Forever the funniest misunderstanding on one of my videos will be people thinking I hate Spider-Verse because I was trying to throw shade at Morbius. The joke fell flat because I was showing clips of Morbius and failed to take into account that nobody’s seen that movie.
Another tangent, in MoM, the 838 universe has ULTRON bots, so we have to assume that the Ultron project succeded in that universe without ultron going evil mode. Thus the Vision body should be inhabited by Ultron and Vision should not even exist in that universe. So the big question is if those children are not created by magic, WHO SHAGGED WANDA?????
The real question is, where is Iron Man or even Hank Pym? Iron man in the movies created Ultron so you’d think there’d be a Superior Iron Man in this universe or have Hank Pym on the team because in the comics, he made Ultron. Mr Fantastic is on the team but he wouldn’t make Ultron, he would make Herbie bots. The Addition of Ultron Bots is interesting but that adds questions, is Ultron a multiversal constant then? Because Mr F made them instead of the usual Stark.
I think marvel will have an even bigger problem in the phases after whenever this multiverse thing concludes. Nobody can die for good now. There's also so many potential plot holes that's going to come out of implementing the multiverse. Endgames time travel unfortunately ruined marvel for me.
I keep hearing people complain about how nobody dies for good due to multiversal replacements but after No Way Home, Multiverse of Madness, What-If and Loki, this hasn't happened yet. I don't think people are gonna become immortal due to the multiverse.
Spoiler warning for Thor 4.The multiverse stuff is so uninteresting and overcomplicates the MCU for me. Why can't we just stay on one universe and not mess with this time travel and multiverse bullshit that makes more plotholes and problems. They have time travel now that means they have infinite resources and is overpowered. Most of Marvel phase 4 stuff is sloppily written and they just don't care about the implications of adding new stuff or the history of previous characters. For example, the new thor movie. Thor can give his powers to anyone now??? what? why didn't he do that in Infinity War or Endgame? and there is a space looking guy that can grant wishes. Why didn't Thor consider this as an option to defeat Thanos or bring back all the people that have been snapped. Not to mention that the new Thor movie is just a jokefest that cares more about delivering bad jokes than telling a good story. The whole movie is treating itself as a joke so why should I care about it? The whole movie also looks like an eyesore. Thor's suit looks like a child designed it. What happened
@@mosorireayewale8171 it can happen but it isn't as simple... Natasha died in a universe from what if, but the Vigilant rewarded another Black Widow by putting her in that universe that lost it's Natasha since she was the only living being left since Ultron killed everyone
For me the problem is less in the details and more about the simple lack of cohesion. We've now had three major multiverse stories in MCU, at about the same time, and they're all basically unrelated. It felt like Loki laid the groundwork for future multiverse events and was then immediately forgotten.
EXACTLY. Like the major events at the end of loki are just ignored pretty much and we arent shown any link between them and the events in no way home or dr strange 2. Also I was expecting and would have liked for the ending of no way home to show a visible link to dr strange 2 but dr strange doesnt even mention any events that happened In no way home
@Cool Videos we know but just because the show is in another timeline dont change the fact that this is pretty much broken one time is told to us that every single choice creates timelines in another just when the infinity stones is removed and in another if you break a single event you're arrested to maintain the multiverse intact and it goes on, different rules that is happening in the shows, they told us that every single one is canon, but, when you start to think, none of then could even exist in the same dimesion or multiverse or what freak name you decide to choose
Marvel Studios should have, at the very least, had a story bible that outlined exactly how they wanted to handle the multiverse and branching timelines, that way and directors and writers who work on an MCU project know what is and isn’t possible within the bounds of the MCU’s rules. Ben 10 had a lot of stories involving time travel and multiverse travel, but it never got too convoluted since they quickly established rules for how they work.
Anothrt thing is that it doe woore than being incoherent, it doe serious exposition whil having the lack, incoherence can be overlooked if you dont force viewer via exposition to pay attention to it. Like the worse thing than being incoherent, is pretening you are when you arent , like endgame. If you dont pretend to follow coherent rules, say "dont care abiout it, tiomey whimey" not prtending you have coherent rules planned out.
@@bojaboom1407 Strange mentions No Way Home in Multiverse of Madness. When America asks what experience they have with the multiverse, Strange mentions "an incident with Spider-Man"
The best multiverse movie that came out this year was Everything Everywhere All At Once. Not only did it do justice to what the absolute chaos of such a concept would entail, but also simultaneously wove a truly heartfelt story, which somehow managed to make me choke up with emotion all the while laughing my arse off.
In the mcu they are It’s based off one of the real life theories of the multiverse, that because of electrons the timeline often splits into 2 timelines for some things
In loki it is explained that letting a alternate timeline branch off for too long will turn it into a alternate universe which was the reason that the tva tried to destroy the timelines as soon as possibile so that it doesnt create a universe as it will be impossible to destroy the timeline after it becomes a universe, Soooo they are different enough, but also same if not done anything for long time
@Flexible music lover thats what I was thinking as well, seems like if they go and do that now after all the multiverse stuff they are doing it would be like stepping back, which might not be a bad thing
Same. The multiverse is cool, but we shouldn't have done it yet bc as soon was Endgame was done all I could think about is continuing or finishing the other characters' stories. They kinda did that with Spiderman (but again, could've done it without the Multiverse), making Thor the King of New Asgard and he could be pushed to the background or become a mentor, Hawkeye could've become a mentor to the new Avengers whoever they are, or followed Nebula, but they jumped straight into the multiverse that was a bit too complicated for some viewers.
Honestly I feel like they should have done The Eternals and a Black Window movie before they even did Endgame. Also yeah I think the first part of phase 4 should have focused on the earth and space stuff, then they could of Introduced Kang and done the Spider-man movie at the end of phase 4 to hype up phase 5.
I have always said that "WandaVision" would have been the perfect place to re-introduce Mordo, as his whole thing was "Too Many Sorcerers", and Wanda was misusing her powers.
You are right, that was yet another interesting element that Multiverse of Madness wasted. Although, I'm afraid that there was a certain eliminated scene where Mordo goes to kill Wanda with that purpose in mind, but she, as overpowered and corrupted by the Darkhold as she is, kills him instead. At least, without that scene in the actual movie, Mordo of Earth-616 is presumably still alive and therefore his narrative arc can be successfuly reused for future projects.
@@stumbling_ Technically no, but she does use 'True Magic', boosted.....somehow.....by exposure to the Mind Stone, whereas people like Loki and the other Asgardians use what is sometimes called 'Clarke-Tech': Technology so advanced its indistinguishable from magic (and that change really upset some comic fans, although I can see how Marvel might not have wanted to introduce Magic into their universe until Dr. Strange shows up).
@@MrChupacabra555 Okay I get that but Mordo thinks there’s too many Sorcerers. As in people learning magic through the mystic arts. Witchcraft is hereditary and you’re born with it. He thinks people are misusing the powers they’ve learned and that sorcery shouldn’t be handed out so willingly.
It's the filmmaker way. Just ask the music expert who was hired for Avatar and ended up just like Sigourney Weaver's character did in the movie (well not killed, but having her work derailed into something more convenient for the filmmakers).
I think it should be mentioned that it was regarding the same sacred timeline, though. The other peter's timelines are wayyy too different to be involved in the sacred timeline.
@@thelifeofme5221 The other Peters UNIVERSES weren't a part of the sacred timeline. He Who Remains put all the timelines that resulted in his birth into a single timeline, the rest of the multiverse was locked outside of reality by him.
@@NottherealLucifer True, I just think it's gets a bit complicated with the lack of any explanation to this. Also, slight thing here, he actually killed all the other Kang timelines and isolated his own, so he could control it. I do assume the multiverse exists outside of the previous sacred timeline
I think that’s why I fell “out of love” with Marvel. The movies (last I checked), lack consistency, writing, and those god awful quips and puns that never stop really turned me off. With Star Wars, I just choose to ignore the sequels and only acknowledge The Mandalorian. Kinda sad but it seems to work for everyone else (they keep breaking box office records) 🤷🏾♀️
@@randombrokeperson At some point Marvel will tank and die, and this awkward phase of humanity will end. What I never understood, however, is people saying that Marvel didn't suck until phase 4, NO, they were ALL incredibly mid generic phases.
@@gandalfthegrey2592 Right - the MCU started sucking probably around the second Captain America movie. I was slowly checking out then, but I held on for a couple movies and even preordered tickets to see ‘Black Panther’, but I was done after that. I do have to remind myself that it’s perfectly fine other people like these (terrible paint-by-number) movies and shows, but I can’t help feeling like I want it all to just END. I’m not sure all these comic movieverses and cinema franchises will “restore” mainstream film to what it was before, but as long as people stop with the damn quips and releasing 3-6 movies for the same project over and over… I will be able to breathe a tad easier 8/7/22 🌙 501
I think there is a perfect explanation of Wanda’s children existing in other realities. In the Hex, she created the life of her dreams and we learned that dreams are visions from other universes. We even see Wanda waking up from a dream with her kids in the movie.
Then that would mean in the other universes (That she dreams of) the town she enslaved in WandaVision is still enslaved. Because if she gave up the Hex’s in the other universes that would mean she gave up her kids too since they were apart of it.
@@_wowzaimshook_9368 Not necessarily. In the universe with the Illuminati, that Wanda most likely had her kids naturally with a father we don’t see on screen. Since Thanos was easily defeated in that universe, Wanda wouldn’t have gone into extreme grief and thus wouldn’t have created a hex.
@@_wowzaimshook_9368 How is it? Wanda is another universe has kids naturally with a guy. Our Wanda then has a dream of that universe and then uses her magic to create a replica of those kids she saw.
Small notes: Your “Three Peter” problem doesn’t contradict Loki. Loki establishes incredibly early on that variants don’t have to look the same. I mean in like episode 2 we find out that Sylvie is a female Loki. Then near the end we meet a variety of Lokis, one of which is an alligator. Secondly, it’s not ever implied that multiverses are created upon decisions. In common media, new timelines are created for every possible decision, but the MCU never implies that about itself. Lastly, with Loki and the disaster thing, I actually see the timelines as each being similar enough but having a safety tarp around them. So the “single” timeline was actually trillions of timelines flowing together because they were “similar enough”. Small variants can happen in each timeline, like Loki being born a girl or an alligator, but it’s only once those changes become significant enough for the timeline to Pierce through the safety tarp does it become a danger to the TVA. So Loki in Pompeii is changing the timeline, but that change is so insignificant due to the disaster that it doesn’t pierce the safety tarp and all the timelines continue flowing together. But this isn’t to say I disagree with your central thesis. The multiverse is a mess right now and I really hope that the rules become better defined. And I do think most of those problems boil down to endgames depictions of time travel, which is frustrating since endgame is the first show to depict it.
The TVA agents also establish this as well when looking at their temp pads, they monitor that the timeline does not breach away from the sacred timeline.
@@tonytonyantonio2 right. I'm pretty sure the branching timelines were just timelines resulting in other versions of kang. If these places suffered cataclysms nothing inside them would leave to affect the timeline thus everything leading up to kang remains unchanged.
It’s still massively inconsistent and illogical, Loki has a bunch of variants that, vary, because he’s canonically a shapeshifter , the maximov Peter stuff would imply there isn’t any consistency at all, no trend or pattern just completely random mixture of traits and appearances, which again doesn’t explain how in all of infinity any one grouping would be identified between realities, there’d be as many wandas with Spider-Man powers as there would be peters with wandas powers or kangs who aren’t kang vice versa etc.
@@TheShadesOfBlack maybe, but it’s still the only thing that’d make any sense, or like I said all other variants would be just as random, which they aren’t, the explanation in the comics is because he literally has many forms and reincarnates, thought it was a nod to that, otherwise is just nonsense.
One thing I’d like to point out is that when the timeline was freed, an infinite number of branch timelines were formed. So universe’s branched far enough from the main timeline can be significantly different, explaining why Three variants of Spider-Man can look completely different.
That is true. The universe is billions of years old. Go back far enough and make a small but significant change and practically anything is possible. In this case, Tobey Peter and Andrew Peter looking almost completely different from Tom Peter could be from a small but significant change like their respective 6x great grandparents marrying different people and continuing their lineage. Plus, it would also explain why Tobey Peter and Andrew Peter never heard of the Avengers, because they never became a thing in their respective universes.
i also think loki pretty much established variants don't need to look like the main universe counterpart, i mean in that show loki has variants where he a woman, a black guy and even an alligator but then president loki is just another tom hiddleston, so basically the rules are some variants look like each other and some don't
@@evenhartwick4422 they do it as they see fit, strange variants and his girl were exactly the same and even Ended the same in most universes, What are the odds of that ?
You’re not nit-picking at all. One of the things I have always admired about marvel is their ability to make all of their movies connect some way some how. They dropped the ball in phase 4.
@Turbo1 Gaming Hi! :) it means they didn’t meet expectations and mishandled things. Essentially they let us down (errrr let me down, can’t speak for everyone)
They REALLY dropped the ball with ''No Way Home''! The clueless writers gave Peter Parker the ''George Bailey'' treatment. Well, Tom's version of Peter Parker, not Tobey's or Andrew's. I guess I can rest easy on that! 😏
They were dropping the ball way before then! The Black Adam ending (I believe Guardians 2) at the end of one of those movies still makes no sense & nothing ever came of it.
Let’s also acknowledge the fact that Loki stealing the Tesseract in Endgame was not supposed to happen, but all that time traveling the Avengers did was, despite the fact that Cap and Tony traveling back to 1970 to try and get the Tesseract again happened BECAUSE Loki stole the Tesseract in the first place. What the hell is this writing?
Maybe when hulk hit Tony and the tesseract flew out, someone else picked it up probably a government official. Or Thor took it away to asgard immediately which is why on the normal timeline it ends up on asgard and Steve and Tony still had to go back to 1970 to get it from there. Meaning they always had to go back regardless of the how. Now the who on the other hand causes problems. Loki wasn't supposed to pick it up, which causes a branched timeline.
@Samuel Mutia That’s a logical explanation, but if that were true they should’ve said it in the show. All the TVA said is “You weren’t supposed to do that lol.”
The “3 peters” issue isn’t really a problem. Peter’s father would’ve had different sperm at the times the Peter’s were conceived, because they were born at different times. But they were raised the same, so they would have very similar personalities and the same name despite being genetically different.
True but you’d also be applying the fact that Peter’s father would be a different age as of making Peter, or be setting back his entire heritage back to keep his father (and mother for that matter) the same age as when they conceived him
This makes a lot of sense. Honestly my only gripe is that we didn't get anecdotes or the hint of Tobey's Peter potentially having been in the Avengers from the start, as an experienced and mature hero.
@Viper Hareous , May Day Parker, (Spider-Girl), was the very spider person to develop web shooters even before Peter Parker Ultimate comics did in the 2000’s, so if the MCU wanted to have alternate timelines and alternate universes being totally different from each other than they should introduced May Day Parker, (Spider-Girl), into the MCU, and that way everyone is perfectly happy, and videos like these along with comments like mine would never be made.
There was also a bunch of Lokis that looked totally different despite being considered the same person, so I don't really see any inconsistency in there being several Peter Parkers from three different universes
My only problem with this vid is that the 3 different peters definitely act within the set rules of the multiverse including that of Loki, near the end of Loki there's a bunch of different looking variants, one of which is a damn alligator. So spidermen of other universes looking different still makes sense. But other than that this is an incredibly made video and I can tell how much effort you put into it
@@CapNemoSan yes it dos make secne lrian the rules of the multiverse they say any thing and evey thing can and dos happens it the ruels lrian them so it dos make senece
It’s an incredible hater video nothing else. Like you said the guy is just ignoring and making things up to hate tho he has some solid points. He also said Michael didn’t watch WandaVision since Wanda was a good guy in the end but he knows Wanda was using the dark hold in the post credit scene still he is acting like writer made some crazy choice making Wanda evil now. Guy just some blabbering hater nothing else.
@@yashpednekar4381 why do you dismiss a valid critique as a "hater video"? This guy clearly put effort into a well made video, there's no need to insult him just because you like Marvel's Time travel. Dude literally just made a mistake, that's all. Everyone agrees the multiverse is a mess lol
I just realized, in Avengers: Infinity War, Dr. Strange literally says he studied 14,000,605 alternate timelines to see which one would be the best choice for victory. How did he see 14,000,605 timelines if only one existed when the Loki series began? Edit: The replies to this comment clearly didn't watch the actual video, because according to Marvel, timelines and universes are the exact same thing. I'm going based on *their* logic, and showing how it's fucking stupid.
My only issue with the multiverse in the MCU is that it was introduced a little too fast and a little too early I didn’t expect the multiverse to be introduced until like Phase 5 but on the bright side I no longer have to wait another 10 years for Secret Wars it’s possible with the multiverse being introduced this early we might get Secret Wars in the next 4 to 5 years hopefully
I think they should’ve done the cosmic saga and it doesn’t have to be long either. Make it be about galactus, he’s getting dangerously close to earth, they find a way to kill him, they realize they can’t because he’s needed to balance eternity and death. They let him eat and they move to another planet, then something comes up and they need to move to another timeline/universe. Then the multiverse saga happens and either Kang is the big bad and Knull is after him. Knull was also the reason they had to move, and would make a good villian since he was around before any universe.
In Loki they're pretty clear that anomolies are only stopped when the changes measure past a certain level. So the hiding in disasters makes sense cause nothing they do will significantly alter anything.
@@paveantelic7876 I believe unless there’s a specific body in a specific position that’s relevant to anything besides being a census number in the Pompeii eruption… it doesn’t matter “exactly” where they are found by archeologists as long as they ARE found in Pompeii
I never got the impression that the Infinity Stones are what anchor the timeline. The Ancient One simply used them as an example because that’s what Bruce was there for. If you notice, she removed the Time Stone from her representation of time, as well, which is pertinent because we knew that Strange would need it to defeat Dormammu.
@@jesusramirezromo2037: Deleted scenes are deleted for a reason, contradictions and inconsistencies can very much be one of those reasons. So you can't really use a scene removed from a film as an example of that film breaking its own rules, if breaking those rules might have been why the scene was removed in the first place.
Agreed. Infinity War and Endgame perfectly paved the way to a Mutant introduction. They served the silver platter to themselves and didnt take it. Instead went multiverse and cosmic threat. Shouldve been a phase 7 idea. Mutants now
I honestly feel like they are trying to expand too quickly. I feel that they could have done all of the MCU Multiverse really well, but with so many different media forums taking on the different projects Feige is not able to keep tabs on it all. So there is no one looking at all the timelines and different universes to make sure that it is not contradicting itself. So you could say that there is no "Kang" watching over everything to make sure that it all makes sense.
I think they should've explore individual stories more without multiverse concept. Maybe tap into little timetravel like Agents of Shield did and explore pther intresting concepts
@@alatielinara Oh yeah agents of shields was great, and dealt well with time travel. even if eason was better than season 7, and the parallel uneverses, also don well. ZThey just needed a strict thing establishing time travel and what you have tostick to. An it would be fine, and that it should matter .
Thoughts: 1 Kang was keeping 616 in quarantine, the other timelines/universes exist, he's just keeping any splits within his quarantine zone to stop himself from popping up. 2 the multiverse before Loki was extremely different universes because the similar ones were either being pruned to prevent their existence or locked beyond his quarantine zone. I guess alternate timelines from before 'time' at the dawn of creation brought about the likes of the Dark Dimension. Once he dies the timelines split off from all times, so similar universes started becoming accessible. 3 America has no other versions because, she just has no other versions, it's her thing. either none of her choices are capable of splitting in her timeline, or the other options cause her to pop out of existence in other timelines. 4 Wanda was far, FAR, from the hero at the end of WandaVision. She tortured a town for weeks(?) then her reparations was to, what, leave? 5 No reason her kids from other universes had to be hex creations, clearly she 'dreamed them up' from her dreams of other Wanda's families, who might not have even been with Vision. 838 Wanda probably created her kids the usual way. 6 Old man cap might have used the Pym particles to travel back. Or maybe he even met with the TVA. 7 Yeah, it's a damn mess.
"Wanda was far, FAR, from the hero at the end of WandaVision. She tortured a town for weeks(?) then her reparations was to, what, leave" Well actually..... "Yeah, it's a damn mess" What is?
In the background you can see a version of Peggy in the TVA. The running theory is that the TVA made a deal with Cap allowed by the one who remains to let him stay in the branched timeline and they returned him back to the proper Earth 199999 or 616 timeline after Peggy died or something. This will prolly be explained nextime we see Cap. Hopefully.
Marvel Studios’ writers are quickly digging themselves into the same hole that comic writers have for decades, and the reason the barrier for entry to new readers is seemingly high: multiple writers who can’t be bothered to read their contemporaries’ stories end up contradicting one another, and the universe becomes inherently complicated if not broken as a result. If Marvel Studios wants to continue their franchise being accessible, they’d do well to establish a concrete set of rules on how their multiverse works going forward, and ensuring all their writers are on the same page. The first 3 phases worked because they had a sense of cohesion, and there weren’t bogged down by continuity errors. Phase 4 is barreling toward problematic continuity at a breakneck speed, and though they’re a company producing films based on comic books, they can’t let themselves fall victim to the problems that have bogged down comic books for decades.
It’s a production issue. They’re putting out like three movies and several things shows a year. These things are being written and filmed alongside each other and are themselves at various points in production. They’re going to have little to no idea about what the story involves
I was so sad Everything Everywhere All At Once went so unnoticed. I vaguely recall maybe seeing a trailer for it while it was in theaters, but then it left my mind and I heard absolutely nothing of it again until after its theater run was over and so many people were praising it. I gotta see it!
Everything, everywhere, all at once has made $63 million in the box office of just the US and it theater run isn't over. AMC theaters and others have not taken this movie out of the movies running at their theaters. Even the DVD/ streaming release took longer than normal because of people are still going out and seeing this movie.
Loved the breakdown. Alternative hypothesis: the unreliable exposition. Because exposition comes from a particular character's understanding, that character may simply be mistaken, or even have no ability to understand a multiverse that does not have consistent physics. The paint world comes to mind. In this context a character in a particular universe simply lacks access to the alternate physics of alternate worlds, and cannot give an accurate account during exposition.
Yeah, its the only way I cant accept that without breaking immersion. All the characters are explaining thing as they know, being unreliable narrators. I think Prof. Hulk is less believable of them all cause he can only assume, not knowing for sure (I actually hate his explanation scene he is so full of himself there...). TVA isn't much reliable either since they even don't know full truth. Ancient one may be on point there but she can be wrong with the names. I actually think that the Agents of Shield time travel concept adds to the MCU one some logic - not every action creating whole another branch\universe and those universes can exist short time and then return back to the one they branched off. So the small action is like stone thrown to the pond - it creates ripples but doesn't change pond itself. I fell like main characters in MCU movie are too confident in their knowledge overall, they are giving expositions with such attitude like they really know what is happening but if we think about it - they have no way of knowing. That's what pissed me off in endgame - prof. Hulk was basically shitting on other explanations of time travel never giving the sane one himself.
Kang formed the main Time Line and maintained it's trajectory until the finale of Loki. The main Time Line consisted of all Multiverses. Remember, Kang's view of a Nexus event is one that causes his multiversal war to happen. All he was doing was preventing that. That is what he deemed the sacred timeline. If you notice from the series. they were always branches forming, some of those branches were left undone due to the fact that they were not significant enough for the war to happen. That's how Multiverses existed during the events of the first doctor strange movie. think about it
Do you think that the living tribunal would've gotten involved? Considering that he who remains is manipulating and completely obliterating timelines from forming and preventing the creation of the vast openness of the multiverse
@@Lukaswags livin tribunal is all about keeping balance in the multiverse if you think about it kang was keeping the multiverse from going into chaos so maybe living tribunal supported it and didn’t intervene
that's a reasonable explanation, and it does explain why the loki variants are so radically different from eachother, but fundamentally it doesn't make sense. Each sub timeline created is another timeline that could split and branch. The tighter they constrain the sacred timeline the easier and safer it is to maintain
Thank you! Finally someone who actually understands! The majority of this video just came from a lack of understanding of the rules Marvel put in place not the other way around.
The MCU is starting to feel more like the Marvel comics nowadays. Too much stuff that is just endlessly rushed out. Best case scenario, marvel takes their time and releases bare minimum one movie per year, with a show in between, allowing writers/directors/CG artists time to work on their respective crafts. I’m sure everyone who works on this stuff is plenty talented, they just don’t have time to really showcase said talent.
It’s not Marvel that’s the problem, it’s Disney. Ever since they bought Marvel and Star Wars, they’ve been pumping content out of them like there’s no tomorrow, not caring about taking their time.
I wish. But it ain't happening. The second any of these side character get the smallest bit of love they rush to make a TV show. Agatha was cool and all but she doesn't need her own show. Same with Echo.
The easiest way to rationalize the dual explanations given on how time travel works is simply to accept that neither Banner nor the "Ancient One" actually have any true understanding of how time travel works. They both present their opinion as if it were fact in an effort to convince the listener (Lang for Banner, and Banner for AO), but this doesn't suggest they actually have innate knowledge of the subject. Having been guardian of the time stone, AO should be the authority, but there's no evidence to suggest she ever used the time stone let alone made any attempt to alter history.
The main issue for me is that now we are desensitized to any future conflicts or villains. There were literal GASPS in the theater during the snap, and we were cheering at the defeat of Thanos. But now we gloss over the fact that entire universes are destroyed by Dr. Strange, without the infinity stones mind you...and CELESTIALS exist and we're just like, yup those guys are weaksauce!
Man, regardless of how much I love something, if it has time travel, I go into hyper critical mode. If writing a story with time travel, I recommend learning a few specifically things: 1.) The difference between timeline, universe, and dimension. 2.) How alternate timelines should theoretically work. 3.) What the butterfly effect is. 4.) What a paradox is.
I agree they did back themselves into a corner with their writing. However the multiple Spider-Men looking like different people is simply because if there is multiple timelines then there’s a timeline where a different sperm met a different egg and so they can still be the same person but look totally different.
It’s refreshing to seen a fan of these shows and movies like the thing and also acknowledge it’s flaws instead of excusing them. I wish more fans were like you.
True. I myself I have to do better because when I try to argue the negatives and people just act as it's impossible to have flaws and then I just end "hating" everything, like the director because I think that maybe people will really take some of this human error as "canon" and then it feel like there isn't a channel about marvel that is not about Easter eggs but about the storytelling and like to talk about MCU as what it is already: Their own Myth anthologies. Liike Greeks they really have a lot of meaning for people, lesson and is created by a lot of different directors so it makes this weird: Everything is united but at the same time there a million type of fans and different stories that make their favs
I think it's called suspension of disbelief or something like that lol kinda helps you enjoy fantasy better. That's how I enjoy one-piece. When someone is a fan of something and you point out its flaws and shit all over the thing they love it's kind of a dick move, and its natural for them to want to explain how they can still enjoy it despite the flaws i.e. Making excuses.
@@allenlowe314 suspension of disbelief is the act of avoiding critical thinking when examining something relating to real-life possibilities. This means you avoid scientifically analysing Iron Man's suit, Thor's power, etc. This, however, is completely different from turning off your brain to bad writing.
@@allenlowe314 Really I think it's telling that you consider "pointing out flaws" and "shitting all over something" to be the same thing. Well I consider "just turn your brain off" and "just blindly consume product and get excited for next product" to be the same thing.
While I understand it is highly unlikely I can kind of wrap my brain around the 3 Peter's thing. Different timelines can be vastly different or very small in terms of changes. Thus I would argue that perhaps the reason that it's different Peter's is because in these timelines events happened that caused Richard and Mary Parker to be born earlier, meet earlier and bang earlier. Thus different spots in time mean different sperm and different ages, thus still Peter Parker, but they look different. You could argue that for any actor in the multiverse that looks different. I know I'm pulling that out of my ass but it's what I've been accepting in order for it to make sense to me.
The biggest problem is that we have almost no guidelines over how things actually work. Lokis powers were pretty consistent until the series Loki came out, with him basically only having illusion magic and being as durable as a god. In the series, he stops a building from falling with some magic. That came out of nowhere. We have basically no idea what the Scarlet Witch can do, which makes it kinda pointless, because they become a big plot device, helping when the writers want while not helping when they aren't wanted. Same with the multiverse. We have no idea what the difference between a timeline and a universe is, much less what causes them to split. How many of them are there? Are there any principles that stay constant in all of them? Is there something that happens in none of them? Are there some that are unreacheable from others? We literally have no idea how any of it works, which is the worst thing you can do. Cpt Marvels powers are overtuned and vague, Time Travelling didn't make any sense, the Quantum Scale is well enough defined for now, but if it shows up for another movie, we need to learn what's possible and not way before they use the things possible to further the plot in convenient ways. Agathas Witch Powers need to be put into context regarding power level and uses. Moon Knight needs a lot of catching up to fit into the MCU, and Eternals left a lot of questions unexplained, especially in regard to Thanos. It has basically become an unending flood of questions with every new release, and if they want to get ma back to viewing their movies at all, they need a lot of solid answers for the things they keep working with
I think a lot of people misinterpret a lot that is said in Loki. It’s not that there is no multiverse, it’s that Kang separated the mcu (sacred timeline) from the multiverse. There are still branching timelines from the sacred timeline that exist, but those branches never were allowed to connect to totally diff universes
Exactly, and people always seems to forget that the events with he who remains in the end of Loki occur after the end of time, so the consequences of those events should had repercussions throughout time, not just "after" its shown to us, because there is no "after" that moment, only before. Needless to say that all the TVA is also beyond time, so thats some bullshit
I understand why normal viewers have trouble understanding the MCU knowing how convoluted it is. Imagine being a normie wanting some dumb fun then having to understand the difference between dimensions, timelines, and universes in a franchise that consistently contradicts its own rules.
I mean you can have a distinction between all those things and have it be easy to understand. Stargate does this pretty well. According to Stargate Lore: A separate Universe is entirely distinct from ours and was created in an entirely different event from our Big Bang. An Alternate Timeline is a different branch of the Timeline where an event happened differently and everything was able to snowball from there. An Alternate Dimension is in the same Timeline and Universe as the Main Dimension, and is basically just another layer on top of reality you can hop to. The main reason these are distinct and understandable is because of the consistent use of different terms, and the fact that we were introduced to these concepts separately, we didn't get all of these at once. We got them one at a time, which gave the audience time to grasp the concepts of each one separately before having to learn to distinguish them.
The mechanics of a story or several stories being nonsensical is NOT a nitpick! Anyone who says so should just admit that they don't care about quality writing. Why is the MCU giving incredibly ambitious and complex narratives to amateur writers? Phase four has some of the worst hack writing I've ever seen and the only reason it's successful is because of the good will the Infinity Saga has built up.
Yeah, they're giving phase four to a lot of unqualified writers and showrunners. I don't hate all of this phase, but a lot of it is subpar. I just thought I was getting tired of the MCU at this point, but whenever I go back to MCU movies pre-2019 (with the exclusion of Endgame which I mostly really enjoyed with the exception of a couple moments) I'm reminded that it's just the subpar quality of the people making a lot of this phase that has me tired and increasingly disillusioned. They seem to care more about identity quota filling and nepotistic connections over hiring people who actually have a good pitch for story and character ideas.
Perhaps they’re just writing from the characters perspectives like a good story should. Our characters haven’t dealt with these complex situations before, so it’s completely reasonable for them to not have all the answers. It also makes no sense for them to exposition dump the entire funadmentals of a reality when a character wouldn’t know that except for maybe Kang, who is coming back in some form soon in the new Antman movie. Why does everything need to be fed to you without any mystery or confusing aspects
If a story is confusing, then it has failed. Good mysteries are wrapped up with a satisfying understanding. Really talented writers can even make those mysteries open ended, but still non-contradictory and satisfying for whatever conclusion an individual may make. The MCU is full of contradictions. In Endgame, we're told that changing your past doesn't change your present. When you time travel, you create an alternate timeline. Yet Steve Rogers appears on that bench implying that he has not travelled to alternate universes to return the stones. In Loki, we're told that there is only 1 sacred timeline. Yet we know of others caused by Endgame, and the infinite multiverse the Ancient One mentions after The Avengers, before Endgame, thus independent of the events of Loki. In Multiverse of Madness, we're told visiting alternate realities causes an incursion. Yet that has never happened in Doctor Strange 1, Endgame, Loki, Spider-Man, or even in Doctor Strange 2 with the amount of time America has spent travelling the multiverse. These contradictions do not arise because of a character's limited understanding of the multiverse, but because the mechanics in each story are contradictory. So the writing is not focusing on plot, but it is not focusing on characters either. Captain America crashed the plane into the arctic, sacrificing his life to save others. After spending a decade in modern times, making new friends, saving an old one, and finding purpose and duty defending the Earth, I refute Steve abandoning the world, to back and live an uneventful life with Peggy and allow numerous tragedies to occur. The most interesting thing to ever happen to Hulk / banner happens off screen. Thor is made into a joke. I understand the reason for his depression, but this depression isn't take seriously and he never redeems himself. Wanda enslaved people. She became aware of the fact that her subjects were terrified but went on for some time. Eventually freeing them does not absolve her of her wrongdoing like how a kidnapper eventually freeing their victim does not absolve them. Then Wanda goes on a murder spree to find her children. This is not simply the corruption from the DarkHold, as she still has the agency to be "reasonable", which to her means sending in monster that are less effective than herself and cause collateral damage and puts innocent bystanders in danger. She chooses to go on the murder spree rather than looking for Vision, recreating her children with her magic, or having her own children by other means. Doctor Strange was apparently aware of what happened in Westview and did nothing to stop it or hold Wanda accountable. He never read about the book of Vishanti even though he loves to read. He is terrible at magic. His alternate self doesn't simply portal to the book and instead engages with the monster. On Earth, Strange doesn't portal the monster away from civilians. He summons a giant saw blade to cut a bus in half, but doesn't use it on the monster. We're told that he always has his hand on the knife, as if that's a bad thing, when in reality his dedication has saved the universe on multiple occasions, including one where he died to allow others to succeed. In Spider-Man, he's fine with altering the minds of the entire world, but immediatly begins casting the complex spell without first discussing the spell or what Peter specifically even wants. I don't see why so many people refuse to acknowledge that good writing has consistency and bad writing has inconsistency. What's wrong with asking a consistent standard to be upheld? Fun does not mean poorly written when movies like The Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, Civil War, Spider-Man 1 and 2, or Spider-Verse are fun with fantastic writing.
@@ngabel8956 1. He simply lived in past, didn’t change the past. 2. Maybe it did create new timelines but kang was still around so they would have be pruned simple.
When I watched Loki for the first time I was confused to no end. The whole idea of there being a "universe outside of a universe outside a universe" ON TOP of alternate realities was like, "ok, do they even know what's going on??" Loki being in the TVA and seeing how extremely insignificant he was there hit pretty hard with me and millions of others but the fact that there's so many questions that remain un answered for us to just "figure out" is extremely frustrating. Star wars has way lore than Marvel but they manage to keep everything "inter-galactic" which makes it simple to understand. There's no "alternative universe."
So does Dragon Ball, and their take on the multiverse is much less loose-y goose-y compared to others. Star Wars (once helmed by George Lucas) had one universe, especially if it was dubbed as “Expanded Universe”.
I thought it was like, all the multiverses are there but all following the same timeline/story, but after Kang was killed, all those multiverses had free will.
Exactly. I think there are a lot of issues but I don't think loki establishes that timelines and universes are the same but rather that there are infinite universes within a timeline
Phases 1-3 gave backstories to all their characters. This girl was in like 50% of the scenes and all I know is that she has magical powers and shes looking for her parents.
The Ancient one wasn’t saying that removing an infinity stone is the only way to make a branch in time. She was saying that the infinity stones hold the structure of time together and the removal of one dooms that universe. So wherever point in time they go with the infinity stone will be fine because it just gained a stone however the point in time they just left will be doomed because that moment in time lost a stone
I think the main problem is how will they put the stone back in its place when you can just travel to the “future”. So after the avengers removed the stone they doomed all those universes/different timelines since they can’t travel in time to the past to that same universe to replace them. They can only go the future
I think the simplest way to reconcile all the multi-meta-madness of the Loki-verse is to take a skeptical view of the TVA's self-aggrandizing propaganda. Compared to the godlike role they portray for themselves, omnisciently pruning all variant multiverses which threaten the integrity of the so-called "Sacred Timeline", the actual scope of the TVA's activities appears rather parochial. They mainly seem to focus on variants who might pose a threat to the ascendancy of He Who Remains, the uber-most variant of Kang the Conquerer. It makes sense that a being of such grandiose self-esteem would feel deeply threatened only by variants of himself, and take action to pre-emptively snuff out any potential competitors' chances. Given the power to kidnap variants from any number of timelines and brainwash them into unquestioning servitude within the TVA, it would be totally in character for Kang to portray their work as a transcendent guardianship of the one true timeline. This would shield Kang's minions from the sordid realization of their mercenary role in maintaining his unchallenged dominion over his own uniquely universal scope, straddling innumerable timelines by the virtue of his unconstrained ego. In short, the TVA's claim to multiversal omnipotence is a megalomaniacal delusion cast by He Who Remains upon his own pathetic minions.
@@jordanmorris5194 - Just another facet of He Who Remains' self-serving propaganda. In reality, it is He who is waging preemptive multiversal war against all other variants who might conceivably pose a threat to his dominion.
This is literally what I was thinking. Bc his whole monologue really didn’t make a lot of sense. Like yea it’s no doubt there are worse variants of him in multiverse. But I actually think it goes deeper than that. Like you said. The propaganda. He portrays himself as self righteous by claiming he is the lesser of the evils and trying to make everyone think the multiverse is at stake. But what if it isn’t? What if he is actually trying solidify his own timeline to ensure he rules for as long as possible. Until the end of time. So when his time came he tried to manipulate Loki and Sylvia into continuing his work. Which is actually an effort to prevent the future avengers from defeating the one who is controlling everything in the actual scale of the multiverse -Kang Prime
No, absolutely nothing about the Marvel Multiverse "works". Not technically and not within the context of the rules the MCU recreates every few episodes/films. As far as Multiverse of Madness, you are wholly correct. And I actually think those same issues are inherent in "Spiderman No Way Home". They might even be more glaring in no way home from a technical standpoint. But honestly, those aren't even the worst choices made in the writing for NWH or MVoM. I really just think the writing for a lot of recent MCU has been just awful, terrible, inconsistent, corporate pandering. And a lot of the new MCU films come off to me as if written by SNL' s classic "wild and crazy guys" , with everything being "wild and crazy" but absolutely none of it making sense or being "good writing". And no, you aren't nitpicking. I actually have WAY more problems with No Way Home that just have to do with character choices, and I've been complaining about them since the first trailers for the film were released, before it came out. Just the idea that Strange would cast such a spell just to help Peter's very minor problem, was unbelievable, and no the 1 minute "explainer" where Strange and Wong talk about the party where everyone at the party forgot. Which is itself a terrible bit of writing even trying to compare changing the memory of people at a party compared to the ENTIRE world and seemingly every individual dimension. This is simply something Strange would never consider, let alone begin casting before actually explaining the ramifications to the person who is the entire focus of the situation and spell. Which might be the worst character choice of all. The idea that Strange would provide no explanation to Peter that literally all those close to him would forget, including Strange, is NOT a character choice Dr. Strange would make, but is ONLY a character choice the writer would create as a cheap rational to get the story where they want it to go. And in this case, it's beyond obvious, it actually kind of hurts the movie, at least for me, a lot. From that point on I can no longer take Strange or Peter seriously. It wholly destroyed my ability to suspend disbelief within the confines of this already established universe of relatively consistent characters. Or at least, what should be consistent characters. And from there, I honestly think the writing goes off the rails even more with the choice to bring these characters from different time lines right before they die, at all drastically different points in time, sometime within the same universe. How does that work exactly? Um it doesn't. I mean let's for a moment put aside the fact that backward time travel is fairly certainly completely impossible, and that "multiple dimensions" doesn't mean infinite copies of every possibility ever, but actual extra spacial dimensions, more akin to what is shown in Dr. Strange with all the various pocket realities, and worlds that don't adhere to normal physics. And forget the FACT that alternate "copies" of a character/person who aren't the same character/person are definitively NOT the same character/person. Thus, they are not "copies" or alternate dimension versions of one another but completely different people. We understand we have to trash the actual rules of reality to even get a film like this off the "rational" ground. But then to go on to establish not one, not two, but multiple different rule sets for the same film "universe", across different films and even within individual films, is just a sign that they really don't know or care how these things would work or if they make sense. No, they are just making a comic film universe where "imagination runs wild" and "anything and everything is plausible", that is, if it can lead to a profit, then it will be given the go ahead. And like, why does Strange's spell effect other "dimensions" at all ? Isn't it just a memory spell? Multiverse of Madness takes these and more inconsistencies to a completely higher level. I'm still waiting for the "perilous journey to the mountain" that Wong talks about, to take place. The one, that Wong stated "no one has ever survived", yet we see no sign of in the film as Wanda and Wong simply levitate their way to the platform. Which theoretically, anyone with a hint of magic could have done. And then this giant prophecy bit, well, a lot of crap really that just was referenced as meaningful but had no meaning within the film. And that's not even getting into the multiverse issues or America Chavez character, who was just a dull McGuffin really who still hasn't sat down to figure out her powers after seemingly sending her parents to a different dimension years ago. Ultimately, I'm not at all surprised by the lack of consistency or thought that went into the multiverse concepts, contradictions and just all around fails, because that same lack of consistency and effort is abundantly apparent in the majority of the MCU writing over the last 5-6 years or so. And it's unfortunate they took series from Netflix, because I thought Netflix did a better job with their series than Disney+ has done so far with most of theirs. Ms. Marvel is practically unwatchable, Hawkeye was very meh and the only reason it worked slightly better than Ms. Marvel is the main actress did an amazing job of making a relatively mediocre and uninspiring character somewhat entertaining on screen. A Hawkeye with none of the depth or backstory of the original Hawkeye. Ultimately though,, it's clear to me that the writing of MCU films has deteriorated extraordinarily since the early days of the MCU. The writing, for the most part, has gotten lazy, sloppy, drastically beyond the bounds of consistent and really ruins a lot of the content for me. Not quite as bad as the writing for Disney Star Wars, but bad enough to at this point verify that possibly the most important aspect of story telling, the writing and story, is a wholly secondary issue in Disney's list of priorities. Which basically means no matter what choices the MCU gets right, there will always be lingering story and plot issues that make MCU films less than what they ultimately could be.
I couldn't agree more with your comment. It all comes down to lazy writing. They know it will make money so they don't care. But just like with Star Wars (or GoT) it's going to bite them eventually, when the faith in the quality of the studio is gone.
The ancient one did NOT say that the ONLY way to make a branch timeline is by de-locating the stone from it's time stream. 6:24 *That is incorrect* She simply said REMOVING the stone from it's proper place in history, would result in a Dark, broken, ever worsening timeline. (Unless it should be returned to it's proper point in history). *Simply put, it's never said nor even close to implied that this is the only way to create a branch timeline* Unfortunately... Making a lot of your timeline argument after 6:24 *decently irrelevant*
Thank you that’s what I came to the comments looking for. This dude keeps saying the MCU is getting the multiverse wrong but his understanding isn’t any better at all lmao
Not really, since he explicitly says that he is ignoring that explanation of the multiverse. It only makes that one point irrelevant, nothing else is based on it, the contradictions remain.
@@nattokami9598 His point about timelines is incorrect, & I do agree that their isn't a massive distinction between the two. However, the comics are the same & his multiversal points are still mostly irrelevant. *The Multiverse as well as* " *Multitime* " (My own name for Multiversal timelines) , Are already undeniably similar, where they even sometimes tend to be both. *For example stuff like Old-Man Logan & Spider-Man 2099* , both are represented as alternate futures for 616. Same histories, different futures, yet both are separate universal spaces. *It's not a MCU specific problem guys* *IT'S A COMICBOOK PROBLEM*
you took the words right out of my mouth with this one. Another thing I think is worth mentioning is in "Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse", Miguel O'Hara mentions Tom Holland's Spider-Man & Doctor Strange, referring to THAT Earth as 199999...
6:32 Not at all though. She's telling Hulk that them going back to take the stones will cause new, alternate timelines that don't have the stones. She IS NOT saying that removing the stones causes the new timeline
Once alternate timelines and universes got introduced I knew things would get messy. I can overlook some issues as long as it dosen't get to egregious and the movies/shows are entertaining
I will say, from what I understood from Loki, multiple timelines/multiverses always existed and were constantly being created, but so long as the events in those universes resulted in the same outcome as Kang wished for, they were considered to be the same timeline. Like, yes, it's a mess and this probably creates more problems than it solves, but honestly it seems like the writers made the rules vague on purpose as to allow multiple explanations to make sense and the shows/movies to still kinda work even when being produced simultaneously. It can be a good or a bad thing depending on who you ask.
Marvel’s failure is why I consider Everything, Everywhere, All at Once my favorite movie. It’s because it goes far more about the many worlds theory in its actual interpretation and does reference that quantum physics is mathematical.
I agree entirely with what you said about the mechanics of the multiverse; it's just so interesting to me how such a big franchise can just miss these details; how hard is it to understand that two things with different names are two other things, timelines and universes and very different.
I think the problem is both the collection of timelines, the collection of Dimensions, and the infinite number of distinct universes, are all called the multiverse by characters despite being functionally different. Doctor Strange in his own movie sees into the other Dimensions in his universe. It's established that sorcerer's can reach into different dimensions, and sometimes actual gateways can be created. Doctor Strange in Infinity War looked into potential timelines. This allowed him to find the 1 that would eventually lead to success. In Endgame they travel through time. The Ancient one explained that by removing the infinity stone, their timeline would be thrown out into darkness, because it's an infinity stone, they kind of need to exist for the universe to function. In their parallel timeline removing the stone would break pretty much everything. Other parallel timelines would be ok, but not the one they were currently in. In Loki timelines were pruned by the TVA/Kang when they diverged too much because of the risk of creating a variant of Kang. Sylvee killing Kang caused irreparable branches in that timeline, creating a Multiverse. These could be much different from the Sacred Timeline. Spiderman No Way Home only affected the timeline, and the reason it reached into those other movies, is because Kang couldn't prune branches in the timeline before they diverged enough. In the Multiverse of Madness they travel between different universes. It's established that only America can freely do this, while other characters can only Dream walk at the most. I don't think it breaks established rules because it's a different thing from what has been happening so far. It's also reasonable to assume that wanda created her kids from her dreams, so not every kid would be from a hex. It's also reasonable to assume that any version of her kids that's close enough to the ones she lost, would have to be in a universe very similar to her own. She wanted her kids, not random kids with the same name and look. That limited her options a ton. I'm not saying it's amazing. No each explanation comes with its own issues. But I really don't think the MCU hasn't made a distinction between these things, so there's no reason to think that the rules governing each thing would apply to others. Dimensions are different, Timelines are different, and Universes are different. All are called the Multiverse. And honestly is that really a problem? What's the difference between a universe incredibly similar to the starting one, and an alternate timeline that branched out recently? What's the difference between a kind of different universe, and an extremely branched timeline? There's an infinite number of both, many are going to end up very similar. I do think writers need to communicate more, and I agree that it's kind of a mess right now. But it's not as bad as you think it is. Except for Morbius, we just have to pretend that it never happened.
the multiverse did exists. the “sacred timeline” was just a prewritten path for the various universes. when kang died and the tva was dismantled, there were no overseers to make sure each universe followed their very specific scripts. that’s why the multiverse plunged into chaos.
Yup, timelines and Universe are completely separate. There is confusion don't get me wrong but they're very much separate. He who remains was in "control" of keeping 1 timeline, by controlling this timeline across every infinite universe this prevents a multiversal war between different kangs from different universe Kevin Fiege confirmed he who remains death allowed for no way home to occur.
How can the TVA be dismantled in the past AFTER Kang dies at the end of time??? The TVA in the past already happened, so Kang could have overseen it while he was alive. Now you'll say the TVA doesn't exist in time, but that is utter BS since everything in the TVA proceeds linearly in time with cause and effect events, all of which would not happen outside the confines of time. This show is nonsense. Don't even attempt to rationalize it (but if you, please let me know how exactly a timeless place is affected *after* an event at the end of time lol)
@@sivad1025 He Who Remains sat outside of time, the door to his pocket dimensional was only HIDDEN at the end of time, the dimension itself wasn't. That aside He Who Remains was the being powerful enough to hold the Sacred Timeline together, through space magic, so when he died that hold broke. Even if He Who Remains had died at the end of time, the multiverse popping back into place is an even outside of time, time only exists within a universe.
Here’s how I rationalize it: It’s a multiverse - so infinite universes, and infinite universes similar to one another or parallel universes. In Loki, they reference the “Sacred Timeline”, in which the TVA enforces the timeline for that universe. My guess is that a higher power - whether it be Kang or a stronger force (not that familiar with the comics haha) - has the power to destroy other universes until only parallel universes with almost identical timelines remain. The TVA’s reach would span across those universes to enforce the sacred timeline to make sure that each universe runs parallel to one another. In Endgame, I don’t think that they were traveling through time, but between parallel universes with almost identical timelines - which is why their original timeline/past is unaffected when they return. The TVA is fallible, and there’s a lot of universes to cover, so I would think the standard is as long as the universe’s timeline runs “relatively” parallel to one another, then it’s fine to have some variance. And how much variance that is allowed between universes would be up to Kang/TVA/Higher Power (or writer tbh). So Sylvie opens up the multiverse (again, as it seems that Kang’s efforts with the TVA were to limit the chaos caused from a previous multiverse war), expanding it to include universes with timelines that are vastly different then the sacred timeline. Idk maybe that’s contradictory to what’s been established but that’s how I view it.
The sacred timeline is simply just any timeline that results in another Kang, the TVA is essentially a self replicating machine made by He Who Remains whose only function is to predict and prevent any event leading to Kang.
Just to chime in about the "three Peters issue". It's only really an issue if they are all somehow meant to be literal variants of *our* Peter. Now, that might be a confusing sentence for some: "Of course they are variants of our Peter! They are Peter Parker & they're Spider-Man!" However, let's think about how we're defining variant here, because there's actually two definitions. There are literal variants who are literal variations of your life, spinning off from decisions that you have personally made. And then there are coincidental variants, who share your name & many details of your life, but if you look back through both of your histories, there was no definitive split point. You just coincidentally share a name & history with this person, and whatever timeline split occurred, happened way before either of you were born. The two other Peters are likely the second variety of variant; They have zero shared history between them, had radically different lives on substantially different versions of Earth & the fact that they are all different ages means that there's no singular event that could have resulted in these three Peters being split from one another. This might seem like it supports the idea of there being a problem, but only if we don't follow this train of thought to its natural conclusion. Remember, the timeline-split model of the multiverse isn't limited to the characters we have seen in the MCU. The universe existed billions of years before Tony Stark was even an itch in his father's nuts, and thus, we have timeline splits going as far back as the big bang (maybe even earlier), so the multiverse doesn't simply represent diverging paths in the personal histories of the characters we've observed, but instead, every possible version of reality resulting from any possible divergence stretching back to the beginning of the universe. Thus, we have our explanation for why it's sometimes the same actor & sometimes a different one. Using the Spider-Man example, any future variant with Tom Holland's face likely diverged from the MCU's version of Spider-Man. Meanwhile, Spider-Men with different actors, like Andrew or Tobey, came about in a timeline\universe that split off from the MCU WAAAAAY before any of them were even born, and their shared life, history & identity are purely coincidental. If even a single Peter Parker Spider-Man can exist, it therefore follows that in an infinite multiverse with infinitely diverging timelines stretching back to the beginning of time that every possible version of Peter Parker Spider-Man can & does exist. If you can imagine a version of Peter, no matter how ludicrous, they exist. A lot of them will be variants of the Tom Holland Spider-Man, but there will be universes where a Peter Parker was born earlier & had these foundational events occur earlier as well, and that Spider-Man in turn will have an uncountable number of variants of his own. Not even just referring to Andrew or Tobey at this point, there could be a version of history that enabled a Peter Parker Spider-Man to exist in WWII or in medieval times. There could even be a version of Peter Parker Spider-Man who has powers & an aesthetic similar to The Atom, and that's because the words for "shrink" & "spider" are swapped in that universe. At that point, they are definitely not variants of our Spider-Man, but they are still valid in the split-timeline multiverse model, as it is entirely possible for someone called Peter Parker to become Spider-Man at any point in time, if that universe's version of history allows it. In the infinite multiverse, there is no such thing as "too coincidental". It's quite the rabbit hole to jump down, the more you think about it. And even if they were all born at the same time & existed in a fundamentally similar reality, all it would take is a different sperm or a different egg to create a different looking Spider-Man, so even ignoring the larger implications of a timeline-split multiverse, differences in appearance are still entirely explainable through very simple means. And of course, this isn't binary. There could be a non-MCU variant of Spider-Man that still looks like Tom Holland, because again, the infinite multiverse dividing from infinite timelines allows for all possible outcomes. It's not even a case of "all things are possible to happen in the multiverse", but rather, " In the multiverse, all possible things *have* happened". All people have had all faces on all planets in all time periods, somewhere out there. To put it more simply: Variations of the MCU timeline = Same Actor. Timelines that radically diverged far earlier on, but coincidentally still developed a Peter Parker Spider-Man = Different actor. Timelines that radically diverged far earlier on, but coincidentally still developed a Peter Parker Spider-Man, but also coincidentally got the same face as Tom Holland = Same actor And this covers the Evan Peters thing as well. In one universe, that face belonged to Quicksilver & in the MCU, it belonged to some dude named "Bohner" who coincidentally got mind controlled into pretending to be Quicksilver for some fucking reason. Honestly, the Evan Peters thing is more needlessly contrived than it is downright broken (as far as the use of his face goes, that is). This also covers the many wacky universes in Multiverse of Madness, like the paint, cartoon or blocks universe; those splits likely occurred during the Big Bang, where the fundamental rules of reality could have gone in many fundamentally different directions, and thus, all variations of the laws of physics came into existence all at once in a functionally infinite number of universes that then began diverging into their own variations within their own frameworks. If you want to *really* get nuts, Tom Holland himself could be argued to be a person who coincidentally got the same face as the Spider-Man from the MCU & coincidentally got to play that version of the character in several films, which by this logic, means that all works of fiction are actually non-fiction & all works of fiction involving actors are actually unintentional re-enactments. Admittedly, this is deeply confusing to explain without visual aids, but I hope the general idea has been communicated here. If divergences in the timeline began at The Big Bang, than all possible realities can exist, and not just the ones directly spinning off from the events of the MCU, and any similarities to the characters in the MCU & their variants are more coincidental than downright broken. The MCU Multiverse is still hopelessly broken in many other ways, though. Just wanted to explore this particular wrinkle.
This makes a lot of sense, although, if the MCU is using the timeline = multiverse formula, it means that there are infinite America Chavez, because every possible thing that could’ve happened in her life, really did happen in alternative timelines, therefore diferent universes. The only way I can see this working with America existing as the only beign on the multiverse, is if multiverse and timeline were diferente concepts, we would have infinite timelines within each infinite universe. You just need to apply a rule, like, every timeline on every universe has an especific number and you can only travel to other universes that have the same timeline number, transporting you to that timeline on another universe (not necessarily the same events occurring, but like, the same number, as in, every branch that happens has a number, so you can only travel to the branchs on the other universes that somehow have the same number - wich is totally possible considering the infinitiness of the situation) It would explain why there’s only one America Chavez, cause, for exemple, America that appears on timeline “565” (random number) on MoM can only travel and interact into timeline “565” of another universes. Therefore, even though there are infinite Americas, due to timeline branching, they would never interact and never exist to each other (only to the TVA, cause they can travel through timelines). Anyway, that was me trying to fix one of the millions of problems on the MCU multiverse. Sorry if this got a little confusing, I had a hard time trying to put these ideas into words
@@barbaramorais9351 ik theres only one america in the comics but that multiverse has like authorities with actual power (ie the one above all and ppl like them not some dude like kang)
honestly I completely agree, just having different universes instead of small decisions making different timelines would make this whole thing wayyyyyyy less confusing
My theory is that the “scared timeline” is the entirety of the multiverse just every universe is the same. When sylvie kills “he who remains” that’s when each universe begins to deviate and it’s not just the sacred timeline it’s a full on multiverse Disregarding all the plot holes I chose to believe this. but I’m still confused on how they deviate when sylvie kills “ he who remains” but maybe paradox or loop?
@@elitegamer9310 Agreed! I am glad people are catching up on the tomfoolery of MCU and speaking about it else it is really hard to go against Marvel fan boys. Hope they use multiverse as a tool very very sparingly as possible going forward.
Wait the Ancient One said new timelines are "ONLY" created by infinity stones being removed? I missed that. Also, I think the point she made about the Time Stone needing to be returned is only because she is self assured (incorrectly hopefully as it no longer exists in the main timeline) that they are doomed without it, not that their reality will destabilize or something. Is it specifically explained that old man Cap lived out his life in the main timeline? I assumed that he lived it out in a branch timeline and came back to a pinpoint location to return the shield. I don't think it's specified that the only way back to the main timeline is the specific gate left through. What's not to say he conspired with Hank (who developed the baseline of the tech and could easily figure it out) to have him returned through the gate the day before so he could execute the plan and told Bucky beforehand, which would explain why he wasn't surprised in the slightest. I'm not gonna dispute Loki making things a bit too much, but the way I see the "pruning" system is more that there are ACCEPTABLE timelines which Kang allows and destabilizing timelines that blow up his system. His watch over the multiverse is only aimed at preventing the multiversal war, not eliminating every single timeline. Ultimately he just wants to maintain reality, not to be a power hungry tyrant. It is definitely too messy to be explainable or realistically believable, which is where you just have to shrug and just attribute it to "comic book logic". The America point is an interesting one, that she must be some sort of special being and have a singular destiny and no free will. Who knows, perhaps she has some hidden origin explaining how she can not create branches. Wanda was not the good guy at the end of the show, it's a just a doorway to her corruption. Just because Monica comforts her a bit doesn't make her a hero. Wanda is a character that has always been self centered with a shade of good heartedness, which does not make someone "good" aligned. She is neutral as all hell. Wanda is only seeing those alternate versions of herself through the Darkhold. It is a evil sentient book, why in the hell would it allow her to see realities where Billy and Tommy don't exist or a reality where they were born and Wanda died so she could slip right in? The book is the villain, seems pretty cut and dry to me. I mean, it's just nit picking all the nit picking but like, this is just comic books and as with reading them my entire life, they are bizarre and you gotta accept some of the mess along with the good stuff.
Yes exactly, what Monica said at the end was just because she could relate to her pain and wasn't making her a hero. And yes she wasn't exactly good by the end, but didn't wanted to learn more about her powers so she could control them, but she still had the loss of Billy and Tommy at heart. Darkhold manipulated that vulnerable state of her
11:00 This part is so goofy because there's a really simple, basic explanation for this that's become a very popular fan theory about how it all actually works, which is that the TVA doesn't actually prune _all_ timelines and _all_ realities except for one - they only prune timelines that could, through insane butterfly effect shenanigans, somehow lead to another Kang (or presumably another multiverse conqueror) coming into existence. All of the "if you're one minute late to work you get pruned" stuff is part of the lie to hide Kang being behind it all. That makes Fem Loki hiding in different apocalypses make way more sense, since all of her actions are erased before anything she does could lead to another Kang coming into existence, so the TVA can never detect her since their equipment can only see timelines that need to be pruned to prevent the multiverse war. If Marvel had thought things through even slightly, they could've come up with some other explanation like this and prevented all of this confusion (and if it's later stated this _is_ how it all works, then Loki still fails for never bringing it up or explaining it
From my understanding the dark dimension doesn’t work on a universal scale as it’s outside of that, it would be more like for all the infinite universes there’s just the one dark dimension with dormammu trying to eventually control it all.
Why does everyone think that The Ancient One explains the timeline only branching with the infinity stones? She uses the stones as an example. Remove the time stone and their "chief weapon against the forces of darkness" is gone, leaving them defenceless in that new branch. Banner then talks about putting the stone back, which is visualized as removing the branch, but explained as making it so that branch's future continues the same as the Banner's timeline already did. It's the "Sacred Timeline" view from Loki, where there are, in fact, many many timelines that all follow a similar path, with the branches pruned off. That's not to say that this video doesn't make some good points about the nature of the multiverse being... messy (to put it politely), but I keep hearing this thing about The Ancient One stating a different set of rules, but she doesn't.
I feel like people also misunderstood the end of Loki, kang explain that he isolated the MCU timeline from the rest of the multiverse, the TVA exist to prevent the MCU Timeline from branching again within the isolated space where it exist. The multiverse wasn't "created" when they killed kang, the multiverse always existed. This also explain why dr strange knows about the multiverse but in his own words " it's something we know frighteningly little"
@@naegling it was heavily implied that he (with the help of Alioth) wiped out all the other timelines. But I feel the "alternate timelines" version of the multiverse exists in tandem with "alternate dimensions" which are different. For example, I don't think each timeline has its own Dark Dimension, as time doesn't exist there, so "alternate timelines" would make no sense there. The Ancient One's "vast multiverse" was mostly referring to these other dimensions more than branching timelines (but she's obviously aware of that possibility too as seen in endgame)
The common misunderstand of what the Ancient One said in EndGame is confusing to me as well. Its really easy to check exactly what the Ancient One says in the movie, and it isn't complicated or contradicting of Hulk's explanation. Neither is Captain America showing up on a bench instead of via the time machine he left with. We don't know exactly how Elderly Captain America gets there, but missing information isn't a plot hole.
Here's the thing: are the general movie audiences capable of grasping the distinction between a multiverse and alternate timelines? It's possible for an alternate timeline to become an established alternate universe after all, look at Age of Apocalypse and 2099, and Gaiman's 1406. Generally alternate timelines don't last, but they can become persistent, basically based on their popularity with readers. And we're dealing with a universe that can become a whole other universe at the drop of a hat, through the actions of just one person, like House of M. This is why I've always preferred DC's cosmology, it's been very consistent over the years, while Marvel tends to just make up new stuff all the time for convenience, so it's actually fitting that the MCU is in the state it is.
The multiverse is literally a concept that’s been so awfully used and managed, that DC has had to reset it like 6 times. The entire concept of a multiverse in my opinion is just not good for these types of stories, due to the sheer amount of implications.
@@irvs5922 DC reset but not necessarily because of anything pertaining to the stories that caused these resets. It's almost always to bring in new readers. The problem DC has is that nowadays we've had wayyy too many events dealing with the multiverse these last couple of years and they always shake up the continuity in bad ways. Before N52 there would be multiverse stories every couple of years Crisis on Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Final Crisis, etc. but ever since Flashpoint(thanks Barry) we've had like 10 events dealing with the multiverse. Doomsday clock, Forever Evil, Convergence, Future's End.
The audience doesn't have to understand it for it to make sense. Better Call Saul mentions laws that no one cares about, but they put in the effort to actually cite the correct legislation. The point is, the audience doesn't have to understand every facet of a show so long at it's internally consistent and thus critic-proof. Because when the writers are lazy, it opens up glaring holes for intelligent viewers who want to make sense of what they're watching
@@sivad1025 I tend to agree, but i don't think legal practice is a good analogy, because that in particular doesn't really matter for having a great scene or story. I watch Legal Eagle, and it's fun to see how they score on legal accuracy., but it never matters if A Few Good Men or A Time To Kill aren't legally accurate, it's the emotions and the characters that sell the story. The law is only ever a plot framework. Now how the universe and superhero physics work is different, it is essential the audience understand the film's rules and that they be consistent, so they can do the math on the fly and know what it means that now Cap can wield mjolnir, for example, without the film stopping to explain it.
@@fusionspace175 I only use that as a reference because Bettet Call Saul is one of the most nitpick-proof shows I've ever seen. The point is that details can be right even if the average viewer doesn't care which does apply to time travel. I disagree that time travel isn't merely a framework. Everything Everwhere All at Once is fairly vague (and, imo, vague to a fault) on its rules, but it seems consistent. That makes it much more palatable than the MCU and it didn't need to sit down and explain everything
I think the Armageddon hiding actually works: The variants that get abducted by the TVA are individuals that will greatly sway how the universe and that timeline proceed in the future, not just every little change that happens. Some changes don’t actually have a greater butterfly effect impact, and Kang only targets those that change history significantly. So going to Armageddon events actually would work because, yes, the locals may run in a different direction or hide somewhere different, the volcano still erupts and they still die, and archeologists finding their remains in a slightly different place doesn’t actually change anything major, at least in Kang’s great plan/sacred timeline. Kang wants certain major events (absolute points) to take place, so that in the end the multiverse is never discovered or messed with like it’s done before. And me changing what cereal I eat doesn’t mean that Spider-Man is never born. I understand that the multiverse is theorized to include every little decision, but that’s why even in Loki the sacred timeline isn’t really a super straight and narrow line, it is multiple threads that twist differently, but ultimately follow the same path Also to address the whole Sylphie starting the multiverse: You aren’t understanding that the multiverse DID exist before Sylphie killed Kang, but Kang condensed it into the sacred timeline it is now. So the concept of the multiverse still exists back then during the first Dr Strange movie. All Sylphie does is bring it back. Now when I rewatched the first Strange movie in preparation for MOM, I was shocked too to see the Ancient One talk and send Strange on that acid trip. But it would make sense for the Sorcerer Supreme to be aware of the concept. Also I would like to believe she showed Strange multiple dimensions on that trip, which is very different from universes, as they are other planes of reality within a universe. Her referring to them as universes is what I believe is the error in writing, and that’s because they simply hadn’t thought far enough ahead. Let me say first that all of these explanations are my own I guess head canon, and I understand that this may not be what the writers actually intended. I’m just doing my best to try and make sense of it because I too am a very critical person when watching stuff and it annoys me when they contradict themselves. Now let me address your concerns about MOM. With America Chavez, I really have nothing other than the fact that maybe she one of the few multiversal beings that there are only one of because of their manipulation of the multiverse. Not sure because not familiar with her character in the comics. So with those beings let’s just say whatever they do will never impact and create a new universe, or else she would be causing incursions left and right. With Strange being able to mess with universes as shown in No Way Home, my only answer is that the spell going haywire wasn’t really their fault and before if they did something crazy the TVA would’ve just stopped them, but since they are potentially gone, or at least not performing their same duties, the multiverse is a lot more unstable and spells that would’ve usually been ok are now a lot more dangerous. To explain the different appearances of the same character, the parents and ancestors of the character just inherited different genes and so the change in timeline that would’ve created their universe is the change in genes inherited far in the past
I would like to point out that each universe is said to be identical except for only one event or choice happening differently. However, it seems that there is quite a few points of differences among the universes.
@@jaideepshekhar4621 well if they do say something like that, then that’s on them and they’re wrong again cuz no way can they pass that off. I think it’s supposed to be that each universe WAS identical to each other till a certain point, but then from that change or nexus it follows it’s own path, and that could still be close to the original or just goes very crazily different like the Spider-Man movies all being very different. This line of thinking supports their explanation of different timelines being different universes.
I think for the Loki timeline issue, the TVA is only preventing timelines that can create other Kangs, so an armagedon would always end that world which wouldn't affect the life of another Kang
To explain this stuff, I use the Dark Dimension and the Mojoverse as my examples. The Dark Dimension is one per universe, where the Mojoverse is one across the Multiverse.
Alright so... I'll be trying to explain how I think the Multiverse works. The problem isn't that this Multiverse cannot make sense with everything set up so far, just that the movies refuse to explain it. (Which is obviously because Marvel has not bothered to actually make any definite rules themselves) So here's my personal take on it all: The Multiverse comes from the fact that infinite universes exist by themselves. Every Universe can either be very similar to the 616 Universe or completely different. At any point in a universe, something can happen differently from how we saw it in the MCU, creating infinite possibilities in the Multiverse. I believe that separate timelines are the same thing as separate universes. The only difference is, that timelines are only created when something is changed within one universe and aren't created naturally. By that I mean, that one character in one universe isn't taking every possible action every moment, creating a new timeline for every choice, but instead they take just one singular action. Each person does one thing. That's it. When someone travels through time (like in Endgame) or to a point in another universe (like in Loki) new timelines are created, but other than that, every universe only has the one timeline. In Endgame, the Ancient One isn't saying that removing an Infinity Stone is the only thing that can create a new timeline. Removing one would just have a very big effect on how things play out in that timeline. For example, the Time -Stone is needed to defeat Dormammu, so if it's gone before that, the Dark Dimension would take over that universe. The "Sacred Timeline" seems to not just be one universe, but a collection of similar universes. If a universe is similar enough to the MCU we know, then it's a part of the Sacred Timeline. If a universe diverges too much from that, then it's pruned by the TVA. This would also make it so the multiverse did exist before Loki, it just wasn't as "diverse" before. Every timeline was relatively similar to Universe 616, but there were still a basically infinite amount of them. This also explains how characters can hide in disasters in Loki. If everything you do will have no lasting impact, then the new timeline you are creating won't diverge too much from the original universe. This means that the new timeline is still part of the larger Sacred Timeline and thus will not be pruned by the TVA. I believe Kang / the TVA is monitoring the Multiverse via technology Kang invented. It's probably not because Kang is omnipotent or anything like that. Kang also probably doesn't come from a Universe similar to Universe 616, but a completely different one. This is because otherwise, there would still be multiple Kangs, who then all discover the multiverse on the Sacred Timeline. This would also make sense, since Reed Richards doesn't exist in the main MCU universe as far as we know. Now onto Variants. This was explained reasonably well in Loki in my opinion, but I'll explain it again here. Variants are separate versions of the same person in different universes. They can look the same or different, as long as they're still considered the same person, just from different universes. This makes it so the 3 Spider-Men can all look different. Most of the Lokis in Loki also looked different. Most people have a basically infinite number of Variants, since basically infinite universes exist. America Chavez is unique however, because there's only one of her. She has no Variants. Her existing in multiple timelines isn't a problem either, since there's only one. There's one America Chavez who always makes one specific decision. That's why there's just one of her. When it comes to how time travel and stuff works with her... No idea. Honestly don't know. Maybe she just wouldn't be in the newly created timeline? Maybe that would create a second version of her and the two could meet? I really have no way of knowing. Also, the thing about America being the only being that can open portals between universes: I assume that she's the only mortal, who has the ability by herself without any outside assistance. Wanda and Strange use Magic and Sorcery respectively, while the Watcher doesn't count as a mortal. That's how I'd explain it at least. There's also a few other random rules set up in different shows and movies. For example, in What If? we learn that there are specific points in every universe that cannot be changed when creating a branching timeline. So I don't think the problem with the MCU Multiverse is that it contradicts itself, but that there isn't any single set of rules for the writers to follow. Every one of them probably has their own headcanon on how it all ties together, like I do, which could all technically work. However, the longer this goes on, the bigger this mess will become, until there isn't any semblance of a consistent Multiverse left. What Marvel really has to do is lay down the ground rules for how all of this works and explain it to the audience in a way that makes sense. Until that happens, it will continue to be a very big problem. I think that covers everything. If you have any questions about or there's anything that contradicts my explanation, feel free to reply with them I guess.
What you have wrong is in what if. The reason they have fixed points you can’t chang is because they are a paradox. Dr strange couldn’t ever save her as the moment she is saved he would no longer exist to save her. It follows the same logic of end game time travel. 1: you can travel back in time(the time stone) by reversing it( only one person of you exist 2: you can travel back in time and save her, but it wouldn’t be your timeline( two of you exist)
I have a question. You said, "Kang also probably doesn't come from a Universe similar to Universe 616, but a completely different one. This is because otherwise, there would still be multiple Kangs, who then all discover the multiverse on the Sacred Timeline. This would also make sense, since Reed Richards doesn't exist in the main MCU universe as far as we know." Why would there only be multiple Kangs if he comes from a "similar" universe as 616? Also by "multiple Kangs" do you mean Kangs within the Multiverse or within the particular Universe he comes from? How does this tie in with Reed Richards. What makes him exist in the 818 Universe (or whatever that world was called in the 2nd Dr Strange movie) and not the MCU Universe .If it is because of some vastly different timeline event mumbo jumbo, why were neither of these two "pruned" or at the very least flagged?
@@justzaya In Loki, the whole point behind pruning timelines which diverge from the Sacred Timeline, is to prevent multiple Kangs from discovering the multiverse. This would start another multiversal war. (As Kang explains at the end of Loki Season 1) I'm assuming the "Sacred Timeline" consists of multiple similar timelines (as explained in my original comment). This would however lead to multiple Kangs across the multiverse, thus contradicting the TVA's whole point for existing. The only way to fix this problem, is to say that there is not a single Kang anywhere on the Sacred Timeline. My point about Reed Richards is because of the comics. In the comics, Kang is a defendant of Reed Richards, so if Reed didn't exist on a timeline, then Kang couldn't exist there either. Also, after Loki there can be timelines that are completely different from the 616 universe. This is because at the end of Loki Season 1, the Sacred Timeline diverges into infinite different timelines.
@@_KingoftheEnd thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate your way of explaining it, but unfortunately the merging of multiverses and timelines as a single concept leaves me with more questions than any other theory so I don't wanna go on and on with all my other questions. I really hope Marvel is able to commit to one theory and be explicit about it so there's less confusion
My theory regarding Timelines vs. Universes is that the characters like Kang that travel the timelines know that the timelines exist, but they haven't had any experiences with the actual multiverse to know that that also exists. Therefore, they assume that the timelines are the multiverse. If you notice, we haven't actually seen anyone such as doctor strange who knows about the existence of both (We know he could see timelines bc he looked at timelines in infinity war) say that timelines and universes are the same thing. Also, we have never seen a character who has seen the multiverse but not timelines call a universe a timeline. So it seems to make sense that calling timelines universes is just an act of ignorance. (The writers might also be ignorant too).
While i do agree that it’s stupid, that is how it works and has worked forever in the comics. The only real exceptions are alternate universes in different time periods like Marvel Noir for example. My biggest issue with the MCU is them establishing the main mcu timeline as the 616 universe, basically creating a whole new multiverse from the comics, making things even more convoluted.
Exactly, and even Spider-Verse was guilty of this (though they referred to 616 as where Peter B Parker comes from - still wrong though). It’s a lucky coincidence that Earth-838 also isn’t an existing universe. There’s even an interview with Iman Vellani (Ms. Marvel’s actress) where she says she has constant fandom arguments with Kevin Feige over the fact that the MCU is supposed to be Earth-199999. In retrospect, we can hopefully chalk the Earth-616 thing to what the people of 838 refer to the MCU as after they discovered it.
@@Gemnist98 True. I would have liked for the MCU to be 199999 that, way we could have the comic universe be canon with the mcu and the mcu be canon with the comics. However this can still be possible. Remember in the comics that the universe resets every trillion years with the big bang (which is how Galactus is born. Normal guy who found a way to survive past that point). So they could excuse it as the universe prior. Its my head canon anyway.
@@citizenvulpes4562 No shit, its been failing on and off for 100 years. Its failing because no one reads, not because of its stories, a second grader would know that.
So, I might be missing something, but I don't actually think that it's ever implied that *every* decision or change creates a branch in the timeline. It's stated that the TVA steps in when someone "steps off their path", and the animations shows a branch created. And while it mentions that the triggering event could be as small as showing up late, that doesn't necessarily mean that *anyone* showing up late would be enough to create a branch. I took this to mean that, *even* a change that small *might* cause the creation of a new timeline. So, technically, there would still be *some* risk of creating a branch by messing around in Vesuvius. But the odds are way lower. I think the CGI they use to represent the sacred timeline helps represent this. It's not a single line, everywhere you look there are threads that break off momentarily, and then rejoin the bulk. Timelines that are so close to the original that there's no real difference between them. New universes are formed when a change is made that would, in some way, significantly alter the flow of time, even if the event that causes that change is really tiny. That also helps to waive away some of the weirdness in Endgame. Everything that happened was on sort of... loops and whorls in the main timeline. They (supposedly) managed to keep the timeline mostly consistent, with the TVA stepping in to clean up any unwanted timelines (like the one where Loki escapes). The whole explanation of branching universes from the Ancient One is still pretty contradictory, so I don't really know how to solve that one. As for Strange, I don't think this necessarily contradicted anything, when seen up there. America Chavez is unique across the multiverse because things she's involved in does not seem to create branching timelines, as part of her powers. So while she can hop from timeline to timeline easily, she never duplicates. Same reason Scarlet Witch couldn't necessarily just jump into the next reality over, where she won, and get her kids. The way you describe it, the multiverse would be so vast as to be ultimately meaningless. Every instant an infinite number of new multiverses would be spawning. But that's not what we're shown in *Loki*. Instead, we're shown a timeline that only branches occasionally. Otherwise, the TVA could never hope to maintain a single timeline. Every instant a branching timeline is allowed to exist, it would be spawning a nearly infinite number more.
It is implied that anything against the TVA’s plan for the person is what causes another multiverse to exist, anything at all. Also the Chavez stuff makes sense because if other multiverses branch off from one multiverse then she should be in all
the video maker didn't understand loki at all. Branches are only created or pruned if it stops Kangs plan from taking place. There are also seperate universes that follow one timeline which is clearly explained in loki. His entire confusion on Loki ruins the rest of his points for the rest of the video.
@@Xlore127 No he understands Loki well enough, you are just adding things that the show never said. It is stated that a path has already been created for the flow of time and if you do ANYTHING different from what you are meant to do according to the created path then you will be removed and the timeline pruned There are also no separate universes in Loki. The entire point of the show is to make sure that only one universe keeps existing.
@@Microme955 Kang is the one that states that he keeps all things on the path so the moment when loki and sylvie reach him is allowed to happen. and its clearly shown there are other universes because they show the different loki variations. The loki variations wouldn't exist without other universes, but they can all exist on the same timeline, which the show states. timeline = all universes follow same events. Universe = variations of other universes that follow the same events. Syvlie was only pruned when she attempted to do good things and not be mischievous. If variation universes weren't allowed she wouldve been pruned at birth for being a girl and not when she grew older. If you watch endgame and loki all of this is clearly shown and mentioned through both.
@@Xlore127 Kang does keep things on the path and once you do anything other than what you are meant to do in the path he created then you are taken and the new timeline you created gets pruned. The existence of other Lokis does not prove the existence of other universes, it’s just a plot hole. It is never mentioned that there are multiple universes and then so many Lokis just show up and we are now expected to just accept that they are from other universes? That’s crap
Universes exist separate from each other. Timelines exist (or not, depending on their respective TVA) within each separate universe. So, there's a paint people TVA that might prevent paint people from creating alternate paint universe timelines, but that doesn't affect the rest of the non-paint people universes. At least that's what I always gathered. It does need clarification from Marvel.
"Universes exist separate from each other." Why would they? "Timelines exist (or not, depending on their respective TVA) within each separate universe." Again... why would they? Timelines could easily cross "It does need clarification from Marvel." Probably won't get one... just consume product then get excited for next product
Honestly one thing MCU producers need to do is read something like Flashpoint with the DC comics. Even though they haven’t really managed a live action adaptation, the whole story of flashpoint gives so many possibilities that they could incorporate with Peter alone, like what if he went to a universe where he never met Stark or hell even if Uncle Ben never died. As much as I adored seeing Tobey and Andrew again, I think that would route could’ve helped make the multiverse less of a jumbled mess that you just have to try to forget the mechanics of.
But the problem I have with hulks explanation is that when you go back to the future after you create a branch timeline, you would travel into the future of that new timeline.
The problem is that they’ve confused it. DC’s multiverse is so much more simple and easy to follow because they are consistent. Marvel had alternate timelines in Loki & Avengers Endgame, but had alternate universes in No Way Home & Multiverse of Madness. The problem is that they had Loki explain them as the same thing when they aren’t. Multiverse is multiple universes with different changes from a main universe. This could be a universe with a near exact history to 616 that is completely changed by a timeline change. Or it could be completely different like the Spider-Men universes are. Alternate timelines are alternate realities created by changes in the timeline that are isolated to that universe. They aren’t the same, but Marvel aren’t being consistent with what does and doesn’t make up the Multiverse and how time travel works.
Now you will have to explain why are they not the same. What distinguishes a universe from another other than the events happening in it? If i have 2 different universes with the all the exact same events happening except at one point when something happens differently, causing a cascade of events that thousands and billions of years later that eventually leads to lets say one of them being taken over by snakes and the other by frogs. How will you have labelled the 2 universes before that first change in events happened when they are exactly the same down to the position of the atoms? Im trying to describe how alternate timelines and alternate universes all mean the same thing because as far as we know, our universe started from an infinitely small point to which they can (theoritically) be called the same, therefore all universes no matter how different it eventually gets an infinite time later, all started as the same universe, and with each possible outcome of events taking place, exists our so called perception of infinite of infinite numbers of alternate timelines/universe.
@@jackinmydreeeam3142 The difference is frequencies. Different universes have different frequencies. That's pretty much all they have to say for fans to accept it. And that a universe being changed via time travel to end up exactly like another universe could explain convergences.
@@two4328 You can check this guy out, he does a pretty great job at explaining how marvels interpretation of their multiverses work> ruclips.net/video/MAt0xpQe934/видео.html
Multiverses are fiction, end of story. Fiction can be anything you want, trying to apply physics to fiction is like trying to explain how Superman can physically exist without breaking conservation of energy.
I dont think the multiverse was created when slyvie killed kang. I think it was always there, and the “sacred timeline” meant every universe followed their written path. So the universes lived in harmony and ignorance by not exactly interacting with each other. Then when sylvie killed kang, it allowed them to break into each other
Loki makes a lot more sense when you realise it’s a show about making a TV show, with time travel and dimension hopping treated as equivalent because they are more or less identical writing tropes to allow for plot inconsistencies. Notice, for example, when Loki is being judged (or pitched) for his suitability as a TVA agent (or main character of a TV show) he’s presented with a literal script of all his dialogue, reminding us of how a TV show begins. Owen Wilson is the show runner. The TVA agents are editors who expunge false directions for the plot.
8:01 - YES, exactly. This would have fixed the ending. The issue came down to the writers and the directors being at odds with the time travel mechanics (I read this in an article somewhere a long time ago). The writers wanted to give Steve a happy ending, and make him the husband Peggy had all along in the MCU. The idea is that old man cap always existed in the MCU (back to the future rules of time travel). So, its not that he didn't change anything, it's that he was always supposed to be here. He was destined to live with Peggy. That's why they never tell us who Peggy's husband was in any of the other movies. The writers wanted that mystery guy to be Steve all along. This was absolutely asinine and I hated this ending because it broke its own rules because it wanted that payoff. Good point about the Armageddon rule in Loki creating new universes anyway, I never noticed this point. 14:17 - No. The multiverse always existed, even with Kang's TVA. What Kang was doing was he was pruning timelines he didn't like. The timelines he did like, he allowed, and that formed the multiverse. By Sylvie killing Kang at the end, it only expanded the multiverse. 23:21 - No. In MOM, they say that dreams are previews into other universes. So, we can make the connection that the only reason our Wanda conjured the kids the way they looked is because she had dreamed about 838 Wanda and saw the love she had. Its not that Billy and Tommy are all magic creations. We can't just assume they are because we don't how how they are created. But ye, good point on why she just can't make a hex around an uninhabited plot of land and then go nutz. 26:17 - Wow. I totally forgot Mysterio joked about our Earth being 616. That's hilarious. 28:40 - Hahaha. Random Better Call Saul reference, I can dig it. I can side with you that Phase 4 has been shite in its entirety. I kind of like Far From home, especially Mysterio and the mind fucks, but I HAAATED No Way Home. The fan service and call backs were lackluster, the multiverse rules of the spell that caused all the chaos made no sense and was inconsistent (especially the spell that fixed everything, so what happens now? Do everyone everywhere in all universes forget that Peter was Spider-Man?).
7:00 My thoughts on what the ancient one was saying that removing the infinity stones would create a dark timeline. because removing the time stone for example would have stopped Doctor Strange from defeating Dormamu. Not that removing the stone was the only way to create a new timeline.
Honestly this feels like the problems in the comics. I mean when Marvel went near bankrupt a few years ago they did the thing where the Multiverse temporarily died in the comics. When that happened there were other comic stories that ended there. Don’t think that’s meant to mean anything for the movies I just find that funny
Kang SEPARATED the sacred timelines from the rest of the Multiverse. He didn't destroy the Multiverse. He merely separated his sacred timelines from it and hid them. So when he died, everything became exposed and then branched with the rest of the Multiverse leading to characters now being able to jump from one universe to another. Before his death, everything that happened was in the same universe, but different timelines because the sacred "timeline" is, as u could see in Loki, a bundle of timelines, not just one.
Arrowverse does alternate universes pretty well. Although Loki is quite "He who remains" Made sure that All Alternate universes have the same timeline, he made sure all versions of loki are choked to death by Thanos.
I really agree, the thing that made the mcu special was it’s consistency. It wasn’t perfect but just a few continuity mistakes between so many movies is impressively low. And the lack of that painstaking detail in phase 4 was noticeable even if I didn’t know I knew it. I couldn’t put my finger on it but all these movies felt hollow somehow and I think that’s it.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the MCU calling itself the 616 universe means that the comics will eventually fold it self into being about the MCU Universe through a secret wars type event, so as to add brand synergy.
In my personal defense of the whole actions in armageddon events not branching off thing I think the reason is because it never gets the opportunity TO branch off. Yes, Loki being there and freeing those goats caused people to do different things which could, in theory, cause a butterfly effect. But it can't because it has no chance to. All the people there die and no there is no continuing point after that to create a branching timeline which is why the TVA were never alerted. Or at least that's how I see it. But overall great vid!
@@herb4243 Exactly! Different actions occurring doesn't branch off onto another timeline if they have no knock-on effects and remain completely isolated
It is crazy how someone wrote multiple drafts of a video without ever actually looking into what they're attacking. If the planet was going to blow up tomorrow with no survivors, whether or not I burn my house down would have no effect on the rest of the universe, it only could of that action had the ability to indirectly leave this planet.
I would argue that alternate universes could just be timelines with very wide branches. So one timeline could look very different from an other but still share a distant origin point. Also I interpreted Loki's "Sacred Timeline" as a multiverse being actively constrained to a consistent list of events that still had noticeable differences here and there.
the thing is even in Marvel comics, this is how their multiverse operates, an example is Days of Future's Past is an alternate timeline that evolved into it's own universe. Also the Marvel Multiverse has been super complex and convoluted as a single universe could be considered a multiverse in itself depending on your definition as like the main comic universe is made up of multiple planes an realms some which are universe in size which won't be effected by time travel in deep space. basically marvel use branching universe theory more so than linear universe theory which stuff like Back to the Future uses.
Exactly. Like he is confused about alternate timelines and ignores dimensions as part of the multiverse, when the marvel multiverse has included those for decades. Or being surprised that there are different looking variants of the same character, when it’s established earlier how that’s the case.
Yeah I always loved how in "Loki" the infinity stones are paper weights and its known the they are useless outside their universe yet in Disneys Marvels "What If" series Ultron was jumping from universe to universe with the same infinity stones using them and not losing his powers.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
Forever the funniest misunderstanding on one of my videos will be people thinking I hate Spider-Verse because I was trying to throw shade at Morbius. The joke fell flat because I was showing clips of Morbius and failed to take into account that nobody’s seen that movie.
That's amazing.
"nobody’s seen that movie."
Are you sure? I heard it was 200% on rotten tomatoes. Apparently the most movie ever!
When Barry fucks up 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@flookaraz I also saw Matpats video
I didn't think you hate the spiderverse
Another tangent, in MoM, the 838 universe has ULTRON bots, so we have to assume that the Ultron project succeded in that universe without ultron going evil mode. Thus the Vision body should be inhabited by Ultron and Vision should not even exist in that universe. So the big question is if those children are not created by magic, WHO SHAGGED WANDA?????
Tony
Well i mean technically Wanda never got impregnated by Vision in Wandavision, she impregnated herself through magic 🤔
@@itskimik "Wanda impregnated herself with magic" is a line I never thought would be said.
I bet its Thanos cause the other day I saw a movie in which...oh wait
The real question is, where is Iron Man or even Hank Pym? Iron man in the movies created Ultron so you’d think there’d be a Superior Iron Man in this universe or have Hank Pym on the team because in the comics, he made Ultron. Mr Fantastic is on the team but he wouldn’t make Ultron, he would make Herbie bots. The Addition of Ultron Bots is interesting but that adds questions, is Ultron a multiversal constant then? Because Mr F made them instead of the usual Stark.
I think marvel will have an even bigger problem in the phases after whenever this multiverse thing concludes. Nobody can die for good now. There's also so many potential plot holes that's going to come out of implementing the multiverse. Endgames time travel unfortunately ruined marvel for me.
I keep hearing people complain about how nobody dies for good due to multiversal replacements but after No Way Home, Multiverse of Madness, What-If and Loki, this hasn't happened yet. I don't think people are gonna become immortal due to the multiverse.
@@mosorireayewale8171 its not that theyre immoral its that the character will just be from a different multiverse
Spoiler warning for Thor 4.The multiverse stuff is so uninteresting and overcomplicates the MCU for me. Why can't we just stay on one universe and not mess with this time travel and multiverse bullshit that makes more plotholes and problems. They have time travel now that means they have infinite resources and is overpowered. Most of Marvel phase 4 stuff is sloppily written and they just don't care about the implications of adding new stuff or the history of previous characters. For example, the new thor movie. Thor can give his powers to anyone now??? what? why didn't he do that in Infinity War or Endgame? and there is a space looking guy that can grant wishes. Why didn't Thor consider this as an option to defeat Thanos or bring back all the people that have been snapped. Not to mention that the new Thor movie is just a jokefest that cares more about delivering bad jokes than telling a good story. The whole movie is treating itself as a joke so why should I care about it? The whole movie also looks like an eyesore. Thor's suit looks like a child designed it. What happened
@@mosorireayewale8171 it can happen but it isn't as simple... Natasha died in a universe from what if, but the Vigilant rewarded another Black Widow by putting her in that universe that lost it's Natasha since she was the only living being left since Ultron killed everyone
@@porc1429 to be fair with Thor he only recently found out he can do that and it has to involve him protecting a loved one
For me the problem is less in the details and more about the simple lack of cohesion. We've now had three major multiverse stories in MCU, at about the same time, and they're all basically unrelated. It felt like Loki laid the groundwork for future multiverse events and was then immediately forgotten.
EXACTLY. Like the major events at the end of loki are just ignored pretty much and we arent shown any link between them and the events in no way home or dr strange 2. Also I was expecting and would have liked for the ending of no way home to show a visible link to dr strange 2 but dr strange doesnt even mention any events that happened In no way home
@Cool Videos we know
but just because the show is in another timeline dont change the fact that this is pretty much broken
one time is told to us that every single choice creates timelines
in another just when the infinity stones is removed
and in another if you break a single event you're arrested to maintain the multiverse intact
and it goes on, different rules that is happening in the shows, they told us that every single one is canon, but, when you start to think, none of then could even exist in the same dimesion or multiverse or what freak name you decide to choose
Marvel Studios should have, at the very least, had a story bible that outlined exactly how they wanted to handle the multiverse and branching timelines, that way and directors and writers who work on an MCU project know what is and isn’t possible within the bounds of the MCU’s rules. Ben 10 had a lot of stories involving time travel and multiverse travel, but it never got too convoluted since they quickly established rules for how they work.
Anothrt thing is that it doe woore than being incoherent, it doe serious exposition whil having the lack, incoherence can be overlooked if you dont force viewer via exposition to pay attention to it.
Like the worse thing than being incoherent, is pretening you are when you arent , like endgame. If you dont pretend to follow coherent rules, say "dont care abiout it, tiomey whimey" not prtending you have coherent rules planned out.
@@bojaboom1407 Strange mentions No Way Home in Multiverse of Madness. When America asks what experience they have with the multiverse, Strange mentions "an incident with Spider-Man"
The best multiverse movie that came out this year was Everything Everywhere All At Once. Not only did it do justice to what the absolute chaos of such a concept would entail, but also simultaneously wove a truly heartfelt story, which somehow managed to make me choke up with emotion all the while laughing my arse off.
Oh YES. MCU writers could learn a thing or two from EEAAO.
hope more people get to see that, was a treat to see it cinemas
Yes! This
I am planning on watching it soon with my family so does it have any sex scenes or somehing?
@@tunafish5462 ehh... Some references, nothing major
I’m so glad someone finally acknowledged that alternate timelines are not the same as alt universes 😂
In the mcu they are
It’s based off one of the real life theories of the multiverse, that because of electrons the timeline often splits into 2 timelines for some things
@@minerpvpgaming2160 in the MCU they are in marvel comics alternate universes and alternate timelines are different things
@@o.8.p149 the Mcu is in a different multiverse than the comics
@@minerpvpgaming2160 in your original comment you put marvel witch would consist of all of it
In loki it is explained that letting a alternate timeline branch off for too long will turn it into a alternate universe which was the reason that the tva tried to destroy the timelines as soon as possibile so that it doesnt create a universe as it will be impossible to destroy the timeline after it becomes a universe,
Soooo they are different enough, but also same if not done anything for long time
My personal belief is that they shouldn’t have stepped into the multiverse, or at the VERY LEAST, not yet
i fully agree
@Flexible music lover true
@Flexible music lover thats what I was thinking as well, seems like if they go and do that now after all the multiverse stuff they are doing it would be like stepping back, which might not be a bad thing
Same. The multiverse is cool, but we shouldn't have done it yet bc as soon was Endgame was done all I could think about is continuing or finishing the other characters' stories. They kinda did that with Spiderman (but again, could've done it without the Multiverse), making Thor the King of New Asgard and he could be pushed to the background or become a mentor, Hawkeye could've become a mentor to the new Avengers whoever they are, or followed Nebula, but they jumped straight into the multiverse that was a bit too complicated for some viewers.
Honestly I feel like they should have done The Eternals and a Black Window movie before they even did Endgame.
Also yeah I think the first part of phase 4 should have focused on the earth and space stuff, then they could of Introduced Kang and done the Spider-man movie at the end of phase 4 to hype up phase 5.
I have always said that "WandaVision" would have been the perfect place to re-introduce Mordo, as his whole thing was "Too Many Sorcerers", and Wanda was misusing her powers.
You are right, that was yet another interesting element that Multiverse of Madness wasted.
Although, I'm afraid that there was a certain eliminated scene where Mordo goes to kill Wanda with that purpose in mind, but she, as overpowered and corrupted by the Darkhold as she is, kills him instead.
At least, without that scene in the actual movie, Mordo of Earth-616 is presumably still alive and therefore his narrative arc can be successfuly reused for future projects.
One hitch, Wanda isn’t a sorcerer
@@stumbling_ Technically no, but she does use 'True Magic', boosted.....somehow.....by exposure to the Mind Stone, whereas people like Loki and the other Asgardians use what is sometimes called 'Clarke-Tech': Technology so advanced its indistinguishable from magic (and that change really upset some comic fans, although I can see how Marvel might not have wanted to introduce Magic into their universe until Dr. Strange shows up).
MORBO
@@MrChupacabra555 Okay I get that but Mordo thinks there’s too many Sorcerers. As in people learning magic through the mystic arts. Witchcraft is hereditary and you’re born with it.
He thinks people are misusing the powers they’ve learned and that sorcery shouldn’t be handed out so willingly.
I like how Marvel employs real scientists to make their the bullshit somewhat believable and still disregard their input in the final product.
So basically Star Trek?
they actually do???
@@Dave102693 I miss when Star Trek gave me hope about humanity and the galaxy being at peace.
@@LuneKidYT yes. Kyle Hill interviewed one of Marvel's science consultants.
It's the filmmaker way. Just ask the music expert who was hired for Avatar and ended up just like Sigourney Weaver's character did in the movie (well not killed, but having her work derailed into something more convenient for the filmmakers).
You mention "going of the rules of Loki, all peters should look the same" but all the Loki's have greater differences than the peters.
I think it should be mentioned that it was regarding the same sacred timeline, though. The other peter's timelines are wayyy too different to be involved in the sacred timeline.
Thats because loki is a trickster and can change his appearance at will so he doesn't follow the rules
@@thelifeofme5221 The other Peters UNIVERSES weren't a part of the sacred timeline. He Who Remains put all the timelines that resulted in his birth into a single timeline, the rest of the multiverse was locked outside of reality by him.
@@NottherealLucifer True, I just think it's gets a bit complicated with the lack of any explanation to this. Also, slight thing here, he actually killed all the other Kang timelines and isolated his own, so he could control it. I do assume the multiverse exists outside of the previous sacred timeline
@@thelifeofme5221it depends on the branch off
15:53 “They prioritize fanfare over consistency and writing”
This is a pretty good summary of Disney’s handling of both Star Wars and Marvel.
I think that’s why I fell “out of love” with Marvel. The movies (last I checked), lack consistency, writing, and those god awful quips and puns that never stop really turned me off. With Star Wars, I just choose to ignore the sequels and only acknowledge The Mandalorian.
Kinda sad but it seems to work for everyone else (they keep breaking box office records) 🤷🏾♀️
@@randombrokeperson At some point Marvel will tank and die, and this awkward phase of humanity will end. What I never understood, however, is people saying that Marvel didn't suck until phase 4, NO, they were ALL incredibly mid generic phases.
@@gandalfthegrey2592 Right - the MCU started sucking probably around the second Captain America movie. I was slowly checking out then, but I held on for a couple movies and even preordered tickets to see ‘Black Panther’, but I was done after that. I do have to remind myself that it’s perfectly fine other people like these (terrible paint-by-number) movies and shows, but I can’t help feeling like I want it all to just END. I’m not sure all these comic movieverses and cinema franchises will “restore” mainstream film to what it was before, but as long as people stop with the damn quips and releasing 3-6 movies for the same project over and over… I will be able to breathe a tad easier
8/7/22 🌙 501
I think there is a perfect explanation of Wanda’s children existing in other realities. In the Hex, she created the life of her dreams and we learned that dreams are visions from other universes. We even see Wanda waking up from a dream with her kids in the movie.
Then that would mean in the other universes (That she dreams of) the town she enslaved in WandaVision is still enslaved. Because if she gave up the Hex’s in the other universes that would mean she gave up her kids too since they were apart of it.
@@_wowzaimshook_9368 Not necessarily. In the universe with the Illuminati, that Wanda most likely had her kids naturally with a father we don’t see on screen. Since Thanos was easily defeated in that universe, Wanda wouldn’t have gone into extreme grief and thus wouldn’t have created a hex.
@@1.21jiggawatts2 Makes sense just seems awfully convenient her real kids look exactly like the kids in her hex.
@@_wowzaimshook_9368 How is it? Wanda is another universe has kids naturally with a guy. Our Wanda then has a dream of that universe and then uses her magic to create a replica of those kids she saw.
@@1.21jiggawatts2 Ah okay. I must have not caught that the first time around. You got me there lol
“Please verify this is everything you’ve ever said.” That’s just the funniest line ever.
And then he says "What" and thus accidentally proves it is in fact not everything he has ever said because now the newest "What" is missing.
@@nogoodgod4915when he says what, another page is immediately printed out and added to the stack
Which then prompts him to add another paper with "this too".
Small notes:
Your “Three Peter” problem doesn’t contradict Loki. Loki establishes incredibly early on that variants don’t have to look the same. I mean in like episode 2 we find out that Sylvie is a female Loki. Then near the end we meet a variety of Lokis, one of which is an alligator.
Secondly, it’s not ever implied that multiverses are created upon decisions. In common media, new timelines are created for every possible decision, but the MCU never implies that about itself.
Lastly, with Loki and the disaster thing, I actually see the timelines as each being similar enough but having a safety tarp around them. So the “single” timeline was actually trillions of timelines flowing together because they were “similar enough”. Small variants can happen in each timeline, like Loki being born a girl or an alligator, but it’s only once those changes become significant enough for the timeline to Pierce through the safety tarp does it become a danger to the TVA. So Loki in Pompeii is changing the timeline, but that change is so insignificant due to the disaster that it doesn’t pierce the safety tarp and all the timelines continue flowing together.
But this isn’t to say I disagree with your central thesis. The multiverse is a mess right now and I really hope that the rules become better defined. And I do think most of those problems boil down to endgames depictions of time travel, which is frustrating since endgame is the first show to depict it.
The TVA agents also establish this as well when looking at their temp pads, they monitor that the timeline does not breach away from the sacred timeline.
@@tonytonyantonio2 right. I'm pretty sure the branching timelines were just timelines resulting in other versions of kang. If these places suffered cataclysms nothing inside them would leave to affect the timeline thus everything leading up to kang remains unchanged.
It’s still massively inconsistent and illogical, Loki has a bunch of variants that, vary, because he’s canonically a shapeshifter , the maximov Peter stuff would imply there isn’t any consistency at all, no trend or pattern just completely random mixture of traits and appearances, which again doesn’t explain how in all of infinity any one grouping would be identified between realities, there’d be as many wandas with Spider-Man powers as there would be peters with wandas powers or kangs who aren’t kang vice versa etc.
@@fioafionawright8604 It’s never stated that Lokis vary because he’s a shapeshifter to my knowledge.
@@TheShadesOfBlack maybe, but it’s still the only thing that’d make any sense, or like I said all other variants would be just as random, which they aren’t, the explanation in the comics is because he literally has many forms and reincarnates, thought it was a nod to that, otherwise is just nonsense.
One thing I’d like to point out is that when the timeline was freed, an infinite number of branch timelines were formed. So universe’s branched far enough from the main timeline can be significantly different, explaining why Three variants of Spider-Man can look completely different.
That is true. The universe is billions of years old. Go back far enough and make a small but significant change and practically anything is possible. In this case, Tobey Peter and Andrew Peter looking almost completely different from Tom Peter could be from a small but significant change like their respective 6x great grandparents marrying different people and continuing their lineage.
Plus, it would also explain why Tobey Peter and Andrew Peter never heard of the Avengers, because they never became a thing in their respective universes.
i also think loki pretty much established variants don't need to look like the main universe counterpart, i mean in that show loki has variants where he a woman, a black guy and even an alligator but then president loki is just another tom hiddleston, so basically the rules are some variants look like each other and some don't
@@evenhartwick4422 they do it as they see fit, strange variants and his girl were exactly the same and even Ended the same in most universes, What are the odds of that ?
@@EduFabolous Infinite odds. Actually.
@@EduFabolous literally infinite lmao
You’re not nit-picking at all. One of the things I have always admired about marvel is their ability to make all of their movies connect some way some how. They dropped the ball in phase 4.
@Turbo1 Gaming Hi! :) it means they didn’t meet expectations and mishandled things. Essentially they let us down (errrr let me down, can’t speak for everyone)
They REALLY dropped the ball with ''No Way Home''! The clueless writers gave Peter Parker the ''George Bailey'' treatment. Well, Tom's version of Peter Parker, not Tobey's or Andrew's. I guess I can rest easy on that! 😏
@@stevenyarnell Agree to disagree, I loved no way home 🤷🏾♀️
They were dropping the ball way before then! The Black Adam ending (I believe Guardians 2) at the end of one of those movies still makes no sense & nothing ever came of it.
Let’s also acknowledge the fact that Loki stealing the Tesseract in Endgame was not supposed to happen, but all that time traveling the Avengers did was, despite the fact that Cap and Tony traveling back to 1970 to try and get the Tesseract again happened BECAUSE Loki stole the Tesseract in the first place. What the hell is this writing?
Earth 616 isn’t the sacred timeline
In the sacred timeline cap wouldn’t have stayed with Peggy since he wouldn’t have seen her in the past
damn i didnt even think of that
Maybe when hulk hit Tony and the tesseract flew out, someone else picked it up probably a government official. Or Thor took it away to asgard immediately which is why on the normal timeline it ends up on asgard and Steve and Tony still had to go back to 1970 to get it from there. Meaning they always had to go back regardless of the how. Now the who on the other hand causes problems. Loki wasn't supposed to pick it up, which causes a branched timeline.
welp, didnt we get to know tht it was run by kang who wanted stuff to happen in a specific way so everything that the Tva says can be called bullshit
@Samuel Mutia That’s a logical explanation, but if that were true they should’ve said it in the show. All the TVA said is “You weren’t supposed to do that lol.”
The “3 peters” issue isn’t really a problem. Peter’s father would’ve had different sperm at the times the Peter’s were conceived, because they were born at different times. But they were raised the same, so they would have very similar personalities and the same name despite being genetically different.
True but you’d also be applying the fact that Peter’s father would be a different age as of making Peter, or be setting back his entire heritage back to keep his father (and mother for that matter) the same age as when they conceived him
ok ?
This makes a lot of sense.
Honestly my only gripe is that we didn't get anecdotes or the hint of Tobey's Peter potentially having been in the Avengers from the start, as an experienced and mature hero.
@Viper Hareous , May Day Parker, (Spider-Girl), was the very spider person to develop web shooters even before Peter Parker Ultimate comics did in the 2000’s, so if the MCU wanted to have alternate timelines and alternate universes being totally different from each other than they should introduced May Day Parker, (Spider-Girl), into the MCU, and that way everyone is perfectly happy, and videos like these along with comments like mine would never be made.
There was also a bunch of Lokis that looked totally different despite being considered the same person, so I don't really see any inconsistency in there being several Peter Parkers from three different universes
My only problem with this vid is that the 3 different peters definitely act within the set rules of the multiverse including that of Loki, near the end of Loki there's a bunch of different looking variants, one of which is a damn alligator. So spidermen of other universes looking different still makes sense. But other than that this is an incredibly made video and I can tell how much effort you put into it
It doesn't make sense because it didn't make sense in Loki either...
@@CapNemoSan yes it dos make secne lrian the rules of the multiverse they say any thing and evey thing can and dos happens it the ruels lrian them so it dos make senece
It’s an incredible hater video nothing else. Like you said the guy is just ignoring and making things up to hate tho he has some solid points. He also said Michael didn’t watch WandaVision since Wanda was a good guy in the end but he knows Wanda was using the dark hold in the post credit scene still he is acting like writer made some crazy choice making Wanda evil now. Guy just some blabbering hater nothing else.
@@yashpednekar4381 why do you dismiss a valid critique as a "hater video"? This guy clearly put effort into a well made video, there's no need to insult him just because you like Marvel's Time travel. Dude literally just made a mistake, that's all.
Everyone agrees the multiverse is a mess lol
@@yashpednekar4381 critic isn't hate, don't stay too much inside your own bubble. touch grass.
I just realized, in Avengers: Infinity War, Dr. Strange literally says he studied 14,000,605 alternate timelines to see which one would be the best choice for victory.
How did he see 14,000,605 timelines if only one existed when the Loki series began?
Edit: The replies to this comment clearly didn't watch the actual video, because according to Marvel, timelines and universes are the exact same thing. I'm going based on *their* logic, and showing how it's fucking stupid.
It could be because the Multiverse already exists.
Didn’t he say alternate outcomes? So timelines that would branch from that moment not timelines that were already flowing in parallel
@@RCX_Sco1 yup: he had no way to "jump" to another timeline, those were the ones that would be created by their own choices
Alternate timelines and alternate universes are completely different
@@mdifrahamiqbal8031 Not the way Marvel's been treating them, as the video has already stated.
My only issue with the multiverse in the MCU is that it was introduced a little too fast and a little too early I didn’t expect the multiverse to be introduced until like Phase 5 but on the bright side I no longer have to wait another 10 years for Secret Wars it’s possible with the multiverse being introduced this early we might get Secret Wars in the next 4 to 5 years hopefully
Nah Kevin fegie said they have the mcu planned out till 2032 that’s probably when the event starts
I think they should’ve done the cosmic saga and it doesn’t have to be long either. Make it be about galactus, he’s getting dangerously close to earth, they find a way to kill him, they realize they can’t because he’s needed to balance eternity and death. They let him eat and they move to another planet, then something comes up and they need to move to another timeline/universe.
Then the multiverse saga happens and either Kang is the big bad and Knull is after him. Knull was also the reason they had to move, and would make a good villian since he was around before any universe.
@@jaylenjayden9305 he also said they’re not doing anymore 10 year story arcs. Secret wars is probably 2027-28
Yeah I can’t wait for secret wars to suck
@@GigaChadh976 autocorrect is at it again 😂
In Loki they're pretty clear that anomolies are only stopped when the changes measure past a certain level. So the hiding in disasters makes sense cause nothing they do will significantly alter anything.
Yeah I agree with everything he said except his take on this
@@HorseLegend I feel like the majority of the first half of this video was just because he didn’t understand that basic concept
It's as if he didn't watch the show, they explained this pretty clearly. Any major evidence gets wiped out thus negating any alterations.
not really. in pompei's case because of loki people's bodies will be in different positions
@@paveantelic7876 I believe unless there’s a specific body in a specific position that’s relevant to anything besides being a census number in the Pompeii eruption… it doesn’t matter “exactly” where they are found by archeologists as long as they ARE found in Pompeii
I never got the impression that the Infinity Stones are what anchor the timeline. The Ancient One simply used them as an example because that’s what Bruce was there for.
If you notice, she removed the Time Stone from her representation of time, as well, which is pertinent because we knew that Strange would need it to defeat Dormammu.
I taught that too, until the deleted scene, wich makes it very clear
Not to mention the writers and directors both disagree on the time travel rules
My thing is was she talking about every stone or just the time stone. I’m not sure if having the mind stone would’ve beaten dormammu
No, she very clearly stated the stones anchor time
@@jesusramirezromo2037
Which deleted scene?
@@jesusramirezromo2037: Deleted scenes are deleted for a reason, contradictions and inconsistencies can very much be one of those reasons. So you can't really use a scene removed from a film as an example of that film breaking its own rules, if breaking those rules might have been why the scene was removed in the first place.
Agreed. Infinity War and Endgame perfectly paved the way to a Mutant introduction. They served the silver platter to themselves and didnt take it. Instead went multiverse and cosmic threat. Shouldve been a phase 7 idea. Mutants now
I honestly feel like they are trying to expand too quickly. I feel that they could have done all of the MCU Multiverse really well, but with so many different media forums taking on the different projects Feige is not able to keep tabs on it all. So there is no one looking at all the timelines and different universes to make sure that it is not contradicting itself. So you could say that there is no "Kang" watching over everything to make sure that it all makes sense.
I think they should've explore individual stories more without multiverse concept. Maybe tap into little timetravel like Agents of Shield did and explore pther intresting concepts
@@alatielinara Oh yeah agents of shields was great, and dealt well with time travel. even if eason was better than season 7, and the parallel uneverses, also don well.
ZThey just needed a strict thing establishing time travel and what you have tostick to. An it would be fine, and that it should matter .
Thoughts:
1 Kang was keeping 616 in quarantine, the other timelines/universes exist, he's just keeping any splits within his quarantine zone to stop himself from popping up.
2 the multiverse before Loki was extremely different universes because the similar ones were either being pruned to prevent their existence or locked beyond his quarantine zone. I guess alternate timelines from before 'time' at the dawn of creation brought about the likes of the Dark Dimension. Once he dies the timelines split off from all times, so similar universes started becoming accessible.
3 America has no other versions because, she just has no other versions, it's her thing. either none of her choices are capable of splitting in her timeline, or the other options cause her to pop out of existence in other timelines.
4 Wanda was far, FAR, from the hero at the end of WandaVision. She tortured a town for weeks(?) then her reparations was to, what, leave?
5 No reason her kids from other universes had to be hex creations, clearly she 'dreamed them up' from her dreams of other Wanda's families, who might not have even been with Vision. 838 Wanda probably created her kids the usual way.
6 Old man cap might have used the Pym particles to travel back. Or maybe he even met with the TVA.
7 Yeah, it's a damn mess.
"Wanda was far, FAR, from the hero at the end of WandaVision. She tortured a town for weeks(?) then her reparations was to, what, leave"
Well actually.....
"Yeah, it's a damn mess"
What is?
@@dylansharp8471 the whole thing is a mess
In the background you can see a version of Peggy in the TVA. The running theory is that the TVA made a deal with Cap allowed by the one who remains to let him stay in the branched timeline and they returned him back to the proper Earth 199999 or 616 timeline after Peggy died or something. This will prolly be explained nextime we see Cap. Hopefully.
@@jeremymorris345 next time we see cap? you mean never…?
Marvel Studios’ writers are quickly digging themselves into the same hole that comic writers have for decades, and the reason the barrier for entry to new readers is seemingly high: multiple writers who can’t be bothered to read their contemporaries’ stories end up contradicting one another, and the universe becomes inherently complicated if not broken as a result.
If Marvel Studios wants to continue their franchise being accessible, they’d do well to establish a concrete set of rules on how their multiverse works going forward, and ensuring all their writers are on the same page.
The first 3 phases worked because they had a sense of cohesion, and there weren’t bogged down by continuity errors. Phase 4 is barreling toward problematic continuity at a breakneck speed, and though they’re a company producing films based on comic books, they can’t let themselves fall victim to the problems that have bogged down comic books for decades.
They actually had a meeting already to discuss the rules. I'm sure it's figured out already, and there aren't even really any contradictions.
It’s a production issue. They’re putting out like three movies and several things shows a year. These things are being written and filmed alongside each other and are themselves at various points in production. They’re going to have little to no idea about what the story involves
Or, you know, have the timelines never interact with each other. Like what any sane person would do.
True
@@thedapperdolphin1590 and half these shows are not even needed
I was so sad Everything Everywhere All At Once went so unnoticed. I vaguely recall maybe seeing a trailer for it while it was in theaters, but then it left my mind and I heard absolutely nothing of it again until after its theater run was over and so many people were praising it. I gotta see it!
Everything, everywhere, all at once has made $63 million in the box office of just the US and it theater run isn't over. AMC theaters and others have not taken this movie out of the movies running at their theaters. Even the DVD/ streaming release took longer than normal because of people are still going out and seeing this movie.
I make sure to mention Racacoonie, everytime someone talks about ratatouille. I then tell them that Racacoonie is the original.
i cried, laughed, dod 3 backflips and sharted myself. that movie is the best. EVER.
Unnoticed? You don't see a single conversation about Dr Strange without that movie being mentioned lmao
prolly because the plot is like a broken toilet after a whole football team shat in it.
Loved the breakdown. Alternative hypothesis: the unreliable exposition. Because exposition comes from a particular character's understanding, that character may simply be mistaken, or even have no ability to understand a multiverse that does not have consistent physics. The paint world comes to mind. In this context a character in a particular universe simply lacks access to the alternate physics of alternate worlds, and cannot give an accurate account during exposition.
Yeah, its the only way I cant accept that without breaking immersion. All the characters are explaining thing as they know, being unreliable narrators. I think Prof. Hulk is less believable of them all cause he can only assume, not knowing for sure (I actually hate his explanation scene he is so full of himself there...). TVA isn't much reliable either since they even don't know full truth. Ancient one may be on point there but she can be wrong with the names.
I actually think that the Agents of Shield time travel concept adds to the MCU one some logic - not every action creating whole another branch\universe and those universes can exist short time and then return back to the one they branched off. So the small action is like stone thrown to the pond - it creates ripples but doesn't change pond itself.
I fell like main characters in MCU movie are too confident in their knowledge overall, they are giving expositions with such attitude like they really know what is happening but if we think about it - they have no way of knowing. That's what pissed me off in endgame - prof. Hulk was basically shitting on other explanations of time travel never giving the sane one himself.
Kang formed the main Time Line and maintained it's trajectory until the finale of Loki. The main Time Line consisted of all Multiverses. Remember, Kang's view of a Nexus event is one that causes his multiversal war to happen. All he was doing was preventing that. That is what he deemed the sacred timeline. If you notice from the series. they were always branches forming, some of those branches were left undone due to the fact that they were not significant enough for the war to happen. That's how Multiverses existed during the events of the first doctor strange movie. think about it
Do you think that the living tribunal would've gotten involved? Considering that he who remains is manipulating and completely obliterating timelines from forming and preventing the creation of the vast openness of the multiverse
@@Lukaswags livin tribunal is all about keeping balance in the multiverse if you think about it kang was keeping the multiverse from going into chaos so maybe living tribunal supported it and didn’t intervene
that's a reasonable explanation, and it does explain why the loki variants are so radically different from eachother, but fundamentally it doesn't make sense. Each sub timeline created is another timeline that could split and branch. The tighter they constrain the sacred timeline the easier and safer it is to maintain
Thank you! Finally someone who actually understands! The majority of this video just came from a lack of understanding of the rules Marvel put in place not the other way around.
So the avengers with infinity stones creating multiple timelines isn’t significant enough but Loki escaping to a desert is? I call complete bs mate
The MCU is starting to feel more like the Marvel comics nowadays.
Too much stuff that is just endlessly rushed out.
Best case scenario, marvel takes their time and releases bare minimum one movie per year, with a show in between, allowing writers/directors/CG artists time to work on their respective crafts.
I’m sure everyone who works on this stuff is plenty talented, they just don’t have time to really showcase said talent.
Personally, I'd be fine with going back to the way it was pre-2017 where we'd get two movies per year, then get maybe two shows per year as well.
It’s not Marvel that’s the problem, it’s Disney. Ever since they bought Marvel and Star Wars, they’ve been pumping content out of them like there’s no tomorrow, not caring about taking their time.
And this ties back to what the Presenter said about each writer having their own take. Just wait until the great reboot occurs.
Anyone else not care and just want to see movies?
I wish. But it ain't happening. The second any of these side character get the smallest bit of love they rush to make a TV show. Agatha was cool and all but she doesn't need her own show. Same with Echo.
The way Agents of SHIELD handled time travel and timelines was so much better!
It almost made sense!
Same goes for Marvel's Runaways.
The easiest way to rationalize the dual explanations given on how time travel works is simply to accept that neither Banner nor the "Ancient One" actually have any true understanding of how time travel works. They both present their opinion as if it were fact in an effort to convince the listener (Lang for Banner, and Banner for AO), but this doesn't suggest they actually have innate knowledge of the subject. Having been guardian of the time stone, AO should be the authority, but there's no evidence to suggest she ever used the time stone let alone made any attempt to alter history.
The main issue for me is that now we are desensitized to any future conflicts or villains. There were literal GASPS in the theater during the snap, and we were cheering at the defeat of Thanos. But now we gloss over the fact that entire universes are destroyed by Dr. Strange, without the infinity stones mind you...and CELESTIALS exist and we're just like, yup those guys are weaksauce!
Man, regardless of how much I love something, if it has time travel, I go into hyper critical mode. If writing a story with time travel, I recommend learning a few specifically things:
1.) The difference between timeline, universe, and dimension.
2.) How alternate timelines should theoretically work.
3.) What the butterfly effect is.
4.) What a paradox is.
Being willing to acknowledge the flows in something even when you like it. That is a very mature trait that to many people lack, respect
I agree they did back themselves into a corner with their writing. However the multiple Spider-Men looking like different people is simply because if there is multiple timelines then there’s a timeline where a different sperm met a different egg and so they can still be the same person but look totally different.
It’s refreshing to seen a fan of these shows and movies like the thing and also acknowledge it’s flaws instead of excusing them. I wish more fans were like you.
True. I myself I have to do better because when I try to argue the negatives and people just act as it's impossible to have flaws and then I just end "hating" everything, like the director because I think that maybe people will really take some of this human error as "canon" and then it feel like there isn't a channel about marvel that is not about Easter eggs but about the storytelling and like to talk about MCU as what it is already: Their own Myth anthologies. Liike Greeks they really have a lot of meaning for people, lesson and is created by a lot of different directors so it makes this weird: Everything is united but at the same time there a million type of fans and different stories that make their favs
I think it's called suspension of disbelief or something like that lol kinda helps you enjoy fantasy better. That's how I enjoy one-piece.
When someone is a fan of something and you point out its flaws and shit all over the thing they love it's kind of a dick move, and its natural for them to want to explain how they can still enjoy it despite the flaws i.e. Making excuses.
@@allenlowe314 suspension of disbelief is the act of avoiding critical thinking when examining something relating to real-life possibilities. This means you avoid scientifically analysing Iron Man's suit, Thor's power, etc.
This, however, is completely different from turning off your brain to bad writing.
@@allenlowe314 Stop trying to defend flaws. Sometimes marvel has bad writing.
@@allenlowe314 Really I think it's telling that you consider "pointing out flaws" and "shitting all over something" to be the same thing.
Well I consider "just turn your brain off" and "just blindly consume product and get excited for next product" to be the same thing.
While I understand it is highly unlikely I can kind of wrap my brain around the 3 Peter's thing. Different timelines can be vastly different or very small in terms of changes. Thus I would argue that perhaps the reason that it's different Peter's is because in these timelines events happened that caused Richard and Mary Parker to be born earlier, meet earlier and bang earlier. Thus different spots in time mean different sperm and different ages, thus still Peter Parker, but they look different. You could argue that for any actor in the multiverse that looks different.
I know I'm pulling that out of my ass but it's what I've been accepting in order for it to make sense to me.
Or he’ll, May and Ben could have had the same thing happen to them as well, with the possibility of different people, worlds, etc
Or maybe the chromosomes were arranged differently after all that here are infinite timelines/universes
This really shows that they should’ve made a separation between alternate timelines and alternate universes
they are from alternate universes not timelines
@@arkhamjedi4472 I know. Im saying if marvel is making them interchangeable then that is the explanation I'm going with for why they look different
The biggest problem is that we have almost no guidelines over how things actually work. Lokis powers were pretty consistent until the series Loki came out, with him basically only having illusion magic and being as durable as a god. In the series, he stops a building from falling with some magic. That came out of nowhere. We have basically no idea what the Scarlet Witch can do, which makes it kinda pointless, because they become a big plot device, helping when the writers want while not helping when they aren't wanted. Same with the multiverse. We have no idea what the difference between a timeline and a universe is, much less what causes them to split. How many of them are there? Are there any principles that stay constant in all of them? Is there something that happens in none of them? Are there some that are unreacheable from others? We literally have no idea how any of it works, which is the worst thing you can do. Cpt Marvels powers are overtuned and vague, Time Travelling didn't make any sense, the Quantum Scale is well enough defined for now, but if it shows up for another movie, we need to learn what's possible and not way before they use the things possible to further the plot in convenient ways. Agathas Witch Powers need to be put into context regarding power level and uses. Moon Knight needs a lot of catching up to fit into the MCU, and Eternals left a lot of questions unexplained, especially in regard to Thanos. It has basically become an unending flood of questions with every new release, and if they want to get ma back to viewing their movies at all, they need a lot of solid answers for the things they keep working with
I think a lot of people misinterpret a lot that is said in Loki. It’s not that there is no multiverse, it’s that Kang separated the mcu (sacred timeline) from the multiverse. There are still branching timelines from the sacred timeline that exist, but those branches never were allowed to connect to totally diff universes
Exactly, and people always seems to forget that the events with he who remains in the end of Loki occur after the end of time, so the consequences of those events should had repercussions throughout time, not just "after" its shown to us, because there is no "after" that moment, only before. Needless to say that all the TVA is also beyond time, so thats some bullshit
You do know there is probably another Kang with another TVA and his sacred timeline?.
@@iamdeathiamentropyiamdarks3517 at this point I don't know what to believe anymore
@@iamdeathiamentropyiamdarks3517 not until after He Who Remains dies.
@@iamdeathiamentropyiamdarks3517 yeah I’m pretty sure there’s like a kang I’m each universe he just learned how to separate the universes
I understand why normal viewers have trouble understanding the MCU knowing how convoluted it is.
Imagine being a normie wanting some dumb fun then having to understand the difference between dimensions, timelines, and universes in a franchise that consistently contradicts its own rules.
If it contradicts its own rules then literally nobody can understand it because it's not comprehensible.
Exactly
Episodic movie PRETEND to be genius COMPLEX STORYDRIVE movie
I mean you can have a distinction between all those things and have it be easy to understand. Stargate does this pretty well.
According to Stargate Lore:
A separate Universe is entirely distinct from ours and was created in an entirely different event from our Big Bang. An Alternate Timeline is a different branch of the Timeline where an event happened differently and everything was able to snowball from there. An Alternate Dimension is in the same Timeline and Universe as the Main Dimension, and is basically just another layer on top of reality you can hop to.
The main reason these are distinct and understandable is because of the consistent use of different terms, and the fact that we were introduced to these concepts separately, we didn't get all of these at once. We got them one at a time, which gave the audience time to grasp the concepts of each one separately before having to learn to distinguish them.
The mechanics of a story or several stories being nonsensical is NOT a nitpick! Anyone who says so should just admit that they don't care about quality writing. Why is the MCU giving incredibly ambitious and complex narratives to amateur writers? Phase four has some of the worst hack writing I've ever seen and the only reason it's successful is because of the good will the Infinity Saga has built up.
Yeah, they're giving phase four to a lot of unqualified writers and showrunners. I don't hate all of this phase, but a lot of it is subpar. I just thought I was getting tired of the MCU at this point, but whenever I go back to MCU movies pre-2019 (with the exclusion of Endgame which I mostly really enjoyed with the exception of a couple moments) I'm reminded that it's just the subpar quality of the people making a lot of this phase that has me tired and increasingly disillusioned. They seem to care more about identity quota filling and nepotistic connections over hiring people who actually have a good pitch for story and character ideas.
Perhaps they’re just writing from the characters perspectives like a good story should. Our characters haven’t dealt with these complex situations before, so it’s completely reasonable for them to not have all the answers. It also makes no sense for them to exposition dump the entire funadmentals of a reality when a character wouldn’t know that except for maybe Kang, who is coming back in some form soon in the new Antman movie. Why does everything need to be fed to you without any mystery or confusing aspects
If a story is confusing, then it has failed. Good mysteries are wrapped up with a satisfying understanding. Really talented writers can even make those mysteries open ended, but still non-contradictory and satisfying for whatever conclusion an individual may make.
The MCU is full of contradictions. In Endgame, we're told that changing your past doesn't change your present. When you time travel, you create an alternate timeline. Yet Steve Rogers appears on that bench implying that he has not travelled to alternate universes to return the stones.
In Loki, we're told that there is only 1 sacred timeline. Yet we know of others caused by Endgame, and the infinite multiverse the Ancient One mentions after The Avengers, before Endgame, thus independent of the events of Loki.
In Multiverse of Madness, we're told visiting alternate realities causes an incursion. Yet that has never happened in Doctor Strange 1, Endgame, Loki, Spider-Man, or even in Doctor Strange 2 with the amount of time America has spent travelling the multiverse.
These contradictions do not arise because of a character's limited understanding of the multiverse, but because the mechanics in each story are contradictory. So the writing is not focusing on plot, but it is not focusing on characters either.
Captain America crashed the plane into the arctic, sacrificing his life to save others. After spending a decade in modern times, making new friends, saving an old one, and finding purpose and duty defending the Earth, I refute Steve abandoning the world, to back and live an uneventful life with Peggy and allow numerous tragedies to occur.
The most interesting thing to ever happen to Hulk / banner happens off screen.
Thor is made into a joke. I understand the reason for his depression, but this depression isn't take seriously and he never redeems himself.
Wanda enslaved people. She became aware of the fact that her subjects were terrified but went on for some time. Eventually freeing them does not absolve her of her wrongdoing like how a kidnapper eventually freeing their victim does not absolve them. Then Wanda goes on a murder spree to find her children. This is not simply the corruption from the DarkHold, as she still has the agency to be "reasonable", which to her means sending in monster that are less effective than herself and cause collateral damage and puts innocent bystanders in danger. She chooses to go on the murder spree rather than looking for Vision, recreating her children with her magic, or having her own children by other means.
Doctor Strange was apparently aware of what happened in Westview and did nothing to stop it or hold Wanda accountable. He never read about the book of Vishanti even though he loves to read. He is terrible at magic. His alternate self doesn't simply portal to the book and instead engages with the monster. On Earth, Strange doesn't portal the monster away from civilians. He summons a giant saw blade to cut a bus in half, but doesn't use it on the monster. We're told that he always has his hand on the knife, as if that's a bad thing, when in reality his dedication has saved the universe on multiple occasions, including one where he died to allow others to succeed. In Spider-Man, he's fine with altering the minds of the entire world, but immediatly begins casting the complex spell without first discussing the spell or what Peter specifically even wants.
I don't see why so many people refuse to acknowledge that good writing has consistency and bad writing has inconsistency. What's wrong with asking a consistent standard to be upheld? Fun does not mean poorly written when movies like The Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, Civil War, Spider-Man 1 and 2, or Spider-Verse are fun with fantastic writing.
@@ngabel8956 1. He simply lived in past, didn’t change the past. 2. Maybe it did create new timelines but kang was still around so they would have be pruned simple.
@@ngabel8956 3. In mom, at the end they said he did cause an incursion.
When I watched Loki for the first time I was confused to no end. The whole idea of there being a "universe outside of a universe outside a universe" ON TOP of alternate realities was like, "ok, do they even know what's going on??"
Loki being in the TVA and seeing how extremely insignificant he was there hit pretty hard with me and millions of others but the fact that there's so many questions that remain un answered for us to just "figure out" is extremely frustrating.
Star wars has way lore than Marvel but they manage to keep everything "inter-galactic" which makes it simple to understand. There's no "alternative universe."
Guessing you never read much Star Wars EU 💀
@@literatemax Guess not
So does Dragon Ball, and their take on the multiverse is much less loose-y goose-y compared to others.
Star Wars (once helmed by George Lucas) had one universe, especially if it was dubbed as “Expanded Universe”.
I thought it was like, all the multiverses are there but all following the same timeline/story, but after Kang was killed, all those multiverses had free will.
That’s kinda right
Exactly. I think there are a lot of issues but I don't think loki establishes that timelines and universes are the same but rather that there are infinite universes within a timeline
Phases 1-3 gave backstories to all their characters. This girl was in like 50% of the scenes and all I know is that she has magical powers and shes looking for her parents.
The Ancient one wasn’t saying that removing an infinity stone is the only way to make a branch in time. She was saying that the infinity stones hold the structure of time together and the removal of one dooms that universe. So wherever point in time they go with the infinity stone will be fine because it just gained a stone however the point in time they just left will be doomed because that moment in time lost a stone
I think the main problem is how will they put the stone back in its place when you can just travel to the “future”. So after the avengers removed the stone they doomed all those universes/different timelines since they can’t travel in time to the past to that same universe to replace them. They can only go the future
I think the simplest way to reconcile all the multi-meta-madness of the Loki-verse is to take a skeptical view of the TVA's self-aggrandizing propaganda. Compared to the godlike role they portray for themselves, omnisciently pruning all variant multiverses which threaten the integrity of the so-called "Sacred Timeline", the actual scope of the TVA's activities appears rather parochial. They mainly seem to focus on variants who might pose a threat to the ascendancy of He Who Remains, the uber-most variant of Kang the Conquerer. It makes sense that a being of such grandiose self-esteem would feel deeply threatened only by variants of himself, and take action to pre-emptively snuff out any potential competitors' chances. Given the power to kidnap variants from any number of timelines and brainwash them into unquestioning servitude within the TVA, it would be totally in character for Kang to portray their work as a transcendent guardianship of the one true timeline. This would shield Kang's minions from the sordid realization of their mercenary role in maintaining his unchallenged dominion over his own uniquely universal scope, straddling innumerable timelines by the virtue of his unconstrained ego.
In short, the TVA's claim to multiversal omnipotence is a megalomaniacal delusion cast by He Who Remains upon his own pathetic minions.
I thought He Who Remains’ goal is to prevent Kang the Conqueror’s multiversal war.
@@jordanmorris5194 - Just another facet of He Who Remains' self-serving propaganda. In reality, it is He who is waging preemptive multiversal war against all other variants who might conceivably pose a threat to his dominion.
This is literally what I was thinking. Bc his whole monologue really didn’t make a lot of sense. Like yea it’s no doubt there are worse variants of him in multiverse. But I actually think it goes deeper than that. Like you said. The propaganda. He portrays himself as self righteous by claiming he is the lesser of the evils and trying to make everyone think the multiverse is at stake. But what if it isn’t? What if he is actually trying solidify his own timeline to ensure he rules for as long as possible. Until the end of time. So when his time came he tried to manipulate Loki and Sylvia into continuing his work. Which is actually an effort to prevent the future avengers from defeating the one who is controlling everything in the actual scale of the multiverse -Kang Prime
No, absolutely nothing about the Marvel Multiverse "works". Not technically and not within the context of the rules the MCU recreates every few episodes/films. As far as Multiverse of Madness, you are wholly correct. And I actually think those same issues are inherent in "Spiderman No Way Home". They might even be more glaring in no way home from a technical standpoint. But honestly, those aren't even the worst choices made in the writing for NWH or MVoM. I really just think the writing for a lot of recent MCU has been just awful, terrible, inconsistent, corporate pandering. And a lot of the new MCU films come off to me as if written by SNL' s classic "wild and crazy guys" , with everything being "wild and crazy" but absolutely none of it making sense or being "good writing". And no, you aren't nitpicking.
I actually have WAY more problems with No Way Home that just have to do with character choices, and I've been complaining about them since the first trailers for the film were released, before it came out. Just the idea that Strange would cast such a spell just to help Peter's very minor problem, was unbelievable, and no the 1 minute "explainer" where Strange and Wong talk about the party where everyone at the party forgot. Which is itself a terrible bit of writing even trying to compare changing the memory of people at a party compared to the ENTIRE world and seemingly every individual dimension. This is simply something Strange would never consider, let alone begin casting before actually explaining the ramifications to the person who is the entire focus of the situation and spell. Which might be the worst character choice of all. The idea that Strange would provide no explanation to Peter that literally all those close to him would forget, including Strange, is NOT a character choice Dr. Strange would make, but is ONLY a character choice the writer would create as a cheap rational to get the story where they want it to go. And in this case, it's beyond obvious, it actually kind of hurts the movie, at least for me, a lot. From that point on I can no longer take Strange or Peter seriously. It wholly destroyed my ability to suspend disbelief within the confines of this already established universe of relatively consistent characters. Or at least, what should be consistent characters.
And from there, I honestly think the writing goes off the rails even more with the choice to bring these characters from different time lines right before they die, at all drastically different points in time, sometime within the same universe. How does that work exactly? Um it doesn't. I mean let's for a moment put aside the fact that backward time travel is fairly certainly completely impossible, and that "multiple dimensions" doesn't mean infinite copies of every possibility ever, but actual extra spacial dimensions, more akin to what is shown in Dr. Strange with all the various pocket realities, and worlds that don't adhere to normal physics. And forget the FACT that alternate "copies" of a character/person who aren't the same character/person are definitively NOT the same character/person. Thus, they are not "copies" or alternate dimension versions of one another but completely different people. We understand we have to trash the actual rules of reality to even get a film like this off the "rational" ground. But then to go on to establish not one, not two, but multiple different rule sets for the same film "universe", across different films and even within individual films, is just a sign that they really don't know or care how these things would work or if they make sense. No, they are just making a comic film universe where "imagination runs wild" and "anything and everything is plausible", that is, if it can lead to a profit, then it will be given the go ahead. And like, why does Strange's spell effect other "dimensions" at all ? Isn't it just a memory spell?
Multiverse of Madness takes these and more inconsistencies to a completely higher level. I'm still waiting for the "perilous journey to the mountain" that Wong talks about, to take place. The one, that Wong stated "no one has ever survived", yet we see no sign of in the film as Wanda and Wong simply levitate their way to the platform. Which theoretically, anyone with a hint of magic could have done. And then this giant prophecy bit, well, a lot of crap really that just was referenced as meaningful but had no meaning within the film. And that's not even getting into the multiverse issues or America Chavez character, who was just a dull McGuffin really who still hasn't sat down to figure out her powers after seemingly sending her parents to a different dimension years ago.
Ultimately, I'm not at all surprised by the lack of consistency or thought that went into the multiverse concepts, contradictions and just all around fails, because that same lack of consistency and effort is abundantly apparent in the majority of the MCU writing over the last 5-6 years or so. And it's unfortunate they took series from Netflix, because I thought Netflix did a better job with their series than Disney+ has done so far with most of theirs. Ms. Marvel is practically unwatchable, Hawkeye was very meh and the only reason it worked slightly better than Ms. Marvel is the main actress did an amazing job of making a relatively mediocre and uninspiring character somewhat entertaining on screen. A Hawkeye with none of the depth or backstory of the original Hawkeye.
Ultimately though,, it's clear to me that the writing of MCU films has deteriorated extraordinarily since the early days of the MCU. The writing, for the most part, has gotten lazy, sloppy, drastically beyond the bounds of consistent and really ruins a lot of the content for me. Not quite as bad as the writing for Disney Star Wars, but bad enough to at this point verify that possibly the most important aspect of story telling, the writing and story, is a wholly secondary issue in Disney's list of priorities. Which basically means no matter what choices the MCU gets right, there will always be lingering story and plot issues that make MCU films less than what they ultimately could be.
I couldn't agree more with your comment. It all comes down to lazy writing. They know it will make money so they don't care. But just like with Star Wars (or GoT) it's going to bite them eventually, when the faith in the quality of the studio is gone.
The ancient one did NOT say that the ONLY way to make a branch timeline is by de-locating the stone from it's time stream. 6:24 *That is incorrect*
She simply said REMOVING the stone from it's proper place in history, would result in a Dark, broken, ever worsening timeline. (Unless it should be returned to it's proper point in history).
*Simply put, it's never said nor even close to implied that this is the only way to create a branch timeline*
Unfortunately... Making a lot of your timeline argument after 6:24 *decently irrelevant*
Thank you that’s what I came to the comments looking for. This dude keeps saying the MCU is getting the multiverse wrong but his understanding isn’t any better at all lmao
Not really, since he explicitly says that he is ignoring that explanation of the multiverse. It only makes that one point irrelevant, nothing else is based on it, the contradictions remain.
@@emancules What...? He is still correct on all other accounts
@@emancules No despite that mistake he’s right that the MCU doesn’t have a clear distinction between the 2 concepts.
@@nattokami9598 His point about timelines is incorrect, & I do agree that their isn't a massive distinction between the two.
However, the comics are the same & his multiversal points are still mostly irrelevant.
*The Multiverse as well as* " *Multitime* " (My own name for Multiversal timelines) ,
Are already undeniably similar, where they even sometimes tend to be both.
*For example stuff like Old-Man Logan & Spider-Man 2099* , both are represented as alternate futures for 616. Same histories, different futures, yet both are separate universal spaces.
*It's not a MCU specific problem guys*
*IT'S A COMICBOOK PROBLEM*
This brings up so many things I was struggling with trying to write fanfic LOL. The more I researched shit, the more confused I got
you took the words right out of my mouth with this one.
Another thing I think is worth mentioning is in "Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse", Miguel O'Hara mentions Tom Holland's Spider-Man & Doctor Strange, referring to THAT Earth as 199999...
6:32 Not at all though. She's telling Hulk that them going back to take the stones will cause new, alternate timelines that don't have the stones. She IS NOT saying that removing the stones causes the new timeline
Once alternate timelines and universes got introduced I knew things would get messy. I can overlook some issues as long as it dosen't get to egregious and the movies/shows are entertaining
I will say, from what I understood from Loki, multiple timelines/multiverses always existed and were constantly being created, but so long as the events in those universes resulted in the same outcome as Kang wished for, they were considered to be the same timeline.
Like, yes, it's a mess and this probably creates more problems than it solves, but honestly it seems like the writers made the rules vague on purpose as to allow multiple explanations to make sense and the shows/movies to still kinda work even when being produced simultaneously. It can be a good or a bad thing depending on who you ask.
Marvel’s failure is why I consider Everything, Everywhere, All at Once my favorite movie. It’s because it goes far more about the many worlds theory in its actual interpretation and does reference that quantum physics is mathematical.
I agree entirely with what you said about the mechanics of the multiverse; it's just so interesting to me how such a big franchise can just miss these details; how hard is it to understand that two things with different names are two other things, timelines and universes and very different.
I think the problem is both the collection of timelines, the collection of Dimensions, and the infinite number of distinct universes, are all called the multiverse by characters despite being functionally different.
Doctor Strange in his own movie sees into the other Dimensions in his universe. It's established that sorcerer's can reach into different dimensions, and sometimes actual gateways can be created.
Doctor Strange in Infinity War looked into potential timelines. This allowed him to find the 1 that would eventually lead to success.
In Endgame they travel through time. The Ancient one explained that by removing the infinity stone, their timeline would be thrown out into darkness, because it's an infinity stone, they kind of need to exist for the universe to function. In their parallel timeline removing the stone would break pretty much everything. Other parallel timelines would be ok, but not the one they were currently in.
In Loki timelines were pruned by the TVA/Kang when they diverged too much because of the risk of creating a variant of Kang. Sylvee killing Kang caused irreparable branches in that timeline, creating a Multiverse. These could be much different from the Sacred Timeline.
Spiderman No Way Home only affected the timeline, and the reason it reached into those other movies, is because Kang couldn't prune branches in the timeline before they diverged enough.
In the Multiverse of Madness they travel between different universes. It's established that only America can freely do this, while other characters can only Dream walk at the most. I don't think it breaks established rules because it's a different thing from what has been happening so far. It's also reasonable to assume that wanda created her kids from her dreams, so not every kid would be from a hex. It's also reasonable to assume that any version of her kids that's close enough to the ones she lost, would have to be in a universe very similar to her own. She wanted her kids, not random kids with the same name and look. That limited her options a ton.
I'm not saying it's amazing. No each explanation comes with its own issues. But I really don't think the MCU hasn't made a distinction between these things, so there's no reason to think that the rules governing each thing would apply to others. Dimensions are different, Timelines are different, and Universes are different. All are called the Multiverse.
And honestly is that really a problem? What's the difference between a universe incredibly similar to the starting one, and an alternate timeline that branched out recently? What's the difference between a kind of different universe, and an extremely branched timeline? There's an infinite number of both, many are going to end up very similar.
I do think writers need to communicate more, and I agree that it's kind of a mess right now. But it's not as bad as you think it is.
Except for Morbius, we just have to pretend that it never happened.
the multiverse did exists. the “sacred timeline”
was just a prewritten path for the various universes. when kang died and the tva was dismantled, there were no overseers to make sure each universe followed their very specific scripts. that’s why the multiverse plunged into chaos.
Yup, timelines and Universe are completely separate.
There is confusion don't get me wrong but they're very much separate.
He who remains was in "control" of keeping 1 timeline, by controlling this timeline across every infinite universe this prevents a multiversal war between different kangs from different universe
Kevin Fiege confirmed he who remains death allowed for no way home to occur.
How can the TVA be dismantled in the past AFTER Kang dies at the end of time??? The TVA in the past already happened, so Kang could have overseen it while he was alive. Now you'll say the TVA doesn't exist in time, but that is utter BS since everything in the TVA proceeds linearly in time with cause and effect events, all of which would not happen outside the confines of time.
This show is nonsense. Don't even attempt to rationalize it (but if you, please let me know how exactly a timeless place is affected *after* an event at the end of time lol)
@@sivad1025 I love and hate this shit all at once, lmao only Marvel.
@@sivad1025 He Who Remains sat outside of time, the door to his pocket dimensional was only HIDDEN at the end of time, the dimension itself wasn't. That aside He Who Remains was the being powerful enough to hold the Sacred Timeline together, through space magic, so when he died that hold broke. Even if He Who Remains had died at the end of time, the multiverse popping back into place is an even outside of time, time only exists within a universe.
They could have easily made it so different actors indicate a different universe entirely while the same actors indicate a different timeline
But alas
This is bad for marketing and toys
Here’s how I rationalize it: It’s a multiverse - so infinite universes, and infinite universes similar to one another or parallel universes. In Loki, they reference the “Sacred Timeline”, in which the TVA enforces the timeline for that universe.
My guess is that a higher power - whether it be Kang or a stronger force (not that familiar with the comics haha) - has the power to destroy other universes until only parallel universes with almost identical timelines remain. The TVA’s reach would span across those universes to enforce the sacred timeline to make sure that each universe runs parallel to one another.
In Endgame, I don’t think that they were traveling through time, but between parallel universes with almost identical timelines - which is why their original timeline/past is unaffected when they return.
The TVA is fallible, and there’s a lot of universes to cover, so I would think the standard is as long as the universe’s timeline runs “relatively” parallel to one another, then it’s fine to have some variance. And how much variance that is allowed between universes would be up to Kang/TVA/Higher Power (or writer tbh).
So Sylvie opens up the multiverse (again, as it seems that Kang’s efforts with the TVA were to limit the chaos caused from a previous multiverse war), expanding it to include universes with timelines that are vastly different then the sacred timeline.
Idk maybe that’s contradictory to what’s been established but that’s how I view it.
The sacred timeline is simply just any timeline that results in another Kang, the TVA is essentially a self replicating machine made by He Who Remains whose only function is to predict and prevent any event leading to Kang.
If they are traveling through different timelines in the endgame it's still doesn't make on old cap being there
Honestly? I buy that explanation. It makes most sense
@@ЕльханБолат old cap came from a separate timeline where he lived until Peggy died, then he used the last charge on the watch to return.
@@MrTuas but it's the same problem on the video
He didn't come off from the machine
Just to chime in about the "three Peters issue".
It's only really an issue if they are all somehow meant to be literal variants of *our* Peter.
Now, that might be a confusing sentence for some: "Of course they are variants of our Peter! They are Peter Parker & they're Spider-Man!"
However, let's think about how we're defining variant here, because there's actually two definitions. There are literal variants who are literal variations of your life, spinning off from decisions that you have personally made. And then there are coincidental variants, who share your name & many details of your life, but if you look back through both of your histories, there was no definitive split point. You just coincidentally share a name & history with this person, and whatever timeline split occurred, happened way before either of you were born.
The two other Peters are likely the second variety of variant; They have zero shared history between them, had radically different lives on substantially different versions of Earth & the fact that they are all different ages means that there's no singular event that could have resulted in these three Peters being split from one another.
This might seem like it supports the idea of there being a problem, but only if we don't follow this train of thought to its natural conclusion.
Remember, the timeline-split model of the multiverse isn't limited to the characters we have seen in the MCU. The universe existed billions of years before Tony Stark was even an itch in his father's nuts, and thus, we have timeline splits going as far back as the big bang (maybe even earlier), so the multiverse doesn't simply represent diverging paths in the personal histories of the characters we've observed, but instead, every possible version of reality resulting from any possible divergence stretching back to the beginning of the universe.
Thus, we have our explanation for why it's sometimes the same actor & sometimes a different one. Using the Spider-Man example, any future variant with Tom Holland's face likely diverged from the MCU's version of Spider-Man.
Meanwhile, Spider-Men with different actors, like Andrew or Tobey, came about in a timeline\universe that split off from the MCU WAAAAAY before any of them were even born, and their shared life, history & identity are purely coincidental.
If even a single Peter Parker Spider-Man can exist, it therefore follows that in an infinite multiverse with infinitely diverging timelines stretching back to the beginning of time that every possible version of Peter Parker Spider-Man can & does exist. If you can imagine a version of Peter, no matter how ludicrous, they exist. A lot of them will be variants of the Tom Holland Spider-Man, but there will be universes where a Peter Parker was born earlier & had these foundational events occur earlier as well, and that Spider-Man in turn will have an uncountable number of variants of his own. Not even just referring to Andrew or Tobey at this point, there could be a version of history that enabled a Peter Parker Spider-Man to exist in WWII or in medieval times.
There could even be a version of Peter Parker Spider-Man who has powers & an aesthetic similar to The Atom, and that's because the words for "shrink" & "spider" are swapped in that universe.
At that point, they are definitely not variants of our Spider-Man, but they are still valid in the split-timeline multiverse model, as it is entirely possible for someone called Peter Parker to become Spider-Man at any point in time, if that universe's version of history allows it. In the infinite multiverse, there is no such thing as "too coincidental".
It's quite the rabbit hole to jump down, the more you think about it.
And even if they were all born at the same time & existed in a fundamentally similar reality, all it would take is a different sperm or a different egg to create a different looking Spider-Man, so even ignoring the larger implications of a timeline-split multiverse, differences in appearance are still entirely explainable through very simple means.
And of course, this isn't binary. There could be a non-MCU variant of Spider-Man that still looks like Tom Holland, because again, the infinite multiverse dividing from infinite timelines allows for all possible outcomes. It's not even a case of "all things are possible to happen in the multiverse", but rather, " In the multiverse, all possible things *have* happened". All people have had all faces on all planets in all time periods, somewhere out there.
To put it more simply:
Variations of the MCU timeline = Same Actor.
Timelines that radically diverged far earlier on, but coincidentally still developed a Peter Parker Spider-Man = Different actor.
Timelines that radically diverged far earlier on, but coincidentally still developed a Peter Parker Spider-Man, but also coincidentally got the same face as Tom Holland = Same actor
And this covers the Evan Peters thing as well. In one universe, that face belonged to Quicksilver & in the MCU, it belonged to some dude named "Bohner" who coincidentally got mind controlled into pretending to be Quicksilver for some fucking reason. Honestly, the Evan Peters thing is more needlessly contrived than it is downright broken (as far as the use of his face goes, that is).
This also covers the many wacky universes in Multiverse of Madness, like the paint, cartoon or blocks universe; those splits likely occurred during the Big Bang, where the fundamental rules of reality could have gone in many fundamentally different directions, and thus, all variations of the laws of physics came into existence all at once in a functionally infinite number of universes that then began diverging into their own variations within their own frameworks.
If you want to *really* get nuts, Tom Holland himself could be argued to be a person who coincidentally got the same face as the Spider-Man from the MCU & coincidentally got to play that version of the character in several films, which by this logic, means that all works of fiction are actually non-fiction & all works of fiction involving actors are actually unintentional re-enactments.
Admittedly, this is deeply confusing to explain without visual aids, but I hope the general idea has been communicated here. If divergences in the timeline began at The Big Bang, than all possible realities can exist, and not just the ones directly spinning off from the events of the MCU, and any similarities to the characters in the MCU & their variants are more coincidental than downright broken.
The MCU Multiverse is still hopelessly broken in many other ways, though. Just wanted to explore this particular wrinkle.
That’s a fair point. I hadn’t thought about this until after putting the video up but you’re right. That’s what makes the most sense.
A variant of Tom Holland that looks like him would be from a divergent timeline, not an alternate universe like Tobey and Andrew.
This makes a lot of sense, although, if the MCU is using the timeline = multiverse formula, it means that there are infinite America Chavez, because every possible thing that could’ve happened in her life, really did happen in alternative timelines, therefore diferent universes.
The only way I can see this working with America existing as the only beign on the multiverse, is if multiverse and timeline were diferente concepts, we would have infinite timelines within each infinite universe. You just need to apply a rule, like, every timeline on every universe has an especific number and you can only travel to other universes that have the same timeline number, transporting you to that timeline on another universe (not necessarily the same events occurring, but like, the same number, as in, every branch that happens has a number, so you can only travel to the branchs on the other universes that somehow have the same number - wich is totally possible considering the infinitiness of the situation)
It would explain why there’s only one America Chavez, cause, for exemple, America that appears on timeline “565” (random number) on MoM can only travel and interact into timeline “565” of another universes. Therefore, even though there are infinite Americas, due to timeline branching, they would never interact and never exist to each other (only to the TVA, cause they can travel through timelines).
Anyway, that was me trying to fix one of the millions of problems on the MCU multiverse. Sorry if this got a little confusing, I had a hard time trying to put these ideas into words
@@barbaramorais9351 this is actually an idea they should look into
@@barbaramorais9351 ik theres only one america in the comics but that multiverse has like authorities with actual power (ie the one above all and ppl like them not some dude like kang)
honestly I completely agree, just having different universes instead of small decisions making different timelines would make this whole thing wayyyyyyy less confusing
My theory is that the “scared timeline” is the entirety of the multiverse just every universe is the same. When sylvie kills “he who remains” that’s when each universe begins to deviate and it’s not just the sacred timeline it’s a full on multiverse
Disregarding all the plot holes I chose to believe this. but I’m still confused on how they deviate when sylvie kills “ he who remains” but maybe paradox or loop?
This really just shows how convoluted the MCU has become.
All because they decided to do a bunch of time travel/multiverse mumbo jumbo, write a bunch of stupid rules for them, and proceed to not follow them.
@@elitegamer9310 Agreed! I am glad people are catching up on the tomfoolery of MCU and speaking about it else it is really hard to go against Marvel fan boys. Hope they use multiverse as a tool very very sparingly as possible going forward.
@@GirishManeShine yeah except the dude talking about isn’t keeping up with his own rules either and his shit explanations are just as bad
man, if you find this convoluted I got bad news for you lmao
@@blyat8832 What's the bad news?
I always felt that the Multiverse is like asking forbidden questions about life, like what if there was no World War 2?
What if Hitler was wrong 🤔
@@randomplaces597 sir?
@@Chuked good evening
No internet. No nukes. No space race.
Wait the Ancient One said new timelines are "ONLY" created by infinity stones being removed? I missed that.
Also, I think the point she made about the Time Stone needing to be returned is only because she is self assured (incorrectly hopefully as it no longer exists in the main timeline) that they are doomed without it, not that their reality will destabilize or something.
Is it specifically explained that old man Cap lived out his life in the main timeline? I assumed that he lived it out in a branch timeline and came back to a pinpoint location to return the shield. I don't think it's specified that the only way back to the main timeline is the specific gate left through. What's not to say he conspired with Hank (who developed the baseline of the tech and could easily figure it out) to have him returned through the gate the day before so he could execute the plan and told Bucky beforehand, which would explain why he wasn't surprised in the slightest.
I'm not gonna dispute Loki making things a bit too much, but the way I see the "pruning" system is more that there are ACCEPTABLE timelines which Kang allows and destabilizing timelines that blow up his system. His watch over the multiverse is only aimed at preventing the multiversal war, not eliminating every single timeline. Ultimately he just wants to maintain reality, not to be a power hungry tyrant. It is definitely too messy to be explainable or realistically believable, which is where you just have to shrug and just attribute it to "comic book logic".
The America point is an interesting one, that she must be some sort of special being and have a singular destiny and no free will. Who knows, perhaps she has some hidden origin explaining how she can not create branches.
Wanda was not the good guy at the end of the show, it's a just a doorway to her corruption. Just because Monica comforts her a bit doesn't make her a hero. Wanda is a character that has always been self centered with a shade of good heartedness, which does not make someone "good" aligned. She is neutral as all hell.
Wanda is only seeing those alternate versions of herself through the Darkhold. It is a evil sentient book, why in the hell would it allow her to see realities where Billy and Tommy don't exist or a reality where they were born and Wanda died so she could slip right in? The book is the villain, seems pretty cut and dry to me.
I mean, it's just nit picking all the nit picking but like, this is just comic books and as with reading them my entire life, they are bizarre and you gotta accept some of the mess along with the good stuff.
Yes exactly, what Monica said at the end was just because she could relate to her pain and wasn't making her a hero. And yes she wasn't exactly good by the end, but didn't wanted to learn more about her powers so she could control them, but she still had the loss of Billy and Tommy at heart.
Darkhold manipulated that vulnerable state of her
11:00 This part is so goofy because there's a really simple, basic explanation for this that's become a very popular fan theory about how it all actually works, which is that the TVA doesn't actually prune _all_ timelines and _all_ realities except for one - they only prune timelines that could, through insane butterfly effect shenanigans, somehow lead to another Kang (or presumably another multiverse conqueror) coming into existence. All of the "if you're one minute late to work you get pruned" stuff is part of the lie to hide Kang being behind it all. That makes Fem Loki hiding in different apocalypses make way more sense, since all of her actions are erased before anything she does could lead to another Kang coming into existence, so the TVA can never detect her since their equipment can only see timelines that need to be pruned to prevent the multiverse war. If Marvel had thought things through even slightly, they could've come up with some other explanation like this and prevented all of this confusion (and if it's later stated this _is_ how it all works, then Loki still fails for never bringing it up or explaining it
From my understanding the dark dimension doesn’t work on a universal scale as it’s outside of that, it would be more like for all the infinite universes there’s just the one dark dimension with dormammu trying to eventually control it all.
Why does everyone think that The Ancient One explains the timeline only branching with the infinity stones? She uses the stones as an example. Remove the time stone and their "chief weapon against the forces of darkness" is gone, leaving them defenceless in that new branch. Banner then talks about putting the stone back, which is visualized as removing the branch, but explained as making it so that branch's future continues the same as the Banner's timeline already did.
It's the "Sacred Timeline" view from Loki, where there are, in fact, many many timelines that all follow a similar path, with the branches pruned off.
That's not to say that this video doesn't make some good points about the nature of the multiverse being... messy (to put it politely), but I keep hearing this thing about The Ancient One stating a different set of rules, but she doesn't.
I feel like people also misunderstood the end of Loki, kang explain that he isolated the MCU timeline from the rest of the multiverse, the TVA exist to prevent the MCU Timeline from branching again within the isolated space where it exist. The multiverse wasn't "created" when they killed kang, the multiverse always existed. This also explain why dr strange knows about the multiverse but in his own words " it's something we know frighteningly little"
@@naegling it was heavily implied that he (with the help of Alioth) wiped out all the other timelines.
But I feel the "alternate timelines" version of the multiverse exists in tandem with "alternate dimensions" which are different.
For example, I don't think each timeline has its own Dark Dimension, as time doesn't exist there, so "alternate timelines" would make no sense there.
The Ancient One's "vast multiverse" was mostly referring to these other dimensions more than branching timelines (but she's obviously aware of that possibility too as seen in endgame)
The common misunderstand of what the Ancient One said in EndGame is confusing to me as well. Its really easy to check exactly what the Ancient One says in the movie, and it isn't complicated or contradicting of Hulk's explanation. Neither is Captain America showing up on a bench instead of via the time machine he left with. We don't know exactly how Elderly Captain America gets there, but missing information isn't a plot hole.
Here's the thing: are the general movie audiences capable of grasping the distinction between a multiverse and alternate timelines? It's possible for an alternate timeline to become an established alternate universe after all, look at Age of Apocalypse and 2099, and Gaiman's 1406. Generally alternate timelines don't last, but they can become persistent, basically based on their popularity with readers. And we're dealing with a universe that can become a whole other universe at the drop of a hat, through the actions of just one person, like House of M. This is why I've always preferred DC's cosmology, it's been very consistent over the years, while Marvel tends to just make up new stuff all the time for convenience, so it's actually fitting that the MCU is in the state it is.
The multiverse is literally a concept that’s been so awfully used and managed, that DC has had to reset it like 6 times. The entire concept of a multiverse in my opinion is just not good for these types of stories, due to the sheer amount of implications.
@@irvs5922 DC reset but not necessarily because of anything pertaining to the stories that caused these resets. It's almost always to bring in new readers. The problem DC has is that nowadays we've had wayyy too many events dealing with the multiverse these last couple of years and they always shake up the continuity in bad ways. Before N52 there would be multiverse stories every couple of years Crisis on Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Final Crisis, etc. but ever since Flashpoint(thanks Barry) we've had like 10 events dealing with the multiverse. Doomsday clock, Forever Evil, Convergence, Future's End.
The audience doesn't have to understand it for it to make sense. Better Call Saul mentions laws that no one cares about, but they put in the effort to actually cite the correct legislation. The point is, the audience doesn't have to understand every facet of a show so long at it's internally consistent and thus critic-proof. Because when the writers are lazy, it opens up glaring holes for intelligent viewers who want to make sense of what they're watching
@@sivad1025 I tend to agree, but i don't think legal practice is a good analogy, because that in particular doesn't really matter for having a great scene or story. I watch Legal Eagle, and it's fun to see how they score on legal accuracy., but it never matters if A Few Good Men or A Time To Kill aren't legally accurate, it's the emotions and the characters that sell the story. The law is only ever a plot framework. Now how the universe and superhero physics work is different, it is essential the audience understand the film's rules and that they be consistent, so they can do the math on the fly and know what it means that now Cap can wield mjolnir, for example, without the film stopping to explain it.
@@fusionspace175 I only use that as a reference because Bettet Call Saul is one of the most nitpick-proof shows I've ever seen. The point is that details can be right even if the average viewer doesn't care which does apply to time travel.
I disagree that time travel isn't merely a framework. Everything Everwhere All at Once is fairly vague (and, imo, vague to a fault) on its rules, but it seems consistent. That makes it much more palatable than the MCU and it didn't need to sit down and explain everything
24:44 fun fact, OUR Earth also has a continuity in Marvel, Earth 1218 where superpowered beings cannot physically exist.
I think the Armageddon hiding actually works: The variants that get abducted by the TVA are individuals that will greatly sway how the universe and that timeline proceed in the future, not just every little change that happens. Some changes don’t actually have a greater butterfly effect impact, and Kang only targets those that change history significantly. So going to Armageddon events actually would work because, yes, the locals may run in a different direction or hide somewhere different, the volcano still erupts and they still die, and archeologists finding their remains in a slightly different place doesn’t actually change anything major, at least in Kang’s great plan/sacred timeline.
Kang wants certain major events (absolute points) to take place, so that in the end the multiverse is never discovered or messed with like it’s done before. And me changing what cereal I eat doesn’t mean that Spider-Man is never born.
I understand that the multiverse is theorized to include every little decision, but that’s why even in Loki the sacred timeline isn’t really a super straight and narrow line, it is multiple threads that twist differently, but ultimately follow the same path
Also to address the whole Sylphie starting the multiverse: You aren’t understanding that the multiverse DID exist before Sylphie killed Kang, but Kang condensed it into the sacred timeline it is now. So the concept of the multiverse still exists back then during the first Dr Strange movie. All Sylphie does is bring it back.
Now when I rewatched the first Strange movie in preparation for MOM, I was shocked too to see the Ancient One talk and send Strange on that acid trip. But it would make sense for the Sorcerer Supreme to be aware of the concept. Also I would like to believe she showed Strange multiple dimensions on that trip, which is very different from universes, as they are other planes of reality within a universe. Her referring to them as universes is what I believe is the error in writing, and that’s because they simply hadn’t thought far enough ahead.
Let me say first that all of these explanations are my own I guess head canon, and I understand that this may not be what the writers actually intended. I’m just doing my best to try and make sense of it because I too am a very critical person when watching stuff and it annoys me when they contradict themselves.
Now let me address your concerns about MOM. With America Chavez, I really have nothing other than the fact that maybe she one of the few multiversal beings that there are only one of because of their manipulation of the multiverse. Not sure because not familiar with her character in the comics. So with those beings let’s just say whatever they do will never impact and create a new universe, or else she would be causing incursions left and right. With Strange being able to mess with universes as shown in No Way Home, my only answer is that the spell going haywire wasn’t really their fault and before if they did something crazy the TVA would’ve just stopped them, but since they are potentially gone, or at least not performing their same duties, the multiverse is a lot more unstable and spells that would’ve usually been ok are now a lot more dangerous.
To explain the different appearances of the same character, the parents and ancestors of the character just inherited different genes and so the change in timeline that would’ve created their universe is the change in genes inherited far in the past
The spell going haywire only happened due to silvy killing kang and starting the multiverse again. It was said by Kevin fiege in a interview
I would like to point out that each universe is said to be identical except for only one event or choice happening differently. However, it seems that there is quite a few points of differences among the universes.
@@jaideepshekhar4621 well if they do say something like that, then that’s on them and they’re wrong again cuz no way can they pass that off. I think it’s supposed to be that each universe WAS identical to each other till a certain point, but then from that change or nexus it follows it’s own path, and that could still be close to the original or just goes very crazily different like the Spider-Man movies all being very different. This line of thinking supports their explanation of different timelines being different universes.
Spider-Man 2099 did refer to the MCU as Earth 19999 in Spider-Verse 2: Kilometers Boogaloo.
I think for the Loki timeline issue, the TVA is only preventing timelines that can create other Kangs, so an armagedon would always end that world which wouldn't affect the life of another Kang
To explain this stuff, I use the Dark Dimension and the Mojoverse as my examples. The Dark Dimension is one per universe, where the Mojoverse is one across the Multiverse.
Alright so...
I'll be trying to explain how I think the Multiverse works. The problem isn't that this Multiverse cannot make sense with everything set up so far, just that the movies refuse to explain it. (Which is obviously because Marvel has not bothered to actually make any definite rules themselves)
So here's my personal take on it all:
The Multiverse comes from the fact that infinite universes exist by themselves. Every Universe can either be very similar to the 616 Universe or completely different. At any point in a universe, something can happen differently from how we saw it in the MCU, creating infinite possibilities in the Multiverse.
I believe that separate timelines are the same thing as separate universes. The only difference is, that timelines are only created when something is changed within one universe and aren't created naturally. By that I mean, that one character in one universe isn't taking every possible action every moment, creating a new timeline for every choice, but instead they take just one singular action. Each person does one thing. That's it.
When someone travels through time (like in Endgame) or to a point in another universe (like in Loki) new timelines are created, but other than that, every universe only has the one timeline.
In Endgame, the Ancient One isn't saying that removing an Infinity Stone is the only thing that can create a new timeline. Removing one would just have a very big effect on how things play out in that timeline. For example, the Time -Stone is needed to defeat Dormammu, so if it's gone before that, the Dark Dimension would take over that universe.
The "Sacred Timeline" seems to not just be one universe, but a collection of similar universes. If a universe is similar enough to the MCU we know, then it's a part of the Sacred Timeline. If a universe diverges too much from that, then it's pruned by the TVA.
This would also make it so the multiverse did exist before Loki, it just wasn't as "diverse" before. Every timeline was relatively similar to Universe 616, but there were still a basically infinite amount of them.
This also explains how characters can hide in disasters in Loki. If everything you do will have no lasting impact, then the new timeline you are creating won't diverge too much from the original universe. This means that the new timeline is still part of the larger Sacred Timeline and thus will not be pruned by the TVA.
I believe Kang / the TVA is monitoring the Multiverse via technology Kang invented. It's probably not because Kang is omnipotent or anything like that.
Kang also probably doesn't come from a Universe similar to Universe 616, but a completely different one. This is because otherwise, there would still be multiple Kangs, who then all discover the multiverse on the Sacred Timeline. This would also make sense, since Reed Richards doesn't exist in the main MCU universe as far as we know.
Now onto Variants. This was explained reasonably well in Loki in my opinion, but I'll explain it again here.
Variants are separate versions of the same person in different universes. They can look the same or different, as long as they're still considered the same person, just from different universes. This makes it so the 3 Spider-Men can all look different. Most of the Lokis in Loki also looked different.
Most people have a basically infinite number of Variants, since basically infinite universes exist.
America Chavez is unique however, because there's only one of her. She has no Variants. Her existing in multiple timelines isn't a problem either, since there's only one. There's one America Chavez who always makes one specific decision. That's why there's just one of her.
When it comes to how time travel and stuff works with her... No idea. Honestly don't know. Maybe she just wouldn't be in the newly created timeline? Maybe that would create a second version of her and the two could meet? I really have no way of knowing.
Also, the thing about America being the only being that can open portals between universes: I assume that she's the only mortal, who has the ability by herself without any outside assistance. Wanda and Strange use Magic and Sorcery respectively, while the Watcher doesn't count as a mortal. That's how I'd explain it at least.
There's also a few other random rules set up in different shows and movies.
For example, in What If? we learn that there are specific points in every universe that cannot be changed when creating a branching timeline.
So I don't think the problem with the MCU Multiverse is that it contradicts itself, but that there isn't any single set of rules for the writers to follow. Every one of them probably has their own headcanon on how it all ties together, like I do, which could all technically work. However, the longer this goes on, the bigger this mess will become, until there isn't any semblance of a consistent Multiverse left.
What Marvel really has to do is lay down the ground rules for how all of this works and explain it to the audience in a way that makes sense. Until that happens, it will continue to be a very big problem.
I think that covers everything. If you have any questions about or there's anything that contradicts my explanation, feel free to reply with them I guess.
What you have wrong is in what if.
The reason they have fixed points you can’t chang is because they are a paradox.
Dr strange couldn’t ever save her as the moment she is saved he would no longer exist to save her. It follows the same logic of end game time travel.
1: you can travel back in time(the time stone) by reversing it( only one person of you exist
2: you can travel back in time and save her, but it wouldn’t be your timeline( two of you exist)
I have a question. You said, "Kang also probably doesn't come from a Universe similar to Universe 616, but a completely different one. This is because otherwise, there would still be multiple Kangs, who then all discover the multiverse on the Sacred Timeline. This would also make sense, since Reed Richards doesn't exist in the main MCU universe as far as we know." Why would there only be multiple Kangs if he comes from a "similar" universe as 616? Also by "multiple Kangs" do you mean Kangs within the Multiverse or within the particular Universe he comes from?
How does this tie in with Reed Richards. What makes him exist in the 818 Universe (or whatever that world was called in the 2nd Dr Strange movie) and not the MCU Universe .If it is because of some vastly different timeline event mumbo jumbo, why were neither of these two "pruned" or at the very least flagged?
@@justzaya In Loki, the whole point behind pruning timelines which diverge from the Sacred Timeline, is to prevent multiple Kangs from discovering the multiverse. This would start another multiversal war. (As Kang explains at the end of Loki Season 1)
I'm assuming the "Sacred Timeline" consists of multiple similar timelines (as explained in my original comment). This would however lead to multiple Kangs across the multiverse, thus contradicting the TVA's whole point for existing.
The only way to fix this problem, is to say that there is not a single Kang anywhere on the Sacred Timeline.
My point about Reed Richards is because of the comics. In the comics, Kang is a defendant of Reed Richards, so if Reed didn't exist on a timeline, then Kang couldn't exist there either.
Also, after Loki there can be timelines that are completely different from the 616 universe. This is because at the end of Loki Season 1, the Sacred Timeline diverges into infinite different timelines.
@@_KingoftheEnd thank you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate your way of explaining it, but unfortunately the merging of multiverses and timelines as a single concept leaves me with more questions than any other theory so I don't wanna go on and on with all my other questions. I really hope Marvel is able to commit to one theory and be explicit about it so there's less confusion
My theory regarding Timelines vs. Universes is that the characters like Kang that travel the timelines know that the timelines exist, but they haven't had any experiences with the actual multiverse to know that that also exists. Therefore, they assume that the timelines are the multiverse. If you notice, we haven't actually seen anyone such as doctor strange who knows about the existence of both (We know he could see timelines bc he looked at timelines in infinity war) say that timelines and universes are the same thing. Also, we have never seen a character who has seen the multiverse but not timelines call a universe a timeline. So it seems to make sense that calling timelines universes is just an act of ignorance. (The writers might also be ignorant too).
While i do agree that it’s stupid, that is how it works and has worked forever in the comics. The only real exceptions are alternate universes in different time periods like Marvel Noir for example. My biggest issue with the MCU is them establishing the main mcu timeline as the 616 universe, basically creating a whole new multiverse from the comics, making things even more convoluted.
Exactly, and even Spider-Verse was guilty of this (though they referred to 616 as where Peter B Parker comes from - still wrong though). It’s a lucky coincidence that Earth-838 also isn’t an existing universe. There’s even an interview with Iman Vellani (Ms. Marvel’s actress) where she says she has constant fandom arguments with Kevin Feige over the fact that the MCU is supposed to be Earth-199999. In retrospect, we can hopefully chalk the Earth-616 thing to what the people of 838 refer to the MCU as after they discovered it.
The comic industry is literally failing, so no, it's not working.
@@Gemnist98 True. I would have liked for the MCU to be 199999 that, way we could have the comic universe be canon with the mcu and the mcu be canon with the comics. However this can still be possible. Remember in the comics that the universe resets every trillion years with the big bang (which is how Galactus is born. Normal guy who found a way to survive past that point). So they could excuse it as the universe prior. Its my head canon anyway.
@@citizenvulpes4562 No shit, its been failing on and off for 100 years. Its failing because no one reads, not because of its stories, a second grader would know that.
So, I might be missing something, but I don't actually think that it's ever implied that *every* decision or change creates a branch in the timeline. It's stated that the TVA steps in when someone "steps off their path", and the animations shows a branch created. And while it mentions that the triggering event could be as small as showing up late, that doesn't necessarily mean that *anyone* showing up late would be enough to create a branch. I took this to mean that, *even* a change that small *might* cause the creation of a new timeline. So, technically, there would still be *some* risk of creating a branch by messing around in Vesuvius. But the odds are way lower.
I think the CGI they use to represent the sacred timeline helps represent this. It's not a single line, everywhere you look there are threads that break off momentarily, and then rejoin the bulk. Timelines that are so close to the original that there's no real difference between them. New universes are formed when a change is made that would, in some way, significantly alter the flow of time, even if the event that causes that change is really tiny.
That also helps to waive away some of the weirdness in Endgame. Everything that happened was on sort of... loops and whorls in the main timeline. They (supposedly) managed to keep the timeline mostly consistent, with the TVA stepping in to clean up any unwanted timelines (like the one where Loki escapes). The whole explanation of branching universes from the Ancient One is still pretty contradictory, so I don't really know how to solve that one.
As for Strange, I don't think this necessarily contradicted anything, when seen up there. America Chavez is unique across the multiverse because things she's involved in does not seem to create branching timelines, as part of her powers. So while she can hop from timeline to timeline easily, she never duplicates. Same reason Scarlet Witch couldn't necessarily just jump into the next reality over, where she won, and get her kids. The way you describe it, the multiverse would be so vast as to be ultimately meaningless. Every instant an infinite number of new multiverses would be spawning. But that's not what we're shown in *Loki*. Instead, we're shown a timeline that only branches occasionally. Otherwise, the TVA could never hope to maintain a single timeline. Every instant a branching timeline is allowed to exist, it would be spawning a nearly infinite number more.
It is implied that anything against the TVA’s plan for the person is what causes another multiverse to exist, anything at all.
Also the Chavez stuff makes sense because if other multiverses branch off from one multiverse then she should be in all
the video maker didn't understand loki at all. Branches are only created or pruned if it stops Kangs plan from taking place. There are also seperate universes that follow one timeline which is clearly explained in loki.
His entire confusion on Loki ruins the rest of his points for the rest of the video.
@@Xlore127 No he understands Loki well enough, you are just adding things that the show never said.
It is stated that a path has already been created for the flow of time and if you do ANYTHING different from what you are meant to do according to the created path then you will be removed and the timeline pruned
There are also no separate universes in Loki. The entire point of the show is to make sure that only one universe keeps existing.
@@Microme955 Kang is the one that states that he keeps all things on the path so the moment when loki and sylvie reach him is allowed to happen. and its clearly shown there are other universes because they show the different loki variations. The loki variations wouldn't exist without other universes, but they can all exist on the same timeline, which the show states. timeline = all universes follow same events. Universe = variations of other universes that follow the same events.
Syvlie was only pruned when she attempted to do good things and not be mischievous. If variation universes weren't allowed she wouldve been pruned at birth for being a girl and not when she grew older.
If you watch endgame and loki all of this is clearly shown and mentioned through both.
@@Xlore127 Kang does keep things on the path and once you do anything other than what you are meant to do in the path he created then you are taken and the new timeline you created gets pruned.
The existence of other Lokis does not prove the existence of other universes, it’s just a plot hole. It is never mentioned that there are multiple universes and then so many Lokis just show up and we are now expected to just accept that they are from other universes? That’s crap
Universes exist separate from each other.
Timelines exist (or not, depending on their respective TVA) within each separate universe.
So, there's a paint people TVA that might prevent paint people from creating alternate paint universe timelines, but that doesn't affect the rest of the non-paint people universes. At least that's what I always gathered.
It does need clarification from Marvel.
"Universes exist separate from each other." Why would they?
"Timelines exist (or not, depending on their respective TVA) within each separate universe." Again... why would they? Timelines could easily cross
"It does need clarification from Marvel." Probably won't get one... just consume product then get excited for next product
Honestly one thing MCU producers need to do is read something like Flashpoint with the DC comics. Even though they haven’t really managed a live action adaptation, the whole story of flashpoint gives so many possibilities that they could incorporate with Peter alone, like what if he went to a universe where he never met Stark or hell even if Uncle Ben never died. As much as I adored seeing Tobey and Andrew again, I think that would route could’ve helped make the multiverse less of a jumbled mess that you just have to try to forget the mechanics of.
But the problem I have with hulks explanation is that when you go back to the future after you create a branch timeline, you would travel into the future of that new timeline.
The problem is that they’ve confused it. DC’s multiverse is so much more simple and easy to follow because they are consistent.
Marvel had alternate timelines in Loki & Avengers Endgame, but had alternate universes in No Way Home & Multiverse of Madness.
The problem is that they had Loki explain them as the same thing when they aren’t.
Multiverse is multiple universes with different changes from a main universe. This could be a universe with a near exact history to 616 that is completely changed by a timeline change.
Or it could be completely different like the Spider-Men universes are.
Alternate timelines are alternate realities created by changes in the timeline that are isolated to that universe.
They aren’t the same, but Marvel aren’t being consistent with what does and doesn’t make up the Multiverse and how time travel works.
Now you will have to explain why are they not the same. What distinguishes a universe from another other than the events happening in it?
If i have 2 different universes with the all the exact same events happening except at one point when something happens differently, causing a cascade of events that thousands and billions of years later that eventually leads to lets say one of them being taken over by snakes and the other by frogs.
How will you have labelled the 2 universes before that first change in events happened when they are exactly the same down to the position of the atoms?
Im trying to describe how alternate timelines and alternate universes all mean the same thing because as far as we know, our universe started from an infinitely small point to which they can (theoritically) be called the same, therefore all universes no matter how different it eventually gets an infinite time later, all started as the same universe, and with each possible outcome of events taking place, exists our so called perception of infinite of infinite numbers of alternate timelines/universe.
@@jackinmydreeeam3142 The difference is frequencies. Different universes have different frequencies. That's pretty much all they have to say for fans to accept it.
And that a universe being changed via time travel to end up exactly like another universe could explain convergences.
@@two4328 You can check this guy out, he does a pretty great job at explaining how marvels interpretation of their multiverses work>
ruclips.net/video/MAt0xpQe934/видео.html
Multiverses are fiction, end of story.
Fiction can be anything you want, trying to apply physics to fiction is like trying to explain how Superman can physically exist without breaking conservation of energy.
@@razi_man true but when you try and explain it but don’t add a proper explanation then you’re just shooting yourself the foot.
The different actors playing variants sometimes and not others can be explained just by saying a different sperm won in that time line.
I dont think the multiverse was created when slyvie killed kang. I think it was always there, and the “sacred timeline” meant every universe followed their written path. So the universes lived in harmony and ignorance by not exactly interacting with each other. Then when sylvie killed kang, it allowed them to break into each other
Loki makes a lot more sense when you realise it’s a show about making a TV show, with time travel and dimension hopping treated as equivalent because they are more or less identical writing tropes to allow for plot inconsistencies. Notice, for example, when Loki is being judged (or pitched) for his suitability as a TVA agent (or main character of a TV show) he’s presented with a literal script of all his dialogue, reminding us of how a TV show begins. Owen Wilson is the show runner. The TVA agents are editors who expunge false directions for the plot.
Next time you watch Inception, try mentally replacing every spoken "dream" with the word "movie"
bro that last scream woke up my entire family
8:01 - YES, exactly. This would have fixed the ending. The issue came down to the writers and the directors being at odds with the time travel mechanics (I read this in an article somewhere a long time ago). The writers wanted to give Steve a happy ending, and make him the husband Peggy had all along in the MCU. The idea is that old man cap always existed in the MCU (back to the future rules of time travel). So, its not that he didn't change anything, it's that he was always supposed to be here. He was destined to live with Peggy. That's why they never tell us who Peggy's husband was in any of the other movies. The writers wanted that mystery guy to be Steve all along.
This was absolutely asinine and I hated this ending because it broke its own rules because it wanted that payoff.
Good point about the Armageddon rule in Loki creating new universes anyway, I never noticed this point.
14:17 - No. The multiverse always existed, even with Kang's TVA. What Kang was doing was he was pruning timelines he didn't like. The timelines he did like, he allowed, and that formed the multiverse. By Sylvie killing Kang at the end, it only expanded the multiverse.
23:21 - No. In MOM, they say that dreams are previews into other universes. So, we can make the connection that the only reason our Wanda conjured the kids the way they looked is because she had dreamed about 838 Wanda and saw the love she had. Its not that Billy and Tommy are all magic creations. We can't just assume they are because we don't how how they are created.
But ye, good point on why she just can't make a hex around an uninhabited plot of land and then go nutz.
26:17 - Wow. I totally forgot Mysterio joked about our Earth being 616. That's hilarious.
28:40 - Hahaha. Random Better Call Saul reference, I can dig it.
I can side with you that Phase 4 has been shite in its entirety. I kind of like Far From home, especially Mysterio and the mind fucks, but I HAAATED No Way Home. The fan service and call backs were lackluster, the multiverse rules of the spell that caused all the chaos made no sense and was inconsistent (especially the spell that fixed everything, so what happens now? Do everyone everywhere in all universes forget that Peter was Spider-Man?).
7:00 My thoughts on what the ancient one was saying that removing the infinity stones would create a dark timeline. because removing the time stone for example would have stopped Doctor Strange from defeating Dormamu. Not that removing the stone was the only way to create a new timeline.
Honestly this feels like the problems in the comics. I mean when Marvel went near bankrupt a few years ago they did the thing where the Multiverse temporarily died in the comics.
When that happened there were other comic stories that ended there.
Don’t think that’s meant to mean anything for the movies I just find that funny
This whole video just reminded me that multiverse of madness came out 2 YEARS AGO
Kang SEPARATED the sacred timelines from the rest of the Multiverse. He didn't destroy the Multiverse. He merely separated his sacred timelines from it and hid them. So when he died, everything became exposed and then branched with the rest of the Multiverse leading to characters now being able to jump from one universe to another. Before his death, everything that happened was in the same universe, but different timelines because the sacred "timeline" is, as u could see in Loki, a bundle of timelines, not just one.
Arrowverse does alternate universes pretty well. Although Loki is quite "He who remains" Made sure that All Alternate universes have the same timeline, he made sure all versions of loki are choked to death by Thanos.
I really agree, the thing that made the mcu special was it’s consistency. It wasn’t perfect but just a few continuity mistakes between so many movies is impressively low. And the lack of that painstaking detail in phase 4 was noticeable even if I didn’t know I knew it. I couldn’t put my finger on it but all these movies felt hollow somehow and I think that’s it.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the MCU calling itself the 616 universe means that the comics will eventually fold it self into being about the MCU Universe through a secret wars type event, so as to add brand synergy.
In my personal defense of the whole actions in armageddon events not branching off thing I think the reason is because it never gets the opportunity TO branch off. Yes, Loki being there and freeing those goats caused people to do different things which could, in theory, cause a butterfly effect. But it can't because it has no chance to. All the people there die and no there is no continuing point after that to create a branching timeline which is why the TVA were never alerted. Or at least that's how I see it. But overall great vid!
Yes!!
For example, classic Loki not being detected until he decided to leave his planet
@@herb4243 Exactly! Different actions occurring doesn't branch off onto another timeline if they have no knock-on effects and remain completely isolated
It is crazy how someone wrote multiple drafts of a video without ever actually looking into what they're attacking. If the planet was going to blow up tomorrow with no survivors, whether or not I burn my house down would have no effect on the rest of the universe, it only could of that action had the ability to indirectly leave this planet.
I would argue that alternate universes could just be timelines with very wide branches. So one timeline could look very different from an other but still share a distant origin point.
Also I interpreted Loki's "Sacred Timeline" as a multiverse being actively constrained to a consistent list of events that still had noticeable differences here and there.
the thing is even in Marvel comics, this is how their multiverse operates, an example is Days of Future's Past is an alternate timeline that evolved into it's own universe. Also the Marvel Multiverse has been super complex and convoluted as a single universe could be considered a multiverse in itself depending on your definition as like the main comic universe is made up of multiple planes an realms some which are universe in size which won't be effected by time travel in deep space. basically marvel use branching universe theory more so than linear universe theory which stuff like Back to the Future uses.
Explains why marvel comics sucked so bad
@@sharan9993 Not really? If anything the comics multiverse is a lot easier to understand than the movie’s.
Exactly. Like he is confused about alternate timelines and ignores dimensions as part of the multiverse, when the marvel multiverse has included those for decades. Or being surprised that there are different looking variants of the same character, when it’s established earlier how that’s the case.
Yeah I always loved how in "Loki" the infinity stones are paper weights and its known the they are useless outside their universe yet in Disneys Marvels "What If" series Ultron was jumping from universe to universe with the same infinity stones using them and not losing his powers.