D&D Isn't Slow - A Response To Runesmith
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- Опубликовано: 19 авг 2024
- sorry for all the stock footage, I talked a lot.
Logan's video: • Why D&D Feels Too Slow
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![A Crap Guide to D&D [5th Edition] - Dungeon Master](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ANdG2DGm0CQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Mom? Dad? Please don't fight.
I promise I'll never play sorcerer again
Too late they’re getting a divorce and it’s all your fault.
@@InquisitorThomas all I heard is two birthdays
@@shifusdad and two Christmas es
@@shifusdad Unfortunately they’re also going to fake their death, and now Hydraxion is an Orphan.
@@InquisitorThomas why do ya gotta hit so close to home?
The real solution is to cast Haste. Silly Logan.
Tune Smith DESTROYED with FACTS and LOGIC!
What about fireball?
Thank you BigDickWizard6969
Nah, nah, *Firestorm.*
That way combat will be over in *one* turn.
C-crown of madness?
You guys aren't allowed to start drama without me.
Hello father.
Ohhh Davvy is here you know that's when it starts getting spicy
Hi dad, i'm that one bastard son you have
They’ll make diss tracks, and you can be the judge.
Quick Davvy! Use your bardic inspiration.
Player: "Don't railroad me, bro!"
DM: "The world is your oyster."
"Player: "The fuck am I supposed to do?!"
Humans are walking paradox machines lol. We always want the opposite of whatever it is that we have lol
this I very true.
I ran a sandbox style game and even with multiple story hooks some connected too peoples backstories and even a mission board in every tavern so there is always something to do.
unless I dangled a carrot in front of them the entire way to someplace they often didn't know what they wanted to do.
This is why the campaign I'm building has several locations the party can travel to right off the hop and only a few branching paths for the plot. I want my players to explore and learn about the world, don't want to railroad them, but I also want to ensure everything they're doing has some purpose or moves them at least a little closer to the next major milestone in the story.
@@3nertia or we just don't enjoy extremes. Imagine you could use your television only on mute or on 100% volume. Doubt you'd enjoy watching TV without earplugs.
@@XpVersusVista Ironically, that's the volume they play commercials at and one of the reasons I stopped watching "TV" a long time ago ;)
Fair enough lol
King response
Logan the Rune Smithy
The chad
Actually waited to watch the whole video before commenting. Based Chad energy
No, no, no, no, you were supposed to say "different strokes for different folks", or give a 👍!
Jacob: "This is my Ex-Girlfriend Spencer"
His Wife: "yup"
This deserves to get pinned
She is technically not his girlfriend anymore
She is his ex girlfriend but not his ex
I am so confused.
@@sf_jaku3276 as in she's no longer considered his girlfriend, so she's the "exgirlfriend" because of this, but the only reason why she's no longer his girlfriend is because their relationship progressed.
I like the 'slowness' of D&D. makes the game feel strategic and more like an epic story. It's Lord of the Rings, it's not Avengers
Cool to see you here! :) I’ve only just started playing but so far it’s been great. I’ve been enjoying the brainstorming and planning part. Everyone in our group is engaged so it doesn’t feel slow. Although I will admit our go-to defensive plan of tethering ourselves together has been... flawed.
@@AVspectre lol my group kinda just does stuff and sees what happens and honestly i love it, we have 0 planning
2e is very stragetic
Oh shit! Hey T1J!
@@starrynight1165 Hey! That works too! :)
DnD is slow: 5 minutes
DnD is not slow: 20-30 minutes
Oh the irony
Beat me to it
No. It's dnd.
To say something wrong takes a few seconds, to correct it can take hours. All in all jacobs response, like dnd, is neither too long nor too slow.
Ahh I get it
@@janehrahan5116 that’s what makes it ironic
Jacob basically saying "don't be mean to my friend; only I'M allowed to be mean to my friend!" is the most relatable thing in this entire video
i can't believe XPto3 is going to ABSOLUTELY EVISCERATE Runesmith
Hell yeah! Cant wait till they start making diss tracks on each other
yeah basically tore him to shreds
@@XPtoLevel3 holy shit you killed him dude
@@XPtoLevel3 give this to wizard
*dear wizard i intend to restore your power. inside this note is pure arcane power that will restore you. bye
signed,the prince of darkness*
even zedrin got in on the riping
"Logan who hurt you" is a good summation of this.
His points sound less like criticisms of the system and more like describing a bad DM
Yeah, it really sounds like a combination of bad/inexperienced DM and just not being invested in the other players. Like, my party just finished a boss fight that took two sessions to get through, and I wasn't bored for a second because I was trying to follow the ever-changing battlefield, figuring out the best ways I could use my abilities, and even getting some roleplay and character development in here and there (my very self-centered character had to decide if he was willing to risk himself to get the barbarian back up).
This should be top comment
Ima keep spamming here to boost this comment
Someone else help lol. This is the psychology answer we needed Logan to have
Or even just poor chemistry amongst players. Possibly even a combination of the two, y’know?
Yo, can we talk about how he casually slid in the fact he got MARRIED???!!! Congrats!!!
Moral of the story: D&D was the friends we made along the way
"Oh brother this guy STINKS"
-fish from spoongebob
I just wana picture both of them still living in the same house and they both are hanging outside the door of their recording.
I love listening to the party bicker and banter among themselves. It gives me an opportunity to think about what is next and review my notes. It also allows them to really feel out their characters.
I'm just here to agree. I have no relevant comment to make. Agree!! 😀
Or get a snack
This 100% this. The rune guy sounds like he just wants to play HIS story and doesn't care if the players want to do something cool cus that's not exactly what he planned. Always let your players hash shit out. Gives you time to rest and think and prepare more for the next step. Some of the greatest most fun things I've come up with as a DM have been on the fly stuff I came up with based off what the players have been discussing/arguing/bickering about.
Example: My players couldn't decide how to get past a couple guards. They ended up deciding to try and coerce one into a fist vs fist duel as a distraction. This led to me having the idea that the town has a venue exactly for this sort of thing. The rest of the session ended up being ridiculous wrestling style grudge matches in a tiny arena against anyone willing, while the one rogue went back to sneak past the now scarcely guarded door lol
Agreed, bickering is great so long as it's in character. Bickering OOC about powergaming makes me want to go do my taxes.
Kind of depends, if you're one of the party who doesn't have a stake in the conversation or has already done their part then suddenly you're just an observer for the next 10-30 minutes of conversation. I can see how people might not enjoy that situation.
My DnD group is the worst example of that first point, we easily spend 2 hours roleplaying a long rest or fucking around in town literally every session. We all complain about making no progress after the session but i think everyone secretly likes it.
Deep down we all know DnD is just an excuse for us to play pretend with our friends as adults.
@@BeinIan Most roleplaying games admit as much. It's not some deep, dark secret.
Honestly I LOVE it as a GM when my players just starts interacting as a group between each other. I get to sit there and watch the entertainment between these lovely characters and I don't have to do anything. Its honestly the best if you ask me. Sure it means they STILL don't get to the damn dungeon I spent last night fine tuning and adjusting in a panic because "OH MY GOD THEY'RE HERE AAAAAAAAAAAHH!" No they just side tracked themselves for a whole session with this other thing instead!
@@Nidrog Same as a DM my favorite part is honestly watch my players talk for like 2 hours about how they will infiltrate a building or do their mission only to fuck it up 5 min after
I... would... never... complain. That sounds like an IDEAL campaign!
Solution: All turn actions must be made in 6 seconds to feel more immersive.
“It’s your turn”
“Okay so-“
“3 seconds”
“AH UHHH AH I HIT”
“... That took you 7 seconds, you do nothing in your turn”
@@saintpoli6800 exactly! would be faster, because everyone does nothing and dies.
Maybe use that Scrabble 1 minute hourglass ("minuteglass?" I dunno.)
@@berniebroig8745
Most DM’s rush you when you’re taking too long, which is good. Like Matt Mercer does, it’s a good way to keep your players tense and thinking in a fight.
I actually have all my players take their turn at the same time. For 4 or fewer players the party gets 60 seconds to tell me what they're all doing. For 5 or more it's 90 seconds. The whole party can see the timer. They know they're on a time-crunch. Things get rushed and frantic. People make mistakes. It's chaotic and stressful. And my players love it. It requires more prep work on my part because I have to have a plan for each encounter but I think it's worth it. I also stole all of this from Professor Dungeoncraft.
"D&D isn't slow", a 21 minute response to a 6 minute video
you can analyze every scene in a movie in a 6hour video, that doesn't make the movies slow
@@Sidecutt3 it's just irony :)
@@Sidecutt3 Let's play a game called "Find a Joseph Anderson fan"
Partly because he showed parts of the original video within the response
6...21..?
2:23 Hah! You fool! Rumesmith didn't say "Different strokes for different folks," he said "Fair enough lol" in the comments section; thus, making your arguments invalid. This video is flawed. Disliked.
fair enough lol
@@itwasidio1736 you beat me to it Dio!!!
"I'm not trying to roast him or anything" shows clips of them fighting to the death
I think D&D can be slow (or fast), but that's not a bad thing. It is up to the group to decide the pace of play, not just the pace of the narrative, I would say that spending an hour and a half deciding what to do in character, is slow. But a good kind of slow that is engaging when interacting with wonderful characters as a character yourself.
Yeah, if the pacing is smooth. I don't think anyone will notice it(even they do it's already too late)
Oh hey I found my doppelganger
Waiting for Runesmith to comment "Different strokes for different folks"
he did, basically cop-out
On a more serious note: I 100% agree with what Jacob's saying.
But also, *I've been in games like Logan described as slow / boring in his video and HOO boy they are not fun.* So I know where Logan's coming from.
I agree with the spirit of what Logan's vid says, even if his examples are kinda all over the place.
Getting plopped in a world with no goal is boring. Session zeros help so much with getting that awkwardness out of the way. You don't have to railroad your players, but a good session zero can help you know where they want to go before you start.
For "auto-successes," I was discussing a topic of "the DM just lets you do something" with a few friends just tonight. It's honestly something that needs a bit more nuance, and a good example is just taking 10 or taking 20 on a task. The best example I can give, if you go through a huge dungeon crawl, you shouldn't be denied loot just because you rolled a 7 on your investigation check. (Recently in one game, we actually missed out on every single chance for loot because of this after clearing a super dangerous tower, no I'm not salty,)
If the party knows there's hidden loot, and they can't reattempt their checks, you're blue-balling them by doing something like this, and they're going to deliberate on how to find it which leads to metagaming and a big slowdown on the game. If you let them take 10/20, the trade off is they're spending more in-world time for less real-world time to guarantee they get a success. There's other situations where this could also apply; basically, give players an option to auto-succeed on something if they have the ability to be careful with it and take their time in-game.
It also works fine I feel for things that, for all intents and purposes, your character should essentially automatically succeed on. Trying to identify an abjuration spell, with an abjuration wizard in the party? He should just know what it is. It shouldn't be he rolls and fails, yet the barbarian decides to roll too without proficiency and somehow knows more about this abjuration spell than the abjuration wizard.
As for combat simplifications, one great way to do big encounters is mob combat, from the DMG. It's a bit confusing at first, but having used it, it helps avoid the overpowering surge issue while still feeling like a threat, and without ever having to roll dice which saves you a ton of time. Zee did a video on it which is how I found out about it. The general idea though is that out of a mob, overall a certain percent of attacks are going to hit on average, so you just use the size of the mob, their attack bonuses, and the AC of your targets to determine how many attacks will hit each volley. And, when they're small enough, you can break them into individual monsters without any issue and go back to normal rolls. I've run an encounter with like 10-20 gnolls via this method and it honestly went pretty smoothly, though you do need to prep a table of your party's AC vs the attack modifiers before doing so.
As for combo moves, I love the idea of them, but they honestly should just be done on your own turn and use reactions and help actions. If you think about it, people won't always know exactly what you're doing, so the best combo moves shouldn't require a lot of crosstalk--just a quick quip about "I'm doing this, do this now!" on your turn. Or you can ask your DM if the other player can do something as a reaction: playing a druid one time, our barbarian was gonna get mauled by an oversized owlbear, so on my turn, I wildshaped into a horse and asked the DM if he could grab onto me as a reaction to escape. DM just went by rule of cool.
Improvised actions are also a thing which can work great for 'combo moves' if you're creative enough.
I've been a GM for some time now, but I've never used a Session 0, as much as it sounds useful, because I don't really know what I would do in it. It doesn't really seem to me like my players want to create characters together during one session in which "nothing happens". Or does anybody have an advice on how to structure this in the best way possible to keep players engaged even without playing the game yet?
I mean. Some games will be fun. Some won't. The only constant is that they all use the same system.
It's like saying food is poisonous because you got sick. Maybe it was past expiration date. Maybe someone left it outside the fridge. Maybe someone f***ed up cooking it.
And even if none of those or any others fit, it is always more likely that the problem is with you, because food exists all around and most people aren't getting a stomachache from it.
@@kasane1337 Session 0 can be a character building time. It can be as light or as deep as you want.
In some I've had, it's just been "so, this is the setting, and this is what you know, so make sure your characters can tie into that." Or it might just just an overview of rules and limitations, making sure you know what everyone's comfort zone is. A chunk of that can be done via just text but having a session can help too.
In another, we actually had some roleplay going on to establish preexisting relationships before the game started. E.g. in session zero we worked out that my Paladin was basically something like a parole officer for the rogue, and he got the cleric to work out a contract for the rogue's early release if he offered his services to an expedition. My paladin was gonna keep an eye on him, but the higher ups also pulled a fast one on the cleric and snuck in a clause that forced her to join us on the expedition. This was all done before the DM was prepped for session 1 and didn't require any dice rolls but we did RP it out, and it was a blast.
@@Zedrinbot I feel like the Abjuration Wizard instantly recognizing ANY abjuration magic is kinda odd, in that they might not recognize a lvl 10 abjuration spell if they're say, lvl 5 or below, in that they haven't run into it, but they should get an advantage in identifying in solely because they know/understand abjuration magic vs the barbarian who probably knows nothing about magic in the first place, but yeah, if its a spell that they could/can cast if they had it in their book, they should be able to ID it more easily.
@@kasane1337 My group seems to always have a session zero just for character creation. I think part of how to keep it engaging is to encourage the players to talk about their characters as they make them. It also helps with class coordination among the party, and can help line up roleplay interactions or synergies between party members.
As an example, one of my group's campaigns had a rogue and warlock as a mischevious couple. Both had the "lovestruck" flaw that made them physically ill when they were a certain distance apart, and the rogue also took the "directionless" flaw which prevented her from ever going the right way unless she had a map, compass, or guide. Without session zero, it would've been harder to set up this dynamic between the characters, and have it pay off later when they became separated by whole planes of existence.
I feel like a lot of this video didn't even argue that "D&D isn't slow" but that "Slow isn't bad".
Because I also agree that D&D is 100% slow. But I don't think its a bad thing.
I only find DnD too slow when nobody is involved; I got into DnD via CR as many did, so I want to RP with the group, but when the other 3-5 people are apprehensive and shy, it bogs down the game, making it feel hollow, slow.
As Jacob said, arguing is still RP’ing, and entertaining than everyone just going “uh, yeah” and it zooming past us. I played in a campaign like this, where we’ve gone to like six different places with no details, talking, or real world building.
I’d rather take 5 hours chilling in a town talking with the group, than zipping through everything.
Saturday I let my party argue for an hour about whether or not they should try to take a short rest in an inter-planar craft full of xenomorphs at the risk of getting ambushed, then finally just told them to click long rest because they spent so long in one place just talking. They said it was one of the best sessions of the year and a half long campaign because they actually felt afraid to rest even though they knew it was a necessity.
@@vinyl37246
Yo a an Aliens DnD campaign? That sounds awesome!
“Honey, Its time to go to sleep now!”
100% YES! I have two players (they know eachother, picked them up through LFG) who are surprisingly competent but they butt heads nearly every time (usually from the wizard trying to be cool with the "trust me" line). I once let them argue in the middle of the dungeon on whether they should bail with the prisoners they rescued or try to clear it out, with only one of the older prisoners throwing a shoe at one of them because he was disguised as one of their captors and he was hard of hearing as a distraction. I just laid back (and kept working on the thing because it was not complete) with a smile on my face while listening to them, the session was a blast!
Seriously, it’s all about what’s fun for someone. People play games for hours, not because a game is slow, but because it’s that fun.
the virgin makeup channel drama vs the chad d and d channel disagreement
Thats the first time I saw D&D written like that
@@litiumist Same, Alpha males always write it as DEE UND DEE
@@itsethanruth dee you en gee oh en ess
ay en dee
dee arr ay gee oh en ess
@@Not_what_it_used_to_be I can't read this HAHA
@@itsethanruth he phonetically spelled out the letters of dungeons and dragons
What’s this? A discussion between two respectable and passionate content creators in a public space to inform the community from two different perspectives so viewers can form their own opinions? Nay boi it’s time to draw battle lines! Let’s all fight in the comments!
Ok, I am a bit of a typing heavyweight, and took a few honors philosophy classes in college, and my fingers dont get tired from typing, lets do this!
Logan's entire argument to me gets cut down to "why even put the obstacle there in the first place if you dont want it to actually be a challenge for your players?" and then I have to ask myself why is he playing DnD. Play a videogame or watch a movie.
Seriously. Consider the points he made. Initiative. It is turn 0 in a combat. A combat that lasts 3-8 rounds afterwards, assuming the two sides are evenly matched. He wanted to take away turn 0 from combat, and acted like he solved combat. I did like his idea of average damage, but otherwise it seems like this is just a bit dumb. He also offered little to no alternative that wouldn't be the most predictable fight pattern in the world. Some days a character is ready for anything, other days that character just needs to do his stretches first.
And then the pit. I want to crucify him on this pit here, if you want your players to jump over the pit with no consequence, why bother putting a pit there in the first place? What is its point as an obstacle? Just draw a straight line then, no fuss from the dungeon entrance to the boss room. That removes so much of the time spent on things like "traps", "monsters", and "exploring", three of the things that take up so much time. The point of the obstacle is to block you. If it doesn't take any time to bypass an obstacle, it wasn't an obstacle.
And then his thing about wanting them to follow one straight path in dialogue. I had apparently forgotten we were writing a book (although my typing would say otherwise). Players have different ideologies, from eachother, between characters, and from their DM. Unless you are doing a very thematic setup with a significant lean towards one playstyle or the other, it should be expected that dialogues deviate and waste time. If you give your players 3 options, but only one of them is correct and you want them to only pick the correct option every time, why bother giving them the other two options?
Fundamentally, DnD was not designed for speed. It was designed to be deliberate, descriptive, and creative. And there is no such thing as immediate consistent creativity. The debate of it being slow or not is incredibly moot because it is entirely based on the assumption that we are running on a tight schedule and must make a decision, or everything is high stakes and you must get rid of everything small.
Battle lines? Okay, you suck Collagen. You suck.
Speaking of “directing the party” I’ve been playing in a campaign for 2 months now and we’ve completely forgotten about the story, and now one player is building a harem and a business.
I feel like Logan's points work better when you assume the DM and players are less experienced. If you tried it with seasoned players you'd probably be accused of railroading.
good point
certainly, my group in Highschool ran into tons of slowness problems. Now 5 years later, we find it was just those 2 guys not focusing at all
As someone running their first campaign with a group who are all first timers, I've run into ALL of Logan's problems. But, I'm just letting it go for this first campaign because a lot of the time in these long conversations is players trying to figure out just what their characters can even do given the situation. And even with experienced players, if I saw that their conversation was going somewhere or they were entertained by it, fine. I'll just pull my bowl of M&Ms closer and enjoy the show.
Eh I find it all depends on how the direction is applied. Ifd a DM says "you leap up from your barstool to go help the poor npc who got shot as he entered the tavern." That's railroading. If a DM says the npc comes into the tavern just as an arrow sports from his back, what do you do?" That's just starting an encounter. You could leap up to help the guy bleeding out on the floor, you could slam the tavern door shut to keep everyone safe for a moment, or you could charge outside to confront the assailant.
@@loka7783 Or order another drink, lean back and enjoy the show. (Laughs in neutral evil)
Moral of the video-
Logan wants to play Minecraft
Me too, kid
Can you blame him, minecraft is pretty great.
Oh hey, maybe with a mod or two, minecraft could make for an interesting game to play d&d in.
Basically what I'm hearing is that Logan was frustrated and going through a railroad dm phase. It's okay, it happens to a lot of us.
Initiative can make roleplay during combat even more intense. Some of the best roleplay moments in games I've played have been moments in combat where my character had to take their action to save their loved one or best friend or whatever and roleplay a moment with that other character.
Had a moment of “overthinking it” last session. We were standing over a pit of two guard drakes with black dragon eggs inside, and I had a vested interested in retrieving one of those eggs. We were arguing about how we should approach this, if there was any way to get down there without bothering the drakes, as well as why we had to go down there in the first place. Eventually I got so frustrated (in character) that I just blasted the door lock and we killed the drakes in barely three attacks total.
Lol nice.
I swear to the gods I've seen that pic somewhere before. It's lewd.
@@ventexovakon2178 I’d be amazed if you have seen this pic! I commissioned it and I don’t believe the artist shared it anywhere. I have shared it, though. It is a little lewd, though, lol, nothing showing but the character is wearing suggestive clothing.
@@witchBoi_Connor Who's the artist?
@@ventexovakon2178 they go by FoF or @_FourOFour on Twitter. Keep in mind though they do really deep fetish art, so, y’know, look for them on incognito and don’t blame me if you don’t like what you find.
You know... the DM guide has alternate initiative rules. The rules for Mobs of creatures exist. Sorting your abilities by Action, Bonus Action, Interaction, and Reaction speeds shit up to.
Honestly it isn't that there are too many rules it is that nobody reads the books beyond Monster stat blocks, and player race/class/background.
Read the books and become familiar with stuff and you can speed shit along.
also, these back-and-forths are great for me as a DM. hearing different people's suggestions for potential problems and possible solutions helps me consider what I love, and what my players love, about the game, so I can really make the game as much fun for everyone. keep up the good work! (and grats on the wedding)
THOUSAND OF RATS RUSH AT YOU
Wizard: I cast magic hut
*party proceeds to spend an hour discussing how to get rid of the rats*
So now Jacob and Logan are talking to each other using RUclips videos.
Yes and I love it
Also I needed to hear this video
The 2020 equivalent of arguing over post-it notes
Next thing you know they're gonna start using carrier pigeons
"You posted cringe and now it's time to die" ah yes, the only universal rule that exists
Can't homebrew your way out of it. Ever.
You have one rule to follow. Break the rule, you don't deserve life. You can murder, torture, kidnap, rob, steal, commit war crimes. But you you can never post cringe.
"D&D is slow."
[Looks at the World of Darkness game they were in that once had a 3 HOUR long single round of combat]
hahahahahaha
Whaaa? How do I look this up? I find it hard to believe WoD could take 3 hours for 1 round?
@@Ajmes That specific reference was for the "New" World of Darkness/Chronicles of Darkness Vampire: The Requiem First Edition. There were, if I'm remembering correctly, 15+ players and just as many NPC retainers. At least half of the Players had relatively high amounts of experience (75 - 100+ experience). Many had all kinds of things that allowed triggered reactions to other people's actions. There was a meeting an site declared an Elysium. One group of Players showed up and attempted to kidnap or kill other others and brought a squad of (as they became jokingly referred to) Herculean Olympian Luchador Ghouls (retainers built under the rules of the time that were basically hyper specialized grapples). Two or three other players stepped out of the room for various reasons and were gone in character for like 5 - 15 minutes or so. About a minute after they exited all hell broke loose. A SINGLE round was resolved before the end of the night was called and the entire scene then had to be resolved over email before the next session would happen weeks later.
That said there was also an instance years earlier for World of Darkness/Old World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade where a similar thing happened with way less players, only 5 and like 7 NPCs. It was basically Night of the Three Stooges and happened because older editions of World of Darkness (I don't know about the most recent editions) have a combat system that flows as: Roll dice to hit, determine damage, roll soak, difference between soak total and damage total is damage taken.
A D&D equivalent would be if instead of having just AC, you had something like 1d12-1 Damage Resistance or HP Regen. Enemy does 10 damage and you roll 12? They do nothing to you instead.
Chronicles has had some similar effects, but they're resulting from other mechanics rather than Soak as Soak was dropped for Chronicles in part to help with how hyper "swingy" combat could become (ie: someone hits you with a truck and you're like, "nah, I'm fine." but Bob hits you with a beer bottle, does the wod equivalent of a Crit, and you fail so hard you're instantly down for the count).
@@amysakalov6915 5 players and 7 NPCs? Wow. My personal experience between old WOD and 5E with similar numbers of players and enemies is that old WOD was much quicker. Maybe we played oWOD more efficiently than is typical, I dunno I only played with 1 group.
As a first-time DM, I absolutely love the moments my players spend debating and arguing with each other because they used to be so hesitant to role-play
Also gives you the chance to just relax, and they'll never know you have nothing prepared as they roleplay with each other for an hour.
8:00
So.... he wants the King to emerge from the waters and give laminated paper?
"Different strokes for different folks."
~Logan, eventually
"DnD is slow"
I suppose you have never seen a party panicking over a boss?
When I was watching Logan's video, I was like “eh, not sure about that one part. But this is genius, dude”
Then I watched your video and was immediately like “lol, this Logan guy doesn’t know anything about dnd”
this is the best response video to anything ever, I know that partly you refused to flame him because he is your friend but more response videos need to be like this where you don't necessarily say they are wrong just point out flaws in what they say and argue your side without taking them out of context. Actually politics also needs to be like this.
Idk I personally feel like this whole video was just saying "not all groups are that way". You can't definitively say that DND is fast or slow because different people have different standards.
The only point made that I think holds up on a more objective look is the initiative roll is fine.
He made the point that arguing for an hour is roleplay but missed the point that it is slow.
Omg this is what politics should be
I like the idea of Jacob making this video 5ft away from Logan while muttering to himself
I could see that actually being the case.
At least 6ft for pandemic safety.
Uh oh, that's within melee range!
Didnt know you married Logan already, Grats for the wedding XD
D&d will always seem 'slow' for the DM since they can see and accurately judge the progress of the party since they know what is coming next. For the players who have little to no clue, they won't even be counting the time spent unless there is an imbalance of participation.
In terms of the maths, that's just something that takes time but it is necessary to keep things fair. Pre-rolling npc initiatives, rolling damage and attack at the same time will save a bit of time though.
Talking/discussion during combat does slow it down but if everyone is participating in some way, that time is fun time which could lead to some amazing what the heck plans of action or objective changes.
I agree. As i player I've never found the discussion part boring, it's one of the core feature of the game for many player. As i dm i find can find discussion boring because I can't partecipate, so i get worried the the player are bored too.
I think what Logan said can be summed in one phrase Jacob said
"It sounds like you wanna play a videogame"
Very little rolling, semi railroad story, and the narrator speeding things up
And that just isn't DnD (my opinion, of course)
You're right. I played a game where the DM ran the game like Logan. It was a railroad that I jumped into at level 5 with no indication what to prepare for and the Demon Lord I was immediately thrown up against ALWAYS hit me for one-sixth of my hit points and I was dying at a record pace.
Funnily enough I shared Logan's video with my group then they asked me what in it I agreed with and their response was "yeah that just sounds like a video game, if you start changing core rules then why are you playing DnD?"
You can change core rules. Just don't do it in a db and boring video game way
@@TheGamingBDGR Can definitely change core rules. I love about 80-90% of 5e's core rulebook. And some stuff I absolutely hate. You can have it both ways
unless you're playing Baldur's Gate
Congrats on the wedding, now in video's you don't have to say "This is my fiance, Spencer" everytime you introduce her
Edit: WHOA didn't expect the heart thanks
Well now he always has to say: "this is my wife Spencer"
"Mah wife"
~Jacob, emulating John Malkovich
"This is my ex-girlfriend, Spencer." - Jacob Prob
Yah, since you edited the comment the heart went away.
'it sounds like he wants to just play a video game'
Sounds more like watching a movie to me. Video games get choices
If this is how Runesmith always DMs, he sounds like a "wannabe novelist" DM. I hope he's grown out of that by now.
*mention of SR intitiative*
Me: goes catatonic at the thought of having to roll for initiative EVERY ROUND
i would love to do that, it would make the initiative stat all that much more important but that WOULD be a slog
Some quick ways to speed up combat as a DM:
- Roll initiative for the enemies in advance (when you set up the encounter).
- Have your players' AC written down so you don't have to ask if an attack hits
- Tell the players when they're next in the initiative when you get to the player before them so they don't have to start planning their turn when it's their turn (maybe the next two, depending on how many players you have)
This comment needs more likes
My only addition is that pay attention to and write down AC modifiers. Doing this on a phone or such (in silent mode, obviously) is a quick and clean way to ensure that you don't accidentally hit when you shouldn't and vice versa.
This, also let players both take turns simultaneously when share initiative say theres enemy player a player b enemy have play a and b go at the same time
"Have your players' AC written down so you don't have to ask if an attack hits"
But Consider: It's fun asking the wizard if a 25 hits. :P
the letting the next player know they're coming up is amazing. its the simple things
I know D&D isn't slow but that upload sechedule is a different story.
You spitting facts
Yup
Someone get a fire extinguisher
@@kendrickrochelanzot2053 Cause they spittin fire
Holy shit you fucking killed him dude xD
It's interesting, as a player I'm so used to my groups taking ages to decide what to do on their turn. Now, as a new DM with new players, we're absolutely blitzing through turns. I'm talking 15-20 seconds per turn. In 5E. It's nuts, I was sweating from processing initiative order and marking off health on enemies so fast, and my players were still feeling like we should move faster. I'm like guys, I LOVE that we aren't dragging out our turns, but my god, I'm making mistakes that end up hurting you guys because I'm forgetting things. Let's shoot for like, 30 second to 1 minute turns, give me a dang minute to mark the damage you dealt to the enemy lol.
how does your group achieve this unholy speed?
all in the groove, thinking ahead, knowing the rules?
@@SteveAkaDarktimes well, it's a combination of factors. In my experience, more experienced players often actually take longer turns, because they're considering more possible outcomes and weighing the pros and cons of different options, and thinking farther ahead. In the game I'm running as a first time DM, the players are new, so they aren't always striving to make the most optimal choices, and are hungry for action. Furthermore, as a new DM I'm not exactly presenting them with incredibly complex combats because I don't want to overwhelm them; instead I've been slowly ramping things up, adding a new mechanic or feature into the combat here and there. I feel like most turns in most combats should take between 30 seconds to 90 seconds of game time, but exceptions have to be made when there's super hard choices.
rolling dice and conversing to figure out our plan is my favorite part of the game :,(
I'd kinda like to see "Speed D&D." Like speed chess. Just a good DM with a bunch of well experienced players zapping through every encounter at max speed.
that would be sick
I've seen people speed run the Tomb of Horrors. It's fun to see how players build characters to essentially cheese every trap or encounter, or just run past it if they're faster.
Seems like that's a lot how classic D&D went for experienced players, yeh. It does sound fun.
It’s now officially undeniable:
Jacob is turning into Cody. Response videos and everything.
Oh shit, the prophecy is true
Except for a hatred for Monks.
"now guys me and logan are good friends and we dont hate on each other so this is just gonna be me giving my take on these opinions" *Proceeds to blot out the sun with the shade in this video
About speeding up damage rolls:
You can just roll both the attack and damage at once.
If you fail the attack roll, just ignore the damage one.
If you succeed, you now have the damage already rolled (except for crits, but those are fine to extend for a bit)
If you use the "max damage+roll" thing then even for crits you don't need it.
@@chukyuniqul Oh yeah, totally forgot about that (even though I use it myself)
I can imagine them being in different rooms of the same house typing up their scriptsand giving each other dagger eyes. Then going and playing a game togeather
I feel like these two are always passive-aggressively trying to battle each other through their videos.
There's a lot of repressed hate.
@@CharalamposKoundourakis Repressed hate? No way, not at all. It is really just two besties who love each other but have different opinions on the game, and they allow those differences in opinion to exist and breathe, which is healthy as fuck.
@@AuntieHauntieGames I'm just being cheeky 😝
It's called cross advertising
It really sounds more like Burnout than an actual problem
"In dungeons and dragons, your choices are permanent."
Well that's really DM's fiat.
No it's not. Just out of context.
Spending 1.5 hours arguing in and out of character about how to phrase a question that the DM has to answer because he gave us the Deck of Many Things and one of us pulled that card is still gameplay!
Until you have to go to sleep and you miss out on the epic boss fight
@@thegreatandmightyseff7214 But how hyped would you be for next session :O
Its in a week
@@thegreatandmightyseff7214 Yes the perfect amount of time to build up tention: you get some theories going and will strategise, and then BOOM back in action.
@@thegreatandmightyseff7214 Hahaha, weekly D&D. Good joke. But yeah a month or two is a pretty long time but talking about the question was great fun and better than any team building exercise ever.
"Here's the game now, what are you going to do?"
Terrible form for session 1. I've done it, it doesn't work. Even if they ask for a sandbox, they're lying. Give them impetus.
Yep, I've been there. My first ever Session was a glorious clusterfuck. Dropped into a town with "What do you want to do?", except our Plot hook wasn't acessible yet because the DM wanted us to Explore his World. What happened is that the Party Split three-way because everyone was interested in something else, two groups independently investigated a Statue on the map Where people acted suspiciously to get the Party to move away because the DM was breaking character to shoo the Party away because the monument had no Story attatched and was only on the map because it looked nice.
And to top off the Session, the DM altered the Plot hook slightly from what was discussed in Session 0. We were told our characters would be joining a faction as mercenaries. We all independently made chaotic characters with issues on dealing with autority. In Session 1, we were asked to Make an oath for life Long allegiance to the faction. The party just fucking said no and left.
Man those final seconds were so wholesome and adorable and made me happy
Congrats on the wedding, I hope you and Spencer have long, happy lives with eachother ❤️
Me: Yes
Xp to lvl 3: Wait... it is 20 minutes long and it has been posted 2 minutes ago
Me: Your point?
Hol up! Did you use wish or some time spell? Kinda sus man.
@@honooryu5374 dun dun duuuuuuuuuuuun
@@battery2720 who are you?
What are you even saaaaaying
@@yebrahgamer6932 me, gamer, or honoo?
Our dads are fighting again
When it comes to the speed of the game I try to do a few things:
1.) Adventure/Travel:
- Break travel into weeks, not days. By breaking it into weeks not days it speeds the travel time by reducing dice roles, keeps the game moving forward a bit faster while also giving some challenges along the way. This method also makes more sense from a travel perspective since most of the time nothing really happens when you travel. So for a travel week the party needs to roll as a group for foraging (or use their own stock of supplies), roll for travel downtime activities (brewing potions, studying, keeping watch, etc.), and generally roleplay their interactions during travel. As a DM: I roll once for encounters for the week (hostile, friendly, or neutral), Role for weather for the week (make two roles or pick two weathers that fit the region), and role for a travel complication (a down tree needs moved, ravine that needs crossed, broken wagon wheel, military checkpoint halting the party for the day, etc.).
2.) Combat:
- When it comes to combat just having practice in keeping track of initiative and creature actions and abilities helps. When it comes to larger groups of enemies for the players I use "Squad Initiative". take the mob break them into even groups, these groups share the same initiative, apply a negative modifier for every five creatures in the squad to their initiative roll, plus their average initiative modifier score rounded down. With creatures with higher intelligence have these groups attack with intelligence (aka use strategy and tactics, like what a "squad" would use).
Players with followers, familiars, pets, or hirelings also have this rule applied to them, having their squad act on their turn. This encourages players to pick up pets, followers, etc. so that they have more to do on their turn but also use their own strategies separate from the party. A spellcaster PC with two other spellcasting NPCs can combine their power to great effect; a fighter with his own squad of soldiers can use martial based tactics like shield walls, testudo formations, arrow volleys, and spear charges.
- Initiative doesn't always have to pertain to combat; sometimes you can use initiative for complex traps or a puzzle that changes over time.
-When it comes to the players themselves remind them to think about what they want to do for their turn, before it's their turn. Table rules to put away electronics and focus on the combat section (unless their using their device for D&D beyond or similar app) also helps a ton since it forces focus on the section of the game where strategy matters.
- D&D 5e has initiative variants like "Speed Factor" (great article done by The Angry GM about how Speed Factor isn't that slow: theangrygm.com/fine-i-wrote-about-speed-factor-initiative-in-dd-5e/ ), not to mention the subtle changes to the vanilla system (like what I mentioned earlier with "squad initiative")
Also dnd isn't really about doing a lot in a session I've had sessions that my players did absolutely nothing or I've done absolutely nothing as a player and yet my players or myself still had plenty of fun so yeah it doesn't need to be fast
for me, when someone says "roll initiative'" i get hyped, but when some one just starts combat, its just not as fun
this is just my dumb opinion...
as a wise man once said: "Clickity Clackity prepare to get attackity"
@@Ian_OV wise words from a wise man
@@battery2720 that wise man is known as JoCrap
Alternative Title: "XP to Level 3 visceraly murders runesmith arguments 1 by 1" /j
Honestly I’m totally on your side when it comes to the PCs talking. I’ve just run a session and a whole ton of it was bickering and discussing plans. As long as it took, it was also interesting to see what my players thought.
But I do think that unless things are actually hitting, D&D combat is pretty slow. The party spent a full 15 mins just launching attack after attack towards a dwarf in a corner. There wasn’t much else to do, just roll. While there isn’t a clear or easy way around it you gotta admit, it can definitely be boring.
This was a very brave video. It's good to see couples able to fight over each other's ideas but still protect one another, and you looked so good in your wedding suits!
3:40
no see what happens is this:
The DM creates a meticulously designed session accounting for all possible decisions the players could make.
The players make a different decision.
The DM panics for the next 5+ hours as they struggle to bring some sense of normality to the table.
i definitely agree, i don’t think speed is the goal for d&d
The counter argument "Dnd is slow and clunky" isn't "I don't think speed is the goal for dnd" that's a strawman.
@@smalls6914 how so?
@@gingerspice231 Because you're heavily implying that the original statement is "speed is the goal of dnd" by arguing against that statement. When, in reality, the argument being made is "Dnd feels slow and clunky".
i’m sorry if i misinterpreted my point, i more closely mean the problems of d&d aren’t with the speed at which it moves rather the streamlining of rules. and i’m not necessarily trying to argue that his view is wrong that’s just how i prefer to play
@@gingerspice231 wouldn't streamlining increase speed tho? Like efficiency is directly related to speed.
Wife's comment on Runesmith's quotes: "It just sounds like he doesn't like D&D"
Exact same thing I thought the first time I saw this video.
I do single initiative per combat, first round everyone rolls initiative and that's their initiative for the entire combat, unless a major change to the combat situation occurs.
I also use scaled hit/damage table. It's pretty complicated but really simple once you figure it out. Roll to-hit and damage together, every point below target hit number reduces damage by one, every two points higher than target number increases damage by one, any special effects (poison etc) only trigger if the to-hit exceeds target number. Almost every attack does some damage and several usually do significant damage. Half of damage taken is recovered immediately after combat, assuming there is some downtime, even just a few minutes.
Slow isn't inherently bad. I think Logan is simply more of an impatient person, which I can relate too, at times. And perhaps being a DM isn't the best role for him because of it. A DM has to have A LOT of patience. That being said, Even Matt Mercer pushes on his players to keep the speed in the game and not bog things down too much. Perhaps a good chat with the players can help solve a lot?
Knowing the AC also takes the joy of figuring an enemies AC out using other people Hit or Miss
I like these longer, more serious commentaries. I'd like to see more discussions about divisive topics. Some examples off the top of my head: strength seems to arguably be the worst stat. Encumbrance rules, etc?
I agree with you whole-heartedly. Also, congrats on tying the knot!
I love that Jacob's video about why dnd doesn't take too long is literally 4x longer than Logans.
Jacob was making counterarguments, Logan was talking to a void.
Yeah, it takes no time to make a bunch of unsubstantiated points without thinking about the consequences of what you're suggesting.
My best memory in D&D was to plan for like 50 minutes about how to trap and ambush the BBEG to prevent a war.
Seeing his split in half body crushed by a heavy armor paladin was so satisfying. We ended the campain on that, no war, artifact retrieved, good memories and sick magic loot.
The best thing about all this is that it was a huge commit, not planned by the dm but he went along
It really helps as a DM to do two things.... first spend plenty of time not only explaining the setting in general terms, but giving SPECIFIC, INDIVIDUAL, knowledge of the world to each player. 2nd. Keep providing this individualized knowledge and make clear when just one player knows this thing. They get to choose to share it with the party or not and how they shape the interaction. It also reminds your players they can ask these kinds of questions to the DM about what their character might know or think or suspect and where it resolves to an X factor, roll di if you as the DM can offer some information that enriches the game. Reward players who are being creative in asking the right kinds of questions that push the plot forward. Also, reward them in other ways, extra XP, magical items, etc.
XP to Level 3: "I don't want the video to be 30 minutes long"
Me: Why is that a bad thing?
because of the youtube algorithm
I see all DMs are having strokes.
Honestly my favorite part about dnd is how jumping across a pit can become the most intense thing in the world. I think my last campaign had a situation just like this. It took us like an hour to get to the other end of a trapped hallway. But not because of the traps, but because of the fear of traps we didn't even know were there. We assumed we needed a ladder for some reason. Really we just bought the ladder and wanted to use it. Like we didn't even need it, but no it had to be the ladder. It was the funniest thing ever 😂.
I find the idea that the opening to a session is slow due to PC arguing... If you really want to side step that problem you and the others can hash out a basica plan on what you currently know, or as my group does it... at the end of the session we tell the DM the basic idea we have is going to happen in the next one, and the DM can plan for things we are planning, while maybe throwing curveballs to maybe make us decide on something different...
yeah, I have to completely agree with both Xp to level 3 and Runesmith's video about the speed of dnd. For 5 months I have Dm'd my first game with some of my closest friends and I often found the game slow when the group had nothing to push them forward or nothing to entertain them story-wise but the moment they learned about an event that happened they literally began to book it to the place of the event cause that is where the story led them to.
I'm in a Curse of Strahd campaign that just beat Strahd after 1.5 years, and pretty much all we do in that campaign is debate and discuss the best course of action. We spent a full month planning a coup in Vallaki and two weeks talking about how we wanted to approach Ravenloft. Long story short, games where you roleplay and bicker about what to do can be really engaging and explore your characters a lot. Very early on we had a werewolf captive and half of the party debated killing him versus turning him in. It created a really tense moment, where in a fit of frustration our rogue beheaded the werewolf. It had no consequences on the world at large, but it had character consequences. And it was really good.
I've done the a variant of the rule where players act at the same time and it works great.
If anyone on the same team is next to each other, they take their turns together. If there are any disagreements on strategy or order, the higher initiative player still gets to act first. You'd think it would be people talking over each other, but they actually coordinate really well, especially when it's not the whole table.
This is all technically within the rules, but at least players never take advantage of these rules unless I implement this since when you hand someone the mic on their turn they don't really care or understand how to work with other players.
I've found that there are lots of things that slow down play, whether you're a new group, or an experienced one. Personally I think it's better to just let players discuss the scenario for 5 minutes or so, and if they can't come to a decision, let each player vote and let it be decided that way. Having a consensus for players is pretty valuable, especially considering this a cooperative game.
The two players talking planning their turn while another player takes their turn won't create cross talking, it's like two players whispering a plan to each other while other stuff is going on, making the two players next turn go much faster as they already know what they are going to do.
In person, having two people talking in the background while one player is saying what they do is pretty easy.
Online, it can be a problem if the players don't realise they should be doing this through Private messages between each other and not vocally. if the players don't realise this then it will cause cross talking.
I disagree strongly. The last thing combat needs is more people unfocused.
@@leolyre168 they aren't being unfocused though, they are talking about the combat, they are being more focused
@@Missiletainn but if they're discussing their own actions, they won't be focused on the combat that's currently happening. that's the main problem. I've had this happen a lot in my decade of DMing, lots and lots of very creative, fun players completely missing key rolls and actions of other players because they were too focused on doing a cool avengers-style action mashup. This has even led to them planning a sicknasty action, then not even noticing that the target of the action just died right before their turn, requiring me, as the DM, to inform them that they probably should've been listening to the other players at the table, instead of focusing only on themselves. It's a team game, in the end, and if you're not listening to what your party is doing, then you're not playing it in a way that's fair to the other players.
@@nickromanthefencer Unless something major happens that players turn, the actual state of the combat and the information those couple players need won't be affected, they don't need to know every single detail to be concentrating on the combat, just what the final result and what the player said they were going to try, anything inbetween is superfluous, and if anything big does happen, the reaction from the rest of the players, the main player, or even the GM will be more than enough to get the whispering players to refocus. It is also especially likely that there is one player who hasn't planned out their turn and is taking longer than the others to do the same amount of things.
Okay actually real talk. I really appreciate this video. I never watched runesmiths video before watching this but I often felt like D&D was too slow both as a player and as a DM. It was something that hurt my enjoyment of the game which sucked cuz D&D is pretty fun.
Anyways this video put it in a new perspective for me, particularly the parts about decision roleplay being integral to the fun *and* specifically the part about focusing on the togetherness of playing D&D.
I think in my unique situations I had my reasons I felt less enjoyment but that might have been the actual *people* in the party, which is a different story.
Great video! :)
This was way more savage than I expected it to be 😅
But wow congrats on tying the knot dude, that's great! You looked real sharp in that suit too!
I'm sure some people enjoy him, but if this is how he runs games, it doesn't seem like I would enjoy Logan as a DM. I don't think he's actively trying to do anything to ruin the game, but it seems (even from his own videos) like he's just a very smart guy who overthinks the game, or maybe even just gets bored by it. So he tries to tinker with it too much to fix problems that aren't there.
In the campaign he DM'd on Arcane Arcade (Teseract) I don't think he did many of these things. From his videos and what he does in the campaigns he plays in he just seems a bit bored at times, and then over thought how to speed up the system of DnD so he was never bored again lol
After watching his video I decided to run the 10+modifier initiative rule and as a DM it saved a lot of time and I thought people liked it, to my surprise the players wanted to go back to the normal initiative rules because they like rolling initiative. If it's not broke don't fix it.
Quite simply, people like throwing dice.
@@Ellebeeby exactly! and, if you don't roll to determine turn order, the person with the lowest dex will literally always be last. as someone who plays barbarian (with low dex) a lot, that shit sucks always having to go after literally all my allies.
Not to mention that it removes almost all unpredictability from the turn order.
Combat's a lot more interesting when some fights have the Wizard going first, or the defender followed by every enemy before the other party members, etc etc.