Why "Back to Eden" Gardening Doesn't Work for Us
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- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2018
- On this week's Row by Row Gardening Show, the guys talk about the "Back to Eden" gardening fad and why it doesn't work as well as some may think.
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Still one of my favorite gardening talk videos. Especially what Greg starts to explain starting at 17:00 minutes.
Spot on guys, I am located in SC... I had more bugs the year after the mulch application along with weeds as well. ... a lot of hand work weeding , required constant pulling to stay on top of the weed issue.
You guys are great. Always stay together.
It’s nice to see proponents for tilling and row cropping. It seems like the no- tillers have taken over RUclips and try to make you feel dumb If you till. The BTE and similar methods are interesting - even intriguing - but not for me. I like row cropping and tilling - the 10,000 years of plowing and tilling by our ancestors can’t all be wrong!
Good topic with lots of passion. Just moved to TX from UT. Bought Hoss seed for the first time. My indoor start have a high germination rate and look good. I companion crop using BTE with a manure base when transplanting. Wish me luck in this new climate.
Thanks for your seed order! We hope you have a bountiful garden this year!
It's easy to garden here in Illinois because of the prime soil and bugs eliminated by hard freezing. . However, tride and true row gardening gets you lots of food. The food forest concept is ok for an area with perennials like rhubarb, fruit trees, grapes, asparagus etc. I love these Hoss videos- makes me want to move to Georgia , Alabama or Florida-- but the best I can do is order some Hoss seeds that will work here . I'm interested in those seminole pumpkins and shine eggplant
I have watched a bunch of your videos recently, lots of good info. Planning on buying a double wheel hoe and a seeder soon. I was just thinking last night "I wonder why none of these RUclips low till, no till, back to Eden market garden channels don' t appear to use your great products." Haha, I think I just found my answer with this video. You may have ruffled a few of their feathers. Good for you.
Haha. We do what works for us. If Back to Eden works great for someone else, great for them.
BTE,, well i'm in south jersey, and i'm sure if i tried i could get some wood chips here,, but,, we have so much in the way of fall leaves, i just use compost on everything. now i would never tell someone their wrong, do what works best for you. BTE,, traditional gardening ,, ruth stout... it's all good if it works for you. I like to try and do anything i can to not till the soil, but my garden is new, we cleared trees in order to have a larger garden space, and we have sand, so composting is what works best for us, but if a tiller is needed,, well,,, oh well. Also,, i think there is a big difference between what i would call casual backyard gardening and gardening on a scale to produce the primary food source for one or more families, let alone getting into a farming type situation.
But,, there ya go,, dif strokes for dif folks,, be well,, keep gardening,,, and Hoss,,, keep up the great work you guys ROCK!
Thanks Yanks! Do what works for you! That is the best advice someone could give.
I'm one of your good customers I would enjoy a Row by Row stickers
Thank you, y'all have no idea. I busted the axle on my front tine and wound up turnin four 4×16 plots with a hand tiller. So it's been worked a little but it's some thick red brick
Those Tillage Radish will definitely help. With some consistent cover cropping, you'll have that soil nice and workable in a couple years.
I built a 4'x10'x12" raised bed..I put hdwe cloth on the bottom.first I layered cardboard the grass clippings and then about 7" of fresk oak/poplar chips.I took clipping off some radiator charlie and cherokee purple out of the eight I planted only one has survived. I am not satisfied that this is for me but I will give it a try again next spring. I am also going to transplant some collards mustards cabbage and brussell sprouts next week. Will let you know how it works out..
Definitely let us know!
sure will
Have you ever tried soybean mulch? I’m using it for the first time this year and have been very impressed so far.
Never tried that. Not many soybeans grown around here any more.
He leaves out a ton, like the fact that he feeds his chickens feed as well as crops. I found that out in another video from someone. He also loads chicken manure compost on the garden. It isn't just wood chips fertilizing. On a side note, what do you guys think of Square Foot Gardening?
Square foot gardening is a great practice for raised beds on a small scale and for teaching kids how to space plants. But it's not really practical for larger gardens.
)MN,
What do you fellas think about the square foot method for raised beds ? Thanks
Seems like a good way to lay out the beds. 1 foot spacing is usually what we do with all of our fall crops.
I agree with you 100%. I'm not into the back to eden idea (movement)
Works for some, doesn't for the rest of us.
Last spring in n Louisiana I put straw on my garden we had wet spring after planting my ground stayed wet ground soured plants were yellow the only thing that done good was my corn so I agree it doesn't work for everyone in all parts of the country
It works for folks who don't grow food year round or expect quick crop turnover.
Excellent content
Much appreciated
I used to use bulldog soda years ago on everything, including the yard. I had to mow 3 times a week and it made the thickest, greenest lawn you’d ever seen, but just don’t miss a day mowing cause you’ll need a bush hog the next day.
I started using bulldog soda after they made it impossible for us to get ammonium nitrate and now I can’t find the bulldog soda anymore so it’s nice to hear that the Chilean nitrate is the same thing but I think it’s gonna be cost prohibitive for me to use now. I used to take 55 gal barrels to the feed mill and fill each one slap full for $10 each and Y’all are good guys but I just don’t see ya matching that price for me.
Unfortunately, shipping costs become prohibitive on large amounts of fertilizer. That's why we only sell it in the smaller bags.
Ok, so first off, Paul Gautschi is in Washington state, not Alaska. I do agree you brought up some good points and everybody's situation is different, but I can tell you that for us, Back to Eden has worked quite well, our main issues were very hard to work soil, and poor drainage, also very low (5 ish) ph. I can say that the woodchips helped to moderate the drainage almost immediately, much like adding gravel does around a septic or foundation, they also sponged up and retained water quite well. This has reduced our watering to virtually none as there is just about always moisture in the soil 6-8 inches down(we do get roughly 50 in annually, but definetly have dry periods in the growing season). It is not an instant effect, we have been using the system for 3-6 years depending on the area and it gets better every year. It definetly reduced weeds although we do use cover crops and tarps because weeds do definetly germinate on top. I believe that soil microbiology is super important and because our soil was very low in organic matter, this has helped to spur fungal activity in particular which has brought our soil back to life. I do agree that environments with above ground termites, this could be a real drawback, but i can definetly say that in zones 7 and north, I do not believe this would be an issue (it hasn't been for me, nor have I ever seen termites in mulch or wood chips in our area--i work pest control). I also believe that wood chips can tie up nitrogen if tilled into the soil, but that is not how the system works, so that shouldn't be an issue. Our plants thrive with no fertilization other than compost. I guess maybe the most important take away here is--It is a system, don't just take one part of it. We get wood chips from a tree service so there are leaves and such mixed in, which helps with fertility. I also see your point about using a seeder, we do put in transplants mostly, for corn and beans we make a furrow 3-4 in deep (through the chips) and then drop them in, only lightly covering by hand also adding some fertilizer to the furrow with the corn. We garden mostly annuals in roughly 12,000 sq ft of garden plots--Zone 7a NC
I always get one worm hiding right in the center when corn is young
Those pesky rascals!
What is the ideal % of soil organic matter for a garden? Also would old hay be a good material to use?
Good question. I don't believe there is such thing as too much compost. Be careful with hay and make sure it hasn't been sprayed with any long-term herbicides.
I had wild Japanese Pumpkin whichI left to grow out of a compost bin, I gave them all away to friends i even gave on to my Doctor. The feedback ack was great they said the taste was amazing compared to the supermarket even my Doctor family enjoyed the taste.
That is awesome!
I have hard clay soil, waiting to get soil test in, in central Texas, I layered 2inches of stalled horse manure/shavings, then 6 inches of free wood chips from city mulch that have sat at least 6 months, I will be trying the sod buster radishes. Anything to get this ground loosened up. I have not tilled in yet. I am open to any suggestions.
Tillage radish as a cover crop is a great idea. It aerates the soil and scavenges nutrients from deep.
You'll get a similar result with Bush beans or peas.
Where do you get your the Seminole pumpkin seeds?
Right here: hosstools.com/product/seminole-pumpkin/
What is your growing season down over there? Here is May to September.
ALL. YEAR. LONG!
@@gardeningwithhoss lucky you:)
I tried BTE here in North Georgia, I lost my entire garden to fire ants, you couldn't even walk in there without being attached. Also, termites moved in and ate all the fence posts surrounding my garden, had to replace them all :-(
Sorry to hear that. This gardening thing is a continual learning experience where we all learn something new every year.
I planted about 30 pepper plants this year and didn't hardly get any peppers off them. The plants looked good and not a lot of bug pressure. I'm at a loss and what to do next year, any advice?
Could be a pollination issue?
I don't think so. I guess I need to retest my soil.
A few years back I had not started any pepper plants and ended up buying some from the hardware store. Beautiful plants, but not the first pepper. I never knew why, but wondered if it was a hybrid cross that proved to be sterile.
What cover crop would you suggest for controlling nut grass??????????????????
Need something with a dense cover like Crimson Clover.
Hoss Tools
Thanks once again!!!!!
Hoss Tools
Thanks once again!!!!!
Good afternoon I have been watching and enjoying ya'lls Youtoube channel. I was wondering If ya'll could do a video on garden planning and layout and cover topics like how many hours of work a week roughly is needed to maintain a garden of a certain size using Hoss seeder and cultivators. And general thoughts on management for gardens from a logistical and planning stand point
Good idea. We will definitely consider that!
the mans name is paul Gautschi he also adds manure and compost from his hen house it not just wood chips so his videos are misleading
He also doesn't plant near as intensively as we do. When you grow things close together, the weeds get shaded and there's not much need for mulch.
He does say he uses chicken manure mixed in in some of the videos
I wouldn't say they're misleading so much as he doesn't really explain anything. It's all just a bunch of handwaving and magical thinking. He does mention chickens and manure, and I know if I tried it on my property, I would be overrun with millipedes and pill bugs, which would be great for chickens, but you can't have chickens just running loose in your garden. They'd wreck it in no time. I agree with Greg in that for most people, in most areas, with most crops, a cover cropping method is going to work much better.
If you think putting down all those wood chips is hard labor, not to mention expensive, wait until you have to get them up because the garden is failing. Once you have to screen all your soil to remove the wood chips you will have exerted more labor than a conventional garden needs in several lifetimes.
Can't even imagine trying to remove them. No wood chips for us!
I'd use a tractor with a landscape rake, rake them in a pile and take the loader and scoop up and haul off
I am glad you did this video. The back to eden concept, I have been watching a lot of videos on and it just doesn’t make sense to me. Planting your veg plants around trees and so forth. Can’t wrap my head around putting these plants in any random place. Sorry but nothing compares to a gardens beautiful rows of plentiful harvest. I talked to a landscaper about bring a load of wood chips-that was gonna be over a thousand dollars to get me started. WHAT? I don’t know ant arborists to bring them to me for free. The Bible isn’t a gardening manual either. But could you elaborate on the effects of conventional fertilizer and the effects on the soil and microorganisms. Does it kill that in the soil and ruin the soil? Why organic gardening? I get the pesticide part, I don’t want that on my food but I don’t get the no fertilizer part. Thank you. Love this very real channel.
Synthetic fertilizers can accumulate salts in the soil long-term, so you don’t want to use them solely. But they do provide a pop that you can’t get with most organic fertilizers.
Here in Australia we have a set up called MulchNet. It is a website that links arborists to people who want woodchips. You put in a request and if an arborist in your area wants to get rid of his load, he will contact you and arrange where to dump it. All for free.
@@credenza1 ok, thank you. Sounds like a great program
Ever heard about wood chips tying up nitrogen in the soil?
YES! If you incorporate them into the soil, they will definitely do that.
Ties up more water year 1 for sure.
So, how would you go about transitioning from BTE to the traditional method of row by row that you use?
You need to remove the wood chips that aren't decomposed. If you've been using BTE, the soil should be fairly well conditioned so there shouldn't be much more you would need to do.
We raise the cherokee tan pumpkin they seem to taste better to us than the seminole. BTE dosent work for us either.
Haven't tried the Cherokee Tan. Does it have the same disease-resistant properties of the Seminole?
@@gardeningwithhoss Yes it does ive been able to grow these and help get them back into existence they were almost exstinct at one time. Send me an address and i will get you some to start growing on the place there. We are trying to get them back into the hands of people. Our last ones lasted a full year and were still good.
Will send you an email. Would love to grow a seed crop to help you get the variety back up and going.
I am from SC. I am more into verticle plowing these days. We have a lot of blueberry type soils like Alma hard pans. As far as no-till goes I honestly think anything more that dibbling in a seed with a screw driver is really no-till. LOL. So subsoiling is not really no-till. No matter how necessary it is. I-95 came through and killed HWY 301 that runs through Allendale SC and Statesboro GA. Poor old Allendale fared worse. That's where I learned that a crack that lets a root through works. My example is dog fennels grew through the cracks in the sidewalks in down town Allendale. Learn to farm what you got.
Really enjoy your shows. I have one request. On you back wall hang a sigh that tells the season your discussing. I flip through looking for spring relaters stuff and watch half a show on winter turnips. I do not need the date of filming just the season, sprint, summer,, fall, winter. Thanks
If you look at the video publish date in the description, you'll know what season we're talking.
A few weeks ago y’all talked about burying drip tape. And how all the market gardeners in the northeast lay it on top. What the market gardeners also do is topdress their beds with thick layers of compost. Wondering your thoughts on whether compost needs to be buried as well in the Deep South. I’m in zone 8b in south Louisiana with a small market farm. I’m going with a lot of compost on top this fall so I guess I’ll see what happens. My name is Ben.
Depends on whether you're using the compost to amend soil and make it more workable, or if you're using it as a fertilizer. We use manure-based compost which is high in nitrogen. Others use compost made with decomposed plant material, which adds organic matter but doesn't provide much fertility. Our soils are pretty workable without the compost, so it's easy for us to just put it in the furrow where the tape is going. That puts the compost right where the plant roots are going to be, and it conserves compost because we don't use as much compared to spreading it over the entire garden.
Hoss Tools that’s a good point. I have a sandy loam and it is easy to work but also dries out very quickly. I’m going to experiment. Top dress some beds. Bury some compost. And top dress and bury some. I can only find manure based compost as well in my area so might just be better to bury it. Plus I guess it costs a lot less than covering the entire bed! This spring I planted each transplant by digging the hole and added compost and chicken manure to every single plant. Tomatoes, peppers, squash, etc. and that worked pretty good. Thanks
Hoss Tools .
The wood chips will sap the nitrogen from your soil to decompose. Allow the process to happen naturally.
Yep, and they take a long time to decompose.
@@gardeningwithhoss I could be wrong, bit I think any method can work. However, with that said, depending on certain conditions, adjustments and amendments may still be necessary. My advice would be,. " Just get growing. Take care of the rest as we get going." You guys do a great job by the way.
I have been putting wood chips on my vege garden paths for a few years now. Here in Western Australia we lifeless sandy soils in many areas. I put the woodchips down to suppress weeds and for aesthetic reasons. Now several years later the soil underneath is developing into rich black organic soil. I have lettuces growing wild in the paths in places. I am contemplating alternating the paths with the existing beds for growing - grow in the paths on year and the beds the next. It is definitely a long term process.
Just started with deep wood chips in one of my gardens this past year. 1 foot deep. Planted tomatoes and peppers in holes I added compost and organic fertilizer to.
Great results first year. I also planted two rows of beans into a row prepped with the same compost and fertilizer. All produced great and almost no weeds at all. The weeds that did sprout were pulled easily.
I also raise sweet corn and other crops conventionally . It also works for me. Can’t shake the thought that being against some gardening methods are driven by being in business of selling tillage tools.
Back to Eden ok for backyard hardening in limited space
It's practical for limited space and folks that only grow a spring garden with minimal crop turnover.
Back to Eden gardening seems to work best where there is a cold Fall and Winter. Sure doesn't work for me here in Florida!
It's definitely not a good strategy in areas where we grow food year round.
That's the truth, I'm in north east Florida best time to grow is spring. We dont have regular seasons
Really have to make sure it's a variety of different sizes and kinds of mulch, and should be composting and keep adding the compost every year. Adding in the chemicals really disrupts the dirt biome. And not supposed to till in back to eden method. That really turns up the seeds and then ya get weeds...can add in electroculture for added humph 🥰
As a customer of Hoss, and I also have a BTE garden, I ask you to reconsider this strategy of protecting your market, and instead look for ways to also sell to BTE people in addition to your existing market. I just assumed you would have certain tools available for BTE and since I watch your videos, I clicked on your channel and typed in "Backed to Eden, Wood Chips, Tools" in attempt to see what you sold for BTE. I use your tools and also I love BTE. To follow up Paul use uses Chicken Manure, so do you. Paul says the wood chips will use nitrogen, so do you. Paul plants in the soil not the wood chips, so do you. I also think your channel would pick up a lot views and subscribers if you had a BTE garden and made tools for it. Thanks for the quality tools you build. They are of great quality.
Thanks for your comment. The BTE style will work great for someone who only grows a relatively small garden or grows only a single season per year. But we are growing year round and constantly turning over crops, using cover crops, and direct seeding many fast-growing crops. For quick crop turnover and direct seeding, it's not very efficient to have to remove mulch each time. We also grow much more food in a given space than does Paul. We've seen his videos, and his use of space is not designed to maximize the potential of the growing area.
I don’t see it as “Market Protection”. I think you should view this as a matter of their integrity. They aren’t saying you are a fool to follow BTE. They are simply saying it doesn’t work for their area/needs. The tools they make are based on what works for them. I’m sure they all started as designs they used and then turned into production for others to buy. “Hey where’d you get that? I’d like one of those!” These tools like BTE, likely won’t work the same in all areas. Heavy clay etc. Which is the same argument they are making about BTE. Now did I just call them idiots for the tools they make? Of course not, they are great tools for anyone growing in a similar dirt/circumstances etc.
Integrity. To make a series of tools for a growing style they don’t use and thereby have no real way of knowing if they will even work would be very disingenuous.
So instead of “pushing” the world to make it fit your way, look for people doing BTE with the same integrity as the Hoss group, and buy equipment tried and tested from them.
Jonathan Long it’s all good. I am in Tennessee which is a neighboring state to where Hoss is so similar soils. I like Hoss and I am a long time subscriber and have used their tools. BTE is growing in leaps and bounds too. We have red clay soil here and I am sure happy I learned bte gardening when growing in red soils. Strawberries are in year three bte and every person we have them too has said best, sweetest and most juicy strawberries ever, followed by getting wood chips to grow their own.
suffolkshepherd that is great and I’m glad to hear it. Do you run into a problem getting manure or compost that doesn’t have a herbicide in it? I’m currently in Arkansas and its been a problem for me this year. Lost both early and late tomato plantings to it.
@@jonathanlong8682 We raise Registered Texel Sheep so cleaning the barn produces all that we need. And we use no commercial fertilizer at all. There is a really good book called "Teaming with Microbes" that is very helpful. Sheep manure can go straight on the garden even if it is not BTE. We also have a chicken coop. Chicken must be composted first for a tilled garden but not a BTE as it is just a top layer. Many of the BTE I know are getting Rabbits as that is another manure that can go straight on with no composting. You may want to look into rabbits.
Like Greg said good chance them back to edeners may starve
😂
It doesnt work because you are rookies that dont pay attention to all the details
Haha. Rookies we are not. We've been gardening our entire lives. It doesn't work for us because it's very time consuming to remove the mulch each time we replant. When you're growing food year round and turning over crops every 30-50 days, that adds up quickly. Wood chips also harbor termites like crazy here in the deep south.
@@gardeningwithhoss remove the mulch?...are you sure it's BTE we are talking about?
The sarcasm and extreme lack of experience is well displayed in your comments pertaining to the BTE method. It's a shame and sorry gentleman but this misguidedness is what actually incites and makes people rally against one another and not work together unfortunately. And the purpose of your operation is??? Please look into some education before you choose to show the lack of publicly as you definently displayed and made things for yourself more questionable than the message you tried to deliver. Seriously fellas, things do back fire for those that try to impress upon others with lack of content and knowledge just like others using videos as your friends in South MS pilfering the public while proclaiming prophetic characteristics. Seriously!!!
The Homesteaders Workshop our customers and viewers are some of the most experienced gardeners you’ll find. For quick turnover and year round gardening, the BTE method is simply not efficient.
@@gardeningwithhoss fellas there is no interest concerning the merits of your customers or viewers, I do however have question, as was stated earlier, about your missrepresentation and manner of pertaining to a very successful and practical method of horticulture and those that have exercised that proven method for many years. Based upon your earlier statements you gentleman misspoke and clearly don't have adequate experience nor facts to support your personal theories or allegations. You should consider looking further into practical operations that actually have supporting facts and results as there are many available to you and some not too far from you. Nothing personal but sometimes people can be mistaken and unfortunately mislead others in so doing as we see so often from a Utube platform. I believe you gentleman can do better in representation for the agriculture community but than again given the fact of not knowing you personally, I could very well be wrong. I challenge you to please look into those fields of horticulture and organics further before extending yourselves in such a presumptuous manor or simply remain content within the area of expertise you do actually know. Thank you
They’re right. Sorry, but the truth hurts. BTE is WAY more time consuming than any other method
@@mattbrown746 I'm not sure if these guys are using the same BTE method that everyone else is talking about. They keep talking about removing mulch to plant new crop that kind of defeats the whole purpose of the BTE system to begin with where mulch is lay down year after year increasing the quality of the soil. I'm not a large scale farmer but BTE is by far the most hands off gardening I've done in years with the best results. 1 The soil gets better every year. I'm not weeding because the weed seeds are not germinating on the dry top portion of the mulch chips. Instead of watering everyday I'm watering once a week and even that probably doesn't need to be done it's just an old habit I can't kick.
@@thehomesteadersworkshop I completely agree it's like they took part of the BTE method and created their own rules making it more complicated than it really is.