tubularbill The one vote did not of course cause the Tory govt to last 18 years. What caused that, was the same hard left as did the Winter of Discontent, which had built up strength in Labour in the years from 60s radicalism + was now riding on the members' disiillusion with Callaghan's monetarism. After the loss of office it was able to take over the party in 1980 and move its policies hard left. With rejection of all trade union reform, and particularly because it included the CND nuclear disarmament policy in the face of Cold War Russia, the public wouldn't vote for it, so Labour became unable to win elections no matter what the Tories did, until it had shaken off, not only the hard left control itself, which had intentionally woven itself deeply into the constituency structures, but also the public's lasting memory of it.
Neil Robinson 50 years of Tory rule...you are having a laugh, Neil?? Hug a hoodie, pro divorce, pro gay marriage, pro abortion...the left have got the market covered and that's just in the Conservative party!! Theresa the appeaser makes even George Galloway blush with how left wing she is!!
Very historic moment indeed. Regardless of which political party is in power, it must still take a swallowing of pride to make a speech straight after being defeated in the House and potentially staring down defeat at an election. Love the caricatures drawing before the announcement of the vote.
Callaghan should have called the election in October 1978, he thought another hung parliament would result so held off..... a difficult winter of strikes led to the government downfall......
He probably would have won a 35-40 seat majority if he had have called the election in early October 1978 when it was held in Blackpool. The election should have been called on Thursday 5th October 1978, parliament dissolved and an election held probably on Thursday 2nd November 1978. He would have won I am sure. Stupid decision.
Agree, it was not really until the November the pay policy fell apart, had he have called the election in the September He would have won, he was more popular than thatcher who was seen as shrill and wooden..... He claimed he saw private polls at time that showed another hung parliament and he did not want to risk it...... Similar thing happened to Gordon Brown in 2007.......
I was but fifteen at the time, but I do recall wondering if martial law might be declared..!! That may seem ridiculous in retrospect, but the feeling on the street was very dystopic...!! (If that's a genuine word!)
@@johnking5174 no way, various retrospective programmes featuring the likes of Steel, Tebbit and even Callaghans close advisors have all suggested a September/October 78 Election would only have meant Labour were the largest party with no overall majority and Callaghan was unwilling to go on with a minority adminstration under those terms. he gambled on getting through the winter with the economy picking up hopefully obtaining a majority in the autumn of 79. Alas it was not to be
Bit like brown. The polls had him at a least minority government and he blew it off. We were then left of year of austerity that didn't work which all could have been avoided
Notice how rarely then politicians spoke over each other & listened & then reply to each other (take note BBC2 Politics Live et al) & journalists gave a question & then listened to the reply unlike now when they interupt the retort with another question (take note Chan 4 News). And tho this was a even more difficult time the politicians & journalists kept a calmness that helped us cope unlike now with BBC NEWS 24 et al creating & whipping up a sense of rabid panic & division.
Now that's a close margin, one vote! I wonder if Callaghan felt betrayed by the very trades union that he supported, bringing about the Winter of Discontent and thence his downfall
If the one Labour MP who was too ill to attend the house had been there the government would have survived. Although this would have given a tied vote at 311 each the Speaker holds the casting vote and by convention when needed (which is VERY rare) the speaker votes to maintain the status quo as there is no majority in the house for change. Hence here he would have voted 'no' as that would maintain the sitting government and so no change.
@@madabbafan That was Sir Alfred Broughton. He was willing to come to Commons to vote (they would have let him vote from ambulance parked in Speaker's Court), but Callaghan was concerned of the reaction had he died en route and told him to stay. Broughton died a couple days later.
@@garyrasberryjr.552 true, although when it became clear during the debate that it would be, at best, a tie Callaghan changed his mind and asked if they could get him down but by then it was too late to make the trip to be in time to vote.
Seems like a different era. Proper reporting by the BBC, civilised interviews by Robert McKenzie with Lords Carrington and Diamond. Proper discussion between Pereguine Worsthorne and John Cole. No little temper tantrums a la Owen Jones.
Three TV channels causes this. We were not saturated with TV, unlike now with hundreds of channels and of course everyone has their own TV station, with RUclips and on demand, all has changed people's attitudes.
Why are you singling out Owen Jones? The news in the UK is in its current dire straights because of right wing client journalists like Andrew Neil, Laura Keunssberg, Fiona Bruce, Justin Webb, Chris Mason, Nick Robinson and Amol Rajan.
This was a full decade before there was full televised coverage of the House of Commons. Sound coverage of the Commons chamber only started in April 1978. Until 1989 when the Commons was fully televised, the public only saw inside the chamber once per year for the State Opening of Parliament.
one word man probably not, the DUP are pretty anti-Labour, the Tories would have to seriously upset Northern Ireland or Labour would have to ditch Corbyn. A Labour minority government was always more likely to fall because the Liberals swing both ways and Labour MPs are generally less disciplined and concerned about holding government. If you want a more relevant example, you'll have to go back to 1996/7 when John Major lost his majority and had to rely on the Unionists. Even then, the Unionists wouldn't back Tony Blair. If you ask me, the next election will be in 2020, once Brexit is done with and the Tories replace There's May with David Davis
I agree. This is a great time for Labour, if they stay out of government. The momentum is with them from the shock result, the Tories are in a bind and must abandon most of their controversial policies, and Labour won't have to administer Brexit and please nobody.
one word man I don't know about that I'm hearing rumours from people I know that students were intimidated by momentum activists in their own unis to vote Labour, so therefore the hung parliament result may have been fixed. The Tory campaign was terrible but they did get 43% of the vote as predicted. The problem was Labour were consistently predicted to be around 30-35% but then got 41% and a lot of the extra seats they got may have been as a result of double voting in seats like Canterbury and Lincoln, full of students but not natural Labour voters. Also they promised to scrap tuition fees and now they've u-turned on that, expect lots of students to turn on Labour within a year or two. Plus the fact that the Lib Dems now have a proper leader in Vince Cable and not a homophobe in Tim Farron...and if David Davis gets in, then he can attract much of the working class vote, because unlike Corbyn or Theresa May, he didn't go to university, was born in a council house and served in the SAS and so may better appeal to the working class.
This is not a thread. I have no interest in a debate and will not respond after this comment. I am just correcting some mistakes you have made in my opinion. 1) Momentum activists do not have the numbers or influence to intimidate students into voting Labour. I know this from personal experience. Momentum, especially the student wing, are often pathetically useless campaigners and, if they tried to intimidate me I'd just vote the other way. It's a secret ballot. 2) I doubt that double voting really happened in anything more than a handful of cases. It probably had no effect whatsoever. There's no evidence for it anyway. I'm sure the authorities will look into it. 3) Tories are getting it wrong by focusing on student debt. Hardly anyone under 30 takes the Tories seriously, but Corbyn is pretty popular with them. Labour lost the election, and the Tories are the ones who have left young people with their mountains of debt anyway. In any case, the Labour manifesto said nothing about past debt and so it wasn't a u-turn. Corbyn never promised to eliminate all debt, only fees for current students. The Tories are hoping that young people will get confused and think Corbyn u-turned on ending tuition fees, which he hasn't. It's just standard political spin. It won't work.
I wonder if the producer Roger Bolton is the same Roger Bolton who does Feedback on Radio 4? I love these old politics shows so different from the shouting and ad homiknem we get today. And that cheesy music at the end. Priceless.
Yes, it is. He became editor of Panorama later in 1979, and then of Nationwide; he was the target of Denis Thatcher's anger after Margaret Thatcher was forcefully challenged by a viewer during the 1983 election. More recently has done radio including presenting 'Sunday' and 'Feedback' on Radio 4.
I was too young but from what I read at that time(1978) the economy was doing OK and was growing. And usually when the economy is doing well people usually are happy enough with the Government.Hence why I reckon he would have got a majority albeit not a big majority,maybe say 20.
I understand Callaghan thought he could win in 1978 but not with a workable majority, he banked on better prospects in the Spring and we all know how that turned out. Labour has only just won in 1974 and the prospect of more of the same wasn't palatable to him
This is all very strange. As I have commented elsewhere, I must at least occasionally have watched Tonight at the time it was broadcast, when I was between the ages of 15 and 19. In fact I clearly remember the night that this vote occurred so I must have been watching. However, I have just no recollection of the Tonight programme itself! When Newsnight came along the following year, I remember it clearly even the fact that it was not always on at the same time each night. It seems that the memories of Tonight have been ‘written over’!
@@wonjubhoy Well considering Gerry Fitt was a founder/member of the Social, Democratic and Labour Party in Northern Ireland, it is not surprising he was sympathetic to Labour, as Labour was in the title of his own party.
I noticed here that the speaker didn't say "Unlock!" after announcing the result. Was it standard procedure for that to be said back then or was it just not heard on this broadcast? Also noted how reference is made to Callaghan and Thatcher getting up and going to the dispatch box. In recent commons votes May and Corbyn seem to just stand up where they are and the speaker introduces them with "Point Of Order". Was the procedure of getting up and going to the dispatch box done away with at some point? Also does anyone know if there is a reason why the commons voting procedure was not televised? Were there restrictions on this back then?
Television broadcasts of parliamentary proceedings were not introduced until 1989, prior to this only radio broadcasts were heard. I'm guessing the reason why big votes like this were not televised was probably due to their not being the appropriate infrastructure in place and the costs of setting it up would not be worth for something that would be broadcast very late at night and not well watched.
@@callumclark4021 there was real reluctance to move towards parliament being televised (it was difficult enough to get it in radio, and many MPs were against that too). The radio broadcasts were originally a limited experiment. A lot of MPs thought being televised would fundamentally alter the character of the chamber and many worried that some MPs would become attention seekers in order to get on TV.
It may be that the Speaker's call of 'unlock' may have been spoken over by the broadcaster but also the numbers give 621 votes out of the 635 seats there were at the time. Factor in the Speaker and his deputies who don't vote (4) the vacant seats (6) those known to be too ill to attend (1) and those known to be in the house but had declared they would abstain (2). It only left one MP was was nearly always absent. With this taken into account the speaker may well have decided it was unessessery to call it.
What REALLY cost them is not well known but it was that the two chief whips met and the Labour Cheif Whip formally asked for 'a pair' so that a Conservative MP would sit out on the vote to cover Alfred Broughton's abence (this was and still is a long standing agreement for most votes) and after Bernard Weatherill, then the Conservative chief whip, said he didn't have one as pairing was never meant for confidence votes, he then offered to sit out himself even though that would mean his political carear would be over to honour the agreement the two always had. The Labour cheif whip told Weatherill he could not put him in that position so withdrew his pairing request so Weatherill voted. Had the offer been accepted it would have been a tie and on the Speaker's casting vote they would have survived as in a tie the Speaker always votes to maintain the status quo in this case it would have been to vote 'no' as there was no majority in the house to change the governemnt. Weatherill went onto be the next Speaker of the house and is the last one to ware the wig. He always maintained the wig was very useful as it alowed one to pretend not to have heared something.
It would have happened sooner or later anyway, but the Labour Government was effectively defeated in the confidence vote by two Northern Ireland MPs: Gerry Fitt, a socialist by nature, and leader of a party (the SDLP) which was seen as a 'sister party' to Labour, but who had fallen-out with Labour because there was a proposal to increase Westminster seats in NI from 12 to 17 - leading to more Unionists. So, Fitt withdrew his support for Labour. The other Northern Ireland MP who was key was Frank Maguire, the Independent (Irish) Nationalist MP for Fermanagh & South Tyrone. He eventually wouldn't support the Callaghan Government, either, hence this loss of confidence vote. Fermanagh & South Tyrone would later figure again in Westmister politics. Soon after republican terrorist prisoners had begun a hunger strike for 'political status', which the Government refused, Frank Maguire died suddenly. So, a by-election was called for Fermanagh South-Tyrone. Sinn Fein, the IRA's political wing, put-up Bobby Sands, a hunger striker, as a candidate, resulting in (even by Northern Ireland standards) an extremely polarised campaign. Sands won the by-election, over his Unionist opponent, and was elected MP for the constituency. Clearly, he couldn't (being in jail) & wouldn't have taken his seat anyway due to republican abstentionism. Sands died a few weeks' later.
@@jimsmith2282 the SNP had supported the government as they wanted a Scottish Parliament. A labour mp put through a 40% rule resulting in the failure of the devolution vote. That was why they turned against labour.
@@cityandsuburb Give them a break. Some of us are just born Politics junkies. One day it will be a recognised condition until then we need understanding not contempt::)
According to BBC Genome, Tonight was supposed to air at 10.30pm after Sportsnight which should have started at 9.35pm. Did the BBC reschedules its late evening BBC1 to air Tonight as closest to 10.00pm as possible?
It's fairly clear the programme started at 10:10pm, as we know what time the division result came. So I wonder if Sportsnight was just cut short (it was usually live).
21:35: Sportsnight Introduced by Harry Carpenter The Greyhound TV Trophy from Hall Green , Birmingham Live coverage of tonight's three heats of this prestige long-distance event, first run 21 years ago, and now worth a record £1,750 to the winning owner. Two grey-hounds from each heat over 815m will qualify for the final. Commentator HARRY CARPENTER The World Welterweight Championship Wilfredo Benitez (Puerto Rico) (The Champion) v Harold Weston (USA) Sunday's fight in Puerto Rico was of particular interest to British fight-fans as our European champion Dave ' Boy' Green seems sure to fight the winner for the world title later in the year. The Grand National A look ahead to Saturday's running of the world's greatest steeplechase. Greyhound tv presentation JOHN SHREWSBURY Producer JOHN PHILIPS Editor JONATHAN MARTIN Contributors Introduced By: Harry Carpenter Unknown: Hall Green Commentator: Harry Carpenter Unknown: Wilfredo Benitez Unknown: Harold Weston Unknown: John Shrewsbury Producer: John Philips Editor: Jonathan Martin 22.30: Tonight Including News Headlines Producers JOHN HOLME , BARBARA MAXWELL Editor ROGER BOLTON Contributors Producers: John Holme Producers: Barbara Maxwell Editor: Roger Bolton I guess then that the Boxing highlights and Grand National preview were cut off
Had Jim Callaghan's government managed to survive this vote, is it likely that they would have held out until Autumn 1979 and if so is it likely they could have turned their fortunes round at all?
Not really, the damaged was already done, it would have been simply postponing the inevitable. Also remember the opposition would have fought hard in getting another vote of no confidence in the Callaghan government. Labour didn't have a majority, and so were under constant threat, it simply couldn't survive to autumn 79, it would have fallen sooner rather than later.
Listening to Pym and Foot is like 2 bald men fighting over a comb. Pardoe at least recognises how moribund the system had become and seeks to change it for the better. Britain had become the 'sick man of Europe' and both Labor and the Conservatives (up until the accession of Thatcher) had both practised (more or less) the same grab bag of Socialist policies that led to Britain having to be bailed out by the IMF. From 45 onwards, Britain's standard of living was one of managed decline, culminating in The Winter of disconten
If Callaghan had called an election in Autumn 1978 winning with a small majority or being the largest party in a Hung Parliament and then the Winter Of Discontent had happened is it possible his reputation would have still taken a nosedive resulting in Labour being forced out of power by 1983 if not earlier?
Something I have thought of, if Callaghan HAD called an election in the autumn of 1978 is it possible that the Winter Of Discontent would have been avoided or is it possible that something like it would have happened further on down the line?
The by election the following day sounded like a waste of time, seeing that the winner would barely (if at all) be able to take their place in the Commons prior to the dissolution and constituents would need to vote again in the General Election anyway.
I recently read that once in power Thatcher didn't implement the decision of the referendum that brought about this No Confidence vote. Did she surffer much criticism for this or did her parliamentary majority mean there was little the opposition could do?
That's a difficult question. The referendum was on whether to implement the Scotland Act 1978 to create a devolved government, but part of the Act said the Government must propose repeal of the Act if the number voting 'Yes' was less than 40% of the total number of voters. In the referendum the majority voted Yes, but it didn't reach 40%. So Thatcher argued the Act should be repealed, and in the general election promised further discussions on devolution. It was only after the election that she made it clear there would be no devolution. Of course there was nothing the opposition could do - but devolution became a big campaign issue in Scotland. The 1997 Labour government enacted a much broader devolution scheme than the ill-fated one from 1978.
Thanks for explaining. Given it was clear that there needed to be a vote in excess of 40% for a devolved government and total number of votes in favour was less than that why were the opposition able to put down this 'No Confidence' motion in the first place?
@@martindavis6115 One of the unwritten conventions in Parliament is that the main Opposition party has a right to put down a motion of no confidence at any time, and the government will find its own time for the debate.
@@DBIVUK Fair enough. I seem to recall Corbyn attempted to in late 2018 and the speaker refused to allow parliamentary time to debate it. I know Corbyn subsequently did a month later though (and lost).
Did it fall? Well, key market stats at close of trading: 27 March: FT All Share 266.61, Ordinary Index 539.3. £1 = $2.0530, 8.80Fr, DM 3.83 28 March: FT All Share 268.64, Ordinary Index 538.3. £1 = $2.0500, 8.78Fr, DM 3.81 29 March: FT All Share 271.71, Ordinary Index 540.8. £1 = $2.0550, 8.82Fr, DM 3.83 30 March: FT All Share 266.28, Ordinary Index 530.8. £1 = $2.0650, 8.87Fr, DM 3.85
@@callumclark4021 exchange controls were also in place. You couldn't take or move more than £50 out of the country without permission. The Thatcher government got rid of those controls.
Michael Foot after this became the leader of the opposition in 1980 lead the labour party though it most difficult period and it heavy election lose in 1983
I don't like any movement to the right, but regardless of the direction, U.K. election methods are vastly better than those of my nation, the U.S. Parliament candidates spend a few weeks campaigning, then years dealing with national policy. Our Congressional candidates spent years campaigning and a few weeks barely touching real policies.
@@JamesRichards-mj9kw Okay, I see what you mean, yes sound broadcast only started in that year 1978 and it would be another 11 years before proper TV broadcasting of the Commons started.
As much as the public's mood was swinging towards Thatcher, Callaghan's loss was really due to unfortunate circumstances. Had Labour MP Tom swayne of Derby north not been unfortunately killed by a road collision, Callaghan would have succeeded in winning the vote. Due to Derby north having no sitting MP at that time, the vote from that area was not cast and Callaghan lost by the one vote. Technically it was due to the tragic death of Tom that saw Callaghan lose. We would have lived in a different nation had Jim won the vote
This is some awesome history. 1 vote. This single vote set up the next 18 years of Tory Majority.
50 years of tory rule xxxxx
snp mps 11 committed treason that vote cost 9 off them there seats and 18 yrs off tory rule in scotland snp zombie nation followers say its a myth
tubularbill there'd have been an election fairly soon anyway. But this meant that Callaghan's hand was forced - a humiliation for him.
tubularbill The one vote did not of course cause the Tory govt to last 18 years. What caused that, was the same hard left as did the Winter of Discontent, which had built up strength in Labour in the years from 60s radicalism + was now riding on the members' disiillusion with Callaghan's monetarism. After the loss of office it was able to take over the party in 1980 and move its policies hard left. With rejection of all trade union reform, and particularly because it included the CND nuclear disarmament policy in the face of Cold War Russia, the public wouldn't vote for it, so Labour became unable to win elections no matter what the Tories did, until it had shaken off, not only the hard left control itself, which had intentionally woven itself deeply into the constituency structures, but also the public's lasting memory of it.
Neil Robinson 50 years of Tory rule...you are having a laugh, Neil?? Hug a hoodie, pro divorce, pro gay marriage, pro abortion...the left have got the market covered and that's just in the Conservative party!! Theresa the appeaser makes even George Galloway blush with how left wing she is!!
Very historic moment indeed. Regardless of which political party is in power, it must still take a swallowing of pride to make a speech straight after being defeated in the House and potentially staring down defeat at an election. Love the caricatures drawing before the announcement of the vote.
11:45 - Lord Carington, was one of the Tory politicians I respected and liked. He died this year on 9th July 2018 at the grand old age of 99.
after t he was k a s p
Unionist View He resigned after the Falklands invasion though. A man of principle, now politicians like Grayling can get away with all sorts
Interesting John Pardoe’s so pleased with himself about the vote, when he lost his seat a few weeks later.
Ha, I was going to say that. In fact the careers of all three were effectively over by 1983.
Callaghan should have called the election in October 1978, he thought another hung parliament would result so held off..... a difficult winter of strikes led to the government downfall......
He probably would have won a 35-40 seat majority if he had have called the election in early October 1978 when it was held in Blackpool. The election should have been called on Thursday 5th October 1978, parliament dissolved and an election held probably on Thursday 2nd November 1978. He would have won I am sure. Stupid decision.
Agree, it was not really until the November the pay policy fell apart, had he have called the election in the September He would have won, he was more popular than thatcher who was seen as shrill and wooden..... He claimed he saw private polls at time that showed another hung parliament and he did not want to risk it...... Similar thing happened to Gordon Brown in 2007.......
I was but fifteen at the time, but I do recall wondering if martial law might be declared..!!
That may seem ridiculous in retrospect, but the feeling on the street was very dystopic...!!
(If that's a genuine word!)
@@johnking5174 no way, various retrospective programmes featuring the likes of Steel, Tebbit and even Callaghans close advisors have all suggested a September/October 78 Election would only have meant Labour were the largest party with no overall majority and Callaghan was unwilling to go on with a minority adminstration under those terms. he gambled on getting through the winter with the economy picking up hopefully obtaining a majority in the autumn of 79. Alas it was not to be
Bit like brown. The polls had him at a least minority government and he blew it off. We were then left of year of austerity that didn't work which all could have been avoided
A good upload. SPOILERS - it was held on 10th May 1979
Notice how rarely then politicians spoke over each other & listened & then reply to each other (take note BBC2 Politics Live et al) & journalists gave a question & then listened to the reply unlike now when they interupt the retort with another question (take note Chan 4 News). And tho this was a even more difficult time the politicians & journalists kept a calmness that helped us cope unlike now with BBC NEWS 24 et al creating & whipping up a sense of rabid panic & division.
Now that's a close margin, one vote! I wonder if Callaghan felt betrayed by the very trades union that he supported, bringing about the Winter of Discontent and thence his downfall
If the one Labour MP who was too ill to attend the house had been there the government would have survived.
Although this would have given a tied vote at 311 each the Speaker holds the casting vote and by convention when needed (which is VERY rare) the speaker votes to maintain the status quo as there is no majority in the house for change.
Hence here he would have voted 'no' as that would maintain the sitting government and so no change.
@@madabbafan There would still have been an election within the next few months as the Government was in its 5th year
@@yorkiephil7744 that is true but the goverment's position may have improved by then to the point they might have won.
@@madabbafan That was Sir Alfred Broughton. He was willing to come to Commons to vote (they would have let him vote from ambulance parked in Speaker's Court), but Callaghan was concerned of the reaction had he died en route and told him to stay. Broughton died a couple days later.
@@garyrasberryjr.552 true, although when it became clear during the debate that it would be, at best, a tie Callaghan changed his mind and asked if they could get him down but by then it was too late to make the trip to be in time to vote.
Before the BBC became a tabloid!
The difference between BBC political coverage in 1979 and 2019 is vast isn't it?
@@johnking5174 Just the way the Tories like it. No light, just heat.
Seems like a different era. Proper reporting by the BBC, civilised interviews by Robert McKenzie with Lords Carrington and Diamond. Proper discussion between Pereguine Worsthorne and John Cole. No little temper tantrums a la Owen Jones.
Three TV channels causes this. We were not saturated with TV, unlike now with hundreds of channels and of course everyone has their own TV station, with RUclips and on demand, all has changed people's attitudes.
Why are you singling out Owen Jones? The news in the UK is in its current dire straights because of right wing client journalists like Andrew Neil, Laura Keunssberg, Fiona Bruce, Justin Webb, Chris Mason, Nick Robinson and Amol Rajan.
Peregrine Worsthorne later wrote an article asking whether true conservatives should vote for Thatcher
To vote for Thatcher.
To voe for the betterment of country and community.
They cold do one or the other not both simultaneously.
This was a full decade before there was full televised coverage of the House of Commons. Sound coverage of the Commons chamber only started in April 1978. Until 1989 when the Commons was fully televised, the public only saw inside the chamber once per year for the State Opening of Parliament.
It was my 15th birthday. Dad let me stay up for the vote. I was, and am, a Tory, he a socialist. He gave me such a wallop! Went to bed happy though😆
Why did he wallop you? It wasn't your fault the government lost:).
I voted thumb down to the walloping. As an American I have no interest who wins, just enjoy watching the election night coverage
@@ukchristian28 His father didn't - Alan is lying for effect. Pitiful, really.
@@garymitchell5899 What makes you so sure?
I wonder if we will see something like this in the next five years?
one word man probably not, the DUP are pretty anti-Labour, the Tories would have to seriously upset Northern Ireland or Labour would have to ditch Corbyn. A Labour minority government was always more likely to fall because the Liberals swing both ways and Labour MPs are generally less disciplined and concerned about holding government.
If you want a more relevant example, you'll have to go back to 1996/7 when John Major lost his majority and had to rely on the Unionists. Even then, the Unionists wouldn't back Tony Blair.
If you ask me, the next election will be in 2020, once Brexit is done with and the Tories replace There's May with David Davis
I agree. This is a great time for Labour, if they stay out of government. The momentum is with them from the shock result, the Tories are in a bind and must abandon most of their controversial policies, and Labour won't have to administer Brexit and please nobody.
one word man I don't know about that I'm hearing rumours from people I know that students were intimidated by momentum activists in their own unis to vote Labour, so therefore the hung parliament result may have been fixed.
The Tory campaign was terrible but they did get 43% of the vote as predicted. The problem was Labour were consistently predicted to be around 30-35% but then got 41% and a lot of the extra seats they got may have been as a result of double voting in seats like Canterbury and Lincoln, full of students but not natural Labour voters.
Also they promised to scrap tuition fees and now they've u-turned on that, expect lots of students to turn on Labour within a year or two. Plus the fact that the Lib Dems now have a proper leader in Vince Cable and not a homophobe in Tim Farron...and if David Davis gets in, then he can attract much of the working class vote, because unlike Corbyn or Theresa May, he didn't go to university, was born in a council house and served in the SAS and so may better appeal to the working class.
This is not a thread. I have no interest in a debate and will not respond after this comment. I am just correcting some mistakes you have made in my opinion.
1) Momentum activists do not have the numbers or influence to intimidate students into voting Labour. I know this from personal experience. Momentum, especially the student wing, are often pathetically useless campaigners and, if they tried to intimidate me I'd just vote the other way. It's a secret ballot.
2) I doubt that double voting really happened in anything more than a handful of cases. It probably had no effect whatsoever. There's no evidence for it anyway. I'm sure the authorities will look into it.
3) Tories are getting it wrong by focusing on student debt. Hardly anyone under 30 takes the Tories seriously, but Corbyn is pretty popular with them. Labour lost the election, and the Tories are the ones who have left young people with their mountains of debt anyway. In any case, the Labour manifesto said nothing about past debt and so it wasn't a u-turn. Corbyn never promised to eliminate all debt, only fees for current students. The Tories are hoping that young people will get confused and think Corbyn u-turned on ending tuition fees, which he hasn't. It's just standard political spin. It won't work.
one word man and you wonder why the Tories were ahead in every single poll till the last day or two of that election? Come on.
I wonder if the producer Roger Bolton is the same Roger Bolton who does Feedback on Radio 4? I love these old politics shows so different from the shouting and ad homiknem we get today. And that cheesy music at the end. Priceless.
Yes, it is. He became editor of Panorama later in 1979, and then of Nationwide; he was the target of Denis Thatcher's anger after Margaret Thatcher was forcefully challenged by a viewer during the 1983 election. More recently has done radio including presenting 'Sunday' and 'Feedback' on Radio 4.
in our long history there can be few parliamentary occasions to match this.
8:07 is when the vote was announced
310 OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH!!!
Had Jim Callaghan have called an election for say October or November 1978 would he have won a majority and how different would things have been?
Thatcher would have been booted out of the tory leadership, the tories are brutal with leaders who lose elections.
Callsghan himself said he did not call an election because his advisors told him he would not get an overall majority.
I was too young but from what I read at that time(1978) the economy was doing OK and was growing. And usually when the economy is doing well people usually are happy enough with the Government.Hence why I reckon he would have got a majority albeit not a big majority,maybe say 20.
@@Robbiewa-bg4lu Well the UK had been saved from bankruptcy by the IMF but apart from that yeah fine.
I understand Callaghan thought he could win in 1978 but not with a workable majority, he banked on better prospects in the Spring and we all know how that turned out.
Labour has only just won in 1974 and the prospect of more of the same wasn't palatable to him
This is all very strange. As I have commented elsewhere, I must at least occasionally have watched Tonight at the time it was broadcast, when I was between the ages of 15 and 19. In fact I clearly remember the night that this vote occurred so I must have been watching.
However, I have just no recollection of the Tonight programme itself! When Newsnight came along the following year, I remember it clearly even the fact that it was not always on at the same time each night. It seems that the memories of Tonight have been ‘written over’!
Ironically it was another Ulster MP. Frank Maguire, (Fermanagh and South Tyrone) who brought the Callaghan government down
Gerry fitt, who was sympathetic to labour, abstained. Callaghan increased unionist mps to try to win their support.
@@wonjubhoy Well considering Gerry Fitt was a founder/member of the Social, Democratic and Labour Party in Northern Ireland, it is not surprising he was sympathetic to Labour, as Labour was in the title of his own party.
I noticed here that the speaker didn't say "Unlock!" after announcing the result. Was it standard procedure for that to be said back then or was it just not heard on this broadcast?
Also noted how reference is made to Callaghan and Thatcher getting up and going to the dispatch box. In recent commons votes May and Corbyn seem to just stand up where they are and the speaker introduces them with "Point Of Order". Was the procedure of getting up and going to the dispatch box done away with at some point?
Also does anyone know if there is a reason why the commons voting procedure was not televised? Were there restrictions on this back then?
Television broadcasts of parliamentary proceedings were not introduced until 1989, prior to this only radio broadcasts were heard. I'm guessing the reason why big votes like this were not televised was probably due to their not being the appropriate infrastructure in place and the costs of setting it up would not be worth for something that would be broadcast very late at night and not well watched.
@@callumclark4021 there was real reluctance to move towards parliament being televised (it was difficult enough to get it in radio, and many MPs were against that too). The radio broadcasts were originally a limited experiment. A lot of MPs thought being televised would fundamentally alter the character of the chamber and many worried that some MPs would become attention seekers in order to get on TV.
It may be that the Speaker's call of 'unlock' may have been spoken over by the broadcaster but also the numbers give 621 votes out of the 635 seats there were at the time. Factor in the Speaker and his deputies who don't vote (4) the vacant seats (6) those known to be too ill to attend (1) and those known to be in the house but had declared they would abstain (2). It only left one MP was was nearly always absent. With this taken into account the speaker may well have decided it was unessessery to call it.
Not having Alfred Broughton there, despite him being all but dead cost them big time
nk tryed to bruy us in 1990
Doc Broughton died a few days later
What REALLY cost them is not well known but it was that the two chief whips met and the Labour Cheif Whip formally asked for 'a pair' so that a Conservative MP would sit out on the vote to cover Alfred Broughton's abence (this was and still is a long standing agreement for most votes) and after Bernard Weatherill, then the Conservative chief whip, said he didn't have one as pairing was never meant for confidence votes, he then offered to sit out himself even though that would mean his political carear would be over to honour the agreement the two always had.
The Labour cheif whip told Weatherill he could not put him in that position so withdrew his pairing request so Weatherill voted.
Had the offer been accepted it would have been a tie and on the Speaker's casting vote they would have survived as in a tie the Speaker always votes to maintain the status quo in this case it would have been to vote 'no' as there was no majority in the house to change the governemnt.
Weatherill went onto be the next Speaker of the house and is the last one to ware the wig. He always maintained the wig was very useful as it alowed one to pretend not to have heared something.
John Cole of course later joined the BBC as a political correspondent, and got wickedly lampooned by Spitting Image!!
jc
Great to hear the late Michael Foot's words of wisdom
The rest, as they say.....is history...
It would have happened sooner or later anyway, but the Labour Government was effectively defeated in the confidence vote by two Northern Ireland MPs: Gerry Fitt, a socialist by nature, and leader of a party (the SDLP) which was seen as a 'sister party' to Labour, but who had fallen-out with Labour because there was a proposal to increase Westminster seats in NI from 12 to 17 - leading to more Unionists. So, Fitt withdrew his support for Labour.
The other Northern Ireland MP who was key was Frank Maguire, the Independent (Irish) Nationalist MP for Fermanagh & South Tyrone. He eventually wouldn't support the Callaghan Government, either, hence this loss of confidence vote.
Fermanagh & South Tyrone would later figure again in Westmister politics. Soon after republican terrorist prisoners had begun a hunger strike for 'political status', which the Government refused, Frank Maguire died suddenly. So, a by-election was called for Fermanagh South-Tyrone. Sinn Fein, the IRA's political wing, put-up Bobby Sands, a hunger striker, as a candidate, resulting in (even by Northern Ireland standards) an extremely polarised campaign. Sands won the by-election, over his Unionist opponent, and was elected MP for the constituency. Clearly, he couldn't (being in jail) & wouldn't have taken his seat anyway due to republican abstentionism. Sands died a few weeks' later.
11 snp mps treason
@@jimsmith2282 the SNP had supported the government as they wanted a Scottish Parliament. A labour mp put through a 40% rule resulting in the failure of the devolution vote. That was why they turned against labour.
Good Lord, you two must be a blast at parties......!!
@@cityandsuburb Give them a break. Some of us are just born Politics junkies. One day it will be a recognised condition until then we need understanding not contempt::)
@@cityandsuburb God forbid people understand how the world works. Proud of your ignorance, says a lot
Remember listening to this on the radio tucked up in bed
Well no because it was on TV.
@@garymitchell5899 believe me there was no televising of Parliament in 1979!
@@christophersanton Watch the video you can see their faces.
@@garymitchell5899 It was on BBC One, ITV and on BBC Radio 4 that night, coverage of the downfall of the government
@@christophersantonit’s is
Politics of yesteryears, amazing coverage.
Interesting that despite the drama, there is no hysteria from the media just professionalism and reporting. Unlike now
According to BBC Genome, Tonight was supposed to air at 10.30pm after Sportsnight which should have started at 9.35pm. Did the BBC reschedules its late evening BBC1 to air Tonight as closest to 10.00pm as possible?
It's fairly clear the programme started at 10:10pm, as we know what time the division result came. So I wonder if Sportsnight was just cut short (it was usually live).
I bet it was, as this was a very important event, which Radio Times could not have predicted.
21:35: Sportsnight
Introduced by Harry Carpenter The Greyhound TV Trophy from Hall Green , Birmingham
Live coverage of tonight's three heats of this prestige long-distance event, first run 21 years ago, and now worth a record £1,750 to the winning owner. Two grey-hounds from each heat over 815m will qualify for the final.
Commentator HARRY CARPENTER
The World Welterweight Championship
Wilfredo Benitez (Puerto Rico) (The Champion) v Harold Weston (USA)
Sunday's fight in Puerto Rico was of particular interest to British fight-fans as our European champion Dave ' Boy' Green seems sure to fight the winner for the world title later in the year. The Grand National
A look ahead to Saturday's running of the world's greatest steeplechase.
Greyhound tv presentation JOHN SHREWSBURY
Producer JOHN PHILIPS
Editor JONATHAN MARTIN
Contributors
Introduced By: Harry Carpenter
Unknown: Hall Green
Commentator: Harry Carpenter
Unknown: Wilfredo Benitez
Unknown: Harold Weston
Unknown: John Shrewsbury
Producer: John Philips
Editor: Jonathan Martin
22.30: Tonight
Including News Headlines
Producers JOHN HOLME , BARBARA MAXWELL Editor ROGER BOLTON
Contributors
Producers: John Holme
Producers: Barbara Maxwell
Editor: Roger Bolton
I guess then that the Boxing highlights and Grand National preview were cut off
Who on earth recorded this momentus T.V...?
I'm very impressed, the prescience is incredibly impressive....
This was the beginning of the end of any sort of competent or humane leadership in England.
Had Jim Callaghan's government managed to survive this vote, is it likely that they would have held out until Autumn 1979 and if so is it likely they could have turned their fortunes round at all?
Not really, the damaged was already done, it would have been simply postponing the inevitable. Also remember the opposition would have fought hard in getting another vote of no confidence in the Callaghan government. Labour didn't have a majority, and so were under constant threat, it simply couldn't survive to autumn 79, it would have fallen sooner rather than later.
Listening to Pym and Foot is like 2 bald men fighting over a comb. Pardoe at least recognises how moribund the system had become and seeks to change it for the better.
Britain had become the 'sick man of Europe' and both Labor and the Conservatives (up until the accession of Thatcher) had both practised (more or less) the same grab bag of Socialist policies that led to Britain having to be bailed out by the IMF. From 45 onwards, Britain's standard of living was one of managed decline, culminating in The Winter of disconten
This was the reason why the SNP are called the Tartan Tories.
If Callaghan had called an election in Autumn 1978 winning with a small majority or being the largest party in a Hung Parliament and then the Winter Of Discontent had happened is it possible his reputation would have still taken a nosedive resulting in Labour being forced out of power by 1983 if not earlier?
“Perhaps historic”
Woo buddy
Lord Tonypandy was the Speaker.
That's my grandad!!!!!
The lady at the beginning?
@@garymitchell5899 How droll, you know he was meaning Donald McCormick
I think people underestimate how much political and social chaos was happening in Britain at the time
With 18 years of Tory chaos to come.
David steele is king herrod
Foote is being quite nasty.
As of writing (18:38 6/6/22) let's hope Boris loses his vote of confidence!
Something I have thought of, if Callaghan HAD called an election in the autumn of 1978 is it possible that the Winter Of Discontent would have been avoided or is it possible that something like it would have happened further on down the line?
Just delayed down the line.
A black shadow of selfishness and evil lay over the country and has not left since.
The by election the following day sounded like a waste of time, seeing that the winner would barely (if at all) be able to take their place in the Commons prior to the dissolution and constituents would need to vote again in the General Election anyway.
David Alton did take his seat in the 1974 Parliament. And won it again 5 weeks later.
I recently read that once in power Thatcher didn't implement the decision of the referendum that brought about this No Confidence vote. Did she surffer much criticism for this or did her parliamentary majority mean there was little the opposition could do?
That's a difficult question. The referendum was on whether to implement the Scotland Act 1978 to create a devolved government, but part of the Act said the Government must propose repeal of the Act if the number voting 'Yes' was less than 40% of the total number of voters. In the referendum the majority voted Yes, but it didn't reach 40%. So Thatcher argued the Act should be repealed, and in the general election promised further discussions on devolution. It was only after the election that she made it clear there would be no devolution. Of course there was nothing the opposition could do - but devolution became a big campaign issue in Scotland. The 1997 Labour government enacted a much broader devolution scheme than the ill-fated one from 1978.
Thanks for explaining. Given it was clear that there needed to be a vote in excess of 40% for a devolved government and total number of votes in favour was less than that why were the opposition able to put down this 'No Confidence' motion in the first place?
@@martindavis6115 One of the unwritten conventions in Parliament is that the main Opposition party has a right to put down a motion of no confidence at any time, and the government will find its own time for the debate.
@@DBIVUK Fair enough. I seem to recall Corbyn attempted to in late 2018 and the speaker refused to allow parliamentary time to debate it. I know Corbyn subsequently did a month later though (and lost).
I'd be interested to find out did the pound fall against other currencies following the announcement the government had been defeated?
Did it fall? Well, key market stats at close of trading:
27 March: FT All Share 266.61, Ordinary Index 539.3. £1 = $2.0530, 8.80Fr, DM 3.83
28 March: FT All Share 268.64, Ordinary Index 538.3. £1 = $2.0500, 8.78Fr, DM 3.81
29 March: FT All Share 271.71, Ordinary Index 540.8. £1 = $2.0550, 8.82Fr, DM 3.83
30 March: FT All Share 266.28, Ordinary Index 530.8. £1 = $2.0650, 8.87Fr, DM 3.85
Thanks for that interesting info
@@DBIVUK
Well, thats cleared that up then.....
In the pre-electronic trading age, I think the markets were less volatile to political events than they are today.
@@callumclark4021 exchange controls were also in place. You couldn't take or move more than £50 out of the country without permission. The Thatcher government got rid of those controls.
Michael Foot was a great debater and, more important, his intelligence - I admire Michael Foot so much
If it wouldn't have been for the Falklands war he probably would've become Prime Minister
@@thatweatherman4411 No, I don't think so. More likely, because he wanted to get us out of the EU.
Showed what a fool foot was
Michael Foot after this became the leader of the opposition in 1980 lead the labour party though it most difficult period and it heavy election lose in 1983
And then Pardoe lost his seat! Turkeys voting for Christmas.
I don't like any movement to the right, but regardless of the direction, U.K. election methods are vastly better than those of my nation, the U.S.
Parliament candidates spend a few weeks campaigning, then years dealing with national policy.
Our Congressional candidates spent years campaigning and a few weeks barely touching real policies.
Shame this historic vote of no confidence was only viewed in the flesh.
What do you mean?
@@johnking5174 The House of Commons was not filmed then.
@@JamesRichards-mj9kw Okay, I see what you mean, yes sound broadcast only started in that year 1978 and it would be another 11 years before proper TV broadcasting of the Commons started.
As much as the public's mood was swinging towards Thatcher, Callaghan's loss was really due to unfortunate circumstances. Had Labour MP Tom swayne of Derby north not been unfortunately killed by a road collision, Callaghan would have succeeded in winning the vote. Due to Derby north having no sitting MP at that time, the vote from that area was not cast and Callaghan lost by the one vote. Technically it was due to the tragic death of Tom that saw Callaghan lose. We would have lived in a different nation had Jim won the vote
Not a word of truth in this but the missing vote from Doc Alf Broughton was decisive
Gerry Fitt normally supported labour but abstained on the vote after hearing Callaghan was going to give unionists more MPs in Northern Ireland.
the heavy framed glasses. They made sure those things stay put.
What a shame that what happened at 8:20 didn't happen on Wednesday evening!
we are lucky
For a fairer Britain you should ALWAYS vote Conservative.
Lol you make me laugh
Said no one ever.
You mean NEVER vote Tory scum?
Bwahahahahaha 😂
No, reform
Revoke Article 50...
n
fucking snp got thatcher in
Very true !!
Exactly this was the reason why the SNP are called the Tartan Tories.
Cope harder