I’d say mid to late 90s myself - they seemed to get the recipe just right - there were a lot of handsome cars around then, they were well equipped but not to the point of gimmickry, well built, still possible for any mechanic to maintain, and not too expensive to run. There was also more choice - not all manufacturers were on an SUV mission - you could still buy hatchbacks, saloons / sedans, and estates / station wagons.
@@frequentlycynical642 No they're not. It just seems that way when they're new. Anything with OBD2 becomes a nightmare once they get a bit of time and miles under them. Ease of repair matters, and newer cars are definitely not.
I found the 80s to early 2000's vehicles were the most reliable with just enough technology to be very reliable, but now they are so complicated with auto makers designing them with planned obsolescence. Just listen to Scotty Kilmer about how unreliable these modern cars have become.
@@opencarry3860 Indeed. I have a 2000 Buick Regal GS. Even by then, they were getting pretty complicated. I have the factory manuals, and they stack 6.5"! There are already over 3500 diagnostic codes in a 22 year old car!
It's factually wrong to say that R-134a is inferior to R-12. Both work very well, and R-134a actually works a bit better when comparing systems optimized for each. The reasons people think of R-134a as inferior are twofold. First, as a drop-in replacement for a system optimized for R-12, R-134a will in fact not work as well since it has slightly different pressure/temperature relationships and slightly different boiling temps at those different pressures. The second is the fact that car AC systems were progressively downsized, especially in 90s and early 2000s. This was to decrease parasitic drag on the engine and increase fuel economy. On those old school systems that everyone remembers so fondly, turning the AC on was like dropping a boat anchor behind you.
Yes ....for example i have BMW E38 from 95....it uses 1200 g of R134a....the facelift from 97, only halfe of that .....and modern cars 300 g....🙄but the modern sistem need every year to renew the gas and oil.....or else bye bye compressor becouse it uses smal quantity of oil too
I had a '91 S-10 pickup for a few years.... Because of it's R-12 AC system and it's comparatively-small interior space, its AC system was extremely efficient and EXTREMELY cold. Like, almost uncomfortably cold if set on MAX cooling. A put-on-a-coat kind of cold!
My buddies father had a 79 Chevy 4X4 1/2 ton and if you breathed right up at the vent you could see your breath. I've never seen air conditioning that cold ever again.
I had a 93 grand am which I’m assuming was r12. One day when me a several friends where cruising some country roads on a hot summer evening. We noticed that it was so cold that you could see your breath. Best A/C I’ve had in any car over the years
Random story: in the old days, Arab oil-rich sheiks would buy Cadillacs instead of Rolls-Royces. Cadillacs of old had massively oversized AC systems that could keep up with the desert heat. Rolls-Royce, being from a cool wet country, put tiny little AC systems in their cars. Nash was the first company with a fully integrated AC climate control system, partially since Nash also had a refrigerator division. The '68 AMC Ambassador was the first car with standard AC. AMC was, through some mergers, Nash. The Jeep Wrangler is the last car in the US to have AC optional. It's only optional on the base model 2-door, all others have it standard. Makes sense that in a Wrangler you don't always need AC. Even base model work trucks have it standard now, just like crank windows are increasingly rare.
Also most cars has under sized radiators in the past and now. This is the reason why toyota makes the most popular cars in the arab world now. They make special cars and even whole brands with bigger radiators and therefore can sell cars when BMW and merc cant. Not cars that are actually used anyway.
When I worked on a 70s RR it had factory air....it was an AC Delco system ....yanno, GM. Yup, RR bought it AC systems and its electronic ignition systems from GM before the Germans took over. Also, Cadillacs were more popular in Arab countries than RR BECAUSE NOT EVERY ARAB IS A BILLIONAIRE. If you haven't noticed, Cadillac is much cheaper than a RR.
Good ol' Nash-Kelvinator! I have a 54 Nash with factory a/c (R12). It cools fine. A little under engineered but it does the job. Shortcomings were corrected in 1955.
R12 A/C is one thing GM did extremely well. I had a variety of mid 80s-early 90s GM cars back in the day, and if you left the a/c cranked it would get meat locker cold.
My mom had a '73 Chevy Impala. The AC in that would freeze me to death! I remember piling what ever was in the car on me to hide from the blast of cold air coming from the vents, even as it might be in the upper 90s outside.
They had some great compressors the GM A-6; Ford and AMC (and most aftermarket units) used the aluminum York and cast iron Tecumseh, and Chrysler had their venerable cast iron RV2. Then they started using the light weight (usually imported) compressors…
@@frequentlycynical642 You’re thinking of the old A6 compressor, which was a beast. Both in size and performance. But by the late 80s, the bigger GM vehicles had migrated to the R4 Harrison compressor, which was much smaller and every bit as effective. Smaller GM vehicles used the V5 Harrison, which was still the same performance and on par size wise with anything else on the market.
I had the push out windshield on my 1928 Ford Model A , just like your car. It brought in a LOT of air to help cool, but there were also a few bees and other insects that made their way. Great channel Zack!
I had a 2019 Mazda3 Premium Hatchback until I traded it for a 2022 CX-5. Overall the ‘19 Mazda3 was great! But my biggest complaint was to poor performance of the A/C. It was noticeably worse then any of my previous cars. So far I’m happy to say that the A/C in my new CX-5 is more on par with what I would expect from the system.
I'm a Mazda tech. You shouldn't be having issues with any of the vehicles you guys have. If its under warranty, have your dealer look at it. Today's AC systems are fairly complex, and there's several issues that can cause poor cooling besides low freon. Also, check under the hood and see if you have 134a or 1234yf. He didn't mention it in the video, but most cars are now using 1234yf. Its extremely expensive. When it first came out a few years ago, it was $500 a pound. The price has come down since then, but its still very high. Do something before the warranty expires. Like most car companies, Mazda has a policy of no upselling warranty repairs. What that means is if a tech finds something wrong with your vehicle and the repair would be covered under warranty, they're not allowed to say anything to the customer. (This applies to everything, not just AC). You have to make the complaint. So, even if you're not sure about some type of issue, complain anyway.
Since the patents on R134a expired it is no longer considered "good for the environment" and is being phased out for R1234yf, which is in fact a flammable gas that releases highly toxic fumes if it burns, and this is somehow supposed to be "good for the environment".
Whenever the patent runs out on a refrigerant it instantly becomes "harmfull to the environment" one way or another so the government can start taxing the old and patent holder selling the new.
r1234yf sounds like a chemical compound a kid would make up to sound smart. "Uh.... Yes of course I know what the A/C in my dad's car runs on! ...r1234yf!..." The fuck is this?
EXACTLY!!! I actually see people in here defending these new refrigerants. It's so obvious, when patents run out the old stuff is deemed "dangerous", and somehow the new stuff costs 10X what the old stuff costed.
I have a 2007 Australian Ford Falcon with a big engine (Barra I6) and a big air conditioning compressor that uses modern gas... it has no problem cooling down my station wagon in the tropical and sub-tropical Australian sun (I actually never have the thermostat on full cold even in summer... usually just under half way). I think the problem is more that most modern cars have wussy little 2 litre engines with AC compressors the size of a can of beans and a condenser the size of a pizza box, rather than the gas used. Would love to cruise through death valley though.
Last time we drove through death valley it was 118 degress, at 11pm, long after sunset. Its a reason there's "death" in the name. Trip took several hours, and we only passed 2 or 3 cars the whole way through.
Errr R12 is not Freeon gas, as Freeon gas is not CFC based, Freeon gas is R134a, but this dangerous in itself in otherway's, R12 was banned because of the CFC content, the CFC doing damage to the ozone layer, me being 45 years of age remember it being big news back in the late 80's. Freeon (R134) is also used in fire extinguishers because it's non flamable where as R12 is flamable.
My 92 Prelude is still running R12 it works great. That being said, my 97 Odyssey and 00 Passat with R134a work equally as good. All 3 are still running with all the original a/c components. Just amazing to me.
I think it's because the system is designed for one or the other. I can't speak for an R12 system running R12, but my Uncle Frank once owned a 1990 Cadillac Brougham, and it just didn't feel all that cold. Then he traded that in for a brand new 2004 GMC Sierra 2500 HD, and the air conditioning was much colder. I would presume the Cadillac had been converted to R134a at some point before he purchased the car, as he purchased it used, and the car had been involved in a deer collision at a high rate of speed.
All my vehicles had R12 in the air conditioning from factory. Two of them still do. It is also in my water coolers in the house and my refrigerator. I have a large collection of R12 for service. I did convert my truck to R134 and it does get plenty cold. However, it puts more of a load on the engine than R12 did. Now as for propane it does not work as a substitute. It replaces R22. R12 is equivalent to butane, which I used in my rusted out wood powered truck. It never exploded.
In the old days, with cars having only manual ventilation speed and direction controls, an AC with R12 was actually often too much. Some cars had good knobs for mixing cold with hot air, but on other cars it was either too much hot or too much cold air. And you wanted cold air in the summer, but if you turned the ventilation to you head, you got a flew next day. If you turned it to your feet, you better had on socks. Most people ended op pressing the AC switch of on and off in intervals while driving. It always was either too hot or too cold in the car. Modern ac maybe don't get as cold, but they are far more convenient. You can drive your car in the summer in a business suit, you can also drive it in a bikini. Set it to the temprature you want, press auto and never press it again till you arrive. The new one wins this one.
You don't live in the South do you? Modern A/C in cars can be utter dog shit in the dead of summer barely doing enough to keep you cool with it set on full blast.
@@ram89572 No, I am from Northern Europe. Belgium, near Germany. Our summers indeed doesn't become as hot as yours. We do have a hotter then usual summer right now. It takes a bit for the little Honda Jazz its AC to cool the interior down. But in 38 C weather it takes like a quarter to bring it down the interior to 24 C and then the car's AC has no problem keeping it at that temprature. With a bigger engine to operarate the AC, I think the cooling would go faster as well.
@@FrightfulAccountant Well that would depend on them using a bigger a/c setup in general. Some vehicles are definitely better than other but living in a basically subtropical climate where I need a/c about 10 months out of the year I can tell you they ain't what they used to be
@@ram89572 I'm pretty sure he's agreeing with you. He's talking about the old R12, not the newer systems. Also, most cars are coming with 1234yf, not 134a. YF cools better than 134.
I've owned several older cars over the years and the AC always worked pretty good. Never had to fiddle with them. I don't know why newer cars have all that auto-temp garbage in them. It shouldn't be necessary.
I still have a brand new BMW R12 to R134a AC conversion kit somewhere in my basement. It consists of a new dryer, two adapters for the fill ports and a sticker. You (or more precisely the work shop) were supposed to drain the system from refrigerant and AC-oil. Then remove the compressor, heat it and turn it by hand to remove the oil from the compressor (R12 and R134a AC-oil is not compatible). Replacing the dryer (were obviously also a lot of AC-oil is trapped) and all O-ring gaskets in the entire AC-System (they absorb some of the AC-oil). Then put everything together and charge it with R134a. The sticker would be placed over the original AC-info sticker to inform of the altered refrigerant and its (different) amount.
I had a 1987 K5 Blazer and converting it from R12 to R134A was just changing a couple of fittings and it worked fine. That said, I have very vivid memories of my mom picking me up from school in our family's 1993 Taurus wagon, and the car was so cold inside it was like stepping into a freezer.
Just a few things. Comparing R12 to R134a is slightly difficult. (Disclaimer I don’t work with aircons ; rather with fridges but they use the same refrigeration gases). So a system that uses 1 gas cannot be directly compared to another because the gases aren’t interchangeable 1 to 1. Generally a gas change would warrant a change in compressor and expansion valve ( depending on the system). This means that you’re comparing completely different refrigeration systems in models of cars that use different gases. Where an R12 system may have been bigger, more power hungry and actually less energy efficient in the end, it may have cooled better. But manufacturers probably chose to cut costs and install smaller systems along with the gas change. Lastly PROPANE is not a crazy gas to use. It’s called R290. Butane is also used as a refrigerant and is called R600.
If you wanna compare, look at R-290 versus R-12. Propane looks even better than freon from a performance standpoint. It's just flammable, like the gasoline powered vehicle you're in. Reminder that camper vans and such drive around with much much bigger tanks of propane for heat and fuel.
R290 isnt comparable to R12 nor R134a, because it runs at 100PSI higher pressures, and heats up less when you compress it and it needs an recuperator in the suction line, rather R290 is a good replacement for R22 and R407c RC270, or cyclopropane is a real replacement for R12, it heats up a lot when compressed has similar pressures (42low/240high for Rc270 vs 35low/220hi for R12) and 20% higher volument latent heat of evaporation
@@renacimientoargentino7515 True. Great comment. 290 is great for R22, not R12. Isobutane is closer, even. But I've not heard of cyclopropane as a refrigerant, very interesting. I like the idea of using lower pressure refrigerants since they're far less likely to leak when there's smaller potential energy to do so.
@@mikafoxx2717 @mikafoxx2717 the issue of isobutane is that it has too little pressure and needs a Compressor twice the size, and doesnt heat as much nor cools down as much when compressed and expanded. RC270 or cyclopropane has similar characteristics to R12 but better, higher critical temperature, lower pressure ratio (high side vs low side ratio) higher discharge temperature, and a 25% higher volumetric cooling effect, and doesnt have a temperature slide unlike mixed refrigerants
Nash Motors made the first pratical low cost air conditioning with all components under the hood. This came out in 1954. This is the type all cars use today.
r12 was great, much more efficient than todays 134a. I know the ozone has healed some, but the question is: did it heal from R134a or was it the laws that required recovery of the gas by technicians? you see during the transition phase it was made mandatory to recover the gas from the system. before that many would vent it directly to the air when they had to work on them. so how much is because we are smarter and recover the gas compared to the switch? we will never know.
They used R-12 as a propellant in aerosol cans, which is quite literally spraying it into the atmosphere. At the very least, it was necessary to ban that usage.
R-12 is heavier than air. I never made it up to the "Ozone layer". It was all a gimmick to scare people into changing all refrigerants to R134A. There were lots of vehicles on the road using R-12 that suddenly 'needed' to be changed. Dupont made Trillions off of it, while there was another reason to scare witless people.
@@mikee2923 Yes. I have heard that the reason R12 was deemed unsafe is b/c (either DuPont or Dow which ever one invented it) Their patent had run out and they had to create something new for a new 20 year patent.
I used to have a 1978 Chevy van, it had the R 12 factory air-conditioning in it. However when I bought the car it did not have the compressor installed. When I was deciding to put the AC back into operation a friend of mine recommended that I use R 152 a, Which basically is those canned air duster’s that you get. Believe it or not that actually works pretty good as a conversion. That van blew 36° air out through the vents even in the desert.
The refrigerant today is better for the atmosphere as the old gas was harmful for the same reason. Tip, you can take a automotive or diesel course to get approved to purchase a canister. You can purchase a small can at Oreilly without the need to be approved. To be honest while the old stuff worked well, once it's gone you'll have to do research to find it, just be sure to find that leak in your AC system first or you'll be throwing your money away.
At that point, I think it would be more ethical to convert your air conditioning system to use a different refrigerant. I am not a climate change warrior or anything, but I would kind of feel weird still using something that was so aggressive that it was banned for its effects on the ozone layer. I know that you're only 1 person, and it won't reopen the ozone layer hole, but if you gotta go to the ends of the earth to find something, maybe that's a sign you should stop using it? A more hyperbolic example is leaded gasoline. There are still obscure places that still sell it, but if your car was old enough to benefit from using it, would you use it? Despite knowing the effects of leaded gas?
Dad had an r-12 license back in the day and the stuff to set it up with. Once you had all the parts in place and hoses attached you had to hook up a set of gauges to the compressor. Then you attached a vacuum pump to the fill hose and suck out all air. That vacuum was also used to pull the freon out of the can which meant any leak killed it. Fun times
I'm sorry to say that you've got it wrong. The refrigerant has nothing to do with the cooling capacity of the system as designed. The R-12 systems everyone here are talking about being so much colder in the comments were also designed during a time when systems were designed with a larger margin of error (ie more btu of cooling drawing more horsepower off the engine) combined with the addition of electric fans which were half the cfm of a belt driven fan. They also got far worse mpg while the compressor was engaged. A properly designed system using either type of refrigerant with the same design cooling power will move the same amount of heat. I could talk all day about this but I digress. Source: I'm an electro/mechanical tech that used to design and prototype refrigeration systems.
I would agree. I remember how the gas mileage went way down when you turned on your air compressor back in the day and they were much heavier compressors in fact the entire cooling system was just bigger and bulkier and the capacity of freon was Greater by volume in the system. In short they were over engineered. But having said that I doubt seriously are 12 and 134 or equal any more than 87 octane and 93 octane gasoline or equal
Yep, seems like a whole lot of delusion in this video and the comments. In my experience the reliability of R12 systems generally sucked and even when in good working order they were no better than today's R134a systems. The best performing AC of any car I've owned was a 1995 240SX, an R134a system.
Yes modern cars (from 2000s till now) do have precission in a/c design and capacity. But its slow to cool the cabin. Also when evap just slightly dirty it would hard too keep cabin cool if the car have no window tint instaled
The thing that I missed about R12 the most as a mechanic (UK) was in fault diagnosis. With R12 if the suction line line was at 32psi, the evaporator temperature was at or near to 32°F freezing. With R12 there was quite close correlation between pressure and temperature, this changed with the new-fangled 134a. Edit: I would add though that modern (ish) systems have been improved to the point that even this last summer where we have had temps over 100°F (unusual for the UK) it was still possible to get my 5 series BMW too cold for comfort.
A tip with those little vent windows... if for whatever emergency you need to break a window to get in a vehicle, don't break that one. Just because it's the smallest window doesn't mean it's the cheapest to replace... in some cases it's the most expensive and hardest to find.
7:13 Propane is also called R290, and is in serious use as a refrigerant by manufacturers, not just by people struggling to get their R12 car AC working. Many small home air conditioners and mini-refrigerators use it. Look for the "WARNING: Flammable refrigerant used!" stickers all over them. A quick research skim suggests that it's an almost-ideal replacement for R22 as well. Please don't try this at home though. (Get a professional to do it.) I think there's rules on how much capacity a system can have before it's no longer able to be designed for R290 due to the risk of a leak causing a Very Bad Day.
Propane is actually the refrigerant of choice for a lot of large industrial establishments. It's a lot more cheap and a lot more efficient than most of the purpose-made refrigerant chemicals. But for obviously flammable reasons, systems equipped for propane as a refrigerant are not available for domestic use. As for the electronic duster cans, it's because aerosol sprays usually use refrigerants as the spray carrier. Duster cans are just aerosol sprays without the payload chemical. Although I don't see how that would work because they still use R134a due to the same laws that banned R12's use in the first place.
Normal people would buy R12 in much smaller cans (same size as the R134a cans) That large bottle was for garages that worked on cars, or dealers. I don't notice much difference in the cooling power between R12 and R134a. Back in the day, you could add R12 to your system by looking at a sight glass in the system, to check if you were low. If you saw bubbles in the sight glass, you could add R12 until there were no more bubbles. With R134a you need pressure gauges to not overfill the system. PS. I still have one of those small cans of R12.
R134 is less efficient at cooling, but can normally be corrected by just making said system slightly beefier. I also wonder why they don’t add sight glasses to car air conditioners.
My father (born in 1951) Told me about catching a cold after riding in a friends car, with the a/c cranked up. It was a 1970's car, he can't remember what make, but from what he told me, it was ice cold inside on a hot summer day. I don't think I've ever been in a car with R-12, but growing up with 90's cars in the early 2000's (converted a/c systems), I remember long toasty road trips with a/c systems that had leaked dry. With a properly charged R134a system, I've never felt the need for anything colder.
There is another option for vintage cars. R406a, aka AutoFrost or GHG-X3, is a refrigerant blend that is compatible with old R12 air conditioning systems and uses R12 standard mineral oils. Its cooling efficiency meets or exceeds the R12 it replaces. Since this is a blend, the system must be fully evacuated before installing the refrigerant and cannot be topped off because the blend ratio changes as the components leak at different rates.
And where is the recovery waste stream for this product? Does it use fittings not compatable with other refrigerants? All this 'magic replacement' stuff is BUNK. I used NONE of it in 60 + years as an a/c tech, beginning in the early 60's installing air for SEARS. R12, R134a, r1234yf. All good if used as designed. Anything else is a bad move and is likely violating clean air laws.
Butane also works as a refrigerant. Most mini fridges and ice makers are charged with it (Called R600). As far as i know, one of the highest performing vapor-compression refrigerants known to man is something like a 70/30 blend of propane/butane. It also has a nearly identical pressure-temperature curve to R134 or R22, so it can be used in common A/C systems.... ...just don't get a leak
I used propane as a top up in an R12 factory install a/c in my 92 Miata. It still worked up till the day the insurance company totalled my car out 30 years later.
Been a mechanic for 20 years. I work a lot on cab air and used to be a Reefer mechanic. I used to have a Air conditioning unit for my garage that was R12. I disabled the thermostat. The evap would frost up and almost stop the airflow. It got really cold. R502 and R401B rivaled R12. Got to check out a Thermoking reefer unit from the mid 70s. It had a half charge of R12 sill in it.
My 93 Tempo was one of the last vehicles to have R12. That was the best car I ever had when it came to a cold A/C system. You could freeze your back passengers on a 95* degree day!
The old GM B body cars with R12 didn't need a rear AC vent -- the entire car would freeze. It would blow so cold that anyone in the front seats would have their hands go numb even on a hot day
Dupont's patent ran out. So, they enlisted the government to go after R-12. They just happened to have another patented coolant in the wings which was R-134a.
My old beat-to-hell 1980 Chevy Suburban work truck had "4-60" air conditioning. Four windows rolled down, sixty MPH! It also did have vent pull handles on the sides just above the front floorboard. Worked surprisingly well, as long as you maintained a good pace. I sure miss that old battle wagon.
My father had an old car with R12. If you went on a road trip & turned the temperature down to low, the system would ice up & stop any air from coming out of the vents.
I work in the appliance repair field. The company I work for is phasing out R-134a to Butane for our refrigeration products. Someone changing out Propane for R-12 doesn't seem so far fetched. However, if there is even a small leak, i'm sure they won't appreciate the smell or the potential fire.
one of the factors too is not just the refrigerant, but the size of the compressors. An A6 compressor used in a 60's to 70's vintage GM vehicle or the huge Techumseh compressors used in Ford and Chrysler vehicles of the same era had enough displacement and BTU capacity of around 3 tons of cooling power (the tonnage rating of a cooling system is the equivalent amount of ice that would be needed)....That's enough cooling power to cool a 2000 sq/ft home! The big engines we had during that time could easily power these compressors, and since fuel economy wasn't a factor either, having that much cooling power was no big deal. Smaller engines produced less power, and fuel economy standards dictated less drag on the engine, so smaller compressors were developed that didn't cool as powerful. Most automotive AC systems these days struggle to make around 1-1.5 tons of cooling power with their smaller compressors, and the lesser efficient refrigerants as well. I owned a Chevette for a while with the R4 compressor. That is the same compressor used to cool down the full-sized GM station wagons and SUV's. Needless to say, the car stayed VERY cool inside, but you couldn't run the AC, and merge on the highway at the same time!
Smokers windows? I never heard them called that. Never even thought of them as that even when I was a smoker. I currently own two vehicles with them. I wish all cars had them.
Back in high school I had a 1985 F-150 single cab with the original R-12 system. On humid nights in Houston, it would literally get so cold that the outside of the cab would sweat like a soda can.
Just in case this helps someone. 8 Months ago I replaced the R-12 in my 33yo Nissan. Anyone intending to change up to R134a knows that they recommend a larger condenser and that the whole system needs a flush with harsh chemicals that can affect all the 30yo seals, sensors etc so you're almost up for the cost of a new system. The solution I found is R436a, a blend of R-600a (Isobutane) & R-290 (Propane) Name = "Hychill Minus 30". The attraction was that it's compatible with the R-12 Compressor Oil so no oil change & no need to flush, and it actually requires less Cubic Condenser Capacity so the system remained sealed during the change over. Also it operates at lower Head Pressure and chills faster than R-12 so it's easier on the 30yo Compressor. Anyhow, after one long hot Aussie summer and spending less than AUS$300 , I'm more than happy with the outcome. Far cooler than the R-12 ever was.
My dad owned a mazda that used r12. I remembered when he had to change a part in the ac system, the ac repairman added a modifying oil from mazda before using the r134A.
My dad stockpiled a bunch of it right before it got outlawed, still useful for a '68 Cougar he has that never gets driven. I used some in a '76 280z I used to own and it was cold I suppose, but the blower motor was pretty weak. I owned a few other cars from the R12 era but they were all ratty projects with compressor/condenser problems or just totally gutted. I sweated a lot in the cars I owned in my late teens and early 20s I guess.
I run a propane based refrigerant in my 1980's truck. The refrigerant has an ignition point 100 degrees HIGHER than R-134a, and the system uses about 1/3 as much refrigerant as R-134a. So, less likely to catch fire and won't support combustion for as long. I normally get about 38-40 degree F. temps when it's 90 degrees F. outside.
My first car was a 1973 Pontiac Catalina with a black interior, a black vinyl top, and a Frigidaire R-12 AC; in the summer, 105°F outside, probably close to 150°F inside, I would turn it on Max AC on high fan, and I could see my breath within 7 minutes. I miss those old AC units…
I used plenty of r12, you could buy it for 25 cents a can. It did work much better than 134a, seems like the duct temp was in the mid to low 30s and I saw many cars that literally blew ice. Service standards were a little weak, though - no recovery, just crack open a hose and let it vent. The craziest thing was leak detection using a Bernz-a-matic torch with a copper ring and a hose. If a leak was found, the flame would burn green. But it was simple and worked great.
04:17 The whole point of CFC's was that they are chemically inert. Breathing them is harmless, so long as you're also getting oxygen in the mix. The bad part of CFC's is that once they reach the upper atmosphere, they get broken apart by radiation from the sun, making the byproducts of that breakdown very chemically reactive. And the thing most readily available to react with up there is ozone. That's why CFC's deplete the ozone layer, which is crucial for life on earth due to the fact that it blocks almost all of the harmful ultraviolet radiation (the ionizing kind) from the sun.
Hydrocarbons (Isobutane Propane etc) is actually a fully legimate replacement for R12 and R134A, better for the enviornment and easier on your compressors too. In Australia we commonly use a specific a blend of R600a (Iso Butane) and R290 (Propane) for automotive aircon uses, you reduce gas (refill) volume by 65% so a 600gram R134A system only needs 200g of this R600a and R290 mix.
As an HVAC engineer, I feel I should point out a couple of corrections and additional info. Number 1, ozone depletion and global warming are not the same problem. The ozone layer helps block ultraviolet radiation from the sun. Without the ozone layer, we would all essentially get skin cancer or sun burn much faster. The Montreal Protocol phased out refrigerants that damaged the ozone layer. As for global warming potential, carbon dioxide has a baseline global warming potential (GWP) of 1. R-12 has a GWP of 10,200. R-134a has a GWP of 1300. Still high, but going in the right direction. However, the proliferation of refrigerant based air conditioning systems has probably offset the global warming potential reduction. Number 2, propane is a pretty effective refrigerant. So is ammonia. There are obvious reasons why we don't use them in residential or automotive air conditioners. A refrigeration system's components (compressor, expansion valve, evaporator, and condenser) have to be designed with a specific refrigerants vapor compression cycle, so you can't just put propane in an r-12 system. Propane is often used in industrial refrigeration in which a small leak is not dangerous. 3) due to its high global warming potential, R-134A has already been phased out in new light duty vehicles. R-1234yf is the new automotive refrigerant. It has a GWP of less than 1. As for performance, the new refrigerant is less efficient than R-134a, and the cooling capacity is less. So once again, barring new technology, it looks like our AC systems will take a hit.
I got an 87 dodge Dakota that has been converted to r134a long ago by my uncle before I got it, it works better than most of the newer Acura's I work on. I just can't imagine how cold it would get with the old r12 refrigerant
4:16 - Being that I joined this site back in 2006, I *still* find myself saying "_______ smoke! Don't breathe this!" anytime a topic of airborne irritants comes up.
I'm so bloody old I used to hear people say "Oh, your car's AC isn't working? It just needs a shot of freon." Nobody even called it R12. Also, what you call "smoker's windows," we called "wing windows."
I live in Phoenix, R12 is superior to r134 it's colder and operates at lower pressure so components last longer. The worst ac systems were early r134a cars and converted R12 systems.
I still use R-12 in my 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, and I live in Arizona desert; yes, I do my own AC repairs and have some R-12 cans still saved. However, my 1998 and 2004 Nissan Frontier trucks also have 4-cylinders and 5-speeds and were R134a from the factory, and these cool even better, just designed for it. We've also had 1994, 2005, and 2011 GMC Yukons with R134a, and all cooled very well.
I had to dig around to find a place with New-old-stock discontinued conversion kits for the A/C for my 92 Volvo 740 Wagon. It's nice not having to spend boatloads to recharge the system.
I had a car with a smokers' windows. I call them "cozy wings." I've also had cars that used R12. A point of this essay, that R134A doesn't work as well as R12, is right on the head. There are a number of things we as a society do because it's inexpensive (compared to other solutions) and it works. Cases in point: lead in solder. Lead-free solders in electronics just don't work as well. They develop tin whiskers that can cause shorts across the tiny integrated circuits. chromium in anti-corrosion coatings for metals. Alodine and other products on aluminum works great. It took a long time for industry to develop a secondary process that's safer for the environment (and workers!), but still uses chromium. I agree, there are some things that society should pump the brakes on to understand more about the cons of various products but the biggest reason why we put out products that are later found to pose dangers is the economics of it: it's not cost effective to search for problems in a viable solution.
My car is a 1992 Mazda 121 Metro (Aussie). Old and very fun. Uses R12 so it is a bit hard to get the AC gassed, and that is something i have been trying to do since i bought it 3 months ago.
Using Propane as a refrigerant is common place and has been done so for many years, it is completely safe in a A/C system and is more efficient than R12, however you need to follow procedure, any A/C system should be evacuated completely to remove contaminates and Oxygen from the system, " No oxygen no fire", it's that simple. Most all of your small coolers in convenience stores and elsewhere use propane, it's cheep and readily available. A small leak in a R12 system is a huge leak when converted to 134A, however Propane molecules are larger then even R12, it is simple politics that have us using 134A or now the new 1234yf, it has nothing to do with "better for the environment", it has to do with money and always has, if the people in power were truly after "better for the environment" Propane would have used from the beginning, Propane is found in nature and contaminates nothing when released into it. And just so you know 1234yf is very flammable and costs $1000 dollars per 10 lbs.
Since I had to dig to find this info, I'll share it: How big a difference is there exactly?? "R12 can blow 6 to 7 degrees cooler than R134a and is 15% more efficient." And yes, I've heard of R12! My first car had an A/C system but I was told it would never be possible to make it functional (to my dismay) because it would only accept R12 and it would cost far more than the car was worth to have it retrofitted to accept the new coolant. Now I know a retired AC tech who swears that it's (off-the-books) possible to just cram R134a into an R12 vehicle and it'll work, although a Google search provides multiple sources that say it's likely to leak out without a retrofit and also the oil used in the two systems is incompatible and you may kill your compressor if this oil isn't replaced as part of an A/C system upgrade. I'd probably still have tried it, lol. Now computer duster as an R12 substitute, that's one I hadn't heard before!
If your evaporator temp is 32 deg F, you will have cold AC, any colder and your evaporator will start to freeze up and you can get those temps out of any R134a system. Like all the other comments say R134a doesn't work as good as r12 in an r12 system, but in an r134a system r134a works just fine. Also anyone who knows AC systems will tell you less refrigerant(to a point) in the system will make it colder, so you can make adjustments until you have the best amount in retrofitting an r12 system.
I am still driving a 1993 Buick Century Special that has R12 refrigerant in it's A/C system. I bought the car new. It's still the original factory charge in it too. On a super hot 100 degree Chicago summer my Buick makes snow out of the vents.
Hello! Third world country habitant here. You can still get any amount of R-12 you want at your local refrigeration store. And it's cheap.... Like... The cheapest refrigerant you can get at the store. And yeah. That can you showed us still the standard can for refrigerants today. I remember cars with r-12 blowing literal snow out of the vents. Never seen that in any r-134 car.
When I lived in Phoenix Arizona in my 82 Camaro I never had air conditioning because nobody would sell me the R12 refrigerant. Back in 1995 to 1998 all those years in Phoenix with no AC.🔥😞
As far as propane, butane and isobutane goes, they are by far the best options rn, systems using them have been around for A LONG time, chances are your freezer runs on r290 (propane) r600 (butane) or r600a (isobutane). R134a has a GWP of 1430, R290, R600 and R600a have a GWP of 3 Even though they are flamable, there's not a lot of those gases in a car AC, experiments have even been made with replacing r134a with a mixture od 50-50 r290/r600 mix and the required charge was half of whats needed with r134a, which technically doubles the difference in GWP R290 is also quite efficient at low temperatures (the rare heatpumps running R290 have usually higher COP than R410a ones) R600a is also great for getting low temperatures, my freezer gets down to -26 Celsius, even after somewhere around 18 years of constant usage, I did freeze some 38ABW vodka in that one It amazes me how people are terrified by 600g od propane in the completly sealed AC system, yet they drive cars which have a LPG tank holding like 30kg of propane
I'm sorry I slipped over the video Content and saw my favourite feature that should absolutely make a comeback! The triangle windows, actually called Quarter Glass (or valance windows). I personally wish they came back in vogue. I used to love having them not just for the smoking benefits but for direct airflow on your body. Especially when we used to move people in a U-Haul truck and followed after. It was pretty nice to cool off quickly! Plus they were always used to break back into the car when someone left their keys in it. Lol
FYI that 134 degrees F is the temperature recorded in the shade the temperature in the sun would be WAY hotter On a vacation hike down Grand Canyon the thermometer maxed out at 145 in the sun, in the shade it was 113 or something way less impressive by comparison. The ranger affirmed the thermometer was not broken and said temperature reported across the country where there is a noticeable difference is the temperature in the shade
I just put in propane. The boiling / compression rate plus heat absorbed is almost the same as R-12 and no changes needed to the oil. As for people who are concerned about the fact that it's flammable. So is the fifteen gallons of gasoline you're riding on and in modern cars with fuel injection systems the pressures in the fuel line are very similar.
As a refrigeration mechanic I have personally tested many refrigerants. If r12 , r22 was saved for domestic refrigeration and air conditioning only, we would use a lot less energy to create refrigeration effect. I had a fish factory owner crying when we changed over r12 r22 nd r502 in his coolrooms. He had his power meter read weekly to stay on top of bills. This over doubled his power bill consumption. So I agree fire extinguishers , McDonald foam Berger trays , styrophomes , dry cleaners etc was a good ban of cfc s. But refrigeration if it costs more in energy to produce is more eco terrorism, more powers ational demand. Also R12 is many times denser than air. This ozone depletion being attacked happens in the lab. But how does it get up there. Look at jet fuel it attacks ozone too. Then there was the conspiracy of DU PONTS patients running out. I believe you can still get r12 in Asia, as some boatys bought some back to Australia in their systems I worked on. Even Disney on ice had a wall of disposable r22 in their container. Disposable s were band in Australia back in 1995. This was 2007/8. The new gasses are all high demand in energy , LPG based and at least dangerous imagine a car crash. Supermarket are on CO2 systems again hi energy inputs
Yes, I remember R12, and one could also buy it at auto-parts stores in small cans, similar to ones we can buy containing R134a (for now) And, at least R12 vehicles can be converted to R134a with varying degrees of success. Unfortunately, the R12 and R134 systems can't be converted to the new R1234 refrigerant! 😞
As someone who works with cars, and also cares about the environment, I hate that we sell bottles of r134a. While it’s much less harmful, it’s still harmful. Along with that, your AC system is enclosed, so if you’re low… you have a leak. If you have a leak, you’ll just be emptying it out into the air.
R12 is still obtainable and can work in R134a systems. Been running R12 for 12 years on a R134a setup and never changed any components. Runs colder too
I’m not entirely sure what refrigerant my 2017 Toyota uses, but I do know it has absolutely no trouble getting really cold, even in the middle of a Phoenix summer.
My 14' F150 gets to near R12 temperatures in the cab but takes a little longer (idk 5 minutes longer if I'm moving). The only reason it's possible is because everything in the AC system is oversized and the condenser has a lot of air moving it (very open grill and two large electric fans) where as an R12 system you can get super low temperatures even in a small econo-box like a Chevy Vega or Chevette and something large like a 94' F250, from word of mouth is basically a self propelled reefer unit. Modern car's in direct sunlight on a 90+ Degree Fahrenheit day such as a run of the mill Sonata doesn't even start blowing cold until they are moving at 15mph+ meanwhile an R12 car will cool down just seconds after the engine is started (93' Mercedes 300D). When it come to AC performance the best thing to do when looking for a newer vehicle is to look how well it the condenser breathes and how much engine and compressor it has.
As a HVAC tech… they change it because it’s better for the environment… or so they say. It’s likely more to just line their pockets, every time it’s more expensive from R22 to R10a to now whatever the hell the new one that’s supposed to come out within a year and is very flammable
I havent't experienced a R12 system firsthand. My friend has a 2005 Skoda Octavia, and the AC system cools really well, and gets cold really fast, even on a hot summer day. If a R134a system can work this good, I'm quite happy.
Not only that but manufacturers are selling cars with smaller radiators in some markets. Used cars imported from US and Europe overheat in the middle east. While cars sold there run ice cold.
Zack, I still fix old refrigerators (expensive built in ones) and only use the orig R12, it is readily available at virgin quality for about $70 pound. Pricey, but still the best. You joked about propane, all the new frigs take R600, which is butane/propane blend! Also, for what it's worth, Freon is a name brand by Dupont, kinda like we call facial tissue Kleenex, there is Freon 134a, Freon 22, Freon 12, etc... great video Zack, keep them coming! thanks again!
CARS WERE BETTER IN THE 80’s STICKER NOW AVAILABLE!
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No. They. Weren't. I'm 77, seen a lot of cars in my years. Modern cars are light years more reliable than the old ones.
I’d say mid to late 90s myself - they seemed to get the recipe just right - there were a lot of handsome cars around then, they were well equipped but not to the point of gimmickry, well built, still possible for any mechanic to maintain, and not too expensive to run. There was also more choice - not all manufacturers were on an SUV mission - you could still buy hatchbacks, saloons / sedans, and estates / station wagons.
@@frequentlycynical642 No they're not. It just seems that way when they're new. Anything with OBD2 becomes a nightmare once they get a bit of time and miles under them. Ease of repair matters, and newer cars are definitely not.
I found the 80s to early 2000's vehicles were the most reliable with just enough technology to be very reliable, but now they are so complicated with auto makers designing them with planned obsolescence. Just listen to Scotty Kilmer about how unreliable these modern cars have become.
@@opencarry3860 Indeed. I have a 2000 Buick Regal GS. Even by then, they were getting pretty complicated. I have the factory manuals, and they stack 6.5"! There are already over 3500 diagnostic codes in a 22 year old car!
It's factually wrong to say that R-134a is inferior to R-12. Both work very well, and R-134a actually works a bit better when comparing systems optimized for each. The reasons people think of R-134a as inferior are twofold. First, as a drop-in replacement for a system optimized for R-12, R-134a will in fact not work as well since it has slightly different pressure/temperature relationships and slightly different boiling temps at those different pressures. The second is the fact that car AC systems were progressively downsized, especially in 90s and early 2000s. This was to decrease parasitic drag on the engine and increase fuel economy. On those old school systems that everyone remembers so fondly, turning the AC on was like dropping a boat anchor behind you.
Thank you. I made a similar comment.
Yes ....for example i have BMW E38 from 95....it uses 1200 g of R134a....the facelift from 97, only halfe of that .....and modern cars 300 g....🙄but the modern sistem need every year to renew the gas and oil.....or else bye bye compressor becouse it uses smal quantity of oil too
BS... R12 was cooler
@@TheRazvy1990 Ha economical. My E32 had 2000g for R12, now down to 1500 for R134a conversion
@@alexmercer8042 yes i know ....any differences ?
R134a is already being phased out in newer cars with R1234yf. It's supposed to be less harmful to the ozone layer. BUT it's extremely flammable.
I was about to say this. It's also like 1/10th the CO2 equivalent as r134a.
There are rumors they are going to get rid of yf now too.
Then just you some damn propane at this point
And EXPENSIVE!
most new fridges are using what is basically butane now....
Zack: "So, behind me is a 1985 Chevy Cavalier wagon. And, it still runs ..."
Me: "WOW!"
Zack: "...on R12."
Me: "wow" 😂
My ‘89 Cavalier still ran on R12 when I sold it in 2004.
I got an 88 Corvette running R12
Old cavaliers will run for ever, just as long as you change the oil and don't live up north where they rot out
@@mightyloaf it’ll run but that’s about it, those cars are junkkkk.
I had a '91 S-10 pickup for a few years.... Because of it's R-12 AC system and it's comparatively-small interior space, its AC system was extremely efficient and EXTREMELY cold. Like, almost uncomfortably cold if set on MAX cooling. A put-on-a-coat kind of cold!
My buddies father had a 79 Chevy 4X4 1/2 ton and if you breathed right up at the vent you could see your breath. I've never seen air conditioning that cold ever again.
I had a 93 grand am which I’m assuming was r12. One day when me a several friends where cruising some country roads on a hot summer evening. We noticed that it was so cold that you could see your breath. Best A/C I’ve had in any car over the years
I had a 92 Silverado with R12. Ice box cold. Loved it.
I remember the old R12 systems would actually freeze the condensation around the vents in your dashboard.
I had a 03 Silverado single cab, worked more reliably than our fridge
Random story: in the old days, Arab oil-rich sheiks would buy Cadillacs instead of Rolls-Royces. Cadillacs of old had massively oversized AC systems that could keep up with the desert heat. Rolls-Royce, being from a cool wet country, put tiny little AC systems in their cars. Nash was the first company with a fully integrated AC climate control system, partially since Nash also had a refrigerator division. The '68 AMC Ambassador was the first car with standard AC. AMC was, through some mergers, Nash.
The Jeep Wrangler is the last car in the US to have AC optional. It's only optional on the base model 2-door, all others have it standard. Makes sense that in a Wrangler you don't always need AC. Even base model work trucks have it standard now, just like crank windows are increasingly rare.
Also most cars has under sized radiators in the past and now. This is the reason why toyota makes the most popular cars in the arab world now. They make special cars and even whole brands with bigger radiators and therefore can sell cars when BMW and merc cant. Not cars that are actually used anyway.
When I worked on a 70s RR it had factory air....it was an AC Delco system ....yanno, GM. Yup, RR bought it AC systems and its electronic ignition systems from GM before the Germans took over. Also, Cadillacs were more popular in Arab countries than RR BECAUSE NOT EVERY ARAB IS A BILLIONAIRE. If you haven't noticed, Cadillac is much cheaper than a RR.
@@MrSloika back in the m
day they were just as expensive as a Rolls Royce
The Sheik then drove it and rocked the Casbah. Apparently Sharif didn't like it.
Good ol' Nash-Kelvinator! I have a 54 Nash with factory a/c (R12). It cools fine. A little under engineered but it does the job. Shortcomings were corrected in 1955.
R12 A/C is one thing GM did extremely well. I had a variety of mid 80s-early 90s GM cars back in the day, and if you left the a/c cranked it would get meat locker cold.
All with the help of the biggest, heaviest compressor in the industry! LOL!
My mom had a '73 Chevy Impala. The AC in that would freeze me to death! I remember piling what ever was in the car on me to hide from the blast of cold air coming from the vents, even as it might be in the upper 90s outside.
@@frequentlycynical642 who cares, it worked.✌️
They had some great compressors the GM A-6; Ford and AMC (and most aftermarket units) used the aluminum York and cast iron Tecumseh, and Chrysler had their venerable cast iron RV2.
Then they started using the light weight (usually imported) compressors…
@@frequentlycynical642 You’re thinking of the old A6 compressor, which was a beast. Both in size and performance. But by the late 80s, the bigger GM vehicles had migrated to the R4 Harrison compressor, which was much smaller and every bit as effective. Smaller GM vehicles used the V5 Harrison, which was still the same performance and on par size wise with anything else on the market.
I had the push out windshield on my 1928 Ford Model A , just like your car. It brought in a LOT of air to help cool, but there were also a few bees and other insects that made their way. Great channel Zack!
Nothing like having a random bird flailing inside the window trapped as you go down the road swerving trying to get it out.
@@joetroutt7425 lmao this is gold
I had a 2019 Mazda3 Premium Hatchback until I traded it for a 2022 CX-5. Overall the ‘19 Mazda3 was great! But my biggest complaint was to poor performance of the A/C. It was noticeably worse then any of my previous cars. So far I’m happy to say that the A/C in my new CX-5 is more on par with what I would expect from the system.
Yeah real happy with my new cx9 my 2014 Mazda 6 gt was nice and cold though. Maybe it was just the cx5 that year
I'm in Australia, my wife's 2016 Mazda3 a/C is very good. Maybe it was your car.
I live in southeast Louisiana and my wife's 2020 Mazda3 hatch has a great air conditioner.
I have a 2018 Mazda 3 GT and the AC is freezing lol!
I'm a Mazda tech. You shouldn't be having issues with any of the vehicles you guys have. If its under warranty, have your dealer look at it. Today's AC systems are fairly complex, and there's several issues that can cause poor cooling besides low freon. Also, check under the hood and see if you have 134a or 1234yf. He didn't mention it in the video, but most cars are now using 1234yf. Its extremely expensive. When it first came out a few years ago, it was $500 a pound. The price has come down since then, but its still very high. Do something before the warranty expires.
Like most car companies, Mazda has a policy of no upselling warranty repairs. What that means is if a tech finds something wrong with your vehicle and the repair would be covered under warranty, they're not allowed to say anything to the customer. (This applies to everything, not just AC). You have to make the complaint. So, even if you're not sure about some type of issue, complain anyway.
Since the patents on R134a expired it is no longer considered "good for the environment" and is being phased out for R1234yf, which is in fact a flammable gas that releases highly toxic fumes if it burns, and this is somehow supposed to be "good for the environment".
Whenever the patent runs out on a refrigerant it instantly becomes "harmfull to the environment" one way or another so the government can start taxing the old and patent holder selling the new.
r1234yf sounds like a chemical compound a kid would make up to sound smart.
"Uh.... Yes of course I know what the A/C in my dad's car runs on! ...r1234yf!..."
The fuck is this?
@@Talondrone R1234wtf more like
EXACTLY!!! I actually see people in here defending these new refrigerants. It's so obvious, when patents run out the old stuff is deemed "dangerous", and somehow the new stuff costs 10X what the old stuff costed.
I have a 2007 Australian Ford Falcon with a big engine (Barra I6) and a big air conditioning compressor that uses modern gas... it has no problem cooling down my station wagon in the tropical and sub-tropical Australian sun (I actually never have the thermostat on full cold even in summer... usually just under half way).
I think the problem is more that most modern cars have wussy little 2 litre engines with AC compressors the size of a can of beans and a condenser the size of a pizza box, rather than the gas used.
Would love to cruise through death valley though.
Last time we drove through death valley it was 118 degress, at 11pm, long after sunset. Its a reason there's "death" in the name.
Trip took several hours, and we only passed 2 or 3 cars the whole way through.
This is very true. I have the new Ford Bronco and the A/C is SUPER cold but that is because of the very large front grill and condenser.
G Day from Australia, enjoy your BF wagon
THE NEXT EPISODE! Cigarette Lighters September 20th!
Errr R12 is not Freeon gas, as Freeon gas is not CFC based, Freeon gas is R134a, but this dangerous in itself in otherway's, R12 was banned because of the CFC content, the CFC doing damage to the ozone layer, me being 45 years of age remember it being big news back in the late 80's. Freeon (R134) is also used in fire extinguishers because it's non flamable where as R12 is flamable.
My 92 Prelude is still running R12 it works great. That being said, my 97 Odyssey and 00 Passat with R134a work equally as good. All 3 are still running with all the original a/c components. Just amazing to me.
I think it's because the system is designed for one or the other. I can't speak for an R12 system running R12, but my Uncle Frank once owned a 1990 Cadillac Brougham, and it just didn't feel all that cold. Then he traded that in for a brand new 2004 GMC Sierra 2500 HD, and the air conditioning was much colder. I would presume the Cadillac had been converted to R134a at some point before he purchased the car, as he purchased it used, and the car had been involved in a deer collision at a high rate of speed.
All my vehicles had R12 in the air conditioning from factory. Two of them still do. It is also in my water coolers in the house and my refrigerator. I have a large collection of R12 for service. I did convert my truck to R134 and it does get plenty cold. However, it puts more of a load on the engine than R12 did. Now as for propane it does not work as a substitute. It replaces R22. R12 is equivalent to butane, which I used in my rusted out wood powered truck. It never exploded.
Yet! A case could be made to going back to ammonia. When it leaks, you will know it.
In the old days, with cars having only manual ventilation speed and direction controls, an AC with R12 was actually often too much. Some cars had good knobs for mixing cold with hot air, but on other cars it was either too much hot or too much cold air. And you wanted cold air in the summer, but if you turned the ventilation to you head, you got a flew next day. If you turned it to your feet, you better had on socks. Most people ended op pressing the AC switch of on and off in intervals while driving. It always was either too hot or too cold in the car. Modern ac maybe don't get as cold, but they are far more convenient. You can drive your car in the summer in a business suit, you can also drive it in a bikini. Set it to the temprature you want, press auto and never press it again till you arrive. The new one wins this one.
You don't live in the South do you? Modern A/C in cars can be utter dog shit in the dead of summer barely doing enough to keep you cool with it set on full blast.
@@ram89572 No, I am from Northern Europe. Belgium, near Germany. Our summers indeed doesn't become as hot as yours. We do have a hotter then usual summer right now. It takes a bit for the little Honda Jazz its AC to cool the interior down. But in 38 C weather it takes like a quarter to bring it down the interior to 24 C and then the car's AC has no problem keeping it at that temprature. With a bigger engine to operarate the AC, I think the cooling would go faster as well.
@@FrightfulAccountant Well that would depend on them using a bigger a/c setup in general. Some vehicles are definitely better than other but living in a basically subtropical climate where I need a/c about 10 months out of the year I can tell you they ain't what they used to be
@@ram89572 I'm pretty sure he's agreeing with you. He's talking about the old R12, not the newer systems.
Also, most cars are coming with 1234yf, not 134a. YF cools better than 134.
I've owned several older cars over the years and the AC always worked pretty good. Never had to fiddle with them. I don't know why newer cars have all that auto-temp garbage in them. It shouldn't be necessary.
I still have a brand new BMW R12 to R134a AC conversion kit somewhere in my basement. It consists of a new dryer, two adapters for the fill ports and a sticker. You (or more precisely the work shop) were supposed to drain the system from refrigerant and AC-oil. Then remove the compressor, heat it and turn it by hand to remove the oil from the compressor (R12 and R134a AC-oil is not compatible). Replacing the dryer (were obviously also a lot of AC-oil is trapped) and all O-ring gaskets in the entire AC-System (they absorb some of the AC-oil). Then put everything together and charge it with R134a. The sticker would be placed over the original AC-info sticker to inform of the altered refrigerant and its (different) amount.
I mixed R-134a and R-12 in my 1993 Dodge truck. It's been working fine for ten years.
@@mikefrech1123 are you sure it wasn’t converted beforehand?
@@robbieginder6149 Positive.
I had a 1987 K5 Blazer and converting it from R12 to R134A was just changing a couple of fittings and it worked fine. That said, I have very vivid memories of my mom picking me up from school in our family's 1993 Taurus wagon, and the car was so cold inside it was like stepping into a freezer.
Love the k5
Just a few things.
Comparing R12 to R134a is slightly difficult.
(Disclaimer I don’t work with aircons ; rather with fridges but they use the same refrigeration gases).
So a system that uses 1 gas cannot be directly compared to another because the gases aren’t interchangeable 1 to 1.
Generally a gas change would warrant a change in compressor and expansion valve ( depending on the system).
This means that you’re comparing completely different refrigeration systems in models of cars that use different gases.
Where an R12 system may have been bigger, more power hungry and actually less energy efficient in the end, it may have cooled better. But manufacturers probably chose to cut costs and install smaller systems along with the gas change.
Lastly PROPANE is not a crazy gas to use. It’s called R290. Butane is also used as a refrigerant and is called R600.
If you wanna compare, look at R-290 versus R-12. Propane looks even better than freon from a performance standpoint. It's just flammable, like the gasoline powered vehicle you're in. Reminder that camper vans and such drive around with much much bigger tanks of propane for heat and fuel.
R290 isnt comparable to R12 nor R134a, because it runs at 100PSI higher pressures, and heats up less when you compress it and it needs an recuperator in the suction line, rather R290 is a good replacement for R22 and R407c
RC270, or cyclopropane is a real replacement for R12, it heats up a lot when compressed has similar pressures (42low/240high for Rc270 vs 35low/220hi for R12) and 20% higher volument latent heat of evaporation
@@renacimientoargentino7515
True. Great comment. 290 is great for R22, not R12. Isobutane is closer, even. But I've not heard of cyclopropane as a refrigerant, very interesting. I like the idea of using lower pressure refrigerants since they're far less likely to leak when there's smaller potential energy to do so.
@@mikafoxx2717 @mikafoxx2717 the issue of isobutane is that it has too little pressure and needs a Compressor twice the size, and doesnt heat as much nor cools down as much when compressed and expanded.
RC270 or cyclopropane has similar characteristics to R12 but better, higher critical temperature, lower pressure ratio (high side vs low side ratio) higher discharge temperature, and a 25% higher volumetric cooling effect, and doesnt have a temperature slide unlike mixed refrigerants
Nash Motors made the first pratical low cost air conditioning with all components under the hood. This came out in 1954. This is the type all cars use today.
r12 was great, much more efficient than todays 134a. I know the ozone has healed some, but the question is: did it heal from R134a or was it the laws that required recovery of the gas by technicians? you see during the transition phase it was made mandatory to recover the gas from the system. before that many would vent it directly to the air when they had to work on them. so how much is because we are smarter and recover the gas compared to the switch? we will never know.
They used R-12 as a propellant in aerosol cans, which is quite literally spraying it into the atmosphere. At the very least, it was necessary to ban that usage.
@@zacksstuff I agree with you on that but there are ulterior motives behind banning R-12, R-11, R-22 etc.
R-12 is heavier than air. I never made it up to the "Ozone layer". It was all a gimmick to scare people into changing all refrigerants to R134A. There were lots of vehicles on the road using R-12 that suddenly 'needed' to be changed. Dupont made Trillions off of it, while there was another reason to scare witless people.
@@mikee2923 Yes. I have heard that the reason R12 was deemed unsafe is b/c (either DuPont or Dow which ever one invented it)
Their patent had run out and they had to create something new for a new 20 year patent.
I used to have a 1978 Chevy van, it had the R 12 factory air-conditioning in it. However when I bought the car it did not have the compressor installed.
When I was deciding to put the AC back into operation a friend of mine recommended that I use R 152 a, Which basically is those canned air duster’s that you get. Believe it or not that actually works pretty good as a conversion. That van blew 36° air out through the vents even in the desert.
r152a is my go to retrofit refrigerant as it has a very similar pressure curve to r12 and is much cheaper than sourcing r12.
The refrigerant today is better for the atmosphere as the old gas was harmful for the same reason. Tip, you can take a automotive or diesel course to get approved to purchase a canister. You can purchase a small can at Oreilly without the need to be approved. To be honest while the old stuff worked well, once it's gone you'll have to do research to find it, just be sure to find that leak in your AC system first or you'll be throwing your money away.
At that point, I think it would be more ethical to convert your air conditioning system to use a different refrigerant.
I am not a climate change warrior or anything, but I would kind of feel weird still using something that was so aggressive that it was banned for its effects on the ozone layer. I know that you're only 1 person, and it won't reopen the ozone layer hole, but if you gotta go to the ends of the earth to find something, maybe that's a sign you should stop using it?
A more hyperbolic example is leaded gasoline. There are still obscure places that still sell it, but if your car was old enough to benefit from using it, would you use it? Despite knowing the effects of leaded gas?
Dad had an r-12 license back in the day and the stuff to set it up with. Once you had all the parts in place and hoses attached you had to hook up a set of gauges to the compressor. Then you attached a vacuum pump to the fill hose and suck out all air. That vacuum was also used to pull the freon out of the can which meant any leak killed it.
Fun times
I'm sorry to say that you've got it wrong. The refrigerant has nothing to do with the cooling capacity of the system as designed. The R-12 systems everyone here are talking about being so much colder in the comments were also designed during a time when systems were designed with a larger margin of error (ie more btu of cooling drawing more horsepower off the engine) combined with the addition of electric fans which were half the cfm of a belt driven fan. They also got far worse mpg while the compressor was engaged. A properly designed system using either type of refrigerant with the same design cooling power will move the same amount of heat. I could talk all day about this but I digress. Source: I'm an electro/mechanical tech that used to design and prototype refrigeration systems.
I would agree. I remember how the gas mileage went way down when you turned on your air compressor back in the day and they were much heavier compressors in fact the entire cooling system was just bigger and bulkier and the capacity of freon was Greater by volume in the system. In short they were over engineered. But having said that I doubt seriously are 12 and 134 or equal any more than 87 octane and 93 octane gasoline or equal
Yep, seems like a whole lot of delusion in this video and the comments. In my experience the reliability of R12 systems generally sucked and even when in good working order they were no better than today's R134a systems. The best performing AC of any car I've owned was a 1995 240SX, an R134a system.
Yes modern cars (from 2000s till now) do have precission in a/c design and capacity. But its slow to cool the cabin. Also when evap just slightly dirty it would hard too keep cabin cool if the car have no window tint instaled
Thank you for this breakdown! Now I can confirm that I'm not crazy whenever I think my car's A/C doesn't feel as cold as I think it should get
My grandma had a pre-update 1980 something Ford LTD Crown Vic. I swear that thing would have icicle’s hanging off the vents it got so cold 🥶
The thing that I missed about R12 the most as a mechanic (UK) was in fault diagnosis. With R12 if the suction line line was at 32psi, the evaporator temperature was at or near to 32°F freezing. With R12 there was quite close correlation between pressure and temperature, this changed with the new-fangled 134a. Edit: I would add though that modern (ish) systems have been improved to the point that even this last summer where we have had temps over 100°F (unusual for the UK) it was still possible to get my 5 series BMW too cold for comfort.
Every refrigerant has a temp/pressure correlation
A tip with those little vent windows... if for whatever emergency you need to break a window to get in a vehicle, don't break that one. Just because it's the smallest window doesn't mean it's the cheapest to replace... in some cases it's the most expensive and hardest to find.
This. So many cars with tiny broken windows. Main windows can be replaced in a day, if that, and are cheap to obtain, compared to fixed, tiny windows.
Makes sense....rare window, rare replacements.
7:13 Propane is also called R290, and is in serious use as a refrigerant by manufacturers, not just by people struggling to get their R12 car AC working.
Many small home air conditioners and mini-refrigerators use it. Look for the "WARNING: Flammable refrigerant used!" stickers all over them.
A quick research skim suggests that it's an almost-ideal replacement for R22 as well. Please don't try this at home though. (Get a professional to do it.)
I think there's rules on how much capacity a system can have before it's no longer able to be designed for R290 due to the risk of a leak causing a Very Bad Day.
Cyclopentane or C-Pentane. There is a big sticker on the side of my chest freezer warning it is highly flammable.
My new full sized fridge/freezer uses R290
Propane is actually the refrigerant of choice for a lot of large industrial establishments. It's a lot more cheap and a lot more efficient than most of the purpose-made refrigerant chemicals. But for obviously flammable reasons, systems equipped for propane as a refrigerant are not available for domestic use.
As for the electronic duster cans, it's because aerosol sprays usually use refrigerants as the spray carrier. Duster cans are just aerosol sprays without the payload chemical. Although I don't see how that would work because they still use R134a due to the same laws that banned R12's use in the first place.
Normal people would buy R12 in much smaller cans (same size as the R134a cans) That large bottle was for garages that worked on cars, or dealers. I don't notice much difference in the cooling power between R12 and R134a. Back in the day, you could add R12 to your system by looking at a sight glass in the system, to check if you were low. If you saw bubbles in the sight glass, you could add R12 until there were no more bubbles. With R134a you need pressure gauges to not overfill the system. PS. I still have one of those small cans of R12.
R134 is less efficient at cooling, but can normally be corrected by just making said system slightly beefier. I also wonder why they don’t add sight glasses to car air conditioners.
My father (born in 1951) Told me about catching a cold after riding in a friends car, with the a/c cranked up. It was a 1970's car, he can't remember what make, but from what he told me, it was ice cold inside on a hot summer day. I don't think I've ever been in a car with R-12, but growing up with 90's cars in the early 2000's (converted a/c systems), I remember long toasty road trips with a/c systems that had leaked dry. With a properly charged R134a system, I've never felt the need for anything colder.
There is another option for vintage cars. R406a, aka AutoFrost or GHG-X3, is a refrigerant blend that is compatible with old R12 air conditioning systems and uses R12 standard mineral oils. Its cooling efficiency meets or exceeds the R12 it replaces. Since this is a blend, the system must be fully evacuated before installing the refrigerant and cannot be topped off because the blend ratio changes as the components leak at different rates.
And where is the recovery waste stream for this product? Does it use fittings not compatable with other refrigerants? All this 'magic replacement' stuff is BUNK. I used NONE of it in 60 + years as an a/c tech, beginning in the early 60's installing air for SEARS. R12, R134a, r1234yf. All good if used as designed. Anything else is a bad move and is likely violating clean air laws.
Butane also works as a refrigerant. Most mini fridges and ice makers are charged with it (Called R600). As far as i know, one of the highest performing vapor-compression refrigerants known to man is something like a 70/30 blend of propane/butane. It also has a nearly identical pressure-temperature curve to R134 or R22, so it can be used in common A/C systems....
...just don't get a leak
I used propane as a top up in an R12 factory install a/c in my 92 Miata. It still worked up till the day the insurance company totalled my car out 30 years later.
Someone has finally given R-12 the praise it deserves. This is why I still go out of my way to buy old R-12 that my car(s) were made for.
Been a mechanic for 20 years. I work a lot on cab air and used to be a Reefer mechanic. I used to have a Air conditioning unit for my garage that was R12. I disabled the thermostat. The evap would frost up and almost stop the airflow. It got really cold. R502 and R401B rivaled R12. Got to check out a Thermoking reefer unit from the mid 70s. It had a half charge of R12 sill in it.
My 93 Tempo was one of the last vehicles to have R12. That was the best car I ever had when it came to a cold A/C system. You could freeze your back passengers on a 95* degree day!
The old GM B body cars with R12 didn't need a rear AC vent -- the entire car would freeze. It would blow so cold that anyone in the front seats would have their hands go numb even on a hot day
Dupont's patent ran out. So, they enlisted the government to go after R-12. They just happened to have another patented coolant in the wings which was R-134a.
My old beat-to-hell 1980 Chevy Suburban work truck had "4-60" air conditioning. Four windows rolled down, sixty MPH! It also did have vent pull handles on the sides just above the front floorboard. Worked surprisingly well, as long as you maintained a good pace. I sure miss that old battle wagon.
My father had an old car with R12. If you went on a road trip & turned the temperature down to low, the system would ice up & stop any air from coming out of the vents.
I work in the appliance repair field. The company I work for is phasing out R-134a to Butane for our refrigeration products. Someone changing out Propane for R-12 doesn't seem so far fetched. However, if there is even a small leak, i'm sure they won't appreciate the smell or the potential fire.
one of the factors too is not just the refrigerant, but the size of the compressors. An A6 compressor used in a 60's to 70's vintage GM vehicle or the huge Techumseh compressors used in Ford and Chrysler vehicles of the same era had enough displacement and BTU capacity of around 3 tons of cooling power (the tonnage rating of a cooling system is the equivalent amount of ice that would be needed)....That's enough cooling power to cool a 2000 sq/ft home! The big engines we had during that time could easily power these compressors, and since fuel economy wasn't a factor either, having that much cooling power was no big deal. Smaller engines produced less power, and fuel economy standards dictated less drag on the engine, so smaller compressors were developed that didn't cool as powerful. Most automotive AC systems these days struggle to make around 1-1.5 tons of cooling power with their smaller compressors, and the lesser efficient refrigerants as well. I owned a Chevette for a while with the R4 compressor. That is the same compressor used to cool down the full-sized GM station wagons and SUV's. Needless to say, the car stayed VERY cool inside, but you couldn't run the AC, and merge on the highway at the same time!
Thank Willis Carrier for air conditioning
Smokers windows? I never heard them called that. Never even thought of them as that even when I was a smoker. I currently own two vehicles with them. I wish all cars had them.
Back in high school I had a 1985 F-150 single cab with the original R-12 system. On humid nights in Houston, it would literally get so cold that the outside of the cab would sweat like a soda can.
Just in case this helps someone. 8 Months ago I replaced the R-12 in my 33yo Nissan. Anyone intending to change up to R134a knows that they recommend a larger condenser and that the whole system needs a flush with harsh chemicals that can affect all the 30yo seals, sensors etc so you're almost up for the cost of a new system.
The solution I found is R436a, a blend of R-600a (Isobutane) & R-290 (Propane) Name = "Hychill Minus 30". The attraction was that it's compatible with the R-12 Compressor Oil so no oil change & no need to flush, and it actually requires less Cubic Condenser Capacity so the system remained sealed during the change over. Also it operates at lower Head Pressure and chills faster than R-12 so it's easier on the 30yo Compressor. Anyhow, after one long hot Aussie summer and spending less than AUS$300 , I'm more than happy with the outcome. Far cooler than the R-12 ever was.
My dad owned a mazda that used r12. I remembered when he had to change a part in the ac system, the ac repairman added a modifying oil from mazda before using the r134A.
My dad stockpiled a bunch of it right before it got outlawed, still useful for a '68 Cougar he has that never gets driven. I used some in a '76 280z I used to own and it was cold I suppose, but the blower motor was pretty weak. I owned a few other cars from the R12 era but they were all ratty projects with compressor/condenser problems or just totally gutted. I sweated a lot in the cars I owned in my late teens and early 20s I guess.
I run a propane based refrigerant in my 1980's truck. The refrigerant has an ignition point 100 degrees HIGHER than R-134a, and the system uses about 1/3 as much refrigerant as R-134a. So, less likely to catch fire and won't support combustion for as long. I normally get about 38-40 degree F. temps when it's 90 degrees F. outside.
My first car was a 1973 Pontiac Catalina with a black interior, a black vinyl top, and a Frigidaire R-12 AC; in the summer, 105°F outside, probably close to 150°F inside, I would turn it on Max AC on high fan, and I could see my breath within 7 minutes. I miss those old AC units…
1:42 a locking gas cap is old? They are normal where i live
Do you have to open it with a key ?
@@426baron yes, almost every car over 5 years old has that (idk about newer ones)
I used plenty of r12, you could buy it for 25 cents a can. It did work much better than 134a, seems like the duct temp was in the mid to low 30s and I saw many cars that literally blew ice. Service standards were a little weak, though - no recovery, just crack open a hose and let it vent. The craziest thing was leak detection using a Bernz-a-matic torch with a copper ring and a hose. If a leak was found, the flame would burn green. But it was simple and worked great.
04:17 The whole point of CFC's was that they are chemically inert. Breathing them is harmless, so long as you're also getting oxygen in the mix.
The bad part of CFC's is that once they reach the upper atmosphere, they get broken apart by radiation from the sun, making the byproducts of that breakdown very chemically reactive. And the thing most readily available to react with up there is ozone. That's why CFC's deplete the ozone layer, which is crucial for life on earth due to the fact that it blocks almost all of the harmful ultraviolet radiation (the ionizing kind) from the sun.
My fridge actually uses propane as it's refrigerant. No idea why, but it seems to work well enough.
Hydrocarbons (Isobutane Propane etc) is actually a fully legimate replacement for R12 and R134A, better for the enviornment and easier on your compressors too.
In Australia we commonly use a specific a blend of R600a (Iso Butane) and R290 (Propane) for automotive aircon uses, you reduce gas (refill) volume by 65% so a 600gram R134A system only needs 200g of this R600a and R290 mix.
I rode a motorcycle through Death Valley and 118 degrees . I’m a hvac tech who works in attics. And that was some intense heat
As an HVAC engineer, I feel I should point out a couple of corrections and additional info.
Number 1, ozone depletion and global warming are not the same problem. The ozone layer helps block ultraviolet radiation from the sun. Without the ozone layer, we would all essentially get skin cancer or sun burn much faster. The Montreal Protocol phased out refrigerants that damaged the ozone layer. As for global warming potential, carbon dioxide has a baseline global warming potential (GWP) of 1. R-12 has a GWP of 10,200. R-134a has a GWP of 1300. Still high, but going in the right direction. However, the proliferation of refrigerant based air conditioning systems has probably offset the global warming potential reduction.
Number 2, propane is a pretty effective refrigerant. So is ammonia. There are obvious reasons why we don't use them in residential or automotive air conditioners. A refrigeration system's components (compressor, expansion valve, evaporator, and condenser) have to be designed with a specific refrigerants vapor compression cycle, so you can't just put propane in an r-12 system. Propane is often used in industrial refrigeration in which a small leak is not dangerous.
3) due to its high global warming potential, R-134A has already been phased out in new light duty vehicles. R-1234yf is the new automotive refrigerant. It has a GWP of less than 1. As for performance, the new refrigerant is less efficient than R-134a, and the cooling capacity is less. So once again, barring new technology, it looks like our AC systems will take a hit.
I drove through Death Valley in the height of summer with an uninsulated land rover that didn't have AC. It was quite the adventure.
I got an 87 dodge Dakota that has been converted to r134a long ago by my uncle before I got it, it works better than most of the newer Acura's I work on. I just can't imagine how cold it would get with the old r12 refrigerant
4:16 - Being that I joined this site back in 2006, I *still* find myself saying "_______ smoke! Don't breathe this!" anytime a topic of airborne irritants comes up.
Propane used in HVAC systems is called R290. It's 99.99% pure propane
R290 is porn to Hank Hill
In Europe they are actually selling a Propane/Butane mixture (R290) as drop in replacement for R12 and R134A
I'm so bloody old I used to hear people say "Oh, your car's AC isn't working? It just needs a shot of freon." Nobody even called it R12. Also, what you call "smoker's windows," we called "wing windows."
I live in Phoenix, R12 is superior to r134 it's colder and operates at lower pressure so components last longer.
The worst ac systems were early r134a cars and converted R12 systems.
I still use R-12 in my 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, and I live in Arizona desert; yes, I do my own AC repairs and have some R-12 cans still saved. However, my 1998 and 2004 Nissan Frontier trucks also have 4-cylinders and 5-speeds and were R134a from the factory, and these cool even better, just designed for it. We've also had 1994, 2005, and 2011 GMC Yukons with R134a, and all cooled very well.
I had to dig around to find a place with New-old-stock discontinued conversion kits for the A/C for my 92 Volvo 740 Wagon. It's nice not having to spend boatloads to recharge the system.
I had a car with a smokers' windows. I call them "cozy wings." I've also had cars that used R12. A point of this essay, that R134A doesn't work as well as R12, is right on the head. There are a number of things we as a society do because it's inexpensive (compared to other solutions) and it works.
Cases in point:
lead in solder. Lead-free solders in electronics just don't work as well. They develop tin whiskers that can cause shorts across the tiny integrated circuits.
chromium in anti-corrosion coatings for metals. Alodine and other products on aluminum works great. It took a long time for industry to develop a secondary process that's safer for the environment (and workers!), but still uses chromium.
I agree, there are some things that society should pump the brakes on to understand more about the cons of various products but the biggest reason why we put out products that are later found to pose dangers is the economics of it: it's not cost effective to search for problems in a viable solution.
My car is a 1992 Mazda 121 Metro (Aussie).
Old and very fun. Uses R12 so it is a bit hard to get the AC gassed, and that is something i have been trying to do since i bought it 3 months ago.
Aircon was definitely considered a luxury extra in Ireland until quite recently. We didn’t have the problem of cooling a car down…until recently
Using Propane as a refrigerant is common place and has been done so for many years, it is completely safe in a A/C system and is more efficient than R12, however you need to follow procedure, any A/C system should be evacuated completely to remove contaminates and Oxygen from the system, " No oxygen no fire", it's that simple. Most all of your small coolers in convenience stores and elsewhere use propane, it's cheep and readily available. A small leak in a R12 system is a huge leak when converted to 134A, however Propane molecules are larger then even R12, it is simple politics that have us using 134A or now the new 1234yf, it has nothing to do with "better for the environment", it has to do with money and always has, if the people in power were truly after "better for the environment" Propane would have used from the beginning, Propane is found in nature and contaminates nothing when released into it. And just so you know 1234yf is very flammable and costs $1000 dollars per 10 lbs.
R-134a & 1234yf also comes in those size tanks
Since I had to dig to find this info, I'll share it: How big a difference is there exactly?? "R12 can blow 6 to 7 degrees cooler than R134a and is 15% more efficient." And yes, I've heard of R12! My first car had an A/C system but I was told it would never be possible to make it functional (to my dismay) because it would only accept R12 and it would cost far more than the car was worth to have it retrofitted to accept the new coolant. Now I know a retired AC tech who swears that it's (off-the-books) possible to just cram R134a into an R12 vehicle and it'll work, although a Google search provides multiple sources that say it's likely to leak out without a retrofit and also the oil used in the two systems is incompatible and you may kill your compressor if this oil isn't replaced as part of an A/C system upgrade. I'd probably still have tried it, lol. Now computer duster as an R12 substitute, that's one I hadn't heard before!
If your evaporator temp is 32 deg F, you will have cold AC, any colder and your evaporator will start to freeze up and you can get those temps out of any R134a system. Like all the other comments say R134a doesn't work as good as r12 in an r12 system, but in an r134a system r134a works just fine. Also anyone who knows AC systems will tell you less refrigerant(to a point) in the system will make it colder, so you can make adjustments until you have the best amount in retrofitting an r12 system.
Psst, propane is a refrigerant. It's R290. It is a replacement for R22. It's mainly used in residential and commercial settings
I am still driving a 1993 Buick Century Special that has R12 refrigerant in it's A/C system. I bought the car new. It's still the original factory charge in it too. On a super hot 100 degree Chicago summer my Buick makes snow out of the vents.
Hello! Third world country habitant here.
You can still get any amount of R-12 you want at your local refrigeration store. And it's cheap.... Like... The cheapest refrigerant you can get at the store.
And yeah. That can you showed us still the standard can for refrigerants today.
I remember cars with r-12 blowing literal snow out of the vents. Never seen that in any r-134 car.
When I lived in Phoenix Arizona in my 82 Camaro I never had air conditioning because nobody would sell me the R12 refrigerant. Back in 1995 to 1998 all those years in Phoenix with no AC.🔥😞
As far as propane, butane and isobutane goes, they are by far the best options rn, systems using them have been around for A LONG time, chances are your freezer runs on r290 (propane) r600 (butane) or r600a (isobutane). R134a has a GWP of 1430, R290, R600 and R600a have a GWP of 3
Even though they are flamable, there's not a lot of those gases in a car AC, experiments have even been made with replacing r134a with a mixture od 50-50 r290/r600 mix and the required charge was half of whats needed with r134a, which technically doubles the difference in GWP
R290 is also quite efficient at low temperatures (the rare heatpumps running R290 have usually higher COP than R410a ones)
R600a is also great for getting low temperatures, my freezer gets down to -26 Celsius, even after somewhere around 18 years of constant usage, I did freeze some 38ABW vodka in that one
It amazes me how people are terrified by 600g od propane in the completly sealed AC system, yet they drive cars which have a LPG tank holding like 30kg of propane
I still have a ‘80s era window ac unit for my bedroom. Blows colder than any of the new ones.
I'm sorry I slipped over the video Content and saw my favourite feature that should absolutely make a comeback!
The triangle windows, actually called Quarter Glass (or valance windows).
I personally wish they came back in vogue. I used to love having them not just for the smoking benefits but for direct airflow on your body. Especially when we used to move people in a U-Haul truck and followed after. It was pretty nice to cool off quickly!
Plus they were always used to break back into the car when someone left their keys in it. Lol
FYI that 134 degrees F is the temperature recorded in the shade the temperature in the sun would be WAY hotter
On a vacation hike down Grand Canyon the thermometer maxed out at 145 in the sun, in the shade it was 113 or something way less impressive by comparison. The ranger affirmed the thermometer was not broken and said temperature reported across the country where there is a noticeable difference is the temperature in the shade
I remember our car AC spitting out chunks of ice when it would rain and the air recirculation was turned off. Fun days.
Nice Blendtec reference. I see you and appreciate you.
I just put in propane. The boiling / compression rate plus heat absorbed is almost the same as R-12 and no changes needed to the oil. As for people who are concerned about the fact that it's flammable. So is the fifteen gallons of gasoline you're riding on and in modern cars with fuel injection systems the pressures in the fuel line are very similar.
As a refrigeration mechanic I have personally tested many refrigerants. If r12 , r22 was saved for domestic refrigeration and air conditioning only, we would use a lot less energy to create refrigeration effect. I had a fish factory owner crying when we changed over r12 r22 nd r502 in his coolrooms. He had his power meter read weekly to stay on top of bills. This over doubled his power bill consumption. So I agree fire extinguishers , McDonald foam Berger trays , styrophomes , dry cleaners etc was a good ban of cfc s.
But refrigeration if it costs more in energy to produce is more eco terrorism, more powers ational demand. Also R12 is many times denser than air. This ozone depletion being attacked happens in the lab. But how does it get up there. Look at jet fuel it attacks ozone too. Then there was the conspiracy of DU PONTS patients running out.
I believe you can still get r12 in Asia, as some boatys bought some back to Australia in their systems I worked on. Even Disney on ice had a wall of disposable r22 in their container. Disposable s were band in Australia back in 1995. This was 2007/8.
The new gasses are all high demand in energy , LPG based and at least dangerous imagine a car crash. Supermarket are on CO2 systems again hi energy inputs
Yes, I remember R12, and one could also buy it at auto-parts stores in small cans, similar to ones we can buy containing R134a (for now) And, at least R12 vehicles can be converted to R134a with varying degrees of success.
Unfortunately, the R12 and R134 systems can't be converted to the new R1234 refrigerant! 😞
As someone who works with cars, and also cares about the environment, I hate that we sell bottles of r134a. While it’s much less harmful, it’s still harmful. Along with that, your AC system is enclosed, so if you’re low… you have a leak. If you have a leak, you’ll just be emptying it out into the air.
You could purchase freon in smaller cans back in the 80s. My dad bought a case of it just before it was outlawed.
R12 is still obtainable and can work in R134a systems. Been running R12 for 12 years on a R134a setup and never changed any components. Runs colder too
I’m not entirely sure what refrigerant my 2017 Toyota uses, but I do know it has absolutely no trouble getting really cold, even in the middle of a Phoenix summer.
I live in Australia, and still haven't had a car with functioning AC.
My 14' F150 gets to near R12 temperatures in the cab but takes a little longer (idk 5 minutes longer if I'm moving). The only reason it's possible is because everything in the AC system is oversized and the condenser has a lot of air moving it (very open grill and two large electric fans) where as an R12 system you can get super low temperatures even in a small econo-box like a Chevy Vega or Chevette and something large like a 94' F250, from word of mouth is basically a self propelled reefer unit. Modern car's in direct sunlight on a 90+ Degree Fahrenheit day such as a run of the mill Sonata doesn't even start blowing cold until they are moving at 15mph+ meanwhile an R12 car will cool down just seconds after the engine is started (93' Mercedes 300D). When it come to AC performance the best thing to do when looking for a newer vehicle is to look how well it the condenser breathes and how much engine and compressor it has.
Propane is the best honestly. Hank was really onto something.
As a HVAC tech… they change it because it’s better for the environment… or so they say. It’s likely more to just line their pockets, every time it’s more expensive from R22 to R10a to now whatever the hell the new one that’s supposed to come out within a year and is very flammable
I havent't experienced a R12 system firsthand. My friend has a 2005 Skoda Octavia, and the AC system cools really well, and gets cold really fast, even on a hot summer day. If a R134a system can work this good, I'm quite happy.
Propane works very well.
Well propane blends. Frostycool makes blends that just work. Just add the right amount and add oil and you are good to go.
Not only that but manufacturers are selling cars with smaller radiators in some markets.
Used cars imported from US and Europe overheat in the middle east. While cars sold there run ice cold.
Zack, I still fix old refrigerators (expensive built in ones) and only use the orig R12, it is readily available at virgin quality for about $70 pound. Pricey, but still the best. You joked about propane, all the new frigs take R600, which is butane/propane blend! Also, for what it's worth, Freon is a name brand by Dupont, kinda like we call facial tissue Kleenex, there is Freon 134a, Freon 22, Freon 12, etc... great video Zack, keep them coming! thanks again!