Correction from mreko: Monk weapons do not include simple ranged weapons. That also means that Stunning Strike does not work with shortbows. It still works with hand crossbows and daggers though.
So because they said simple melee weapon, a monk can't stunning strike with darts, but they can use hand crossbows and daggers to do it?! Am I reading that right? they could have resticted the martial options to melee too! If a monk throws a light hammer I would believe that it can stun me or knock me out! But why a dagger??? blunt end maybe? and I get that its suppose to effect the Ki in the body! but I always Imagined that is because it was a disrupting punch at the nervssystem!? What is the new lore about Discipline?
I've always seen Monk as a Martial equivalent of Warlock. If Monk didn't have a buff like these, I would've picked the College of Dance Bard every time. Let's hope these changes remain through publishing.
The monk is definitely finally getting the 'most improved' treatment it's deserved for a while now. I do like the idea of letting monks use their action to activate any bonus action ability as a means of helping unclog things a little bit. I also am a fan of the idea of if we're not gonna get Extra Attack, maybe giving them Extra Reaction could be something cool at high levels. their level 9 ability is pretty meh imo and I've seen some people comment that it'd be nice to get the extra modes of movement at a much lower level and I think I agree with that. Then that could free up level 9 to be something like "Once per round you can spend 1 ki to make one extra reaction" or something like that, which would allow them to do things like make more AoO or use deflect multiple times for even more durability, and so on. It would also just be something that is very unique to the monk to help them stand out more with more unique abilities. But yeah I do expect the other subclasses to be rewritten with the new monk in mind. I honestly might make a video just on what I would like to see from the 4E monk since I think there's a cool direction they could take with it with elemental stances.
Extra reactions on Monk would be really nice, yeah. Way back when I first started playing D&D I made a monk sub which was all focused around countering, and I gave it a bunch of extra reactions. Having more of those is always nice.
Whats crazy is that the hand monk can use flurry of blows to grapple party members while using step of the wind to move 3 party members a turn. And they still have an action and one more flurry of blows strike.
@@momqabtSomeone didn't pay attention to the specific mention of Open Hand. Open Hand's 11th level feature lets them use step of the wind if they haven't already as part of another bonus action.
@@the_twig131Grappler feat is practically an auto-pickup for the new monk now that it has dex based DC. Between carrying the party to the enemy and carrying the enemy to the party I love this new taxi service monk that actually makes really good use of all its huge speed.
Mercy and Element Monks seem like they’ll be pretty good in 2024. Mercy’s Hand abilities benefit greatly from the buffed Flurry of Blows by allowing them to do what they want to focus on without committing to the attack action first. Adding flexibility to a subclass that was already flexible to begin with is huge. The Element Monk’s increased reach will make them some of the best hit and run attackers in the game. While their damage isn’t particularly impressive the benefit of being mobile along with the base class’s defensive features will make you a pain to take out meaning your damage will be more consistent than a standard melee character who’ll inevitably spend some number of turns dealing 0 damage because they were knocked out.
I would like to have seen monks get one additional Extra attack somewhere in the mid levels. I would also like to have seen Monks be able to use Wis for Persuasion and/or intimidation checks. The social pillar of play is dropped almost completely for Monks so just a small boost there would have been nice.
I think that the Flurry improvement was meant to be instead of an actual Extra Attack improvement.Personally I think it's fine. Reminder that those damage calcs at the end were an absolute worst case scenario with no DP to spend. Having the ability to do some more stuff with their WIS would be good, yeah.
I should say that I feel like all martial should get an extra attack feature not just monk. If you can’t cast spells that can bend the fabric of reality if feel like an extra attack should be valid. Fighters get extra 3 extra attacks so they get to keep that advantage, but I also feel like the fighter identity is shifting.
@@jeremyleyland1047 I feel the exact opposite, but at this point, my vision will never come to pass. I think bloating up the number of attacks is a huge mistake - it makes it a bit harder to balance, and it bogs down the game immensely. Also, it makes the identity of the classes actually worse. The way I see it, attacks should be tied to the weapons you use, not the class (with minor exceptions). For example, a fighter with a huge, 20 ton Maul shouldn't be able to do more hits than a monk with his bare fists, which is currently the case. A monk has to actually spend resources to be able to do the same number of fist attacks as a fighter can with a glaive and a feat. And if the fighter sacrifices a bonus action, he can still do 4 attacks, while the monk can only do 2, 3 if dual wielding and having the mastery for Nick. My solution, and the one we use in my games is the following - all martial classes get 2 attacks, the second coming at level 5. There's no feats that give you consistent extra attacks for free, like Crossbow Expert or Polearm Master. So, with a big weapon, you can only do 2 attacks. If you're dual-wielding, you can do 3, as the additional attack from dual wielding is part of the attack action, not a bonus action. And, finally, the monk - the monk's fists count as light weapons, so he can do 3 attacks at level 5 if he uses fists or light weapons, and, as is in the playtest here, the additional attack from Martial Arts is free, only costing a Bonus Action. So the monk is the only class that can achieve 4 attacks, and only if he uses a Bonus Action. This has helped me, in my homebrew game, to make awesome changes to the classes that actually give them identity. In my game, Battle Master is part of the core class, with a few changes, to offset the lost extra extra attacks. The barbarian is boosted to hit even harder, since it's the simple "I go and bonk hard" class, and the monk is the one that swooshes around the battlefield and ora-ora-oras people to death.
There's something that's always bugged me and some YT videos cover it. All Spellcasters gain more options upon level up. Martials don't. A majority of Spellcasters get Cantrips. Cantrips power up base on Character Level to keep up with Martial Classes, however, Cantrips should level up based on Spellcaster Level. Martial Level SHOULD be a thing, which there aren't any. Weapon Mastery come close to the cool stuff but I mean, how many ways can you swing a sword? Tons! I would suggest liquidating Battlemaster Maneuvers into a Martial-level system. They already have a great list and it's incredibly fun. Maybe add in some fighting game stuff like, low-, mid-, high-, jump-, maim-, dirty- attack. Add in damage-type specific effects similarly like Crusher, Piercer, Slasher. When Spellcasters have 20+ options at their disposal at all times and Martials have Attack, I mean, give them a bone or something.
I saw this somewhere and I still stand by it, monks can spend movement . The Rogue can spend Sneak Attack die for some tactical gain. Barbarian can now spend their advantage for extra damage AND some tactical gain. Something like “When you roll initiative you can enter one stance, you can only have one stance active at a time.” (The following are just guesses as to the balance, mostly because there has never been any mechanic like these.) call them a stance, technique, or whatever. For the next minute you can enter the Debilitating Stance. Your movement is reduced in 1/2 to grant one target creature disadvantage on their next save or ability check. For the next minute you can enter the Shockwave Stance. The first time on a turn when you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, your movement is reduced by 30 feet to deal one extra martial arts dice. For the next minute you can enter the Beguiling Stance. The first time on a turn when you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, your movement is reduced by 15 feet that creature gains the charmed condition. For the next minute you can enter the Terrifying Stance. The first time on a turn you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, your movement is reduced by 20 feet that creature gains the frightened condition.
My ONLY gripe with this Monk is that they don't see any damage boosts from class features between lvl 11-19 outside of maybe from a subclass, which isn't guaranteed, and a bit from Martial Arts Dice. I think the Damage from the Redirected Attack should scale like a Cantrip a bit, 3 dice at 11, and 4 dice at 17, would make it comparable damage to a Toll the Dead, but harder to trigger. I also think more features you have should have a boosted option for DP. Ex: Self-Restoration works for free at the end of your turn, could be nice to spend 1 DP to have it activate at the start of your turn. Or spend 1 DP on Evasion to make the Dex Save with Advantage. I do think giving Stunning Strike a list of 2-3 options instead of just Stunned is amazing
Monk Dena! \o/ We might not have ki, but at least they have gi! I can't say I agree with the monk's defenses being "fixed" until I see the magic equipment they promised for monks, and how prevalent it might be in campaign modules. At current it feels like Monk's defenses keep falling behind and needing to soak up features at multiple levels to catch back up. But other classes can start with good defenses and then just stay good through their career, while getting more features elsewhere. I DO agree that with this update, monk still isn't good compared to the other classes. It would have been good in 2014. It is alright as of 2020+. For OneD&D, I expect the current version of monk will remain the only inhabitant of the lowest tier of performance, if only by a small amount. But these are good changes, and it's definitely closer now. They've got the overhaul they deserved in 2020, and now they just need the same treatment that Rogue and Barbarian have gotten for OneD&D. The changes are exciting and interesting, and monk is starting to feel unique. I hope they get that little extra bit of massaging by way of last-minute buffs (hopefully adding some more utility and/or social encounter or exploration features) or significant magic items that will result in monks growing in power as campaigns progress! I love the idea of monks. I want to want to play a monk!
Yes, magic items for unarmoured defences will be important. The Book of Many Things added handwraps for unarmed strikes, but we do still need some robes or something. I can't say that I have a solid tier list in place yet, but I think that this Monk is probably roughly on par with the Rogue. Fighters and Barbarians are definitely above though.
Maybe I overestimated some of the combination of the Rogue's new Cunning Strike with Phantom Rogue's Wails from the Grave (since it rolls Sneak Attack dice). But thinking on it now, you're probably right. @@the_twig131
The monk needs another feature that cost 1 dp by lv 11 because by tier 3 you can’t spend ur points fast enough for the most part capping at 2 dp per turn for a bonus action and stunning strike. This will make the lv 15 feature useless for the most part if you get short rest every 2 encounters and still have the lv 2 feature. This cause another problem when u have a deadly encounter you can’t use about 1/3 of your dp in combat, deadly encounters usually require a short rest after to recover hp which mean 1/3 of the power was wasted.
I wish they allowed monks multiclassing requirement to be 13 Dex OR wisdom. Fighter can chose btw STR or dex. Why is the monk the hardest to work with. It's not a half caster (and artificer only needs int).
Re how DMs would rule leaving a creature in a wall, elsewhere across the 2014 PHB/MM you have a general rule of 1d10 force damage + if you aren't able to stay there (e.g. being incorporeal), pushed into the nearest unoccupied space. I would be inclined to rule it that way, but something along those lines should definitely be made explicit in the relevant monk feature(s)!
A thought: At level 5 the damage a target takes on a save is them Powering or push through their muscles being locked / Joints be twisted or however you describe the stun. At higher level for an extra DP you can increase the damage or give another condition. The whole purpose of Stunning strike is to impose a condition.
Yes new monk is AWESOME. If it comes outnoike this I'm gonna play it (when i get the chance as a 99% forever DM). But they can't "tank". They can BE on the front line and Survive, but that doesn't mean they can "tank".
Second paragraph first: So I'm actually a big fan of Monk being able to apply a bunch of different conditions. That seems pretty fun to me, and fills the class fantasy of this Jackie Chan style character. To get up to the 10 ft. high jump on an Open Hand, you'd need to have at least 14 STR and a run up. If you're going to be investing like that on a Monk, I'm probably ok with you powerbombing some guys. As for paragraph 1, Elements may be a bit of an issue. That's a lot of damage for literally just moving.
One thing that could've streamlined the monk a little and made it a little more sensible: Martial arts and Unarmored Defense - if your Wisdom contributes to your AC because you can read opponents, why can't it also contribute to your attacks? I think it would've been cool if they'd made it so that you can use Dex, Str OR Wis for your unarmed attacks and monk weapons. That way, you don't have to put it into specific subclasses that you suddenly attack with your Wis, but before that you were attacking with your dex, making a little disconnect between levels 1 and 3. And I'm not sure how broken it would be, if at all. And that way people can define their playstyle how they like.
So in effect it would be equivalent to giving Paladin a free Hexblade dip. Is that overpowerd? Debatable. I don't think that the actual attacks of Monk need much further buffing though, they're pretty good. The main thing that I'd like to see is the ability to put their ability scores elsewhere. Currently you basically need to go at least 16 DEX, 14 CON, 16 WIS, which means that you can't invest in Charisma or whatever to give yourself some tertiary skills.
@@the_twig131 yeah, that's true. I only mean that they can clean it up a little more. The current paradigm of Monk is still a bit suboptimal. This iteration is the best, but still has lots of flaws. I'm just thinking how to clean it up and make it even nicer.
I really hope they make stunning strike daze instead of stun I really do not want to have to design encounters around a random status that massively changes the game.
XP to level 3 homebrews that way. At least they only get one attempt a turn and the condition ends at the start of their next turn so they are not getting advantage (at least from the stun condition) on their next attempt to stun. Stun lock is still possible but a lot less likely than before.
All that I ask is they change the discipline points name into something better. It does not roll off the tongue at all. I suggest focus points, short and sweet.
I'd make a couple of changes to the base Monk, D10 hit die, add the line "You may use your Dex bonus rather than Str for Athletics tests" to Unarmored Movement, and change Stunning Strike so it ALWAYS did the bonus damage and they were Dazed if they succeeded on their save. For the Open Hand replace the level 3 feature with "You may choose 3 Weapon Masteries from the following Vex, Sap, Trip, Push or Cleave to apply to your Unarmed Attacks you may use no more than one on any attack (maybe only one use of each per round?), also replace the level 6 feature with "As an action you may spend up to your PB worth of Hit Die to regain Hit Points adding your WIS bonus to each die".
That Stunning Strike change would never fly. Not only is being able to apply Daze on a successful save stupidly broken, Monk damage is honestly quite high right now, so getting more damage would probably push it's damage past all the other martials.
@@M9Seradon Still DP dependent, at level 11 a fighter with Nick and Two weapon fighting can be doing 4 attacks a round, every round, without using even a bonus action, and applying weapon masteries to them. A Monk could do similar damage, maybe even more, but would run out of DP pretty quickly. As to Daze on a failed save OK how about "The target may not make opportunity attacks until the beginning of your next turn"?
I like the weapon masteries on unarmed strikes for Open Hand. That seems like a good way to address the issue of it kind of feeling a bit redundant, since you would have multiple options which you wouldn't already be able to do. d10 hit die would just be nice. With Stunning Strike, I just wish it was more like Cunning Strike. Give a list of options rather than just stun.
@killcat1971 you realize that at level 5 a Monk with the feat that grants Weapon Mastery does the exact same right? Four resource free attacks with Nick all at 1d8+dex. Then if they choose to they can burn 1 DP to outhit the Fighter with Flurry of Blows a whopping 10 times before needing a Short Rest. At level 10, you not only get an additional attack from FoB but you can keep it up 20 times before SR. And sure some Fighters builds are going to be able keep up or even outpace but it either requires the Fighter to also burn resources (which the Monk possesses more of), or abuse weapon juggling.
@@M9Seradon That requires a feat, that's a significant investment, so what can a fighter get with the same feat? Which they get more of. Now that being said I DO think that Fighters need more love, I'd personally give the battle master chassis to ALL fighters, and come up with some better subclasses.
i'm curious what else you would add to make it more than "ok" i saw someone suggest giving them the same amount of asi's as fighters and just giving them the d10 hit die. other than that, i feel like this monk is now one of the best martials?
At least one extra ASI would help, more multiclassing ability (currently they don't get all that much other than from dipping for a mastery or maybe a 1st or 2nd level spell), fix up the BA clog (they could also do this by bringing in a blanket rule saying that you can spend an action on anything tagged as a bonus action as well), and to do something else with Stunning Strike. Honestly, I just don't want it to stun. I really like the Cunning Strike/Brutal Strike features. Do something like that.
Not sure if I'm missing something, but I think that on a Monk specifically, dagger looks equivalent in most scenarios, except that you can also throw it. Remember that they both have the same damage die thanks to Martial Arts.
Rogues get Martial weapons with the finesse property and Monks get Martial weapons with the light property and the scimitar and short sword have both of those properties. Scimitar has nick and Short sword has Vex. I don't think we are going to see any martial characters with daggers ever.
The main benefit to daggers is that you can throw them. That has huge impact for weapon juggling. Rogues don't really care about juggling that much though since they only have the one attack plus another from Nick.
@@the_twig131 Weapon juggling is quite easy in this playtest because you can stow or draw a weapon as part of any attack. Assuming your daggers are already drawn you can dagger stab, stow, nick stab, stow, then BA FoB and you still have your extra attack. If your daggers are sheathed then being able to throw them would impart a massive benefit especially if you want to attack with your fists later. I don't even know why I typed all that because you obviously know.
I think the monk is far from passable - its probably better than the barbarian and rogue and competing with the figther for the best martial class now. In fact, I think that monks might be the highest damage martial class (assuming 2 DP spent per round).
I think it's probably on par with Rogue, but not Barbarian and Fighter. They got big stuff in the playtest which push them much higher than they were in 2014. This Monk is probably as good as the 2014 classes, but not the 2024 classes.
@@the_twig131 you are underestimating this monk, I have seen the damage calculations and this monk is equal to the other 2024 classes in terms of dpr, it's also better than fighter and rogue at tanking by far
You made some good points about the defenses! I love playing dwarves! And with Dwarven Fortitude feat, this UAs Monk taking the Dodge + Bonus Attack is much beter! the only (tiny)problem I have with the feat is that I would like it to give the option to choose an increase in either Wisdom or Constitution! I'm relativly ok with this monk! Just take away the stunning strike from ranged attacks and give that ability to the Kensei monk instead! it feels like it should be limited to the Kensei! Also some of these abilities makes the Drunken Master feel less important to grab(not that it felt good befor)! What do you think?
Yeah, Dwarven Fortitude Monk sounds cool. Get it on a Hill Dwarf to increase your HP by an extra point every level as well. All of the 4th level feats are now half feats (unless they decide to go back on that, we haven't seen most feats since playtest 2), so I think that you'd be perfectly able to ask your DM to let you bump a stat with it. I must say that I am not going to get protective of the Drunken Master. I'd rather all other monks got better than to fall back so we don't step on the toes of one not very good subclass.
@@the_twig131 I can get behind the Idea that the Dunken Master is just a Roleplay aspect and doesn't have to be a subclass! In my comments in the Monk survey, I said that: I would like the Drunken master features be mixed into the main class features! and I think they got closer to that in this UA! Good job WOTC! If a player decides to play an Elemental monk as a Drunkerd, I'm completely fine with that! But the ranged stunning strike with hand crossbows feels like they are treading on the Kensei! IMO! Mostly cause I feel that the ranged Monk subclass is the Kensei's thing and I would like to se more people play it too! I would like it if the stunning at range could be the level 11 feature of the kensei! Lets a ranged subclasses ranged attacks be able to stunnig strike! IMO that would let the kensei get a real cool ability at that level!
Can someone explain the reasoning behind the resourceless damage calculation allowing the warlock to use hex? I would consider the spellslot a resource cost but maybe I'm wrong
So that is just the most commonly used baseline damage. It's something that can be achieved on any build in the game by simply dipping one level of Warlock and maxing out Charisma. It does use a resource, but it's not the focus of the graph, it's a comparator, and simply one that a lot of people are familiar with.
@the_twig131 I understand it's not a crazy number to beat (it's pretty easy) but I just find the point of resourceless damage to be a little misleading if you compare it to something that is using a resource to add 3.5 dmg per beam to every attack when you could compare it just as easily with a wizards firebolt or just the base fighter and get similar-ish damage calculations without any resources. Fighters with a halberd are dealing an average of 8.5 dmg per attack and wizards at lvl 1 can muster 5.5 with Firebolt or upwards of 6.5 on an injured enemy with Toll The Dead.
Because hex can last through multiple combats for one first level slot that restored on short rest. If used as 3rd level spell, hex can last through whole adventuring day for same one short rest resource. Also, this damage calculations are mostly not about fully resourceless damage, but sustained damage. Unlike nova damage, that is damage calculation for one turn damage with every resource you can use to deal more damage, sustained damage is about longevity - depends on who you ask it can be one or more full combats worth of rounds.
It's a playtest rule, yes. See "Unarmed Strike" on page 30 of this document. It's been in the 1DD/UA2023 playtests for a few iterations, with the change here being that monks can now use dexterity instead of strength.
@@the_twig131 Wow other none homebrew mechanics have ever synergized with the monk before crazy. I figured I had to be reading something wrong. Whole new world.
Oooo yea! Like leaden blow once per turn when you hit a creature you can push that creature 5’ Or blinding strikes once per turn when you hit a creature you can give that creature the blinded condition until the start of your next turn.
Suggestion forces a creature to follow you suggestion, so you can't cast suggestion on a creature to make it a “willing creatue”, at least not if i’m the DM.
Suggestion as a whole is a DM dependent spell. I'd allow it to become a willing creature at my table, but that doesn't mean that you have to. As long as you're fair to the players, use whatever rulings you want.
@@kennyostrom3098 I would allow some trickery, because it makes good roleplay. My interpretation is that the creature do it of their free will, so not forced.
Monk being good grapplers might actually be a bit toxic especially elements monk being able to reach grapple then fly up 60 feet then fall. 6d6 damage and the prone condition for your movement and reaction to mitigate your fall damage i would say might be worth it. A single dash makes that damage 12d6. This would also combo with the jump and long strider spells. So now all of a sudden monks grapple turns into a pretty nasty save or suck. Also can we mention an open hand monk with grappler can now stunning strike, topple, and grapple with one flurry of blows attack? Thats three separate saves for hitting once. And all of them are pretty detrimental to fail. Grappling could also just be pre-prone because of double jump distance from step of the wind possibly allowing you to just jump up high enough to take fall damage.
Second comment first: I'm actually fine with Monk being able to do multiple conditions with the same attack, because many of the effects are redundant. Who cares if they're prone if you stunned them. As for jumping, You'd need at least 14 STR, even with your doubled jumps, which is a significant investment for a Monk. If you're doing that, I'm probably ok with you powerbombing some guys. In the first paragraph, Elements might be an issue. That's a significant amount of damage for just moving.
Still ain't watchin' because D&D, still likin' and commentin' hopin' that when Twig runs out of D&D to discuss algorhythm'll push whatever comes out next.
No promises because I don't really work that far ahead, but I think that after this playtest and a video on Locate Object, I might make a video about Fabula Ultima.
@@the_twig131 I was literally just sitting here going "this is great, but I've mostly moved on from D&D to Fabula", really excited to hear your thoughts on it!!
I saw this somewhere and I still stand by it, monks can spend movement . The Rogue can spend Sneak Attack die for some tactical gain. Barbarian can now spend their advantage for extra damage AND some tactical gain. Something like “When you roll initiative you can enter one stance, you can only have one stance active at a time.” (The following are just guesses as to the balance, mostly because there has never been any mechanic like these.) call them a stance, technique, or whatever. For the next minute you can enter the Debilitating Stance. You can forgo 1/2 your movement to grant one target creature disadvantage on their next save or ability check. For the next minute you can enter the Shockwave Stance. The first time on a turn you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, you can forgo 20 feet of your movement to deal one extra martial arts dice. For the next minute you can enter the Shockwave Stance. The first time on a turn you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, you can add one martial arts dice. For the next minute you can enter the Beguiling Stance. The first time on a turn you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, you can grant that creature the charmed status. For the next minute you can enter the Terrifying Stance. The first time on a turn you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, you can grant that creature the frightened status.
Correction from mreko:
Monk weapons do not include simple ranged weapons. That also means that Stunning Strike does not work with shortbows. It still works with hand crossbows and daggers though.
This makes me suspect that the inclusion of hand crossbows as a monk weapon was an oversight, and will likely be corrected when the new PHB comes out.
I wish Blowguns were Monk Weapons.
How else am I supposed to make an Oxyotl build?
@@DemonicEngineerthe same way you can make a Vlad build: you don't😭🤣
So because they said simple melee weapon, a monk can't stunning strike with darts, but they can use hand crossbows and daggers to do it?! Am I reading that right?
they could have resticted the martial options to melee too!
If a monk throws a light hammer I would believe that it can stun me or knock me out! But why a dagger??? blunt end maybe? and I get that its suppose to effect the Ki in the body! but I always Imagined that is because it was a disrupting punch at the nervssystem!? What is the new lore about Discipline?
@@zoddlanderstun works by hitting accupressure/accupuncture points with a big zap of ki.
Step of the wind upgrade at level 10:
"I'm holding the back of your neck so you don't get whiplash"
"What?"
"Whip. Lash."
I've always seen Monk as a Martial equivalent of Warlock. If Monk didn't have a buff like these, I would've picked the College of Dance Bard every time. Let's hope these changes remain through publishing.
The monk is definitely finally getting the 'most improved' treatment it's deserved for a while now. I do like the idea of letting monks use their action to activate any bonus action ability as a means of helping unclog things a little bit. I also am a fan of the idea of if we're not gonna get Extra Attack, maybe giving them Extra Reaction could be something cool at high levels. their level 9 ability is pretty meh imo and I've seen some people comment that it'd be nice to get the extra modes of movement at a much lower level and I think I agree with that. Then that could free up level 9 to be something like "Once per round you can spend 1 ki to make one extra reaction" or something like that, which would allow them to do things like make more AoO or use deflect multiple times for even more durability, and so on. It would also just be something that is very unique to the monk to help them stand out more with more unique abilities.
But yeah I do expect the other subclasses to be rewritten with the new monk in mind. I honestly might make a video just on what I would like to see from the 4E monk since I think there's a cool direction they could take with it with elemental stances.
Extra reactions on Monk would be really nice, yeah. Way back when I first started playing D&D I made a monk sub which was all focused around countering, and I gave it a bunch of extra reactions. Having more of those is always nice.
They've done it. They've completed my fantasy for the Monk. they've effectively made it a Dodge Tank!!!
Whats crazy is that the hand monk can use flurry of blows to grapple party members while using step of the wind to move 3 party members a turn. And they still have an action and one more flurry of blows strike.
This is true. You'll have to spend double movement unless you have the Grappler feat, but that's still pretty cool.
@@the_twig131true, but the monk has plenty of speed either way.
Illegal, can't use step of the wind if you use FoB and vice versa.
You only get one bonus action.
@@momqabtSomeone didn't pay attention to the specific mention of Open Hand.
Open Hand's 11th level feature lets them use step of the wind if they haven't already as part of another bonus action.
@@the_twig131Grappler feat is practically an auto-pickup for the new monk now that it has dex based DC.
Between carrying the party to the enemy and carrying the enemy to the party I love this new taxi service monk that actually makes really good use of all its huge speed.
Mercy and Element Monks seem like they’ll be pretty good in 2024. Mercy’s Hand abilities benefit greatly from the buffed Flurry of Blows by allowing them to do what they want to focus on without committing to the attack action first. Adding flexibility to a subclass that was already flexible to begin with is huge. The Element Monk’s increased reach will make them some of the best hit and run attackers in the game. While their damage isn’t particularly impressive the benefit of being mobile along with the base class’s defensive features will make you a pain to take out meaning your damage will be more consistent than a standard melee character who’ll inevitably spend some number of turns dealing 0 damage because they were knocked out.
Yeah, both of them are looking solid. Shadows is too. I think it's only really Hand which still needs a bit more.
What is interesting about the update to step of the wind is that you can just choose a grappled creature and take them out of range.
I would like to have seen monks get one additional Extra attack somewhere in the mid levels.
I would also like to have seen Monks be able to use Wis for Persuasion and/or intimidation checks. The social pillar of play is dropped almost completely for Monks so just a small boost there would have been nice.
I think that the Flurry improvement was meant to be instead of an actual Extra Attack improvement.Personally I think it's fine. Reminder that those damage calcs at the end were an absolute worst case scenario with no DP to spend.
Having the ability to do some more stuff with their WIS would be good, yeah.
Technically, Flurry of Blows gain an additional hit.
I should say that I feel like all martial should get an extra attack feature not just monk. If you can’t cast spells that can bend the fabric of reality if feel like an extra attack should be valid. Fighters get extra 3 extra attacks so they get to keep that advantage, but I also feel like the fighter identity is shifting.
@@jeremyleyland1047 I feel the exact opposite, but at this point, my vision will never come to pass. I think bloating up the number of attacks is a huge mistake - it makes it a bit harder to balance, and it bogs down the game immensely. Also, it makes the identity of the classes actually worse.
The way I see it, attacks should be tied to the weapons you use, not the class (with minor exceptions). For example, a fighter with a huge, 20 ton Maul shouldn't be able to do more hits than a monk with his bare fists, which is currently the case. A monk has to actually spend resources to be able to do the same number of fist attacks as a fighter can with a glaive and a feat. And if the fighter sacrifices a bonus action, he can still do 4 attacks, while the monk can only do 2, 3 if dual wielding and having the mastery for Nick.
My solution, and the one we use in my games is the following - all martial classes get 2 attacks, the second coming at level 5. There's no feats that give you consistent extra attacks for free, like Crossbow Expert or Polearm Master. So, with a big weapon, you can only do 2 attacks. If you're dual-wielding, you can do 3, as the additional attack from dual wielding is part of the attack action, not a bonus action. And, finally, the monk - the monk's fists count as light weapons, so he can do 3 attacks at level 5 if he uses fists or light weapons, and, as is in the playtest here, the additional attack from Martial Arts is free, only costing a Bonus Action. So the monk is the only class that can achieve 4 attacks, and only if he uses a Bonus Action.
This has helped me, in my homebrew game, to make awesome changes to the classes that actually give them identity. In my game, Battle Master is part of the core class, with a few changes, to offset the lost extra extra attacks. The barbarian is boosted to hit even harder, since it's the simple "I go and bonk hard" class, and the monk is the one that swooshes around the battlefield and ora-ora-oras people to death.
There's something that's always bugged me and some YT videos cover it.
All Spellcasters gain more options upon level up. Martials don't. A majority of Spellcasters get Cantrips. Cantrips power up base on Character Level to keep up with Martial Classes, however, Cantrips should level up based on Spellcaster Level. Martial Level SHOULD be a thing, which there aren't any. Weapon Mastery come close to the cool stuff but I mean, how many ways can you swing a sword? Tons!
I would suggest liquidating Battlemaster Maneuvers into a Martial-level system. They already have a great list and it's incredibly fun. Maybe add in some fighting game stuff like, low-, mid-, high-, jump-, maim-, dirty- attack. Add in damage-type specific effects similarly like Crusher, Piercer, Slasher.
When Spellcasters have 20+ options at their disposal at all times and Martials have Attack, I mean, give them a bone or something.
I can’t wait to make a goblin open hand monk and dash dash dash
What about Tabaxi Rogue 2 Hand 11 Fighter 2? Then you can 4x dash and double your speed.
@@the_twig131 Add boots of speed, haste, renamed Mobile, Longstrider and suddenly we're lapping everything.
Add Ashardalon's Stride and you could set fire to an entire city.
I saw this somewhere and I still stand by it, monks can spend movement . The Rogue can spend Sneak Attack die for some tactical gain. Barbarian can now spend their advantage for extra damage AND some tactical gain.
Something like “When you roll initiative you can enter one stance, you can only have one stance active at a time.” (The following are just guesses as to the balance, mostly because there has never been any mechanic like these.) call them a stance, technique, or whatever.
For the next minute you can enter the Debilitating Stance. Your movement is reduced in 1/2 to grant one target creature disadvantage on their next save or ability check.
For the next minute you can enter the Shockwave Stance. The first time on a turn when you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, your movement is reduced by 30 feet to deal one extra martial arts dice.
For the next minute you can enter the Beguiling Stance. The first time on a turn when you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, your movement is reduced by 15 feet that creature gains the charmed condition.
For the next minute you can enter the Terrifying Stance. The first time on a turn you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, your movement is reduced by 20 feet that creature gains the frightened condition.
It's like every new playtest is the best playtest
My ONLY gripe with this Monk is that they don't see any damage boosts from class features between lvl 11-19 outside of maybe from a subclass, which isn't guaranteed, and a bit from Martial Arts Dice.
I think the Damage from the Redirected Attack should scale like a Cantrip a bit, 3 dice at 11, and 4 dice at 17, would make it comparable damage to a Toll the Dead, but harder to trigger.
I also think more features you have should have a boosted option for DP. Ex: Self-Restoration works for free at the end of your turn, could be nice to spend 1 DP to have it activate at the start of your turn. Or spend 1 DP on Evasion to make the Dex Save with Advantage.
I do think giving Stunning Strike a list of 2-3 options instead of just Stunned is amazing
Monk Dena! \o/ We might not have ki, but at least they have gi!
I can't say I agree with the monk's defenses being "fixed" until I see the magic equipment they promised for monks, and how prevalent it might be in campaign modules. At current it feels like Monk's defenses keep falling behind and needing to soak up features at multiple levels to catch back up. But other classes can start with good defenses and then just stay good through their career, while getting more features elsewhere.
I DO agree that with this update, monk still isn't good compared to the other classes. It would have been good in 2014. It is alright as of 2020+. For OneD&D, I expect the current version of monk will remain the only inhabitant of the lowest tier of performance, if only by a small amount. But these are good changes, and it's definitely closer now. They've got the overhaul they deserved in 2020, and now they just need the same treatment that Rogue and Barbarian have gotten for OneD&D. The changes are exciting and interesting, and monk is starting to feel unique. I hope they get that little extra bit of massaging by way of last-minute buffs (hopefully adding some more utility and/or social encounter or exploration features) or significant magic items that will result in monks growing in power as campaigns progress!
I love the idea of monks. I want to want to play a monk!
Yes, magic items for unarmoured defences will be important. The Book of Many Things added handwraps for unarmed strikes, but we do still need some robes or something.
I can't say that I have a solid tier list in place yet, but I think that this Monk is probably roughly on par with the Rogue. Fighters and Barbarians are definitely above though.
Maybe I overestimated some of the combination of the Rogue's new Cunning Strike with Phantom Rogue's Wails from the Grave (since it rolls Sneak Attack dice). But thinking on it now, you're probably right. @@the_twig131
The monk needs another feature that cost 1 dp by lv 11 because by tier 3 you can’t spend ur points fast enough for the most part capping at 2 dp per turn for a bonus action and stunning strike. This will make the lv 15 feature useless for the most part if you get short rest every 2 encounters and still have the lv 2 feature. This cause another problem when u have a deadly encounter you can’t use about 1/3 of your dp in combat, deadly encounters usually require a short rest after to recover hp which mean 1/3 of the power was wasted.
I wish they allowed monks multiclassing requirement to be 13 Dex OR wisdom. Fighter can chose btw STR or dex. Why is the monk the hardest to work with. It's not a half caster (and artificer only needs int).
Yeah, that would actually go a long way.
Re how DMs would rule leaving a creature in a wall, elsewhere across the 2014 PHB/MM you have a general rule of 1d10 force damage + if you aren't able to stay there (e.g. being incorporeal), pushed into the nearest unoccupied space. I would be inclined to rule it that way, but something along those lines should definitely be made explicit in the relevant monk feature(s)!
Something like this is what I would probably do as well.
A thought: At level 5 the damage a target takes on a save is them Powering or push through their muscles being locked / Joints be twisted or however you describe the stun. At higher level for an extra DP you can increase the damage or give another condition. The whole purpose of Stunning strike is to impose a condition.
Yes new monk is AWESOME. If it comes outnoike this I'm gonna play it (when i get the chance as a 99% forever DM).
But they can't "tank". They can BE on the front line and Survive, but that doesn't mean they can "tank".
Second paragraph first: So I'm actually a big fan of Monk being able to apply a bunch of different conditions. That seems pretty fun to me, and fills the class fantasy of this Jackie Chan style character. To get up to the 10 ft. high jump on an Open Hand, you'd need to have at least 14 STR and a run up. If you're going to be investing like that on a Monk, I'm probably ok with you powerbombing some guys.
As for paragraph 1, Elements may be a bit of an issue. That's a lot of damage for literally just moving.
One thing that could've streamlined the monk a little and made it a little more sensible:
Martial arts and Unarmored Defense - if your Wisdom contributes to your AC because you can read opponents, why can't it also contribute to your attacks? I think it would've been cool if they'd made it so that you can use Dex, Str OR Wis for your unarmed attacks and monk weapons. That way, you don't have to put it into specific subclasses that you suddenly attack with your Wis, but before that you were attacking with your dex, making a little disconnect between levels 1 and 3. And I'm not sure how broken it would be, if at all. And that way people can define their playstyle how they like.
So in effect it would be equivalent to giving Paladin a free Hexblade dip. Is that overpowerd? Debatable. I don't think that the actual attacks of Monk need much further buffing though, they're pretty good. The main thing that I'd like to see is the ability to put their ability scores elsewhere. Currently you basically need to go at least 16 DEX, 14 CON, 16 WIS, which means that you can't invest in Charisma or whatever to give yourself some tertiary skills.
@@the_twig131 yeah, that's true. I only mean that they can clean it up a little more. The current paradigm of Monk is still a bit suboptimal. This iteration is the best, but still has lots of flaws. I'm just thinking how to clean it up and make it even nicer.
I really hope they make stunning strike daze instead of stun I really do not want to have to design encounters around a random status that massively changes the game.
Yeah, I don't like Stunning Strike actually stunning. As I said in the video, I really wanted something less powerful but more consistent.
XP to level 3 homebrews that way. At least they only get one attempt a turn and the condition ends at the start of their next turn so they are not getting advantage (at least from the stun condition) on their next attempt to stun. Stun lock is still possible but a lot less likely than before.
All that I ask is they change the discipline points name into something better. It does not roll off the tongue at all. I suggest focus points, short and sweet.
It does sound a bit crap, yeah.
Welp time to drop what I’m doing and watch this
I'd make a couple of changes to the base Monk, D10 hit die, add the line "You may use your Dex bonus rather than Str for Athletics tests" to Unarmored Movement, and change Stunning Strike so it ALWAYS did the bonus damage and they were Dazed if they succeeded on their save. For the Open Hand replace the level 3 feature with "You may choose 3 Weapon Masteries from the following Vex, Sap, Trip, Push or Cleave to apply to your Unarmed Attacks you may use no more than one on any attack (maybe only one use of each per round?), also replace the level 6 feature with "As an action you may spend up to your PB worth of Hit Die to regain Hit Points adding your WIS bonus to each die".
That Stunning Strike change would never fly. Not only is being able to apply Daze on a successful save stupidly broken, Monk damage is honestly quite high right now, so getting more damage would probably push it's damage past all the other martials.
@@M9Seradon Still DP dependent, at level 11 a fighter with Nick and Two weapon fighting can be doing 4 attacks a round, every round, without using even a bonus action, and applying weapon masteries to them. A Monk could do similar damage, maybe even more, but would run out of DP pretty quickly. As to Daze on a failed save OK how about "The target may not make opportunity attacks until the beginning of your next turn"?
I like the weapon masteries on unarmed strikes for Open Hand. That seems like a good way to address the issue of it kind of feeling a bit redundant, since you would have multiple options which you wouldn't already be able to do.
d10 hit die would just be nice.
With Stunning Strike, I just wish it was more like Cunning Strike. Give a list of options rather than just stun.
@killcat1971 you realize that at level 5 a Monk with the feat that grants Weapon Mastery does the exact same right? Four resource free attacks with Nick all at 1d8+dex. Then if they choose to they can burn 1 DP to outhit the Fighter with Flurry of Blows a whopping 10 times before needing a Short Rest. At level 10, you not only get an additional attack from FoB but you can keep it up 20 times before SR. And sure some Fighters builds are going to be able keep up or even outpace but it either requires the Fighter to also burn resources (which the Monk possesses more of), or abuse weapon juggling.
@@M9Seradon That requires a feat, that's a significant investment, so what can a fighter get with the same feat? Which they get more of. Now that being said I DO think that Fighters need more love, I'd personally give the battle master chassis to ALL fighters, and come up with some better subclasses.
i'm curious what else you would add to make it more than "ok" i saw someone suggest giving them the same amount of asi's as fighters and just giving them the d10 hit die. other than that, i feel like this monk is now one of the best martials?
At least one extra ASI would help, more multiclassing ability (currently they don't get all that much other than from dipping for a mastery or maybe a 1st or 2nd level spell), fix up the BA clog (they could also do this by bringing in a blanket rule saying that you can spend an action on anything tagged as a bonus action as well), and to do something else with Stunning Strike. Honestly, I just don't want it to stun. I really like the Cunning Strike/Brutal Strike features. Do something like that.
Now i imagine monks carring their partners like a baby all the way up a hill.
Regarding stun immune enemies, they can't actually fail the throw save as RAW they auto succeed the save.
The only reason to not take the scimitar over the dagger for your nick weapon is if you somehow don't have martial weapon proficiency.
Not sure if I'm missing something, but I think that on a Monk specifically, dagger looks equivalent in most scenarios, except that you can also throw it. Remember that they both have the same damage die thanks to Martial Arts.
@@the_twig131 How did I forget about MA? D'oh.
Daggers have improved, but with the changes to the rogues weapon proficiencies you won't see any rogues that use them :(
Rogues get Martial weapons with the finesse property and Monks get Martial weapons with the light property and the scimitar and short sword have both of those properties. Scimitar has nick and Short sword has Vex. I don't think we are going to see any martial characters with daggers ever.
The main benefit to daggers is that you can throw them. That has huge impact for weapon juggling. Rogues don't really care about juggling that much though since they only have the one attack plus another from Nick.
@@the_twig131 Weapon juggling is quite easy in this playtest because you can stow or draw a weapon as part of any attack. Assuming your daggers are already drawn you can dagger stab, stow, nick stab, stow, then BA FoB and you still have your extra attack. If your daggers are sheathed then being able to throw them would impart a massive benefit especially if you want to attack with your fists later. I don't even know why I typed all that because you obviously know.
Now monks get the D....points instead of Ki points.
I think the monk is far from passable - its probably better than the barbarian and rogue and competing with the figther for the best martial class now. In fact, I think that monks might be the highest damage martial class (assuming 2 DP spent per round).
I think it's probably on par with Rogue, but not Barbarian and Fighter. They got big stuff in the playtest which push them much higher than they were in 2014. This Monk is probably as good as the 2014 classes, but not the 2024 classes.
@@the_twig131 you are underestimating this monk, I have seen the damage calculations and this monk is equal to the other 2024 classes in terms of dpr, it's also better than fighter and rogue at tanking by far
You made some good points about the defenses!
I love playing dwarves! And with Dwarven Fortitude feat, this UAs Monk taking the Dodge + Bonus Attack is much beter! the only (tiny)problem I have with the feat is that I would like it to give the option to choose an increase in either Wisdom or Constitution!
I'm relativly ok with this monk! Just take away the stunning strike from ranged attacks and give that ability to the Kensei monk instead! it feels like it should be limited to the Kensei!
Also some of these abilities makes the Drunken Master feel less important to grab(not that it felt good befor)! What do you think?
Yeah, Dwarven Fortitude Monk sounds cool. Get it on a Hill Dwarf to increase your HP by an extra point every level as well. All of the 4th level feats are now half feats (unless they decide to go back on that, we haven't seen most feats since playtest 2), so I think that you'd be perfectly able to ask your DM to let you bump a stat with it.
I must say that I am not going to get protective of the Drunken Master. I'd rather all other monks got better than to fall back so we don't step on the toes of one not very good subclass.
@@the_twig131
I can get behind the Idea that the Dunken Master is just a Roleplay aspect and doesn't have to be a subclass!
In my comments in the Monk survey, I said that: I would like the Drunken master features be mixed into the main class features! and I think they got closer to that in this UA! Good job WOTC!
If a player decides to play an Elemental monk as a Drunkerd, I'm completely fine with that!
But the ranged stunning strike with hand crossbows feels like they are treading on the Kensei! IMO!
Mostly cause I feel that the ranged Monk subclass is the Kensei's thing and I would like to se more people play it too!
I would like it if the stunning at range could be the level 11 feature of the kensei! Lets a ranged subclasses ranged attacks be able to stunnig strike!
IMO that would let the kensei get a real cool ability at that level!
Can someone explain the reasoning behind the resourceless damage calculation allowing the warlock to use hex? I would consider the spellslot a resource cost but maybe I'm wrong
So that is just the most commonly used baseline damage. It's something that can be achieved on any build in the game by simply dipping one level of Warlock and maxing out Charisma. It does use a resource, but it's not the focus of the graph, it's a comparator, and simply one that a lot of people are familiar with.
@the_twig131 I understand it's not a crazy number to beat (it's pretty easy) but I just find the point of resourceless damage to be a little misleading if you compare it to something that is using a resource to add 3.5 dmg per beam to every attack when you could compare it just as easily with a wizards firebolt or just the base fighter and get similar-ish damage calculations without any resources. Fighters with a halberd are dealing an average of 8.5 dmg per attack and wizards at lvl 1 can muster 5.5 with Firebolt or upwards of 6.5 on an injured enemy with Toll The Dead.
Because hex can last through multiple combats for one first level slot that restored on short rest. If used as 3rd level spell, hex can last through whole adventuring day for same one short rest resource.
Also, this damage calculations are mostly not about fully resourceless damage, but sustained damage. Unlike nova damage, that is damage calculation for one turn damage with every resource you can use to deal more damage, sustained damage is about longevity - depends on who you ask it can be one or more full combats worth of rounds.
Are you sure you can replace a bonus action Unarmed Strike with a Grapple or Shove?
The rules are very clear, any unarmed attack can be.
Yes. Any unarmed strike can now become a grapple or shove.
It's a playtest rule, yes. See "Unarmed Strike" on page 30 of this document. It's been in the 1DD/UA2023 playtests for a few iterations, with the change here being that monks can now use dexterity instead of strength.
Improved dash SHOULD work with step of the wind correct!??!!
Yes, because a part of Step of the Wind is that you're taking the Dash Action. You definitely get the bonus movement from Charger and stuff.
@@the_twig131 Wow other none homebrew mechanics have ever synergized with the monk before crazy. I figured I had to be reading something wrong. Whole new world.
I wiah Stunning Strike was only one option and there was some more unique strikes
Oooo yea!
Like leaden blow once per turn when you hit a creature you can push that creature 5’
Or blinding strikes once per turn when you hit a creature you can give that creature the blinded condition until the start of your next turn.
Yeah, I was really hoping for a Cunning Strike style feature.
Suggestion forces a creature to follow you suggestion, so you can't cast suggestion on a creature to make it a “willing creatue”, at least not if i’m the DM.
Suggestion as a whole is a DM dependent spell. I'd allow it to become a willing creature at my table, but that doesn't mean that you have to. As long as you're fair to the players, use whatever rulings you want.
Any use of trickery or compulsion should not count as "willing" and treating it otherwise is extremely difficult moral territory.
@@kennyostrom3098 I would allow some trickery, because it makes good roleplay. My interpretation is that the creature do it of their free will, so not forced.
@@the_twig131 Sure, everyone can play the game the way they want to, the most important thing is that we have fun the way each of us play.
Hey Twig
Hello.
Monk being good grapplers might actually be a bit toxic especially elements monk being able to reach grapple then fly up 60 feet then fall. 6d6 damage and the prone condition for your movement and reaction to mitigate your fall damage i would say might be worth it. A single dash makes that damage 12d6. This would also combo with the jump and long strider spells. So now all of a sudden monks grapple turns into a pretty nasty save or suck.
Also can we mention an open hand monk with grappler can now stunning strike, topple, and grapple with one flurry of blows attack? Thats three separate saves for hitting once. And all of them are pretty detrimental to fail. Grappling could also just be pre-prone because of double jump distance from step of the wind possibly allowing you to just jump up high enough to take fall damage.
Second comment first: I'm actually fine with Monk being able to do multiple conditions with the same attack, because many of the effects are redundant. Who cares if they're prone if you stunned them. As for jumping, You'd need at least 14 STR, even with your doubled jumps, which is a significant investment for a Monk. If you're doing that, I'm probably ok with you powerbombing some guys.
In the first paragraph, Elements might be an issue. That's a significant amount of damage for just moving.
Still ain't watchin' because D&D, still likin' and commentin' hopin' that when Twig runs out of D&D to discuss algorhythm'll push whatever comes out next.
No promises because I don't really work that far ahead, but I think that after this playtest and a video on Locate Object, I might make a video about Fabula Ultima.
@@the_twig131 I was literally just sitting here going "this is great, but I've mostly moved on from D&D to Fabula", really excited to hear your thoughts on it!!
Now if only Monk was good
I saw this somewhere and I still stand by it, monks can spend movement . The Rogue can spend Sneak Attack die for some tactical gain. Barbarian can now spend their advantage for extra damage AND some tactical gain.
Something like “When you roll initiative you can enter one stance, you can only have one stance active at a time.” (The following are just guesses as to the balance, mostly because there has never been any mechanic like these.) call them a stance, technique, or whatever.
For the next minute you can enter the Debilitating Stance. You can forgo 1/2 your movement to grant one target creature disadvantage on their next save or ability check.
For the next minute you can enter the Shockwave Stance. The first time on a turn you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, you can forgo 20 feet of your movement to deal one extra martial arts dice.
For the next minute you can enter the Shockwave Stance. The first time on a turn you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, you can add one martial arts dice.
For the next minute you can enter the Beguiling Stance. The first time on a turn you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, you can grant that creature the charmed status.
For the next minute you can enter the Terrifying Stance. The first time on a turn you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, you can grant that creature the frightened status.
Not sure if tuning movement into damage is a great idea, but something along these lines would be good.