Good video! Takes me back... In the early days of 2nd Ed, back when the only supplements were the Fighter and Thieves' Guides, our DM sent our 1st level characters into his "Revolving Dungeon", a cursed subterranean labyrinth of 50' x 50' rooms connected by 50' stretches of hallway. Each room had 4 doors. When you entered one, the door closed behind you and the whole structure would magically rotate. Often, one of the doors in the new room would open and a random monster or monsters would appear and attack. Sometimes, it would be a party of NPCs, some wishing to trade, others fight. Other times the room would remain empty. The hallways between the rooms were often trapped with some brutal selections from Grimtooth's book. No one hungered or thirsted in the dungeon. He took the time to write up a great backstory for Dungeon and detail the surrounding area. As characters died, their replacements would literally walk through a door and join the party. By the time we made it out the other side, my character was a 14th level fighter with the Barbarian kit and the only surviving original member, along with an NPC, a dwarven porter the original party's wizard had hired. This all lead right into a fabulous Underdark campaign involving inter-dimensional travel and strawberries. Good times, good times... Thanks for the trip down memory lane and consider me subscribed.
Could have a main character being a captains and then also have another game of the actual troops? they would have some story arch with the captians and the tactics and the troops being affected by the actual war and having to fight. could be an interesting meat grinder.
I've thought of a pretty good situation/campaign/party-gatherer: everyone just got hired by a mercenary guild. Each player can tell their character(s)'s backstory and/or why they joined the guild if that's what the DM wants, or you can go meat grinder and throw merc after merc through the dungeon. This also helps to solve if/when players don't show up. You can just have them on a different assignment for the guild. The same goes for new players. Here's this new hire, reinforcements, etc. that the guild sent to help you or for you to train or whatever. Another thing that I really like about this idea is that each player can have multiple characters simultaneously. You can mix and match to plan for the upcoming mission, job, or whatever. One final point is that the players' characters can rise through the ranks of the guild, allowing to game to turn more towards intrigue and politics.
I've played a lot of meatgrinder adventures in AD&D and 3.5/Pathfinder. Generally they weren't _totally_ insane meatgrinders (most characters survived after epic nat-20 rolling). Good fun. Insane. Makes you totally paranoid! haha.
One thing I couldn't help but think about during the video was Dark Souls, what with it's 'you will die' tagline. I think that could be an interesting way to do it, where, yeah, you die, and maybe lose your gear or come back weakened in some way, but you still have that character come back to either try again, or go off somewhere else, or....ya know, whatever. Could even RP it like they're cursed to be unable to truly die, so death is always seeking them out to try and succeed NEXT time :P
What you're missing is the REASON the Meat Grinder was created. It was Gygax's reply to too many stupid people saying "my character is unkillable" blah blah blah. He made the Meat Grinder style adventures with the idea that, if you were interested in story and roleplay, you could survive. It would still be hard, but by roleplaying, being engaged and asking questions, you can see most of the traps coming. The idea of Meat Grinders is that when you go in with a "Gamist" mentality you'll die so fast it's not even funny, but if you go in with a "Roleplay" mentality you should be okay.
I've always wondered what a "Meat Grinder" game would be like. I've never played one. Sounds more like a "One-Shot" game, that's not necessarily a one-shot. I wonder if you could do a RP-Meat Grinder where the characters are put into role-play situations that are intense and mean the life or death of either themselves or other people? This would be based on how well the players RP instead of how well they fight. Great Stuff guys!
That sounds like the premiss of the anime Danganronpa; basically these characters are stuck in a closed room murder mystery and other "find the criminal" situations that have them whittle each other down... surprise part way through they realize that there is outside interference. So in DnD that translate more to each player has backstory reasons that only the GM knows (that way talking to the GM in secret mid game is less likely to point out the source of trouble) that effect the campaigns outcome. For instance the "Champion" of the people (champion fighter) that has the folk hero back ground and is LG has a very dark and unpleasent piece of history... He killed a villains family in order to rob them and make enough in the past to become who they now are... the killer was never caught, yet the villain suspects you and you cannot risk the truth being varified... So yeah once said villain pops up but before the group catches on to their pressence, conversations can happen... If every player has things of that nature where they cannot allow the truth to come to light; sure the players grow suspicious but there characters have to realize then understand the problems... It sounds like that could be awesome; good luck.
The alternate rest rules in the DMG may offer an alternative that makes players truly consider whether or not a fight is worth it. Short rest is 8 hours and long is 7 days.
Reminds me of a comedic one shot I ran for a 3.0-3.5 mish mosh home brew. BOOM! An interdimensional portal explodes outward and sucks the party in. They're on a floating cemetery with open graves, each with a coffin sitting 6 feet under. All the coffins are trapped with explosives and have vampires inside of them except one with the exit portal.
As I understand it, "Gygaxian" refers to taking the dice seriously - i.e. if the dice say a character dies, he/she dies, instead of dice rolls being fudged in order to maintain player development/interest/etc. Complete meat-grinders like Tomb of Horrors are kind of an exception. That said, you can (if you are so inclined) have gritty campaigns where players are running multiple (three, four, five or more) characters, which may die at certain points, and perhaps not return. Such campaigns de-emphasize role-playing, obviously, but at least you don't have to rotate in a new character in the middle of the dungeon or sit there with nothing to do every time someone bites the dust.
Something I'm really curious about - does anyone have experience running a meatgrinder for epic level (21 and above) characters? I feel like things might get rather entertaining throwing PCs who have that much power into a gygaxian dungeon. Can anyone attest to this? Does it make the dungeon a cakewalk, or is it still deadly? And should players still be encouraged to make multiple characters, or would spells like Resurrection and such curb that need?
We went into a dungeon that wasn't suppose to be a meat grinder but it was suppose to be one that leveled you up slowly. Once you were high enough level you were suppose to have the skills to find all the secrets and defeat all the enemies. It went wrong when a character had a search skill high enough to find a secret door when he rolled a twenty. Needless to say we weren't ready for a cr 5 at first or second level.
I like the feed on this myself i like a Gygax meat grinder feel but toned down as a high challenge game or campaign that has the player characters looking to defeat the offending power to be
If I may ask, is not the Dark Sun setting a "meat grinder"? Was it not recommended that all players roll multiple characters because they were likely not going to survive right off the bat? Please clarify.
The way I take it, that's just the harshness of the setting, but you can still tell compelling stories in that context. In a meat grinder, there's little vestiges of a story, it's all about the challenges of the dungeon. -Nerdarchist Ryan
True, but is not "the harshness of the setting" the defining characteristic of a "meat grinder"? I think it's somantics, myself. I am not intending to spark an argument, but it seems that the concept of a "meat grinder" campaign is already founded, in principle, in Dark Sun. I agree that a "meat grinder" is a poor concept for a campaign, as campaigns are centered around growth and storytelling. I agree that such requirements are necessary for a meaningful tabletop experience. So, to clarify, a "meat grinder" has a high mortality rate, but no story, and is therefore not a proper campaign setting. Is that you stance?
Mike Gould I'll agree to that- meat grinders are more like those "mega dungeon" modules where it's a war of attrition. The de-emphasis on RP and narrative would be defining characteristics of a MG. Dark Sun is essentially dark, post apocalyptic fantasy. If lethality were the sole definition of MG's, all GURPS and Savage World's games would too easily fall into that category. I never shy away from healthy, well reasoned discussion. -Nerdarchist Ryan
The real secret to making a meat grinder game fun is figuring out how to make dying part of that fun. If dying is not the end of the game for a player and in fact includes an element of reward, then it no longer becomes a punishment, but an aspect of the game that can be worked and exploited with skill like any other. I must make this game.
Nerdarchy I would be interested in how to run 'guerrilla' combat (ala Shadow-run crossed with Saints Row,) with 5e D&D. How do I go about this? I have a magi-tech campaign world, but have no clue how to go about it... Can you Guys please help?
Hmmm I'm sure could come up with some ideas about guerilla warfare. You are talking about hit and runs, skirmishes, and running battles? - Nerdarchist Dave
Nerdarchy Yes Please! I am working on revamping my campaign world of Haven (A Hextech Necromunda) for 5e. The Party wants to play Saints Row Style; a small non-noble gang that will hit and run on Noble facilities, choosing where and when to ambush and even moving battles (or more likely they stole a Arms Cart/ A noble's Carriage with the Noble hostage). The Noble Houses/Gangs are officially in a 'peace', but hit-and-runs in between the Noble houses will be a regular thing from disavowed 'splinter cells'.
You could play as characters that have been cursed to die x number of times or live in eternal torment. Also you could do it league of legends style where you are the same character and you respawn at the start of the dungeon.
If you want to play the videogame version of a meatgrinder, you should try The Legend of Zelda: The Adventure of Link. It is a platformer kind of Castlevania. This game wants to kill you. The difficulty does not really come from bats knocking you into pits (although it does that), it comes from you slowly running out of health and mana in dungeons with limited refills. As you go deeper into the dungeon, you will inevitable loose life against the strong monsters the game throws at you. Or sometimes you have to use spells to get past an obstacle and waste the mana you need for healing. Sure, there are some flasks of mana hidden in the dungeons, but there is a 50% chance an enemy will spawn instead.
You said "Gygax Style." I was expecting three D6 in order. That's how we used to make characters. Bad rolling will explain how my characters didn't survive. And that was just an average dungeon.
Have you ever been part of a game with a relentlessly reckless player that makes every situation into a meat grinder? Inappropriate targets & timing. AKA - I attack the city guard or NPC for no reason! It can be like playing with Groo the Wanderer (Mad Magazine).
I'm gonna be making a meat grinder isekai. You ever heard of quantum immortality? I showed them my self made table of imagining ourselves but different. Like if you had a felony, if you had a better job, if you were younger, older, were the reverse gender but it's still you but encourages you to think different and have a detachment from the real you. Cause I'll be shocked if anyone survives. The real game is to see who the smartest player is not the strongest. To the justice league unlimited theme where it's like you have infinite tries to prove to me you don't suck and have to wear the inverted burger king crown like a dunce cap.
'Take over a small country - by yourself!' I created a meatgrinder campaign based on the myth of Theseus and Menutauros. It's not a game to be taken seriously, it's a game where your characters are definitely going to die frequently, horribly, and stupidly. I've described it as essentially a roguelike on more than one occasion.
This is a DM 911, and my one part that I'm DMing for has a really bad part comp that I need help with because the PC's that I have a 1 high elf rouge, 1 high elf wizard, 1 trifling Druid, 1 crow rouge, and a warlock. I'm just having trouble not want to kill there characters with some goblins by accident because of there lower HP. In the store that I'm doing is that there helping this paladin get back this holy artifact from these evil cultist that want to corrupt the artifact.
Dying in a game, or even the odd TPK due to negligence or other reasons, doesn't mean it's a meatgrinder necessarily. Death is a possibility in a good game, at least in my opinion, and it should be up to the player to kill himself via bad decision making, usually.
You are correct. A meat grinder is designed to kill the characters that enter it. Can they survive and win the day, yes. It is just highly unlikely. - Nerdarchist Dave
Good video! Takes me back...
In the early days of 2nd Ed, back when the only supplements were the Fighter and Thieves' Guides, our DM sent our 1st level characters into his "Revolving Dungeon", a cursed subterranean labyrinth of 50' x 50' rooms connected by 50' stretches of hallway. Each room had 4 doors. When you entered one, the door closed behind you and the whole structure would magically rotate. Often, one of the doors in the new room would open and a random monster or monsters would appear and attack. Sometimes, it would be a party of NPCs, some wishing to trade, others fight. Other times the room would remain empty. The hallways between the rooms were often trapped with some brutal selections from Grimtooth's book. No one hungered or thirsted in the dungeon.
He took the time to write up a great backstory for Dungeon and detail the surrounding area. As characters died, their replacements would literally walk through a door and join the party. By the time we made it out the other side, my character was a 14th level fighter with the Barbarian kit and the only surviving original member, along with an NPC, a dwarven porter the original party's wizard had hired. This all lead right into a fabulous Underdark campaign involving inter-dimensional travel and strawberries. Good times, good times...
Thanks for the trip down memory lane and consider me subscribed.
Could have a main character being a captains and then also have another game of the actual troops? they would have some story arch with the captians and the tactics and the troops being affected by the actual war and having to fight. could be an interesting meat grinder.
I've thought of a pretty good situation/campaign/party-gatherer: everyone just got hired by a mercenary guild. Each player can tell their character(s)'s backstory and/or why they joined the guild if that's what the DM wants, or you can go meat grinder and throw merc after merc through the dungeon.
This also helps to solve if/when players don't show up. You can just have them on a different assignment for the guild. The same goes for new players. Here's this new hire, reinforcements, etc. that the guild sent to help you or for you to train or whatever.
Another thing that I really like about this idea is that each player can have multiple characters simultaneously. You can mix and match to plan for the upcoming mission, job, or whatever.
One final point is that the players' characters can rise through the ranks of the guild, allowing to game to turn more towards intrigue and politics.
Clearly explained, great video : )
Korvaak Calyana Thank you
I've played a lot of meatgrinder adventures in AD&D and 3.5/Pathfinder. Generally they weren't _totally_ insane meatgrinders (most characters survived after epic nat-20 rolling). Good fun. Insane. Makes you totally paranoid! haha.
One thing I couldn't help but think about during the video was Dark Souls, what with it's 'you will die' tagline. I think that could be an interesting way to do it, where, yeah, you die, and maybe lose your gear or come back weakened in some way, but you still have that character come back to either try again, or go off somewhere else, or....ya know, whatever. Could even RP it like they're cursed to be unable to truly die, so death is always seeking them out to try and succeed NEXT time :P
I've seen variants of those ideas for meat grinders.
- Nerdarchist Dave
What you're missing is the REASON the Meat Grinder was created. It was Gygax's reply to too many stupid people saying "my character is unkillable" blah blah blah. He made the Meat Grinder style adventures with the idea that, if you were interested in story and roleplay, you could survive. It would still be hard, but by roleplaying, being engaged and asking questions, you can see most of the traps coming. The idea of Meat Grinders is that when you go in with a "Gamist" mentality you'll die so fast it's not even funny, but if you go in with a "Roleplay" mentality you should be okay.
great timing!!! i just started dming one earlier today
Beastrolami Oh' you evil person you
Yea we knew that. Exactly why we posted this today. Yup that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
- Nerdarchist Dave
I've always wondered what a "Meat Grinder" game would be like. I've never played one. Sounds more like a "One-Shot" game, that's not necessarily a one-shot. I wonder if you could do a RP-Meat Grinder where the characters are put into role-play situations that are intense and mean the life or death of either themselves or other people? This would be based on how well the players RP instead of how well they fight. Great Stuff guys!
Wednesday night Rise of Tiamat Finale will most likely be Meatgrinder.
Shane and Steven will be at least. Mine will be more John Woo Cinematic.
That is new concept, but not without merit. It would very interesting to say the least.
- Nerdarchist Dave
That sounds like the premiss of the anime Danganronpa; basically these characters are stuck in a closed room murder mystery and other "find the criminal" situations that have them whittle each other down... surprise part way through they realize that there is outside interference.
So in DnD that translate more to each player has backstory reasons that only the GM knows (that way talking to the GM in secret mid game is less likely to point out the source of trouble) that effect the campaigns outcome. For instance the "Champion" of the people (champion fighter) that has the folk hero back ground and is LG has a very dark and unpleasent piece of history... He killed a villains family in order to rob them and make enough in the past to become who they now are... the killer was never caught, yet the villain suspects you and you cannot risk the truth being varified...
So yeah once said villain pops up but before the group catches on to their pressence, conversations can happen...
If every player has things of that nature where they cannot allow the truth to come to light; sure the players grow suspicious but there characters have to realize then understand the problems... It sounds like that could be awesome; good luck.
Art Wood it’s slow and crawly
The alternate rest rules in the DMG may offer an alternative that makes players truly consider whether or not a fight is worth it. Short rest is 8 hours and long is 7 days.
Reminds me of a comedic one shot I ran for a 3.0-3.5 mish mosh home brew. BOOM! An interdimensional portal explodes outward and sucks the party in. They're on a floating cemetery with open graves, each with a coffin sitting 6 feet under. All the coffins are trapped with explosives and have vampires inside of them except one with the exit portal.
As I understand it, "Gygaxian" refers to taking the dice seriously - i.e. if the dice say a character dies, he/she dies, instead of dice rolls being fudged in order to maintain player development/interest/etc. Complete meat-grinders like Tomb of Horrors are kind of an exception. That said, you can (if you are so inclined) have gritty campaigns where players are running multiple (three, four, five or more) characters, which may die at certain points, and perhaps not return. Such campaigns de-emphasize role-playing, obviously, but at least you don't have to rotate in a new character in the middle of the dungeon or sit there with nothing to do every time someone bites the dust.
Yeah, whenever the risk of fatality is high, the "character tree" comes in handy. -Nerdarchist Ryan
Something I'm really curious about - does anyone have experience running a meatgrinder for epic level (21 and above) characters? I feel like things might get rather entertaining throwing PCs who have that much power into a gygaxian dungeon. Can anyone attest to this? Does it make the dungeon a cakewalk, or is it still deadly? And should players still be encouraged to make multiple characters, or would spells like Resurrection and such curb that need?
We went into a dungeon that wasn't suppose to be a meat grinder but it was suppose to be one that leveled you up slowly. Once you were high enough level you were suppose to have the skills to find all the secrets and defeat all the enemies. It went wrong when a character had a search skill high enough to find a secret door when he rolled a twenty. Needless to say we weren't ready for a cr 5 at first or second level.
That is the true reward of a meat grinder . Death for doing to well on a skill check.
- Nerdarchist Dave
I like the feed on this myself i like a Gygax meat grinder feel but toned down as a high challenge game or campaign that has the player characters looking to defeat the offending power to be
If I may ask, is not the Dark Sun setting a "meat grinder"? Was it not recommended that all players roll multiple characters because they were likely not going to survive right off the bat? Please clarify.
The way I take it, that's just the harshness of the setting, but you can still tell compelling stories in that context. In a meat grinder, there's little vestiges of a story, it's all about the challenges of the dungeon. -Nerdarchist Ryan
True, but is not "the harshness of the setting" the defining characteristic of a "meat grinder"? I think it's somantics, myself. I am not intending to spark an argument, but it seems that the concept of a "meat grinder" campaign is already founded, in principle, in Dark Sun.
I agree that a "meat grinder" is a poor concept for a campaign, as campaigns are centered around growth and storytelling. I agree that such requirements are necessary for a meaningful tabletop experience.
So, to clarify, a "meat grinder" has a high mortality rate, but no story, and is therefore not a proper campaign setting. Is that you stance?
Mike Gould I'll agree to that- meat grinders are more like those "mega dungeon" modules where it's a war of attrition. The de-emphasis on RP and narrative would be defining characteristics of a MG.
Dark Sun is essentially dark, post apocalyptic fantasy. If lethality were the sole definition of MG's, all GURPS and Savage World's games would too easily fall into that category. I never shy away from healthy, well reasoned discussion. -Nerdarchist Ryan
Well met. And thank you for the quick reply.
The real secret to making a meat grinder game fun is figuring out how to make dying part of that fun. If dying is not the end of the game for a player and in fact includes an element of reward, then it no longer becomes a punishment, but an aspect of the game that can be worked and exploited with skill like any other.
I must make this game.
Good points. We could talked about that a little more. Also trying to make all of the deaths interesting and fun.
- Nerdarchist Dave
Nerdarchy I would be interested in how to run 'guerrilla' combat (ala Shadow-run crossed with Saints Row,) with 5e D&D. How do I go about this? I have a magi-tech campaign world, but have no clue how to go about it... Can you Guys please help?
Hmmm I'm sure could come up with some ideas about guerilla warfare. You are talking about hit and runs, skirmishes, and running battles?
- Nerdarchist Dave
Nerdarchy Yes Please!
I am working on revamping my campaign world of Haven (A Hextech Necromunda) for 5e.
The Party wants to play Saints Row Style; a small non-noble gang that will hit and run on Noble facilities, choosing where and when to ambush and even moving battles (or more likely they stole a Arms Cart/ A noble's Carriage with the Noble hostage).
The Noble Houses/Gangs are officially in a 'peace', but hit-and-runs in between the Noble houses will be a regular thing from disavowed 'splinter cells'.
who does your cool intro art ? and who did the song , should be a vid !
also ted you got to tell me what that shirt is . that is awesome !
You could play as characters that have been cursed to die x number of times or live in eternal torment. Also you could do it league of legends style where you are the same character and you respawn at the start of the dungeon.
Yup I've seen those styles of play implemented in the past.
- Nerdarchist Dave
I've never played a meat grinder. Seems like it would make for a better board game than a "theater of the mind" type rpg.
It works for both. Besides the meat grinder goes back to the beginning when most games I played in were TOM.
- Nerdarchist Dave
If you want to play the videogame version of a meatgrinder, you should try The Legend of Zelda: The Adventure of Link.
It is a platformer kind of Castlevania. This game wants to kill you. The difficulty does not really come from bats knocking you into pits (although it does that), it comes from you slowly running out of health and mana in dungeons with limited refills. As you go deeper into the dungeon, you will inevitable loose life against the strong monsters the game throws at you. Or sometimes you have to use spells to get past an obstacle and waste the mana you need for healing. Sure, there are some flasks of mana hidden in the dungeons, but there is a 50% chance an enemy will spawn instead.
You said "Gygax Style." I was expecting three D6 in order. That's how we used to make characters. Bad rolling will explain how my characters didn't survive. And that was just an average dungeon.
Have you ever been part of a game with a relentlessly reckless player that makes every situation into a meat grinder? Inappropriate targets & timing.
AKA - I attack the city guard or NPC for no reason!
It can be like playing with Groo the Wanderer (Mad Magazine).
Sometimes we do. Last session we had a player say other players hit points our a resource to be expended. It was hilarious.
- Nerdarchist Dave
"You see a large, horned beast. It charges you!"
2:43 i would like to see this meme !
I'm gonna be making a meat grinder isekai. You ever heard of quantum immortality? I showed them my self made table of imagining ourselves but different. Like if you had a felony, if you had a better job, if you were younger, older, were the reverse gender but it's still you but encourages you to think different and have a detachment from the real you. Cause I'll be shocked if anyone survives.
The real game is to see who the smartest player is not the strongest. To the justice league unlimited theme where it's like you have infinite tries to prove to me you don't suck and have to wear the inverted burger king crown like a dunce cap.
I'm pretty sure I'm a player in one of these.
'Take over a small country - by yourself!'
I created a meatgrinder campaign based on the myth of Theseus and Menutauros. It's not a game to be taken seriously, it's a game where your characters are definitely going to die frequently, horribly, and stupidly. I've described it as essentially a roguelike on more than one occasion.
This is a DM 911, and my one part that I'm DMing for has a really bad part comp that I need help with because the PC's that I have a 1 high elf rouge, 1 high elf wizard, 1 trifling Druid, 1 crow rouge, and a warlock. I'm just having trouble not want to kill there characters with some goblins by accident because of there lower HP. In the store that I'm doing is that there helping this paladin get back this holy artifact from these evil cultist that want to corrupt the artifact.
We'll tackle this one.
- Nerdarchist Dave
Ok thanks you it's been troubling me for a while :)
Hi it's been a while I'm just wondering if you guys need any more background info for tackling my problem that I need help with ???
Nicholas Hengstler I think we did the video already and maybe put it up.
- Nerdarchist Dave
Nerdarchy Yeah I haven't seen It yet ???
Meat Grinder... chews up and spits out player characters.
Its actually very easy. Lots of monsters and no mercy.
Dying in a game, or even the odd TPK due to negligence or other reasons, doesn't mean it's a meatgrinder necessarily. Death is a possibility in a good game, at least in my opinion, and it should be up to the player to kill himself via bad decision making, usually.
You are correct. A meat grinder is designed to kill the characters that enter it. Can they survive and win the day, yes. It is just highly unlikely.
- Nerdarchist Dave
lenowin i
Lol.....glory hole.