Teaching Game Mechanics Well - Guidance VS. Hand Holding ~ Design Doc
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- We take a look at Mario, Final Fantasy 13, and Majora's Mask to discuss how games teach players in ways that either smoothly guide us through or just drag/over simplify the overall experience with excessive hand holding.
NOTE: The Mario example here is also used in Mark Brown's excellent "Super Mario 3D World's 4 Step Level Design" - • Teaching Game Mechanic...
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Can often be as simple as a dialogue option saying “Yes, I know” vs. “No, please tell me.”
And if you do this, for the love of all please put in a way to go read these things and/or a blank training room that can reexplain it. The number of games I put down only to come back to way later than I intended having forgotten how to dash or even that it was possible, and then cant relearn those concepts without replaying half the game... Yeesh.
"Sorry! I did not mean to bore you. If you want to look it up sometime, though, just look into your clever book!"
Yep. The easiest way to fix a big part of this problem is to simply *offer* the player the answer. GIve the player an ally or book or something that can give hints and tutorials and give the player a *toggleable* option to have the ally chime in automatically.
It's not a perfect fix, as if your up-front hinting (Such as passively indicating where the weak point or where the puzzle elements are) is too strong it'll still lead to the same issue of pre-solved puzzles, and if it's so weak that it makes it hard for *anyone* to come to the correct answer without the optional hints it'll be almost as frustrating, but it does make it *way* easier to make sure that nobody is left behind without insulting everyone else.
The one I have grown to prefer over time is very little handholding and then instruction manuels tucked away in some segment of the menu or home base.
Most people (even non-gamers) as soon as they start a game they just hit random buttons on a controller to see what they do. More often than not players want to experiment with your game, if they have questions make it clear they are a short few menu pressed away.
Also, screw games that tell you what buttons/sticks you press to *move.* Never have I even heard of someone paralyzed in a traditional game because they weren't told to push a button/stick forward.
You better watch out, he knows about timed hits!
10:50 Link’s Awakening does just that. A skeleton steals the hookshot from a chest and you chase him through the dungeon to retrieve it. It’s actually really fun.
I second this with Zelda Spirit Tracks: Mid-way through Fraaz's battle ( the wizard that shoots fire and ice at you ), he realises you're using the boomerang to carry the opposite element he casts from the torches he spawned from. He proceeds to destroy the torches, and you have to figure out you must use the remants on the ground of fire/ice Fraaz shoots at you instead.
Not outright stealing the item but blocking you from the initial path to his weakness.
3:43 Final Fantasy Tactics Advance has an ingenius tutorial. And it made sense in the story before the story even began.
The turn battle strategy is introduced by a game of snowball fight at their school. So once you are in the magical land, you already know the how battle system works. Additional info come later in forms of conversation pieces from other characters you encounter so it doesn't feel "tutorial-y".
Ah, good to see, that this game isn`t forgotten.^^
The sequel is pretty great at this too
game: *points at goal with giant neon sign*
Egoraptor: "WHAT DO I DOOOOO?"
You hit the nail on the head about Zelda bosses. Back in the 8- and 16- bit Zeldas, boss battles were action affairs with puzzle elements; Ocarina made boss battles into *puzzle affairs with action elements.*
Ohh yes.
The first Smash I ever played was Brawl, and I had _no_ idea what I was doing at first. I was just pressing buttons at random, not really understanding what was happening and why. It took me a while to figure things out.
I hate hand-holding in games, but _some_ sort of easily accessible tutorial that can't be missed would be nice for a game that relies so heavily on specific button combinations and a wide array of different moves.
Tie first Smash actually had a basic tutorial that started playing on the main "press start" screen, but could also be accesed through the menus.
@@HappyBeezerStudios it's been in most games in general
64, Melee, Sm4sh, and Ultimate.
And I highly doubtful that they'd remove it in Brawl, so I think it's in their somewhere. Can't confirm it tho
@@GracieJello Yep, there's a guide system in the Movies section. Pretty sure it'll play if you leave the menu screen alone for a few minutes.
...
Though young me would just spam pikachu no matter what I was told about "combos" and "movesets" lmao
@@voltsix5538 thought so, didn't think they would just remove it out of the blue.
zelda bosses being more puzzle-like isn't a bad thing, its more of a preference to want dark souls combat over puzzle combat. So the real way to judge them is "are they good puzzles?", "does this puzzle leave a good impression?" ect.
However, your complaints are also good reasons for why these "puzzles" are bad by leaving obvious weak points instead of giving us a more challenging puzzle. It's the last "puzzle" in the dungeon, they should at least leave a good impression on that dungeon after all.
The problem is that the solution to the puzzle is always the item you got in the dungeon.
This is a fantastic breakdown
Amusingly enough, Zelda actually did have a Dark Souls-esque Boss fight in Ocarina of Time (well, Miniboss), the Iron Knuckle.
It’s big, it’s attacks HURT (even if you got the Great Fairy Blessings and got a ton of Heart Containers, their attacks will take chunks out of your life), and they’ll adjust their attack patterns to exploit flaws in your technique. Dark Link also did this in the Water Temple, but he could still be cheesed with the Broken Giant’s Knife or the Hammer. Iron Knuckles ain’t gonna have that flaw. However, the trick is to understand positioning (particularly the ‘sweet spot’ range of their weapons), and counter appropriately. It does feel awesome to take down an Iron Knuckle. Too bad they’re very rare.
@@cookieface80
This, precisely. The puzzle is pointless if the solution is clear before the fight even begins.
It would be much better to require several items for every boss, used in special ways.
Imagine if for example Volvagia (OoT, fire temple) required you to stun him with a deku nut, pull him down with the hookshot, then smash the mask with the hammer.
The game had three item slots, yet bosses rarely required using more than one.
I'd say, an example of a puzzle boss that is done right, is the boss of the Ancient Tomb, in Oracle of ages.
I once made a quick game in rpg maker, I was fooling around with using a mechanic I learned from a friend. It was the first time I felt I needed a tutorial for something. I didn't want to hold anyone's hand though, so at the beginning of the game , I set up the protagonist b in taught by his sword teacher, the teacher asks you to choose your opponent. The choices were, challenge another swordsmen (your brother or sister), fight a mage (your friend), or challenge the teacher. The thing being that the teacher is not a tutorial, it's just a hard fight, because selecting the teacher unlocked hard mode for the rest of the game, giving enemies more hp, increasing shop prices, but unlocking a special quest to find the other combat instructors and to defeat them as well, adding four new mini boss fights that paid off in a legendary weapon to kill the final boss who (I admit) turned out way to hard without the weapon. The added weapon for defeating it was added last minute and I didn't just want to hand it to the player so I hid it in a side quest that isn't too hidden since your first teacher tells you it might be a good idea to challenge the teachers across the land.
My friends liked it, though the over all game was just a two month practice game. The story is pretty cliche. I was thinking of using it in the game I am going to take all 2019 to try and finish. my first biggish game!
demonheart13 love to see it!
Any way we could follow along with the development process if you're still working on it?
@@deus_ex_machina_ hi. This was a one year project that's finished now. A game I made for myself and some friends. I don't think I'll ever make it public though. (It's mostly oldschool puzzle game logic and inside jokes for the people who I planned on playing it)
Ironically, I sometimes felt that this video over-explained its arguments a bit lmao
Same here. It didn't feel concise or potent enough in its main points
Well, this doesn't have the purpose of the audience figuring out stuff as a challenge. I think it's fine
Fortunately, this isn't a game.
The issues with Odolwa are made all the worse when you know that they weren't there in the original. In the original you could use everything you had found up to that point against him and it would work. No stupid eye, now singular strategy, just a guy you had to beat using whatever means necessary.
I guess that's why they changed the boss, since Zelda is supposed to be a puzzle solver, not a beat em up. But yeah, I enjoy Odolwa in the original compared to the 3ds version.
All the bosses changed to have that weird eye thing while forcing you to use the transformation masks the entire time. Goht is the same, just now you stab the eye instead of the body. Gyorg is same as Goht with the new Zora controls. And Twinmold is "HULK SMASH!" instead of big boi slash.
Actually you can still use any item on this boss on the 3ds. I killed him without using the flower because I didn't even notice it.
@@stefanocappelli I killed Odolwa without using the mask because I found it annoying to switch between wearing the mask and not.
I don't know why your channel is so small tbh. You deserve more subs. Love your content!
E1M1 on Doom makes a pretty good subtle tutorial. You learn how to move in a nonthreatening environment, assuming you started on a lower difficulty. You get some explosive barrels as target practice, you can learn to move effectively by going up the stairs to the left, you have to learn how to open the door to get out, you're faced with a very nonthreatening pistol zombie. After that, you learn about projectile enemies, an Imp up a ledge. Easy enough. Then, in the next room, you have to face one on the ground, putting your skills to the test.
And the first Imp also shows you that you can shoot enemies that are in a higher level than you
True, it teaches you about auto-aiming if you choose to engage with the Imp. The game even rewards you if you choose to backtrack back to that area where the platform has now lowered and you gain a shotgun earlier on than you would otherwise.
Good thought! Indeed.
The Golden Sun series has some great teaching mechanics, especially in the second game. For example, as you climb up Gaia Rock, you'll see a tiki statue blowing a small cyclone at a vine, and the vine sways in the wind. This teaches the player, indirectly, that they can use the Whirlwind Psynergy on vines to swing across large gaps. Or on Magma Rock, there are tiki heads spitting fireballs at each other to show that you can use the Burst Psynergy on them. Because Psynergy is such an integral part of solving the puzzles in the game and replenishes automatically as you go through dungeons, there's little punishment to the player for exploring and trying to figure things out on their own. In general, the series tends to be very forgiving of failure, but often rewards you with high tier equipment if you're willing to figure out a more complex puzzle solution.
Just a question. Did you only play Majora's Mask on the 3DS or did you play it also on the N64? Because one of my major complaints about the 3DS version is that every single one of them have the stupid eye weakpoint, which wasn't the case on the original.
I've played both which is why I specifically refer to the 3DS version.
The retooled bosses in MM 3D are a golden example of the issues with modern Zelda boss design.
In the original N64 version, the bosses act more like overpowered enemies so your approach to them could vary wildly. One cheap way to kill Ghot was to wait at the door and just shoot him with a fire arrow as he charges by. Against Odolwa in the N64 original, I simply used my sword on him until he died, dealing with his tricks of course. I guess the devs wanted to make the 3DS version more of a puzzle than straightforward, which kinda hurts the flexibility you had.
The sword worked on Odolwa before using a Deku Nut? I could've sworn I tried that, but if you get too close he'll just hit you with his sword.
S-wo it would work if:
He didn't jump away
He didn't hit you back
The bosses in MM had alot of creative ways to overcome them that they never told you about. I love finding them out and I feel like a genius compared to players who complain about bosses like the fish in great bay temple... like you never really needed to enter the water, and you can usually choose as to when you want to presuming you were smart and didn't get knocked in.
I used Bombs...for everything
"Sometimes without guidance we become lost"
>Shows Metroid Prime 2.
Comedy gold.
this is a nice video, but it's worth pointing out that the "Fine line" you talk about, is more of a narrow bridge, and it wobbles. Or to be more accurate, it's in a different place for different people. You belittle some of the zelda games for their neon light, but the audience for the game has a very broad age range and has to work for kids as young as five, right through to adults in their forties. Even if the age range is much narrower, the experience level, mental capacity, or even just patience for hand holding/ learning time can vary wildly from individual to individual.
What I do know for sure, is that the fewer and simpler mechanics there are in a game, the wider the bridge becomes. Having said that, I also know that even though I've designed many games from many genre's, I've never felt that I've got it just right, even on the simpler games. So feel free to disregard my comment entirely.
Responding a whole year too late, but perhaps the players should be given a chance before they are eventually given a helping hand. Maybe the giant eyeball could only start glowing when the player really didn't catch it, after a while has passed and no hit was registered. That way younger, casual, or new players can still get their guidance, and experienced players aren't punished for being just a bit sharper than the game's expectation. That would be the same kind of mechanic Mario 3D World uses with the golden tanuki suit.
Wait they added a big dumb eye to the 1st boss in the Majora's Mask remake? why tho....
I get why but it's really dumb.
Yes it's dumb, but it still requires more effort and skill than the original version. The old one doesn't require much thought beyond stabbing him until he's dead, making him little more than a glorified regular enemy. I'd take any number of dumb weak points over that kind of super lazy boss design.
Magnat Cleo the original battle was dynamic and allowed for multiple ways to beat the boss. The remake is just redoing the same thing three times. Thats not a better designed boss, thats turning your boss into a chore
they put those eyes on every single boss in the remake, like gyorg (the big fish you know) has one right in its mouth! which doesn't make any sense at all!
It makes use of the deku scrub's abilities pretty well since you can fly up and use the deku nut to stun it and knock it down. or you can slice at the legs enough to trip it either way it exposes the weak point if you do either
The issue with people thinking things are being over explained is that games need to be playable by new players and younger players. What veteran players call the right amount of explaining will leave anyone who hasn’t played before confused and frustrated because the game is unplayable without the extra knowledge that returning players already have.
BotW has the one giant cover his eye from arrows which I thought was cool
To this day, I'm confused on why he brought up Odolwa's name
yeah still wondering...
Stellaris is a great example of a "Tutorial" that doesn't tell you enough. It plays out as though it's assuming you have a cheat-sheet or wiki in front of you telling you where all the menus and hotkeys are, because when it starts out telling you how to play, it doesn't tell you HOW (or more importantly where) to do any of the things you need to do. Yes, it will say "Go to the [name of screen] and select [such-and-such]," but there are tons of icons and buttons, only one of which is the screen in question. So you are basically left to poke around in the menus until you stumble upon the thing you need. (One time they tell you where a button is, which makes the total absence of such instruction glaring going forward.)
It's funny that you used Odolwa as an example because I didn't even notice the flowers on the floor and I beat him without ever using them.
Only controlling the main character in rpgs can still be awesome if done right. Rogue Galaxy comes to mind.
Teammates call out wondering if they should use something (with an audio cue and all) and you agree or not while fightiing. I dunno, made me feel like actually the leader while not mindcontrolling people that were not "me"
This RUclips channel saved my life. As an Indy I knew next to nothing about what ACTUALLY makes a game good besides the game objective itself, thank you.
You really don't get the credit you deserve... Your videos are great!!
There are very few actual puzzles in the Zelda series. You see an eyeball, you shoot it. You get an item in a dungeon, you use it on everything until you win. A lot of obstacles can only be cleared through pure trial and error, like finding the one block that can move. The games make you think you're learning and improving when really you're just following a 30-year-old routine.
the point on bosses and eyeballs made in the video is much valid, your argument is not. zelda dungeons are full of puzzles and challenging and ultimately it is not always straightforward to figure out where to go or how to get there. using an item on everything or having trial and error are "tactics" used often in adventure games, whose entire gameplay is composed of puzzles. more often than not employed when a player is not paying attention or is not that britght. granted sometimes you just stumble upon bad design. but this is NOT zelda's case...
i really like these videos man! i can tell a lot of hard work goes into these, and it definitely shows!
i don't remember a whole lot of zelda bosses having large eyeballs as clearly visible weak spots, so i looked it up and turns out they put them on multiple bosses in the hd remakes for some reason.
I feel like Metroid: Other M needs a mention here. A final boss that gives you no hint on how to defeat her (unless you’re already familiar with the series) and only a few seconds to figure it out since you’re taking continuous damage. Indeed, there is fate worse than overexplained mechanics.
I don't see how Phantoon gives no hint on how to defeat it. Unless you were talking about the last Metroid you fight, which is bullshit even if you did play the earlier games because you're just supposed to know that you have Power Bombs. It's also not the final boss, Phantoon is.
Zelda is a children's game though. I would say that the first boss after a new mechanic is added is ok for hand holding but should also give them the ability to try new things.
Majora's mask actually had bosses that were fairly open to interpretation of how to beat them.
When I first beat it I hammered each boss with arrows. That's all I did. On later playthroughs it becomes obvious how many ways there are to beat the bosses.
Odolwa can be brought down in 4 different ways (assuming no later items)
1: Arrows from young link.
2: Bubble from Deku link
3: Using the flowers to stun him as he walks over them
4: Dropping deku nuts onto him.
If you have later items you can use bombs to deal heavy damage, stun with the hook shot and fire arrows absolutely destroy him. Granted, the 3ds version tells you one way to do it but there's so many more ways than just the deku nut method.
You mentioned the Deku fight at about 11:00, and a good way to give information about how to defeat a boss w/o making it too obvious is through lore. Either story books like the DA series, NPC dialogue, or even nonverbal lore, like Abzû's wall murals.
Talking about Dekus, Ocarina of Time did it right with its first boss. The Deku you stunned previously in the Tree tells you that the Queen's weakness appears when her eye is glowing. Now, in 2022 that sounds obvious, but considering that OoT was the first 3D game ever for many kids in 1998, to pay extra attention when her eye was glowing (but without telling you exactly what to do) was indeed a good hint.
Easiest way to turn me off a game is "it's not the greatest for the first while, but eventually the game opens up and THEN it's amazing". Like I'm not gonna waste my time being bored to reach the good part.
Why haven't optional tutorial missions become a staple in many franchises by now? Some people need/want far less guidance than others, especially if the game is a sequel.
It's also worth noting that not every player requires the same amount of explanation. Some people are better at figuring out things than others and some people have played previous entries in the series. So even if you have the right amount of guidance for some, it may be too much or too little for others.
One of SA2's greatest levels is its tutorial level, City Escape, because it perfectly introduces players to all of Sonic's core mechanics. When you start the level, there is a snowboarding section that forces you to move forward. Immediately, there are three lines of rings: first, in the middle of the road, where you WILL hit them; then, along the right side of the road, which you must move over to grab; and finally, on the left side of the road, leading to a trick ramp. Within 15 seconds of the first level, the game has already taught you the core of the Sonic formula: move forward, react quickly if you want loot, and be stylish. If you haven't quite grasped that concept, the game ensures you will soon after. You're in the middle of San Francisco, so there are cars driving around. Hitting them doesn't hurt Sonic, but it does slow him down, and causes a car avalanche that screams "Mistakes were made!". The ramps aren't just for style either; they're the only way to grab loot boxes high above, and let you avoid cars if they are used correctly. At the end of this section, you're dropped into a safe area to familiarize yourself with Sonic's traditional movement: running. Despite its simplicity, the area is filled with even more lessons on core concepts. To the left, hiding behind a hedge, is a small animal, incentivizing exploration. An Omochao is present too, and introduces itself as an optional tutorial if touched. There are 13 more throughout the level, and none of them stop you from moving. Instead, they follow you around as they tell you OUT LOUD, with subtitles, what they want to, before returning to their spot. Ahead of you, there's a raised area, and numerous ways to reach it, including stairs, a bright red grind rail, and some boxes neatly stacked in the corner like stairs. You can even reach it simply by jumping, grabbing the ledge, and pulling yourself up. Once there, the game's first enemy appears: a single robot, who fires a bullet traveling half the speed of smell about every 15 seconds or so. He's no threat. Immediately past him, you are introduced to another core concept of Sonic gameplay: riskier and more difficult routes are more rewarding. A double line of rings leads you towards a curved wall, which you'll ACCIDENTALLY run into, and up the side of. You'll be presented with a 10-ring box if you successfully traverse it, but are punished for failing with another simple enemy. Either way, you're now forced to learn somersaulting to destroy wooden crates that block the only path. Beyond them, a trail of rings atop more rails introduces grinding properly, and even gives you the chance to chain 2 rails together. At the base of these, a speed panel shoots you up a curved wall, introducing you to yet ANOTHER mechanic quickly and elegantly. The camera now shifts to present your next goals: a ring box, and the level's first checkpoint. The way it is framed encourages you to use the homing attack to grab the loot and keep going, but there are other things to consider: below the box is a pit with moving cylinders. Failing to hit the box may cause Sonic to fall to his death, or land on the annoyingly slow platforms. The stairs to the left are a safer option, but offer no reward. Below you, out of sight, is an area that you might accidentally fall into if you aren't careful, but won't hurt you. In fact, there's another Omochao there, who teaches whistling, which can call small animals out of pipes. The genius of this tutorial is that its more likely to be found by people who want to explore the game's levels, AND it will ALWAYS be useful to those kinds of people. Throughout the entire level, the game repeats the formula: include a concept early, for those familiar with the game; properly introduce the mechanic; offer an optional, straight-forward, text tutorial; increase difficulty; emphasize risk vs. reward; and encourage style with literal style points.
My favorite positive example is, as always, Etrian Odyssey. Especially the later games use the isolation principle to teach you how to handle enemies. The first couple of floors of a stratum would introduce new kinds of enemies one by one, or in groupings that are relatively harmless. Then, the later floors of a stratum stop introducing new enemies but instead shuffle them up in combinations you haven't fought them before.
For example, floor one has you fight an enemy that starts the battle asleep but will start throwing very powerful attacks at you once he wakes up, so you learn that you have to kill him in a single turn, because attacking it will wake it up. Floor two throws an enemy at you that uses an attack that deals damage to every combatant, both allies and enemies. Then you get to floor three, get into a random encounter, see those two enemies together and just go "uh-oh."
Psychonauts 2 feels like a good example of a tutorial done right
Speaking of teaching players how to use game mechanics, I'm making an RPG Maker MV game where the player can press the shift key to activate a text box with a choice that, when you say yes, teleports you to the dungeon map for grinding EXP and stuff. How do I teach people that the shift key does that? (if you say no in the choice, the text box reminds you that you can press shift to teleport to the dungeon in case they pressed shift by accident so they don't get confused like "how tf did i do that" which I often find myself thinking in some games when I do something the tutorial never taught me about, such as jumping in Toram Online)
The ambush at the Fedra gate at the start of The Last of Us is a good example of how to teach a lot very quickly, there's an explosion, the player takes damage, the game teaches them to turn around quickly, then teaches them to run for the first time, then teaches them to patch themselves up when the player is at a safe distance since they took damage at the start of the sequence. Thats 3 mechanics taught within a matter of seconds in an instance that also feeds into the greater narrative, good stuff there
That jab @ Uncharted in the beginning of the video, love it!
I don't get it. It really isn't that different from any old chase sequences in every ND game ever.
I found this channel today and when I saw this video of course I instantly had to watch because this is the first thing you see in a game and the first thing I always comment on. Hand holding is one of my biggest pet peeve's and I think you did a good job summing it up.
I think the Kirby games, especially Super Star, and Super Star Ultra do good at this, by giving you the full moveset of every ability, and how to pull it off, but not telling you what it actually does so you have to figure it out yourself.
I came across an interesting design problem for tutorializing my current project.
As the project in question is a tactical survival horror game.
With one of the aspects being around slightly more involving gunplay that takes into account magazine & ammo management, weapon length & weight, tactical and quick reloads, stamina management and manually operated weapons needing player input for cycling the loading action.
Now all of this would be quite an annoyance to learn during gameplay through trial and error and it would be quite costly to incorporate it to a campaign.
So my solution is to put the player in individually accessable tutorial levels (like in many tactical shooters and older games too) and spice it up with a wry and snarky instructor that likes to joke a bit on the players expense.
As an example; giving the player an unchambered shotgun and telling them to go ahead and shoot at a target and then either snarking at the player for being surprised at the dry click or applauding the player that was clairvoyant enough to pump the shotgun or perform a brass check.
I think the only Zelda boss from LTTP onwards that actually requires more than just the dungeon item that isn't a different dungeon item is the Turtle Rock boss in LTTP, which requires both the Fire Rod, an earlier dungeon's item, and the Ice Rod. The Ice Rod isn't gotten from a bombable wall hidden in the normal world, so it can be missed. You don't even need the dungeon's item, the Mirror Shield, in the boss fight itself. The only other one I can think of is Moldorm from various games, which is just "don't get pushed into the pit while you slash at its glowing butt."
Honestly, among the Final Fantasy games, I personally think 12 did the best combat system, it was in-world rather than battlefields, you didnt have to sit and wait for enemies to attack so you could have a turn, making full ranger parties more viable, and as far as how AI is controlled, we were given the Gambit system, a completely dynamic battle system, "oh, My has % of their health left? I'll use on them," "My is at % health, and I have % of my mana left? I'll with my weapon, I should conserve mana" and you werent forced to use Gambits either, you could turn off Gambits PER UNIT and tell the game "yeah I'll manually decide what Vaugn is going to do when his action is ready"
Hello there. I am writing a paper on exactly this topic. Do you have any sources I could read? This video has been super helpful but I cant us youtube videos as a reference.
You would help me out alot! Thanks :)
Good video, but as you showed 2 examples of the 2 extremes, i think you forgot to show an example of a balanced solution, and I think that would have made a better video, because after the end of it I was left with a sense of confusion on how to avoid these problems
Your videos are excactly what i need, thank you so much
8:36 also the big glowing eye
Regarding your proposed solution of a puzzle boss getting wise to the solution and adapting their strategies, I remember that the first boss of the Metroidvania Aquaria famously did that. You fight it before you gain any offensive powers, so you can only hurt it by luring it into a trap and activating a piece of the environment. This is easy for most of the fight, but for the last it, it wises up to what you're doing and will immediately retreat after you lure it forward, forcing you to adapt your strategy so you can activate the trap quickly enough to hit it. I remember finding that beautifully clever, and I wish more bosses did that -- behave more like a real, living thing with its own intelligence. Zelda bosses, with their puzzle-like structure, should definitely do that more.
I don't remember Odolwa having the eye in the original Majora's Mask. Was one of the few bosses I fought without needing special items.
Actually, I always forget about and discount the deku bomb ability when flying in Majora's Mask, so to date I've not once fought Odolwa that way, and instead gone toe to toe with him in a straightforward fight every single time, never really considering that approach.
Wait a minute! At 9:04! Was that taken from the Best Friends Play playthrough of DS2?!
I was like "lol that custom character looks like Woolie... HEY WAIT A MINUTE--"
Huh... I've played the original and the 3DS remake of Majora's Mask a few times, but I don't remember that being how you beat Odolwa in either.
I like the most when the game gives me the core tools right away and lets me figure them out for myself, with only the truly abstract mechanics being left for tutorials.
Just tell me how to attack, dodge, and parry. I prefer it that way!
There is one boss in Skyward Sword that has multiple arms that it uses to hide its weak spot.
I've yelled at Cappy from Mario Odissey "stop telling me the solution! Let me at least try first!"
If you're looking for a game that masterfully teaches it's mechanics, just play the first 30 minutes of Nier Automata.
Another one is Xenoblade Chronicles 2.
Teach the player a new mechanic after they master the former one
You mean 2 hours, because you can't fucking save until you reach HQ.
TeamRabbit Alec the pacing on all xeno games is as good as the one from ff 13 and this is said by someone that likes the franchise
@@teamrabbitalec I love XC2, but the tutorials are badly explained. They are rapidly shown, and they teach you more how to use an ability than how to get it. Orbs are a great example. You learn that when you use a driver art enough, you get a blade art, which applies to your team, as well. But most people who played it did not understand how to build up orbs or what they mean. I accidentally finished Permafrost crash in late chapter 2, and while I thought it was cool, I had no idea what I just did. I had to go online to learn the game mechanics.
Good point.
A game that has somewhat the opposite of what you describe is almost (not sure) any Compile Heart game.
The studio will have you read an game manual as a "tutorial." Sometimes it does a good job at explaining mechanics, other times it gives you so much information that it is hard to take in.
For example:
When Moeru Chronicle tells you how to capture monster girls, it tells you everything at once. It tells you about the 5 different "moves" you have to do capture them. Each with their own buttons and combos. Then the game tells you the most efficient way of capturing the tutorial character.
I prefer to be lost instead of having too much tutorial.
But when there are complicated game play mechanics, like a complicated battle system, there should at least be a small and intuitive explanation.
If the tutorial is explicit it should be skippable.
Never new what they meant by mechanics until this video thanks
I don't get why people keep calling XIII a long tutorial for the first 20hrs. Because when you reach Pulse, nothing changes. You expect something more from a tutorial. You're free to experiment but the game never gives you interesting problems to solve like what you expect after a tutorial. For example there is no enemy that does AOE attacks and must be taunted to control him. There is like 1 enemy fight with fast enemies that interrupt and require you to taunt them. XIII-2 had one of the best puzzle boss fights in the series where you had to alternate aggros between two characters. In fact taunting is rarely present in FF games and it's one of the few games where tanking could actually be a thing, aside from the MMOs.
Hey Design Doc, I love your video's and want to learn as much as possible about game design! But I really need some help on how to teach players how to do a move without having someone 4th wall breakingly tell the button combination to press. How does the player know how to ground pound? How does the player know how to Homing attack? I would love to get some help on that subject!
I've only watched 3 videos from you and two of those ended up being about how much FFXIII sucks, lol.
Zin Armagadan yea same two videos ive watched. Its the reason ive not subbed
As long as the reason he's hating on it for design reasons, it makes for a good example since it's the "failed" entry in a very renowned franchise. (And curiously, one of the few FF's I've actually beaten.) I'd rather he use that than some game I know nothing about.
He did do a little senseless browbeating here, though. Okay, 20 hours, we got it.
Still way too much time for a combat system to become fun. A gooddesign would make it enjoyable fromthe start, even with limited resources.
Seriously, 20 hours is so bad I'd mention it about 200 times if I'd have to review that. 20h is longer than the main path of most non-RPG games!
You're just being subjective
man, i simply love your channel
thanks for the quality content
10:45 I thought the mini bosses in the dungeons were there to guard the key item for the boss.
Kyle Henderson odolwa, blocks your arrows, ghot is actually FREED by your fire arrows, ice arrows... never tried it on the fish, and light arrows... never tried it on the centipedes.
Even in the last boss fight you've a variety of tools that may or may not work on each of majoras forms just depending on how they play
Light arrows work on Twinmold (in the 3DS version, only on the first one - the second half requires using the Giant Mask).
rmsgrey still a waste of magic
Depends whether you've invested in some Chateau Romani lately...
rmsgrey I know but still a whole side quest of that much time jyst to kill a boss... I mean not gonna say I didn't do it time to time
i liked ocarina of time tutorials, it was like quests, cut the grass, remove the stones, cut the wood posts, walk sideways to avoid the rocks, when you finally find an enemy you already knows how to move and use the sword
I have played Hook, klocki and Push by Rainbow Train on Android, and I gotta say, these guys are masters of guidance and learning curve at mobile puzzle games.
I would like to point out that super Mario 3d world that is based on a form of Japanese poem. The level introduced a mechanic in a safe environment, developed it by putting it over a death pit, twisted it with the shockwave enemies, and concluded it with the flagpole challenge. While this is similar to the isolation technique, the twist does not necessarily require another mechanic.
If you are interested in this poem level design technique, game Maker's toolkit has done a wonderful video on the topic.
For more check Mark Brown's video "Half Life's 2 invisible tutorial" It's very informative too.
The Odolwa example is really funny, because that part was only added in the 3ds remake.
Revenge of Shinobi uses the isolation principle: China Town requires a perfect jump in a safe environment. The Breakwater level then requires a perfect jump with failure meaning death.
Have you played Final Fantasy XIII-2? I found it a way more compelling experience. You get to interact with the world around you, talk with NPC's and explore more. Same kind of combat but with some new additions to add some flavor and customization.
- Took me a while to even give it a try, as XIII was such a let down, but I was actually pleasantly surprised by XIII-2.
I still think Spirit Tracks had some of the best Zelda bosses that actually challenged your technical skill. Fraaz: Master of Icy Fire was my favourite because it was a combination of puzzle solving and anticipating his attack patterns.
It definitely does. Bosses that didn't make use of multiple items usually had tricky patterns and/or actual ways to defend their weak point with projectiles/AoE attacks.
I was just watching that part and I never played the HD version so I was wondering why I didn't think of Odolwa as a bad boss. Now I know why..
Compare SMT Nocturne vs Persona 5. Nocturne makes clever use of it's mechanics and enemy placement to teach players the ropes without ever stating it flat out so that they know what they should do once they hit the first mayor roadblock that is Matador. Compare that with P5 that just never shuts up and constantly has to tell you what to do and how to do it.
That's a lot to do with gamers these days too. While I agree that Persona 5 taking an ingame month to get going is overkill, I lost count of how many threads there are of players complaining about Nocturne's Matador simply because they never bothered to learn how to use the press turn system properly.
Persona 5 is a fucking mess of a game. I don't get why people like it so much.
I have to agree with you. For me it is mostly the story and the way it handles it's messages that really kills it for me. But even then it felt lackluster in general, and it felt like it constantly treated the player like they where a complete idiot. To me the game was all flash no substance.
nocturne is beautiful
also painful
Even Matador was a tutorial in itself. Teaching players that their approach to combat might wrong. Dante afterwards taught players (at least in Hard Mode), to keep your party healthy, or get killed by spike damage.
Wait, THAT'S how you're supposed to fight Odolwa!?!
He's so easy to defeat by just mashing him with the sword!
It always bugged me that the flowers were so irrelevant in that fight. Now I finally know their purpose!
"If you've done your job right, they won't be sure you've done anything at all." Some quote, probably from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
Futurama, from the episode where Bender meets God.
I'm kinda new to the world of game design, but I have been making some games as a hobby for a while now. As a math academic, I like to think of tutorials in terms of theorem proving: a good tutorial should give the player all necessary "premises" to reach the "conclusion" (i.e. what I'm trying to teach) through logic. The way those premises are discovered involve applying already known stuff (stuff like "press A to interact with objects", "press the direction keys to move" could be considered "axioms" of some sort) to discover the premises, and after the premises are known, it should be easy to reach the conclusion. If I give way too many premises, the game is too hand holdy, but if I give too few, the game is inscrutable. If possible, I try to not interrupt gameplay to teach anything unless strictly necessary.
This is what I use to keep my tutorials from being too hand-holdy. I'm still not great at game making, but I'm trying to use this logic system for now, and so far I think it's been working.
Me clicks this video, me, an italian, subtitles randomly pops on: chinese. Yes, thanks
I just discovered your channel and I'm loving the content !
"Why can't it be good in the first five [hours], or better yet, why isn't it good in the first hour?" (4:37)
It reminds of Jedi Outcast: "Why can't I have the lightsaber in the first hour?" (like in Jedi Academy)
I'm pretty sure Odolwa doesn't have an Eye on its head in the original Majora's Mask. There it was pretty much up to you to figure out how to beat'em.
Soooo... yeah, there is that
I usually make sure the game either give the player the option to say they already know or wait a while to make sure whether they know or not
9:10 Link fights a dragon looks pretty cool I thought it was from Skyward Sword, however I saw a icon of Midna which only confuses me because I'd played TP to death and I don't remember this boss.
What?! You basically have a whole day of boring playtime in final fantasy 13. that sounds like a problem!!
It kinda was tbh, especially as the paradigm system was, as he said, mainly designed around a 3 person party and almost all of that 20 our segment was spent in only 2 person parties. Other issues with the combat system were the fact that the auto-battle system was mediocre at best and that if your party leader died, it was game over and you couldn't switch leaders mid battle.
10:10
Wait, that's how you beat him? Man, I just used the bomb plant thing to knock him on the ground and slashed his eye away, I knew that it was taking way too much time, he kept jumping around so I couldn't throw the bomb
9:27 what about shadow of the colossus
Sonic adventure 2 does a good job with teaching you gradually through isolation. Early levels for Sonic/Shadow teach you basic mechanics with rewards and later add in perils and hazards.
This is why I love Navi, people find her annoying but honestly she's one of the best help you can get, especially when you put the game aside for a good amount of time, picking it up again and having her to remind you of where you have to go (plus the Navi dive glitch but ssshhhh)
Anyone else ever get stuck on the first big boss from Wind Waker? Inside the cave.. I never looked up till my 5th try or something and then it was simple
"Shoot the core" - Gradius.
basically this guy: "How to find balance in 1 easy step: figure out how to find it well"
Shocked that you didn't mention the Ravenholm chapter from Half-Life 2
Is this acceptable?
In my game I will have dialogues explaining stuff, but control is never taken away from the player so if he/she so desires they can ignore the tutorial text and just move on.
odolwa was a good example of a boss that shows off its weakness and let's you hit it but you could have also compared it to the original fight from the n64 majora's mask where that giant eyeball doesnt exsist and its actually not clear how to fight him at first and explaining about how making that change for the remake essentially removed all the sense of accomplishment when defeating that boss.
I don't know. Wasn't the original version of the MM bosses pretty much just "Hit them a bunch of times with your sword"?
@@Heroshii15 With your sword, with the deku flower, with deku nuts oor with arrows. You decide on how to approach the game.
interesting, most interesting I liked this video and took notes
can some one explain the "clock work" world mechanic he keeps mentioning? thanks
Where is the song at the beginning from? I know it from somewhere!
Your videos never get old