Mail is just the single most practical armor in all of history from ease of use, cost, cleaning, protection etc. only real issue is the long time to make, but back then what else would an armor maker do all day hey.
@@Csarcitime to make makes it pretty costly Mail maybe was best 200 years ago, but now it's much easier and therefore cheaper for me to buy steel sheet, steel scissors and cut out chunks to create coat of plates
@@favkisnexerade you’d have to get a pretty heavy gauge of sheet steel to replicate a coat of plates you may have to use something like a hacksaw or angle grinder if you want stop a good thrust. I’m not sure if a pair of snips would……CUT IT!…..I’m sorry
Originally posted on Quora by: Sage "Roman legionaries used wax to waterproof their clothing and equipment during inclement weather. They would heat the wax and then apply it to their clothing and equipment, such as their tents, to make them water-resistant. They also used oil and tallow to waterproof their leather gear. Additionally, they would use a type of oiled cloth called a "mantum" as a rain cape." Also: A birrus or birrus brittanicus was a rainproof, hooded woollen cloak (or simply a hood alone), characteristically worn in Britain and Gaul at the time of the Roman Empire and into the Middle Ages.[
Here's a tip: Let your metal heat up in the sun, *and then* apply your protective oil of choice. Bring it in to cool, and then wipe up the excess. The microscopic surface imperfections in the metal will trap oil. Those imperfections expand and contract with the metal as it is heated and cooled. Oiling while heated means that the oil will work its way deeper and more thoroughly into those surface imperfections, and letting cool with the excess still on it will cause it to retain as much as possible within the surface of the metal. I do this with new blades, tools, and firearms components. It's basically like seasoning an iron skillet, same principle.
@@dylanhunt5655forged steel is still porous, and steel worked with other methods is divoted or scratched, it's just not visible to the naked eye and only sometimes detectable by touch. But it becomes immediately visible if you allow condensation to form on the surface and allow it to start forming surface rust.
Brigandines were significantly more popular in Iberia where conflict with the Moors was a more regular threat than conflict with other European states. And while brigandines were worn in many places outside Europe, plate was much more limited in popularity even when it was available to purchase.
In Saharan and sub-Saharan Africa, armours that can be taken on and off quickly are favoured for exactly that reason. When heatstroke is coming on you don't want to have to wait for someone to help you out of your armour.
@@favkisnexeradehe important part to ventilate is your core. You can wear a thin gambeson or arming coat underneath but you could also not and instead have just removable sleeves that attach to the brigantine for arm protection and wear a plain undershirt. Since the brig has both structure and some give, I'd say it's not nearly as vital to wear secondary protection against shocks like you do with chainmail and by knitting some padding around the armpits and collar you don't have to worry so much about chafing either. At the very least, it will be more comfortable than enduring the heat.
When it describes the clothing of the Knight, the prologue to Geoffrey Chaucer's Canterbury Tales says "Of fustian he wered a gipoun, All bismottered with his habergeoun". I.e. the knight is wearing a fustian jupon that has been stained by his mail hauberk. Presumably this was a result of rust transferring onto the fabric, although maybe because it has been treated with something to weatherproof it. The line is clearly intended to show that the knight is a true soldier who has recently been on campaign. This is in contrast to his son, the Squire, "A lover and a lusty bacheler' who is portrayed as inexperienced, fancily-dressed and more concerned with enjoying himself than with fighting.
I immediately went to plate for all the reasons you mentioned but mainly the weight increase of the brigantine when wet. Armor is heavy enough as it is, and doubling that weight will tire you very quickly. A tired warrior can easily become a dead warrior.
After my first time wearing full mail & plate harness while doing wind sprints, jumping jacks and similar exercises to test the overall fit as well as for the experience of doing so, I wholeheartedly agree!
wouldn't it depend on the fabric, though? Properly treated leather is more water-proof than clothe. Also, you have to wear a gambison regardless of armor anyway, and is this one is insanely heavy while soaked.
@@benjaminthibieroz4155 You wouldn't have a "gambeson" regardless of armor. In both types of armor here and especially considering the time period, you would have a thin arming doublet underneath them that is only a few layers of linen. Sure, it would probably gain weight when soaked, but it's a much lighter garment than the 30ish layer gambeson you were probably picturing.
Hi Matt, can you please make a video on how cavalry vs cavalry engagements work? For example, in GoT's Battle of the Bastards, the horses directly smash into each other at full speed, which just seems suicidal for everyone involved. Or is it a difference between light cavalry vs heavy cavalry?
Super long story short, cavalry's usage changed over time and varied by region. But charging was a mainstay of Medieval warfare including outside the European context, which is kinda crazy considering barding (horse armor) was usually very limited including for heavy cavalry. In Antiquity though charges were far rarer, with heavy cavalry tending to slow down as they closed to melee, using the horse as a platform more than anything. Light cavalry generally stuck to skirmishing in both cases as less armor left the riders more vulnerable but able to deploy more rapidly. It should be noted btw the terms are often used to describe the military role, not necessarily equipment. The Mongols frequently employed heavy cavalry that charged, but depending on time and theater they may wear heavy or light armor. Sub-Saharan Africa did deploy heavy cavalry, but their equipment was lighter than that of other regions by necessity of the climate. Late Medieval European light cavalry could still be equipped like heavy cavalry by some other regions' standards, but their role was distinct from knights in that they were used for skirmishing or scouting.
@@perrytran9504When is the stirrup introduced to Europe, some time in the early medieval period I think? Before then, couching a lance for a direct charge would be likely to instantly dismount the rider, hence the need for ride-by attacks like you describe for ancient cavalry.
Years ago, i read a historical account of a cavalry vs cavalry battle in early modern period. What happened was, the two units were both in very tight formations so when there was only a few feet between the two sides, their horses stopped to avoid smashing in to each other and then engage in a melee.
@@digitaljanus Yep. That's why cavalry charges were rare, though they weren't completely nonexistent. Alexander's army apparently used them, but this was an anomaly.
Just the thought of wearing a full suit of any kind of armour gives me a new appreciation for the people who wore this stuff, sometimes slept in it, and fought to the death in it. Medieval people were _bloody tough._
While extreme situations occasionally happened, most of the time on campaign armour would be baggage, not something you're wearing at the moment. If you go diving in the middle of a sea, you don't put on your scuba gear imediately after leaving the harbour. And Matt probably also isn't going to wake up, brush his teeth, put on his armour and then just go about the rest of his day at Tewkesbury.
@@rashindus However, to follow your metaphor, you might want to be wearing your scuba gear if you have reason to expect the sea could attempt to drown you in the night. Bear in mind, depending on the time and place, you could either be in waters that are guaranteed to be shallow enough that you can stand, or you could be aboard a boat that may instantly sink far too deep for you to hold your breath.
You prompt a recollection of a Pennsic decades ago, where I wore a scale armor while wandering from party to party, inebriated, in the rain. The scales overlapped like shingles and shed the rain nicely, as well as rattling every time I took a step. I also (drunkenly) pole vaulted a bonfire several times with my spear enjoying the fireproof nature of the metal scales. Scale armor, for the win, in the rain!
I find my scale armor breaths pretty well too, although the duck cloth backing seems to absorb more water than I can possibly have sweated out... I'd swear all told I gain weight over the course of a day.
It would be interesting to see the results if during your event you have a way of taking temperature measurements under the armor of yourself and others in different armors.
If I had to pick armor for rain, I'd probably go with the breastplate. Easier to dry off and not have to worry as much about corrosion, except around the leather straps. Chainmail would be the next choice, but yours is attached to cloth. Corrosion would be a concern. Brigandine would be a mess. Edit: My thinking exactly. Drying the chainmail would be easier without the cloth, just hang it ove the campfire or hearth for a few minutes and let the water boil off. Just hope you don't need it for a few minutes.
If i were to make a fantasy/medieval rpg campaign. I would put more focus on survival and invironmental issues, like seasons, weather, illness, food, resourcess and equipment/gear damadge/repair. Might sound boring, but nature can be a formidable and unforgiving adversary.
I used to wear a brigandine in SCA combat in the deep south of the USA. Even if it's not raining, it gets heavy when it's soaked with sweat. Another factor to consider is that flexible armor tends to cling to the body. Plate armor holds its own shape and usually leaves more room for air to circulate between armor and flesh.
The point with plate is exactly that it radiates heat. Keep in mind that it radiates exactly as much heat inwards as outwards. So temperature of the garment is key. If temperature of the item is under body temperature => better conductivity=more cooling. However if item heats up over body temperature, better conductivity = MORE heat towards the body. This is why in temperatures over 35C and/or sun actually fabrics will be better, even multilayered ones as you'll only be handling your own heat and insulated from the outside. In temperatures over 35C your body will TAKE IN heat from the air, not radiate. Obviously sweating and being in the wind helps. Again - plate wont allow that, while fabrics will.
I've had a suspicion for a while that some of the bronze and brass armours that show up among the Malays and the Moros have less to do with resource availability and more to do with both seafaring cultures wanting protection that didn't rust.
A rubber tire and an electric motor to spin the tire will clean mail. Just place the mail into the tire. Works for cleaning corrosion off small parts too 😊
I wore a breastplate for a 3 day larp in sweden once. was sunny all weekend and while the outside of the cuirass was scorching, the inside stayed just toasty. my 2 cents
This is why a lot of battels back in the day and even in modern times, didn't happen if the weather was particularly bad. At least not if either side had a choice in the matter.
I wore my brigandine at Tewkesbury in the rain. The outer layer soaked up a lot of water but the intermediate layer of leather stopped it fron getting to the plates witch where wet from condensation. So i had to dry it out in the sun for 2 hours. The weekend before i wore my plate harnas in the rain, and a wipe down with a cloth and it was all good in 10 minutes. I made some harnas parts for a friend of mine and i covered each part hot in wax. That doesn't rust as long as you don't scratch thru all the wax to the bare metal
Hope you can stay cool this weekend and everyone is safe in Tewkesbury! I'm sure there will be lots of pictures. I'd love to see everyone in full kit wandering around the Aldi getting a snack!
Have you considered using wool grease on your brigandine? This should repell most of the water if you get stuck in the rain. I´ve used it on most of my wool clothing and it works just fine. Although the application on an armor could be quite tricky. Just dilute 2 tablespoons of grease and 1 tablespoon of soap (dishwashing soap for convenience) in hot water, let it cool to about 40°c. The mixture gets kinda milky-white. Soak the fabric with it.... maybe you have to spray it on or rub it in with a sponge when using it on the brigandine. After drying the fabric is water repellent and i think the plates and rivets should rust a lot less when covered in grease.
It's good to see your brig coming out a bit more! It's a lovely piece. My brig has got muddy after I got put on my arse whilst sparring. I left it to dry and brushed it out, no issue. Not had it get rained on though, not sure how I'd cope with that.
Oh...god...it's averaging 104 right now in Texas and the thought of wearing Plate reminds me of boiling Lobsters alive. No merciful rain for us Cowboys. If it were me right now I would favor chain because it is so well perforated and provides good air conditioning when you are sweating like a stock pig in the blistering Texas heat, but ...name of the gods, it all rusts so bad, all of it.. very few people here wore plate when I was doing this stuff back in the 90s mostly because most of us couldn't afford it. Leather, boiled Leather, studded Leather, chain, brigandine, splint Mail, Field mail, ring or Scale Mail is what everyone here wore with most of it being some variation of Leather. chain easily weighs around 80 pounds for good coverage and a Brigandine Surcoat by itself easily weighs as much. Not many people wearing cloth based Brigandine or padded armor, it was usually sown leather. Really, with good 6:1 chain and Brigandine over it I would trust that vs. firearms of many kinds especially with a good Shield to go with it, but for big heavy stuff like Pole Arms, almost any two handed weapon regardless of type and especially stuff like maces, War Hammers and Axes of various kinds I would want the plate hot weather and all...that's what the Shield is for though. come home carrying it or be carried on it. ;-) Personally I think I would really prefer the Brigandine and Mail shirt any day, especially if it was one of those Teutonic/germanic styles that practically terminate in a Kilt at the bottom and with the Brigandine on top of that you get good air conditioning from the sides, pits, groin, etc. Really, if a guy can't defend himself well with that and a Medium round shield or something He's got issues, but yeah, the rain is going to totally put a real damper on your parade like that and god, that Brigandine is going to soak it up like a giant sponge. If it was well oiled leather with the plates sown in place it shouldn't absorb anything. wax and oil that leather and it should be almost water proof in the rain, and then that with the Mail shirt underneath would definitely give you the air conditioning you seek. Just drink a lot before you hit the field and you won't notice.
8:10 Before seeing your answer, I would choose plate. Rain, mud, etc. will weigh down the cloth of a brigandine, and that extra weight specifically on the chest and shoulders equals extra pain as the battle progresses. A shaped breastplate affixed firmly can be wiped off quickly, and will not noticeably deform from mud or other muck that accretes on it. It can be immersed in water later with little damage (provided it is dried sufficiently), and scraped free of rust with the edge of your own maille back at camp.
When I lived in the southwest folks didn't tin their brigs, some did hit them with rustoleum, but even in the desert the sweat of folks managed to rust the steel.
Your brigadine could be treated like making 'tin pants' where you scrub the surface with wax and carefully heat the garment with a low set heat gun (low fire back in the day). Colonialists treated their canvas the same way making 'oil cloth' (some used a linseed oil and wax mixture painted on and let dry). It's kind of amazing to have all the scrubbed on wax and watch it soak into the garment with the heat gun as if by magic. I've done it with a rain hat and a coat that was miserable to get rained on while at football games, now it stays dry. Just for camping or hunting/fishing I'd say you should try making tin pants -- you can hike across the dew wet moors and stay dry. If you launder tin pants you'll need to reapply as significant water proofing gets knocked out, but it's easy to 'repair'.
I'm posting this when you said to stop, so donno if you cover this later on... Plate will be more comfortable to wear, because the cloth on the brig will absorb water and get heavier and very soggy while the water will roll off the breastplate. Also, after you are done, the brig will take a while to dry, holding water against the plates for longer making rust more likely, while you can quickly dry the plate with a towel after you remove it. Of course if any rust DOES form on the plate, it will look like trash after you clean it up since it will ruin the finish while the brig can just be a ball of rust but still *look* good because it's hidden by the cloth. So what do you value more, comfort and ease of maintenance or appearances?
Im so excited you made this! Im attempting to write a novel( i have no idea what im doing) in an arid/ desert region and was trying to justify using plate or Brigandine. Think ill still stick with Brigandine due to the ease of removing/opening up to let heat escape.
I have always wondered how German and men from Great Britian handled the Levant in summer wearing armor. It would be like wearing a person from the upper Mid West wearing a down coat in Phoenix during August.
My first thought when you were talking about rust and wet fabric was your servent would take care of that. Was glad you referred to that at the end. I also thought plate would be cooler than the fabric. I mean, why would a knight have servants if it wasn't to do the scut work? Of course, the best deal is to be such an important person that you stood on top of the hill and had servants to hold umbrellas or pitch a tent for you to stand in and eat your lunch and drink wine while the lower classes beat the hell out of each other.
The classical middle eastern way of dealing with the heat is to wear dark/radiative undergarment, then put a sheer/lightweight bright white cloak on the outside (of the armor). The white will reflect short-wave hi energy photons away from you, but is more transparent to long-wave infrared heat radiating from within. If you used a sheer silk or rayon (or whatever water resistant fabric) it will also act as a semi-raincoat...
A little off topic, but if you don't mind Matt I'd really like to request a topic for you to cover. From everything I could find, mail and gambesons filled largely the same roles and uses. Could you talk some about advantages and disadvantages between the two, and why some people might choose one over the other historically?
This is interesting as I watch this it is 110 degrees (43.33 centigrade) in Phoenix Arizona. I need to research the armor used by the Spanish Army in Sonora and Arizona.
The gaps between the plates on the brigandine would actually serve to insulate more, because of the canvas and wool covering. Essentially small pockets of air between the plates would remain stagnant and be warmed by body heat and by the plates forming an envelop of warmer air around the wearer.
I am sure that as a country made rich by sheep farming Medieval English people were accustomed to water proofing woollen garments including brigandine with applications of lanolin.
@8:00, I'm watching with a friend and we both are guessing that plate would be better in the rain because of its solid construction letting water slide off, and that brigandine would hold water in its fabric layer!
I previously considered myself somewhat knowledgeable of arms and armor, but I guess I was wrong about that! Never heard of brigandine armor until today. Thanks for educating me!
The use of tin plating on brigandines is very common in SURVIVING examples may just be an example of survivership bias,tinned steel is far less prone to rust away.
The question about rain is quite tricky. In my experience, it is more comfortable to be in brigandine when it rains a bit, because at some point the wool protects the plates from rust. But when it rains heavily, or if you have to stand in the rain multiple hours, the clothes of the brigandine will absorbe water, and with the heat coming from your body, it will make your metal plate rust quickly for sure. With a harness, rain will just stream off your body. You just have to take time to grease your armor before the battle and dry correctly after. So in that case it seems more practical.
I do hope to see a follow up video after the event to learn how it may have gone, what expectations were met, what were not. I'll toss in my 2 cents with points possibly supporting, possibly not at various points in this presentation. First 3:50 mark... I wore Vietnam war era body armor regularly in 1982. I found that this armor was quite warm even if I could open the front of it (summer) and also contributed to body warmth nicely enough during the winter. I equate this to brigadine ... that said I am unable to make a comparison to plate except in general terms. Metal helmets and armored vehicles in winter were quite cold, their only contribution would be to stop the immediate effects of the wind. The metal seemed to suck the heat right out of you otherwise. 8:10 What would I wear in the rain? hmmm. Firstly I have to resign myself to getting wet. Be it from the rain soaking through, or my sweat, or both. Likely both because reasons ... Good question though. To make a good choice I'd have to try both options, going with 40 year-old memory I'll say the plate. Humidity is the issue as much as the heat, the lighter undergarments should allow me to cool off better. ( I first thought for brigadine, but changed my mind.) 13:26 Glad that Matt had the same conclusion as I did regarding plate v brigadine v mail in the rain. Weight is a big issue as well as being able to dry off relatively quickly. Those may be little comfort quibbles to some, but they add up.
I think this is an interesting topic for not only brigandine vs cuirasse but also comparing Lamellar, mail, loric segmneta, 17th cetnury wool military coats, etc.
Nice video! I have a subject for a future video…assuming you havn’t already covered the topic…TOLEDO STEEL. Please tell us about it…why it’s famous, good, strong, etc. I would love to hear what you have to say about it…and how it intersects with the subject of ore, and metallurgy. 😁
I chose a brigandine for my suit because I liked the flexibility at the hot spots under my arms and at my waist, but I thought it was common sense that it would be warmer to wear 😐 And I just don't fight in the rain, it's bad enough getting my arming doublet wet 😄 I do wonder though Matt why we don't see more people wear the jupon over their cuirass? I don't think you've ever mentioned it either and you don't wear one with your suit, why not? 🙂
About plate vs brigandine in heavy heat : for my experience in reenactment for one time I had to fight under 34°C, the brigandine is more ventilated because, as you said, I am not fully enclosed in my armor. One of my mate fighting in plate armor prefer to wear a chaperon over his armor when there is heat. He said it absorbe heat in place of the breastplate, while being an aereted clothe. For having tried that multiple times, he says it is the perfect combo not to feel the insolation from body enclosure in armor.
Hi Matt, great video and I totally agree with your conclusions...However, I'd like to see you and maybe Tod test these scenarios. To make them objective, you could have thermometers inside the harness somewhere. I'd also like to see the rain theory tested as I'm curious as to how much water the brigandine would soak up and how that extra weight would affect the combatant.
With the brigandine's overlapping plates to trap air it would act more like insulation than the plate. Insulation is basically preventing the free flow of air. One of the ways to do that is to trap air in a space that won't allow it to move and then it won't effectively transfer temperature with the air on either side of it. That is basically how fiberglass insulation works. So I guessed the plate would be cooler for that reason as well as brig looks like it is more form fitting than plate so the plate would allow more air to escape, or allow for more free flow of air.
Hey Matt there's a blackening dip for traps that can be used on maille that not only looks awesome but will help with rust no heat or crazy chemicals just dip and hang it up to dry
My experience with heat and heavy rain is that what your wear on top doesn't matter as much as your padded layer - the thicker your gambeson has to be, the worse off you will be. If you think about it, you're basically wearing a thick coat that soaks in sweat and rain like a sponge. So, the thicker that padding is, the worse the armor is to wear, which means the absolute worst is standalone gambeson because it has to be very thick - when I was washing mine and got it soaked in water, it took on a good 20-30 kg. Chain mail is second, then brigandine and plate - that one only requires a relatively thin (but still a little padded) arming doublet.
As far as comfort in the rain is concerned, both the brigandine and the plate would be absolutely miserable. Although both are effectively impermeable to the falling rain and would shed the water off of it, the rain would still be absorbed by the gaps at the shoulders. The doublet will eventually become soaked, and because the cuirass is basically inpermeable, the moisture will not evaporate and lead to extreme chafing untill the full set is removed and left to dry. Imagine wearing a plastic poncho but getting splashed from below by someone splashing in the puddle. You are _not_ getting dry until getting out of the rain and stripping.
I have had what I believe to be a silly idea and completely not historical in the slightest! Take steel plate harnesses and paint it with car paint. Primer, colour coating, lacquer, polish, ceramic coat. You’d get the choice of all sorts of cool colours then. It’ll protect from the elements until someone cuts or chips it. Then you could do a contrasting paint colour of where it’s been hit to not only cover the scratch, but also make some cool sort of art work?
I am at 8:07 were you asked us what we think is better in the rain, plate or brigandine. My guess would be that plate is the better choice because it is easier to whipe of.
A downside to using beeswax to protect your armour: when it gets hot, the wax will soften and may start attracting bees. A HEMA acquaintance once described someone fleeing the field in rather a hurry when his wax-hardened leather lamellar drew the wrong kind of attention during a summer encampment.
I'd go with plate cuirass in rain, sheds water better, bitb less humid inside. Brigandine fabric cover soaks up water, gaps in lames let water through, heavier when wet, longer to dry out. Plate you take off, wipe dry. No experience wearing armour in rain myself tho. Mind you, if you're a knight you should be able to hire/impress a peasant to follow you around, close protection style, with an umbrella!
I know people who wear light-colored brigandines to fight in 80 dF and high humidity. Can confirm: brigs are much hotter to wear than plate. Sure you can crack them open when you're done fighting but until then you're just steam-cooking inside. Undoing the brig buckles often also requires that you take your hand protection off, which is inconvenient.
Okay, I paused it to answer before you gave your answer and I think plate would be better in the rain. I think the brigandine would get considerably heavier once soaked in rain...I'm probably wrong as hell. LOL!
my logic for rain is also the plate, just from the simple fact that. if you image its really pouring down. so your cloth all gets soaked. this gets heavy. now a brigandine is another layer that can soak water and get even heavier.
I think the "outer layer" is not negotiable, but we see lots of mail worn directly on tunics or shirts with a simple breast plate or brigantine in the Mediterranean so I'd say ditch the gambeson instead and wear what's more comfortable on top of the mail with an open helmet. Speaking of the Mediterranean, I remember the naval infantry of the Italian Thalassocracies wearing side-closing (possibly waxed) brigandines with quick release-hooks and pins so they could get out of them asap in case they went over board.
Before hearing the answer about rain: Brigandine sounds terrible. The fabric will soak up the rain horribly. Plate... I don't really see an issue with it, but it lacks a big advantage mail has: you can easily wear a raincoat over mail. And the best way to deal with the rain is to not be hit by it. On second thought, plate leather straps may not enjoy the rain too much, so that's one more for the mail.
You could go get some Meguiars Hybrid Ceramic Wax and spray it on the plates. It would also probably help on the leather. It works great and really lasts. at least on automotive paint. Even if you had to reapply it after taking battle damage its a matter of a few seconds with a spray bottle and a rag.
My rain armor guess- paused video at 8:10 : As someone who doesn't have a lot of experience with either armour OR rain on account of living in a desert, I would think to pick plate armor because you would probably get reasonable protection from your arming coat, a cloak and of some kind, and the solid barrier from the plate armor (where you have it) But my big motivation for picking plate is the rust- a rusty brigandine seems like some kind of nightmare scenario after the fact, and mail armor seems only a little better. Plate armor is mostly flat surfaces so any rust would likely be trivial to clean, and the rust on any mail would probably be easy enough to clean through tumbling on that smaller scale. Edit: omg that's kind of cool that's almost exactly the same conclusion you had. nice
Matt, I've been used to wear chainmail (butted, zinc-plated steel) on daily basis DON'T ASK WHY xD I can assure you that getting into supermarkets with air conditioned made me feel sick by how cold the armour cooled down - I was used to wear it only over a thick shirt, so the steel chilled and passed the chill right to my skin and into my bones... and I used only a shirt because I live in a lagoon, and outside the heat is INTENSE, and under the sun my mail warmed up and made me feel the hot steel through the fabric. A thick, decent gambeson would be needed to insulate the wearer from the mail. BUT the gambeson itself is damn, damn hot (expecially those made of synthetic fabric like the one I own). And the heat generated to move around about 10kgs of mail, other 3 between my nasal helm and alluminium coif, and my clothes. Metal is just... VERY receptive to external enviroment and I still don't know how to handle it properly. About rain? Plate. The brigandine has leather layer, good luck getting it dry. Lagoon is so damp that I'm surprised I haven't grown gills yet, and that's why I tr to zinc-plate everything, or go for allumiunium (would love titanium, but hey: price). I wear armour for fashion and training, and my sweat is highly corrosive, so... yeah. Wear something easy to clean, or rust-resistant.
Olive oil is awesome for protecting armor from rust. A thin layer, once dried, works very much like a zinc layer on galvanized steel. One other thing- can we get some more discussion on the purpose and function of a brigandine v plate? Is there any similarity to lamellar? You made a video on such a topic years ago, but I'd like to see further discussion and evidence.
I think the plate will be better in the rain than the brigandine. The backing of the brig will retain water, increasing the chances of rust. I think a brig would also be hard to clean the rust off of I know from personal experience chain mail is actually pretty easy to de-rust: you just toss it in a bucket of sand, shake it up to scour it, then oil once you're done
My choice would be plate because a mixture of body warmth, fabric layers and bolts holding everything together would be wonderful for developing rust unless it was dryed very fast. A plate of metal can be dealt with using modern rust preventives.
I would assume the brigadine would be more porous to wind and rain so better in the heat, worse in the rain. For modern day zincing the plates of a brigadine, a galvanizer could just dump the bucket of plates into a very heavy duty spinnig basket system, rather than individually dipping. The company I work for sends plates and bolts and up 20 lb welded mounting brackets that get this treatment. They dunk the basket and spin off the excess zinc at like 500 rpm. Videos of the process are available on RUclips.
Mail, if you want to stay (relatively) cool. Minimal padding. Plate with some padding otherwise. Brigandine... worst of both worlds. Agree with you on the rain wear.
Plate is essentially an inefficient radiator. It has a high thermal conductivity, which means that if it is in contact with your gambeson, it will tend to stay about the same temperature as the gambeson. It's heat capacity is also pretty low. Brig is essentially an inefficient jacket. It will tend to insulate and it won't move heat around very much. And it has a fairly high heat capacity. Plate will get warm quickly, but not be much worse after 2 hours than it was after 15 minutes. Brig will be fine for a short time, then gradually become more unbearable. In the cold? Well plate is a radiator and brig is a jacket. FWIW, when younger, I fought quite a bit in Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona. IME, anything above about 32° C / 90° F is pretty warm for fighting in. At that temp, I didn't find plate especially problematic. The biggest tips are to push fluids and get out of the sun when you can. If you can find somebody pretty to fan you while you sit in the shade, that's a big bonus. As to water? Falling on your head? From the sky? We don't really get that in the Rocky Mountain west. I'd recommend having your servants do your fighting if it's raining. 8-) And yes, brig is horrible in the rain. Not only does it rust, but you have to completely disassemble the garment to clean off the rust. With plate, a brass brush followed by a polishing wheel can fix most cosmetic rust pretty easily.
Maybe another factor to consider: Since the brigandine opens in the front couldn’t you open it up to let out heat in between fights? Similar to a HEMA jacket? You’d have to undo any waist belts you have over it but the rest you could leave on yeah? Doesn’t help in the rain of course.
I love the brigandine but yes the steel armor is just better against rain, no cloth so it wont absorb the water. Heck the water could make the brigandine weigh more depends how soaked it gets.
Following the instructions at 8:10: I personally would pick the brigandine because there wouldn't be as much noise of "rain on metal", but that's my particular issues.
As a Scadian, I liked my plate better than brigantine, but it was stainless steel. I always wanted to make a set of scale armor of hardened leather though.
![Gucci Mane & Sexyy Red - You Don't Love Me [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/j7IBqyFKT4c/mqdefault.jpg)
I like how the method of removing rust from maille is basically just a proto-washing machine
Ever worn modern bodyarmor? You can Stick your hands betwen the armor and your body... And fabric absorbs water mutch better than steel plates...
Mail is just the single most practical armor in all of history from ease of use, cost, cleaning, protection etc. only real issue is the long time to make, but back then what else would an armor maker do all day hey.
@@Csarcitime to make makes it pretty costly
Mail maybe was best 200 years ago, but now it's much easier and therefore cheaper for me to buy steel sheet, steel scissors and cut out chunks to create coat of plates
@@favkisnexerade you’d have to get a pretty heavy gauge of sheet steel to replicate a coat of plates you may have to use something like a hacksaw or angle grinder if you want stop a good thrust. I’m not sure if a pair of snips would……CUT IT!…..I’m sorry
@@mythguard6865 Yeah if snips will cut it something else probably will too
Originally posted on Quora by:
Sage
"Roman legionaries used wax to waterproof their clothing and equipment during inclement weather. They would heat the wax and then apply it to their clothing and equipment, such as their tents, to make them water-resistant. They also used oil and tallow to waterproof their leather gear. Additionally, they would use a type of oiled cloth called a "mantum" as a rain cape."
Also: A birrus or birrus brittanicus was a rainproof, hooded woollen cloak (or simply a hood alone), characteristically worn in Britain and Gaul at the time of the Roman Empire and into the Middle Ages.[
See, this is what I was thinking in regards to the brigandine.
@@zippydastrange Tinder, perhaps? :D
Oilskin and waxed coats are still common today for people who work outside like farmers and linemen
@@EricThomson-t4v right? Exactly
If there's one thing the army taught me, it's that after a week or two outside in constant rain, "waterproof" isn't.
Here's a tip:
Let your metal heat up in the sun, *and then* apply your protective oil of choice. Bring it in to cool, and then wipe up the excess. The microscopic surface imperfections in the metal will trap oil. Those imperfections expand and contract with the metal as it is heated and cooled. Oiling while heated means that the oil will work its way deeper and more thoroughly into those surface imperfections, and letting cool with the excess still on it will cause it to retain as much as possible within the surface of the metal. I do this with new blades, tools, and firearms components. It's basically like seasoning an iron skillet, same principle.
Literally seasoning your breastplate like a wok, I love it.
Iron skillet is porous. Steel is not.
@@dylanhunt5655forged steel is still porous, and steel worked with other methods is divoted or scratched, it's just not visible to the naked eye and only sometimes detectable by touch. But it becomes immediately visible if you allow condensation to form on the surface and allow it to start forming surface rust.
@@dylanhunt5655
It's most noticeable on my original Leatherman PST, it's steel. It was smooth on the handles before, but _buttery_ smooth after.
Not really like seasoning pans because there you're polymerizing the oil, that's possibly another thing that was made historically.
If you only have to deal with heat, an advantage of the brigandine is that you can easily open it up when combat has stopped and get some ventilation
Brigandines were significantly more popular in Iberia where conflict with the Moors was a more regular threat than conflict with other European states. And while brigandines were worn in many places outside Europe, plate was much more limited in popularity even when it was available to purchase.
In Saharan and sub-Saharan Africa, armours that can be taken on and off quickly are favoured for exactly that reason. When heatstroke is coming on you don't want to have to wait for someone to help you out of your armour.
@@KartarNighthawk It's often the same with modern body armor like what I wore in Iraq. It's easy to take on and off or even just open up when you can
eh, you'll have to also remove suspension systems etc, then you have jack under it, idk
@@favkisnexeradehe important part to ventilate is your core. You can wear a thin gambeson or arming coat underneath but you could also not and instead have just removable sleeves that attach to the brigantine for arm protection and wear a plain undershirt.
Since the brig has both structure and some give, I'd say it's not nearly as vital to wear secondary protection against shocks like you do with chainmail and by knitting some padding around the armpits and collar you don't have to worry so much about chafing either. At the very least, it will be more comfortable than enduring the heat.
I wear my Alien t-shirt where ever I can, but few people recognise it anymore. :)
When it describes the clothing of the Knight, the prologue to Geoffrey Chaucer's Canterbury Tales says "Of fustian he wered a gipoun, All bismottered with his habergeoun". I.e. the knight is wearing a fustian jupon that has been stained by his mail hauberk. Presumably this was a result of rust transferring onto the fabric, although maybe because it has been treated with something to weatherproof it. The line is clearly intended to show that the knight is a true soldier who has recently been on campaign. This is in contrast to his son, the Squire, "A lover and a lusty bacheler' who is portrayed as inexperienced, fancily-dressed and more concerned with enjoying himself than with fighting.
At least my mail is oiled to prevent it from rusting and therefore everything it touches will get black and oily to.
Knyght errant has a video about mail maintenance. If I remember correctly they waterproofed and/or cleanned it with some sort of oil
Good old pig fat or lard will keep your maille rust free, it is rather messy though
I immediately went to plate for all the reasons you mentioned but mainly the weight increase of the brigantine when wet. Armor is heavy enough as it is, and doubling that weight will tire you very quickly. A tired warrior can easily become a dead warrior.
After my first time wearing full mail & plate harness while doing wind sprints, jumping jacks and similar exercises to test the overall fit as well as for the experience of doing so, I wholeheartedly agree!
wouldn't it depend on the fabric, though? Properly treated leather is more water-proof than clothe.
Also, you have to wear a gambison regardless of armor anyway, and is this one is insanely heavy while soaked.
@@benjaminthibieroz4155 You wouldn't have a "gambeson" regardless of armor. In both types of armor here and especially considering the time period, you would have a thin arming doublet underneath them that is only a few layers of linen. Sure, it would probably gain weight when soaked, but it's a much lighter garment than the 30ish layer gambeson you were probably picturing.
I would also wear the plate. That brigandine is gonna get HEAVY once it soaks up water.
Hi Matt, can you please make a video on how cavalry vs cavalry engagements work? For example, in GoT's Battle of the Bastards, the horses directly smash into each other at full speed, which just seems suicidal for everyone involved. Or is it a difference between light cavalry vs heavy cavalry?
Great question, i've always thought the same, when watching to army's clash like that.
Super long story short, cavalry's usage changed over time and varied by region. But charging was a mainstay of Medieval warfare including outside the European context, which is kinda crazy considering barding (horse armor) was usually very limited including for heavy cavalry. In Antiquity though charges were far rarer, with heavy cavalry tending to slow down as they closed to melee, using the horse as a platform more than anything. Light cavalry generally stuck to skirmishing in both cases as less armor left the riders more vulnerable but able to deploy more rapidly.
It should be noted btw the terms are often used to describe the military role, not necessarily equipment. The Mongols frequently employed heavy cavalry that charged, but depending on time and theater they may wear heavy or light armor. Sub-Saharan Africa did deploy heavy cavalry, but their equipment was lighter than that of other regions by necessity of the climate. Late Medieval European light cavalry could still be equipped like heavy cavalry by some other regions' standards, but their role was distinct from knights in that they were used for skirmishing or scouting.
@@perrytran9504When is the stirrup introduced to Europe, some time in the early medieval period I think? Before then, couching a lance for a direct charge would be likely to instantly dismount the rider, hence the need for ride-by attacks like you describe for ancient cavalry.
Years ago, i read a historical account of a cavalry vs cavalry battle in early modern period. What happened was, the two units were both in very tight formations so when there was only a few feet between the two sides, their horses stopped to avoid smashing in to each other and then engage in a melee.
@@digitaljanus Yep. That's why cavalry charges were rare, though they weren't completely nonexistent. Alexander's army apparently used them, but this was an anomaly.
Just the thought of wearing a full suit of any kind of armour gives me a new appreciation for the people who wore this stuff, sometimes slept in it, and fought to the death in it. Medieval people were _bloody tough._
While extreme situations occasionally happened, most of the time on campaign armour would be baggage, not something you're wearing at the moment. If you go diving in the middle of a sea, you don't put on your scuba gear imediately after leaving the harbour. And Matt probably also isn't going to wake up, brush his teeth, put on his armour and then just go about the rest of his day at Tewkesbury.
@@rashindus However, to follow your metaphor, you might want to be wearing your scuba gear if you have reason to expect the sea could attempt to drown you in the night.
Bear in mind, depending on the time and place, you could either be in waters that are guaranteed to be shallow enough that you can stand, or you could be aboard a boat that may instantly sink far too deep for you to hold your breath.
Just had my first experience wearing full armor and then exercising yesterday…I’m a bit sore today, but then again, I’m pushing 50.
You prompt a recollection of a Pennsic decades ago, where I wore a scale armor while wandering from party to party, inebriated, in the rain. The scales overlapped like shingles and shed the rain nicely, as well as rattling every time I took a step. I also (drunkenly) pole vaulted a bonfire several times with my spear enjoying the fireproof nature of the metal scales. Scale armor, for the win, in the rain!
I find my scale armor breaths pretty well too, although the duck cloth backing seems to absorb more water than I can possibly have sweated out... I'd swear all told I gain weight over the course of a day.
Pretty sure this is the true ‘on campaign’ experience.
It would be interesting to see the results if during your event you have a way of taking temperature measurements under the armor of yourself and others in different armors.
If I had to pick armor for rain, I'd probably go with the breastplate. Easier to dry off and not have to worry as much about corrosion, except around the leather straps. Chainmail would be the next choice, but yours is attached to cloth. Corrosion would be a concern. Brigandine would be a mess.
Edit: My thinking exactly.
Drying the chainmail would be easier without the cloth, just hang it ove the campfire or hearth for a few minutes and let the water boil off. Just hope you don't need it for a few minutes.
If i were to make a fantasy/medieval rpg campaign. I would put more focus on survival and invironmental issues, like seasons, weather, illness, food, resourcess and equipment/gear damadge/repair.
Might sound boring, but nature can be a formidable and unforgiving adversary.
“Fundamentally mail is one of the coolest […] types of armor you can wear” - Matt Easton
CONTEXT
lol
@@rileymitchell3510 lol
I used to wear a brigandine in SCA combat in the deep south of the USA. Even if it's not raining, it gets heavy when it's soaked with sweat.
Another factor to consider is that flexible armor tends to cling to the body. Plate armor holds its own shape and usually leaves more room for air to circulate between armor and flesh.
The point with plate is exactly that it radiates heat. Keep in mind that it radiates exactly as much heat inwards as outwards. So temperature of the garment is key. If temperature of the item is under body temperature => better conductivity=more cooling. However if item heats up over body temperature, better conductivity = MORE heat towards the body. This is why in temperatures over 35C and/or sun actually fabrics will be better, even multilayered ones as you'll only be handling your own heat and insulated from the outside. In temperatures over 35C your body will TAKE IN heat from the air, not radiate. Obviously sweating and being in the wind helps. Again - plate wont allow that, while fabrics will.
I've had a suspicion for a while that some of the bronze and brass armours that show up among the Malays and the Moros have less to do with resource availability and more to do with both seafaring cultures wanting protection that didn't rust.
A rubber tire and an electric motor to spin the tire will clean mail. Just place the mail into the tire. Works for cleaning corrosion off small parts too 😊
That was my exact theory on brigandine in the rain and I'm so happy Matt is on the same side.
8:02 i'm going to say the steel plate better in the rain, won't change its weight and it should be easier to clean up after
As soon as you asked about rain, my mind immediately went to, 'disassembling and cleaning, de-rusting, and reassembling that thing would be horrid'.
I wore a breastplate for a 3 day larp in sweden once. was sunny all weekend and while the outside of the cuirass was scorching, the inside stayed just toasty. my 2 cents
Was it polished? Shiny metal reflects a lot of heat.
@@dmgroberts5471 actually no, it was spray-painted black, come to think of it
@@Sutorenja That is not what one would expect! Very interesting!
Come on, there is no heat in nordic Sweden.
@@dylanhunt5655 there definitely is... and more so now than a decade or two ago.
This is why a lot of battels back in the day and even in modern times, didn't happen if the weather was particularly bad. At least not if either side had a choice in the matter.
I wore my brigandine at Tewkesbury in the rain.
The outer layer soaked up a lot of water but the intermediate layer of leather stopped it fron getting to the plates witch where wet from condensation. So i had to dry it out in the sun for 2 hours.
The weekend before i wore my plate harnas in the rain, and a wipe down with a cloth and it was all good in 10 minutes.
I made some harnas parts for a friend of mine and i covered each part hot in wax. That doesn't rust as long as you don't scratch thru all the wax to the bare metal
Hope you can stay cool this weekend and everyone is safe in Tewkesbury! I'm sure there will be lots of pictures. I'd love to see everyone in full kit wandering around the Aldi getting a snack!
Matt, I absolutely LOVE your t shirts…first Soundgarden, now a nod to the Alien franchise!
Outstanding, sir!
Interesting! This makes quite a bit of sense. And if I may say, that brigandine of yours is gorgeous!
Have you considered using wool grease on your brigandine? This should repell most of the water if you get stuck in the rain. I´ve used it on most of my wool clothing and it works just fine. Although the application on an armor could be quite tricky.
Just dilute 2 tablespoons of grease and 1 tablespoon of soap (dishwashing soap for convenience) in hot water, let it cool to about 40°c. The mixture gets kinda milky-white. Soak the fabric with it.... maybe you have to spray it on or rub it in with a sponge when using it on the brigandine. After drying the fabric is water repellent and i think the plates and rivets should rust a lot less when covered in grease.
Thank you for the information ⚔️
It's good to see your brig coming out a bit more! It's a lovely piece. My brig has got muddy after I got put on my arse whilst sparring. I left it to dry and brushed it out, no issue. Not had it get rained on though, not sure how I'd cope with that.
Oh...god...it's averaging 104 right now in Texas and the thought of wearing Plate reminds me of boiling Lobsters alive. No merciful rain for us Cowboys. If it were me right now I would favor chain because it is so well perforated and provides good air conditioning when you are sweating like a stock pig in the blistering Texas heat, but ...name of the gods, it all rusts so bad, all of it.. very few people here wore plate when I was doing this stuff back in the 90s mostly because most of us couldn't afford it. Leather, boiled Leather, studded Leather, chain, brigandine, splint Mail, Field mail, ring or Scale Mail is what everyone here wore with most of it being some variation of Leather.
chain easily weighs around 80 pounds for good coverage and a Brigandine Surcoat by itself easily weighs as much. Not many people wearing cloth based Brigandine or padded armor, it was usually sown leather. Really, with good 6:1 chain and Brigandine over it I would trust that vs. firearms of many kinds especially with a good Shield to go with it, but for big heavy stuff like Pole Arms, almost any two handed weapon regardless of type and especially stuff like maces, War Hammers and Axes of various kinds I would want the plate hot weather and all...that's what the Shield is for though. come home carrying it or be carried on it. ;-)
Personally I think I would really prefer the Brigandine and Mail shirt any day, especially if it was one of those Teutonic/germanic styles that practically terminate in a Kilt at the bottom and with the Brigandine on top of that you get good air conditioning from the sides, pits, groin, etc. Really, if a guy can't defend himself well with that and a Medium round shield or something He's got issues, but yeah, the rain is going to totally put a real damper on your parade like that and god, that Brigandine is going to soak it up like a giant sponge. If it was well oiled leather with the plates sown in place it shouldn't absorb anything. wax and oil that leather and it should be almost water proof in the rain, and then that with the Mail shirt underneath would definitely give you the air conditioning you seek. Just drink a lot before you hit the field and you won't notice.
8:10
Before seeing your answer, I would choose plate. Rain, mud, etc. will weigh down the cloth of a brigandine, and that extra weight specifically on the chest and shoulders equals extra pain as the battle progresses. A shaped breastplate affixed firmly can be wiped off quickly, and will not noticeably deform from mud or other muck that accretes on it. It can be immersed in water later with little damage (provided it is dried sufficiently), and scraped free of rust with the edge of your own maille back at camp.
I would have gone for plate for the exact reason you mentioned 😊 and very fine you looked too.
Awesome Shirt Matt!!
When I lived in the southwest folks didn't tin their brigs, some did hit them with rustoleum, but even in the desert the sweat of folks managed to rust the steel.
Your brigadine could be treated like making 'tin pants' where you scrub the surface with wax and carefully heat the garment with a low set heat gun (low fire back in the day). Colonialists treated their canvas the same way making 'oil cloth' (some used a linseed oil and wax mixture painted on and let dry). It's kind of amazing to have all the scrubbed on wax and watch it soak into the garment with the heat gun as if by magic. I've done it with a rain hat and a coat that was miserable to get rained on while at football games, now it stays dry. Just for camping or hunting/fishing I'd say you should try making tin pants -- you can hike across the dew wet moors and stay dry. If you launder tin pants you'll need to reapply as significant water proofing gets knocked out, but it's easy to 'repair'.
I would wear the plate.
The brigandine would absorb the rain.
Great channel!
LOVE the t-shirt!
Where can I get one?😉
I'm posting this when you said to stop, so donno if you cover this later on... Plate will be more comfortable to wear, because the cloth on the brig will absorb water and get heavier and very soggy while the water will roll off the breastplate. Also, after you are done, the brig will take a while to dry, holding water against the plates for longer making rust more likely, while you can quickly dry the plate with a towel after you remove it. Of course if any rust DOES form on the plate, it will look like trash after you clean it up since it will ruin the finish while the brig can just be a ball of rust but still *look* good because it's hidden by the cloth. So what do you value more, comfort and ease of maintenance or appearances?
Im so excited you made this! Im attempting to write a novel( i have no idea what im doing) in an arid/ desert region and was trying to justify using plate or Brigandine.
Think ill still stick with Brigandine due to the ease of removing/opening up to let heat escape.
I have always wondered how German and men from Great Britian handled the Levant in summer wearing armor. It would be like wearing a person from the upper Mid West wearing a down coat in Phoenix during August.
Mail with a fabric over it to breathe. Think classic crusader.
My first thought when you were talking about rust and wet fabric was your servent would take care of that. Was glad you referred to that at the end. I also thought plate would be cooler than the fabric. I mean, why would a knight have servants if it wasn't to do the scut work? Of course, the best deal is to be such an important person that you stood on top of the hill and had servants to hold umbrellas or pitch a tent for you to stand in and eat your lunch and drink wine while the lower classes beat the hell out of each other.
The classical middle eastern way of dealing with the heat is to wear dark/radiative undergarment, then put a sheer/lightweight bright white cloak on the outside (of the armor). The white will reflect short-wave hi energy photons away from you, but is more transparent to long-wave infrared heat radiating from within. If you used a sheer silk or rayon (or whatever water resistant fabric) it will also act as a semi-raincoat...
A little off topic, but if you don't mind Matt I'd really like to request a topic for you to cover. From everything I could find, mail and gambesons filled largely the same roles and uses. Could you talk some about advantages and disadvantages between the two, and why some people might choose one over the other historically?
This is interesting as I watch this it is 110 degrees (43.33 centigrade) in Phoenix Arizona. I need to research the armor used by the Spanish Army in Sonora and Arizona.
The gaps between the plates on the brigandine would actually serve to insulate more, because of the canvas and wool covering. Essentially small pockets of air between the plates would remain stagnant and be warmed by body heat and by the plates forming an envelop of warmer air around the wearer.
I am sure that as a country made rich by sheep farming Medieval English people were accustomed to water proofing woollen garments including brigandine with applications of lanolin.
@8:00, I'm watching with a friend and we both are guessing that plate would be better in the rain because of its solid construction letting water slide off, and that brigandine would hold water in its fabric layer!
I previously considered myself somewhat knowledgeable of arms and armor, but I guess I was wrong about that! Never heard of brigandine armor until today. Thanks for educating me!
The use of tin plating on brigandines is very common in SURVIVING examples may just be an example of survivership bias,tinned steel is far less prone to rust away.
The question about rain is quite tricky. In my experience, it is more comfortable to be in brigandine when it rains a bit, because at some point the wool protects the plates from rust. But when it rains heavily, or if you have to stand in the rain multiple hours, the clothes of the brigandine will absorbe water, and with the heat coming from your body, it will make your metal plate rust quickly for sure.
With a harness, rain will just stream off your body. You just have to take time to grease your armor before the battle and dry correctly after. So in that case it seems more practical.
I do hope to see a follow up video after the event to learn how it may have gone, what expectations were met, what were not.
I'll toss in my 2 cents with points possibly supporting, possibly not at various points in this presentation.
First 3:50 mark... I wore Vietnam war era body armor regularly in 1982. I found that this armor was quite warm even if I could open the front of it (summer) and also contributed to body warmth nicely enough during the winter. I equate this to brigadine ... that said I am unable to make a comparison to plate except in general terms. Metal helmets and armored vehicles in winter were quite cold, their only contribution would be to stop the immediate effects of the wind. The metal seemed to suck the heat right out of you otherwise.
8:10 What would I wear in the rain? hmmm. Firstly I have to resign myself to getting wet. Be it from the rain soaking through, or my sweat, or both. Likely both because reasons ... Good question though. To make a good choice I'd have to try both options, going with 40 year-old memory I'll say the plate. Humidity is the issue as much as the heat, the lighter undergarments should allow me to cool off better. ( I first thought for brigadine, but changed my mind.)
13:26 Glad that Matt had the same conclusion as I did regarding plate v brigadine v mail in the rain. Weight is a big issue as well as being able to dry off relatively quickly. Those may be little comfort quibbles to some, but they add up.
Killer shirt, dude.
I think this is an interesting topic for not only brigandine vs cuirasse but also comparing Lamellar, mail, loric segmneta, 17th cetnury wool military coats, etc.
Nice video! I have a subject for a future video…assuming you havn’t already covered the topic…TOLEDO STEEL.
Please tell us about it…why it’s famous, good, strong, etc. I would love to hear what you have to say about it…and how it intersects with the subject of ore, and metallurgy. 😁
Plate all the way in the rain.
Sidenote, might be interesting to coat the brigandine plates with TiN instead of tin. Would look cool too.
I chose a brigandine for my suit because I liked the flexibility at the hot spots under my arms and at my waist, but I thought it was common sense that it would be warmer to wear 😐 And I just don't fight in the rain, it's bad enough getting my arming doublet wet 😄
I do wonder though Matt why we don't see more people wear the jupon over their cuirass? I don't think you've ever mentioned it either and you don't wear one with your suit, why not? 🙂
That makes sense. I guessed Brigadine, but your reasons seem sound.
I would concentrate on areas where right might occure.
@8:08 Plate is my call. It won't absorb water like the brig because there isn't a built in fabric element
About plate vs brigandine in heavy heat : for my experience in reenactment for one time I had to fight under 34°C, the brigandine is more ventilated because, as you said, I am not fully enclosed in my armor.
One of my mate fighting in plate armor prefer to wear a chaperon over his armor when there is heat. He said it absorbe heat in place of the breastplate, while being an aereted clothe. For having tried that multiple times, he says it is the perfect combo not to feel the insolation from body enclosure in armor.
Hi Matt, great video and I totally agree with your conclusions...However, I'd like to see you and maybe Tod test these scenarios. To make them objective, you could have thermometers inside the harness somewhere. I'd also like to see the rain theory tested as I'm curious as to how much water the brigandine would soak up and how that extra weight would affect the combatant.
With the brigandine's overlapping plates to trap air it would act more like insulation than the plate. Insulation is basically preventing the free flow of air. One of the ways to do that is to trap air in a space that won't allow it to move and then it won't effectively transfer temperature with the air on either side of it. That is basically how fiberglass insulation works. So I guessed the plate would be cooler for that reason as well as brig looks like it is more form fitting than plate so the plate would allow more air to escape, or allow for more free flow of air.
Hey Matt there's a blackening dip for traps that can be used on maille that not only looks awesome but will help with rust no heat or crazy chemicals just dip and hang it up to dry
I've cleaned rust off tools with olive oil while camping and I suspect that olive oil and maille in a barrel would work great.
My experience with heat and heavy rain is that what your wear on top doesn't matter as much as your padded layer - the thicker your gambeson has to be, the worse off you will be. If you think about it, you're basically wearing a thick coat that soaks in sweat and rain like a sponge.
So, the thicker that padding is, the worse the armor is to wear, which means the absolute worst is standalone gambeson because it has to be very thick - when I was washing mine and got it soaked in water, it took on a good 20-30 kg. Chain mail is second, then brigandine and plate - that one only requires a relatively thin (but still a little padded) arming doublet.
The plate for me in the rain, I think. I'd be worried about the fabric soaking and retaining water.
Sounds like we need to get Tod of Tod’s Workshop a FLIR camera.
As far as comfort in the rain is concerned, both the brigandine and the plate would be absolutely miserable. Although both are effectively impermeable to the falling rain and would shed the water off of it, the rain would still be absorbed by the gaps at the shoulders. The doublet will eventually become soaked, and because the cuirass is basically inpermeable, the moisture will not evaporate and lead to extreme chafing untill the full set is removed and left to dry. Imagine wearing a plastic poncho but getting splashed from below by someone splashing in the puddle. You are _not_ getting dry until getting out of the rain and stripping.
Can you not wear a waterproof cloak over the top?
@@QuentinStephens Marching, sure absolutely, and that's what people did. Engaging in combat, the cloak will tangle you up
@@TheWhiteDragon3 Right.
I have had what I believe to be a silly idea and completely not historical in the slightest! Take steel plate harnesses and paint it with car paint. Primer, colour coating, lacquer, polish, ceramic coat. You’d get the choice of all sorts of cool colours then.
It’ll protect from the elements until someone cuts or chips it. Then you could do a contrasting paint colour of where it’s been hit to not only cover the scratch, but also make some cool sort of art work?
I am at 8:07 were you asked us what we think is better in the rain, plate or brigandine. My guess would be that plate is the better choice because it is easier to whipe of.
A downside to using beeswax to protect your armour: when it gets hot, the wax will soften and may start attracting bees.
A HEMA acquaintance once described someone fleeing the field in rather a hurry when his wax-hardened leather lamellar drew the wrong kind of attention during a summer encampment.
I'd go with plate cuirass in rain, sheds water better, bitb less humid inside. Brigandine fabric cover soaks up water, gaps in lames let water through, heavier when wet, longer to dry out. Plate you take off, wipe dry. No experience wearing armour in rain myself tho.
Mind you, if you're a knight you should be able to hire/impress a peasant to follow you around, close protection style, with an umbrella!
I know people who wear light-colored brigandines to fight in 80 dF and high humidity. Can confirm: brigs are much hotter to wear than plate. Sure you can crack them open when you're done fighting but until then you're just steam-cooking inside. Undoing the brig buckles often also requires that you take your hand protection off, which is inconvenient.
Okay, I paused it to answer before you gave your answer and I think plate would be better in the rain. I think the brigandine would get considerably heavier once soaked in rain...I'm probably wrong as hell. LOL!
my logic for rain is also the plate, just from the simple fact that. if you image its really pouring down. so your cloth all gets soaked. this gets heavy. now a brigandine is another layer that can soak water and get even heavier.
I think the "outer layer" is not negotiable, but we see lots of mail worn directly on tunics or shirts with a simple breast plate or brigantine in the Mediterranean so I'd say ditch the gambeson instead and wear what's more comfortable on top of the mail with an open helmet.
Speaking of the Mediterranean, I remember the naval infantry of the Italian Thalassocracies wearing side-closing (possibly waxed) brigandines with quick release-hooks and pins so they could get out of them asap in case they went over board.
Before hearing the answer about rain: Brigandine sounds terrible. The fabric will soak up the rain horribly. Plate... I don't really see an issue with it, but it lacks a big advantage mail has: you can easily wear a raincoat over mail. And the best way to deal with the rain is to not be hit by it.
On second thought, plate leather straps may not enjoy the rain too much, so that's one more for the mail.
Plate mail I think. Function after having help on
What about drying the brigandine near a fire ?
You could go get some Meguiars Hybrid Ceramic Wax and spray it on the plates. It would also probably help on the leather.
It works great and really lasts. at least on automotive paint. Even if you had to reapply it after taking battle damage its a matter of a few seconds with a spray bottle and a rag.
My rain armor guess- paused video at 8:10 :
As someone who doesn't have a lot of experience with either armour OR rain on account of living in a desert, I would think to pick plate armor because you would probably get reasonable protection from your arming coat, a cloak and of some kind, and the solid barrier from the plate armor (where you have it)
But my big motivation for picking plate is the rust- a rusty brigandine seems like some kind of nightmare scenario after the fact, and mail armor seems only a little better. Plate armor is mostly flat surfaces so any rust would likely be trivial to clean, and the rust on any mail would probably be easy enough to clean through tumbling on that smaller scale.
Edit: omg that's kind of cool that's almost exactly the same conclusion you had. nice
Matt, I've been used to wear chainmail (butted, zinc-plated steel) on daily basis DON'T ASK WHY xD
I can assure you that getting into supermarkets with air conditioned made me feel sick by how cold the armour cooled down - I was used to wear it only over a thick shirt, so the steel chilled and passed the chill right to my skin and into my bones... and I used only a shirt because I live in a lagoon, and outside the heat is INTENSE, and under the sun my mail warmed up and made me feel the hot steel through the fabric.
A thick, decent gambeson would be needed to insulate the wearer from the mail. BUT the gambeson itself is damn, damn hot (expecially those made of synthetic fabric like the one I own).
And the heat generated to move around about 10kgs of mail, other 3 between my nasal helm and alluminium coif, and my clothes.
Metal is just... VERY receptive to external enviroment and I still don't know how to handle it properly.
About rain? Plate. The brigandine has leather layer, good luck getting it dry.
Lagoon is so damp that I'm surprised I haven't grown gills yet, and that's why I tr to zinc-plate everything, or go for allumiunium (would love titanium, but hey: price). I wear armour for fashion and training, and my sweat is highly corrosive, so... yeah. Wear something easy to clean, or rust-resistant.
Medieval Armour cleaners Limpchainkit 'keep rollin, rollin, rollin.'
I will see myself out.
Olive oil is awesome for protecting armor from rust. A thin layer, once dried, works very much like a zinc layer on galvanized steel.
One other thing- can we get some more discussion on the purpose and function of a brigandine v plate? Is there any similarity to lamellar? You made a video on such a topic years ago, but I'd like to see further discussion and evidence.
I think the plate will be better in the rain than the brigandine. The backing of the brig will retain water, increasing the chances of rust. I think a brig would also be hard to clean the rust off of
I know from personal experience chain mail is actually pretty easy to de-rust: you just toss it in a bucket of sand, shake it up to scour it, then oil once you're done
Hoping for mild weather in Tewkesbury this Saturday, last year was a little too hot!
I seem to be receiving conflicting reports - it's either going to be roasting, or a flood.... possibly both.
I thought for sure at the outset of this video that the best armor, based on his past videos, was going to be a SuperDry t-shirt, :P
My choice would be plate because a mixture of body warmth, fabric layers and bolts holding everything together would be wonderful for developing rust unless it was dryed very fast. A plate of metal can be dealt with using modern rust preventives.
there was a trend where the warmer the climate of the area the less common metallic armour was made
Mail, scale, and lamellar armours were common in the Middle East and Levant.
As instructed: I'd wear the plate, doesn't absorb water like the brigandine will and thus get heavier and a bit like wetsuit :D
I would assume the brigadine would be more porous to wind and rain so better in the heat, worse in the rain.
For modern day zincing the plates of a brigadine, a galvanizer could just dump the bucket of plates into a very heavy duty spinnig basket system, rather than individually dipping. The company I work for sends plates and bolts and up 20 lb welded mounting brackets that get this treatment. They dunk the basket and spin off the excess zinc at like 500 rpm. Videos of the process are available on RUclips.
Mail, if you want to stay (relatively) cool. Minimal padding. Plate with some padding otherwise. Brigandine... worst of both worlds. Agree with you on the rain wear.
Plate is essentially an inefficient radiator. It has a high thermal conductivity, which means that if it is in contact with your gambeson, it will tend to stay about the same temperature as the gambeson. It's heat capacity is also pretty low.
Brig is essentially an inefficient jacket. It will tend to insulate and it won't move heat around very much. And it has a fairly high heat capacity.
Plate will get warm quickly, but not be much worse after 2 hours than it was after 15 minutes. Brig will be fine for a short time, then gradually become more unbearable. In the cold? Well plate is a radiator and brig is a jacket.
FWIW, when younger, I fought quite a bit in Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona. IME, anything above about 32° C / 90° F is pretty warm for fighting in. At that temp, I didn't find plate especially problematic. The biggest tips are to push fluids and get out of the sun when you can. If you can find somebody pretty to fan you while you sit in the shade, that's a big bonus.
As to water? Falling on your head? From the sky? We don't really get that in the Rocky Mountain west. I'd recommend having your servants do your fighting if it's raining. 8-)
And yes, brig is horrible in the rain. Not only does it rust, but you have to completely disassemble the garment to clean off the rust. With plate, a brass brush followed by a polishing wheel can fix most cosmetic rust pretty easily.
Answering before I hear Matt's answer. I would wear Plate in the rain. Water will run off the armor. Rather than soak the fabric of a Brigandine.
Maybe another factor to consider: Since the brigandine opens in the front couldn’t you open it up to let out heat in between fights? Similar to a HEMA jacket? You’d have to undo any waist belts you have over it but the rest you could leave on yeah? Doesn’t help in the rain of course.
I love the brigandine but yes the steel armor is just better against rain, no cloth so it wont absorb the water. Heck the water could make the brigandine weigh more depends how soaked it gets.
Regarding rain, it's worth noting that cloaks can be waxed too.
Great Nostromo shirt
Following the instructions at 8:10: I personally would pick the brigandine because there wouldn't be as much noise of "rain on metal", but that's my particular issues.
As a Scadian, I liked my plate better than brigantine, but it was stainless steel. I always wanted to make a set of scale armor of hardened leather though.