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Outback Wilderness vs. Forester Wilderness [Sarah N Tuned Reaction Video]
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- Опубликовано: 2 фев 2022
- I didn't have time to make a full feature adventure episode, so I'm experimenting with "reaction video".
I compare footage by RUclips SUPERSTAR @SarahnTuned . I'm a huge fan and drove a satin white pearl 2015 Forester XT, just like the one she has. I have no idea if a video like this will piss her off, but I hope it doesn't. I say nothing but nice things about her.
Anways, who wins? Subaru Outback Wilderness or a Forester Wilderness? watch the video to see! This is also a battle of transmissions. TR690HT vs. TR580. Turbo vs. Normally aspirated!
Check out the original videos by Sarah N Tuned here:
Outback Wilderness
• Off-Road Torture Testi...
Forester Wilderness
• 2022 Subaru Forester W...
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*CVT Defender has entered the chat*
I think the TR580 has a really good track record already (both daily dependability and off road) and giving it more aggressive gearing was enough to give it an advantage over the TR690 in the Wildy Outback.
That said, the crawl ratio in any Subaru really isn't all that great. Off road a limited slip or locker goes a long way.
To my knowledge Subaru has only used Viscous Limited Slips outside of their WRX/STI cars for a long time.
Those to me never seem to be worth the trouble from having watched several in action essentially act as an open diff.
My fellow youtuber car nerd! You’re one of the few people that would understand this question, but why do you think Subaru hasn’t retrofitted the TR580 for high torque applications. 🤔
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I've had the thought too! I've come to a couple possibilities:
1) Bean Counters.
They had XYZ amount of cases/internals lying around from the initial production in 2010-2012 and told the engineers to make it hold more power via retrofit. I'm not sure why they would continue using it into the Ascent if this were the case but it sells in such low numbers it might be possible.
2) Engineers.
The TR580 is physically smaller and lighter (substantially if you see them side by side) and they really don't take well to an extra ~50% increase in torque. This would make some sense since it was designed from the ground up to be smaller, lighter, and cheaper to produce.
3) Politics.
So and so's brother promised the production management(?) that the TR690 would stay in production until date XYZ since patent / licensing rights would be guaranteed until such time.
I dunno. I think 1 and 2 is most likely, possibly a combination of both. It is odd they make an entirely different transmission that shares no parts with each other. But they've done it before with the 4/5EAT. At least those were simply bought from Nissan/Jatco.
With them making both in house I understand not trusting the TR580 with a huge increase in torque it wasn't designed for but why not make a HT TR580 if that's the case?
I do wish I had 4.44 gearing and VTD in my Gen 5. Something I plan to retrofit in eventually.
PS: Not counting the XV hybrid here in this convo since it's my understanding it doesn't use a Subaru CVT but is closer to a Toyota CVT. I'll find a cut away pic to show.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring another question is why don’t they add an LSD from the factory….. That’s my 4 year mod or a torque locker.
A great video, yes, keep making them👍. Going to trade in in my 21 ascent for the SFW. Originally wanted the Forester, but this trim level wasn't available then. You are leaving out one key element, the FTD factor (Fun to Drive). Every RUclips reviewer of this SUV (and I have watched them ALL) couldn't contain their excitement, enthusiasm, or happiness. Whether verbal or nonverbal, they all were just flat out having a blast putting this SUV through its paces. You have thought they were driving a dune buggy 😂. Ordering mine in...the GREEN of course! One reviewer said he thinks they used the Warthog as a model 😃
Interesting that the high torque CVT has a lower torque converter stall speed. Makes sense. The higher the rpm difference between the stator and turbine means more torque multiplication. So they are likely using a lower stall speed to protect the CVT.
.
For crawling, you don’t have the load and RPM to get the turbo going which means you have far less torque. So the N/A engine with higher converter stall speed is actually transferring more torque to the wheels for crawling which allows the brakes to raise the axle torque up high enough to move the vehicle up that incline.
.
Open diffs are always 50:50 torque, so lifting a wheel means the opposite wheel gets the same torque which is nothing. So if you want to transfer 2000 lbs ft to the wheel with traction the opposite wheel brakes need to provide that much clamping force which means you need 4,000 lbs ft of diff input torque to allow the wheel with traction to transfer 2,000 lbs ft and get you moving. And if you have a good AWD system you’re at 20:1 or less crawl ratio, so you need 200 lbs ft from the engine to generate it (More cause of inefficiency).
Yes, more of this please!
Love you, bro, but Sarah would be more fun to hang with just for the color commentary😂
No offense taken. I love her “bolster test”, and comparing leather to walrus ass 🤣🤣🤣
I actually bought the forester wilderness over the outback because I believed the short wheel base and more aggressive gearing would make it more capable than the turbo longer Heavier outback and after watcher her review of both cars in the same spot giving the Outback multiple tries I was right. The forester is just a better off roader platform in my opinion. I did send my rear diff to get custom fitted with a rear locker and gave it a 1.5 inch lift so it’s a beast now
Nice! I’ve seen an Outback wilderness with the torq locker, but I still observed torque converter speed stall. A Forester wilderness with one sound like a “weapon”! Congrats on your ride !
can you elaborate on this? Any recommendation on rear locker selections? or where to start?
@@timothylim8728 hey Timothy I used a torq locker but have since sold the car and bought a land cruiser
Quick question please. Isn't the rear diff lock going to mess up the AWD system ? I am thinking about getting a rear diff too but the concept of it and AWD seems contradict to each other.
She did kinda influence me getting a Forester wilderness.
Researched this car segment for the last 2 months, my findings, - 5th gen forester rated #1 in safety and readability over all others including RAV, trial hawk, honda and bronco sport. That said, it has been a long road for Subaru from the CVT tranny , oil consumption, head gasket issues of past generation vehicles. At 6'3, CR just announced the Forester is #1 with tall drivers as well, no surprise as the "green house" visibility is very attractive. All the safety dings can be disabled permanently, with the exception of engine on/off at stop. After market solution will solve that as well. So, I will be picking up my Subaru Forester Wilderness / pearl white next week. Comfortable driving on and off road, safety and readability, looks, honest service advisors that I have visited with during this time, all have pushed me this direction. And finally driving my daughters 2017 Forester premium, sold me on being a Subie owner. Suggested maintenance to ensure long life; 30k diff (F/R) service, 40k CVT Transmission service, and oil changes every 4k.
Compared to the Outback, Off road analysis/videos show the turbo in the Outback gets totally in the way of performance when climbing, as the Forester's new gearing and software changes bring much more to the equation over the turbo, in my opinion. ruclips.net/video/ZF_JtgJ7aKQ/видео.html
HAPPY TRAILS but MIN ROCK CLIMBING for this cowboy. 🙂
I think the problem with the Outback is the turbo lag. Forrester maybe NA but it's higher compression when turbo is not running thus better torque response lower down. The Outback before turbo kicks in is lower compression ratio thus less available torque. Also, I think the high torque CVT has a lower lowest ratio than the standard CVT.
More of these. Compared to the typical RUclipsr, I think your (Jon's) strength lies in your deep technical knowledge (TR690 vs TR580) and real world experience wheeling with others (comparing Subaru to Honda & others). Doing these reaction vids allows you to get your knowledge and analysis across to your viewers without having to do the time consuming process of shooting and editing videos or recreating specific scenarios on the trails to illustrate a point. Look forward to more of these.
On to the video itself. It is very odd that the TR690 seems to cut power earlier than the TR580 since its suppose to be the "stronger" transmission meant for high torque applications. Its paired with the turbo engines and requires the "hi torque" CVT fluid. Maybe it's all in the software programming for these.
Thanks for the kind words NK! I have a clean track record with RUclips, I just hope I’m not hit with any copyright penalty points. From my understanding, a reaction video is fine.
So, about the TR580. Why hasn’t it been retrofitted for high torque applications? The TR690 was, and they called it the TR690HT. Will Subaru make the TR580HT?
Yes, I agree with NK Huang: it's your knowledge and experience that can add value to these videos. And like someone else said, I totally thought of what you'd think when I watched these on Sarah's channel.
Dude! That was good. Sarah is an honest reviewer... watch her also. You filled in some technical being you had owned one. I enjoyed it!
For anyone thinking about buying a car, make sure you ALSO check out what Sarah N Tuned has to say! She keeps it honest!
(Sorry in advance for the book )
Xmode is useful when you either WANT some even spinning all around within limits (sand, snow, mud) to preserve momentum, or when you want very controlled movements with as little slip as possible (steep grades with gravel i.e.).
I agree that the deep snow mud Xmode is the most useful all around for all conditions and all Subarus would benefit from having this be the default if they have nothing else, but I like the ability to modulate how off the hook the torque vectoring is allowed to operate.
You would not want these more aggressive Xmodes to be default for normal driving because the system would be thinking and working too hard, affecting brake wear and MPG's. Not to mention you would not want torque vectoring to be happening when rounding a slippery mountain curve at 50 mph.
I think the failure of the Outback had as much to do with throttle control and turbo lag as CVT stall. Both were fighting each other, and the momentum killing torque vectoring which kills speed as it applies brakes right when you want to move (Xmode deep snow mud helps with this).
I forget if Sarah had Deep Snow mud Xmode on in the Outback, but she's pretty sharp, she likely did. I think it was more an issue of power controlability where the power is too low, you hit the beans and it comes on too strong causing progress followed by a spinout and then torque vectoring stall, and usually the operator if they are not used to the OBW is also letting off the gas, right at the wrong time because the power went from 0 to 100 too quickly.
All these factors cause the Outback Wilderness to lose momentum when the less powerful Forester can keep a more steady progress going. With practice it is possible to overcome the weaknesses of the OBW by modulating the power more carefully, and using manual mode on the CVT ( an unproven theory I will try soon) and keeping it in first gear on challenges like that hill, and NOT letting off the gas as much when you get that power surge. Unfortunately the turbo kicks in like a booster rocket, and you really don't want that when offroading.
Personally I think the OBW is the better all around choice for me, but I acknowledge that the Forester Wilderness is easier to drive and more mannered when it comes to the power band.
The OBW can fight itself in tough situations and requires a driver who knows what is going to happen and how to mitigate it. At the end of the day the OBW has more power than it really needs for offroad situations. the gearing was the far more important enhancement, and in some ways the CVT playing sync with the Turbo AND torque vectoring is a dance best danced when not on a steep slippery grade.
That is why I recommend using deep snow mud, putting it in first manual (simulated), traction controls off, and give it only enough throttle to handle the task, and be ready to resist the urge to let off the gas when you get too much power, just ease it back and keep that momentum.
I would love to try that hill in my OBW with this advice and see how it does. But much respect to Sarah. I trust her attempt and her skill. I am sure the Forester is more user friendly, I just think the OBW can do it with the right input.
This CVT is supposed to be the higher torque one and it should NOT be the reason for failure. I believe it cannot be compared with the other 690 directly for purposes of lower gearing since all the Wilderness models have a lower final gearing which make 1st in a Wilderness lower than the other models across the board. I haven't confirmed this with actual numbers, but I have heard it in advertising and reviews countless times, and the 0-60 numbers would seem to also confirm it. It has a lower gearing. I am unconvinced that the gearing is the problem here. I think the vehicle just needs to be tuned to work with itself better. It is stopping itself with software, not mechanical CVT shortcomings.
It is very hard to modulate power on the OBW between light and medium without the beans really kicking in, and causing the torque vectoring to kick in to stop it. It can be done if it is your car and you are used to how it responds to driver input.
But, disclaimer, I've only had mine a few weeks and haven't really had a chance to test it in these kinds of challenges. I am installing the skid plates this weekend and will do some moderately challenging softroading in the next few months. I also have new wheels and tires on order so that I can give it more "beans" and have less slip.
Also keep in mind that neither of these tests were with aired down tires. I am sure that with my oversized AT's aired down to 15 psi I could give it the beans on that hill and it would power up it. And I trust my ability to keep momentum without going too fast. It is a challenge with this one, but you get used to the way the engine responds.
I will say that I have been trying to take it easy on my OBW for breakin period (Im old school) and have basically been keeping the RPM's below 2K 99% of the time.
The surprising thing is that the car does great below 2K and Im sure Im not even using the turbo. So this car has plenty of power driving on the road. When I have wanted to accelerate a bit it seems to just really take off and the power and upshifting happen so fast that I am where I want to be so quickly that I don't believe Ive ever had it over 3500 rpm. Granted I am babying it a bit still.
But bringing this back to an offroad perspective. That sort of instant on response is great for the road. Not so much for a rutted dirt path. And I expect I will have to get into the throttle a lot deeper in those situations, which will only make it even more likely that it will start out great, get too torqy, and brake itself to a stop. They don't need a sport mode with the OBW, they need a Moderated mode where the beans are mapped to come on slower and more steady up to a respectable level. But my foot is getting trained and I am delighted to have a vehicle with the problem of TOO MUCH power too quick, because the other problem is even more frustrating (not enough too slow).
And hey, Subaru, a low range transfer case would solve 90% of these problems. We are using a torque converter to compensate for being in too high of a gear.
BTW I totally agree that the Crosstrek Wilderness done right will be the greatest little offroader. So much potential and you can put the right wheels and tires on it. Databyter
Thanks for taking the time to type all that out! It’s a contribution to the community none the less. At the end of the day, this is just one hill test where so many factors come into play. This test “crosses the axles”, and when there isn’t enough wheel articulation, wheelbase and track width come into play. Sarah did another video where a Nissan Frontier, couldn’t make it in 4WD Hi, and it struggled in 4WD Lo. Also, in my latest video, I found her hill and test it (not aired down). It was a tough test, I even got a AWD system hot warning. In 3 years of owning my Passport, I’ve only had that warning 6 times, and this was one of them.
Sarah head dirt and snow on
Nice video Jon! Definitely liking the looks and capability of the Forester Wilderness over the Outback Wilderness. Might consider trading my Onyx OBXT for it, but not sure if I want to take that big of a hit on power. Guess there's just a tradeoff between power and offroad capability with the two different CVTs.
Thanks Dustin! Actually it was you and Sarah that inspired me to get my 2015 Forester XT back in the day. So, I’m out here in Tuscon, Arizona getting rock sliders for the Passport and I just happened to be 5 miles away from Sarah’s test hill. While only 20 degrees steep, it’s very rutted and was quite challenging actually. I can completely understand why the Outback didn’t make it. I actually didn’t make it at 3 mph on Normal mode. I had to use sand mode (simulated locker) to get up. I used the same parameters, I didn’t air down (I was at 42 psi). The narrow track width of the Wilderness forester may have helped, I’ll need to get back home and study it on my computer, but the next video will be a deeper dive into this obstacle, so stay tuned!
From experience, the power in the Forester wilderness is totally adequate. The lower gearing actually makes it feel pretty spicy at low speeds
Very interesting. I am looking at getting a new vehicle. I want a 4WD or 4x4 truck / SUV. I tend to keep all my car for long periods of time. I love the new Ranger but don’t necessarily want a turbo if I can help it. We have had a 2013 Pilot and love it but stupidly did not get AWD. I have narrowed it down to Forrest Sport or Wilderness m, Honda Ridgeline, and Outback Onyx (Non Turbo). I haven’t and don’t really go off road. I might do some light off reading once I get once but so drive up to Reno (Snow) often and would be nice to not worry about the whether. Now that I’m a little more mature I don’t need a super fast car and ten to drive less fast now days.
If you want a vehicle that will last, the Honda Ridgeline/Pilot/Passport are the only vehicles, that you mentioned, that are on the “most likely to hit 200k miles list”. My 2015 Forester had the CVT fail at 60K miles, and the current Subarus still use the same TR690HT and TR580 transmissions, although the non turbo models you mentioned, will be much more reliable than the turbo models.
My 2019 Passport is sitting on 120K miles and still going strong despite much more abuse I put it though. If I was to buy a new vehicle, it would be the new 2023 Pilot Trailsport or a Nissan Frontier Pro-4X. I won’t go turbo again, and it’s sad to see that even toyota is headed that direction.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Thank you for the input. Our Pilot has been super reliable main family car with no major issue just regular maintenance and wear and tear stuff. I have always wanted a truck. I love the new Frontier but wish it had more back space and rear vents. I have a Mazdaspeed3 and some issues. I too won’t bug Turbos if I can. I am a tuner guy and loved Civics and Integras back in the day. But just not for me, in my opinion more thing that can go wrong. Thanks. Sad to see the new Tundra with a Turbo.
Methinks the reason for the X mode being a button has more to do with the longevity and nature of the CVT
As technically the whole point of a CVT is for efficiency,
which funnily enough in an offroad situation it might be more efficient to be in a lower gear, however, we know CVTs can not maintain
that kind for application to long as the inherent logic means the bands are always trying to "Vary the ratio" which isn't advantageous on that climb for the OUTBACK
Not to say its all bad, rather the button has to be a mediator
as it goes against the CVTs programmed logic ( and I'm pretty CAFE standards aren't helping)
That was a great reaction video. You explained what you saw rather than criticizing what she did or didn't do. You should invite her onto your channel to discuss it further.
Thanks for the kind words, but I’m a little insect compared to Her. She’s a RUclips superstar 🤣
I'm agree with you Jon, the new Forester Wilderness show a very good improvement. I own a FXT 2014 with now with 176 000 miles on it, i replace 2 time the CVT with used one and i add CVT oil cooler to it, i think is the best mod we can do to improve the longevity. You ask about the utility of various X-mode, personally i prefer it because gas mileage if is set-up always in X-mode II it become probably overheat, excessive gas mileage and other issues. The different mode as purpose in different road or off road condition. Take a look on the review of driving sports TV on the Foz Wilderness (2) in the snow...
Transcooler and a scangauge II to monitor transmission temp. It’s good to know when to take a break 😃
Love this comparison. Kinda wish Sarah had done one too. Thanks for comparing. I own a Forester Wilderness and I too think that it is more capable than the Outback. The different CVT gearing with dedicated cooling does more for the Forester than the Turbo does for the Outback. I am not sure if she used XMode in the Outback when she went up the hill. Glad the Forester made it though. What I do find interesting is the 60 series tires on the Forester vs the 65 series tires on the Outback. The Forester would have more ground clearance than the Outback if it was wearing 65's.
I agree 💯
Definitely more of these so we get more apples to apples comparisons. Brings it all together and challenge’s manufacturer’s marketing
Ahhh … I’m supposed to take delivery of an OBW in about 2 weeks. This video was very helpful!
I have a 2018 FXT… do you know if there were any transmission changes between your old FXT and my “facelifted” version? I’m considering lifting and investing in some off-road mods, worried how much of a limiting factor the cvt will be :/
Yes, they improved a lot of the small parts, the Most noticeable being an upgraded chain belt. In 2017, they added the simulated shift points, which is suppose to be safer for the CVT. Just know that you have a 9:1 reverse crawl ratio, the 2.5 with the TR580 has a 15:1. On the trail my white 2015 Forster XT was on, I got stuck trying to climb an obstacle, then I couldn’t back down because a rock was on my rear wheels. I was “stuck”. If It wasn’t for my friends, I wouldn’t have broken free.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring that is extremely helpful to know, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to go into detail! I watch your and Sarah’s channels regularly, even after you traded in your foz haha
I love Sarah! 👏🏽😂 I’m not hating the reaction video, it’s really good actually.
Haha, thanks Robbie!
Great video! Many people claim in Sarah’s comments that if it was in deep snow mud it would have made it up. To be fair it shouldn’t have needed that so called mode on
She took the new Honda Passport Trailsport up that hill with no problem. I thought that was interesting because another guy who reviewed the Passport against the Outback Wilderness said the Subaru was superior throughout the video. His bias was apparent from the beginning though he pointed out important differences between the two vehicles before he did the challenge.
I’d love to see them compete back to back but this is as close as we can get as a scientific trial! I’m still looking for a wilderness Forester to trail with and do some head to head tests. I know it would outperform me but I’m interested by just how much.
Also lesson learned save yourself some $$ and gas with the forester unless you love a turbo and a wagon design.
Yeah, especially when loaded down with gear and roof modifications that greatly increase wind drag, the turbo will become very very very thirsty. For example, Jeep 3.6 V6 got 18.5 mpg doing 80 mph driving through Arizona to Overland expo. Jeep with the 2.0 turbo was getting 12 mpg following behind us. He was drafting and STILL got 12 MPG!!!
@@JonDZ_Adventuring ya I’ll pass on turbo engines…. Lag and also extra maintenance and issues not to mention lower mpg…
This is an excellent video.
Yeah mate, cool video.
I think you're fine as long as you're respectfull. You were so it's fine :)
I'm hoping the wilderness will ever come to Japan. Saying that, I will likely keep my e-boxer for years to come as it does what I ask of it. No extreme off road though :)
I'd been wondering the same thing about why the FW cleared the hill and the OBW choked in the middle. You can really see on the 3rd attempt the power almost like pulsing the wheel like it couldn't decide how to give it, it's bizarre. And it's not just this one, I've seen other (too many...) OBW vids over the last couple months, and you can see other people's cars getting into the same type of obstacle, and that same hang-up/pulsating at the wheel.
That’s my experience with the TR690HT. While very much improved, when pushed more and more it eventually has the same result. The videos of the Forester Wilderness (by driving sports TV) show it is less prone to transmission speed stall. From what I see in these videos, it seems to be at a level that people could call it a “competent” off-roader. I expect big things for the Crosstrek Wilderness if they take the 2.5 and do the same thing (or better) with the gearing of the differentials and CVT ratios.
I have a video with my friends OBW on a gnarly trail. He’s a skilled driver and only stalled once, which exhibits his skill.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Yeah I'd been on the fence as to getting either a FW or OBW but I think for the money (and less of it) I'll be going with the Forester. The OBW is definitely a nice car and comfortable, but I feel like there's a bit more value in the FW, for those that can cope without the turbo at least.
@@michaelbergman5095 I will say that the turbo offers almost nothing off-road and that you're also getting way better angles and infotainment system with the fw
jon the kind of guy to make a reaction video and mute himself
LOL!!! I was rambling about the low definition cameras, I didn’t want to sound Whiney! Hahaha. It’s 2022, why do some car companies use cameras from the 1990s? My dash cam uses better cameras 🤣. My Honda has a higher definition camera.
I wonder if the X mode helped at all in the forester? she tried the climb in normal in the outback, Also isnt the Outback heavier?
I watched her video and she engaged snow/dirt mode (x mode type 1) in the Outback wilderness, the same mode as the Forester wilderness.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Can you show us the timestamp for this? I've been trying to look for it but I can't. Need to know for my own personal OBW. Thanks
@@TheAkak24 10:28 in Sarah’s original video. She puts it into snow/dirt and leave it there. In the outback wilderness xmode stays on, even if you go over 25 mph (I hear).
Good video again Jon. I do like reaction videos. I know nothing about these areas. My source of travel is little different as u saw in the past lol. I wanna see if I can make it up that 😁 good job and stay safe.
Thanks DJ! I think your Burb would make it up this hill just fine. Solid axle articulation would make easy work of this.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring just about to where I wanna be to start 4 wheeling again. A few more small things then I will be hitting you up on a future run 🙂
I just realized I need to find quick disconnect Solution for my front and rear sway bars. We will see
I liked watching this. I had the same tho when I watched those two videos but I was surprised that Sarah doesn’t mention it.
Please make more very informative. I noticed it happened but didn’t know the background that you shared thanks.
Thanks 🙏
Great video, i have lifted forester sport and thinking about getting another Subaru or honda passport. Not sure which way to go i like the 9 speed trans
The 2023 Honda Pilot trailsport was announced. The just drove it up a rocky and steep trail in Colorado. Very impressive, but no details are out yet.
Also, Two very different vehicles with different price points.
I think with x mode, it splits torque 50/50 all the time. That may not be good for pavement use.
It looks like the flex that the Forester has is better than that one the Outback. And that Ridgeline made that hill look like a cake walk
I saw the Forester wilderness with its front passenger and rear driver wheels spinning up in the air and it still made it up. There definitely wasn’t flex there 😃. The lower output motor shows to have a better CVT.
The Ridgeline climbed it sideways, that was all twin clutch rear differential. It ran into adversity, but magically diagonally walked up.
By flex 💪, I guess I'm just talking about how much the tires come away from the wheel wells. I could be wrong about the forester having a little more give. And I admit that I'm no where near as knowledgeable about specs and info with the awd systems as you. I just love cars, off roading adventures, and nature.
I love the reaction video! I used to have a 2018 Forester 6MT so my X-Mode was 1st gear lol. It makes me wonder if a manual transmission Subaru would have outperformed the CVT... (On a side note: I just saw that the 2023 Mazda CX-50 will come with AWD, a 2.5-liter turbo 4-cylinder, and a 6-speed automatic transmission. It looks like a Subaru Wilderness with an automatic transmission lol. It should be interesting to compare when that comes out.)
Thanks! I had a 2010 WRX, and at the time they only came in a manual. Did your Forester also have brake based traction control? Or was it just center vicious coupled?
I saw pics of the Mazda CX-50 as well. Looks good. Well just have to see how it does 😃
@@JonDZ_Adventuring honestly I have no idea what brakes it had lol. It was a 2018 Premium Manual Forester. It was pretty capable, I took it up a mountain road with stock Geolandar tires. I traded it for a Nissan Frontier Pro-4x, but really miss it. I think the AWD paired with a manual transmission is really the sweet spot for those Subarus.
Love Sarah and great reaction! We can all agree Tough love Subaru!
I’m out here by her obstacle (450 miles away from home). I made it up, but only using my most capable terrain mode. In my normal mode going up 3mph, I just couldn’t find traction. It’s actually a really challenging obstacle. Also, If she used any more momentum, she’d wreck these vehicles. Most AWDs shouldn’t be able to complete this obstacle at full tire pressure, so it’s very impressive the Forester wilderness made it up.
Modes are for videos game generation that like to push buttons. They will never know what it's like to get out of a truck and lock your front hubs and drive a 4 speed manual. .. I saw a couple reviews said that the forester wilderness was better to drive with the cvt that then outback wilderness and they attributed that to the turbo motor does not go very well with the cvt. Which I can see how that would make sense.
Haha! Ain’t that the truth!
So, the CVT that pairs with the higher output motors is of an older design. They just retrofitted it to handle higher torque. I wonder why they haven’t taken their better CVT, and retrofit it for higher torque. The TR690HT has a recall right now in the Outback XT and Ascent, it’s proven time and time again to be less reliable.
very interesting! Would be interesting to see what tires each car had and amount of wear. That older Subaru might have had less aggressive tires with more mileage on them.
Fun video!
The Outback and Forester from Sarah's videos that Jon is reacting to both have Yokohama Geolander G015 all terrain tires. I *think* Jon ran those on his '15 Foz XT as well. The Honda Ridgeline that makes it up the same obstacle in Sarah's vids run Firestone Destination LE2 (or LE3?) all season tires. Considering these were all relatively new vehicles when tested they probably have fairly fresh rubber.
You are correct M K, I ran the G015s on my FXT. In the video clips I had freshly mounted Hankook dynapros ATs 😃
I wonder if she put the OBW on xmode..
when I saw this sara n tuned episode, I wandered what Jon Dz would think!!!
😃
Great video.
I think I understand why so many people are trading in their forester sports for the wilderness. I haven't ran into any issues with my forester sport yet, but it's honestly tempting to go for the wilderness.
Sarah attempted this obstacle with the forester sport. It didn’t make it. I wonder if they did more than just the upgraded gearing and software improvements. They could have improved the center diff to make it lock a letter better front to back. With the axles crossed up, it didn’t even skip a beat. Did they sneak in some mechanical LSDs?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring yea, I was really disappointed after seeing that video. That being said, I'm really wondering the same, it seems to be a bit more than just the tuned cvt. I'm also just how much these forester wilderness models would benefit from a proper long travel suspension lift, and maybe even a torque locker though, it didn't look like it needed the locker. One things for sure, if I ever trade my sport in for the wilderness, I'm definitely going to move the ironman lift I've got over to that.
@@JDS-Dalton the forest wilderness is geared 16.7:1 (with apparently a good torque converter), the Outback wilderness is geared 15.5:1 (with a quicker stalling torque converter). It’s more than the mechanical advantages, they really tuned it perfectly. Between Sarah’s video and driving sports tv uphill snow video, the FW is showing it’s a willing adventure mobile. There’s obstacles I’d love to see the FW attempt over here in California. I’d like to see it’s limit.
@@JDS-Dalton the revised suspension is actually really good, so much so that I'm not going to replace with the Ironman ATS until it wears out. It's not much lift but it has much better wheel travel and is actually hella comfy off road
@@norincofan1949 I test drove one yesterday, and it is nice, but I've already got the ironman lift on my '19 sport, and it's less than a year old. But so far, I've been to several places where I've needed those 2 inches of lift, and the longer travel made it perform better than other foresters with 3 inch spacers and torqlockers (to an extent) so I'll definitely be moving it over.
Nice my element would had to turn around haha
Haha! I hear it’s not that bad in person. I may try to visit it this coming Monday during my visit to Arizona. I hear that this might be on private land, and if that’s the case, I won’t be trespassing.
3:53 true off-roader 😂😂
I imagine that the Outback Wilderness has more software interference protecting the transmission from the higher output turbo engine. Not needed in the 180 hp Forester. Also the outback is heavier which does not help matters. That said the Honda is a much better vehicle. Wondering what engine Honda will use next year?
The torque converter specs also have something to do with the “speed stall”.
They’re definitely using the 3.5 V6. It’s in the brand new 2022 MDX, but it also has the 3.0 v6 turbo. I want to see a V6 hybrid.
A honda is a “much better vehicle” to do what exactly? Relatively a Toyota or a Jeep could also be a better vehicle, or maybe a Lambo with some KO2 will climb some dirt and hills? All I’m trying to say, this particular video is a reaction about one car brand where two of its models were compared by another RUclipsr. However, you ask a Jeep or 4Runner enthusiast, their car of choice will also be a “much better vehicle”.
great video! thank you
Alot of folks need to accept what Subarus are and what they aren't...and what they are is they're absolutely great for getting to trail heads and some sketchy junk--theyre not dedicated crawlers/mudders. Love my Subarus and they've gotten me thru some sketch...wouldn't consider any of them bullet proof off-roaders tho. Glad the wilderness does well.
Well said! No AWD is going to rock crawl, and….. A lot of folks that just watch RUclips videos and don’t get out and actually hit the trails, will think driving through a moderate 4WD trail is “rock crawling”. There’s levels 1, 2, 3 and 4 before things turn into rock crawling. Level 3 is where things start getting really challenging for a lifted Subie. You’re absolutely right! Most AWDs were designed to “offroad TO recreation” rather than “offroad AS recreation”. While the local Jeep club is just an hour away from their rock crawling trail. An AWD with a kayak strapped to the roof is driving 300 miles to an alpine lake. I personally would choose the alpine lake 😄
Great comparo!
She had it in the wrong X-mode.
I agree that (it seems like) Subaru's "X-Mode" should always be on, and that the software should automatically encompass both X-Modes 1 and 2. And I wonder if Subaru deliberately split the two modes just to "enhance the value" of a higher trim level offering X-Mode 2: "If X-Mode 1 is good, X-Mode 2 must be fantastic!" imagines the marketing department.
Subaru has superb marketing! Yeah, they did that on purpose. It’s a bit messed up, because people may need the extra wheel spin from xmode 2, to free themselves from mud or deep snow/sand. It’s a software program…..
Xmode 1 and 2 are substantially different. Xmode 1 makes sense to have always on; xmode 2, no way.
@@norincofan1949 yep, xmode 1 should always be on, except for the way it tries to distribute torque front to rear 50/50. There’s also something it does with the CVT to provide more torque at lower RPMs, but all that stuff doesn’t make that much of a difference. What helps is the more aggressive traction control. That part should always be on, IMO. I
Theyre not for obstacles, just lil dirt roads and shine in terrible weather on the street. I know subaru sells em like jeep commercials but theyre not
Subarus motto back when I owned them was “Subarus are designed to drive down any road, no matter the condition”. Key word being road. But, nowadays, their marketing focus has shifted.
more of this stuff!
forester xt was way sexy compared to the newer forester in the front end
I'd like to hear your thoughts on the Forester Wilderness vs the Bronco Sport Badlands and or anything else that might be considered to have roughly the same off road abilities.
The Bronco sports badlands I a whole other beast. I want to see the Forester Wilderness vs. the compass Trailhawk on rocky terrain (not a driving sports TV snow test). The Jeep crossovers have always had the best AWD traction control system and the best gearing. It’s automatic vs. CVT. The Forester wilderness has proven in this video, that this iteration of the CVT is something to be respected. The compass Trailhawk has proven itself, so I’d like to see more of what the Forester wildness is capable of. Hopefully I get the opportunity to film one in the wild. I think the forester wklderness would match up better to a regular Bronco sport without the twin clutch rear diff.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring Pretty much what I was thinking also but I wanted your take on it. Thanks
The modes exist so the vehicle IS more capable. Traction control has to be more aggressive in some situations and be more relaxed in others. Spinning tires is great to get you out of mud. Not so great on thin layers of snow and ice.
The modes exist to better work with the operation of the CVT. The SH Forester with the 4EAT and traction control is simply more capable than the SJ and SK Foresters. There’s no xmode, you just leave traction control on for rock, and turn it off for sand / mud.
What's awesome is that the 2022 Toyota Highlander XSE made it up her hill.
ruclips.net/video/skQzTZaoO1o/видео.html
Someone forwarded that to me. It’s not under her main channel, so I didn’t know it existed! It was rough going, but the Highlander got it done!!!
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I'm a bit of a Toyota fan with a 2019 TRD OR 4Runner and 2021 Highlander XSE. Traded in our 2020 Rav4 TRD OR on the Highlander. For similar $ the Highlander is way more roomy and comfortable. Test drove multiple Subarus and just didn't find the seats comfortable. The Honda wasn't really a consideration but I love seeing your videos. Our Highlander is pavement princess but will see dirt / mud / gravel roads occasionally.
We've had some Subarus on our Trail Rides here in Missouri. They did ok - survived a couple trails without major damage. We didn't take them on the really rocky tall ledge trails. Had 1 Crosstrek with a Manual Transmission burn out his clutch. Low Range 4wd makes a huge difference on longer trail rides. Didn't get any videos for my channel with the Subies though.
Sarah said they did Not Air Down. How much do you think airing down would have helped the OB?
Airing down definitely helps. Not only does it increase tire footprint, but it also increases articulation. The Outback got hung up before the obstacle, it’s axles crossed, which killed momentum. Less axle crossing would help.
all the vehicles she tests are left at highway PSI. 2 mph more into the attempt would make a big difference.
Spanks @@JonDZ_Adventuring. (Rolls eyes) Well I suppose they leave em aired Up to simulate what 75% of people would attempt.
Yeah I tried watching her channel a few times. Her knowledge of vehicles is top notch, I just can't sub to her while other channels like you bust yer asses for subs. Not like we can get subs by squeezing our moobs together.
The Outback Wilderness has dual X mode as well.
I wish y’all wouldn’t talk over each other. That was annoying.
We have single X mode in our 19 Outback and every winter we have to go into X mode just to get up our private road and into our garage. We average 4 ft of snow every winter.
I owned a 2015 Forester XT, and Xmode didn’t really make a difference. I just used it for hill descent control. Xmode 1 would actually hurt you in snow. You’d want to just turn traction control off, or xmode 2 in a Subaru equipped with dual mode xmode.
Is the Subaru Crosstek going to be VW Golf Country?
If you haven’t seen it yet, she also took a Highlander XSE up the same obstacle. I was absolutely shocked that it managed to climb what the Outback could not.
Oh! I must have missed that episode! Well, the modern Highlander has torque vectoring in the rear differential (the higher trims). It’s not quite like the GKN twin clutch differentials found in the Bronco Sport badlands or Honda’s iVTM4, but it’s definitely not an open diff. Maybe Toyota can trickle some of that tech into the Subarus since they partner so much (BRZ/GT86 & Solterra EV/BZ4X).
That video was under her secondary channel called “give it the beans”, that explains why I missed it 🤣
A suggestion: when you give commentary, try pausing the other person's video and give your piece. Then resume their video.
Ha, I realized that half way through the video reaction and corrected myself. Thanks for the suggestion, next one will be better.
Sorry, they're both easily capable of tackling that hill. I do worse in my Ascent (the basis for the OBW drivetrain, including using the Ascent's rear diff).
Sarah got the Forester up the hill by turning into it, as she should, to load lots of weight on the front left, and send the front left wheel into the part of the hill that was going higher. You'll note she cuts the wheel to the left in the Forester to accomplish that.
In the Outback Wilderness, she keeps going straight, which is how to fail the climb. It's nothing more than a common mistake a lot of people make.
Here's an example of the Outback Wilderness cutting right to climb out of a similar but worse obstacle.
ruclips.net/video/syvLbObsO88/видео.html
I actually was 5 miles away from the hill on a trip get get rock sliders R&Ded and fitted for mass production. Check my latest video, I actually take the Passport up the hill using similar parameters. This is NOT an easy test. A 2022 Nissan Frontier didn’t even make it up in 4 HI. I can tell you and SHOW you, in my new video that this is not easy. I also show the video by driving sports TV where he puts the Outback wilderness vs. a Ford Maverick and the results were the same as Sarah’s test, just one something less difficult. So here’s the link to the new video, which is meant to prove to people 1.) Sarah knows how to drive 2.) her hill test is actually hard. ruclips.net/video/KRUFsiXpv-8/видео.html
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I watched it. I understand the difficulty of the hill - I should have said it's easy by _my_ account, because I spend a bunch of time on 4x4 trails all over the country - with the same drivetrain plus a half ton more weight and worse angles.
I am a *BIG* fan of Sarah, but, she made a mistake - exactly the one I mentioned. That has nothing to do with her skills. There's a crazy drop, rut and rock shelf descent in AOAA on their 4x4 trails, that I have failed a couple of times, by not turning at the right spot. I've got the vids to prove it that show the Ascent struggle and get stuck... as well as the Ascent easily tackling it with just a little turn of the wheel at the right spot. *_It happens_* - I still love her vids.
The OBW can easily make that climb, *if* it makes the same turn to the left in the same spot as the Forester.
Send me a pin, and in one of my next adventures, I'll use the same drivetrain in the much heavier Ascent to tackle it.
@@SubaruAmbassadorRobert I’ve done some crazy stuff in my Honda Passport, all 9 miles of Fins N Things being one of them. The reason why the Passport struggled in the new video is because of overinflated tires. Sarah tests vehicles with highway PSI to keep things consistent. I almost got up with over inflated tires (42 psi front / 46 psi rear), and with all the experience I have, it appears I’d be able to crawl up this obstacle at 1 mph if I aired down to 20 PSI, but it’s not about conquering this obstacle, it’s about testing these vehicles under similar parameters. What are your thoughts on the driving sports TV video with the OBW vs. Ford Maverick? Did Ryan make mistakes too? Or do you think the Forester wilderness will have the same result?
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I think it's about not calling it an equal test or passed/failed comparison without the same lines being taken. Alas, that's what you and others are doing. That's literally what off roading is - picking the right line - we both know that. I've got many thousands of miles of picking the right line, and the wrong one, in my Ascent, on trails just like that and far worse. It's how it goes.
It's also why off roading tests in nature (or even in prepared test tracks like Ryan's new place) can lead to different results with the same vehicle - much less different ones.
It's why, whenever different tracks are taken, or the terrain has changed due to weather, it just simply isn't a valid comparison. Sadly, that's just the way it works.
Anyway, "mistakes" is an inadequate word, but I can't think of one better. There's a negative connotation to using it that isn't intended.
As for Ryan's specific video, I'd have to watch again. I watch most of his stuff, so, I don't recall the particulars. But, I do chat with him over what I think are the differences in how a different line affected the results of various tests.
I'd still love to try that hill with my Ascent... feel free to msg me on IG or FB if you want, and next time I am by it, I'll try it.
The Outback wilderness and the Forester Wilderness have different CVTs. I’ve been observing the differences in how the two models perform since 2017, there’s a difference, most notably in the torque converter stall speed. I know you can explain why, does that have anything to do with this? Would you say that the TR690HT in the 2021+ Ascents and OBW and the TR580 in the Forester Wilderness have equal capabilities? The CVTs are geared different 15.5:1 vs. 16.7:1, maybe that makes the difference.
Failing Sarah’s test hill doesn’t mean the OBW wilderness is an incapable adventure mobile, there are other hills that she’s able to drive over. This obstacle just isn’t as easy as you think it looks. I wish I could have flown my drone over it, but comparing it to the obstacle in the video you linked in your first comment, this is twice as steep and twice as long. I’ll share the coordinates with you as long as you: 1) don’t share the location with anyone. We don’t need her test hill to deteriorate any faster 2) use the same parameters- speed, line, no turning the wheels left and right to search for traction. If you fail, you can retry multiple times like Sarah did in the OBW 3) if you make a video, show the failed attempts.
Another thing to add. I’m sure the outback wilderness would out perform the Forester wilderness in other areas. For example a tall and prolonged sand dune climb. An obstacle like that would be able to showcase the turbo engine in the OBW.
with the outback she stopped in the middle of the hill just when it started to get some momentum, and she took a different line with the forester, so not the same test
She didn’t stop, the TR580HT just stalled. The Forester has a higher crawl ratio (16.7:1 vs. 15.5:1) and a higher compression ratio (12:1 vs. 10.6:1) as well as a CVT (TR580) with a more aggressive torque converter. These two vehicles also have a different wheel base. While you may be disappointed with the result of the Outback wilderness, it did better than the Kia Telluride. On paper, the Kia should have out performed the Outback wilderness.
So in short my 2000 Sub Forester is not going to be able to climb this hill???
The speed at which this is driven up, maybe not. But back in the 2000’s, some versions of the Foresters came with a mechanical LSD. The 4EAT is solid. There’s old foresters climbing huge sand dunes that I’m not sure if the CVT would be able to handle.
Would more momentum, this test would be easier, and your 2000 Forester would make it.
Firet
Hmmmmmm… it’s a tie with @fishtaco
whats the intro song?
Don't Wanna Let Myself Down by Neffex. It's a free RUclips studio song that I could use in my video without demonetization. I just listened to the whole song, it's good stuff, especially for free music. I thought the intro line was perfect for a Sarah N Tuned video reaction.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring thanks! as an owner of an sh forester 5mt who has done the mojave road and (attempted) reward mine, i find your videos about the importance of gearing super useful.
do you think my car (stock with wildpeaks + skidplate) would be able to do imogene pass, just based on the gearing? (14.2:1 crawl, manual)
@@moneybadger1456 I think 14.2:1 would be close. If you watch this guy named blue fox, he has a SG Forester manual, he was able to get up engineer pass, which is similar to imogene pass. That would be the guy to watch! So... through RUclips studio music, I discovered Neffex. Turns out he has many youtube videos with hundreds of millions of views. The guy has a great strategy! Good lord! He has 1.8 Billion life time views! That's one way to get rich!
Whoo, first!
👏👏👏 hey! It’s been a while, glad to see you nailing the first comment 😃
@@JonDZ_Adventuring 😂 Back in first!
Makes me wonder how a bare bones Rav4 LE with the conventional 8 speed auto would do on that hill. Or a Mazda CX5 for that matter, ground clearance excepted.
I wouldn’t make it. A KIA Telluride with a 3.8L V6 tried and it just rolled back the moment the axles got crossed up.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring So the auto wouldn't provide enough additional torque at the wheels to be the tipping point since the engines wouldn't produce enough anyway - especially with a 50:50 torque split...?
Looking for a small road trip crossover with some capability to avoid getting stuck, especially the RAV LE/XLE. But this makes me think towing a quad might be a better answer. :D
X mode blah blah blah. Air down and gas it. Speed and powah!
Unrelated, but if anyone finds my control arm, lmk
I always say it…. You’re the BEST Subaru CVT driver I know 😃
@@JonDZ_Adventuring high praise brother. Thank you 😊
Is the hill really that steep?
I haven’t seen it in person, but doesn’t look that steep
Use headphones, ear buds or something because I hear an echo of Sarah’s vid.
I needed a way to sync the videos because I recorded my part on an iPhone. My webcam quality was really bad. Sorry for the echo
When she was in the outback she needed turn passenger
When in the forester she turned passenger
And more momentum with the forester haha
I’ll have to watch the original outback wilderness video, because she made 3 attempts
I'd LOVE to get "in to" Sarah!!
That’s disgusting…
… I love it! Hahha
She didn't even have it in deep snow and mud
The forester wilderness did it in snow/dirt, same settings. Without traction control, it’ll perform just like the Kia telluride, it’ll just fail the moment a wheel gets in the air.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring so the forester is actually better?
@@vilhelmstein2091 watch both videos. The Outback wilderness stalls out, the Forester wilderness does not. Also, watch driving sports TV with the video about the Outback wilderness vs. the ford maverick, they drive up a lesser obstacle and the Outback wilderness stalls out. The maverick completes the same test easier and in normal mode. Then watch the video with the compass Trailhawk vs. the forester wilderness. It appears the forester wilderness doesn’t quit nearly as easily.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring I feel like it might be BS I've seen other videos of the outback climbing hills like this
I’ve seen the outback wilderness stall out on a little curb. Watch videos from “overlanding now”
Glad we have reliable car now. Our Subaru was in the shop All The Time 😎
What for? You are definitely in a small percentage there
I really believe you have to know the outback wilderness. If you don't know your car then of course it would struggle, my opinion. The outback wilderness, can make it just as easy as the forester. Just saying....im not sure if Sara really knows how to drive in all honesty
You have to know that the TR690HT in the Outback wilderness is more prone to torque converter speed stall than the TR580 in the Forester wilderness and has to use more momentum than the Forester wilderness? She explains her test. She doesn’t air down and she uses a similar amount of speed. In more difficult terrain, a failed attempt at an obstacle means you won’t have a 2nd chance to use “momentum”. This test does a good job at replicating that scenario.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring like I've mentioned, that was just my opinion. Someone can have 1 car with 4 people driving the same car, all 4 people most likely would be driving that same vehicle a little more differently than the other 3 people. Again, just my opinion and definitely NOT here to argue with anyone
@@cliffgrando859 I don’t want to argue either 🤣. I’ve been watching Sarah for years, and I respect her honest opinion. She’s a gear head, she knows what she is doing, so I’ll stick up for her.
Also… besides TFL and (now) Driving sports TV, who else is going to do an off-road test like this?
I have another RUclips of my friend driving his 2 inch lifted 2022 Outback wilderness up a level 4 Jeep trail. He has 25 years rock crawling experience, and has taken his highly modified Subaru Brat through double black diamond trails. He’s driven many CVT Subarus, but he did get torque converter stall on one section. That guy could drive! But he found the limit of the OBW. You’ll watch other RUclips videos out there of drivers not as skilled stalling out on lesser terrain. It just seems like the TR690HT is still prone to torque converter stall.
I’m not trying to argue, I’m just reporting back with my observations and what I’ve seen on RUclips. I really want to see more of the Forester wilderness and it’s limits. So as far as I could see, it’s been kicking ass with its TR580 CVT.
@@JonDZ_Adventuring everyone has their own opinion, more power to you if you stick up for Sara. So I'll leave it at that. I've seen better reviews. Have fun and keep making more videos.
Cliff, you’re attacking Sarah N Tuned by saying “she can’t drive”. She used the same parameters for her tests. You’re right though, you’re entitled to your opinion, so I’ll leave it at that too 😃. Peace ✌️
The outback should climb that easy, she messed up somewhere.
I just did the test hill yesterday. It’s a hard test, I’m actually surprised the forester wilderness made it. Sarah attempts with the Outback wilderness multiple times and the TR690HT stalled. It could make it up if the ruts were filled in (which means it’s not making it up). A torque locker would help. My next video will give more details about this obstacle, i shot a lot of footage.
She needs to learn how to drive
That’s an interesting way to look at it. She needs to drive better to make up for a lack in capability. So, what notable offroad obstacles have you completed?
Based judging it off of ONE TEST HILL… I will definitely never subscribe to your channel
Well, you’re in luck! Because I made a 2nd video and show driving sports TV do a test with a different hill and the same result.
That’s not a woman. It’s a man baby.