I have watched just about every Elden Ring lore video out there, and your theories have always hit the hardest man. You seem to figure out more than the rest, and I appreciate you for it. Keep kicking ass 🤘
I think one critical thing to note about Grandmother is that a being who is a tree can propagate in many ways: by seed, by grafting (Marika's rune is literally the exact shape of the kind of cut made in bud grafting), and most importantly - by cloning. During any of these processes any contaminant or wild spore/seed can and usually will result in unintended and unwanted results. A successful graft or clone can only happen if all parts being grafted are pure. I think Grandmother was the first, and every child of hers different types of propagated 'trees'. Marika was likely the first pure clone. Leaving part of her hair behind assured a built in weakness passed to her children. The next purest version from Marika via bud graft was Miquella. Grafting appears in many ways, in fact every method is used throughout, even including the sealing wax and graft curing by fire. It isn't always as visually straightforward - knowing a bit about grafting helps too.
Wow this is such a great theory,the best actually i have heared about the marikas sin,that's why radagon hair turned red to be a marker of the sin of her cutting her hair and not being pure
"The Scadutree is the shadow of the Erdtree." An Empyrean's shadow is their loyal guard, their protector. In a similar way, the Scadutree watches over the oppression the Golden Order is built upon.
From what I could understand, in psychoanalysis, the Shadow also seems to play a similar role. It holds back all the dark and painful memories from the conscious mind, in order to protect the Ego. It only expresses itself in moments of blind rage, uncontrollable despair, as a last line of defense.
Thorns were used on the guilty, and the Shield of the Guilty speaks of a maiden "reborn in these lands" whose eyes had been crushed by the Briars of Sin. In version 1.0 the shield is called the Sinner's Shield and explicitly states that it depicts a goddess. Clearly, Marika is the most reasonable candidate for the shield. We know Jar Saints were criminals via the dlc, and we know that Malekith is obsessed with sins as they regard Marika. I think Marika used thorns on the Fire Giants specifically because of her rage at what had been done to her. Remember: the Hornsent feared the Giants and, I believe, they were likely ruled by the Giants in the past. This would explain why Messmer uses the visage of the Fire Giants on the Wicker golems as a means of Psychological warfare. I also think that the Hornsent allied with Marika (after her Ascendance) to defeat the Fire Giants. This is corroborated by Godfrey's literal union with Serosh, the latter likely being the Storm Lord. It seems, to me, that the Zamor and the Trolls were not Marika's only allies, and we know how she treats allies (enslavement, exile, imprisonment, death, etc.) As to Radagon, he was likely a Fire Giant aspect to Marika in the Jar. Why else would she send him to subjugate Liurnia? The Astrologers and the Giants lived rather peacefully beforehand...
the trailer even shows it with the gate of divinity completely red with blood, as marika turn more masculine in front of the golden gate. gold surrounded by red. when the narrator say "gold was born" we focus on the golden gap and marika. "and too was shadow born" we focus on the gate itself, red, and marika's hair turning long and her assuming a more masculine form.
I always thought of the cross pattern behind radagon as rebar which holds concrete together during strain, sort of a depiction of radagon holding the golden order together, that he was the rebar in the golden order so to speak.
It resembles what is known as "grafting" : "a technique for attaching the stem of one plant to the roots of another, creating a single plant", They do the cross hatch on the plants like the whip did to the Shaman. So they can stick other plants to it to make them one.
Hear me out: Radagon may have technically been conceived in Marika at the Gates, but what if the 'original sin' he was born of into the physical world, was when Marika divested herself of divine responsibilities and cast out her Gloam-Eyed Queen half, in order to indulge in mortal desires of being able to actually keep her kids instead of needing to kill them for divine equilibrium. Sin is a marked deviation from divinity. That may have been when the Ruinous Flame then befell the Erdtree, and Marika was imprisoned inside it with that red thorn impaling her. As we know, red thorns are for the guilty. For some crime. And the one in her appears to be composed of the same style of matter as the Elden Ring she's suspended from. Her transgression against Order and the Greater Will could have been punished in that way, to prevent any more, but the fallout of that one action was already set in motion. Where did that Ruinous Flame go, if it burned the Erdtree? It could have gone into the Scadutree and poured into the manifesting Radagon, explaining his red hair, which is otherwise exclusive to the Fire Giant bloodline - a direct product of their holding of the Ruinous Flame in themselves. (Let's not forget the Giant's Red Braid pretty sternly establishes this connection). And as we all know, after the Erdtree was burned, in this trying time for the faith, and Marika, a hero was needed. Shortly after, Radagon appeared, debuting in the Liurnian War.
You bring up a great point likening Radagon's partial composition of shadowstuff to the Scadutree. It seems so obvious after that's pointed out. As intrinsic a connection to Marika as the Scadutree is to the Erdtree. He's been mysterious all this time, but the farthest thing possible from some rando pulled out of the aether. To further articulate on him coming from Marika's removal of Destined Death from her Gloam-Eyed Queen other half's God-Slaying Black Flame, I posit: Radagon IS the reincarnation of the GEQ half of Marika that she'd cast out from herself, the remaining half-a-god essence of her, just stripped bare of Destined Death and the GEQ persona. (Remember Uub from DBZ, a reincarnation of Buu but without the evil? The whole 'reborn but different this time' idea repeats itself in Japanese media all the time). Godslaying black flame, stripped of Destined Death, just leaves good old regular Ruinous Flame - hence the mixup of his perceived association with the Giants (for their red hair is said to be a direct product of their holding of the Ruinous Flame of the Fell God). In essence, Radagon somewhat is a 'fell god' in his own right, in that he's a 'fallen' piece of one. This would reconcile well with the memory of the one-sided conversation found in the Queen's Bed Chamber where Marika said to Radagon, "My other half, you are not quite me." Would track quite cleanly if that, 'my other half,' statement was more than just the figurative verbiage couples sometimes use. It would insinuate he actually is *almost* half of her, but still missing something. Why is it we even go to Farum Azula and take Destined Death from Maliketh? Why would the GEQ persona that's taken root in Melina, throwing herself into the Giants' Ruinous Flame, lead us there? Maliketh asks what we could possibly wish to 'kill' with it. I don't think we quite use it to 'kill,' after all. This is the pieces all trying to return to the whole, a very recurring theme. We wind up with: Marika's body, a collection of Great Runes, the remembrance of the Elden Beast (which could take the form of Marika's Hammer or the Sacred Relic Sword [which is straight up Radagon's body if you look closely at the model], so either way mementos of him), and us possessing Destined Death in rune form, too. We're quite on-the-nose reassembling a crumbled, broken god, back to whole with ALL the missing pieces of her self. That's us reforging the Elden Ring. He really was half of her. It seems so obvious, hidden in plain sight, when looking at it that way.
It makes sense. He was cursed by the giants for his red hair. Because they are all dead and impaled with ... THORNS. They all have these huge thorns, and now we know. I think Radagon is a dRagon, the Elden Ring. And when Marika took it into herself, because she melds harmoniously with things, rather than just being a vault where the ring/beast is held, it merged with her instead. This is why Marika doesn't have any golden insides or even the Eldenring as her body hangs there. The last of her power and grace given back to the tarnished. Only when Radagon comes to do we see the golden amber-like insides of the arm and head, and the glowing Elden ring inside. When Radagon falls, he exits the convenient humanoid body and grows, taking it under the darkness to form it into a weapon, something Radagon was very good at doing. Radagon is the Alien, the mind slug, taking over Marika's will. Also Also- In the DLC trailer, the person walking up the gate doesn't look like they are wearing a top. It might be Radagon before he was cursed with red hair, rather than Marika. Seduction and betrayal sounds more like his handiwork.
The image of Radagon holding "Marika's Hammer" also looks almost exactly like the Scadutree. Also one thing that goes under discussed is the idea of who exactly is naming these objects in the world? How o we know it is her hammer at all? Some might think that is too much but in a game about conquest and muddling of history it makes perfect sense to lie about a relic and it's origin. I think the Divine towers are the key to this entire game, they are created for the sole purpose of getting us to trek up a big ass tower to restore "benediction" to a rune we already claimed. The lore implications of this are massive in it's intentionality.
In Twin Peaks there was also a place like this. The Black Lodge. Where if you entered without being perfect you created a shadow and indeed that's what happened to Cooper. His shadow exited the lodge.
Funny you mention this. Twin Peaks was extremely popular in Japan. It turns out that it was a huge inspiration for many of the games that we know and love today. Including the original three team silent SH games. Specifically SH2.
I think a huge piece of the jar saint theory is that marika was never said to be in one. Her people certainly were, but we are unsure of her. I believe she is supposed to be Urd (erd/urd tree)in Norse mythology. Born of a demon and a god and one of 3 fates (3 sisters) and she was possibly a religious figure in horn sent culture with the ability to foresee the atrocities from the past, present and future and just decided to do something about it. I think you’re 100% accurate that marika created radagon with her guilt but I believe his creation was also forseen and marika may have even created him here at the divine gate and used his vessel to be lord without his knowing. The red hair could be an homage to the blood at the gates of divinity. Either way, I believe you’re onto something lol great vid
"jarring rituals" hah edit: im not aware of the mistranslations in the jar saint theory, perhaps i'll have to watch that video next, but i interpreted it as Radagon being all the bits mixed in with Shaman flesh, while marika is the Shaman flesh. Radagon would be part hornsent, part giant (explaining his red hair,) part tarnished maybe idk, a bunch of everything basically - but that's just how i interpreted it.
They exclusively stuffed their criminals in the jars tho, that's why I said it's filled with holes as Radagon cannot be all of those if he was stuffed into a jar with Marika.
@@G4meplus There was the legend of the guy who rebelled against the giants and lead the revolt: wouldn't he be a criminal for the hornsents, stuffed in jar ? Or on the contrary, a hero deserving to become a lord for their godess to come ?
I like this idea but I still think radagon was born when the elden beast came to marika giving it a way to maintain control of her which is why he is declared a loyal hound of the golden order
also radagon being cursed with red hair by the giants implies that his hair color was once something different which to me says they knew that he was abnormal to the world and marked him so everyone would know
This theory ties a bunch of stuff together nicely. Still, there are a couple of things which stand in need of further explanation (this is always the case with Elden Ring!), a perhaps an expanded theory would encompass them. The first thing that still needs explanation are the twins Messmer and Melina. Were they an accidental by-product of the divine rite? Or did Marika intentionally get with Radagon to produce them? If so, why? The second thing that still needs explanation is the role of Radagon in the war against the fire giants. In any case, excellent work here. I look forward to seeing what comes next.
For anybody curious after the DLC especially I've been craving up-to-date lore theory videos and I've found that these smaller RUclipsrs (apart from The Alchemist) are especially good: Storm King, Silent Ellipsis, Scum Mage Infa, Nameless Singer and Garrulous Goldmask. Storm King and Silent Ellipsis are among my favorite. Any more tips?
I've been saying this since the story trailer and gotten a lot of flack but I'm positive we see a male figure at the Gateway. Idk the specifics maybe saw Marika walking up and Him coming into being or something like that but I feel it in my bones that we see the " leal hound of the Golden Order" at the place of the birth of Gold and Shadow.
Well argued as always! I also think the color scheme of the scene at the Divine Gate is really important to this conversation. The main colors there are the deep purple sky, red, and gold. Your closeups of Marika even show how her hair seems to be a blend of red and gold while a braid is beginning to form. I think this is visual evidence for something like what you're arguing, and I think this all ties back to the Crucible. Considering that the Crucible's color was "red-tinged gold" and it seems to be symbolized by vines and spirals, I think Radagon emerged from Marika at the gate in the same way the Erdtree emerged out of the Crucible. Perhaps Marika was even an embodiment of the Crucible at that point. Anyway, great stuff.
Jes! it makes sense that with the ritual there was this separation. the inside of the gate is golden and the outside is dark. Someone a while ago pointed out that Marika as she is holding the threats has a more maskulin figure. Her shoulders are wider and her back looks more muscular.
Of all the lore hunters, you are honestly the closest to the truth in my opinion. Im so picky when it comes to listening to Elden Ring lore explanations and I really do think yours are in the top 3 if not the best. Its so easy to over think or dismiss the importance of every little thing in this game and you strike a good balance so far. Keep it up!
Very thought provoking as usual- While watching this I was thinking Radagon's statue looks like gravity is pulling him up a little, as if he's upside down. As if the statue is upside down. The roots are at his feet because he is the figurative root system to Marikas "tree". A root system is a sort of shadow tree.
We know Marika is a "of the same stock" as a Numen and that she is a Shaman. But it makes no sense that Numen and Shaman would be the same! All the Numen stuff is very far away from Shaman village and all shamans were dead so how can the black knife assasins be Numen then? It makes so much more sense that a Numen was an ingedient in Marikas Jar. In translation the Numen also means "rare people" and for the Hornsent who tried a lot to create their god it makes a lot of sense to try this very unusual kind of person as an ingredient with the Shaman acting as the usual melding glue. Of course the strongest evidence for Jar Saint is the snake as an ingredient. Why else would Mesmer have it's aspect inside of him if not for Marika already being tainted by it?
I just want to say that in the emerging age of AI-generated, time-wasting, shallow crap videos you and the rest of the video game lore hunters, story analysts, and deep thinkers continue to create great original content without relying on AI art, scripting, or voice overs - and I REALLY appreciate your dedication. This is really good stuff; I have not heard anyone else dive into this topic this way, and I agree with your logic here. Keep up the good work - I'm going to miss the ER lore exploration when it eventually wanes - this game goes so far beyond being just a great video game (or maybe that is what makes a truly great game).
I always thought the giant snake was the lost god of the horn sent because it acts as a physical representation of both the crucible and the jar Saint ritual.
How does theory fit with how heavily associated Radagon is with the misbegotten and the giants? The file name for the misbegotten warriors is “children of Radagon”. And the giant’s red braid directly calls out Radagon and his red hair as a curse from them.
Radagon is the only one who casts Incantations and Spells at the Same Time. If the “Hammer” would be Longer and not Cracked then it would resemble a Magic Staff containing a Golden Ember Glintstone. The Item Description says it’s Marikas Hammer… but it’s Radagons Hammer he forged Marikas Staff into an Hammer
Well Radagon did believe that things can be conjoined because he knows the origin of order he belongs to that's why he married Renalla and sabotaged his army when Marika declared war on them resulting in peace.
Wow, i really love this theory about Radagon's origins. I knew about the issues with the Marika/Radagon Jar saint theory regarding the mistranslations etc etc, but the shed snakeskin near the headless Oh Mother tree statue, and the markings on the foreheads of the jar saints linked with the picture of Rykard with a similar marking made me think there was something there i was missing. Plus, there is that giant jar in the bonny goal(if i remember correctly). All that said, Radagon being "born" when Marika ascended also seemed obvious to me. I still dont know how to reconcile Miquella/St Trina and the Brick hammer weapon description mentioning a champion "Weapon made from an ordinary stone brick. Wielded by a laborer who led a rebellion and later become a champion himself. Even among other bludgeons of its size, this weapon is especially weighty. The strength of a giant is required to wield it." There are lots of seemingly contradictory evidence and clues, but your Radagon origin theory makes a hell of a lot of sense.
Remember Radagon crusaded across the lakes so he became a champion after the rebellion. A rebellion that may have ended in castle morne. The grafted sword and Godfrey’s hounding from the lands between(leal hound of the golden order) the axe lost one side cut by a blade. Maybe a golden order great sword delivered the bow. Godfrey is Arthur and Radagon is based on lance alot
Your theory is pretty close to what I've been ruminating on. It honestly may even add to it a bit! One thing I've seen mentioned about the part of the trailer when Marika brandishes the golden threads (did anyone else notice the corpse resembles the godskins? Maybe GEQ was involved somehow too?) is that she almost looks a bit more masculine in her body shape, and her hair seems more tinged towards red at the ends. I speculated that this was how Radagon was imparted to her, which if you think in context to your theory, would meld quite easily and with way more evidence than just my random hunch.
Why do people always talk about the Godskins by equating what they wear to their actual race? The pale skin that they wear comes from gods that they have killed. What we see in the trailer would not be Godskins, but rather the gods that were routinely hunted by the Godskins. Also, why would Marika kill the Godskins when she clearly allows them to have a place of honor so close to the capital? Why is Marika missing an eye, and why does Maliketh have a gloam eye? Why are the Nox, Shamans and Greater Will all connected to the stars? Why are the stone coffin space-ship things associated with the Shamans? It seems to me that the only true answer revolves around Marika’s ability to divest herself, something we also see with Miquella. She was the Gloam-eyed Queen. She betrayed Maliketh. She orchestrated Ranni’s success. She shattered the Elden Ring not out of grief, but so that the tarnished would become Lords. She sent the rest of her children to be slaughtered by each other and the tarnished.
@@juice2307 Regarding your comment on the godskins, please tone it down a bit. It was just an observation, so I posed the question. That's what theories are made of after all. Also, I'm super new to figuring out lore as a whole, so please be kind. I didn't say what I said as a means to prove I was right, I just wanted an honest opinion because I enjoy seeing other perspectives. So, I appreciate your understanding on this. With that being said, I didn't type out my full theory with this comment, because I'm currently just observing and trying to comprehend the pieces of this story as a whole to see how things could potentially fit together. My main point in the comment above was to showcase the similarities in thinking, but I didn't expand on the circumstances around it. Please take into consideration that everything from here on is pure speculation and a thought experiment: I was toying with the idea that maybe Marika and the GEQ were once one in the same like Marika and Radagon. Because of that I think that she was the sort of "sainthood" those under the crucible were trying to bring about. This could be what the "Seduction" was? The possibility and promise of what she could bring, but of course Marika would have her own plans. Obviously I can't say for sure what exact events transpired, but I assume Marika/GEQ would leverage whatever they needed to succeed, which would lead to the betrayal at the divine gateway. This would mark the start of Marika's caged divinity. This is where my point about Radagon being imparted to Marika comes in, and that there was brief period of the 3 of them were in one body. In this time I think is when Messmer was born, because he's more indicative of Radagon (red hair and hatred for an aspect of himself) and the GEQ (she wielded flames and has connections to snakes) rather than Marika. And this could've been the catalyst of Marika beginning to see GEQ as a threat. We know for sure that she had Maliketh "defeat" the GEQ, but the nature of it is up for debate I think, considering she has slain most all her other enemies. I was curious if her defeat was more like what we see with Miquella (divesting St. Trina from himself) and Melania (Millicent being either a daughter/offshoot). Marika could've divested GEQ, Maliketh subdue her and her black flame, but then GEQ/offshoot is renamed Melina and is given a new purpose to be kindling. Again, this is HIGHLY speculative. After this point though, I pictured is when more of the base game timeline starts kicking in with the wars and stuff, and its at this point after seeing the fruits of her strength, Marika begins her unseen war on the hornsent while also getting rid of Messmer in the process. I'm sure there are a bunch of plot holes with this, which is why I present it because I don't want to assume I'm right at all. Watching lore videos has helped shape this so far, but as I'm new to this, I'm want other people's opinions so we can figure this out together. You know? It's more fun when its a discussion. So feel free to pick this apart, I'm sure there as things I'm missing that can help shift how I view the lore :D
My original thought was to the large pots, and even the absurdly large pots and Marika(numen) having been fused with a fire giant, amongst others, however; I love your explanation far more and believe it would be a more suitable reasoning. That being said, I do think that the Hornsent society used everyone available in "the-lands-between" a thing which then let Marika (divine) gather support to then slaughter them in kind. Cause I dont see The Golden Order (year 0) building the fire golems we see in the land of shadow- but fire giant support in return for helping them get back at the hornsent? I find that plausible. Then, she goes back and begins jailing and killing her former allies (I need a reason for that Radagon seal evergaol to be down in the peninsula).
Marika was a shaman and the last of them. I think she was the success where all others failed, and her children carry the aspects and influences she wanted to get rid of (think of the shed serpent skin near bonny village - the serpent is now carried by messmer). With that background I don't see any appeal in a theory that suggests the sudden and random emergence of one of the most important lore points.
I think the answer is a lot simpler. Radagon is just someone (his origin can be anything, but I am on the side of him being produced via the Jar Warriors) who had immense greed and aspired to become Marika herself as she is the embodiment of everything he worships. The cross pattern of Radagon's is typically seen with sealing/binding (the impenetrable thorns, the carian servant masks, the Elden Ring being held together, etc), so it makes me believe this allowed him to merge with Marika wholly in an attempt to take her place. He is a man with vast Charisma, but he is notably ambitious as he desired to become "complete". As a devout follower of the Golden Order, and his implied mutual Lust for Marika even before Godfrey was out of the picture, what better option is there than to become Marika herself? He spent a long time with the Carians and the Academy, so he doubtlessly learned about astrology and the histories that would not have been allowed by Marika. He more than likely found out about the Numen/Shamen and used his connection with Rennala to further prepare himself to eventually usurp Marika. When we face the final boss, there are 3 entities present: Marika, the one who guided us to the Erdtree in hopes of making us Lord (or set her free... up to interpretation, really). Radagon, an ascending God who also plays the part of Lord. We are not needed nor desired by him, so he attempts to kill us. And the Elden Beast, vassal of the Greater Will's... will. Given the current state of the Golden Order, it would not accept us, so we would need to subjugate/kill it, eliminating both the Beast and Radagon's presence from the Elden Ring.
The Night of Black Knives happened just before the Shattering, late in the timeline. The Age of Plenty ended before Radagon became Elden Lord, and Fundamentalism emerged around that time because of Radagon's efforts to conjoin faith and sorcery.
The version of the Jar-Saint theory I have imagined is not Marika being fused with only Radagon, he didn’t exist until until the successful ascension of Marika. Radagon is something like an emergent personality. He is the result of multiple minds and souls being bound into a single entity. I can’t say one way or the other on whether he is an actual seperate mind from Marika or if she has control over him or not. I don’t even know if Marika survived the process either.
Another puzzle piece is that there might have been a snake in Marikas Jar, where else did Mesmers snake come from? I now think Numen are not Shaman but that at least one of each was in that fateful mix explaining what Marika is as well of one as of the other stock.
@ I sometimes think that there is a weird possession thing happening. The body that houses the Elden Ring may not have been Marika’s to begin with. Marika had to supplant or subdue whoever previous controlled the body. When Radagon entered the mix, Marika fought him off as long as she could, she delayed his total takeover until someone arrived who could kill the body and end the cycle of horror. The shell may never even have been a person but just a doll Marika or someone else made because mortal flesh can’t survive the Elden Ring.
@@MolochDE George Martin and Miyazaki typically write their eldritch influence with a little more emphasis on “curses” than “literal and physical and tangible existences.” Knowing this, Messmer’s “curse” is more of a result of an outer influence than it is some random snake that snuck in Marika’s jar. We can see Messmer’s case repeated in Malenia, Miquella, Morgott and Mohg, etc. None of these children were born without an eldritch curse. They are cursed by an unknown entity (mohg and Morgott were specifically cursed by a KNOWN entity, the Hornsent). These children’s curses are meant to depict Marika’s failure in her Order. She is cursed for the things she had done to become a God. She is also predominantly less “religious” than all of her foes. Unlike her religious foes, she attempts to fight back against these ‘Outer Influences,’ which ironically strengthens their hold on Marika and her Children
@ Sure a valid reading. But in all the cases in the LB where the outer gods sneak in, they have been opened a door i.e. the bloodfiends turn to the formless mother after their exile. I think with the Saint Jar, it makes total sense, that Marika has all these corruptions in her from the start, some hornsent, some rot, some snake. They all hold a ballance in Marika but in her children each of these aspects manifests significantly stronger. This could also be intentional by Marika i.e. banishing these aspects from her own body one by one.
I really enjoy this theory and your video as a whole. I’m hoping someone, if not yourself, can expand on it a little to make it more compelling in terms of Radagon’s overall motivations. For example, I don’t see how anything you claim could help explain why he is so loyal to the golden order, especially since you’re saying he’s born of the thoughts of Marika that “bear no sense of order.” But regardless, still loved the video.
I think I should make a huge video compiling the entire story of Marika and connecting all of my theories about her together but, for now I think he was so loyal to the golden order because he was trying to be whole, that's literally what Marika says about him. so if he was born from notions that bear no sense of order then it would be logical that he is trying to compensate for it.
Just speculation, but what if it's because he was born of such things that he wants to be the opposite of it? You know the whole "turn back on your origins" mindset. It would explain why he's so fanatical about the Golden Order.
@@Novaling116 I like this, it reminds me of Morgott’s story. He literally recanted what made him unique and loved the erdtree despite being loved back. We know Radagon experienced at least a little bit of self hatred (with his hair) so I can see their stories mirroring each other a little bit maybe.
@joshuacollins9648 Morgott is an excellent callback example! Nice catch/connection on that! Themes repeating is really common in ER even when they slightly differ from one another to give a character their specific motivations and goals. So it's really fun to dig and figure this sort of stuff out 😁
My only problem with the theory is that I think it is pretty certain that the DLC story trailer depicts Radagon (no shirt, no breasts, uncertain hair color due to lighting)
Oh hello, great to see you here. Your reddit post helped me a ton while making this and yes I did use the sliders of Nouvlesse to recreate this. Thanks for the awesome contribution ♥️
10:40 If Radagon emerged from the Erdtree, then wouldn't he have been created much later than the events of Marika at the Gates of Divinity? 15:58 I also doubt the timeline of Bonny village. It's just weird to me that this small little ghetto of a village was supposed to be the center of hornsent civilizations operations, just doesn't make sense. There is nothing that states Bonny village wasn't created AFTER Marika's ascension: unsatisfied with Marika's golden order the Hornsent began experimenting with none other than their God-Queens own people to recreate the crucible (and Messmer, tho is involves another personal theory of mine that I won't go into) which then created/summoned Eiglay. Marika would discover the village and then send Messmer in for revenge. Though ultimately I think Miyazaki 💯 left it open for interpretation, though that's why I'm appealing for the alternative in the first place, too many ppl are just assuming.
These Theorys are very interesting, but what about Godfrey being the first Elden Lord and Marika's Consort ? (and vessel?) How would this fit with Radagon being involved at the gate of Divinity ? I feel like a major stake of what happened at the gates is "Who was betrayed?" and "who was the God of a former age at that time?" (Maybe Placidusaxe's) - all of this being potentially linked to the Gloam Eyed Queen... And it is hard to fit in Radagon's role in all of this.
Do you think there were two Elden beasts at one point? The Elden beast that comes out doesn’t look golden, it’s full of a starry sky. Perhaps the golden one was slain with the finger slayer blade and used to steal its power? Or maybe it appears starry because it’s trying to hold back the cycle of night. Curious also that the image chosen for Elden Stars is strikingly similar to the Crucible, perhaps that’s the god the hornsent used to worship. Since minor erdtrees are grown with the remains of fallen warriors, likely using their runes, perhaps the souls feeding the erdtree are a pointless system, because the original tree was burnt. If the tarnished used to have the grave of gold in their eyes, which I believe to be traces of the power of the sun, I’d imagine burying tarnished would suck out any last remnants and grow a new erdtree that glows with the same golden color. I also wonder if the primordial form erdtree was literally made by burying all life inside it, similar to the giant ancestral spirit elk. If the original erdtrees roots were previously at the nameless eternal city, it would have had similar scenery to the other ones, flowing with animals and spirits prior to astel taking its moon away. (Side note i think the third lunar princess is not referenced due to this event.) Idk, what do you guys think I’m eager to hear it
I think that Radagon is not THE scadu tree, but A scadu tree, to be more precise, I think he is the shadow of the minor erdtree Marika planted in the shaman (miru) village, as the only sign of regret for sacrificing almost every single one of her kins shamans/miru/spirit tuners.
Wait wait wait this makes sense, that Marika’s race are like some kind of tree people. When you graft trees together you do have to wound the trees. Those wounds arent clean and the sap (tree puss and scars basically) does play a role. The Hornsent were grafting trees who just also happened to be people. And being Long Lived but Seldom Born makes sense if they are trees! And! It explains how eternal youth and rot could inhabit her children AND how she could reproduce with herself! It is POLLINATION! The ERD tree is just as much Merika’s body as the humanoid we fight! And Radagon is joined with her because the Scadutree is GRAFTED to the Erd tree! We had to burn the Erd tree and kill it to actually end Merika’s life because her spirit inhabited the flesh AND the wood. Unless you kill both she would not be truly destroyed. And! A tree can hold things inside of it and live just fine if it grows up around that thing! (Edit: please forgive the spelling of character names, it’s five in the morning and I am too sleepy to look them up lol)
I still think there's tidbits you're missing. First off, it's never explicitly stated why Radagon was cursed with red hair and when, and this ties together with Hyetta's speech about the One Great. First came fractures, then births, then souls. I think this is quite literal, and I think the fire giants lack of a stomach is a design indication that the Giants didn't have the ability to give birth. I think Radagon actually precedes Marika, and is the canonical origin point for the start of Births as Hyetta mentions, where Marika is responsible after that for the creation of souls. I'm not sure where my current lore theorizing is taking this, but it makes sense if you look at the more ritualistic lifestyle that the hornsent had, it's less 'soul' and more 'birth'. I'm not sure where i'm headed with this yet but you're right about your point about differences between the japanese community and western community.
@G4meplus well i'm not sure if you would go as far as to classify a 'fire breathing mouth' an actual stomach, but i wouldn't go as far as labelling it as such. And i think the distinction is important. Titans seem to have made the rocks that make up the land as evidenced by all the calcified titans everywhere, fire giants seem to have given birth to trees and soil and you can even see this imagery in the last section of the mountaintops. All the fire giant corpses are literally puking up three branches (that don't have thorns compared to the one branch sticking out of their back) My current thinking is that Radagon represents a missing link, as lots of the themes in elden ring are modelled after actual historical evolution/natural selection.
Good point about marika & radagon not becoming one through the jarring process because look at miquella & st trina he never was jarred & he still had his other half
Yes this is good. Best theory about how Radagon came to be I have heard so far. I too didnt like the theory about Radagon was put into the same pot. Only if there was an indicator that Radagon was part of Hornsent society, perhaps a high nobleman or the king. Then the statement of the old Hornsent grandma would make sense. I don't think she called Marika a slut out of anger, Marika must have done something that explains the insult. Could it be that the shadowy arm of Radagon is the same kind of shadow that also obscures the top of the sacred tower?
one thing disagrees with me, because this theory suggests that marika transcended alone. this isn't a known pattern. for marika to reenact her elden ring, you have to be her lord. for ranni to become god, you have to be her lord. if miquella could take the gate alone, he wouldn't have needed radahn. if he was afraid that a soul could bound to him, he could have just kept trina. one thing to note is that miquella is a character with 2 different souls: miquella and trina, who can interchange and split. his mother could be very similar. radagon could have been born from something and lived in marika as her alter, and that could be the loophole marika abused at the gate. that also probably explains the reason the hornsent fuse the shamans, and also why marika was spared: because she was the one successful candidate, or the one to inspire the practice of fusion. another idea is that radagon is a hornsent smith. he made a needle, and his job is to repair the elden ring, so one could make the leap that he practiced in the special smithscript technique, perhaps that he made his son a smithscript spear as a gift. radagon acts as marika's lord, and they fuse at the gate of divinity, which is likely what will happen to radahn as well if we didn't stop him (you can somewhat see that miquella is partially sinking into radahn). oh yeah, btw, i think what radagon throws at you in his boss fight is a golden smithscript needle. he's known to have needles, or thorns, and the way it returns to him after being thrown... and given that his children with marika are all cursed... makes you wonder if they have always been a fusion from the start... and if it is true that radagon likes to smith or to make stuff, then that's probably why miquella is such a good inventor
@G4meplus if I'm not mistaken Marika became Godess and shortly after the crusade was lead on hornsent so Messmer should be alive. Maybe the timeline is not so clear to know that or I'm missing something. I also wander if radagon has some connection to the bearded Moses guy holding a tablet. They both are coming from roots and are representing some form of order (bearded guy holding tablet is like 10 commandments)
Also I was just playing and at belfries is depiction of some other important figure from the past that is surrounded by roots. Damn I hope that nighreign is going to unravel some mysteries XD
@@szymonnawrocki890 from what we can gather there is a huge time gap between Marika's ascension and the cursade, here is a quick recap. First the cursade was ordered by Marika secretly and Messmer was her scapegoat, he took all the blame while Marika spread the propaganda that she didn't know anything. She spread that propaganda through banishing Messmer and his soldiers (the children of nobles from the capital) this banishment lead to the birth of colleseum dueling where people can watch the snake infested gladiators get killed (the snake became a traitor to the Erdtree) . We can learn from this info that the Erdtree, the capital and the golden order as a whole was well established before the crusade. The more important info for the timeline is the following tho, we were told that Messmer was like an older brother to Radahn and that commander Gaius (the leader of Messmer's army was taught gravity magic by the same alabaster lord alongside Radahn ) This has only one meaning, Messmer was still in the lands between (the cursade didn't start) for a very long time after Marika's ascension, Radahn and his siblings weren't born until after the Giants war, the second luirnian war and the peace between the capital and carians which lead to Radagon marrying Renalla and giving birth to Radahn and his siblings. Messmer did witness a ton of events in the lands between before getting banished for starting the crusade.
@@G4meplus yes you're right. Also the serpent lore is crazy. The eternal serpent, abyss serpent, eiglay, the possible snake eye in dlc trailer. Still so much unknown variables
Thank you! Neevr liked the jar theory. Why would Fromsoft ignore all the lore in the base game and just spring some new exposition on us. It was a ref herring.
What if Radagon was originally Marika's husband when she lived in the Shaman village. This would be when Mesmer and Melena are born. The Hornsent take him with the other members of the village and stuff them in the jars, thus motivating Marika and Mesmer to start a crusade. Then she beckons Radagon's soul back to her at the Divine Gate.
I don't think Radagon was her husband, the hornsent grandam calls her a strumpet. Also the shamans as far as we know are exclusively women. Another important thing is that the hornsent stuffed one shaman with a lot of their criminals why would they stuff another shaman with Marika?.
Do you have any idea why Miquella has Trina then? I thought that every god has something akin to a "shadow" side that we never see besides for Marika and Miquella. I would love to hear your opinion!
Miyazaki said in an interview that empyreans tend to have a dual nature, Miquella had one and he said that Ranni double face was a nod to the duality theme. Of course Marika/Radagon follows the same theme but, in my previous video I came to the conclusion that Marika's original dual personality was the Gloam eyed queen while Radagon came later on as stated in this video.
This is a great theory and i think you’re probably right about Radagon’s origin. However, how then do we explain Miquella & Saint Trina? They’re heavily implied to be two sexes & distinct personalities that shared the same body, similar to Radagon/Marika, which is why i’ve always assumed it was just a trait that demi-gods were capable of inheriting. Do you have an idea on this?
Empyreans can have dual personalities without the divine gate yes, in my previous video I came to the conclusion that the original dual personality of Marika was none other than the Gloam eyed queen.
@ thanks for the reply! I used to believe that myself, but i’ve come to believe the GEQ is in a similar position to Velka from Dark Souls in that she isn’t as relevant to the story as most of us want her to be. That said, i’ll give your video a watch!
Probably a complete and unlikely crapshot, but imagine for a moment if all along Radagon was the original and Marika had been the creation. That it was Radagon who ascended those steps and Marika who was born from the divine gate's use. _Radagon_ is Marika. Dunno, just a stupid/funny 'what if'. But what a complete sidewinder that would be.
counterpoint to ur argument against the jar theory, we have examples of single personalities emerging as a result of the jarring rituals ! ironfist alexander & jar bairn are both made of multiple people but identify themselves as one person while also being able to hear & commune with the souls of the individuals theyre made of. radagon could be the first instance of the flesh amalgam 'saint' gaining a separate, self-reflexive ego like alexander or jar bairn
My only question would be this: why aren't they in jars? They are unmarred physical beings rather than the fleshy amalgamation we see in the dlc. I'm curious what your thoughts are, especially since I'm kinda new to figuring out this sort of complex lore.
@@Novaling116 i don't think theres a direct answer because we're talking about a universe where characters go from having horns & a lot of physical bulk to no horns & extremely skinny in an instant. so my explanation would just be that unlike the other shamans marika was able to fully incorporate the bodies into herself & return to her original appearance, which is what made her special among the 'empyreans'. malenia becomes the goddess of rot in an instant. miquella is able to discard his body in the lands between & still have flesh to additionally discard in the land of shadow, & when we see him in the endgame he's grown a second pair of arms. i think the logistical 'how' is less important to the designers than the thematic 'how'. & in this case i think it makes thematic sense to view marika/radagon as a successful jar saint
@ That's super interesting to think about though! I know I definietly toyed with the jar idea, but the body thing is what I couldn't justify in my head. With being a special kind of empyrean, that would make up the gap easily! It's also pretty dope from a storytelling point of view too, at least to me, and it would showcase just how fearsome Marika really was and how much Miquella takes after her in that way.
@@Novaling116 I mean it's pretty obvious, the dynamic of Miquella and Malenia is pretty reflective of that between Marika and Radagon. Although it has few diffrences on how it played out. Malenia inherits the traits of Radagon, while Miquella inherits the traits of Marika.
Great explanation, the only thing is Miquella had St Trina before the divine gate and not after. Not saying your theory is wrong, just saying dual personalities was before the divine gate
Indeed people can have dual personalities without the divine gate, my previous video was talking about the gloam eyed queen and I went to the conclusion that she was the original dual personality of Marika, check it out if you are interested.
What u mean ? It makes sense and works with your theory, my head canon is that Marika was a numan who was a successful "jar saint", she was merge with champions like every other jar, but this one worked and she was recognize as an imperyam and accepted in the horntsent society, when she did the ritual godfrey was suppose to be there to be the lord but didnt get there in time and marika was force to do the ritual alone and it went wrong radagon came alive inside marika and influenced her
But why would Numen and Shaman be the same? All the Numen stuff is very far away from Shaman village and all shamans were dead so how can the black knife assasins be Numen then? It makes so much more sense that a Numen was an ingedient in Marikas Jar. In translation the Numen also means "rare people" and for the Hornsent who tried a lot to create their god it makes a lot of sense to try this very unusual kind of person as an ingredient with the Shaman acting as the usual melding glue.
@@MolochDE Numen came from the outside of Lands between, many of them lived in different areas and ideas. Nox are also Numen but they went different route and decided to worship what order was against.
@ Jep, this sounds a lot unlike the shaman. There is clear text that Marika is of the same stock as numen and we also know she's a shaman so I think Jar is the best explaination for such a mixup
Radagons connection to Thorns and the Fire Giants are no coincidence because burning the Tree and the Thorns with the Fire Giants Flame will lead you to Farum Azula. Guys now that we know about Marikas Origin we can conclude that Farum Azula is the Origin of Radagon. The Statue in Malikeths Boss Arena is Radagon making the Same position as Miquella when he gave a Vow. Maliketh is not Marikas Shadow and Half-Brother he originally belonged to Radagon and Marikas only need for him was to Seal away Destined Death. I also believe that Beastmen are created by melting a Human with a Wolve. Also I’m sure that the first Incantations Originated from Farum Azula like summoning the Elden Beast
crazy idea, with probably no basis or proof, but could it be possible that radagon was potentially a lingering spirit of a former giant and THAT is why his hair is red? i can think if contradictions and plot holes as i type this but i figured id put it here anyway
Man I really wish the dlc have some new Radagon lore. I still don't believe he's a creation of Marika and he is his own person. But if he isn't, then the dlc had the opportunity to at least heavily insinuate him being a creation of Marika.
The notion that Radagon placed the Thorns upon the Erdtree is incorrect. He did not place the Thorns upon the Erdtree. Look at the difference between his Rune at the Erdtree, the one behind his statue, or the one at Raya Lucaria. You noted how Radagon's Rune can be "made" with the trunk of a tree. If Radagon placed the Thorns, why aren't the Thorns in the shape of his Rune? His Rune is Orderly, the Thorns are Chaotic. It doesn't make sense... unless Radagon's Rune being outside the Erdtree is telling us something else entirely...
I have watched just about every Elden Ring lore video out there, and your theories have always hit the hardest man. You seem to figure out more than the rest, and I appreciate you for it. Keep kicking ass 🤘
Thanks for the support, means a lot ❤️
@G4meplus You deserve it. 🤝
@@eddyh5you should check out the Tarished Archeologist. He’s also goated. He’s the source for many of these creators.
You should check out The Tarnished Archeologist. He’s also goated.
@@onesolopolo4194 I have him subscribed too, and you're right. He's also awesome.
I think one critical thing to note about Grandmother is that a being who is a tree can propagate in many ways: by seed, by grafting (Marika's rune is literally the exact shape of the kind of cut made in bud grafting), and most importantly - by cloning. During any of these processes any contaminant or wild spore/seed can and usually will result in unintended and unwanted results. A successful graft or clone can only happen if all parts being grafted are pure. I think Grandmother was the first, and every child of hers different types of propagated 'trees'. Marika was likely the first pure clone. Leaving part of her hair behind assured a built in weakness passed to her children. The next purest version from Marika via bud graft was Miquella. Grafting appears in many ways, in fact every method is used throughout, even including the sealing wax and graft curing by fire. It isn't always as visually straightforward - knowing a bit about grafting helps too.
Wow this is such a great theory,the best actually i have heared about the marikas sin,that's why radagon hair turned red to be a marker of the sin of her cutting her hair and not being pure
That is soo fascinating !! i need to research bud grafting now
"The Scadutree is the shadow of the Erdtree." An Empyrean's shadow is their loyal guard, their protector. In a similar way, the Scadutree watches over the oppression the Golden Order is built upon.
From what I could understand, in psychoanalysis, the Shadow also seems to play a similar role. It holds back all the dark and painful memories from the conscious mind, in order to protect the Ego. It only expresses itself in moments of blind rage, uncontrollable despair, as a last line of defense.
Thorns were used on the guilty, and the Shield of the Guilty speaks of a maiden "reborn in these lands" whose eyes had been crushed by the Briars of Sin. In version 1.0 the shield is called the Sinner's Shield and explicitly states that it depicts a goddess. Clearly, Marika is the most reasonable candidate for the shield. We know Jar Saints were criminals via the dlc, and we know that Malekith is obsessed with sins as they regard Marika. I think Marika used thorns on the Fire Giants specifically because of her rage at what had been done to her. Remember: the Hornsent feared the Giants and, I believe, they were likely ruled by the Giants in the past. This would explain why Messmer uses the visage of the Fire Giants on the Wicker golems as a means of Psychological warfare. I also think that the Hornsent allied with Marika (after her Ascendance) to defeat the Fire Giants. This is corroborated by Godfrey's literal union with Serosh, the latter likely being the Storm Lord. It seems, to me, that the Zamor and the Trolls were not Marika's only allies, and we know how she treats allies (enslavement, exile, imprisonment, death, etc.)
As to Radagon, he was likely a Fire Giant aspect to Marika in the Jar. Why else would she send him to subjugate Liurnia? The Astrologers and the Giants lived rather peacefully beforehand...
the trailer even shows it with the gate of divinity completely red with blood, as marika turn more masculine in front of the golden gate. gold surrounded by red. when the narrator say "gold was born" we focus on the golden gap and marika. "and too was shadow born" we focus on the gate itself, red, and marika's hair turning long and her assuming a more masculine form.
I always thought of the cross pattern behind radagon as rebar which holds concrete together during strain, sort of a depiction of radagon holding the golden order together, that he was the rebar in the golden order so to speak.
it also looks like a lattice are used to support tall plants with vines. same purpose, to maintain structure throughout growth
@@johnwaters1768this does fit with the plant motif throughout Elden Ring, but OP has a point as well.
It resembles what is known as "grafting" : "a technique for attaching the stem of one plant to the roots of another, creating a single plant", They do the cross hatch on the plants like the whip did to the Shaman. So they can stick other plants to it to make them one.
Hear me out: Radagon may have technically been conceived in Marika at the Gates, but what if the 'original sin' he was born of into the physical world, was when Marika divested herself of divine responsibilities and cast out her Gloam-Eyed Queen half, in order to indulge in mortal desires of being able to actually keep her kids instead of needing to kill them for divine equilibrium. Sin is a marked deviation from divinity.
That may have been when the Ruinous Flame then befell the Erdtree, and Marika was imprisoned inside it with that red thorn impaling her. As we know, red thorns are for the guilty. For some crime. And the one in her appears to be composed of the same style of matter as the Elden Ring she's suspended from. Her transgression against Order and the Greater Will could have been punished in that way, to prevent any more, but the fallout of that one action was already set in motion. Where did that Ruinous Flame go, if it burned the Erdtree? It could have gone into the Scadutree and poured into the manifesting Radagon, explaining his red hair, which is otherwise exclusive to the Fire Giant bloodline - a direct product of their holding of the Ruinous Flame in themselves. (Let's not forget the Giant's Red Braid pretty sternly establishes this connection).
And as we all know, after the Erdtree was burned, in this trying time for the faith, and Marika, a hero was needed. Shortly after, Radagon appeared, debuting in the Liurnian War.
You bring up a great point likening Radagon's partial composition of shadowstuff to the Scadutree. It seems so obvious after that's pointed out. As intrinsic a connection to Marika as the Scadutree is to the Erdtree. He's been mysterious all this time, but the farthest thing possible from some rando pulled out of the aether.
To further articulate on him coming from Marika's removal of Destined Death from her Gloam-Eyed Queen other half's God-Slaying Black Flame, I posit: Radagon IS the reincarnation of the GEQ half of Marika that she'd cast out from herself, the remaining half-a-god essence of her, just stripped bare of Destined Death and the GEQ persona. (Remember Uub from DBZ, a reincarnation of Buu but without the evil? The whole 'reborn but different this time' idea repeats itself in Japanese media all the time). Godslaying black flame, stripped of Destined Death, just leaves good old regular Ruinous Flame - hence the mixup of his perceived association with the Giants (for their red hair is said to be a direct product of their holding of the Ruinous Flame of the Fell God).
In essence, Radagon somewhat is a 'fell god' in his own right, in that he's a 'fallen' piece of one. This would reconcile well with the memory of the one-sided conversation found in the Queen's Bed Chamber where Marika said to Radagon, "My other half, you are not quite me."
Would track quite cleanly if that, 'my other half,' statement was more than just the figurative verbiage couples sometimes use. It would insinuate he actually is *almost* half of her, but still missing something. Why is it we even go to Farum Azula and take Destined Death from Maliketh? Why would the GEQ persona that's taken root in Melina, throwing herself into the Giants' Ruinous Flame, lead us there? Maliketh asks what we could possibly wish to 'kill' with it. I don't think we quite use it to 'kill,' after all. This is the pieces all trying to return to the whole, a very recurring theme.
We wind up with: Marika's body, a collection of Great Runes, the remembrance of the Elden Beast (which could take the form of Marika's Hammer or the Sacred Relic Sword [which is straight up Radagon's body if you look closely at the model], so either way mementos of him), and us possessing Destined Death in rune form, too. We're quite on-the-nose reassembling a crumbled, broken god, back to whole with ALL the missing pieces of her self. That's us reforging the Elden Ring. He really was half of her. It seems so obvious, hidden in plain sight, when looking at it that way.
It makes sense. He was cursed by the giants for his red hair. Because they are all dead and impaled with ... THORNS. They all have these huge thorns, and now we know. I think Radagon is a dRagon, the Elden Ring. And when Marika took it into herself, because she melds harmoniously with things, rather than just being a vault where the ring/beast is held, it merged with her instead. This is why Marika doesn't have any golden insides or even the Eldenring as her body hangs there. The last of her power and grace given back to the tarnished. Only when Radagon comes to do we see the golden amber-like insides of the arm and head, and the glowing Elden ring inside.
When Radagon falls, he exits the convenient humanoid body and grows, taking it under the darkness to form it into a weapon, something Radagon was very good at doing. Radagon is the Alien, the mind slug, taking over Marika's will.
Also Also- In the DLC trailer, the person walking up the gate doesn't look like they are wearing a top. It might be Radagon before he was cursed with red hair, rather than Marika. Seduction and betrayal sounds more like his handiwork.
Wow, I think you nailed it. Love the Miquella is Marika is to Erdtree / St. Trina is Radagon is Scadutree element.
The image of Radagon holding "Marika's Hammer" also looks almost exactly like the Scadutree. Also one thing that goes under discussed is the idea of who exactly is naming these objects in the world? How o we know it is her hammer at all? Some might think that is too much but in a game about conquest and muddling of history it makes perfect sense to lie about a relic and it's origin. I think the Divine towers are the key to this entire game, they are created for the sole purpose of getting us to trek up a big ass tower to restore "benediction" to a rune we already claimed. The lore implications of this are massive in it's intentionality.
I have seen a lot of good lore channels (like Vaati and such) but yours and The Tarnished Archeologist are by far my favourites, keep the great work!
Thanks my friend, means a lot to me ❤️
In Twin Peaks there was also a place like this. The Black Lodge. Where if you entered without being perfect you created a shadow and indeed that's what happened to Cooper. His shadow exited the lodge.
Funny you mention this. Twin Peaks was extremely popular in Japan.
It turns out that it was a huge inspiration for many of the games that we know and love today. Including the original three team silent SH games. Specifically SH2.
On that note, RIP David Lynch.
Always way ahead of his time.
I think a huge piece of the jar saint theory is that marika was never said to be in one. Her people certainly were, but we are unsure of her. I believe she is supposed to be Urd (erd/urd tree)in Norse mythology. Born of a demon and a god and one of 3 fates (3 sisters) and she was possibly a religious figure in horn sent culture with the ability to foresee the atrocities from the past, present and future and just decided to do something about it. I think you’re 100% accurate that marika created radagon with her guilt but I believe his creation was also forseen and marika may have even created him here at the divine gate and used his vessel to be lord without his knowing. The red hair could be an homage to the blood at the gates of divinity. Either way, I believe you’re onto something lol great vid
"jarring rituals"
hah
edit: im not aware of the mistranslations in the jar saint theory, perhaps i'll have to watch that video next, but i interpreted it as Radagon being all the bits mixed in with Shaman flesh, while marika is the Shaman flesh. Radagon would be part hornsent, part giant (explaining his red hair,) part tarnished maybe idk, a bunch of everything basically - but that's just how i interpreted it.
They exclusively stuffed their criminals in the jars tho, that's why I said it's filled with holes as Radagon cannot be all of those if he was stuffed into a jar with Marika.
@@G4meplus There was the legend of the guy who rebelled against the giants and lead the revolt: wouldn't he be a criminal for the hornsents, stuffed in jar ? Or on the contrary, a hero deserving to become a lord for their godess to come ?
The crosshatch symbol is likely a reference to the Norse Web of Wyrd.
Underrated comment and absolutely true.
I like this idea but I still think radagon was born when the elden beast came to marika giving it a way to maintain control of her which is why he is declared a loyal hound of the golden order
also radagon being cursed with red hair by the giants implies that his hair color was once something different which to me says they knew that he was abnormal to the world and marked him so everyone would know
This theory ties a bunch of stuff together nicely. Still, there are a couple of things which stand in need of further explanation (this is always the case with Elden Ring!), a perhaps an expanded theory would encompass them.
The first thing that still needs explanation are the twins Messmer and Melina. Were they an accidental by-product of the divine rite? Or did Marika intentionally get with Radagon to produce them? If so, why?
The second thing that still needs explanation is the role of Radagon in the war against the fire giants.
In any case, excellent work here. I look forward to seeing what comes next.
Hopefully we will be able to make a video compiling the entire story of Marika soon.
For anybody curious after the DLC especially I've been craving up-to-date lore theory videos and I've found that these smaller RUclipsrs (apart from The Alchemist) are especially good: Storm King, Silent Ellipsis, Scum Mage Infa, Nameless Singer and Garrulous Goldmask. Storm King and Silent Ellipsis are among my favorite.
Any more tips?
Just don't watch Emerald Gecko. They have the literary and philosophical skills of al 11-year-old
The tarnished archeologist is by far and away my favourite. Nobody does what he does.
He just hasn’t done anything about the dlc
scum mage's miquella video was eye-opening
@@onesolopolo4194he has two videos about/related to the DLC out already actually
@ yeah I fell asleep to one last night 😅 turns out I was the one who hadn’t been locked in on the lore
"the Lord's soul will require a vessel"
Sounds like some kind of lordvessel to me 🤭
I've been saying this since the story trailer and gotten a lot of flack but I'm positive we see a male figure at the Gateway.
Idk the specifics maybe saw Marika walking up and Him coming into being or something like that but I feel it in my bones that we see the " leal hound of the Golden Order" at the place of the birth of Gold and Shadow.
Well argued as always! I also think the color scheme of the scene at the Divine Gate is really important to this conversation.
The main colors there are the deep purple sky, red, and gold. Your closeups of Marika even show how her hair seems to be a blend of red and gold while a braid is beginning to form.
I think this is visual evidence for something like what you're arguing, and I think this all ties back to the Crucible. Considering that the Crucible's color was "red-tinged gold" and it seems to be symbolized by vines and spirals, I think Radagon emerged from Marika at the gate in the same way the Erdtree emerged out of the Crucible. Perhaps Marika was even an embodiment of the Crucible at that point. Anyway, great stuff.
Jes! it makes sense that with the ritual there was this separation. the inside of the gate is golden and the outside is dark. Someone a while ago pointed out that Marika as she is holding the threats has a more maskulin figure. Her shoulders are wider and her back looks more muscular.
Of all the lore hunters, you are honestly the closest to the truth in my opinion.
Im so picky when it comes to listening to Elden Ring lore explanations and I really do think yours are in the top 3 if not the best.
Its so easy to over think or dismiss the importance of every little thing in this game and you strike a good balance so far.
Keep it up!
Thanks my friend, means a lot to me ❤️
Very thought provoking as usual- While watching this I was thinking Radagon's statue looks like gravity is pulling him up a little, as if he's upside down. As if the statue is upside down. The roots are at his feet because he is the figurative root system to Marikas "tree". A root system is a sort of shadow tree.
Thank you so much dude, the last secrets of this game turn me crazy
We know Marika is a "of the same stock" as a Numen and that she is a Shaman. But it makes no sense that Numen and Shaman would be the same! All the Numen stuff is very far away from Shaman village and all shamans were dead so how can the black knife assasins be Numen then? It makes so much more sense that a Numen was an ingedient in Marikas Jar. In translation the Numen also means "rare people" and for the Hornsent who tried a lot to create their god it makes a lot of sense to try this very unusual kind of person as an ingredient with the Shaman acting as the usual melding glue.
Of course the strongest evidence for Jar Saint is the snake as an ingredient. Why else would Mesmer have it's aspect inside of him if not for Marika already being tainted by it?
I just want to say that in the emerging age of AI-generated, time-wasting, shallow crap videos you and the rest of the video game lore hunters, story analysts, and deep thinkers continue to create great original content without relying on AI art, scripting, or voice overs - and I REALLY appreciate your dedication. This is really good stuff; I have not heard anyone else dive into this topic this way, and I agree with your logic here. Keep up the good work - I'm going to miss the ER lore exploration when it eventually wanes - this game goes so far beyond being just a great video game (or maybe that is what makes a truly great game).
Thanks my friend, means a lot to me ❤️
Praying that Nightreign would have some good alternate lore to explore.
I always regarded the cross hatch of the Elden Ring as Radagon’s attempt to fix it after the shattering 🤔
I always thought the giant snake was the lost god of the horn sent because it acts as a physical representation of both the crucible and the jar Saint ritual.
How does theory fit with how heavily associated Radagon is with the misbegotten and the giants?
The file name for the misbegotten warriors is “children of Radagon”.
And the giant’s red braid directly calls out Radagon and his red hair as a curse from them.
Radagon is the only one who casts Incantations and Spells at the Same Time. If the “Hammer” would be Longer and not Cracked then it would resemble a Magic Staff containing a Golden Ember Glintstone. The Item Description says it’s Marikas Hammer… but it’s Radagons Hammer he forged Marikas Staff into an Hammer
Well Radagon did believe that things can be conjoined because he knows the origin of order he belongs to that's why he married Renalla and sabotaged his army when Marika declared war on them resulting in peace.
Wow, i really love this theory about Radagon's origins. I knew about the issues with the Marika/Radagon Jar saint theory regarding the mistranslations etc etc, but the shed snakeskin near the headless Oh Mother tree statue, and the markings on the foreheads of the jar saints linked with the picture of Rykard with a similar marking made me think there was something there i was missing. Plus, there is that giant jar in the bonny goal(if i remember correctly).
All that said, Radagon being "born" when Marika ascended also seemed obvious to me. I still dont know how to reconcile Miquella/St Trina and the Brick hammer weapon description mentioning a champion
"Weapon made from an ordinary stone brick. Wielded by a laborer who led a rebellion and later become a champion himself.
Even among other bludgeons of its size, this weapon is especially weighty. The strength of a giant is required to wield it."
There are lots of seemingly contradictory evidence and clues, but your Radagon origin theory makes a hell of a lot of sense.
Remember Radagon crusaded across the lakes so he became a champion after the rebellion. A rebellion that may have ended in castle morne. The grafted sword and Godfrey’s hounding from the lands between(leal hound of the golden order) the axe lost one side cut by a blade. Maybe a golden order great sword delivered the bow. Godfrey is Arthur and Radagon is based on lance alot
I have always thought that there is a connection between the scadotree thorns and the bloody briars
Your theory is pretty close to what I've been ruminating on. It honestly may even add to it a bit! One thing I've seen mentioned about the part of the trailer when Marika brandishes the golden threads (did anyone else notice the corpse resembles the godskins? Maybe GEQ was involved somehow too?) is that she almost looks a bit more masculine in her body shape, and her hair seems more tinged towards red at the ends. I speculated that this was how Radagon was imparted to her, which if you think in context to your theory, would meld quite easily and with way more evidence than just my random hunch.
Why do people always talk about the Godskins by equating what they wear to their actual race? The pale skin that they wear comes from gods that they have killed. What we see in the trailer would not be Godskins, but rather the gods that were routinely hunted by the Godskins.
Also, why would Marika kill the Godskins when she clearly allows them to have a place of honor so close to the capital? Why is Marika missing an eye, and why does Maliketh have a gloam eye? Why are the Nox, Shamans and Greater Will all connected to the stars? Why are the stone coffin space-ship things associated with the Shamans?
It seems to me that the only true answer revolves around Marika’s ability to divest herself, something we also see with Miquella. She was the Gloam-eyed Queen. She betrayed Maliketh. She orchestrated Ranni’s success. She shattered the Elden Ring not out of grief, but so that the tarnished would become Lords. She sent the rest of her children to be slaughtered by each other and the tarnished.
@@juice2307 Regarding your comment on the godskins, please tone it down a bit. It was just an observation, so I posed the question. That's what theories are made of after all. Also, I'm super new to figuring out lore as a whole, so please be kind. I didn't say what I said as a means to prove I was right, I just wanted an honest opinion because I enjoy seeing other perspectives. So, I appreciate your understanding on this.
With that being said, I didn't type out my full theory with this comment, because I'm currently just observing and trying to comprehend the pieces of this story as a whole to see how things could potentially fit together. My main point in the comment above was to showcase the similarities in thinking, but I didn't expand on the circumstances around it. Please take into consideration that everything from here on is pure speculation and a thought experiment:
I was toying with the idea that maybe Marika and the GEQ were once one in the same like Marika and Radagon. Because of that I think that she was the sort of "sainthood" those under the crucible were trying to bring about. This could be what the "Seduction" was? The possibility and promise of what she could bring, but of course Marika would have her own plans. Obviously I can't say for sure what exact events transpired, but I assume Marika/GEQ would leverage whatever they needed to succeed, which would lead to the betrayal at the divine gateway. This would mark the start of Marika's caged divinity. This is where my point about Radagon being imparted to Marika comes in, and that there was brief period of the 3 of them were in one body.
In this time I think is when Messmer was born, because he's more indicative of Radagon (red hair and hatred for an aspect of himself) and the GEQ (she wielded flames and has connections to snakes) rather than Marika. And this could've been the catalyst of Marika beginning to see GEQ as a threat. We know for sure that she had Maliketh "defeat" the GEQ, but the nature of it is up for debate I think, considering she has slain most all her other enemies. I was curious if her defeat was more like what we see with Miquella (divesting St. Trina from himself) and Melania (Millicent being either a daughter/offshoot). Marika could've divested GEQ, Maliketh subdue her and her black flame, but then GEQ/offshoot is renamed Melina and is given a new purpose to be kindling. Again, this is HIGHLY speculative. After this point though, I pictured is when more of the base game timeline starts kicking in with the wars and stuff, and its at this point after seeing the fruits of her strength, Marika begins her unseen war on the hornsent while also getting rid of Messmer in the process.
I'm sure there are a bunch of plot holes with this, which is why I present it because I don't want to assume I'm right at all. Watching lore videos has helped shape this so far, but as I'm new to this, I'm want other people's opinions so we can figure this out together. You know? It's more fun when its a discussion. So feel free to pick this apart, I'm sure there as things I'm missing that can help shift how I view the lore :D
My original thought was to the large pots, and even the absurdly large pots and Marika(numen) having been fused with a fire giant, amongst others, however; I love your explanation far more and believe it would be a more suitable reasoning. That being said, I do think that the Hornsent society used everyone available in "the-lands-between" a thing which then let Marika (divine) gather support to then slaughter them in kind. Cause I dont see The Golden Order (year 0) building the fire golems we see in the land of shadow- but fire giant support in return for helping them get back at the hornsent? I find that plausible. Then, she goes back and begins jailing and killing her former allies (I need a reason for that Radagon seal evergaol to be down in the peninsula).
Marika was a shaman and the last of them. I think she was the success where all others failed, and her children carry the aspects and influences she wanted to get rid of (think of the shed serpent skin near bonny village - the serpent is now carried by messmer). With that background I don't see any appeal in a theory that suggests the sudden and random emergence of one of the most important lore points.
I think the answer is a lot simpler. Radagon is just someone (his origin can be anything, but I am on the side of him being produced via the Jar Warriors) who had immense greed and aspired to become Marika herself as she is the embodiment of everything he worships.
The cross pattern of Radagon's is typically seen with sealing/binding (the impenetrable thorns, the carian servant masks, the Elden Ring being held together, etc), so it makes me believe this allowed him to merge with Marika wholly in an attempt to take her place.
He is a man with vast Charisma, but he is notably ambitious as he desired to become "complete". As a devout follower of the Golden Order, and his implied mutual Lust for Marika even before Godfrey was out of the picture, what better option is there than to become Marika herself?
He spent a long time with the Carians and the Academy, so he doubtlessly learned about astrology and the histories that would not have been allowed by Marika. He more than likely found out about the Numen/Shamen and used his connection with Rennala to further prepare himself to eventually usurp Marika.
When we face the final boss, there are 3 entities present: Marika, the one who guided us to the Erdtree in hopes of making us Lord (or set her free... up to interpretation, really). Radagon, an ascending God who also plays the part of Lord. We are not needed nor desired by him, so he attempts to kill us. And the Elden Beast, vassal of the Greater Will's... will. Given the current state of the Golden Order, it would not accept us, so we would need to subjugate/kill it, eliminating both the Beast and Radagon's presence from the Elden Ring.
It ties nicely with Godfrey's lore and subjugation of the beast that alchemist mentioned in video about Godfrey.
This was a question I’ve had since day one, the time line.
You sound like Nandor the Relentless and I cant get the idea of him being a FromSoft loremaster on the side out of my head
Golden Order Fundamentalism wasnt conceived until after the Night of Black Knives and burning of the Erdtree in body.
The Night of Black Knives happened just before the Shattering, late in the timeline. The Age of Plenty ended before Radagon became Elden Lord, and Fundamentalism emerged around that time because of Radagon's efforts to conjoin faith and sorcery.
The version of the Jar-Saint theory I have imagined is not Marika being fused with only Radagon, he didn’t exist until until the successful ascension of Marika. Radagon is something like an emergent personality. He is the result of multiple minds and souls being bound into a single entity.
I can’t say one way or the other on whether he is an actual seperate mind from Marika or if she has control over him or not. I don’t even know if Marika survived the process either.
Another puzzle piece is that there might have been a snake in Marikas Jar, where else did Mesmers snake come from? I now think Numen are not Shaman but that at least one of each was in that fateful mix explaining what Marika is as well of one as of the other stock.
@ I sometimes think that there is a weird possession thing happening. The body that houses the Elden Ring may not have been Marika’s to begin with. Marika had to supplant or subdue whoever previous controlled the body. When Radagon entered the mix, Marika fought him off as long as she could, she delayed his total takeover until someone arrived who could kill the body and end the cycle of horror. The shell may never even have been a person but just a doll Marika or someone else made because mortal flesh can’t survive the Elden Ring.
@@MolochDE George Martin and Miyazaki typically write their eldritch influence with a little more emphasis on “curses” than “literal and physical and tangible existences.”
Knowing this, Messmer’s “curse” is more of a result of an outer influence than it is some random snake that snuck in Marika’s jar. We can see Messmer’s case repeated in Malenia, Miquella, Morgott and Mohg, etc. None of these children were born without an eldritch curse. They are cursed by an unknown entity (mohg and Morgott were specifically cursed by a KNOWN entity, the Hornsent). These children’s curses are meant to depict Marika’s failure in her Order. She is cursed for the things she had done to become a God. She is also predominantly less “religious” than all of her foes. Unlike her religious foes, she attempts to fight back against these ‘Outer Influences,’ which ironically strengthens their hold on Marika and her Children
@ Sure a valid reading. But in all the cases in the LB where the outer gods sneak in, they have been opened a door i.e. the bloodfiends turn to the formless mother after their exile.
I think with the Saint Jar, it makes total sense, that Marika has all these corruptions in her from the start, some hornsent, some rot, some snake. They all hold a ballance in Marika but in her children each of these aspects manifests significantly stronger. This could also be intentional by Marika i.e. banishing these aspects from her own body one by one.
I really enjoy this theory and your video as a whole. I’m hoping someone, if not yourself, can expand on it a little to make it more compelling in terms of Radagon’s overall motivations. For example, I don’t see how anything you claim could help explain why he is so loyal to the golden order, especially since you’re saying he’s born of the thoughts of Marika that “bear no sense of order.” But regardless, still loved the video.
I think I should make a huge video compiling the entire story of Marika and connecting all of my theories about her together but, for now I think he was so loyal to the golden order because he was trying to be whole, that's literally what Marika says about him. so if he was born from notions that bear no sense of order then it would be logical that he is trying to compensate for it.
@@G4meplus You most definitely should!
Just speculation, but what if it's because he was born of such things that he wants to be the opposite of it? You know the whole "turn back on your origins" mindset. It would explain why he's so fanatical about the Golden Order.
@@Novaling116 I like this, it reminds me of Morgott’s story. He literally recanted what made him unique and loved the erdtree despite being loved back. We know Radagon experienced at least a little bit of self hatred (with his hair) so I can see their stories mirroring each other a little bit maybe.
@joshuacollins9648 Morgott is an excellent callback example! Nice catch/connection on that! Themes repeating is really common in ER even when they slightly differ from one another to give a character their specific motivations and goals. So it's really fun to dig and figure this sort of stuff out 😁
My only problem with the theory is that I think it is pretty certain that the DLC story trailer depicts Radagon (no shirt, no breasts, uncertain hair color due to lighting)
Oh hey! I'm the original creator of that Radagon and Marika split picture. The sliders were made by Nouvlesse!
It's crazy seeing this out in the wild. I love it! 😊
Oh hello, great to see you here. Your reddit post helped me a ton while making this and yes I did use the sliders of Nouvlesse to recreate this.
Thanks for the awesome contribution ♥️
What if Miquella's "sock puppet" ritual is how they put the sun in the Erdtree and married it to the moon?
10:40
If Radagon emerged from the Erdtree, then wouldn't he have been created much later than the events of Marika at the Gates of Divinity?
15:58 I also doubt the timeline of Bonny village. It's just weird to me that this small little ghetto of a village was supposed to be the center of hornsent civilizations operations, just doesn't make sense. There is nothing that states Bonny village wasn't created AFTER Marika's ascension: unsatisfied with Marika's golden order the Hornsent began experimenting with none other than their God-Queens own people to recreate the crucible (and Messmer, tho is involves another personal theory of mine that I won't go into) which then created/summoned Eiglay. Marika would discover the village and then send Messmer in for revenge.
Though ultimately I think Miyazaki 💯 left it open for interpretation, though that's why I'm appealing for the alternative in the first place, too many ppl are just assuming.
My word… not even Reed Richards could make such stretches and contortions
You got me, My real name is Mister Fantastic.
These Theorys are very interesting, but what about Godfrey being the first Elden Lord and Marika's Consort ? (and vessel?)
How would this fit with Radagon being involved at the gate of Divinity ?
I feel like a major stake of what happened at the gates is "Who was betrayed?" and "who was the God of a former age at that time?" (Maybe Placidusaxe's) - all of this being potentially linked to the Gloam Eyed Queen... And it is hard to fit in Radagon's role in all of this.
Do you think there were two Elden beasts at one point? The Elden beast that comes out doesn’t look golden, it’s full of a starry sky. Perhaps the golden one was slain with the finger slayer blade and used to steal its power? Or maybe it appears starry because it’s trying to hold back the cycle of night. Curious also that the image chosen for Elden Stars is strikingly similar to the Crucible, perhaps that’s the god the hornsent used to worship.
Since minor erdtrees are grown with the remains of fallen warriors, likely using their runes, perhaps the souls feeding the erdtree are a pointless system, because the original tree was burnt. If the tarnished used to have the grave of gold in their eyes, which I believe to be traces of the power of the sun, I’d imagine burying tarnished would suck out any last remnants and grow a new erdtree that glows with the same golden color. I also wonder if the primordial form erdtree was literally made by burying all life inside it, similar to the giant ancestral spirit elk. If the original erdtrees roots were previously at the nameless eternal city, it would have had similar scenery to the other ones, flowing with animals and spirits prior to astel taking its moon away. (Side note i think the third lunar princess is not referenced due to this event.)
Idk, what do you guys think I’m eager to hear it
I think that Radagon is not THE scadu tree, but A scadu tree, to be more precise, I think he is the shadow of the minor erdtree Marika planted in the shaman (miru) village, as the only sign of regret for sacrificing almost every single one of her kins shamans/miru/spirit tuners.
That's interesting.
Wait wait wait this makes sense, that Marika’s race are like some kind of tree people. When you graft trees together you do have to wound the trees. Those wounds arent clean and the sap (tree puss and scars basically) does play a role. The Hornsent were grafting trees who just also happened to be people. And being Long Lived but Seldom Born makes sense if they are trees! And! It explains how eternal youth and rot could inhabit her children AND how she could reproduce with herself! It is POLLINATION! The ERD tree is just as much Merika’s body as the humanoid we fight! And Radagon is joined with her because the Scadutree is GRAFTED to the Erd tree!
We had to burn the Erd tree and kill it to actually end Merika’s life because her spirit inhabited the flesh AND the wood. Unless you kill both she would not be truly destroyed. And! A tree can hold things inside of it and live just fine if it grows up around that thing!
(Edit: please forgive the spelling of character names, it’s five in the morning and I am too sleepy to look them up lol)
People being part tree also explains Milania and the other scarlet “clones”. They were CUTTINGS. Literal clones of Milania!
I still think there's tidbits you're missing. First off, it's never explicitly stated why Radagon was cursed with red hair and when, and this ties together with Hyetta's speech about the One Great.
First came fractures, then births, then souls.
I think this is quite literal, and I think the fire giants lack of a stomach is a design indication that the Giants didn't have the ability to give birth.
I think Radagon actually precedes Marika, and is the canonical origin point for the start of Births as Hyetta mentions, where Marika is responsible after that for the creation of souls.
I'm not sure where my current lore theorizing is taking this, but it makes sense if you look at the more ritualistic lifestyle that the hornsent had, it's less 'soul' and more 'birth'.
I'm not sure where i'm headed with this yet but you're right about your point about differences between the japanese community and western community.
You are mixing the fire Giants with the trolls, the fire Giants did have stomachs.
@G4meplus well i'm not sure if you would go as far as to classify a 'fire breathing mouth' an actual stomach, but i wouldn't go as far as labelling it as such. And i think the distinction is important. Titans seem to have made the rocks that make up the land as evidenced by all the calcified titans everywhere, fire giants seem to have given birth to trees and soil and you can even see this imagery in the last section of the mountaintops. All the fire giant corpses are literally puking up three branches (that don't have thorns compared to the one branch sticking out of their back)
My current thinking is that Radagon represents a missing link, as lots of the themes in elden ring are modelled after actual historical evolution/natural selection.
Good point about marika & radagon not becoming one through the jarring process because look at miquella & st trina he never was jarred & he still had his other half
Yes this is good. Best theory about how Radagon came to be I have heard so far. I too didnt like the theory about Radagon was put into the same pot. Only if there was an indicator that Radagon was part of Hornsent society, perhaps a high nobleman or the king. Then the statement of the old Hornsent grandma would make sense. I don't think she called Marika a slut out of anger, Marika must have done something that explains the insult.
Could it be that the shadowy arm of Radagon is the same kind of shadow that also obscures the top of the sacred tower?
one thing disagrees with me, because this theory suggests that marika transcended alone. this isn't a known pattern. for marika to reenact her elden ring, you have to be her lord. for ranni to become god, you have to be her lord. if miquella could take the gate alone, he wouldn't have needed radahn. if he was afraid that a soul could bound to him, he could have just kept trina.
one thing to note is that miquella is a character with 2 different souls: miquella and trina, who can interchange and split. his mother could be very similar. radagon could have been born from something and lived in marika as her alter, and that could be the loophole marika abused at the gate. that also probably explains the reason the hornsent fuse the shamans, and also why marika was spared: because she was the one successful candidate, or the one to inspire the practice of fusion.
another idea is that radagon is a hornsent smith. he made a needle, and his job is to repair the elden ring, so one could make the leap that he practiced in the special smithscript technique, perhaps that he made his son a smithscript spear as a gift. radagon acts as marika's lord, and they fuse at the gate of divinity, which is likely what will happen to radahn as well if we didn't stop him (you can somewhat see that miquella is partially sinking into radahn).
oh yeah, btw, i think what radagon throws at you in his boss fight is a golden smithscript needle. he's known to have needles, or thorns, and the way it returns to him after being thrown...
and given that his children with marika are all cursed... makes you wonder if they have always been a fusion from the start...
and if it is true that radagon likes to smith or to make stuff, then that's probably why miquella is such a good inventor
What about Messmer being the son of Radagon? There must be a connection not only because of hair, but the Messmer them is based on Radagon's
What about him, Marika most likely conceived Messmer after ascending to Godhood so no contradiction there.
@G4meplus if I'm not mistaken Marika became Godess and shortly after the crusade was lead on hornsent so Messmer should be alive. Maybe the timeline is not so clear to know that or I'm missing something. I also wander if radagon has some connection to the bearded Moses guy holding a tablet. They both are coming from roots and are representing some form of order (bearded guy holding tablet is like 10 commandments)
Also I was just playing and at belfries is depiction of some other important figure from the past that is surrounded by roots. Damn I hope that nighreign is going to unravel some mysteries XD
@@szymonnawrocki890 from what we can gather there is a huge time gap between Marika's ascension and the cursade, here is a quick recap.
First the cursade was ordered by Marika secretly and Messmer was her scapegoat, he took all the blame while Marika spread the propaganda that she didn't know anything.
She spread that propaganda through banishing Messmer and his soldiers (the children of nobles from the capital) this banishment lead to the birth of colleseum dueling where people can watch the snake infested gladiators get killed (the snake became a traitor to the Erdtree) .
We can learn from this info that the Erdtree, the capital and the golden order as a whole was well established before the crusade.
The more important info for the timeline is the following tho, we were told that Messmer was like an older brother to Radahn and that commander Gaius (the leader of Messmer's army was taught gravity magic by the same alabaster lord alongside Radahn )
This has only one meaning, Messmer was still in the lands between (the cursade didn't start) for a very long time after Marika's ascension, Radahn and his siblings weren't born until after the Giants war, the second luirnian war and the peace between the capital and carians which lead to Radagon marrying Renalla and giving birth to Radahn and his siblings.
Messmer did witness a ton of events in the lands between before getting banished for starting the crusade.
@@G4meplus yes you're right. Also the serpent lore is crazy. The eternal serpent, abyss serpent, eiglay, the possible snake eye in dlc trailer. Still so much unknown variables
Thank you! Neevr liked the jar theory. Why would Fromsoft ignore all the lore in the base game and just spring some new exposition on us. It was a ref herring.
You have mindblown me
What if Radagon was originally Marika's husband when she lived in the Shaman village. This would be when Mesmer and Melena are born. The Hornsent take him with the other members of the village and stuff them in the jars, thus motivating Marika and Mesmer to start a crusade. Then she beckons Radagon's soul back to her at the Divine Gate.
I don't think Radagon was her husband, the hornsent grandam calls her a strumpet. Also the shamans as far as we know are exclusively women.
Another important thing is that the hornsent stuffed one shaman with a lot of their criminals why would they stuff another shaman with Marika?.
Lmao these dudes need to be on jerry springer with renala and godfrey
If u flip the elsennrint symbol the big one it looks like a swords hilt
Do you have any idea why Miquella has Trina then? I thought that every god has something akin to a "shadow" side that we never see besides for Marika and Miquella. I would love to hear your opinion!
Miyazaki said in an interview that empyreans tend to have a dual nature, Miquella had one and he said that Ranni double face was a nod to the duality theme.
Of course Marika/Radagon follows the same theme but, in my previous video I came to the conclusion that Marika's original dual personality was the Gloam eyed queen while Radagon came later on as stated in this video.
This is a great theory and i think you’re probably right about Radagon’s origin. However, how then do we explain Miquella & Saint Trina? They’re heavily implied to be two sexes & distinct personalities that shared the same body, similar to Radagon/Marika, which is why i’ve always assumed it was just a trait that demi-gods were capable of inheriting. Do you have an idea on this?
Empyreans can have dual personalities without the divine gate yes, in my previous video I came to the conclusion that the original dual personality of Marika was none other than the Gloam eyed queen.
@ thanks for the reply! I used to believe that myself, but i’ve come to believe the GEQ is in a similar position to Velka from Dark Souls in that she isn’t as relevant to the story as most of us want her to be. That said, i’ll give your video a watch!
Probably a complete and unlikely crapshot, but imagine for a moment if all along Radagon was the original and Marika had been the creation. That it was Radagon who ascended those steps and Marika who was born from the divine gate's use. _Radagon_ is Marika.
Dunno, just a stupid/funny 'what if'. But what a complete sidewinder that would be.
Damn, that would be quite the plot twist.
counterpoint to ur argument against the jar theory, we have examples of single personalities emerging as a result of the jarring rituals ! ironfist alexander & jar bairn are both made of multiple people but identify themselves as one person while also being able to hear & commune with the souls of the individuals theyre made of. radagon could be the first instance of the flesh amalgam 'saint' gaining a separate, self-reflexive ego like alexander or jar bairn
also missed a great opportunity to acknowledge that malenia also bloomed into a tree ( in that it has bark & blooms ) in aeonia
My only question would be this: why aren't they in jars? They are unmarred physical beings rather than the fleshy amalgamation we see in the dlc. I'm curious what your thoughts are, especially since I'm kinda new to figuring out this sort of complex lore.
@@Novaling116 i don't think theres a direct answer because we're talking about a universe where characters go from having horns & a lot of physical bulk to no horns & extremely skinny in an instant. so my explanation would just be that unlike the other shamans marika was able to fully incorporate the bodies into herself & return to her original appearance, which is what made her special among the 'empyreans'. malenia becomes the goddess of rot in an instant. miquella is able to discard his body in the lands between & still have flesh to additionally discard in the land of shadow, & when we see him in the endgame he's grown a second pair of arms. i think the logistical 'how' is less important to the designers than the thematic 'how'. & in this case i think it makes thematic sense to view marika/radagon as a successful jar saint
@ That's super interesting to think about though! I know I definietly toyed with the jar idea, but the body thing is what I couldn't justify in my head. With being a special kind of empyrean, that would make up the gap easily! It's also pretty dope from a storytelling point of view too, at least to me, and it would showcase just how fearsome Marika really was and how much Miquella takes after her in that way.
@@Novaling116 I mean it's pretty obvious, the dynamic of Miquella and Malenia is pretty reflective of that between Marika and Radagon.
Although it has few diffrences on how it played out.
Malenia inherits the traits of Radagon, while Miquella inherits the traits of Marika.
you didnt address much honestly. The 'gods return' bit seems significant yet no one can make sense of it so far..
Whenever people bring up radagon is part giant, it always triggers me for some reasons
Great explanation, the only thing is Miquella had St Trina before the divine gate and not after. Not saying your theory is wrong, just saying dual personalities was before the divine gate
Indeed people can have dual personalities without the divine gate, my previous video was talking about the gloam eyed queen and I went to the conclusion that she was the original dual personality of Marika, check it out if you are interested.
What u mean ? It makes sense and works with your theory, my head canon is that Marika was a numan who was a successful "jar saint", she was merge with champions like every other jar, but this one worked and she was recognize as an imperyam and accepted in the horntsent society, when she did the ritual godfrey was suppose to be there to be the lord but didnt get there in time and marika was force to do the ritual alone and it went wrong radagon came alive inside marika and influenced her
But why would Numen and Shaman be the same? All the Numen stuff is very far away from Shaman village and all shamans were dead so how can the black knife assasins be Numen then? It makes so much more sense that a Numen was an ingedient in Marikas Jar. In translation the Numen also means "rare people" and for the Hornsent who tried a lot to create their god it makes a lot of sense to try this very unusual kind of person as an ingredient with the Shaman acting as the usual melding glue.
@@MolochDE Numen came from the outside of Lands between, many of them lived in different areas and ideas.
Nox are also Numen but they went different route and decided to worship what order was against.
@ Jep, this sounds a lot unlike the shaman. There is clear text that Marika is of the same stock as numen and we also know she's a shaman so I think Jar is the best explaination for such a mixup
Radagons connection to Thorns and the Fire Giants are no coincidence because burning the Tree and the Thorns with the Fire Giants Flame will lead you to Farum Azula. Guys now that we know about Marikas Origin we can conclude that Farum Azula is the Origin of Radagon. The Statue in Malikeths Boss Arena is Radagon making the Same position as Miquella when he gave a Vow. Maliketh is not Marikas Shadow and Half-Brother he originally belonged to Radagon and Marikas only need for him was to Seal away Destined Death. I also believe that Beastmen are created by melting a Human with a Wolve. Also I’m sure that the first Incantations Originated from Farum Azula like summoning the Elden Beast
So Marika was half Marika, half Radagon, half GEQ ? In which order exactly ? 🙂
Check my last video about the gloam eyed queen and Marika, the previous video alongside this one sums it up in a way.
crazy idea, with probably no basis or proof, but could it be possible that radagon was potentially a lingering spirit of a former giant and THAT is why his hair is red? i can think if contradictions and plot holes as i type this but i figured id put it here anyway
Man I really wish the dlc have some new Radagon lore. I still don't believe he's a creation of Marika and he is his own person. But if he isn't, then the dlc had the opportunity to at least heavily insinuate him being a creation of Marika.
The notion that Radagon placed the Thorns upon the Erdtree is incorrect. He did not place the Thorns upon the Erdtree. Look at the difference between his Rune at the Erdtree, the one behind his statue, or the one at Raya Lucaria.
You noted how Radagon's Rune can be "made" with the trunk of a tree. If Radagon placed the Thorns, why aren't the Thorns in the shape of his Rune? His Rune is Orderly, the Thorns are Chaotic.
It doesn't make sense... unless Radagon's Rune being outside the Erdtree is telling us something else entirely...
First?!
Does being first actually matter thou?