This is one of my issues with Christian media recently. I'm older now and able to better understand what was in the Bible a lot more and the stories in there are dark and gritty, but when I was in church, the stories were sanitized and watered down so much that it wouldn't scare the faint hearted congregation. Even the depictions of the people in Christ's time looked clean and well nourished when the reality was a brutal existence. We need some real Christian stories being told in the same vein of Sin City.
It's one of the things that we need to know that all the sh*t that went down in Sodom and how the Tower of Babel came to be are well under way to repeating itself in the modern age. No sugarcoating it at all.
@@vastolordes35 I completely second this. Amazing Christian Art but with a genuine story. Watch it as Season 1, 2 Defenders, Season 3. Then watch The Punisher because it is awesome. However they are including Daredevil in the Attorney at law series so he may just be ruined as a character soon. @#£%!!!!
It's a film I saw when it came out, I remember it as being a film that didn't play games, the killer was a killer, and not treated as a victim, the nun was a good, but nowhere near perfect, person. For me it said the death penalty is wrong even for those who deserve it. I didn't agree but respected the arguments it made.
I know what they were pushing for, but I don't think the killer would have come to repentance except for facing his own death. I saw it as a positive as it showed the man the value of life he took by facing the loss of his own.
@@chrisazure1624 I agree about the killer only repenting because of her pushing. One problem today is that we are too fast too forgive, and don't push repentance first.
Having the death penalty acknowledges that there are crimes so depraved, so cruel, and so callous that only the death penalty is an appropriate punishment. Torture of the victim, rape of a child, multiple victims made to watch the suffering of others, etc. are some of the horrific circumstances over and above the murder that justify, at least to many, ridding the planet of the perpetrator.
It shouldn't be about punishment. If someone is murdering children then they need to be permanently removed from society. You can never punish someone like that enough. What is the point anyways? They're not going to learn anything.
There are crimes deserving of the death penalty, to protect people and to deter crime. That doesn’t mean the criminal is beyond hope for his eternal soul. Christ can and does forgive and redeem. But a person may still reap the earthly consequences of crime. I agree with Klavan’s assessment of the American system: it takes too long. The Bible even mentions that legal action should be swift, not take too long.
"There are crimes deserving of the death penalty, to protect people and to deter crime. That doesn’t mean the criminal is beyond hope for his eternal soul. Christ can and does forgive and redeem. But a person may still reap the earthly consequences of crime. " Exactly.
I agree. The one caveat I would add is that any justice system that has capital punishment will also execute the innocent in error. Some crimes deserve the death penalty but I'm not sure it's worth the cost of killing the innocent in order to give it (unless it acts as a real deterrent and therefore saves more lives and I don't think that is proven).
@@gareth2736 I have long held the same view. It’s impractical to have a death penalty because some innocents will die. Then I became a Christian. I’m still in favor of the instant death penalty - killing a perp in the act of a crime in order to defend oneself or other victims - but I have an additional reason to oppose state-imposed death penalty. A death penalty artificially shortens the time that a convict can be witnessed to so he can finally confess he is a sinner and accept Jesus as his savior. That doesn’t mean a convict should be released, of course. Earthly crime should receive earthly punishment. A convict who stays in prison will not lapse and perpetrate violence on someone outside the prison.
Anything that prolongs the agony of the guilty is worth preserving. I LIKE the idea of giving scumbags hope and then snatching from them and snuffing out their worthless lives.
I always make the distinction between the talent and the person. People often mistake the characters actors play for the actual person. The two must be separated.
@@davidmarine7174 yes, that's a major problem with the right wing from a Christian perspective - they treat religiousness and tradition as something exclusive to them, which ironically is contradictory to Christianity itself. Many conservative Christians put the people on the left side of the political spectrum as enemies, when in reality there should only be one - Satan. I am a Catholic and my faith is what actually took a huge toll on my political beliefs - first going from centrist to a conservative as I reverted and then becoming more center right as I progressed with my faith.
Even having never been touched by murder directly in my life, I am FOR capital punishment. But I am against the criminals spending more than a few years on death row. Let them have their legal appeals, and then get it over with.
My only issue with capital punishment is the fact that incompetent or corrupt (sometimes both) police and prosecuting attorneys get innocent people convicted more often than should happen (and then when confronted with evidence those same government people will refuse to admit they are in error).
I've read of criminals who become Christians in prison, and not just in hope of making parole. A long period on death row provides the opportunity to repent and, in the Christian religion, save one's soul (as I recall, that's what happened to the character in this film). That's the only positive thing I can think of about prolonged time on death row.
@@sewing1243 That is such a scary thing.... these accounts of people who have been acquitted DECADES after being wrongly convicted😳😳 But who am I to question how God sees fit to work things together, I sure am glad He does tho.
@@sewing1243 I have come to distrust the whole system. I do not want one single innocent person executed but if they do really deserve it they should be.
Andrew, you need to read “Mission at Nuremberg” by Tim Townsend. Daily Wire should make it into a film! It’s a wonderful opportunity to bring Christians and Jews together with a true story of Christian compassion. I’m a conservative Presbyterian pastor who loves great films and performing arts. I have come to greatly appreciate your take on so many things. Keep the faith, brother!
All the Christians around here (Seattle) have gone left wing. There are pro BLM messages and nonsense about Jan 6 on church signs. What are you going to do about that? Are you going to allow the church to be taken over by communism? Because it's happening right now. I'm an atheist and I'm the only one who seems alarmed by that. I don't like Christianity but I really really don't like communism. The combination of the two is terrifying. It seems like they worship Marx more than Jesus.
@@aclark903 ha! Yes we still exist-my particular denomination (PCA) has about 400k members but there are a few million total Presbyterians in the US. There are almost 10 million Presbyterians in South Korea and 700k in Brazil. I live in Germany and have seen that there are several Presbyterian groups that are growing rapidly. I’m the UK, most of the Presbyterians seem to be in Ireland and Scotland, of course. We will not go quietly!
@@TobyDuBose of course you won't go quietly. John Knox was not quiet! Nor Ian Paisley!! And Jesus, Peter and Paul were considered noisy and troublesome.
I remember watching this movie when I was a kid and it actually solidified my pro death penalty stance for certain people. It was an excellent movie and a truly good story. It also sounds like this nun (and the character Sarandon plays) seems somewhat naive. Not necessarily in a negative way. I know she meant well, and she wanted to be a messenger for god.
You really deserve more subscribers than you have Andrew. You are incredibly insightful and wise in your commentary and have an awesome sense of humour to top it off. Much respect.
This is one of the few times I have ever heard Christianity described so well. Because we are human we do want to conform reality to out beliefs, or worse, conform our beliefs to our culture. Faith is not easy. Keeping it is not easy.
As a retired correctional officer I can tell you that convicts themselves see capital punishment as a proper punishment for things like murder and rape. They see life without parole as being cruel and unusual punishment. Beside that, we should never lower ourselves to that of the criminal to make a point. Many people are unaware of the words of Jesus, such as Matthew 5:44 which says, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you," Having movies that employ this aren't trying to force their religious views on a situation, but rather be true to the Word of God. Maybe Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, and Sean Penn were able to depict this Biblical view even though they didn't believe it themselves. According to Merriam-Webster, "The word hypocrite ultimately came into English from the Greek word hypokrites, which means “an actor” or “a stage player.” The Greek word itself is a compound noun: it’s made up of two Greek words that literally translate as “an interpreter from underneath.” That bizarre compound makes more sense when you know that the actors in ancient Greek theater wore large masks to mark which character they were playing, and so they interpreted the story from underneath their masks. It is not surprising, therefore, that we find an abundance of "hypocrites" in Hollywood. Nor is it surprising to find "actors" with the ability to portray outside their personal beliefs.
Andrew, you are the first public person who articulates exactly how I feel about the death penalty. The US does it wrong. I might support it if it was a true deterrent and not a drain on society, but even then I have misgivings. I heard enough about the Oklahoma City bombing to believe that Timothy McVeigh had more information than he revealed, and we will never know the whole story.
I have come to believe that the death penalty is necessary....not because it's a deterrant...it isn't. BUT it says very clearly that as a society we take the taking of a human life so seriously that we will do what we must if you prove yourself a predator. We will expend our time and treasure to allow you to defend yourself, we will keep our process under constant review to ensure we are not becoming predators ourselves but ultimately, if you aren't willing to stare that evil in the eye and not back down then the evil WILL proliferate. If the Almighty, Creator of the Universe who flung stars into space has said it is part of His law then who are we to say it's wrong. We can and should keep arguing over how we apply it BECSUSE the taking of life is an important matter...but the taking of an innocent life is at the top of the hierarchy of society's offenses and shall not and will not be accepted. The death penalty should stand, it's application should be a point of continuous debate
How can anyone say that the death penalty isn't a deterrent God certainly used it to punish those who disobeyed him. You can say the way it's applied today isn't a deterrent. I argue that if it was applied the right way it would be a very good deterrent. No sitting on death row until nobody remembers the crime. I remember a killer that shot up a subway rail car. Killed 10 people. He was tackled by a couple of dudes on the subway. I think he is still alive and that was decades ago. That killer should have been put to death within 90 days of the act. Justice is NOT making the victims family pay to feed, clothe and house the killer of their loved one.
@@dberg1964 there a difference when God kills someone and when we do it. God creates life, why do humans think they are in the same moral level as God??
the only way we can solve crime is to solve the problems with society and that mean talking with the people who did crimes and having rehab and stuff like that and in my mind if you kill a person who did crime you no better then them
I saw it when it came out and I came to the same conclusion, I did not think it was a anti death penalty movie. I felt the character that penn played only changed BECAUSE he was faced with DEATH, He would never have changed without that reality.
I haven't seen the film, but the clip with the victim's parents blows me away not just because it's powerful and it's great acting, but because of the acting chops of R. Lee Ermy. I didn't know he was that great of an actor. I had only ever seen him in roles in the mold of drill sergeant.
What struck me as well is that he lies right up to the very end. It takes him facing imminent death and the knowledge that he will face his maker in order for him to repent. The death penalty is about the eternal soul and where it will go, not temporary life from conception to death.
I came away from this film no longer solidly anti-DP! I thought about how facing death can make you reassess your life, and knowing you're going to die for your sins can make you think about what might happen after you die because of your sins. Eventually I settled in a no-mans-land where I don't know if you'd say I'm for the death penalty but only in certain circumstances or anti-DP except in certain circumstances.
I had the same reaction. I was anti-death penalty going into the film, but I had more complicated thoughts after it. it portrayed a man who because he was being executed, finally admitted and acknowledged what he had done. I don’t think Penn’s character could ever have gotten to the point he was at emotionally and spiritually just before his execution, if he were serving a life sentence. He needed to be aware he was about to meet his maker, not just die of natural causes in prison or in a prison fight, to have had that emotional experience.
I haven’t seen this film but my mom works for a children’s hospital in the emergency room. She’s seen horrors you can’t even imagine. That go on today, that really happen. For example, she’s seen several times literal infants-babies not even a year old, who have been raped. Children who have such a thing done to them-it breaks every bone in their body, internal bleeding, if they somehow survive then they’ll never recover fully-they’ll be disabled for the rest of their lives. And usually it’s a boyfriend that does this. Basically usually when a single mother has the worst boyfriend you can imagine and is afraid herself that he’ll kill her. From what we know of these cases our Justice system is so corrupt that usually these evil people don’t even get harsh punishment. Maybe a month in jail. But yeah, because of my family-my mom witnessing such things, it’s difficult not to be for the death penalty. I do think the men who did these crimes should have the death penalty. But I can tell you right now that this has happened several times by different men and none of them have faced the punishment they deserve.
Agreed. Another great irony of the film? It was produced as an anti-capital punishment screed. Instead you watch as the character played by Sean Penn goes from a lying, murdering, conscience-less, sociopath to a man who faces what he has done and who he is, and has what could be a conversion experience. The trigger that brought about the change? The realization that his con was over...that he actually was about to die. Check out "Mercy Seat" by Johnny Cash.
My favorite Christian movie is an R rated apocalypse with Denzel Washington and Gary Oldman-The Book of Eli-about a man who has to take the Bible across the US to kickstart society again. The Bible, the world of the film, and the plot twist, and especially the villain’s motive, all serve to make it an excellent accidental Christian film.
This is one of the best and most honest assessments on art making /good storytelling. Both the left and right can become too heavy handed and didactic in trying to drive home a message. Thank you for this, I think I will watch it again.
This is a profound analysis of what makes art great. It has to be truthful and real. It can't be sugarcoated and nice. That is why Dostoevsky is a great artist.
Why do so many people use the word "terrifying" for the most mundane of things that don't physically affect them, you know like watching a movie in a classroom? Terrifying would be the Luftwaffe flying overhead and dropping bombs on your head or wandering in a field and coming across the killing fields of Cambodia. Seems people need to make things so much more hysterical using inappropriate language these days.
As a young filmmaker, I do agree that Most of the stories I read in the bible are R rated by modern standards especially the book of Judges and Joshua. I wonder why we sugarcoat such stories yet they are as real and need to be explored to understand how the mercy of God works.
The greatest Christian movie, imho, ever made, which certainly was not intended as such, is 'Shawshank Redemption'. The movie is based on a short story by Steven King, a leftist that would choke on his own tongue at the thought that a movie based on one of HIS stories is a perfect analogue for the story of Christ's suffering, flanked by thieves on his cross, his death and resurrection and his legacy/message of hope. If you have not seen this movie, go rent/stream/buy it - it's one of the very best movies ever made.
@@jajaCogitoErgoSum That’s why execution protocols often include “blanks,” such as one rifle having a blank bullet so that everyone in the firing squad can say to himself, “I didn’t shoot the bullet that killed him.” Other methods have similar “blanks” to reduce the psychological effects on the executioner. I’m definitely in favor of the death penalty, but I also understand why many execution protocols include these kinds of “blanks;” killing another human being is never supposed to be easy, even when it’s necessary.
Nobody should feel safe in a country that has the death penalty. There is always a chance that you will end up as one of the many innocent people wrongly convicted and put to death for a crime that you did not commit.
I'm moved every time I watch Signs. It's a great story about Faith and how God works through ways we might not always understand. I've seen it so many times, but I'm always touched by the story every time I watch it. These are the types of "Christian" movies I wish we had more of.
I thought exactly the same when I saw this movie. I knew it was supposed to convince me to be opposed to capital punishment, but it didn't. It was too honest in showing how evil murderers can be. They NEED to be executed. I'm sick of people focusing on how evil it is to kill people and ignoring how evil some people are, and that it would be evil NOT to kill them for their crimes.
I was pro death penalty till a close friend died and i felt the loss of friendship, potential, experience, and everything else he would have done eventually had he lived. We had so many plans to fulfill, discussions to have, laughs to share, fights to resolve, and so on. Yet he was just gone and it was too late for everything. After that i could never support the death penalty again. Except for self defense, i really dont feel any of us has the right to take all that away from anyone. It isnt just the person youre killing, but everything he could be in the future. Now I dont know what the alternative should be because i also dont believe in locking a man away for the rest of his life. I dont think all people can be reformed, but i do think that everybody should be given the chance. We cannot see the future and so cant genuinely say that a person is beyond help or beyond change, even if that change happens after decades, 5 minutes before passing away in a hospital. Theres also the case of wrong convictions, which will always happen because cops, judges, and lawyers are human and they make mistakes. If 100000 people are correctly judged and executed but one innocent man is wrongfully convicted and given the death sentence, that is enough reason to abolish death sentences.
Very well said. Those are two convincing arguments against the death penalty. Each argument on its own should be enough to convince an open-minded person that the death penalty is wrong; both together should be unassailable, But unfortunately, many have closed minds and closed hearts and cannot see past their rage against wrongdoers.
I didn't watch most of the movie. But I saw the part in which Susan Sarandon said something along the lines of salvation not being a free gift. According to the Bible salvation IS a free gift. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (KJV)
When we saw this movie at an APA convention in Toronto my teenage daughter was so distressed by it. She is firm in her stance against the death penalty. My stance since 9 11 has shifted a little.
The deciding factor on my belief on the death penalty. North Carolina county, over two years 31 first degree murder trials, 16 with private council, 15 with public defender's. Guess which 15 got the death penalty? Death penalty is for the poor!
This is what I mean when I say art can help! Even art made by those who are anti truth. Art seeks the depths of meaning. There is only one place where the deepest meaning can be found. Christians should not abandon the arts because there are pearls buried in these fields.
Isn't this film like 30 years old? Hollywood today is completely different from Hollywood then. Could you imagine a movie like Silence of the Lambs getting made these days.
I think you missed the point of the bitter parents, that they called a murderer “God’s mistake” - its a juxtaposition of a person working out forgiveness in its messiness and people expanding their hatred in a linear way.
Having been touched by murder and witnessed an execution are the reasons I haven't watched this movie, but given your review, I may give it a go. I am very much pro capital punishment. Like you, I agree that the process is flawed with the number of appeals and the time involved in the legal system is both punishment for the families and the criminal.
This is the great paradox of Christianity. If we (as sinners) truly repent, does he forgive us? What if Hitler sincerely repented in the moments before death? Does he get past the doorman? How is that fair? I think this movie stokes that debate so well. In a good way. Never mind the soundtrack. An all around classic film.
I didn’t see the execution as a tragedy. It was the best part of the movie to see justice at least partially served. Only victims can forgive. Being against capital punishment is an exercise in vanity & ignorance, not mercy. How else do we weigh the value of innocent life as a society than by the price one must pay when they deliberately rip it apart? It's lenient enough already with the punishment not fitting the crime. The murderers get years to come to terms with their death, say their goodbyes to family members, make peace with it & then are granted a relatively painless death. The victims' lives are ripped away unexpectedly without mercy & often feel prolonged anguish before their world is completely snuffed out.
My view of the death penalty is and has always been Fair trial, you get an appeal After that, there's either the execution or there isn't. All child predators are automatic death penalty I am 100% pro-execution; but the way the system is now, someone is more likely to die of old age waiting for it to happen than for it to *actually* happen As you say, that's not fair to the families, the victims, the families of the victims, the tax payer or community, and it certainly isn't fair to the convicted him/herself And for the one or two trolls that love to vulture these videos: Yes, that is the pro-life position and no, there is no contradiction there On one hand, you have innocence born into a broken world who never did anything wrong and hasn't even had the opportunity to sin And on the other, you have Person X convicted of Crime Y with Victim Z, and who caused real, irreparable harm Is it more humane to put a rabid dog down, or to cage it up and keep it frothing for 30, 40, 60 years, living in anger and terror, knowing it's only waiting to be put down? Or should the rabid dog be left to ravage the citizenry?
@@huntermccaskill3938 How is it a straw man? You said - and I quote - "All child predators are automatic death penalty". Don't throw around absolutes like "all" and "automatic" if you really meant that there should be exemptions for good-faith ignorance or any other mitigating factors. Once you admit that there should be exemptions, you have to back down and remove those words like "all" and "automatic". Alternatively, you might dispute that a 17-year-old should be considered a "child", or that a drunken date should be considered "predatory", but bear in mind that many would consider this person to be a child predator, regardless. You can't very well make blanket statements about who should be put to death, and then say after the person has been killed, "Oh, I didn't mean to include people like _that."_ The thing about the death penalty is that it is final, and there is no going back from it if you realise that you have made a mistake.
I don't believe in the death penalty simply because it cost the taxpayers way too much money. As soon as they are sentenced, the appeal process starts and hundreds of thousands of dollars go to the people fighting to get it reversed. Give them all a life sentence without the possibility of parole. I would never watch this movie because I am unable to listen to anything these people say regardless of what they are saying.
I walked away with tremendous respect for Sarandon and Robbins. To promote their position of being anti-death penalty, they could’ve made Sean Penn’s character innocent of the crime and bolster the argument of putting an innocent man to death. But they made the character guilty of murder.
One of the best pieces of advice came from a man who I know was insane. I was constantly complaining about liberals and he said to me, "Nobody is wrong all the time." We can complain about leftists until we are blue in the face but it would only make us miserable and we'll miss the part about them being right occasionally and needing our prayers and love.
If anyone is looking for a good Christian movie they haven’t heard of before, check out Faith Like Potatoes. It’s a South African movie, biographical, very good as far as I can remember. I’m gonna rewatch it to see if I remember correctly
Regarding your comment about movies showing babies as a positive thing, Hollywood did make a bunch of movies like that in the late 80s. Look Who's Talking comes to mind and Baby Boom. They seem to have stopped making positive family movies now altogether.
Drew, you are an absolute champion. But, as long as you are kicking around with Knowles and Walsh, it's only a matter of time before you convert to Catholicism. God bless you mate.
I never took the movie as a propaganda for us to stand opposed against the death penalty. There is that once flashback scene in fact that would make you think that perhaps the protagonist did deserve the punishment he got. The point was not about him being worthy or not of redemption. That can forever be debated. The point here is that he finally owned up to what he did and repented
The problem with the death penalty is that it has been shown that a number of people have been executed by the state who turned out to be innocent of the crime. At least if they had received life imprisonment and subsequently found innocent, they would be released with some years to live free.
I would love to know Mr. Klavan's intriguing thoughts about : 1. the independent film RAPTURE starring Mimi Rogers and David Duchovny. 2. the HBO drama series CARNIVALE starring Clancy Brown and Nick Stahl. 3. the Shaun Cassidy show AMERICAN GOTHIC starring Gary Cole and Lucas Black.
"God is not dead" is also an amazing movie. It is not ideal. Shows hardships. And it is not sunshine and rainbows. Shows real suffering and even tragedy. But in the middle of that, we walked away from watching it with a very powerful message of how God is good. I highly recommend it
I want to be a film maker, and I worry that I won’t get anywhere because I’m a Christian. But I really don’t want to be a cliche Christian-movie maker, I want to make real movies that reflect the truth of Christ. Thanks for recommending this! I’m trying to find good movies to watch to imitate. They say that to write well you need to read a lot, and I’m of the same opinion with movie making, both reading and watching a lot of good stuff.
My son said that the Penn character had not faced his death he might never have come to the Lord. My only problem with the death penalty is that there are prosecutors who want the win MORE than they want the truth. We know innocent people have been put to death.
Thanks . Great review. I had similar thoughts about Cider House Rules. I am convinced the makers thought they were making a pro abortion movie but actually made an anti-abortion movie. The children's home was saved in the end by Toby Maguire's character, the baby that was not aborted.
Most unexpected Christian movie: Blade Runner. Deckard had killed his whole replicant 'family'. Batty has every reason to destroy him. But in his final moments Batty forgives Deckard and spares his life.
The reason we CAN love, in spite of emotions, is that love is TO WILL AND WORK TOWARD THE GOODNESS OF OTHERS …EVEN OUR ENEMIES…we can choose to obey Gods command or reject Him who sacrificed Himself for our own sins
Great movie that made me think about Jesus before I was a Christian! I think it was in the Solomon's temple story that the Holy Spirit descended upon non believing artists to make their gifts worthy of the task at hand
I struggle with Capital Punishment, not because of a moral or justice concern but because, I do not trust any government, but especially the ones we have today with that power, it tends to get abused and even if its correctly applied 90% or even 99% of the time does that justify the 1% of the time when they mess up intentionally or unintentionally?
9:47 I can't comprehend the argument that is being put forth here. I can understand the artistic element of changing the method of capital punishment but how is tragedy introduced through a more human method of death.
Regarding the death penalty… Is there anything more unjust than requiring the victims and other law abiding citizens to pay for criminals’ food, clothing, shelter, education, gym equipment, etc. Not only does the victim suffer at the hands of the criminal, they must continue to support the criminal in perpetuity at the behest of the government. Humanity is terrible at justice.
I remember watching this movie in the theater with one of my sisters.. I am 45 now.. when I was probably 17 and my sister was 19. It was a very hard film to watch I'll be honest but the message was unbelievable. I know it's a good movie because of that.
Andrew I have heard you basically say before that there haven’t been any really good Christian films recently (past 20 years or so), and that a lot of Christian films are cheesy and unrealistic. Surely the latter half of that is true, but it has made me wonder if you’ve ever seen The Tree of Life (2011) or A Hidden Life (2019) both directed by Terrence Malick? I have been listening to your show regularly since 2015/16 and I don’t think I’ve ever heard you talk about either of these movies. They are two of the most powerful films I’ve ever seen and both have deeply Christian themes and motifs. Anyone who loves movies and hasn’t seen them-seriously, watch both of them. I think there are some very solid Christian movies (some of them foreign films) that have come out in the past 20 years or so but they are generally not blockbusters and fly under the radar. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Never seems any Christians films except for the Chronicles of Narnia, but I heard the film I Still Believe starring the dude from Riverdale (KJ Apa) is really good. Never seen it so I'm going base of the numerous positive reviews thw film received. It's based on the life of Christian singer Jeremy Camp.
I had to stop and watch this video to see if you thought what I thought when I saw that film. It was obviously put out with the intention of moving people against the death penalty, but by the end of the movie, I said to my husband, “It actually just made the case FOR the death penalty!” Not just because of showing the heinousness of their crimes and the resulting suffering. But because of all the effort and tactics she tried to get him to face the truth of what he had done and take responsibility for it, she failed. The thing that finally moves him to that point was being forced to face his own imminent mortality!! Also, I so agree with your assertion that conservatives make terrible, propaganda art!
I am unsure if the liberal filmmakers knew that it was the threat of the death penalty that fundamentally causes the killer's (Sean Penn) climactic confession and repentance and possible salvation. Had he lived a full lifetime, would he have had to confront the reality of what he did? Not arguing for the death penalty, but mortality is a great motivator.
From Jesus's own mouth, Matthew 5:38-41 says this... "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also."
Thank you so, SO MUCH for this video commentary. One of the issues I was having with Christian "art" or maybe "media" in general is just what you said at the end. They're "theories", they're not "real". They're basically how people "should" act but not how they REALLY act. It just makes it so hard when I look at the nitty gritty of the world and see the brutality of reality and am just like "well what are we supposed to do??? Pretend this part doesn't exist???"
No two ways about it, you commit murder, you die. Other terrible crimes deserve similar treatment. The issue is not primarily the act of killing, but the wait in between. Death row really shouldn't be a year's wait. A few weeks to a month or two at most, then death. As with most things, it's bureaucracy that grinds the blade of justice to dullness. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Perfect retaliation. Life for life is just.
You may want to watch the movie Tramp for the Lord. It’s about a Christian woman, Corrie Ten Boone (and her family), who is sentenced to a concentration camp for hiding Jews in her home during WWII.
women in prisons, preaching, is a glimpse into a masochistic personality, the dynamics of being dominant and close up to the most vile in society in a controlled environment, its a power trip
I find that most leftist films (or films by leftists, I should say) are strikingly Christian in theme. Two of the latest Disney films for instance (Raya and the Last Dragon and Encanto) were very touching to me in the many parallels to various aspects of Christianity (and even pretty clearly anti-woke sentiments).
13:19 The only issue is that, the left wing nonsense spills through from her mouth. Jesus didn't just lift those sinners up by showing them their worth. Jesus didn't hang out with sinners because he loved sin. He hung out with them and told them to stop sinning. This is what the left always does with the message of Jesus. They twist his intent. Yes, he loves all of his children... But he does not love the way some of us, most of us, behave. He wants us to change, to do better, to accept Him. The left ALWAYS leaves that part out.
Art is always beautiful. It is the biggest lie that people have convinced us that art can be ugly. Marcel Duchamp's urinal is not art. Jackson Pollock's paintings are not art. If this movie is art, it is the beauty of the drama that makes it beautiful. Yes, Shakespeare's plays were not rated G, but we hold them up because of the beauty. The beauty is also in the language. Today people insert the F-word into every script to put that edge on every hackneyed screen play -haphazardly written. No, my dear Mr. Klavan, the words do matter. And when the F-word is the only note you play, the sounds you make is not music. It may be noise, and it may feel like a urinal, but it is not beautiful and it is not art.
Nah, she is on the right track in that scene with the parents. I have a friend who is training as a spiritual councilor. It is like being a tax attorney. Say you are going through a devastating divorce, and your tax guy shows up. He isn't there so you can cry on his shoulder. "what about those back taxes?" That is his point. Spiritual advisors are supposed to answer the question of how do you enter the kingdom of heaven. They are there to save souls. And the Catholics are not those nambie evangelicals. You can't just splash a glass of water on yourself as you fall through the trap.
I remember seeing a film when I was a kid that concerned a Russian serial killer who preyed on children. He was found guilty in court, and was then taken outside and shot. I believe it was based on a true story.
that sounds like the story of chief of secret police Beria. I probably haven't seen the movie you mentioned, but it was also touched upon the satirical but still historically rather accurate "The Death of Stalin".
I'm not Christian but I do believe that if you take a life, you forfeit your own AND the punishment should fit the crime. Yes, you can be forgiven, but not in this life.
I'm not anti-death-penalty, but yes forgiveness is supposed to be in this life. He who says "I forgive him. Now get him out of my sight forever! Off with his head!" is not truly forgiving anyone. St. Maria Goretti was murdered in 1902 by a madman would-be-rapist who decades later -- after a long prison sentence -- had repented and asked the girl's mother for forgiveness. She forgave him. They attended Mass together the next day. He (the killer) and the girl's mother attended the girl's canonization together. THAT is true forgiveness. Not "I forgive you but not in this life."
@@oldmanfromscenetwentyfour8164 if you read my whole comment, i just gave you an example of someone who was in an even worse situation and still forgave the killer. also, i am not claiming that everyone must forgive others immediately, especially for heinous crimes like this. it can take years. and you are also free to NOT forgive, if you so choose (although you're not free from the spiritual consequences of such a decision). but don't make a mockery of forgiveness by claiming the killer "can be forgiven but not in this life." just be honest and say you don't believe he can/should be forgiven.
Andrew Klavan has provided a brilliant review! Yes, capital punishment is just punishment for capital crime. But we have overridden biblical model controls like capital perjury, plea bargains and 2-3 witnesses.
If God can use Pharaoh to show His Greatness, he can use Susan Sarandon
If I were you I'd consider that it's just possible Susan Sarandon knows something you dont
This is one of my issues with Christian media recently. I'm older now and able to better understand what was in the Bible a lot more and the stories in there are dark and gritty, but when I was in church, the stories were sanitized and watered down so much that it wouldn't scare the faint hearted congregation. Even the depictions of the people in Christ's time looked clean and well nourished when the reality was a brutal existence. We need some real Christian stories being told in the same vein of Sin City.
It's one of the things that we need to know that all the sh*t that went down in Sodom and how the Tower of Babel came to be are well under way to repeating itself in the modern age. No sugarcoating it at all.
Read the U.K. version of A Clockwork Orange (1962) By John Anthony Burgess Wilson.
Dark and gritty but true. Yahweh the Christ warned us against blindly following church and state. Only his Word matters
You should watch Netflix's Daredevil
@@vastolordes35 I completely second this. Amazing Christian Art but with a genuine story. Watch it as Season 1, 2 Defenders, Season 3. Then watch The Punisher because it is awesome. However they are including Daredevil in the Attorney at law series so he may just be ruined as a character soon. @#£%!!!!
It's a film I saw when it came out, I remember it as being a film that didn't play games, the killer was a killer, and not treated as a victim, the nun was a good, but nowhere near perfect, person. For me it said the death penalty is wrong even for those who deserve it. I didn't agree but respected the arguments it made.
I know what they were pushing for, but I don't think the killer would have come to repentance except for facing his own death. I saw it as a positive as it showed the man the value of life he took by facing the loss of his own.
@@chrisazure1624 I agree about the killer only repenting because of her pushing. One problem today is that we are too fast too forgive, and don't push repentance first.
Having the death penalty acknowledges that there are crimes so depraved, so cruel, and so callous that only the death penalty is an appropriate punishment. Torture of the victim, rape of a child, multiple victims made to watch the suffering of others, etc. are some of the horrific circumstances over and above the murder that justify, at least to many, ridding the planet of the perpetrator.
Why wont you torture them
100% for the death penalty
I could not imagine being innocent and sitting in the electric chair waiting to be killed. It’s horrific.
Remember that Gacy said that anyone had access to that crawl space when the bodies lay. I guess he did not believe in the sanctity of life either
It shouldn't be about punishment. If someone is murdering children then they need to be permanently removed from society. You can never punish someone like that enough. What is the point anyways? They're not going to learn anything.
I Love the Unconditional Love shown in this film. We are called to Love as Christians. Love does not mean there are no consequences.
Tough love- hurts those who give it & allows those receiving it to grow IF they choose to change for their betterment.
All fee mails support the criminal abuse of men.
@@GomersPile01 We all have to pay fees for our mail, it’s call postage. No one is criminally abusing you.
@@AltKuyperian All fee mails support the criminal abuse of men.
Tell me about consequences…
I keep eating cheeseburgers underwater and it’s killing me.
There are crimes deserving of the death penalty, to protect people and to deter crime. That doesn’t mean the criminal is beyond hope for his eternal soul. Christ can and does forgive and redeem. But a person may still reap the earthly consequences of crime. I agree with Klavan’s assessment of the American system: it takes too long. The Bible even mentions that legal action should be swift, not take too long.
"There are crimes deserving of the death penalty, to protect people and to deter crime. That doesn’t mean the criminal is beyond hope for his eternal soul. Christ can and does forgive and redeem. But a person may still reap the earthly consequences of crime. "
Exactly.
I agree. The one caveat I would add is that any justice system that has capital punishment will also execute the innocent in error. Some crimes deserve the death penalty but I'm not sure it's worth the cost of killing the innocent in order to give it (unless it acts as a real deterrent and therefore saves more lives and I don't think that is proven).
@@gareth2736 I have long held the same view. It’s impractical to have a death penalty because some innocents will die. Then I became a Christian. I’m still in favor of the instant death penalty - killing a perp in the act of a crime in order to defend oneself or other victims - but I have an additional reason to oppose state-imposed death penalty. A death penalty artificially shortens the time that a convict can be witnessed to so he can finally confess he is a sinner and accept Jesus as his savior. That doesn’t mean a convict should be released, of course. Earthly crime should receive earthly punishment. A convict who stays in prison will not lapse and perpetrate violence on someone outside the prison.
Anything that prolongs the agony of the guilty is worth preserving. I LIKE the idea of giving scumbags hope and then snatching from them and snuffing out their worthless lives.
The problem is when people think that because someone is good at their job that makes them a good person. This is especially NOT true in Hollywood.
I always make the distinction between the talent and the person. People often mistake the characters actors play for the actual person. The two must be separated.
@@davidmarine7174 yes, that's a major problem with the right wing from a Christian perspective - they treat religiousness and tradition as something exclusive to them, which ironically is contradictory to Christianity itself. Many conservative Christians put the people on the left side of the political spectrum as enemies, when in reality there should only be one - Satan. I am a Catholic and my faith is what actually took a huge toll on my political beliefs - first going from centrist to a conservative as I reverted and then becoming more center right as I progressed with my faith.
There are none good by God’s standard.
Even having never been touched by murder directly in my life, I am FOR capital punishment. But I am against the criminals spending more than a few years on death row. Let them have their legal appeals, and then get it over with.
My only issue with capital punishment is the fact that incompetent or corrupt (sometimes both) police and prosecuting attorneys get innocent people convicted more often than should happen (and then when confronted with evidence those same government people will refuse to admit they are in error).
I've read of criminals who become Christians in prison, and not just in hope of making parole. A long period on death row provides the opportunity to repent and, in the Christian religion, save one's soul (as I recall, that's what happened to the character in this film).
That's the only positive thing I can think of about prolonged time on death row.
Yeah because they are just taking what's left of our earnings that the democrats haven't taken🙄🙄
@@sewing1243 That is such a scary thing.... these accounts of people who have been acquitted DECADES after being wrongly convicted😳😳
But who am I to question how God sees fit to work things together, I sure am glad He does tho.
@@sewing1243 I have come to distrust the whole system. I do not want one single innocent person executed but if they do really deserve it they should be.
Andrew, you need to read “Mission at Nuremberg” by Tim Townsend. Daily Wire should make it into a film! It’s a wonderful opportunity to bring Christians and Jews together with a true story of Christian compassion.
I’m a conservative Presbyterian pastor who loves great films and performing arts. I have come to greatly appreciate your take on so many things. Keep the faith, brother!
All the Christians around here (Seattle) have gone left wing. There are pro BLM messages and nonsense about Jan 6 on church signs. What are you going to do about that? Are you going to allow the church to be taken over by communism? Because it's happening right now.
I'm an atheist and I'm the only one who seems alarmed by that. I don't like Christianity but I really really don't like communism. The combination of the two is terrifying. It seems like they worship Marx more than Jesus.
Presbyterians still exist!? I thought they were going extinct? In the UK where I'm from they merged with Congregationalists & become #UnitedReform...
@@aclark903 ha! Yes we still exist-my particular denomination (PCA) has about 400k members but there are a few million total Presbyterians in the US. There are almost 10 million Presbyterians in South Korea and 700k in Brazil. I live in Germany and have seen that there are several Presbyterian groups that are growing rapidly. I’m the UK, most of the Presbyterians seem to be in Ireland and Scotland, of course.
We will not go quietly!
@@TobyDuBose It is true the ones in #Ulster have the highest profile.
@@TobyDuBose of course you won't go quietly. John Knox was not quiet! Nor Ian Paisley!!
And Jesus, Peter and Paul were considered noisy and troublesome.
I remember watching this movie when I was a kid and it actually solidified my pro death penalty stance for certain people. It was an excellent movie and a truly good story. It also sounds like this nun (and the character Sarandon plays) seems somewhat naive. Not necessarily in a negative way. I know she meant well, and she wanted to be a messenger for god.
Movie name pls..
@@jeswinjosebaby6630 Dead Man Walking
@@flatlander6442 tnq.
You really deserve more subscribers than you have Andrew. You are incredibly insightful and wise in your commentary and have an awesome sense of humour to top it off. Much respect.
Dead Man Walking is an incredible film. Remember walking out of the theater moved, and was still moved days later. Sign of a terrific movie.
This is one of the few times I have ever heard Christianity described so well. Because we are human we do want to conform reality to out beliefs, or worse, conform our beliefs to our culture. Faith is not easy. Keeping it is not easy.
As a retired correctional officer I can tell you that convicts themselves see capital punishment as a proper punishment for things like murder and rape. They see life without parole as being cruel and unusual punishment. Beside that, we should never lower ourselves to that of the criminal to make a point. Many people are unaware of the words of Jesus, such as Matthew 5:44 which says, "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you," Having movies that employ this aren't trying to force their religious views on a situation, but rather be true to the Word of God. Maybe Susan Sarandon, Tim Robbins, and Sean Penn were able to depict this Biblical view even though they didn't believe it themselves. According to Merriam-Webster, "The word hypocrite ultimately came into English from the Greek word hypokrites, which means “an actor” or “a stage player.” The Greek word itself is a compound noun: it’s made up of two Greek words that literally translate as “an interpreter from underneath.” That bizarre compound makes more sense when you know that the actors in ancient Greek theater wore large masks to mark which character they were playing, and so they interpreted the story from underneath their masks. It is not surprising, therefore, that we find an abundance of "hypocrites" in Hollywood. Nor is it surprising to find "actors" with the ability to portray outside their personal beliefs.
Andrew, you are the first public person who articulates exactly how I feel about the death penalty. The US does it wrong. I might support it if it was a true deterrent and not a drain on society, but even then I have misgivings. I heard enough about the Oklahoma City bombing to believe that Timothy McVeigh had more information than he revealed, and we will never know the whole story.
I forgot that R. Lee Ermey is in this movie and boy did he steal that scene.
I have come to believe that the death penalty is necessary....not because it's a deterrant...it isn't. BUT it says very clearly that as a society we take the taking of a human life so seriously that we will do what we must if you prove yourself a predator. We will expend our time and treasure to allow you to defend yourself, we will keep our process under constant review to ensure we are not becoming predators ourselves but ultimately, if you aren't willing to stare that evil in the eye and not back down then the evil WILL proliferate. If the Almighty, Creator of the Universe who flung stars into space has said it is part of His law then who are we to say it's wrong. We can and should keep arguing over how we apply it BECSUSE the taking of life is an important matter...but the taking of an innocent life is at the top of the hierarchy of society's offenses and shall not and will not be accepted. The death penalty should stand, it's application should be a point of continuous debate
Thank you someone who gets it!!
Wow- very well put!
How can anyone say that the death penalty isn't a deterrent God certainly used it to punish those who disobeyed him. You can say the way it's applied today isn't a deterrent. I argue that if it was applied the right way it would be a very good deterrent. No sitting on death row until nobody remembers the crime. I remember a killer that shot up a subway rail car. Killed 10 people. He was tackled by a couple of dudes on the subway. I think he is still alive and that was decades ago. That killer should have been put to death within 90 days of the act. Justice is NOT making the victims family pay to feed, clothe and house the killer of their loved one.
@@dberg1964 there a difference when God kills someone and when we do it. God creates life, why do humans think they are in the same moral level as God??
the only way we can solve crime is to solve the problems with society and that mean talking with the people who did crimes and having rehab and stuff like that and in my mind if you kill a person who did crime you no better then them
I saw it when it came out and I came to the same conclusion, I did not think it was a anti death penalty movie. I felt the character that penn played only changed BECAUSE he was faced with DEATH, He would never have changed without that reality.
I haven't seen the film, but the clip with the victim's parents blows me away not just because it's powerful and it's great acting, but because of the acting chops of R. Lee Ermy. I didn't know he was that great of an actor. I had only ever seen him in roles in the mold of drill sergeant.
What struck me as well is that he lies right up to the very end. It takes him facing imminent death and the knowledge that he will face his maker in order for him to repent. The death penalty is about the eternal soul and where it will go, not temporary life from conception to death.
I came away from this film no longer solidly anti-DP! I thought about how facing death can make you reassess your life, and knowing you're going to die for your sins can make you think about what might happen after you die because of your sins. Eventually I settled in a no-mans-land where I don't know if you'd say I'm for the death penalty but only in certain circumstances or anti-DP except in certain circumstances.
I had the same reaction. I was anti-death penalty going into the film, but I had more complicated thoughts after it. it portrayed a man who because he was being executed, finally admitted and acknowledged what he had done. I don’t think Penn’s character could ever have gotten to the point he was at emotionally and spiritually just before his execution, if he were serving a life sentence. He needed to be aware he was about to meet his maker, not just die of natural causes in prison or in a prison fight, to have had that emotional experience.
I haven’t seen this film but my mom works for a children’s hospital in the emergency room. She’s seen horrors you can’t even imagine. That go on today, that really happen.
For example, she’s seen several times literal infants-babies not even a year old, who have been raped.
Children who have such a thing done to them-it breaks every bone in their body, internal bleeding, if they somehow survive then they’ll never recover fully-they’ll be disabled for the rest of their lives.
And usually it’s a boyfriend that does this. Basically usually when a single mother has the worst boyfriend you can imagine and is afraid herself that he’ll kill her.
From what we know of these cases our Justice system is so corrupt that usually these evil people don’t even get harsh punishment. Maybe a month in jail.
But yeah, because of my family-my mom witnessing such things, it’s difficult not to be for the death penalty. I do think the men who did these crimes should have the death penalty. But I can tell you right now that this has happened several times by different men and none of them have faced the punishment they deserve.
JPII changed my position. He forgave his attacker and still, maybe caused the fall of communism. Life is tragic..
Agreed. Another great irony of the film? It was produced as an anti-capital punishment screed. Instead you watch as the character played by Sean Penn goes from a lying, murdering, conscience-less, sociopath to a man who faces what he has done and who he is, and has what could be a conversion experience. The trigger that brought about the change? The realization that his con was over...that he actually was about to die.
Check out "Mercy Seat" by Johnny Cash.
My favorite Christian movie is an R rated apocalypse with Denzel Washington and Gary Oldman-The Book of Eli-about a man who has to take the Bible across the US to kickstart society again. The Bible, the world of the film, and the plot twist, and especially the villain’s motive, all serve to make it an excellent accidental Christian film.
This is one of the best and most honest assessments on art making /good storytelling. Both the left and right can become too heavy handed and didactic in trying to drive home a message. Thank you for this, I think I will watch it again.
This is a profound analysis of what makes art great. It has to be truthful and real. It can't be sugarcoated and nice. That is why Dostoevsky is a great artist.
The nun portrayed by Susan came across as someone with peripheral knowledge of Catholicism trying to explain Jesus.
At Close Range was a great movie.
The the song "Live To Tell" is also arguably the best song Madonna ever recorded.
Christopher Walken is an incredible villain. “At Close Range” is unforgettable.
@@TheVertigoalley Absolutely
Saw this movie in sophomore high school sex Ed class. It took almost a week to get through. It was terrifying.
Why do so many people use the word "terrifying" for the most mundane of things that don't physically affect them, you know like watching a movie in a classroom? Terrifying would be the Luftwaffe flying overhead and dropping bombs on your head or wandering in a field and coming across the killing fields of Cambodia. Seems people need to make things so much more hysterical using inappropriate language these days.
@@muhdiversity7409 I think a better question would be, why does it matter in the slightest?
As a young filmmaker, I do agree that Most of the stories I read in the bible are R rated by modern standards especially the book of Judges and Joshua. I wonder why we sugarcoat such stories yet they are as real and need to be explored to understand how the mercy of God works.
Sadly this film would not be made today.
The greatest Christian movie, imho, ever made, which certainly was not intended as such, is 'Shawshank Redemption'. The movie is based on a short story by Steven King, a leftist that would choke on his own tongue at the thought that a movie based on one of HIS stories is a perfect analogue for the story of Christ's suffering, flanked by thieves on his cross, his death and resurrection and his legacy/message of hope. If you have not seen this movie, go rent/stream/buy it - it's one of the very best movies ever made.
I also very much enjoy the Green Mile... Steven King, I'd assume due to his upbringing in the faith, can be very on point if he tries to be
The death penalty can give the public a feeling of safety knowing the predator can never escape & kill more.
Also a deterance to those who think to commit the same crime.
What about the executioner?
@@jajaCogitoErgoSum That’s why execution protocols often include “blanks,” such as one rifle having a blank bullet so that everyone in the firing squad can say to himself, “I didn’t shoot the bullet that killed him.” Other methods have similar “blanks” to reduce the psychological effects on the executioner.
I’m definitely in favor of the death penalty, but I also understand why many execution protocols include these kinds of “blanks;” killing another human being is never supposed to be easy, even when it’s necessary.
Nobody should feel safe in a country that has the death penalty. There is always a chance that you will end up as one of the many innocent people wrongly convicted and put to death for a crime that you did not commit.
@@omp199 agree
I'm moved every time I watch Signs. It's a great story about Faith and how God works through ways we might not always understand. I've seen it so many times, but I'm always touched by the story every time I watch it. These are the types of "Christian" movies I wish we had more of.
I thought exactly the same when I saw this movie. I knew it was supposed to convince me to be opposed to capital punishment, but it didn't. It was too honest in showing how evil murderers can be. They NEED to be executed. I'm sick of people focusing on how evil it is to kill people and ignoring how evil some people are, and that it would be evil NOT to kill them for their crimes.
I was pro death penalty till a close friend died and i felt the loss of friendship, potential, experience, and everything else he would have done eventually had he lived. We had so many plans to fulfill, discussions to have, laughs to share, fights to resolve, and so on. Yet he was just gone and it was too late for everything. After that i could never support the death penalty again. Except for self defense, i really dont feel any of us has the right to take all that away from anyone. It isnt just the person youre killing, but everything he could be in the future.
Now I dont know what the alternative should be because i also dont believe in locking a man away for the rest of his life. I dont think all people can be reformed, but i do think that everybody should be given the chance. We cannot see the future and so cant genuinely say that a person is beyond help or beyond change, even if that change happens after decades, 5 minutes before passing away in a hospital.
Theres also the case of wrong convictions, which will always happen because cops, judges, and lawyers are human and they make mistakes. If 100000 people are correctly judged and executed but one innocent man is wrongfully convicted and given the death sentence, that is enough reason to abolish death sentences.
Very well said. Those are two convincing arguments against the death penalty. Each argument on its own should be enough to convince an open-minded person that the death penalty is wrong; both together should be unassailable, But unfortunately, many have closed minds and closed hearts and cannot see past their rage against wrongdoers.
Dead Man Walking is so good but I cannot rewatch. Truly heartbreaking
I didn't watch most of the movie. But I saw the part in which Susan Sarandon said something along the lines of salvation not being a free gift. According to the Bible salvation IS a free gift. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (KJV)
When we saw this movie at an APA convention in Toronto my teenage daughter was so distressed by it. She is firm in her stance against the death penalty. My stance since 9 11 has shifted a little.
The deciding factor on my belief on the death penalty. North Carolina county, over two years 31 first degree murder trials, 16 with private council, 15 with public defender's. Guess which 15 got the death penalty? Death penalty is for the poor!
This is what I mean when I say art can help! Even art made by those who are anti truth. Art seeks the depths of meaning. There is only one place where the deepest meaning can be found. Christians should not abandon the arts because there are pearls buried in these fields.
Isn't this film like 30 years old? Hollywood today is completely different from Hollywood then. Could you imagine a movie like Silence of the Lambs getting made these days.
I think you missed the point of the bitter parents, that they called a murderer “God’s mistake” - its a juxtaposition of a person working out forgiveness in its messiness and people expanding their hatred in a linear way.
Having been touched by murder and witnessed an execution are the reasons I haven't watched this movie, but given your review, I may give it a go. I am very much pro capital punishment. Like you, I agree that the process is flawed with the number of appeals and the time involved in the legal system is both punishment for the families and the criminal.
This is the great paradox of Christianity. If we (as sinners) truly repent, does he forgive us? What if Hitler sincerely repented in the moments before death? Does he get past the doorman? How is that fair? I think this movie stokes that debate so well. In a good way. Never mind the soundtrack. An all around classic film.
There's an opera at the Met in NY playing on this very story. Dead Man Walking.
I didn’t see the execution as a tragedy. It was the best part of the movie to see justice at least partially served. Only victims can forgive. Being against capital punishment is an exercise in vanity & ignorance, not mercy. How else do we weigh the value of innocent life as a society than by the price one must pay when they deliberately rip it apart? It's lenient enough already with the punishment not fitting the crime. The murderers get years to come to terms with their death, say their goodbyes to family members, make peace with it & then are granted a relatively painless death. The victims' lives are ripped away unexpectedly without mercy & often feel prolonged anguish before their world is completely snuffed out.
My view of the death penalty is and has always been
Fair trial, you get an appeal
After that, there's either the execution or there isn't. All child predators are automatic death penalty
I am 100% pro-execution; but the way the system is now, someone is more likely to die of old age waiting for it to happen than for it to *actually* happen
As you say, that's not fair to the families, the victims, the families of the victims, the tax payer or community, and it certainly isn't fair to the convicted him/herself
And for the one or two trolls that love to vulture these videos: Yes, that is the pro-life position and no, there is no contradiction there
On one hand, you have innocence born into a broken world who never did anything wrong and hasn't even had the opportunity to sin
And on the other, you have Person X convicted of Crime Y with Victim Z, and who caused real, irreparable harm
Is it more humane to put a rabid dog down, or to cage it up and keep it frothing for 30, 40, 60 years, living in anger and terror, knowing it's only waiting to be put down? Or should the rabid dog be left to ravage the citizenry?
What if a guy at a bar is hammered and goes home with a 17 year old with a fake id?
@@street_preacher Don't get hammered. Don't go to bars with a fake ID.
@@street_preacher You're arguing a strawman of good-faith ignorance
But also yes, she shouldn't have been there to begin with and he was irresponsible
@@huntermccaskill3938 How is it a straw man? You said - and I quote - "All child predators are automatic death penalty". Don't throw around absolutes like "all" and "automatic" if you really meant that there should be exemptions for good-faith ignorance or any other mitigating factors. Once you admit that there should be exemptions, you have to back down and remove those words like "all" and "automatic".
Alternatively, you might dispute that a 17-year-old should be considered a "child", or that a drunken date should be considered "predatory", but bear in mind that many would consider this person to be a child predator, regardless. You can't very well make blanket statements about who should be put to death, and then say after the person has been killed, "Oh, I didn't mean to include people like _that."_ The thing about the death penalty is that it is final, and there is no going back from it if you realise that you have made a mistake.
@@omp199 Bless your heart, you think I'm going to walk back what I said when I explained exactly what I meant
I don't believe in the death penalty simply because it cost the taxpayers way too much money. As soon as they are sentenced, the appeal process starts and hundreds of thousands of dollars go to the people fighting to get it reversed. Give them all a life sentence without the possibility of parole. I would never watch this movie because I am unable to listen to anything these people say regardless of what they are saying.
Well, I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day.
I walked away with tremendous respect for Sarandon and Robbins. To promote their position of being anti-death penalty, they could’ve made Sean Penn’s character innocent of the crime and bolster the argument of putting an innocent man to death. But they made the character guilty of murder.
One of the best pieces of advice came from a man who I know was insane. I was constantly complaining about liberals and he said to me, "Nobody is wrong all the time."
We can complain about leftists until we are blue in the face but it would only make us miserable and we'll miss the part about them being right occasionally and needing our prayers and love.
If anyone is looking for a good Christian movie they haven’t heard of before, check out Faith Like Potatoes. It’s a South African movie, biographical, very good as far as I can remember. I’m gonna rewatch it to see if I remember correctly
Rushdoony stated nearly 50 years ago, that art was religion externalized……
Regarding your comment about movies showing babies as a positive thing, Hollywood did make a bunch of movies like that in the late 80s. Look Who's Talking comes to mind and Baby Boom. They seem to have stopped making positive family movies now altogether.
They changed the definition of positive.
have you ever reviewed "Silence" (2016)?
Yes I’d like to hear his thoughts on that movie. It is such an intense movie.
I almost fell asleep watching this movie.
I believe he did a while back.
Drew, you are an absolute champion. But, as long as you are kicking around with Knowles and Walsh, it's only a matter of time before you convert to Catholicism. God bless you mate.
I never took the movie as a propaganda for us to stand opposed against the death penalty. There is that once flashback scene in fact that would make you think that perhaps the protagonist did deserve the punishment he got. The point was not about him being worthy or not of redemption. That can forever be debated. The point here is that he finally owned up to what he did and repented
The problem with the death penalty is that it has been shown that a number of people have been executed by the state who turned out to be innocent of the crime. At least if they had received life imprisonment and subsequently found innocent, they would be released with some years to live free.
I would love to know Mr. Klavan's intriguing thoughts about :
1. the independent film RAPTURE
starring Mimi Rogers and David Duchovny.
2. the HBO drama series CARNIVALE
starring Clancy Brown and Nick Stahl.
3. the Shaun Cassidy show AMERICAN GOTHIC starring Gary Cole and Lucas Black.
Rapture was way off nor accurate.
"God is not dead" is also an amazing movie. It is not ideal. Shows hardships. And it is not sunshine and rainbows. Shows real suffering and even tragedy. But in the middle of that, we walked away from watching it with a very powerful message of how God is good. I highly recommend it
I want to be a film maker, and I worry that I won’t get anywhere because I’m a Christian. But I really don’t want to be a cliche Christian-movie maker, I want to make real movies that reflect the truth of Christ. Thanks for recommending this! I’m trying to find good movies to watch to imitate. They say that to write well you need to read a lot, and I’m of the same opinion with movie making, both reading and watching a lot of good stuff.
Said it before and I'll say it again. Klavan on cinema is fantastic. His politics are cool but this is gold
My son said that the Penn character had not faced his death he might never have come to the Lord. My only problem with the death penalty is that there are prosecutors who want the win MORE than they want the truth. We know innocent people have been put to death.
The question is that are the few cases of innocent people being killed enough to let many many more dagerous people go free.
This was an excellent commentary. My favorite to date. Thank you.
Hate to tell you Andrew ... Sean Penn's acting career peeked with "Fast times at Ridgemont High" and it was straight down into the toilet from there.
Thanks . Great review. I had similar thoughts about Cider House Rules.
I am convinced the makers thought they were making a pro abortion movie but actually made an anti-abortion movie.
The children's home was saved in the end by Toby Maguire's character, the baby that was not aborted.
Most unexpected Christian movie:
Blade Runner.
Deckard had killed his whole replicant 'family'. Batty has every reason to destroy him. But in his final moments Batty forgives Deckard and spares his life.
The reason we CAN love, in spite of emotions, is that love is TO WILL AND WORK TOWARD THE GOODNESS OF OTHERS …EVEN OUR ENEMIES…we can choose to obey Gods command or reject Him who sacrificed Himself for our own sins
Great movie that made me think about Jesus before I was a Christian! I think it was in the Solomon's temple story that the Holy Spirit descended upon non believing artists to make their gifts worthy of the task at hand
Is it not more punishment than death to spend all the rest of life in prison without parole???
I struggle with Capital Punishment, not because of a moral or justice concern but because, I do not trust any government, but especially the ones we have today with that power, it tends to get abused and even if its correctly applied 90% or even 99% of the time does that justify the 1% of the time when they mess up intentionally or unintentionally?
9:47 I can't comprehend the argument that is being put forth here. I can understand the artistic element of changing the method of capital punishment but how is tragedy introduced through a more human method of death.
Regarding the death penalty… Is there anything more unjust than requiring the victims and other law abiding citizens to pay for criminals’ food, clothing, shelter, education, gym equipment, etc. Not only does the victim suffer at the hands of the criminal, they must continue to support the criminal in perpetuity at the behest of the government. Humanity is terrible at justice.
I remember watching this movie in the theater with one of my sisters.. I am 45 now.. when I was probably 17 and my sister was 19. It was a very hard film to watch I'll be honest but the message was unbelievable. I know it's a good movie because of that.
Andrew I have heard you basically say before that there haven’t been any really good Christian films recently (past 20 years or so), and that a lot of Christian films are cheesy and unrealistic. Surely the latter half of that is true, but it has made me wonder if you’ve ever seen The Tree of Life (2011) or A Hidden Life (2019) both directed by Terrence Malick? I have been listening to your show regularly since 2015/16 and I don’t think I’ve ever heard you talk about either of these movies. They are two of the most powerful films I’ve ever seen and both have deeply Christian themes and motifs. Anyone who loves movies and hasn’t seen them-seriously, watch both of them. I think there are some very solid Christian movies (some of them foreign films) that have come out in the past 20 years or so but they are generally not blockbusters and fly under the radar. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Never seems any Christians films except for the Chronicles of Narnia, but I heard the film I Still Believe starring the dude from Riverdale (KJ Apa) is really good. Never seen it so I'm going base of the numerous positive reviews thw film received. It's based on the life of Christian singer Jeremy Camp.
I heard Sister Helen give a lecture many years ago. It was at Cal State Univ, Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo campus. Very overwhelming lecture.
I had to stop and watch this video to see if you thought what I thought when I saw that film. It was obviously put out with the intention of moving people against the death penalty, but by the end of the movie, I said to my husband, “It actually just made the case FOR the death penalty!” Not just because of showing the heinousness of their crimes and the resulting suffering. But because of all the effort and tactics she tried to get him to face the truth of what he had done and take responsibility for it, she failed. The thing that finally moves him to that point was being forced to face his own imminent mortality!! Also, I so agree with your assertion that conservatives make terrible, propaganda art!
I am unsure if the liberal filmmakers knew that it was the threat of the death penalty that fundamentally causes the killer's (Sean Penn) climactic confession and repentance and possible salvation. Had he lived a full lifetime, would he have had to confront the reality of what he did? Not arguing for the death penalty, but mortality is a great motivator.
Sean Penn is in the best 'Christian movie' ever, the Tree of Life by Terrance Malick
From Jesus's own mouth,
Matthew 5:38-41 says this...
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also."
Good luck finding anyone on this page who will listen to Jesus on this subject.
Thank you so, SO MUCH for this video commentary. One of the issues I was having with Christian "art" or maybe "media" in general is just what you said at the end. They're "theories", they're not "real". They're basically how people "should" act but not how they REALLY act. It just makes it so hard when I look at the nitty gritty of the world and see the brutality of reality and am just like "well what are we supposed to do??? Pretend this part doesn't exist???"
Well done Andrew. Refreshing after all the Swamp Talk & Orange Man Bad.....
Not sure I agree with your arguments or conclusion about this movie, but I do love your honest passion for truth, art, and Christ. Thank you.
No two ways about it, you commit murder, you die. Other terrible crimes deserve similar treatment. The issue is not primarily the act of killing, but the wait in between. Death row really shouldn't be a year's wait. A few weeks to a month or two at most, then death. As with most things, it's bureaucracy that grinds the blade of justice to dullness. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. Perfect retaliation. Life for life is just.
The exact reason why most made-for-Christian movies are bad- everything is sunny and bright. Not realistic at all!
You may want to watch the movie Tramp for the Lord. It’s about a Christian woman, Corrie Ten Boone (and her family), who is sentenced to a concentration camp for hiding Jews in her home during WWII.
women in prisons, preaching, is a glimpse into a masochistic personality, the dynamics of being dominant and close up to the most vile in society in a controlled environment, its a power trip
I watched this movie in "Film Studies" in college. I can't remember a single thing about it.
I find that most leftist films (or films by leftists, I should say) are strikingly Christian in theme. Two of the latest Disney films for instance (Raya and the Last Dragon and Encanto) were very touching to me in the many parallels to various aspects of Christianity (and even pretty clearly anti-woke sentiments).
That's interesting, and a bit ironic, considering all leftists are firm atheists and extremely anti-christian.
@@itskitty808 strange as it may seem, many Christians are left-leaning and even embrace and promote woke/SJW ideas.
13:19 The only issue is that, the left wing nonsense spills through from her mouth. Jesus didn't just lift those sinners up by showing them their worth. Jesus didn't hang out with sinners because he loved sin. He hung out with them and told them to stop sinning. This is what the left always does with the message of Jesus. They twist his intent. Yes, he loves all of his children... But he does not love the way some of us, most of us, behave. He wants us to change, to do better, to accept Him. The left ALWAYS leaves that part out.
2 best Pro Life movies made by Hollyweird, Juno and Second Act.
Art is always beautiful. It is the biggest lie that people have convinced us that art can be ugly. Marcel Duchamp's urinal is not art. Jackson Pollock's paintings are not art. If this movie is art, it is the beauty of the drama that makes it beautiful. Yes, Shakespeare's plays were not rated G, but we hold them up because of the beauty. The beauty is also in the language. Today people insert the F-word into every script to put that edge on every hackneyed screen play -haphazardly written. No, my dear Mr. Klavan, the words do matter. And when the F-word is the only note you play, the sounds you make is not music. It may be noise, and it may feel like a urinal, but it is not beautiful and it is not art.
I also recommend tv series "Rectify" that deals with this subject.
Love your enemies. The most needed action in our society of today.
Nah, she is on the right track in that scene with the parents. I have a friend who is training as a spiritual councilor. It is like being a tax attorney. Say you are going through a devastating divorce, and your tax guy shows up. He isn't there so you can cry on his shoulder. "what about those back taxes?" That is his point. Spiritual advisors are supposed to answer the question of how do you enter the kingdom of heaven. They are there to save souls. And the Catholics are not those nambie evangelicals. You can't just splash a glass of water on yourself as you fall through the trap.
I remember seeing a film when I was a kid that concerned a Russian serial killer who preyed on children. He was found guilty in court, and was then taken outside and shot.
I believe it was based on a true story.
that sounds like the story of chief of secret police Beria. I probably haven't seen the movie you mentioned, but it was also touched upon the satirical but still historically rather accurate "The Death of Stalin".
As a Christian aren't we supposed to love everyone? So why is he demonizing every person who votes Democrat? This guy just oozes hypocrisy.
I'm not Christian but I do believe that if you take a life, you forfeit your own AND the punishment should fit the crime.
Yes, you can be forgiven, but not in this life.
I'm not anti-death-penalty, but yes forgiveness is supposed to be in this life.
He who says "I forgive him. Now get him out of my sight forever! Off with his head!" is not truly forgiving anyone.
St. Maria Goretti was murdered in 1902 by a madman would-be-rapist who decades later -- after a long prison sentence -- had repented and asked the girl's mother for forgiveness. She forgave him. They attended Mass together the next day. He (the killer) and the girl's mother attended the girl's canonization together.
THAT is true forgiveness.
Not "I forgive you but not in this life."
@@mattt.4395 Put that to a Parent who has just witnessed their child being shot in the head while playing in a Park.
@@oldmanfromscenetwentyfour8164 if you read my whole comment, i just gave you an example of someone who was in an even worse situation and still forgave the killer.
also, i am not claiming that everyone must forgive others immediately, especially for heinous crimes like this.
it can take years.
and you are also free to NOT forgive, if you so choose (although you're not free from the spiritual consequences of such a decision).
but don't make a mockery of forgiveness by claiming the killer "can be forgiven but not in this life."
just be honest and say you don't believe he can/should be forgiven.
Andrew Klavan has provided a brilliant review! Yes, capital punishment is just punishment for capital crime. But we have overridden biblical model controls like capital perjury, plea bargains and 2-3 witnesses.
I think propagandists can also be artists. This is actually unfortunate. Leni Riefenstahl was an artist. She was also a very talented propagandist.
As a 30 year old man I really appreciate Andrew’s wisdom. He can talk about anything and I seem to always learn something.