Somewhat interesting comparison but the difference in timing probably comes mostly from the different rolling resistance of the tires and not from the group set.
@@MacMasoreIt entirely depends on the suppleness/rolling resistance of the specific tires in use at the pressures they were being used at. If the pressures were equal, the wider tires would have higher casing tension, so they very well may have had more rolling resistance. I didn't see what tires were being used, but it's likely the narrator is using very nice tires (were they tubular?) on his Colnago, and whatever cheap stock tires come on the Specialized. On a hill at 10 mph, rolling resistance isn't a huge factor, but it plays a part. Certainly it's more important than bearing friction! And the weight - well, for a (let's say) 80 kg rider with a 10 kg bike, adding another .3 kg is a 0.33% increase in weight, which is tiny - that represents an absolute upper bound on the time difference between them due to weight, which would be .2 seconds for every minute of riding uphill. More concerning is just doing a single test with each bike. You can't really draw any conclusions from that at all, even with a power meter. The meter doesn't give you human power output efficiency at low versus high cadence, tell you anything about how he was with regards to his lactic acid threshold with each pedal stroke, and we all know perceived output effort changes all the time. And this is assuming that the narrator was properly warmed up for both rides, with no significant fatigue difference from one to the next. No, the only way to better control for that is to have the rider make multiple accents. You might want to compare similar perceived efforts, but with such different gearing you would probably need to see a full circuit lap to discern differences in fatigue, lactic acid threshold riding, etc. as a result of hammering up the hill on the Colnago. By heart rate and by power would be interesting, but I don't know which would be better in this case.
@@tman5634 hardly. its not just the groupset, its the whole bike. If you want it to be just a groupset compare, you'd have to control for everything else. In reality, is more old bike vs new bike rather than just the groupset.
I think the biggest trickle down is the way Claris and Sora look compared to the previous models. Not to mention, the fact that you get the same range (more or less) on a Sora as you do in 105.
9 speed Sora is what Tiagra 4500 was (2009-2010). Ultegra was also 9 speed at that time (6500..6700). Later on, around 2014 they started to play dirty and made things none/hard-upgradeable. Buy entire set (shifters, derailleurs, chain and cassette+possibly rear hub) or stick with a lower grade. This year I'm about to build a new wheels (Dt-swiss based on 240 hubs) and see how they go, cause my old Ultegra wheels aren't that sharp any more.
l looked up Claris shifters and it was 220 CDN and less 85$ for SENSA ,MICRO SHIFT ,LTWOO soooo $$$ also l use an old long cage Ultegra rear derailer on 8spd cassette daily ride NOW IF YOU CAN FIND TIAGRA GROUPPO FOR $440 OR LESS GO FOR IT PS 105 $585 ONLINE TOO
I've still got my old 1997 Dura-ace 7700 levers and rear derailleur in my 2010 Tarmac S-Works. They're amazing and I've never ever felt the need to "up"grade them to anything else 🥰
After my DA 7800 gave out I switched to the 4700 Tiagra (10 speed) and immediately it was apparent that it was a major upgrade. I wanted to stay with 10 speed and this was my option.
@@10100110101 I use DA 9100 front and rear derailleurs with my 4700 shifters. ShImano and Sram cassettes. Minor limit screw adjustments make it all work. Most mech drive trains are backward compatible. The industry wants you to believe that group sets are not interchangeable. Mix and match to your hearts content.
I cycle 50 km a day on a Sora equipped bike 250 days a year. I think the Sora 3000 is great for everyday use, but of course it's incomparable with a 105 and up. When the Sora3000 is deformed, the replacement cost is also very affordable :)
In 2009 I bought a used bike equipped with 7700 DA. It was used by a professional Polsih cyctlist since 2002 (from the data I managed to collect) on his training bike. I used this groupset on three different framesets since then. I do not know how many km the previous owner did on his bike, but this DA went through a lot. From local races on road and CX courses to long trainings in harsh winter conditions on salted roads. It is still running perfectly. No service, no maintenance. I've never opened the lever mechanisms... According to my training notes I've driven about 50 000 km using my 7700. There are some scars, but there is no play while trying to put some force on the front and rear derraileur. The only problem I've got is that it is really dofficult to buy new bracket covers :D The only thing I always did was to put the gears on the smallest cog on the cassette and small chainring after each ride... Thats all :) None of the newer groupsets lasted that long with me...
Sora has got to win this one for me. I rode my first 3000 miles on my first drop bar bike on Sora, before upgrading. The gear range, the nice cable routing, Hallowtech BB and how bomb-proof and durable it is... This is a groupset that comes on gravel bikes in the $1,000 range, btw. The old Dura ace is pretty, but a relic of the past. the parts; not replaceable, and only takes smaller cassettes. Your colnago is now more like a museum piece that one is afraid to get a scratch on. The point isn't which is "better" they're both amazing, but nowadays no one gives and credit to just how really good Claris and Sora are and how AVAILABLE and affordable they are. The old 9 speed Dura ace, isn't. Not every rider needs a $12,000 sram red or Dura ace bike carbon bike.
I completely agree! Having multiple bikes with different groupsets, the new sora that I have on one of my bikes is fantastic! To be honest any recreational rider only needs a sora nothing more. 9speed has so much range of gearing you could easily turn it into a gravel ratio bike (which I have done before) If shimano could bring back 9speed triple chainrings at the front that would be the ultimate gravel bike ratio or the so called "all road bike" The only difference between sora and 105 11speed or 12speed is cadance. Some people can be picky on cadance. But for recreational riders...sora is all you need!
That's the thing with old Dura-Ace relics...you don't have to replace the parts. They last almost indefinitely with proper maintenance which just requires that you keep it clean and lubed. The benefits of no plastic or cost savings going into deciding how the part is built. Also, there's far less tuning needed for the relics. 90% of the time, you'd just have to replace the cables because a tuned vintage group stayed tune for many many miles. All my modern wonders require attention. Today, I'd only build bikes using 105 (even though I have a couple Dura-Ace bikes, 9100 & 7400). 105 is just the best groupset available in that it's not as finicky as Ultegra & Dura-Ace to keep in tune.
Somewhere on YT there is a video of a Yates brother/ Matt Stephens vid out for a ride and Simon/Adam are on old 9 speed Sora doing off-season miles and extolling it's virtues. Good enough for the pros, good enough for the rest of us. Race-Day bike is a different story!
... its* virtues (it's = it is). And one ride for publicity reasons cut into one short video does not say anything about how well it performs especially in the long run. Since current road bikes fully converted to discs, Sora's brake performance is nothing short of awful as it only works with mechanical brakes.
For me cycling at a rather older age, I find myself enjoying all the sensations and feel of the equipment. To me the silky smooth, precise and always reliable dura ace is my choice
Two very important things for me: number one touch points. I have ridden both shift levers back to back many times. The older dura ace levers are abysmal compared to the newer levers. I ride on the hoods a lot. I would choose the newer levers every time. Number two, gear ratios. Since both high end gear ratios are nearly the same that is not an issue. However, a low gear, such that I can spin it up hills is now my preference. Use the heart and lungs, save the legs! On long climbs I can to try to keep my cadence about 80 RPMs. 30 years ago that wasn’t a thing. We pushed. Watch a video of Greg LeMond and Bernard Hinault climbing together, you’ll see what I mean. When we first watched Miguel Indurain climbing we thought what is he doing spinning that fast? It was at that moment we realized that On long climbs method was more efficient and faster. Jim Ocowiczs statement that Low is slow went out the window.
There’s an answer to the gear ratio difference in the shape of the Dura-Ace triple groupset. And even with the extra chainring and longer mechs it’s still lighter than Sora. But weights not everything, in fact it matters not a jot to me. I’d sooner put looks as a priority and in that respect it’s difficult to compare DA and Sora. Any single bike is going to look better with one or the other.
It would help to have both bikes on the same tires/tubes. The colnago is on Michelin Pro3 which have a much lower rolling resistance compared to the specialized road sport tires. Any speed/time difference could simply be the tires/tubes.
I applaud your commitment on the braking tests. I don't like the look of cables coming out of the sides of the hoods, so sadly DA loses. And the winner is 105 5800 / r7000.
External gear cables don’t look the cleanest but I’m sure it helps with the lightweight, frictionless shift feel when there are fewer tight corners for the cables to go around.
Campag Super Record circa 1980 was my favourite groupset of all time. Back in my bachelor days, I had enough spare money to be able to afford it! I’m happy to make do with 11 speed 105 Shimano these days.
I am actually in the process of replacing some of my Claris 2400 Groupset to semi Sora R3000. Both are triple crank. I originally had the Claris 2400 shifters but after a major accident, they got replaced with the R2000 shifters. God, I love the internal routing now! Still keeping the Claris R2000 shifters and rear 2400 rear derail. I already replaced the ocotlink bb with the BBR60 for the Sora R3030 crankset 175mm. Tested with the old Claris 2400 front derail and it got stuck at the big crank/50T. I had estimated that the shifting will be different and was right to be on standby with the the Sora R3030 front derail. Routed new shifter cable in but unfortunately, I broke the quicklink on my chain and awaiting a new chain before I can test the shifting properly. I do note that the Front derail seems a bit punchy on when downshifting(?) to the small crank/30T. Hoping to finish by mid-January 2024.
Love the 7700 groupset and actually have it on my winter bike-i even got my hands on some of the parts from Shimano’s 25th anniversary set like seatpost,cranks and bottom bracket-they have titanium parts and are polished. The STI work flawlessly for more than 2 decades now! Although i must admit i hit the deck very hard when my right and hollow crank broke in a sprint....😱
Great timing! I just replaced my 2004 Ultegra 9 speed rear for a new Sora 9 speed long cage so that i can move from a 12-25 to a 12-32. I have no regrets. Shifts are smooth and the gears are truly well worth it.
The test comparisons are completely unscientific, and can only be viewed as a comprison between the two complete bikes, which says nothing about the groupset. Why is this? There is so much confounding with other components playing a part. Different wheels, frames and (especially) tyres all play such a role that the comparison of the groupsets is pretty much void. The comment about the brakes offering the same braking as disks also completely misses the point. Decent rim brakes, well set up, can pretty much mach the braking performance of hydraulic disks in the dry. That's fine. But in the wet, the braking performance is massively different with much longer stopping distances for rim brakes, and far higher pull required. Personally, if offered the choice between Dura-Ace 7700 and Sora 3300, I'd take the 7700 every time, mainly as it's subjectively a nicer thing. But given the choice between Dura-Ace 7700 and current 105, it's be the 105 which won out.
Interesting comparison. I did my own (albeit less scientific) comparisons between R7000, Ultegra 6500 and DA 7400 between my bikes at the time. 7400 1st gen sti is a masterpiece. P.S. regardless of Lances actions, his wins absolutely stand IMO. It’s not as if he was the only doper or even in a minority. It was endemic within the sport when he was at Motorola, never mind USPS.
I started out with Sora/Tiagra on my first bike. It was great until it wasn't. As my abilities grew and I put more demand on it, I realized I needed something better. I went to full Dura-Ace 7800 and the change was night & day. Today, I have Dura-Ace 9100, 105, Acera, GRX and on my vintage Tommasini Super Prestige, Dura-Ace 7400. I bought it as a project bike to work on. The drivetrain was rusted shut. Last week, I began working on it and readying myself to remove the drivetrain to replace it with something else and as I broke it free with some WD40 followed up by some citrus degreaser, something wonderful happened...the groupset came alive. I kept brushing it and spraying it and in no time, this 3 decades old Dura-Ace 7400 (FULL 7400 from the brakes to the crankset to the headset to the hubs) began to shift perfectly, precisely, quietly and smoother than anything else I had in my stable. It was the most accurately operating groupset on any of my bikes. Sure, the latest 105 is eons above anything in that era in matters of ergonomics and feel, but I still contend that Shimano's 7800 groupset was their best by far. It was the best mechanically, it was the last groupset to be all metal construction and aesthetically, it belongs in The Louvre as it's bits are for all intents and purposes jewelry for bicycles. They are works of art. The shifters are feminine, the derailleurs are masculine and the pedals are like The Terminator in liquid form. Today's groupsets are great, but nothing feels as nice as the all metal groupsets of yesteryear and nothing feels as gratifying as riding a bike that doesn't have a finicky, temperamental drivetrain that gets out of wack too easily. Old groups are like timepieces. They last forever if properly maintained. Moving forward, all my bike builds will be with 105 from now on. It's near Dura-Ace performance at 1/3 the price and that's hard to argue with. Plus, it lasts a lot longer. All my bikes are spec'd with Ultegra cassettes because it offers the best combination of smoothness, engagement & durability in my opinion. Great comparison by the way. Very thorough and well thought out. And regarding the Praxis crankset, Praxis chainrings are better than anything Shimano produces. I have them on all my bikes.
My bike originally came with 7700. Over the years I've gone down the tiers and I now have 5800 on it. It's gone from standard crank with 11-23 to now having semi compact with 11-32. All this via a 6700 semi compact with 11-25. I think, day to day, the 5800 is the better groupset. But the 7700 was/is beautiful to look at.
Old Suntour derailleurs allow a wider range of gears (larger freewheels & smaller chainrings) for us old guys to limp up hills (most riders of these ancient bikes). Most of my vintage bikes are equipped w/a mish-mash of Suntour deraileurs, Dia-Compe brakes & SR, Sakai or Sugino cranks, which most entry level road & touring bikes were equipped with in the 70s & 80s.
I tuned by Sora 3000 group set to a T and it shifts like butter. No issues and silky smooth reliable shifting.I did upgrade the jockey wheels to Tripeak sealed bearings and it’s even better now. The stock ones don’t have bearings.
DA 7700 is the smoothest shifting setup I've ever used. I finally had to retire my set last spring after the rear shifter stopped downshifting. Yes, I cleaned and lubed it in the hopes that I could revive it but it was just too worn. Well, 20+ years of use is plenty so I'm still impressed.
My first ever racing bike - a Peugot with 531 tubing came with 105...and it was a fab groupset, that was back in 1992, now I run the latest version of 105 and it's still a brilliant groupset, I don't think anyone needs anything better unless they are pro. In between I used tiagra and sora groupsets and they both ran fine but did not have that 'feel' and solidness of 105 and above.
Job very well done Gentleman. Both of as share same love old school road bikes. Dure Ace old type are much better fan of rims brakes and so I think Disc brakes are just to make more profit for Companies as well Service staff. Greetings from Korea by Bosnian man
Excellent Review. I have both Dura-Ace and Ultrega on bikes from the same time period. Have never had an issue with them. That said, if I was to get a new bike I would have no problem with Sora. As we get a little older that 12/25 starts to look smaller and smaller.
I went from Tiagra 4600 to Ultegra 6700 and feel pretty good about it. I do wonder if modern Tiagra is just as good though... maybe that's your next groupset to compare with?
The fact for almost everything is the wear. When you spin the wheels you slowly polish the bearing track , as you pedal you slowly polish the bottom bracket surface, as you squeeze the brakes or change the gears you slowly polish every contact part... generally they refer this to campagnolo groupsets saying it starts rough but then it gets better but it happens for every mechanical thing . Give the sora 25 years of continued usage and then make the comparison again. The difference will be much smaller
Given the choice, I’d go with NOS Dura-Ace every time. The shifter throw is more positive. The fasteners, pivots, springs, etc are all stainless or titanium so that they will not rust. Just start stocking up on NOS brake hoods, because Shimano no longer makes them.
Nice video. Love the commitment in the road test. You mention different tyres. Maybe that is the big factor in your time difference ?? Another possibility is the CroMo frame on the Colnago. Good old fashion Chrome Moly is famous for giving a smooth ride ( vibration damping). Maybe that was the big factor in the time difference ?? Cheers
7800 was a smoother shifting better braking Dura-Ace groupset than 7700. My first top end bike was a Colnago C40 (non B Stay) with 7700 Dura Ace- I thought I was Big Time 😂 I eventually put 7800 on it. I own a bike shop and service all drivetrains in a given month. I love the silver look of the older drivetrains, l love the wider chains, the precise and distinctive shifting. But the STI’s and braking have definitely improved since 7700. The thread in BB Hollowtech system last forever and makes removing and reinstalling a Crankset a breeze. I own several bikes with R9100 mech 11 speed groupsets IMHO it is really the pinnacle of Dura-Ace groupsets or any mechanical groupset for that matter.
Two of my bikes (2006 S-Works Tarmac, 2005 LeMond Tete de Course) have DA 7700 (although as a creaky old person I have gone with compact cranksets) and I still think the components are wonderful. They look great and shifting and braking is still top-notch after all these years and kilometers. Alloy parts are lovely and while I understand the trend I am a bit disappointed that component makers like Shimano and Campagnolo have gone to the black/carbon look. I sincerely hope that that Colnago was no scratched in the test!
Just a small scuff on the RH lever hood and tiny chip on the rear mech. It’s sad but it’s for riding as well as gazing lovingly at 😍 Less importantly, I was fine too 😂
I was really interested in this Video because I too have one of these 9 speed Dura ace group sets which I bought on my new Trek around 2003. Unfortunately the 10 speed came around a year later and of course I had to upgrade right away. But the Dura Ace 9 speed lives on what was once my rain bike, an old Specialized S works aluminum frame that I built up from scratch one winter. That bike lived on my trainer for years and years when I lived in the Chicago area. Just got back into riding after a 11 year Hiatus from road biking. Of course now I’m that Retro Grouch that is riding a 2007 Trek Madone with 10 speed sram Force with 2010 Zipp 404 Clinchers. With kits that are from the same era. Oh and I’m competitive in the Town line sprints again with guys that are riding the newest tech. Both my 9 and 10 speed Dura ace Group sets shift and perform like silk.
I've still got my 7700 group set stashed away, there are times when I think i should sell it, then get the 53/39 chainset out and rear mech and I think beauty cant be sold! I truly wish Shimano would make a chainset that looks a million dollars, without octolink bb as I think their modern cranksets look weighty and not aesthetically pleasing! But I guess looks dont win prizes!!! 😁😁😁
But what if you did a full upgrade on the stock sora cable inners and outers on with Ultegra/Dura-Ace level ones? For a good period of time. shifting should be pretty slick until the cable coatings wear off. Even if you use the standard opti-slic 105 set it should be better than the stock sora outers i would assume?? **Edited to add more context and make for easier reading**
That's why I won't build my bikes with Dura-Ace anymore. Too high maintenance. They'll all be built up with 105. In the end, it's hard to tell the difference anyway once you're underway with a 105 bike.
Great video, but the Sora front deraileur had been installed wrongly, the cable should be routed above the little pin than to the bolt, this will affect your shifting feeling.
Fully agreed - not only the group set is stylish but also the frame I am overweight I am using a Sora derailleur on a 9 speed Ultegra set with a new crankset 34 -50 and 11-32 cassette (11, 13 are never used and 15 only rarely) but if you are in good shape 12 to 25 is good and as said stylish
What I see on both is a bunch of screws and rivets working the same way on a rather similar articulated designed pieces. The only difference on the Dura-Ace is more metal pressing in order to give it a shine look. The functionality is the same and that's why the kits are interchangeable.
Change the your DA STI position on that Colnago, to me it looks wrong. I am still riding 9 speeds on bikes from around year 2000, the only problem is that grease might dry on the STIs after many years.
i am still using my shimano 105 1055 shit levers that i bought a few days ago for pennies still going strong, the rear derailleur is the same 105, the front derailleur is a sora from early versions, all of them are still going strong and for sure i ain't gonna replace any time soon
I'm an oldish (54) man who likes new things. The groupsets from the past look dated to me, and I lust after the latest ones in general. I prefer the styling of Ultegra cranks over Dura-Ace though
I lean the other way. I’m slightly older, but I prefer the classics. I have a ‘92 Trek 2300 with Tri-color 600 - precursor to Dura-Ace, I believe - and it’s my go-to bike on the Travel-Trak trainer. I have newer bikes, and different component sets, but the 2300 is a favorite.
Nice video. Sorry for your fall. I hope you didn't destroy the rear derailler. Shimano is my only choice for many years. I was astonished when I got the DA 9000 11s mechanical groupset. The best. Especially when compared to the 10speed junk ultegra was. Of course today's 11speed Ultegra is wonderful (105 still sucks) for an everyday bike.
WELL since l own an old 105 of the same vintage on my 84 myata with just an 8spd but 12-32 gears with 44/30 up front for climbing duties and 2nd gen ultegra 9spd on my Lance TREK team bike and have tried my friends old Durace 10spd on his old TREK 5500 l can SAY YES THAT DURACE DOES SHIFT GREAT and hoods feel better too !! SOOOOO l guess it comes to ride feel ,l d like to try newer SORA levers for better fit of my large hands . YES SIZE MATTERS WHEN it comes to brifters but all the other bits work great still !! ALSO since ye old 105 shifter sticking l m going to try micro shift brifters for my 8spd and possible LTWOO R5 s for my 9spd l like the design better than SENSA ONES .
For the power difference while climbing, I have to believe it's the tire quality and rolling resistance increase that is the dominant factor. If those hubs have cup and cone bearings, chances are they're severely over preloaded, as is so so common out of the box.
I have different bikes and I'd prefer getting a used 7700 over a new sora - any day... but on the other hand I love to build up bikes myself and build a relationship while doing so...
I did much the same on my 1990 MASI. Its had Ultegra 9 speed on it for many years, octalink or what ever they call it. Shifters finally started rattling too much. I put on the newest at the time SORA 9 speed brifters, 2020 I think? They work like a champ, I think they shift better than the Ultegra ever did. Even though they are SORA, they still cost over 200.00 US.
Interesting video, I just built a "budget" bike and went with Sora for it's affordability, but I did buy a Dura Ace 7700 rear derailleur. It's a thing of beauty, and I suspect the rear derailleur has a great impact on the shift quality.
I run Sora on my "cheap" bike and I run a XT or XTR cassettes to get light weight @ ultegra weight. What a the Dura-ace cables and housings? are they coated with something to reduce frictions?
i have what i believe is the previous iteration of sora. it still has the old-timey cable routing on the brifters. other than that, it does not look slick, and the shifting does feel quite agricultural to be honest, compared to a modern tiagra set even. but it is easy to set up, brakes like a charm, and it just works. got the groupset used but in great condition, including integrated crankset for the cost of a set of new tires. can't beat the value to price ratio
My Allez came with Claris 8 speed, which I completely changed to be full Claris (brakes, crank, etc). I run the stock compact double with a 11-34 8 speed cassette, and it tackles every mountain I’ve thrown it at. Sure Ultegra or 105 is my goal but Claris has been good enough for 5k miles and 200,000ft+ of elevation gain so far. And both derailleurs have been replaced, both very cheap to repair.
I always recommend Sora for people who are considering getting into cycling but don’t know if they will like it. Of course it is theoretically cheaper to buy a used bike, a new entry level bike and a bike fit will almost always be better. Weight shouldn’t matter - if your BMI isn’t 19-20, then you shouldn’t be thinking of weight on your bike anyway.
That Dura Ace and its Ultegra compatriot is bomb proof and provides excellent mechanical performance. The real issue is that the Dura Ace is now considered “vintage” and good examples are getting more and more expensive for NOS.
There is no way Sora can match that classic Dura ace Groupset its the best quality they ever made & still even 10 speed is so smooth to shift & the braking is almost as good as Disc brakes.I have that 10 speed dura ace groupset on my 1992 Cliff Shrubb 531 frame its all Quality kit.
I have two bikes with 7700, so I can say for sure that 7700 shifts better than any other older Dura Ace group, but not as well as 7800, or newer Dura Ace groups. As for gearing, there were many cassette options, ranging from the "manly" 11-21, 11-23, 12-21, 12-23, 12-25, and even a 12-27. The 7700 rear hub, with its titanium cassette body is a work of art. I noticed that you didn't mention the dreaded non-sealed BB7700, with its tiny ball and roller bearings. Most riders replaced it with the sealed bearing Ultegra version of the bottom bracket. I still have the BB7700 bottom bracket on my TT bike. I protected it by running a bead of fresh grease around the spindle before every TT.
This iteration of Shimano Sora (R3000) was launched in 2016 and there have been two previous versions - another 9 speed and a 8 speed version. I don't know why Mr. Smythe called Sora "brand new" and questioned "how long it's going to last". I own bikes with R3000 Sora, R7000 105 the old Ultegra 6500 from the early 2000s. The shifting on the Sora is superior to Ultegra 6500 and only a step behind current 105 mechanical shifting. You can't go wrong with Sora - period. It's durable, works great, has a massive range, 9-speed cassettes and chains are inexpensive and it's half the price of 105.
Sora is the real and true people's budget groupset and a groupset that honestly really don't need anymore upgrading to 105 as a weekend or fitness recreational rider. We all get hung up on latest tech and 12speed advertisements but until you actually ride and compare the actual differences it's marginal. Shimano should bring back the 9speed triple chainrings up front back...or let's make it even better the 10speed triple chainring back. Put that on the so-called "all road" bike and we have a true quiver killer in road and gravel! Make it electronic for smooth shifting if you feel that the front mech is faulty to perfect it. That's what people need for an "all road" bike. 12 speed...non racers don't need that.
My first serious new road bike was a Raleigh R100 with 8 speed Sora triple, bought in 2001. Not light weight by any means but a lovely ride and the 8X3 indexed shifting was amazing, being used to 52/42 and 5 speed friction shifting. Unhappily the bike was stolen from my garage and its insurance replacement was 2X8 Sora, which in those days was a 53/39 beast. The lack of cadence options was not nice and nor was the lack of lower gears. I eventually went down the road of compact chain sets and upgrades to 9 then 10 speed. Only with the introduction of 10 speed cassettes did I see any real equality of ease of use, gear range and closeness of ratio between that of the old 8X3 system. Triples are great and there is a good reason they are still specced on touring bikes. It's a shame they are not offered in even medium range group sets these days.
I haven't owned enough bikes / group sets over the years to have a favorite, but I'm riding Shimano 105 5800 (circa 2017) now and 105 has many times been described as the "sweet spot" between price and performance. In college around 1990 I knew a racer who raced on 105 just so he could swap out or replace parts as needed cheaply. My fear is that 105 will become only available in an electronic flavor. I really don't want to pay for that, or to have to charge shifter batteries before a ride. I prefer cables.
Nací después que el grupo 7700, y aún así siento que es objetivamente más bonito. Aun asi, proporcionalmente hablando, creo que Sora mejoró muchísimo la goma media de los grupos. Nos entregó una experiencia semiprofesional a aquellos que solo somos simples amantes de las bicicletas.
Difference is probably down to the tyres . Should have used the same tyres on both bikes. Try using gear hanger extension on the Dura Ace and then you could use the same wide ratio cassette as the sora?
Sora r3000 groupset is well, functional. The dura ace 7700 groupset is functionally the same, but the difference in material quality is night and day- this is especially true when it comes to weight. R3000 cranks are ungodly heavy, even when factoring in bottom bracket weight. 7700 series DA cranks+BB rival 105 r7000 in weight. And addressing affordability- you can score old dura ace from the used market pretty cheap.
For me Sora (and the rest of modern groupsets) are better becouse of the hood shape. I like to ride in the hoods and they are just more ergonomic, so they're more comfortable for me.
I'd take modern Sora over old dura ace anyday but i think if you can just scrape a tiny bit more together go for 10 speed 4700 tiagra it's bloody brilliant tbh.
Funny enough I had a 2018 Allez sport that I swapped the RD on with a dura ace 7700 and the axis brake calipers with ultegra ones of the same generation. Also swapped the FD with a modern 105 one and Campy zonda c17 wheel set. The bike was great, light, and fast. I’m glad to have my 2022 tarmac sl6 sport but I do appreciate how capable the Allez was.
Well, first off, the timing of your comparison test is uncanny. I have the Dura Ace 7700 on an old Motobecane and two DA 7800 drive trains on a TREK Madone and an Elite Tri bike. I love all three. I have been thinking about transferring at least one of the 7800's to a new frame when the time comes. As well, I have a Canyon equipped with a DA 9000 Di2 drive train and love it too. I must say however, the 7800 drive trains are solid, reliable and still exceptional. They perform as well or better than you describe. I just installed a 7800 narrow gauge 10-speed DA chain on the TREK along with DA 34 carbon wheels with the aluminum brake surface. That has made a noticeable difference. Even though it only has 10-speeds (12/30 cassette), it performs better than when it was new. The only thing I am concerned about is the longevity of the 2005 TREK OCLV frame. I have taken care of it but can't get a definitive read on how long it will last? Any thoughts on an acceptable replacement frame when the time comes? I plan on keeping and transferring the 7700 and 7800 drive trains. (I am happy to send pictures if you like.) Larry C.
Sora components reduce the number of parts and use cheaper materials. Fore example the chain guide/rollers on the derailleur might be plastic with metal bushings on the nicer set but all-plastic on the Sora. The one I noticed in particular is that the nicer calipers have hardened steel inserts where the adjustment set screw pivots against. It makes a big difference in the feel in your handlebars through the range of motion. Much more crisp.
Well, the problem is not in the Dura Ace hoods but horrible bar shape. Almost all pre-compact era bars are a pain to ride, sloped forward. A compact bar is a game changer even for the classic bike.
Agreed. Riding in the drops was the default racing position even in the 1990s and less attention was paid to hoods. A more modern bar would improve it.
Love Dura Ace, just can't justify spending that much. Dura Ace will outlast, but Sora is the bang for the buck champion. Since I started serious cycling to save money on commuting, Sora wins. Cycling used to be a poor man's friend, but the industry wants to sell us on the fantasy of expensive tastes. The worse inflation gets, the more Sora wins.
Somewhat interesting comparison but the difference in timing probably comes mostly from the different rolling resistance of the tires and not from the group set.
On that small of an effort? And btw wouldn't the RR be better with wider tyres on that state of asphalt?
How about a retest with same wheel setup on both bikes?
@@MacMasoreIt entirely depends on the suppleness/rolling resistance of the specific tires in use at the pressures they were being used at. If the pressures were equal, the wider tires would have higher casing tension, so they very well may have had more rolling resistance. I didn't see what tires were being used, but it's likely the narrator is using very nice tires (were they tubular?) on his Colnago, and whatever cheap stock tires come on the Specialized.
On a hill at 10 mph, rolling resistance isn't a huge factor, but it plays a part. Certainly it's more important than bearing friction! And the weight - well, for a (let's say) 80 kg rider with a 10 kg bike, adding another .3 kg is a 0.33% increase in weight, which is tiny - that represents an absolute upper bound on the time difference between them due to weight, which would be .2 seconds for every minute of riding uphill.
More concerning is just doing a single test with each bike. You can't really draw any conclusions from that at all, even with a power meter. The meter doesn't give you human power output efficiency at low versus high cadence, tell you anything about how he was with regards to his lactic acid threshold with each pedal stroke, and we all know perceived output effort changes all the time. And this is assuming that the narrator was properly warmed up for both rides, with no significant fatigue difference from one to the next.
No, the only way to better control for that is to have the rider make multiple accents. You might want to compare similar perceived efforts, but with such different gearing you would probably need to see a full circuit lap to discern differences in fatigue, lactic acid threshold riding, etc. as a result of hammering up the hill on the Colnago. By heart rate and by power would be interesting, but I don't know which would be better in this case.
The whole test is flawed without using the same wheels/tires
@@tman5634 hardly. its not just the groupset, its the whole bike. If you want it to be just a groupset compare, you'd have to control for everything else. In reality, is more old bike vs new bike rather than just the groupset.
Should have used the same wheels and tyres for both tests
Exactly...the test was flawed
I think the biggest trickle down is the way Claris and Sora look compared to the previous models. Not to mention, the fact that you get the same range (more or less) on a Sora as you do in 105.
9 speed Sora is what Tiagra 4500 was (2009-2010). Ultegra was also 9 speed at that time (6500..6700). Later on, around 2014 they started to play dirty and made things none/hard-upgradeable. Buy entire set (shifters, derailleurs, chain and cassette+possibly rear hub) or stick with a lower grade.
This year I'm about to build a new wheels (Dt-swiss based on 240 hubs) and see how they go, cause my old Ultegra wheels aren't that sharp any more.
Claris is phenomenal for what it costs
@@askmeaboutmattweiner As long as you're not going to chase the numbers, then sure it is! Enjoy it!
@@askmeaboutmattweiner Claris shifters cost about as much as Sensah Empire, which is way too much to be honest.
l looked up Claris shifters and it was 220 CDN and less 85$ for SENSA ,MICRO SHIFT ,LTWOO soooo $$$ also l use an old long cage Ultegra rear derailer on 8spd cassette daily ride NOW IF YOU CAN FIND TIAGRA GROUPPO FOR $440 OR LESS GO FOR IT PS 105 $585 ONLINE TOO
I've still got my old 1997 Dura-ace 7700 levers and rear derailleur in my 2010 Tarmac S-Works. They're amazing and I've never ever felt the need to "up"grade them to anything else 🥰
After my DA 7800 gave out I switched to the 4700 Tiagra (10 speed) and immediately it was apparent that it was a major upgrade. I wanted to stay with 10 speed and this was my option.
The only thing that sucks about 4700 is that the components are only compatible with other 4700 components
@@10100110101 GRX 400 10 speed and the road 11 speed components are compatible as well
@@10100110101 I use DA 9100 front and rear derailleurs with my 4700 shifters. ShImano and Sram cassettes. Minor limit screw adjustments make it all work. Most mech drive trains are backward compatible. The industry wants you to believe that group sets are not interchangeable. Mix and match to your hearts content.
@@jeffreyclark8227 oh sweet ! Cheers
@@jeffreyclark8227 my friend's father is running DA 9100 with 4700 shifters as well, on a Litespeed frame
Seems to work for him
I cycle 50 km a day on a Sora equipped bike 250 days a year. I think the Sora 3000 is great for everyday use, but of course it's incomparable with a 105 and up. When the Sora3000 is deformed, the replacement cost is also very affordable :)
That’s nothing. I cycle 500km a day 385 days a year on fixie
i agree, my old sora 2x7(at least 12 years) worked totaly ok and a new cassette and chain is under 30€.
"I cycle 50 km a day" ... If you're doing it only for own pleasure and you have time for it, then I'm jealous.
@@devs1980 bruh shutup lmfao
@@devs1980 I rode round the world on a tricycle, twice, against the wind, dragging lead weights.
In 2009 I bought a used bike equipped with 7700 DA. It was used by a professional Polsih cyctlist since 2002 (from the data I managed to collect) on his training bike. I used this groupset on three different framesets since then. I do not know how many km the previous owner did on his bike, but this DA went through a lot. From local races on road and CX courses to long trainings in harsh winter conditions on salted roads. It is still running perfectly. No service, no maintenance. I've never opened the lever mechanisms... According to my training notes I've driven about 50 000 km using my 7700. There are some scars, but there is no play while trying to put some force on the front and rear derraileur. The only problem I've got is that it is really dofficult to buy new bracket covers :D
The only thing I always did was to put the gears on the smallest cog on the cassette and small chainring after each ride... Thats all :)
None of the newer groupsets lasted that long with me...
Sora has got to win this one for me. I rode my first 3000 miles on my first drop bar bike on Sora, before upgrading. The gear range, the nice cable routing, Hallowtech BB and how bomb-proof and durable it is... This is a groupset that comes on gravel bikes in the $1,000 range, btw.
The old Dura ace is pretty, but a relic of the past. the parts; not replaceable, and only takes smaller cassettes. Your colnago is now more like a museum piece that one is afraid to get a scratch on.
The point isn't which is "better" they're both amazing, but nowadays no one gives and credit to just how really good Claris and Sora are and how AVAILABLE and affordable they are. The old 9 speed Dura ace, isn't.
Not every rider needs a $12,000 sram red or Dura ace bike carbon bike.
I completely agree! Having multiple bikes with different groupsets, the new sora that I have on one of my bikes is fantastic! To be honest any recreational rider only needs a sora nothing more. 9speed has so much range of gearing you could easily turn it into a gravel ratio bike (which I have done before)
If shimano could bring back 9speed triple chainrings at the front that would be the ultimate gravel bike ratio or the so called "all road bike"
The only difference between sora and 105 11speed or 12speed is cadance. Some people can be picky on cadance. But for recreational riders...sora is all you need!
That's the thing with old Dura-Ace relics...you don't have to replace the parts. They last almost indefinitely with proper maintenance which just requires that you keep it clean and lubed. The benefits of no plastic or cost savings going into deciding how the part is built. Also, there's far less tuning needed for the relics. 90% of the time, you'd just have to replace the cables because a tuned vintage group stayed tune for many many miles.
All my modern wonders require attention.
Today, I'd only build bikes using 105 (even though I have a couple Dura-Ace bikes, 9100 & 7400). 105 is just the best groupset available in that it's not as finicky as Ultegra & Dura-Ace to keep in tune.
@@solitaryrefinement6787 There are guys using Di2 since 2010, with no adjustment, no cable changing, just ride it. Doesnt seem right does it?
@brad sanders Well, dentists and lawyers barely ride their bikes enough to wear them out! 🤣
@@solitaryrefinement6787 savage hahaha
Somewhere on YT there is a video of a Yates brother/ Matt Stephens vid out for a ride and Simon/Adam are on old 9 speed Sora doing off-season miles and extolling it's virtues. Good enough for the pros, good enough for the rest of us. Race-Day bike is a different story!
... its* virtues (it's = it is). And one ride for publicity reasons cut into one short video does not say anything about how well it performs especially in the long run. Since current road bikes fully converted to discs, Sora's brake performance is nothing short of awful as it only works with mechanical brakes.
@@einundsiebenziger5488 Sora brake performance is just fine, as you can see in this video. The marketing is strong with you, young padawan.
For me cycling at a rather older age, I find myself enjoying all the sensations and feel of the equipment. To me the silky smooth, precise and always reliable dura ace is my choice
Vintage Dura-Ace is made of Mithril.
Two very important things for me: number one touch points. I have ridden both shift levers back to back many times. The older dura ace levers are abysmal compared to the newer levers. I ride on the hoods a lot. I would choose the newer levers every time. Number two, gear ratios. Since both high end gear ratios are nearly the same that is not an issue. However, a low gear, such that I can spin it up hills is now my preference. Use the heart and lungs, save the legs! On long climbs I can to try to keep my cadence about 80 RPMs. 30 years ago that wasn’t a thing. We pushed. Watch a video of Greg LeMond and Bernard Hinault climbing together, you’ll see what I mean. When we first watched Miguel Indurain climbing we thought what is he doing spinning that fast? It was at that moment we realized that On long climbs method was more efficient and faster. Jim Ocowiczs statement that Low is slow went out the window.
There’s an answer to the gear ratio difference in the shape of the Dura-Ace triple groupset. And even with the extra chainring and longer mechs it’s still lighter than Sora. But weights not everything, in fact it matters not a jot to me. I’d sooner put looks as a priority and in that respect it’s difficult to compare DA and Sora. Any single bike is going to look better with one or the other.
It would help to have both bikes on the same tires/tubes. The colnago is on Michelin Pro3 which have a much lower rolling resistance compared to the specialized road sport tires. Any speed/time difference could simply be the tires/tubes.
Agreed!! There may be about 10W differences between these two tire sets.
I applaud your commitment on the braking tests.
I don't like the look of cables coming out of the sides of the hoods, so sadly DA loses. And the winner is 105 5800 / r7000.
Yeah i do not like the cables out the hoods look much prefer the hidden look
External gear cables don’t look the cleanest but I’m sure it helps with the lightweight, frictionless shift feel when there are fewer tight corners for the cables to go around.
Dura Ace is always elegant to behold
Campag Super Record circa 1980 was my favourite groupset of all time. Back in my bachelor days, I had enough spare money to be able to afford it! I’m happy to make do with 11 speed 105 Shimano these days.
Had DA7800 on a 2006 felt f2, never missed a beat and was still running well in 2020 when i sold it,
I am actually in the process of replacing some of my Claris 2400 Groupset to semi Sora R3000. Both are triple crank. I originally had the Claris 2400 shifters but after a major accident, they got replaced with the R2000 shifters. God, I love the internal routing now! Still keeping the Claris R2000 shifters and rear 2400 rear derail. I already replaced the ocotlink bb with the BBR60 for the Sora R3030 crankset 175mm. Tested with the old Claris 2400 front derail and it got stuck at the big crank/50T. I had estimated that the shifting will be different and was right to be on standby with the the Sora R3030 front derail. Routed new shifter cable in but unfortunately, I broke the quicklink on my chain and awaiting a new chain before I can test the shifting properly. I do note that the Front derail seems a bit punchy on when downshifting(?) to the small crank/30T. Hoping to finish by mid-January 2024.
Love the 7700 groupset and actually have it on my winter bike-i even got my hands on some of the parts from Shimano’s 25th anniversary set like seatpost,cranks and bottom bracket-they have titanium parts and are polished.
The STI work flawlessly for more than 2 decades now!
Although i must admit i hit the deck very hard when my right and hollow crank broke in a sprint....😱
Oh no… I didn’t really want to hear that last bit 😂
Hi, That Comnago is simply beautiful, interesting testing.
Great timing! I just replaced my 2004 Ultegra 9 speed rear for a new Sora 9 speed long cage so that i can move from a 12-25 to a 12-32. I have no regrets. Shifts are smooth and the gears are truly well worth it.
I have Sora on my winter bike. Saves a fortune on chains and cassettes. A worn in Sora has a butter smooth change. A 11-34 cassette also works.
Honestly u can really feel the Dura Ace quality, especially in the long term. Also Love to service my Dura Ace...
The test comparisons are completely unscientific, and can only be viewed as a comprison between the two complete bikes, which says nothing about the groupset. Why is this? There is so much confounding with other components playing a part. Different wheels, frames and (especially) tyres all play such a role that the comparison of the groupsets is pretty much void.
The comment about the brakes offering the same braking as disks also completely misses the point. Decent rim brakes, well set up, can pretty much mach the braking performance of hydraulic disks in the dry. That's fine. But in the wet, the braking performance is massively different with much longer stopping distances for rim brakes, and far higher pull required.
Personally, if offered the choice between Dura-Ace 7700 and Sora 3300, I'd take the 7700 every time, mainly as it's subjectively a nicer thing. But given the choice between Dura-Ace 7700 and current 105, it's be the 105 which won out.
Interesting comparison. I did my own (albeit less scientific) comparisons between R7000, Ultegra 6500 and DA 7400 between my bikes at the time.
7400 1st gen sti is a masterpiece.
P.S. regardless of Lances actions, his wins absolutely stand IMO. It’s not as if he was the only doper or even in a minority. It was endemic within the sport when he was at Motorola, never mind USPS.
What an amazing video you have come up with. Thanks❤️😍
Thank you - glad you enjoyed it 👍
I started out with Sora/Tiagra on my first bike. It was great until it wasn't. As my abilities grew and I put more demand on it, I realized I needed something better. I went to full Dura-Ace 7800 and the change was night & day. Today, I have Dura-Ace 9100, 105, Acera, GRX and on my vintage Tommasini Super Prestige, Dura-Ace 7400. I bought it as a project bike to work on. The drivetrain was rusted shut. Last week, I began working on it and readying myself to remove the drivetrain to replace it with something else and as I broke it free with some WD40 followed up by some citrus degreaser, something wonderful happened...the groupset came alive.
I kept brushing it and spraying it and in no time, this 3 decades old Dura-Ace 7400 (FULL 7400 from the brakes to the crankset to the headset to the hubs) began to shift perfectly, precisely, quietly and smoother than anything else I had in my stable. It was the most accurately operating groupset on any of my bikes.
Sure, the latest 105 is eons above anything in that era in matters of ergonomics and feel, but I still contend that Shimano's 7800 groupset was their best by far. It was the best mechanically, it was the last groupset to be all metal construction and aesthetically, it belongs in The Louvre as it's bits are for all intents and purposes jewelry for bicycles. They are works of art. The shifters are feminine, the derailleurs are masculine and the pedals are like The Terminator in liquid form.
Today's groupsets are great, but nothing feels as nice as the all metal groupsets of yesteryear and nothing feels as gratifying as riding a bike that doesn't have a finicky, temperamental drivetrain that gets out of wack too easily. Old groups are like timepieces. They last forever if properly maintained.
Moving forward, all my bike builds will be with 105 from now on. It's near Dura-Ace performance at 1/3 the price and that's hard to argue with. Plus, it lasts a lot longer. All my bikes are spec'd with Ultegra cassettes because it offers the best combination of smoothness, engagement & durability in my opinion.
Great comparison by the way. Very thorough and well thought out.
And regarding the Praxis crankset, Praxis chainrings are better than anything Shimano produces. I have them on all my bikes.
Agreed, the DA7800 gruppo was peak DA.
My bike originally came with 7700. Over the years I've gone down the tiers and I now have 5800 on it. It's gone from standard crank with 11-23 to now having semi compact with 11-32. All this via a 6700 semi compact with 11-25. I think, day to day, the 5800 is the better groupset. But the 7700 was/is beautiful to look at.
I just bought a rim brake race bike with the rays 9100 and absolutely loved it
Old Suntour derailleurs allow a wider range of gears (larger freewheels & smaller chainrings) for us old guys to limp up hills (most riders of these ancient bikes). Most of my vintage bikes are equipped w/a mish-mash of Suntour deraileurs, Dia-Compe brakes & SR, Sakai or Sugino cranks, which most entry level road & touring bikes were equipped with in the 70s & 80s.
Great review. Dura-Ace truly stands the test of time!
I tuned by Sora 3000 group set to a T and it shifts like butter. No issues and silky smooth reliable shifting.I did upgrade the jockey wheels to Tripeak sealed bearings and it’s even better now. The stock ones don’t have bearings.
DA 7700 is the smoothest shifting setup I've ever used. I finally had to retire my set last spring after the rear shifter stopped downshifting. Yes, I cleaned and lubed it in the hopes that I could revive it but it was just too worn. Well, 20+ years of use is plenty so I'm still impressed.
Great video, good job! Honestly i ride DuraAce 7800 and the only thing that i prefer from new groupsets is the comfortable hood design.
7800 is still perfection in all aspects, only the hoods are better on new stuff
I have put Sora 3503 3x9 in my 2016 Salsa Merrakesh touring bike and I feel that it preforms as well as the 105 on my 1992/3 Giant CFR2
My first ever racing bike - a Peugot with 531 tubing came with 105...and it was a fab groupset, that was back in 1992, now I run the latest version of 105 and it's still a brilliant groupset, I don't think anyone needs anything better unless they are pro. In between I used tiagra and sora groupsets and they both ran fine but did not have that 'feel' and solidness of 105 and above.
I raced on that DA 9 speed group. It was perfect, but what I loved the most was the octalink bb and cranks - they were perfect
Job very well done Gentleman.
Both of as share same love old school road bikes. Dure Ace old type are much better fan of rims brakes and so I think Disc brakes are just to make more profit for Companies as well Service staff.
Greetings from Korea by Bosnian man
Excellent Review. I have both Dura-Ace and Ultrega on bikes from the same time period. Have never had an issue with them. That said, if I was to get a new bike I would have no problem with Sora. As we get a little older that 12/25 starts to look smaller and smaller.
I went from Tiagra 4600 to Ultegra 6700 and feel pretty good about it. I do wonder if modern Tiagra is just as good though... maybe that's your next groupset to compare with?
The fact for almost everything is the wear. When you spin the wheels you slowly polish the bearing track , as you pedal you slowly polish the bottom bracket surface, as you squeeze the brakes or change the gears you slowly polish every contact part... generally they refer this to campagnolo groupsets saying it starts rough but then it gets better but it happens for every mechanical thing . Give the sora 25 years of continued usage and then make the comparison again. The difference will be much smaller
Given the choice, I’d go with NOS Dura-Ace every time. The shifter throw is more positive. The fasteners, pivots, springs, etc are all stainless or titanium so that they will not rust. Just start stocking up on NOS brake hoods, because Shimano no longer makes them.
Hello, as for the NOS brake hoods, you can always DIY with leather. That's my plan. Cheers!
Love your work, intelligence and articulate
Thank you! 👍👍
For me I'm happy and satisfied with my sora groupset although I would like to change to a bigger range cassette. Currently I have an 11-28t cassette.
Nice video. Love the commitment in the road test. You mention different tyres. Maybe that is the big factor in your time difference ?? Another possibility is the CroMo frame on the Colnago. Good old fashion Chrome Moly is famous for giving a smooth ride ( vibration damping). Maybe that was the big factor in the time difference ?? Cheers
7800 was a smoother shifting better braking Dura-Ace groupset than 7700. My first top end bike was a Colnago C40 (non B Stay) with 7700 Dura Ace- I thought I was Big Time 😂 I eventually put 7800 on it.
I own a bike shop and service all drivetrains in a given month. I love the silver look of the older drivetrains, l love the wider chains, the precise and distinctive shifting. But the STI’s and braking have definitely improved since 7700. The thread in BB Hollowtech system last forever and makes removing and reinstalling a Crankset a breeze.
I own several bikes with R9100 mech 11 speed groupsets IMHO it is really the pinnacle of Dura-Ace groupsets or any mechanical groupset for that matter.
25 year old Dura-Ace crankset hollow tech would never.
I started riding on Sora and find it quite capable, not fancy but it works
I feel you- I still ride hoarded 9 speed XTR 952 MTB drivetrains.
Two of my bikes (2006 S-Works Tarmac, 2005 LeMond Tete de Course) have DA 7700 (although as a creaky old person I have gone with compact cranksets) and I still think the components are wonderful. They look great and shifting and braking is still top-notch after all these years and kilometers. Alloy parts are lovely and while I understand the trend I am a bit disappointed that component makers like Shimano and Campagnolo have gone to the black/carbon look. I sincerely hope that that Colnago was no scratched in the test!
Just a small scuff on the RH lever hood and tiny chip on the rear mech. It’s sad but it’s for riding as well as gazing lovingly at 😍
Less importantly, I was fine too 😂
I was really interested in this Video because I too have one of these 9 speed Dura ace group sets which I bought on my new Trek around 2003. Unfortunately the 10 speed came around a year later and of course I had to upgrade right away. But the Dura Ace 9 speed lives on what was once my rain bike, an old Specialized S works aluminum frame that I built up from scratch one winter. That bike lived on my trainer for years and years when I lived in the Chicago area. Just got back into riding after a 11 year Hiatus from road biking. Of course now I’m that Retro Grouch that is riding a 2007 Trek Madone with 10 speed sram Force with 2010 Zipp 404 Clinchers. With kits that are from the same era. Oh and I’m competitive in the Town line sprints again with guys that are riding the newest tech.
Both my 9 and 10 speed Dura ace Group sets shift and perform like silk.
I still love the 9000 groupset the best, but who couldn't love the old 7700. Make Roadies Rimbrake Again.
I've still got my 7700 group set stashed away, there are times when I think i should sell it, then get the 53/39 chainset out and rear mech and I think beauty cant be sold! I truly wish Shimano would make a chainset that looks a million dollars, without octolink bb as I think their modern cranksets look weighty and not aesthetically pleasing! But I guess looks dont win prizes!!! 😁😁😁
Agreed. The 7700 and 7800 were the last of the good looking Gruppos. Everything went downhill after that. DA peaked with the 7800 wrt to looks.
But what if you did a full upgrade on the stock sora cable inners and outers on with Ultegra/Dura-Ace level ones? For a good period of time. shifting should be pretty slick until the cable coatings wear off. Even if you use the standard opti-slic 105 set it should be better than the stock sora outers i would assume??
**Edited to add more context and make for easier reading**
That's why I won't build my bikes with Dura-Ace anymore. Too high maintenance. They'll all be built up with 105. In the end, it's hard to tell the difference anyway once you're underway with a 105 bike.
It’s a good point. I forgot to mention in the vid that the external routing outside the bars of old DA must contribute to better shift feel.
Great video, but the Sora front deraileur had been installed wrongly, the cable should be routed above the little pin than to the bolt, this will affect your shifting feeling.
Fully agreed - not only the group set is stylish but also the frame
I am overweight I am using a Sora derailleur on a 9 speed Ultegra set with a new crankset 34 -50 and 11-32 cassette
(11, 13 are never used and 15 only rarely) but if you are in good shape 12 to 25 is good and as said stylish
What I see on both is a bunch of screws and rivets working the same way on a rather similar articulated designed pieces. The only difference on the Dura-Ace is more metal pressing in order to give it a shine look. The functionality is the same and that's why the kits are interchangeable.
When comparing these cranksets, you also need to include the corresponding bottom brackets.
nice braking commitment!
Change the your DA STI position on that Colnago, to me it looks wrong. I am still riding 9 speeds on bikes from around year 2000, the only problem is that grease might dry on the STIs after many years.
i am still using my shimano 105 1055 shit levers that i bought a few days ago for pennies still going strong, the rear derailleur is the same 105, the front derailleur is a sora from early versions, all of them are still going strong and for sure i ain't gonna replace any time soon
I'm an oldish (54) man who likes new things. The groupsets from the past look dated to me, and I lust after the latest ones in general. I prefer the styling of Ultegra cranks over Dura-Ace though
I lean the other way. I’m slightly older, but I prefer the classics. I have a ‘92 Trek 2300 with Tri-color 600 - precursor to Dura-Ace, I believe - and it’s my go-to bike on the Travel-Trak trainer. I have newer bikes, and different component sets, but the 2300 is a favorite.
Retro Dura Ace is bullet proof.
Nice video. Sorry for your fall. I hope you didn't destroy the rear derailler.
Shimano is my only choice for many years. I was astonished when I got the DA 9000 11s mechanical groupset. The best. Especially when compared to the 10speed junk ultegra was. Of course today's 11speed Ultegra is wonderful (105 still sucks) for an everyday bike.
Small scratch on the rear derailleur after that fall but it wasn’t 100% perfect anyway. Thank you for your concern!
That Dura-ace is some modern tech compared to my first road bike! I had 70's super record stuff (in the early 80's so it was old when I got it)!
WELL since l own an old 105 of the same vintage on my 84 myata with just an 8spd but 12-32 gears with 44/30 up front for climbing duties and 2nd gen ultegra 9spd on my Lance TREK team bike and have tried my friends old Durace 10spd on his old TREK 5500 l can SAY YES THAT DURACE DOES SHIFT GREAT and hoods feel better too !! SOOOOO l guess it comes to ride feel ,l d like to try newer SORA levers for better fit of my large hands . YES SIZE MATTERS WHEN it comes to brifters but all the other bits work great still !! ALSO since ye old 105 shifter sticking l m going to try micro shift brifters for my 8spd and possible LTWOO R5 s for my 9spd l like the design better than SENSA ONES .
I use DA 7700 with down tube shifters. I love it.
For the power difference while climbing, I have to believe it's the tire quality and rolling resistance increase that is the dominant factor. If those hubs have cup and cone bearings, chances are they're severely over preloaded, as is so so common out of the box.
I have different bikes and I'd prefer getting a used 7700 over a new sora - any day... but on the other hand I love to build up bikes myself and build a relationship while doing so...
I did much the same on my 1990 MASI. Its had Ultegra 9 speed on it for many years, octalink or what ever they call it. Shifters finally started rattling too much. I put on the newest at the time SORA 9 speed brifters, 2020 I think? They work like a champ, I think they shift better than the Ultegra ever did.
Even though they are SORA, they still cost over 200.00 US.
I still have a Specialized MA4 built with Dura Ace 7700. It’s a lovely groupset but my biggest complaint is the long throw of the levers.
Interesting video, I just built a "budget" bike and went with Sora for it's affordability, but I did buy a Dura Ace 7700 rear derailleur. It's a thing of beauty, and I suspect the rear derailleur has a great impact on the shift quality.
every derailleur built before 2000 is a thing of beauty especially the ones with metal shifters
I run Sora on my "cheap" bike and I run a XT or XTR cassettes to get light weight @ ultegra weight.
What a the Dura-ace cables and housings? are they coated with something to reduce frictions?
Let's see Dura-Ace 7400 versus Claris 2300 next.
i have what i believe is the previous iteration of sora. it still has the old-timey cable routing on the brifters. other than that, it does not look slick, and the shifting does feel quite agricultural to be honest, compared to a modern tiagra set even. but it is easy to set up, brakes like a charm, and it just works. got the groupset used but in great condition, including integrated crankset for the cost of a set of new tires. can't beat the value to price ratio
My Allez came with Claris 8 speed, which I completely changed to be full Claris (brakes, crank, etc). I run the stock compact double with a 11-34 8 speed cassette, and it tackles every mountain I’ve thrown it at. Sure Ultegra or 105 is my goal but Claris has been good enough for 5k miles and 200,000ft+ of elevation gain so far. And both derailleurs have been replaced, both very cheap to repair.
It's a very good groupset for us recreational riders. Plenty capable, and available in 3 chainring to climb even crazier routes.
Really nice video of the difference between modern and old.The Specialized looks like a real good value for money bike,what model is it?
2022/23 Allez sport
I always recommend Sora for people who are considering getting into cycling but don’t know if they will like it. Of course it is theoretically cheaper to buy a used bike, a new entry level bike and a bike fit will almost always be better. Weight shouldn’t matter - if your BMI isn’t 19-20, then you shouldn’t be thinking of weight on your bike anyway.
That Dura Ace and its Ultegra compatriot is bomb proof and provides excellent mechanical performance. The real issue is that the Dura Ace is now considered “vintage” and good examples are getting more and more expensive for NOS.
There is no way Sora can match that classic Dura ace Groupset its the best quality they ever made & still even 10 speed is so smooth to shift & the braking is almost as good as Disc brakes.I have that 10 speed dura ace groupset on my 1992 Cliff Shrubb 531 frame its all Quality kit.
I have two bikes with 7700, so I can say for sure that 7700 shifts better than any other older Dura Ace group, but not as well as 7800, or newer Dura Ace groups. As for gearing, there were many cassette options, ranging from the "manly" 11-21, 11-23, 12-21, 12-23, 12-25, and even a 12-27. The 7700 rear hub, with its titanium cassette body is a work of art.
I noticed that you didn't mention the dreaded non-sealed BB7700, with its tiny ball and roller bearings. Most riders replaced it with the sealed bearing Ultegra version of the bottom bracket.
I still have the BB7700 bottom bracket on my TT bike. I protected it by running a bead of fresh grease around the spindle before every TT.
Ought to do the test again: go up 1st on the Sora bike and then use the Dura-Ace bike. Curious to see those numbers.
Great comparison very interesting 👍🤩🏅🚴
This iteration of Shimano Sora (R3000) was launched in 2016 and there have been two previous versions - another 9 speed and a 8 speed version. I don't know why Mr. Smythe called Sora "brand new" and questioned "how long it's going to last".
I own bikes with R3000 Sora, R7000 105 the old Ultegra 6500 from the early 2000s. The shifting on the Sora is superior to Ultegra 6500 and only a step behind current 105 mechanical shifting. You can't go wrong with Sora - period. It's durable, works great, has a massive range, 9-speed cassettes and chains are inexpensive and it's half the price of 105.
I use Sora 3x9 on my MTB to gravel conversion. It works
Hi can you tell me what is the best sora or dura ace?
Sora is the real and true people's budget groupset and a groupset that honestly really don't need anymore upgrading to 105 as a weekend or fitness recreational rider. We all get hung up on latest tech and 12speed advertisements but until you actually ride and compare the actual differences it's marginal.
Shimano should bring back the 9speed triple chainrings up front back...or let's make it even better the 10speed triple chainring back. Put that on the so-called "all road" bike and we have a true quiver killer in road and gravel! Make it electronic for smooth shifting if you feel that the front mech is faulty to perfect it.
That's what people need for an "all road" bike. 12 speed...non racers don't need that.
Triples are great.
My first serious new road bike was a Raleigh R100 with 8 speed Sora triple, bought in 2001. Not light weight by any means but a lovely ride and the 8X3 indexed shifting was amazing, being used to 52/42 and 5 speed friction shifting. Unhappily the bike was stolen from my garage and its insurance replacement was 2X8 Sora, which in those days was a 53/39 beast. The lack of cadence options was not nice and nor was the lack of lower gears. I eventually went down the road of compact chain sets and upgrades to 9 then 10 speed. Only with the introduction of 10 speed cassettes did I see any real equality of ease of use, gear range and closeness of ratio between that of the old 8X3 system. Triples are great and there is a good reason they are still specced on touring bikes. It's a shame they are not offered in even medium range group sets these days.
I still using DA 7700, the only issue i have is the crank finish is not good its pitted and i am thinking of having them refinished.
I haven't owned enough bikes / group sets over the years to have a favorite, but I'm riding Shimano 105 5800 (circa 2017) now and 105 has many times been described as the "sweet spot" between price and performance. In college around 1990 I knew a racer who raced on 105 just so he could swap out or replace parts as needed cheaply. My fear is that 105 will become only available in an electronic flavor. I really don't want to pay for that, or to have to charge shifter batteries before a ride. I prefer cables.
Nací después que el grupo 7700, y aún así siento que es objetivamente más bonito. Aun asi, proporcionalmente hablando, creo que Sora mejoró muchísimo la goma media de los grupos. Nos entregó una experiencia semiprofesional a aquellos que solo somos simples amantes de las bicicletas.
Sora 3x9 is the ticket.
Difference is probably down to the tyres . Should have used the same tyres on both bikes. Try using gear hanger extension on the Dura Ace and then you could use the same wide ratio cassette as the sora?
Sora r3000 groupset is well, functional. The dura ace 7700 groupset is functionally the same, but the difference in material quality is night and day- this is especially true when it comes to weight. R3000 cranks are ungodly heavy, even when factoring in bottom bracket weight. 7700 series DA cranks+BB rival 105 r7000 in weight.
And addressing affordability- you can score old dura ace from the used market pretty cheap.
For me Sora (and the rest of modern groupsets) are better becouse of the hood shape. I like to ride in the hoods and they are just more ergonomic, so they're more comfortable for me.
I'd take modern Sora over old dura ace anyday but i think if you can just scrape a tiny bit more together go for 10 speed 4700 tiagra it's bloody brilliant tbh.
Funny enough I had a 2018 Allez sport that I swapped the RD on with a dura ace 7700 and the axis brake calipers with ultegra ones of the same generation. Also swapped the FD with a modern 105 one and Campy zonda c17 wheel set. The bike was great, light, and fast. I’m glad to have my 2022 tarmac sl6 sport but I do appreciate how capable the Allez was.
Well, first off, the timing of your comparison test is uncanny. I have the Dura Ace 7700 on an old Motobecane and two DA 7800 drive trains on a TREK Madone and an Elite Tri bike. I love all three. I have been thinking about transferring at least one of the 7800's to a new frame when the time comes. As well, I have a Canyon equipped with a DA 9000 Di2 drive train and love it too. I must say however, the 7800 drive trains are solid, reliable and still exceptional. They perform as well or better than you describe. I just installed a 7800 narrow gauge 10-speed DA chain on the TREK along with DA 34 carbon wheels with the aluminum brake surface. That has made a noticeable difference. Even though it only has 10-speeds (12/30 cassette), it performs better than when it was new. The only thing I am concerned about is the longevity of the 2005 TREK OCLV frame. I have taken care of it but can't get a definitive read on how long it will last?
Any thoughts on an acceptable replacement frame when the time comes? I plan on keeping and transferring the 7700 and 7800 drive trains. (I am happy to send pictures if you like.)
Larry C.
How does it compare with Campag Super Record?
Sora components reduce the number of parts and use cheaper materials. Fore example the chain guide/rollers on the derailleur might be plastic with metal bushings on the nicer set but all-plastic on the Sora. The one I noticed in particular is that the nicer calipers have hardened steel inserts where the adjustment set screw pivots against. It makes a big difference in the feel in your handlebars through the range of motion. Much more crisp.
Well, the problem is not in the Dura Ace hoods but horrible bar shape. Almost all pre-compact era bars are a pain to ride, sloped forward. A compact bar is a game changer even for the classic bike.
Agreed. Riding in the drops was the default racing position even in the 1990s and less attention was paid to hoods. A more modern bar would improve it.
Love Dura Ace, just can't justify spending that much. Dura Ace will outlast, but Sora is the bang for the buck champion. Since I started serious cycling to save money on commuting, Sora wins. Cycling used to be a poor man's friend, but the industry wants to sell us on the fantasy of expensive tastes. The worse inflation gets, the more Sora wins.
that Colnago in that color is my dream, 7700 dura ace is still better than anything AXS