When John calls Jesus "the Logos," is he referring to Greek philosophy?
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
- When the Apostle John begins his gospel by identifying Jesus as “the Logos,” is he comparing Christ to an idea in ancient Greek philosophy? From one of our Ask Ligonier events, W. Robert Godfrey explains what is happening at the beginning of this gospel account.
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Just want to leave a comment, because..."worthy is Lamb of God!" Thank you Lord Jesus Christ for such outstanding and amazing Grace. We, the Body, Love you!
You are speculating that there is only one way to interpret logos. Philo could have given you three different ways to unpack this logos. Are you relating to a Stoic understanding, Platonic understanding? Is logos the plan of God and Jesus was the one who revealed it? I have more questions than answers from your explanation.
Phillip said unto him, Lord show us the Father and we will be content
" You've been with me all this time Phillip and you still don't understand? To see me is to see the Father...." John 14:8-10✝️
God became man
So that man can see what God is like
@@bosse641
Numbers 23:19-A contrast. God is not like man. Man is unreliable( this can be seen in this context with Balaam). Contrast with God who is reliable, faithful, immutable ( never changing. Which is why God is love.)
God's Words always come to pass.
@@bosse641
1 Timothy 2:5- reference to Jesus being fully man. Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. Only Jesus Christ can bring God and man together. ( Oh come to the Father through Jesus the Son).
@@bosse641 it is the doctrine of Holy Scriptures.
" ... . The service of God and the promises; if whom are the fathers and from whom according to the flesh, Christ came, who is overall the ETERNALLY BLESSED GOD. Amen.
Romans 9:5
The old testament and new testament is full of Greek philosophy
Obfuscation. Sounds like he says John is saying what he’s saying because of who the audience is. But don’t go learn about what the words meant to the original audience or anything like that. If John refers to Jesus as the Logos you’d think that learning what that meant to 1st century Greeks should be the absolute next thing to do. But no, don’t do that. Move along. Nothing to see here.
100%
Exactly
Exactly right.
What did it mean then?
Thanks
Oh what a glory that will be
When my Jesus I shall see
What a hallelujah time
When we reach into that land
What a glory that will be
Amen
Thats a song not scripture.
@@RoseSharon7777 yes it is a song 🎵
I felt like rejoicing with a song like Miriam 🎶🎼
Sometimes I rejoice like David with a dance 💃
The logos of John 1:1 is the spoken word of God or "Life." Connect John 1:1 to 1John 1:1, 2. You can also connect to Genesis 1. All these verses testify that the Logos is the spoken word or life of God that was with God at the beginning.
" In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. ...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth._ John 1
Jesus Christ is the eternal God
The second person of the HolyTrinity
@@bosse641 this is the true Word of the Almighty
" Hear oh Israel to the Lord our God is ONE " Deuteronomy
The word for one does not mean
Singleness but unity
The same word is used in Genesis 2:24
" Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined together, and they shall become ONE Flesh.
ONE, - complete unity making a whole. Like a cluster of grapes,🍇
@@bosse641
have no other God
Love no other God but the ONE true and only God
Who exists as a triune God
God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit
@@bosse641
" . ..of whom are the fathers and from whom according to the flesh, CHRIST came, who is over all the ETERNALLY BLESSED GOD. Amen
Romans 9:1-5✝️
Jesus Christ the ETERNALLY BLESSED GOD
@@bosse641 Do you deny Jesus as YHWH?
@@bosse641
what about all the verses with the apostles calling Jesus God? or John 1 where it says in the beginning was the word, and the word was God, and the word became flesh and dwelt among us referring to Jesus? or how about when in the OT, Isaiah saw the glory of YHWH (Isaiah 6), but in John’s interpretation, Isaiah actually saw JESUS’ glory (John 12:41)
It's crazy because you can trace the concept of the Logos back to the Zoroastrian "Asha" and the vedic "rta" and that concept traveled west and became the Logos and east and became the Dao, then it philosophically inspired Aquinas and Locke's "Natural Law", and Lockean Natural Law theory is what liberalism was largely based in and the United States founded on. Then the US and Britain spread liberalism across the world. Now this concept is seen in some way in all major religions and the dominant political philosophy of the last 200 years.
Thank you.
Where did e michael jones get his ideas?
OHhhh! Many THANKS for the explanation. I really like to thoroughly understand things, especially things in the Bible.
Also the Logos in the Greek stoic sense embodied a moral philosophy very similar to that of Christ's. Many early Christian philosophers argued that the morality of Greek stoics and platonists was essentially Christian. Not theologically obviously but morally.
See how game plays...
He says He used also Logos to get attention of Gentiles because philosophical Logos ... But he doesn't talk about what Logos in their philosophy!!!
Logos is second God or messenger in understanding Philo of Alexandria Paganistic philosophy.... Copied understanding and brought to John 1 1 !!!
" come let us make man
In Our image
According to Our likeness"
Genesis 1: 26✝️
The first clear indication of the triuniy of God.
Elohim- " in the beginning God ( Elohim), Genesis 1:1✝️
Elohim- The name of God, is a plural form of El.
The One true God
The only God
Triune God
God the Father
God The Son
God the Holy Spirit
@@bosse641 🙄🤣🤣😂
I think John's Logos is almost the opposite of the Greek idea. Heidegger recognised that the Greek concept of Logos (the truth behind language that philosophy is aiming at) is conceived as a union of opposites through a violent process. In a sense it is just another way of describing the Sacred whose etymological root is a 'blessing and curse'. But John logos shows that Jesus is not divinity who blesses and curses, expelling in violent forms the 'enemy' to restore order, which is how pagan gods are perceived. He is himself rejected and persecuted, and preaches Love not Violence. Christ is the true logos because of his Love not any Violence which is what the Greek idea of Logos means along with all other conceptions of the sacred across the world.
Never heard of that definition.
That's strange, as these Greeks already assume what the Logos does and how it does without knowing it.
From what i could find, the Logos was defined simply as the rational order of the world.
As such, the world and history itself would be a logical consequence of that Order.
It's basically the First Cause described by Thomas Aquinas.
I think that definitinion fits perfectly with what John describes right after:
Everything is *sustentained* in him and nothing can exist without him.
In the same way, by the definition of Logos i gave, everything would fall apart without it, as there would be no logical cause to everything coming after.
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Logos is the moral and physical order of the universe which our generation in particular has rejected. Without Him nothing was created and in Him all things exist. We've rejected both the physical and moral order by our embrace of LGBTQXYZ
This 90 second video just opened my eyes and suddenly gave me an understanding like no other! It was a reawakening 🙏 NAMASTE 🙏
So does Mr. Godfrey agree with the Logos Christology or disagrees?
The logos is the nature (laws) of the universe, all things seen and unseen are made through this nature.... ask and you shall receive.... just as Isaac asked his father -where is the lamb, and he answered - God will supply the lamb.... by the very nature of the universe of attraction, the lamb of God was born who died from the light to be carnal, to rise again during baptism, just to show us how to also rise up from amongst the dead, the carnal thinking of man.
What's all the confusion about---GOODNESS! It really isn't that difficult
at ALL! GOD the FATHER is the SOURCE of the "LOGOS ( Word)."
Jesus, on the other hand----is the 'EXPRESSION' of that "LOGOS."
Jesus only "Speaks what his HOLY FATHER Commands him."
And he Speaks it just the way the FATHER teaches him.
JOHN 12:49.
GOD: The MIND, the THOUGHTS, the PLANS. HE IS the LOGOS.
JESUS: The "Anointed SAVIOR," given "Power and Authority" BY his
FATHER.
Yeh----it's really as simple as THAT!
If you read chapter 7 of Wisdom of Solomon, you'll understand what John had in mind.
There are assumptions one must draw about religion regardless of what one believes in dogma. I will endeavor to show that hell does not exist.
This will take a long message.
To start off if the universe is in infinite regress or has a cyclical nature due to the first principle of thermodynamics (that energy cannot be created or destroyed in a closed system, and all energy in existence is necessarily a closed system) then at some point in the chain, since we know it can create minds like ours, the universe would have created mind that can control the entire universe, that is, something we could call a god. If that isn't true then the cycle or regress isn't infinite, and therefore it must have been caused by something powerful enough to create and therefore control an entire universe at once, which is something we could call a god to. If neither the creation nor the created god are true, then cause and effect and energy could not have existed in tandem in infinite regress, meaning that at a finite point in time they were joined by something capable of what we can only assume were two universes, something we could call a god as well.
It's actually impossible that a god has not existed at at least one time.
From the third premise, which seems most likely according to the thought processes, we can derive that cause and effect, and therefore logic, is an a-dimensional cryptanium that, due to Zeno's dichotomy of motion requiring the existence of a chronon and therefore all things which exist have minimum units, logic must have a minimum unit that I call Thales, and nothing, being the absence of something contained as information in whatever is observing it means nothing doesn't actually exist, the point being that something which can control things around it and has power over logic is indistinguishable from a mind (Christians would call this the Logos ).
And so, at least one mind has at least once been proven to control the universe.
One thing we can derive is that the sheer effort to create an entire universe wouldn't have been made if it wasn't for a purpose, and since the only thing a first cause cannot have by definition is intelligent, truly free willed company, it is likely that He requires us to be at least neutral in his eyes and he must remain at least neutral in ours in order for the relationship to continue unabated. The only way to stay at least neutral in a world full of suffering is to offer long-standing, finite justice in an afterlife and then a neutral afterlife after that.
In other words, there is a god, he does care about us, and there is an afterlife.
Now here's the problem. You as a human have a moral obligation to not follow a god who tortures, especially one who tortures eternally as there can be no justice after that torture, that includes being against god and against satan in both Christianity and Islam. You may support neither. This is not a condemnation of God mind you, it is a convocation to behold a God that does not torture, everything scientifically coherent about the religion you adhere to can be believed as long as one believes what I've stated here. In other words,I'm a Christian, I just don't believe in hell.
John 1:1 is referring to the beginning of the gospel not the beginning before Genesis. Mark 1.
but why this man hide the true understanding of John1:1 ? Answer= Because he is a trinitarian !! The Word belong to Yahweh ALONE and nobody else and this Word or breath of the Spirit who is the Father alone came in BODILY FORM as the sacrificial Lamb to saves is peoples and Jesus is Yahweh our Father in flesh.All things been created by Elohim (The Father) and all these things been created TROUGH or BECAUSE of the begotten Son who before is incarnation was Yahweh or I AM ! It's Yahweh who came as the Savior BECAUSE there is only one Savior.
Isaiah45.21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
"And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, 'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.' Amen." - Matthew 28:18-20
If you are not a trinitarian, you are not a Christian.
@@wauliepalnuts6134 lol I do not see your triune gods being three differents gods in what you quote, you presume but do not prove !!!!! We are saves if we believe in Jesus ALONE , AND NOT IN YOUR TRIUNE PAGAN GODS ! You preach a false God and a false gospel also. Who was the God of Jesus mr Magoo ? the trinity or the Father? Look what the bible SAY : 17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’” ... so as you can READ the only biblical God it's THE FATHER ( Maybe for you Jesus is also a liar and not saves because HE DO NOT BELIEVE IN A TRIIUNE GODS BEINGS THREE DIFFERENT PERSONS :) you are a follower of the roman catholic who proclaim God as a trinity of three person in 325 a.d. But God never been three but always been ONE (echad) and it's the greatest commandment.
Only one God THE FATHER manifest in the flesh as the Son 1Tim.3:16 John1:14
@@michelhaineault6654 You're a heretical protestant. Your "faith" centers around the needs of individuals. Your "church" is merely the byproduct of a disgruntled catholic, another heretic.
You have no connection to the apostles or the teachings of Jesus Christ as you have no apostolic succession. I will pray for you.
The Memra "Word" is Jewish.
Its vital to see the difference between the Greek philosophers notion of the 'LOGOS' & John's use of the same word! Plato, Philo, wrote about the "Principle of 'divine REASON", thus the later church fathers most of whom were scholars educated in Hellesnistic greek philosophy before they 'converted' to christianity.( like Augustine who was greatly influenced by Plato ). conjectured that since God has always possessed reason, thus the 'Logos', God's son in John 1:1 also has always existed! However this is based on a A FALSE premise! Because the 'Logos' 'The Word' of John was God's Son, His spokesman, His representative. As Jesus said " I do nothing of my own authority but in all I SAY, I HAVE BEEN TAUGHT BY MY FATHER". This definition of the bible use of 'Logos'. 'the word' is shown in John 4|:39 where the people of Samaria spoke of "the WORD (logos) of the woman". Did she 'reason' with them ( greek = diialogizmai) No she 'spoke words' to them which she in turn received from Christ just as he in turn had received them from his Father, Almighty God! ( Jesus even told the woman that the "true worshipers will worship THE FATHER in spirit and truth" ( John 4:23,24). So to understand the bible, we dont just pick out one short statement, we look at the overall context and the biblical meaning of certain words, not the philosophical! This will reveal that what John said about the 'word' was the truth; "The Word became flesh and we had a view of his Glory, the GLORY OF AN ONLY BEGOTTEN SON FROM THE FATHER". So was the 'Word' God himself? NO for John also said No one has SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME". The 'Word'= Jesus Christ, God's SON.
Logos means Logos and the use of it at the start of John ONLY makes sense in terms of Greek philosophy.
But if it's important to you to think otherwise, by all means come up with convoluted heuristics to try and justify thinking otherwise.
I just don't have that motivation, and therefore that's all pointlessness as far as I'm concerned.
@@Eman_Puedama Sorry my friend, but as a bible scholar I can assure you that The apostle John, who was called "an unlettered and ordinary man" Would NOT have used greek philosophy when he wrote his gospel! His 'Word' . He was just shown that as Paul sated "In the past God spoke to us by means of the prophets, but in these days has SPOKEN TO US MY MEANS OF HIS SON" ( please read Heb 1:1,2). Thus John was showing that God speaks to you & me through his Son. As for the'Logos' in greek philosophy, it was something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. 'Universal reason' that has alwys been in the universe e.t.c. Please chek this for yourself by typing in 'The Logos in greek philosophy'.
@@Eman_Puedama Look my friend! I am trying to be totally impartial. I have no religious agenda to defend as most on these posts! a. The greek 'Logos' is NOT THE SAME as the 'Word of John! He was, as I demonstrated with other verses, describing a FUNCTION of Jesus who said " As my Father has taught me, so I speak these words" ( John 8:26) He was speaking of a PERSON, not an indefinable divine, universal 'reason' of thought, which admitedly the Creator of necessity has always possessed!. John was a fisherman, a man "unlettered and ordinary" ( Acts 4:13) unlike the majority of 'church Fathers' who spend years studying greek philosophy before their conversion and did definitely weave it into their explanations of the gospel. Would you like more examples? As I read the words of Jesus, Paul and Peter, they all warned and fortold that this very thing would happen! It was an attempt to 'popularise' Christianity to make it more acceptable to people who were living within the hellenist culture of the day! This whole compromise led to a state church far removed in belief and practice from the pure gospel of Christ and his little band of faithfuly apostles! I|ts all documented in impartial history!
You are using philosophy in your post, though. All the while railing against philosophy. That's what makes it difficult for me to trust you.
@@Th3BigBoy Thanks for your reply! Look, we all have our points of view and agendas! I feel my advantage is that I am not fettered or influenced by any denominations set of doctrines! However, Please give me a specific example of a comment I have made that you say is 'philosophy' and I will address it and reply. I'am sure we both are serving the same God though!
Logos was the decree from God from the beginning before the foundation of the earth, the decree was with God and the decree was God. He pre ordained the coming of the son of man. No one could change that decree. And the decree or the word of God became flesh thru prophecies and was known as the son of God but the living God of Genesis one and creator was living inside that prophecy made flesh God never became flesh, he manifested himself in that vessel of flesh and bone. Our ultimate sacrifice sent by the living true God for our salvation.
And his name from everlasting was bestowed upon the man that the world knows as jesus Christ and conquered death thru the spirit of the true God and all power was given unto him and our only TRUE GOD'S NAMES IS JESUS CHRIST our Savior.... Glory to my GOD Jesus Christ.
And yes i do believe in the one-ness of God i dont believe in polytheism only One God from everlasting and his name shall be known as THE ANOINTED SAVIOR/ JESUS CHRIST
Lol modalism heresy, all oneness have different views on God.
The YaHUDYM know YaHUaH is One. John 1:1-3 is Will not Word. See Revelation 4:11.
John does not care about your Greco-Roman philosophy. He is of the NaTsaRYM Sect of 1st Century Judaism.
The Greco-Roman "logos" is never compatible with the "Word" of the faith of Israel.
1:23
Jesus is the new name given to every son begotten of Gods LOGOS. When the logos is born within us. Thus the christ (logos) IN YOU is the hope of glory. James 1:18, I Peter 1:3. Its was a metaphor that got corrupted and many mistranslations. The truth is here a little there a little.
Jesus Christ
Fully God and fully man
@@bosse641
The second Adam had to be fully God and Fully man
First, Only a human can pay for the sins of humans, BUT NOT A SINFUL HUMAN.
Second, A human cannot bear the wrath of God's anger against sin. For this Jesus Christ had to be God.
For our redemption Jesus Christ had to be fully God and fully Man.
The perfect sacrifice
P.S. we are thankful he is fully God and fully man. If not we are still in our sins😱
@@bosse641
Being fully man he was able to die, because he was fully a man
Being fully man he became hungry
" After fasting . He hungered"
Matthew 4:2
Being fully man he became weary and slept
" As they sailed, he fell asleep"
Luke 8:23
Being fully human like us he grew from a child to an adult
" And the child grew and became strong in spirit, filled with wisdom and the grace of God was upon him."
Luke 2:40
" For in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily..."
Colossians 2: 9✝️
@@bosse641 the flesh died not the spiritual essence of Jesus that is God...
@@bosse641
Isaiah35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you. 5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
Matthew11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see: 5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
John5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John10:30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
John14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
John20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Exodus3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Enough scripture Mr. Grytbakk?
@@bosse641 except that jesus said he had the power to lay down and raise his own life.
Memra in the Targums maps to Logos and is proto-Trinitarian.
Nice. Do u remember where does it appears?
@@ryrosflammare1172 let me know if you see the link. There should be a number of other resources I could find with some sleuthing
@@geoffrobinson unfortunately i dont see the link
@@ryrosflammare1172 ok, Ligonier probably automatically hides comments with links in them. So long story short there are some passages in the Old Testament which use "the word of the Lord appears in a vision" or something like that. What does that mean for the topic at hand?
Well, when we hear "word" we think audible communication but you see "the word of the LORD ... in a VISION." So there's something more going on.
In the Targums, (Aramaic translations of Scripture) Jews picked up on this and replaced "the LORD" with "the Word of the LORD" in some spots.
So this is part of the backdrop for John 1 I would think.
@@geoffrobinson ohh so let me see if i got: originally, it was written, like "The Lord appeared to Jeremiah saying: i have called you since your mother's womb, and(...)", but in Targum they translated as "The Word of the Lord came to Jeremiah saying: i have called you(...)? I understand it, if its this way. I ve heard Michael Heiser explaining this same subject, of Jesus appearing to Samuel,Jeremiah, many others, as" the Word came to Ezekiel,saying". Then i thought :"thats really really interesting...i hope hes not forcing any further interpretation, be cause i feel its sort of possible that its really the Logos here".
Thank you for your cooperation🍞🍷
This is such a waste of time. Please quit fielding these questions that have no bearing whatsoever on Salvation. This is the short answer, John was inspired directly by the Holy Spirit to Write what he Wrote. Period. If I were Satan, the way I would attack Reformed Theology would be to waste time in meaningless questions such as this.
Respectfully. You don't live your life only according to "salvation issues."
@@Th3BigBoy I completely disagree, Salvation is everything! Without it, what is the point?!
@@JD-je3fg You are disagreeing with a point I didn't make.
@@Th3BigBoy I really don't care 🙄🙄
@@JD-je3fg What the heck is your problem?