask you why aren't you saving your country and run for president, but I know very well why. JiuJitsu can break your bone, but politics can break your life. Let me tell you this. I only know the quality of a Gracie gym here in the city. But by the power of your PR Black Belt, you just pushed into the brand American JiuJitsu the quality and principles upon which your country was founded. You just gave the brand American Jiu Jitsu more than you maybe realize. If you're ever in Berlin, Germany and want to visit for example the famous Berghain Techno temple or just grab a beer. Drinks are on me. Cheers from Europe.
Thank you! That’s exactly the point! To save the USA first we need a grass roots coalition of patriots representing something that isn’t political first. 10 years from now we may have a strong movement to affect change
I kind of get what he is saying but what do I call the sport that I am competing in when I go to a grappling industries or ibjjf tournament? Jiu-Jitsu, Submission grappling, BJJ? I would never say I'm going to an American Jiu Jitsu tournament. If I'm in Germany playing American football, there is nothing wrong with calling it "American Football", even if there are only Germans competing.
BJJ is a tribalistic way to talk about Jiu Jitsu, so let's call it AJJ. The irony. Still, I love all the innovation that Keenan brought to Jiu Jitsu, and great marketing stunt to bring attention to your new venture selling AJJ franchises.
Pankration in Rome? Come on @fritzdagger. Pankration was developed in Greece. Even the word is Greek. They also had two styles of wrestling-Páli or Pále. The Olympic style, the stand up wrestling-orthia pali(first of three takedowns wins) and the other non Olympic one was called ground wrestling-kílisis(rolling) and this would end only by a submission. So probably it is Greek jiu jitsu 😉!
@@pootytang2872 I found in Greek but I think it's easy to also find in English these information. It is well known about these two styles of wrestling in ancient Greece. I forgot to mention that in the ground style there were two ways to win. Either by submission or by pin, it was basicly like catch but naked and rubbed with oil.
Keenan, love the history and being subjective along with being objective in this topic. Not sure if you’ve watched it before or studied it. But a great documentary which is free on RUclips “For the love of Catch”. Great history of submission wrestling and its origin from the UK to the USA. Catch is the father of many. MMA, Pro wrestling, Folkstyle, freestyle etc.
Question for Keenan, Since AJJ is technically not BJJ then Keenan could possibly avoid the IBJJF belt system and be the first Red Belt in AJJ. Otherwise if Legion Jiujitsu academy sticks to the original IBJJF belt system then who is going to give Keenan more degrees other than himself? Obviously it doesnt matter but I'm curious who Keenan would be under at that point.
we’re getting too caught up with nomenclature. I understand the Keenan has to double down on the “American” JJ since it’s his franchise (which will eventually be about money). My concern is AJJ might devolve in to this watered down grappling - aka Karate schools.
if there are different systems of judo across the world- Japanese, Korean, Russian, Georgian, American, Cuban etc. then, IMO, there being different systems of jiu jitsu from various countries is reasonable.
Don't see the problem of calling something brazil. In my country (and I believe in Europe in general) NFL is called literally "american footbool". We have the main league called "american football something", we have the fedaration that is called "american" and so on. It really isn't a problem unless you yourself make it so. And no, BJJ (or AJJ) isn't just judo, more like judo is just wrestling or ju-jutsu/jiu-jitsu. No one can call ownership of things that are ancient as humankind itself.
I believe from Robert drys Dale book he speaks about how carlson gracie changed the way jiu jitsu was practiced & that many gyms are following carlsons version of jiu jitsu...
You are a true class act, Keenan! Thank you for bringing much needed honesty to this topic. Just a little correction: 'SYNERGY' is when the sum is greater than its parts, not "synthesis".
Coming from someone who appreciates what you added to the sport and tries to incorporate some of your concepts on my game, I wanted to say that you sound extremely hypocritical when you say it can’t be called Brazilian jiujitsu because it was first originated in Japan and procedes to call it American jiujitsu. If a Brazilian is playing American football in Brazil, regardless if he’s good or not, does that gives him the right to call Brazilian football?
Should read the collection of writings by Farmer Burns. I read it 6 or 7 years ago and immediately recognized the Gracies were full of crap. I read and saw all sorts of concepts attributed to Helio being discussed and demonstrated before Helio was even born .
Its so weird that old school bjj has all these strict codes. When I started in 1996 there was none of that except the creonte stuff. I think modern old school throwback is actually brought all this traditional code stuff. Id say between 2002-2015 created the new old school
Every critique applied to Keenan, for example that he is disrespecting the lineage applies 100 fold to the Brazilians who wanted to distance their lineage from Japan and the masters they learned from. The Gracies directly disrespect Judo and claim its inferior despite losing to Judoka in the main challenge matchels and pretending Helio invented leverage and the art of jujutsu.
Also as an aside, for those who claim BJJ is Judo for real fighting. For one ne waza is way less important in a real fight on hard ground than nage waza but even in a safe padded ring combat Sambo has been the superior tradition of combat Judo the entire time, it's become extremely obvious in MMA now even nogi. Guard specialization, that is specializing in a bad position only worked on people with no guard game at all like wrestlers and catch wrestlers.
And a good Judoka or Sambist in newaza of the same size would have done the exact same thing Royce did in UFC 1 etc. Maybe even gotten more takedowns lol.
Was it “racism” for post-Pearl Harbor Americans to reject JJ because it’s Japanese? I’m not saying it was smart or productive for it to be rejected simply because of the attack (we would soon be engaged in fights to the death across various small islands t/o the Pacific against a zealous Japanese infantry - better to know what your enemy knows), but to call it racist seems to be a bit much. If it were due to racism, then JJ would have been rejected before the attack because it was Japanese then as well.
I’ve trained judo, jiu jitsu, and wrestling. I’ve began to simply refer to it all as grappling. The only thing that even separates these sports is the rule sets and how that affects the attacks and defenses you’d use. I say I do jiu jitsu when I train jiu jitsu, and judo when I train judo, but I refer to myself as a grappler or just a martial artist. Martial arts/combat sports are beautiful in that they pull from all cultures everywhere to make something beautiful and more efficient. They’re all amazing.
Pretty much took the words out of my mouth. I cross train all 3 and I’ve trained wrestling with Iranians, Americans and Russians who each have slightly different approaches to very similar techniques. Coming from the UK where there’s no wrestling culture I’ve had to rely on wrestlers migrating to London to learn from. However I consider myself a grappler over any specific martial art or sport practitioner. I enjoy competing in BJJ most though as that allows more forms of grappling due to the rules.
Yes it’s all grappling. I’m gonna start wearing a white belt again cuz I think it’s all redundant
"The only thing that even separates these sports is the rule sets". What does that even mean? You can say that about any sport compared to another. They are all grappling but they have very different focuses. Submissions for bjj, moving your opponents entire body in wrestling, and back jacket throws in judo.
I agree that its all grappling, and Im fine with calling these sports/martial arts grappling, but " the attacks and defenses you’d use" is kinda a lot. Muay Thai and boxing are both striking, but it makes sense to have different names for them.
Martial arts are known as gay shit like kung fu though
One has to wonder if Chadi realizes he matches his curtains
Keenan: putting a nations name on jiujitsu is stupid
Also Keenan: ITS AMERICAN JIUJITSU BRO
In all seriousness:
- grappling exists thousands of years before japanese called it jii jitsu.
- there are lots of references to jiu jitsu (not brazilian) around the time where the Gracies weren't still training. Hitler himself recommended soldiers to train im boxing and jiu jitsu.
- You can call your academy whatever you want.
- You became famous for training and competing in brazilian jiu jitsu.
👍💯agree
So? I dunno, sounds like you are trying to hold him hostage..
No one is actually famous for doing jiu jitsu
But grappling in other culture was bot as advanced or sophisticated like japan.No other culture had submissions of such variety other than jaoanese jujitsu.
Agree with Keenan 100% in this conversation. I’m the customer, I’m paying you buddy. You’re a man, I’m a man, this is America, I won’t be calling you professor, sensei, your majesty, etc. Your name is John. Someone just needs to plant a flag and say at this school we do American jiu jitsu so that’s what we call it.
Your Majesty John for you, peon. And you shall pay my tea taxes as well.
What about coach?
@benkelly7182 I use coach, but it's voluntary. My coach doesn't care what you call him. He just wants to teach you jiujitsu.
@@bryanmayfield7916 I feel the same way and so does my coach. Aka Bob lol
If I were a black belt with formal training in teaching, it would be appropriate to address me as “professor.” That said, I would tell students that it is ok to call me by my first name. I have a doctorate degree but in the professional setting I prefer to be called by my first name for a couple of reasons. If I were teaching within my profession then I would probably (reluctantly) yield to whatever the school setting preferred. I think we need to not be so rigid and prideful that we can’t adapt to the culture that we have voluntarily placed ourselves in. Like I said, I lean against titles for myself, but at the same time recognize that we’ve fallen off the deep end of the casual spectrum in all areas of American life. Heck, people wear pajamas in public and name their kids after objects (instead of people) and don’t give it a second thought.
What a learned from this chat is Brazilians took jiu jitsu and started pulling guard. Aka gayified it.
Whats wrong with being gay?
Go home dude, yer 🗑️
😂😂😂
Sitting and butt scooting is much different than pulling someone down into a sweep.
Maeda and the other old school Japanese guys pulled guard at times. It was more of an open knee pinch guard but they definitely pulled it from standing
Actually smarter to pull guard which is why most of the best guys in the world pull guard. Standing for takedowns 1 is boring af to watch 2 takes way too much energy 3 once you get them to the ground you gotta pass anyways
I can't wait until Keenan gives himself the title of grand master/grand wizard and awards himself a red/coral belt.
It’s about power and control.
Money has to be kept circulating and expanding within the inner circle.
It’s prevalent in all industries.
We have a deeper understanding of human nature as practicing Martial Artist.
Thank you for speaking the truth Keenan.
Great conversation as always. I am an American purple belt under the Gracie Barra system and I really appreciate your perspective on this. There are a number of (secret handshakes) that are just ridiculous. I have been blessed to be apart of a great gym with a great gym culture that doesn't adhere to a lot of the weird ego stuff, but your point is valid, Jiujitsu in America is growing in spite of the Brazilian cultural elements not because of them.
😂😂😂😂
In judo you have Japanese, Mongolian, Greek, Georgian, French, etc…styles… I don’t see why JJ can’t do the same. And Americans are awesome wrestlers so good on them for pushing their version forth.
I've been a huge fan of Chadi and his judo & technique history videos, very cool. Thanks for this conversation Keenan!
Glad you enjoyed!
I have one of Maeda’s books translated “SELF DEFENSE OR JIU- Jitsu ACHIEVABLE BY EVERYONE.” It says he traveled to the US, Cuba, central and South America, teaching and competing. Ultimately settling in Brazil. The book has picture instructional’s that is self defense techniques, solo drills and partner drills. All the self defense techniques are familiar from my Gracie JJ training. Pretty interesting book.
I was born an raised in Brazil and moved abroad in my 20s, and I have to say that while in BR I didn't even realize or think that Jiu-Jitsu was something brazilian, to me it was as Japanese as Judo or Karate. I think the fact that 'Brazilian' was added in America to describe the art is similar to why in Brazil we call football 'American football': another similar sport existed before that with the same name, but it was different enough for a distinction to be made.
I am in favor of just calling it Jiu Jitsu as it is still done to this day in Brazil. Some recognition for the publicity and development to the Brazilians is of course nice, as much as Keenan deserves credit for his own innovations, but it doesn't need to be through the name of the art itself.
Regarding not making sense to be an 'american representative of brazilian jiu jitsu' I think that's not a sound argument. For example there is Muay Thai (Thai Boxing literally) and I don't think that if it took an olympic sport status the name would have to change...
Kickboxing?
@@TheStudiolightmy thoughts exactly
@@levon6363Kickboxing is not MT
Nope, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is different than just Judo or even Kosen Judo, there's unique aspects of BJJ that were created in Brazil and that doesn't exist as a systematic martial art outside of it, this is why is called BJJ. And the name BJJ is interchangeable with Gracie Jiu Jitsu which is the trademark of this fighting style. Just like Muay Thai is different than Savate or Kickboxing, even though there's many similarities. As a brazilian you should know better.
@@truth-uncensored2426 hey I think we are in agreement here, probably an interpretation issue.
This is why Keenan will always be my favorite Jiu-Jitsu practitioner. Not only is he innovative and highly skilled in the sport, but is also smart, well-spoken, and runs his gym according to the values he claims to espouse.
Dear Keenan,
Thank you for sharing this conversation, it was very interesting and while I already read about the “other” history of jiu jitsu in Brazil in Drysdale’s book, you guys brought up some very interesting points.
With that being said, I want to offer my opinion on two topics you covered:
I think there is a certain aspect of martial arts that separates what many of us do from, say, a regular gym membership. For a lack of a better word, I call it “respect”. I will not deny, however, that certain individuals abuse this term to push their own agenda and exert authority. By being on time, you respect the time of your training partner - and if respect is too strong a word, then let’s simply call it “common courtesy”. In the training room, we want to make each other better. And probably the most effective and safe way to go about it is by treating each other decently. I don’t think there is anything bad about that - I find it significantly more dangerous to totally reject hierarchy, particularly as there is already a system in place. Yes, you are teaching paying customers. But take the part about respect away and you remove the martial arts aspect of it and reduce it to a fighting sport. Which is all good and well, don’t get me wrong - but you yourself referred to jiu jitsu as a martial ART.
Regarding the historic aspects of this conversation: Erich Rahn is regarded as the godfather of jiu jitsu here in Germany who learned Judo and Jiu Jitsu in the late 19th century and opened his first school in 1906. However: The ruleset he competed under is very different than the one made popular by the IBJJF and its predecessors - and I do believe this ruleset was one of the defining factors that made Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as popular as it is today. And therefore, I think Brazilian Jiu Jitsu gained traction in the late 90s and the decades that followed.
Erich Rahn did a style of jiu jitsu. Roosevelt practiced a style of jiu jitsu. You train and teach a style of jiu jitsu. Re-interpreting jiu jitsu is all good and well - for the sport to evolve and grow, this is something that needs to happen. However, claiming that what your practice is “original” American Jiu Jitsu is a bit of a stretch to me, particularly as the historic sources you quoted referred to a system that’s very different from the popular sport we are practicing today. Both you and your students are fighting and thus practicing this sport with the goal to succeed in a ruleset that in its essence still reflect the original rules introduced by the Brazilians. Yes, you definitely put your own stamp on sports jiu jitsu. But in my opinion, you did not innovate it in a way that it has become something completely new and uniquely American.
Best regards from Germany,
Tom
How long have you been doing jiu jitsu?
@@goonbob12345 18 years. Why do you ask?
Your point about the ruleset is exactly my thought. Of course there are different styles of grappling, but the massive surge in popularity of this grappling art came under the rulesets defined in "Brazilian Jiu Jitsu". I have an American wrestling background but if I go to grappling competition, where pins and strikes don't exist, I call that BJJ.
I knew you were German before you alluded to it in your comment, as your English is perfect. There is an interesting theory, that the easiest way to tell if someone is a native English speaker, is by their common grammatical mistakes. Anyway, I agree with you. In all honesty, it frustrates me that Keenan keeps on banging on about this. He’s obviously an intelligent man, but I guess you can tell if someone is an American, by how patriotic they are! I’m sure that Keenan has dealt with many Brazilians who gatekeep the sport for their own, which is common. Ultimately, you could argue that Norway has influenced it a lot in the last few years with Tommy & Espen introducing Matrix back takes & no one has down more for the evolution of the sport than John Danaher, who is a Kiwi. As you said, Jiujitsu back then was nothing in comparison to the Jiujitsu of today & it is constantly being influenced by different nations & races, which is a thing I love, as it makes the sport feel more & more like Football (soccer, for any Yanks reading.) Also, more than anything, does it fucking matter? All Americans are European descendants anyway. I’m sure Keenan probably has German/English or Irish blood, or even maybe some Eastern European/Ashkenazi Jewish blood potentially. If you want to go back further, then we can go back even further when we came from tribes/when all the continents were still practically one land mass! 😂
@@aidanlee8804 Hi there :) When I wrote the comment above I realized that I don't know much about Erich Rahn and his Jiu Jitsu, did some research and came across the book "Erich Rahn - Wegbereiter des Jiu Jitsu in Deutschland" (which roughly translates into "Erich Rahn, Pioneer of Jiu Jitsu in Germany") by Thorsten Preiß, who is running Rahn's academy in Berlin today. I was very surprised to find out that Rahn practised some Gracie-style challenging match mode to prove the effectiveness of jiu jitsu against practitioners of other fighting styles, particularly boxing and wrestling (and later judo) and only retired from competition at the age of 40. From what I understood, most of these challenge matches were decided on the ground. I haven't found footage yet, but I could imagine that these fights might have looked very similar to what we have seen from the early days of gracie jiu jitsu/brazilian jiu jitsu. In addition to that, there were also jiu jitsu competitions both locally and nationally which constantly increased in popularity. However, the end of the Weimar Republic, the rise of the Third Reich and WWII put a stop to the rise of jiu jitsu in Germany, particularly since judo gained massive popularity given the Japanese were allies of the Germans back then. Rahn taught all kinds of people, jews included, which made him suspicious in the eyes of the powers at the time. After WWII, practising martial arts was prohibited in Germany for a couple of years and jiu jitsu was relegated to a mere self defence art while judo became hugely popular due to its competition focus. TLDR: Martial arts history is fascinating :)
Rolls Gracie was the main innovator of the gracie family he was an active wrestler and sambo competitor , that would have been nice to hear about him and his contribution to modernise JIujitsu in brazil . An interview with his direct black belts and those who trained under him would be nice , in order to hear another side of the narrative .
I train under lineage of rolls, all black belt descendants of him I know even a few removed are all high level competitors.
Keenan's main problem here is that he is smarter than the average BJJ -- I mean JJ -- player. :)
The jiu-jitsu community hates that about him. He truly is more intelligent than most people training jiu-jitsu.
@@B1bLioPhil3Yeah, super intelligent, like believing the government is poisoning us with fluoride 😂
@@BIGDUBJAYONE Yeah definitely not his best moment lmao. I like his takes on jiu jitsu for the most part but gods dang did he go down some weird rabbit holes at one point.
@@BIGDUBJAYONE wrote "super intelligent, like believing the government is poisoning us with fluoride"
I don't know what he said about this, nor what relevance it has here. In any event, fluoride is a neurotoxin, it has been clearly shown that communities that add it to water generally have lower IQ than those that do not, and it is generally a governmental action to add it to the water. If the government adds things to your water that are known to be, effectively, toxic to your brain, that is the government poisoning you.
So I'm not sure what your point is.
@@BIGDUBJAYONEone day you guys will realize I actually have a very deep scientific background (studied astrophysics and comp sci in college) and I am basing the flouride concern of a lawsuit that revealed via FOIA that information and research about the correlation between flouride levels and child IQ Development was suppressed by the government
I heard Keenan speak for the first time this year. Always thought he was Australian.
😂😂😂
No he is just smug
Sometimes I have thought about saying I train "Hawaiian Jiu-Jitsu" because our head black belt instructor was from Hawaii.
Hawaii is part of America
Shout out to Submissions 101! Had the exact same experience, I'm probably similar age to Keenan.
Should we just call it RUclips Jiu Jitsu?
Erik Paulson has been using the term “combat submission wrestling” for decades to describe his style of grappling nodding to idea it is a blended approach using aspects of many grappling systems. My students often here me say “it’s all grappling”
Erik Paulson and CSW is influenced of all fighting. Specifically Shooto/Catch/BJJ/Wrestling(folkstyle), Muay Thai, Boxing, Kickboxing.
Erik Paulson is a Bruce Lee via Inosanto, Sayama, Nakamura, Machado, lineage. Jeet Kune Do is heavily influenced in CSW along with all the other.
Remember their is no system.
The Gracie family popularized Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. In this case, it was the Americans themselves who started using the term "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu." So, for marketing reasons, they seized the name to further promote the art and make a name for themselves with it. In Brazil, we simply call it Jiu-Jitsu and not "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu."
In several gyms in Brazil, it is common to use the terms of scams not in English or Portuguese, but in Japanese. This practice not only highlights the Japanese origin of jiu-jitsu, but also maintains a direct connection with the tradition and essence of the martial art. It is interesting to note that, even within Brazil, academies can adopt different approaches to jiu-jitsu. These variations reflect the diversity of influences and interpretations of the martial art. By recognizing these different cultures within jiu-jitsu, we strengthen the understanding that the practice is dynamic and can be expressed in different ways, without losing its fundamental essence.
Tradition, values, and respect are fundamental pillars in Jiu-Jitsu and any martial art. These elements not only connect the practice to its rich past but also shape the present and future experiences of practitioners.
Tradition is more than just reverence for what came before; it is the anchor that keeps the art authentic, preserving its essence over time. Values such as humility, discipline, and perseverance not only enhance technical skills but also cultivate virtues essential for everyday life.
Respect, expressed through greetings to instructors and training partners, is the glue that binds the Jiu-Jitsu community. Without these elements, the art loses its depth, becoming a mere sequence of movements devoid of the spirit that makes it a transformative journey.
Promoting the martial art without tradition, values, and respect is neglecting its true essence. It becomes an empty practice, lacking the cultural and philosophical richness that makes it unique. Through these elements, Jiu-Jitsu transcends the physical, becoming a tool not only for self-defense but also for personal growth and the building of a united community.
American Jiu-jitsu is nothing more than marketing, just like 'Brazilian Jiu-jitsu' - it's also marketing. However, I must emphasize that some criticisms express complete disrespect and a lack of values. A martial art is more than just learning to fight; it's a philosophy of life that teaches you about discipline, courage, and respect.
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu came in when people outside the Gracie family wanted to start promoting themselves and running schools. It was an attempt to weaken the hold the Gracies had over the art.
@@armedjoy3045 You couldn't use name Gracie JJ in US, unless they allow you, that's why people started calling it BJJ. Even their cousins - Machado bros. didn't get permission from Rorion Gracie I believe. He was a lawyer and Gracie JJ name was protected, that's how they wanted to protect their business in US and get money from every school they allow to open.
@@smesh141 that's what I said
@@armedjoy3045 But they didn't do that because they wanted to weaken the Gracies, they just didn't have a choice, it was not some kind of masterplan.
Nope, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is different than just Judo or even Kosen Judo, there's unique aspects of BJJ that were created in Brazil and that doesn't exist as a systematic martial art outside of it, this is why is called BJJ. And the name BJJ is interchangeable with Gracie Jiu Jitsu which is the trademark of this fighting style. Just like Muay Thai is different than Savate or Kickboxing, even though there's many similarities.
These kinds conversations would be bettered with some more structure. Plan and agree a set of topics and questions to work through together. You guys have so much historical knowledge and practitioner experience combined. It would be so nice to breakdown everything more thoroughly and sequentially. That said, I'm really glad to have listened in. Thanks for sharing.
I remember training at checkmat hq and being obligated to wear a checkmat patch on my gi to be on the mat. No patch no training…. Fuck that
This is such a great interview. Thank you Chadi!
26:24 "getting sued by the Gracies so they couldn't use the Gracie marketing term because the Gracies themselves were suing other people and each other so the Gracies they were suing each other about" this is an historic fact and the whole reason why the name "Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu" was created... it was a compromise so people could teach the art of Gracie Jiu-jitsu without advertising it as Gracie jiu-jitsu, but calling it "Brazilian Jiu-jitsu" instead. and then this giant mess was created.
Last I checked, Brazil is in the Americas. Therefor American Jiu-Jitsu is truly what it should be called.
Keenan woke up today and chose violence, and for that I thank him.
o7
#saymynamesaymyname
#catch-as-catch-can
one of the best explanations of what is wrong with "brazilian jiujitsu today"
it s called brazilian jiujitsu for a reason just look at traditionnal jujisu it has nothing to do with japanese jujitsu .
All the sport have been created at some point and they all got inspired by other sport jiujitsu is the same , japanese people didnt create throwing and punching ...
It is said to have originated more than 4,000 years by Buddhists monks from northern India,
so we have to call it " indian jujitsu"?
This doesnt make any sense !
ASk a japanese jiujitsuka to show you a darce a z-lock knee bar and many many original techniques of bjj
I am not brazilian honestly I dont care at the end of the day about names but we cant forget that gracie have made this revoluton possible maybe it would have happenned for other but it s them , just history the fact this sport has only 100 years doesnt decrease his worth
japanese jiujitsu also had 100 years at some point
The way I view judo and jiu jitsu is essentially a religious schism. Same religion and origins, different emphasis.
We could just sidestep all of this by calling it submission grappling
This is the way
I had never experienced any of the "secret handshakes" until moving to a bigger club. It was all kinda crazy in the beginning, affording me several berations, and a talk about "discipline on the mat" by some instructor. I've been reprimanded for doing leg locks or foot americana's as a blue belt, for entering the mat, for leaving the mat, for tying the belt, for not tying the belt, for doing a different position I thought of in the moment, for expanding on the position, for asking a black belt to roll.
Oh, and all rolls begin on the floor, I always ask if I can train standing up but you're supposed to begin sitting like a duck.
Couldn't care less about any of this garbage though. All that matters is the skill of jiu jitsu and winning, to hell with anything else.
What a weird thing to worry about…”Brazilian” jiu Jitsu. The reason they call it that is to distinguish it from the jiu Jitsu it is an offshoot of. They are not the same. And “Brazilian” was introduced as an international marketing term when people couldn’t call it “Gracie” jiu Jitsu without licensing the name.
The Gracies clearly adapted and changed the jiu Jitsu they learned. It is called something else to distinguish it. It’s not in any way trying to take something away from its roots in Asia.
I really enjoyed this podcast and understand where you are coming from. About comparing strictness of Brazilian style versus Japanese style, I wanted to say that traditional martial arts training in Japan and neighboring countries can be extremely strict, much more so than the examples given in this podcast. At the Shaolin Temple in China, one of the origins of martial arts, they do extreme beatings to the monks, including children. This is similar to the Zen training at the famous Rinzai monasteries in Japan, where they beat the monks in training with wooden sticks to the point of injury, and where they are strict about not being allowed to use the bathroom unless given permission which was mentioned in this podcast. My conclusion from this is that if you are trying to train complete mental toughness, sometimes extreme methods can be effective. I think you have to make a distinction between people who are just members of a gym as hobbbyists and people like Keenan who were professional athletes preparing to fight against dangerous opponents on steroids.
Brazilians down bad
Bring back the mat burn podcast damn you!!! I need closure 😢
‘Americana’ was named for Bob Anderson (my sisters father in law), who went to train/teach the Gracies. There’s an article somewhere describing this.
there is an awesome video of him telling the story himself.
As of June 2023, there were 210,563 Brazilian nationals in Japan, of whom 114,744 were permanent residents. Although it is only 0.1% of the population, it's significant. Brazil is home to the largest population of Japanese origin outside Japan, with about 1.5 million Japanese and their descendants, so the connection between the two countries is strong. It also explains the nexus between judo and Brazilian jiu-jitsu.
More Keenan content again please! 🔥
Being as this is his channel that is pretty much guaranteed
@@JFLOJUDOWell of course, *more frequently content lol
It is kind of nuts that people throw random baseless "facts" or opinions made seconds before posting in the comment section. I'm glad someone like Keenan is famous in the community, he's one of the few who actually know the history, people just dont care. Keenan, you, Robert Drysdale, Rhadi Ferguson and even Chadi are a dying breed, could be someday that people just think the Gracie family invented these techniques, some casuals I know already think like that.
Great podcast and interview! Very interesting 🤔
We Bow in, I personally love this, we drill certain techniques certain ways but then we also drill "do any technique you want", "Drill any variation or armbar you want" most of the other stuff does not apply, Our instructor is originally from Brazil here about 14 years now, checking with anyone to use the bathroom sounds crazy to me, we just run off the mat use the bathroom and bow back in
Put this on the mat burn podcast!
Love the point made re how national character can be expressed through jiu-jitsu. Traditions, social norms, language, even the theology of the wider culture will inform the way that people will express their martial spirit.
I saw this on Chadis channel and it didn't seem like a debate at all. Just a friendly discussion with no "shocking revelations" at all.
Really appreciate the conversation
I have been trying to find information on early American wrestling to see if it was submission wrestling.
Grappling is grappling the world over
Joints only bend certain ways despite what you call the move
Aye good to see you back Keenan
Keenan a Legend frfr
Love learning about grappling history ty guys !
Saying a youtuber is a historian is near slander to those who have actually spent years studying and follow historical methodology.
I get the spirit of what you're saying, but I think you are getting bogged down in the semantics and marketing of a name. Greco Roman wrestling is still called that even though Greeks and Romans have almost no contribution to the sport today. There are Russian Greco Roman Wrestlers etc. But I don't think that's the heart of what you were arguing.
Finally you're back
In my experience, being even remotely smart and/or educated in the BJJ world makes for a profoundly frustrating experience. Some of the smart people have the capacity to tolerate it, but many become frustrated and leave the sport altogether.
Not sure if this counts as a debate. Chadi is a judoka and agrees with your viewpoint.
I had this same discussion earlier this year. It sucks when you see the future is bright, but inhibited by memberberries addiction and tribalism
If we're removing Brazilian from jiujitsu because they didn't invent it and because it makes more sense for an international sport why would you then replace it with another country's name?
Not wanting bjj to be called bjj and twisting history to justify creating a new name are not the same goal.
You don't need to make false claim to some kind of lineage with random judo and jiujitsu practioners from America's past in order to argue that it doesn't make sense to call brazilian jiujitsu brazilian. You don't need to do anything to justify the corny marketing of "American jiujitsu" in general especially to people who already dislike you and will regardless. Just do it and leave the history alone if you're gonna muddy those waters.
And as an aside a shocking amount of what is considered "modern" jiujitsu, "brazilian" jiujitsu and "sport" jiujitsu was all present directly or in similar form in Judo and pre-Judo or koryu jujutsu/jujitsu/jiujitsu. This includes a lot of leglocks, "fancy" guards, wreslting up, etc. etc.
If you think you invented something you're probably wrong.
Per your comment. Can you provide a reference of something similar to worm guard or squid guard in Judo or pre-judo?
Yeah if you find anything link it please
@@gonzalosanchez6387 so just because he created these movements, therefore it's "american" jiu jitsu? 🤷🏻♀️
Ok here is the REAL question - How much does a person/family/group need to alter (change/add to/distill) an art they learned in order to rebrand what they practice as a new variant of the style?
@fritzdagger ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! From a Facebook BJJ Group, clicked on an article, where that lead to this video. As a European, having my own Fight Club in Berlin, Germany at first I fell for that anti-american sentiment my myself, what do you guys want to brand as American again. But luckily, as a fighter who has his emotion under control, my curiosity led me to push the play button. YOU ARE NOT ONLY A GREAT JiuJitsu Coach and Fighter. Keenan, you have a black belt in PR and Communication. Let me tell you something, what I see. The way you argue, the way you structure your argument. The soundness of your argument. The calmness and down to earth successful guy image you project. The selflessness of your actions, the disregard for fake rituals, the regard for healthy human beings relations based on mutual respect in your gym. YOU JUST PROJECTED EVERYTHING THAT IS MISSING IN US. POLITICS. I would even ask you why aren't you saving your country and run for president, but I know very well why. JiuJitsu can break your bone, but politics can break your life. Let me tell you this. I only know the quality of a Gracie gym here in the city. But by the power of your PR Black Belt, you just pushed into the brand American JiuJitsu the quality and principles upon which your country was founded. You just gave the brand American Jiu Jitsu more than you maybe realize. If you're ever in Berlin, Germany and want to visit for example the famous Berghain Techno temple or just grab a beer. Drinks are on me. Cheers from Europe.
Thank you! That’s exactly the point! To save the USA first we need a grass roots coalition of patriots representing something that isn’t political first. 10 years from now we may have a strong movement to affect change
@@fritzdagger that is great to read. What do you have in your mind under that word Patriot or patriotism, if I might ask?
Great stuff guys 😊
Lol I did not know Skype still existed
“It’s science…” -Ron Burgundy
I kind of get what he is saying but what do I call the sport that I am competing in when I go to a grappling industries or ibjjf tournament? Jiu-Jitsu, Submission grappling, BJJ? I would never say I'm going to an American Jiu Jitsu tournament.
If I'm in Germany playing American football, there is nothing wrong with calling it "American Football", even if there are only Germans competing.
BJJ is a tribalistic way to talk about Jiu Jitsu, so let's call it AJJ. The irony.
Still, I love all the innovation that Keenan brought to Jiu Jitsu, and great marketing stunt to bring attention to your new venture selling AJJ franchises.
EXACTLY.
Honestly man it just seems like you wanted to call it AJJ and now youre trying to justify it retroactively
Yes. He just wants it solely for the name. Not the reasonable justifications behind it. None of that, no…
Pankration in Rome?
Come on @fritzdagger. Pankration was developed in Greece. Even the word is Greek. They also had two styles of wrestling-Páli or Pále. The Olympic style, the stand up wrestling-orthia pali(first of three takedowns wins) and the other non Olympic one was called ground wrestling-kílisis(rolling) and this would end only by a submission. So probably it is Greek jiu jitsu 😉!
My bad. I really haven’t looked that far back. Thanks for the correction
interesting, do you have any links? Firas Zahabi mentioned that the ancient Greeks must have had highly advanced grappling and mma.
@@pootytang2872 I found in Greek but I think it's easy to also find in English these information. It is well known about these two styles of wrestling in ancient Greece. I forgot to mention that in the ground style there were two ways to win. Either by submission or by pin, it was basicly like catch but naked and rubbed with oil.
Keenan, love the history and being subjective along with being objective in this topic.
Not sure if you’ve watched it before or studied it. But a great documentary which is free on RUclips “For the love of Catch”. Great history of submission wrestling and its origin from the UK to the USA.
Catch is the father of many. MMA, Pro wrestling, Folkstyle, freestyle etc.
Question for Keenan,
Since AJJ is technically not BJJ then Keenan could possibly avoid the IBJJF belt system and be the first Red Belt in AJJ. Otherwise if Legion Jiujitsu academy sticks to the original IBJJF belt system then who is going to give Keenan more degrees other than himself? Obviously it doesnt matter but I'm curious who Keenan would be under at that point.
Keenan is so smug he will give it to himself
Why not just call it grappling?
Awesome 😎
Keenan, I think you should call your system American Catch Grappling and create your own rank structure.
Absolutely Tremendous Listen.
we’re getting too caught up with nomenclature. I understand the Keenan has to double down on the “American” JJ since it’s his franchise (which will eventually be about money). My concern is AJJ might devolve in to this watered down grappling - aka Karate schools.
It literally can't as long as there's competition. Karate problem was when they took out live sparing and focused on katas.
Febrile seizures are a real medical emergency.
if there are different systems of judo across the world- Japanese, Korean, Russian, Georgian, American, Cuban etc. then, IMO, there being different systems of jiu jitsu from various countries is reasonable.
Don't see the problem of calling something brazil. In my country (and I believe in Europe in general) NFL is called literally "american footbool". We have the main league called "american football something", we have the fedaration that is called "american" and so on. It really isn't a problem unless you yourself make it so. And no, BJJ (or AJJ) isn't just judo, more like judo is just wrestling or ju-jutsu/jiu-jitsu. No one can call ownership of things that are ancient as humankind itself.
Actually, my dad invented jiu jitsu
You guys are both intelligent and cool guvs. Thanks for bringing these facts to light. You guys rock.
ls there a Brazilian Jui Jitsu format that is culturally specific to self defense of women?
This made me miss Mat Burn Podcast
Guys CBJJ is IBJJF in brazil. 🤷
I didn't know this was still a hot button issue
renzo gracie did alot for american grappling
Keenan looks so grumpy
I like grumpy Keenan. @Keenan keep doing what your doing your verbalizing what a lot of people are thinking.
He was on his period
by the way, Sambo did a half step towards no-gi, by loosing pants, so you can easily practice leg attacks...
"professor's scope"
I believe from Robert drys Dale book he speaks about how carlson gracie changed the way jiu jitsu was practiced & that many gyms are following carlsons version of jiu jitsu...
This was such an amazing interesting debate. I think anti-jitsu is unique to USA 🇺🇸
Great conversation.
You are a true class act, Keenan! Thank you for bringing much needed honesty to this topic.
Just a little correction: 'SYNERGY' is when the sum is greater than its parts, not "synthesis".
let's just call it jiu jitsu and all be friends. rest is marketing and branding....
Coming from someone who appreciates what you added to the sport and tries to incorporate some of your concepts on my game, I wanted to say that you sound extremely hypocritical when you say it can’t be called Brazilian jiujitsu because it was first originated in Japan and procedes to call it American jiujitsu.
If a Brazilian is playing American football in Brazil, regardless if he’s good or not, does that gives him the right to call Brazilian football?
Should read the collection of writings by Farmer Burns. I read it 6 or 7 years ago and immediately recognized the Gracies were full of crap. I read and saw all sorts of concepts attributed to Helio being discussed and demonstrated before Helio was even born .
Facts, Farmer Burns was the man 💪🏻👊🏻
Nothing was ever attributed to helio by anyone outside his own family
Its so weird that old school bjj has all these strict codes. When I started in 1996 there was none of that except the creonte stuff. I think modern old school throwback is actually brought all this traditional code stuff. Id say between 2002-2015 created the new old school
Every critique applied to Keenan, for example that he is disrespecting the lineage applies 100 fold to the Brazilians who wanted to distance their lineage from Japan and the masters they learned from. The Gracies directly disrespect Judo and claim its inferior despite losing to Judoka in the main challenge matchels and pretending Helio invented leverage and the art of jujutsu.
Also as an aside, for those who claim BJJ is Judo for real fighting. For one ne waza is way less important in a real fight on hard ground than nage waza but even in a safe padded ring combat Sambo has been the superior tradition of combat Judo the entire time, it's become extremely obvious in MMA now even nogi. Guard specialization, that is specializing in a bad position only worked on people with no guard game at all like wrestlers and catch wrestlers.
And a good Judoka or Sambist in newaza of the same size would have done the exact same thing Royce did in UFC 1 etc. Maybe even gotten more takedowns lol.
I wish I had a gym like Keenan's close to me
did they mention luta / luch livre eventually ?
Was it “racism” for post-Pearl Harbor Americans to reject JJ because it’s Japanese? I’m not saying it was smart or productive for it to be rejected simply because of the attack (we would soon be engaged in fights to the death across various small islands t/o the Pacific against a zealous Japanese infantry - better to know what your enemy knows), but to call it racist seems to be a bit much. If it were due to racism, then JJ would have been rejected before the attack because it was Japanese then as well.
good chat, but he is definitely not a jiu-jitsu historian
Just in the first 20 minutes of so, I don't know if Keenan is right about a lot of what he's talking about...