Why did you guys spend half the video explaining what the MCU is instead of actually talking about multiverse fatigue. And the random tangent about Star Wars which has nothing to do with the topic lol. I usually like your guys videos but this one said literally noting of value.
Yea exactly but even worse cuz comic books cost like less then a dollar to produce... But they're betting 200 million dollars+ per movie. Smh it's gonna bite em in the butt
@@alexanderkononov1862 it’s too long. The 2 hr 20 min run time isn’t justified, they needed to edit it down a half hour or so. Most animated films are less than 2 hrs. but I guess just fell in love with everything they do, it was exhausting to watch.
The biggest problem in the MCU (besides bad writing) is easily the power creep. They’ve put themselves in a position where each new baddy has to threaten more than the last, from city to world to universe to multiverse. Not only this, but they arent willing to dedicate the time to make it feel right. Thanos took like a DECADE to build up to, and yet we were supposed to buy Kang or whatever else as a multiversal threat
It's like the Netflix show issue, where they don't plan things out beyond the first season of a show, but want it to be a continuous arc across the show's entirety, and so every new season just gives a bigger and badder villain who was (plot twist!) in control the whole time 🤯🤯, and it's just clear that the writing is bad and they're running out of content.
Yeah but you kinda have to do that. If the sequel takes a drop down, you know the hero can win so there's no stakes. You either have to nerf the hero or spit up the team to do that but even then it's not going to feel like a good continuation of the story. It'd be like if a trilogy went from destroying/saving a country to destroying/saving the world to destroying/saving a city. People just aren't gonna care cause they know it's basically a non issue
@@maxbracegirdle9990 or end the hero’s story and start fresh with a new one, like Cassian from Andor. Ik marvel is on their multiverse kick, but there’s no need to treat the future of marvel as a continuation of what’s already happened. Let the heros of the early phases have their win imo
@@maxbracegirdle9990 You don't though. Defeating a villain doesn't necessarily mean that a hero needs to get objectively stronger, or that in the sequels the stakes need to get higher. Sometimes, a villain can be just as powerful as the villain before it, but with different attributes or targeting different weaknesses within the protagonists. Believe it or not, it doesn't always need to be about saving everybody, and a good story shouldn't need that to create tension, suspense, or urgency. Sometimes, it's about coming up with creative, thought-provoking solutions instead of "punch bad guy until he dies" every time.
I never realised the Multiverse of Madness writers didn't see WandaVision before writing it, but that movie makes so much more sense now. Moral of the story, don't let one part of your story directly contradict the previous part!
I was also really confused about why there is a large multiverse in Dr. Strange, yet in the Loki show, all other timelines/universes are deleted… so I wonder if that discrepancy exists for a similar reason
The youtubers intentionally misled you there. They didnt watch it because the episodes werent finished being edited but they read all the scripts and had people work with them to make sure everything lined up.
@@darkithnamgedrf9495 id blame that more on the director leaving and waldron having to scramble to write a new script late into production over the idea that he didnt know any of what happened in Wandavision.
@@madcracker8077believe it or not people went into Endgame having watched maybe 1-2 marvel movies in their life. It's fine. Watch what you want, don't watch what you don't. However, the more that you do watch the more appreciation and understanding you'll have of the big picture, character arcs, callbacks, etc. It's not mandatory viewing.
@@delycan4912 Some people like me prefer to have the full picture when engaging with a movie, tv or book series. Even if book 1 isn't really necessary to understand the story in book 2, I'm not going to skip it. Some people HAVE to even if you "literally don't".
BIG ANNOUNCEMENT: as we uploaded this video, Tony started to pack up his PC because he’s officially moving to LA!! We will finally be living in the same place again and can’t wait to start making this newer format more frequently. Thank you everyone for the support so far it has meant the world
I think one of the things that the Spiderverse movies do well is, while they do have a multiverse as a core aspect of the story, it feels CONTAINED. When I watch those movies, I don't feel overwhelmed when they start talking about the multiverse, because the way it's handled in the story keeps it contained and relevant to it.
@@CureSmileful Yes and no. They do talk about how a multiverse needs to work well with the plot and help create a cohesive story, but what I'm saying is the multiverse itself in Spiderverse doesn't feel as loose as the other ones. I don't feel like I have to watch a bunch of content or hope that Dingus McBungle doesn't become a relevant character with their own movie later on, because it's contained to "this is the spiderverse with a bunch of different versions of Spiderman" and that's it.
There’s no point to the multiverse in those movies except for fan service, just like the rest of them. The whole protect the canon message was completely ignored by the main characters at the end so that was irrelevant. Miles had almost no character development through the movie, and they reduce the main Peter Parker’s personality down to “I have a baby for comic relief”
@@nman551 you could watch the last 10 minutes of across the spiderverse and you’d be perfectly caught up going into the 3rd movie. It was a good art piece, but it was a horrible pointless story.
I just love the repeat cycle of Disney throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at every production and expecting people to gargle it up like we’re cats wanting catnip
You'd think they could throw more of those hundreds of millions of dollars into writing and have more success, no? I imagine it's a lot cheaper to pump out movies that are good enough to keep people coming back. And I imagine it's cheaper to spend a lot on great writing and then have okay animation, rather than the other way around.
Except that's exactly what you did for 15 years. Connected universes are bad for film, bad for art, and they gotta go. They think they can do that, because that's exactly what they've been doing from the jump. Same movies over and over and over and over, eating them up.
Yeah Guardians of the Galaxy 3 was probably the first MCU movie I really liked since Endgame because it focused on the characters and their relationships and wasn't trying to set up the next team up movie that won't even be made for another few years.
@goblinjr.4810 Smart move for DC. Unlike with Marvel where you're forced to watch every show & movie to not miss anything important. It such a chore nowadays.🙄
@@KeeperProtector who’s forcing you to watch all the shows? It’s certainly not to be able to understand what’s going on in the movies, because almost all of the shows thus far have been inconsequential the movies.
One thing you guys didn’t talk much about is how these movies feel very homogeneous. They’ve evolved to be as hard to keep up with as comics but without telling risky stories that comics tell because the budget behind making a big budget movie means they’re not willing to do something weird or make a statement out of fear of audiences not agreeing.
Homogeneous is a good word for it. And I think the fact everything they said about Thor Ragnarok was acutally about Thor Love and Thunder supports that pretty well.
THANK YOU for not blaming the writers and cgi artists. It takes time to make something great, and when people call writers and cg artists “lazy” it just validates the unreasonably intense working conditions they live under. It makes the solution to make them “work harder”, when the real problem is that they’re given TOO MUCH work and too little time, while staffing is cut short to save money.
@@greyfire64The issue there isn't the writers. Yes, we can definitely point the finger at the horrible, forced dialogue. But if you've noticed, that's been a pretty much universal issue with most movies/games/media the past few years. At that point, it's no longer a writer issue, but the directors/producers/marketing analysers who have told writers that they have to write these cheesy stories. For some reason, the people behind the scenes have decided cringe dialogue/forced plot points are what sells. And they do seem to be right, people watch it anyway.
@@greyfire64 the thing is that a lot of the times what the writers write isn't what the studio wants to sell, so, they need to keep making more and more scripts until the studio is happy with it, which can easily devolve into a mess. i'm not quick to jump on the writers' throats for bad writing because a lot of the times, the suits are the ones who actually sign it off to be made,
You can be a good writer AND work under pressure and expectations of the studio. It's not impossible. Look at GoTG 3. It's also in the Phase 4. They were also forced to adhere to the pre made universe but they managed to make a good movie. I'm sorry but there are no excuses to be made for writers of most Phase 4 MCU products.
yeah I think the most damning part for me is the Wandavision > Dr Strange thing. How can the writers have been expected to do a good job with the character if they can't have even known what Wanda just went through to get her to that point? I think that definitely should have been a wake up call for Marvel that they are moving way too fast with these projects.
I didn't know about any of that before seeing this video. What a shit show of an idea. "You don't know who this character is, but can you write her into your movie? Thanks" Yikes.
They definitely should have accommodated more time between projects. Like, if ‘Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness’ was delayed by a whole year, the writers could have had more time to watch ‘WandaVision’ as research before developing the movie’s script.
@@stormtraitor6545Even with time I feel like there’s still a weird disconnect - Endgame didn’t care about Agent Carter, for example. There’s a weird deal where they want TV shows to be considered part of the story but also only somewhat.
If that's the case, how come the latest Spider-man multiverse movie was a success? As far as I know, there's only been three or four multiverse films compared to the hundreds of Zombie movies of the 2010s
@@GESSO217 Three Spider-Verse films, Avengers: Endgame, Spider-Man No Way Home, Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness, Everything Everywhere All At Once, and The Flash all feature "multiverse" elements, so that's 8 films in the past 5 years, not counting the TV shows that also include that theme.
Same with superhero fatigue, people have been so bored with phase 4 in the past couple of years, but then GOTG3 came out and it was actually a good movie with self-contained story and sold very well too. So it's not so much as superhero fatigue (while it's definitely there due to the amount of so many of them coming out each year), it's more boring trash movie fatigue that happens to be in the superhero genre.
The thing I hate about multiverses nowadays is that they're basically just used as a substitute for character development and planning that should go into cinematic universes. Look at the early MCU, the reason Infinity War (not a multiverse movie but it follows the same principle) or No Way Home were cool was because they had took the years necessary to establish the characters and let us connect with them. With the Flash, they didn't even bother with the character development or setup, they just showed a few "familar but different" characters and called it a day. If you're going to do a multiverse story just do what the Spiderverse movies do and have fun with it
"The thing I hate about multiverses nowadays is that they're basically just used as a substitute for character development and planning that should go into cinematic universes" Well it could work depending on the execution.
@@dylansharp8471 yea I kind of hastily made this comment and lost my point halfway through. It's just that a lot of franchises spring at the multiverse idea and completely fumble it so it'd be nice to get one that actually works y'know?
I mean, as someone who generally doesn't like superhero movies, I did really love Guardians of the Galaxy. Then they made Quill meet Thor, an ancient mythological Norse God. And wimpy bitch Hawkeye. Nobody can tell me that's canon. Not a fan, not the creators, not even God himself.
@@Subpar1O1 I get what you mean though, multiverses much like any story really but especially when multiple of the same characters are involved, need some pre established character lore and not just cameos or fan service
@@Subpar1O1 what makes the idea of a multiverse fun is that there are multiple characters that you connect with, but never able to meet. a crossover that you didn't know you needed, but is so exciting because you want to know what will change when the worlds collide. but between aliens, excessive cgi, and ridiculous plots, superheroes are losing their relatability and the human aspect of storytelling. spiderman is popular because he's literally just a guy and trying to live his life while also save the world. instead of them being just people, they're the most powerful, and then you have to keep inventing bigger threats for them to face to keep the narrative going, since they don't have regular people problems. marvel creates the most flashy, impressive movies but they can't rely on fx to tell stories without it getting old
This is why moon knight is my fave post-endgame marvel story - I get why comic fans might have wanted something different but it was just so nice to jump into some new characters without having to draw a flow chart to figure out where they fit 😅
Exactly! It feels like its own thing without no reference to other marvel movies or shows. (Excluding the FATWS reference on the side of the bus in episode 1 but it's very blink and you miss it and has no effect on the story) Plus Moon Knight is really cool and the show got me into reading the comics
one promising thing is there are stories out there without super heros. comic books even have way more stoylines that are way more appealing. the superhero is dead. (or at least it should be)
there's currently only one multiverse I'm interested in right now, and it's the Spider-verse. They don't just try and say "Oh these movies are connected, isn't that wacky?", they actually focus on the multiverse as a concept and how it can come in danger.
Nah, it's just going down the fan service route. The fact that there is live action scenes of other spider-man projects and a "please clap moment" for Donald Glover shows that they are going down that route. The first Spiderverse movie was a nice coming of age story while still being able to pull off another spider-man origin story. While also being self aware and lampooning the Spider-man IP. Spiderverse 2 feels like the flanderization of the Spiderman story with relaying so heavily on the multiverse to bring in fan service and how literally anything can be spider man now. Out of all Spider-man projects, Sam Raimi's trilogy holds the most weight. It's its own self contained character driven story that best shows what it means to not just be Spider-man but being your own person as well.
@@Max25670 To me it feels like Across the Spiderverse is (spoilers below) Attacking the traditional Spider-Man tropes and trying to make its own identity away from every other spider man story. The way I see the multiverse in Spiderverse is not as the "everything is canon now" trope to just loosely tie together each series, I think they brought in every single spider man to contrast to Spiderverse's Miles Morales. It's 1 out of a crowd of essentially the same people. They use it to their advantage to play more with the idea of who Spider Man is, and to further develop Miles as his own character
@@fink_rat I don't know, Miles will always be a cheap copy in my eyes, he is only watched by the fans or is relevant when he is in crossovers, i mean, he is not even the original Spiderman of his universe, the only thing different with him and Peter is that Peter is a nerd and him a Hip Hop Boy (the characther as a whole) I beliebe that if in this next movie he doesn't do something to distance himself from the shadow of Spiderman, like what Jason Todd or Dick Grayson did, and have his own name and identity as a superhero, people will forget about him eventually
@@mateoreyes6921”hip hop boy” bro what the fuck are you talking about? I don’t wanna accuse you of being racist, but like, how else are we supposed to interpret this😭
@@mateoreyes6921late but i doubt that will happen. The spiderverse movies are considered the best movies of the spiderman franchise by many, many people. Spiderverse is also remembered for revolutionising the animation industry and paving a way for animated movies to be more stylistic. So even if you dont think Miles is a unique character, i doubt he will be forgotten.
when we're in elementary school like the first thing we learn is that stories have a beginning, middle, and end. it feels like now stories are build to have a beginning, a middle, a middle, a middle, a middle
I do think after Endgame they should've just done some self contained movies that introduced and developed the new characters with only tiny hints to something bigger and the series should've just been smaller scale stories focused on the side characters so if you don't want to watch them you don't miss major plot elements. Just feels like they rushed into the new phase way too fast with no cool down after Endgame
They did do largely self contain marvel movies/ shows like Shang Chi, Eternals, Falcon and Winter Solider, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, Ms Marvel, She Hulk, and yet ppl onsist online these movies/shows don't lead to anything important in the larger Multiverse Saga
Honestly my favourite thing from phase 4 was Werewolf by Night, just a solid short owe to b&w hammer horrors, it was probably also because I forgot it was a marvel movie 5 minuets into it
Yeah if you compare the amount of marvel properties that came out each year in phase 1 vs phase 4 and 5 it’s insane. They should stick to 1-2 movies and tv shows every year instead of the 4-6 they have currently
When I was in high school/middle school I collected comics with a passion, especially Marvel. Wolverine, X-Men, X-Foce, New Mutants, Excalibur, etc. Also, Punisher, Ghost Rider, and whatever else that looked interesting (even the occasional DC title). I loved the relatable characters the epic stories, lore, artwork. I had my favorite writers, illustrators. And then after about 8 years I almost completely stopped. It's not that I stopped liking comics, but I realized that typical superhero stories NEVER END. Why was I spending tons of money on something that will never have a satisfying conclusion? It just goes on and on and on. Today, I will occassional pick up a "serious" graphic novel or limited run series, but I'm done with perpetrual super heroes. MCU as we know it should have ended after Endgame. Almost everything else feels watered down.
@@mechanwhal6590 in the words of mr krabs: "I LIKE MONEYY!!". It's like product companies that make their products INTENTIONALLY BAD so that people need to keep buying replacements. There's no profit in making something good that can be consumed once, gotta rope people in and enslave them to the whims of the content-machine. This is why I have so much respect for indie productions nowadays, you got actual artists that actually want to push the boundaries of an art-form, rather than grubby corporate pigs that just care about seeing numbers go up.
this is my first time on this channel and it wasn't until 17 and a half minutes in i realized i was watching two different people discussing this and not one person who edited themselves in as a double and talked with them
This is why I enjoyed guardians of the galaxy 3 so much. There were no giant MCU implications it was just a good story about the guardians of the galaxy I forgot about the MCU as a whole watching that movie and I loved that.
Guardians 3 is best project and doesn't involve multiverse same with Wakanda Forever and those two films were a fresh breather from the shitty multiverse stuff we got.
I really like how the entire movie felt like a big middle finger to the MCU in general. No characters pointlessly died, and they were all able to finish their own stories without interference from other projects (Besides Gamora obviously, who’s treatment was the whole reason why Gunn made the movie in the way he did). The movie ended with a dance scene, completely outside of the norm for the MCU. The movie was a great ending to a great trilogy, and personally where I’m finishing my time with the MCU for the foreseeable future.
James Gunn is actually a good filmmaker though, he creates all the Guardians of the Galaxy films as films you can watch without watching anything else in the MCU including the other Guardians of the Galaxy films, they just connect in smaller ways like the age of Groot for example.
I loved that the High Evolutionary wasn’t a huge threat that would rip apart the fabric of reality if gone unchecked. He’s just an arguably terrible person who needs to be stopped not only because of the atrocities he’s committed, but also because he’s an obstacle stopping the Guardians from saving one of their own.
The problem with multiverses for me is that aside from Spiderverse which still focuses primarily on story and characters, the other multiverse storylines just exist to blind people with nostalgia by bringing back actors from past movies that people constantly try to say were always good and establishing them as part of the grand scheme of things without any effort put into why and if it makes sense.
nah because Spider-Verse does that too, there have been plenty of bad multiverse projects that are far less guilty of this then Spider-Verse. Crisis on Infinite Earths on the CW had a few cameos, but most of the plot relevant variants were original creations of the show, such as the Kingdom Come superman and batman (obviously adapted from the comics but not directly carrying over from a previous property). Even the Smallville cameo didn't overstay its welcome and overall Crisis handled the multiverse stuff really well. It just wasn't that good from a plot perspective after the first few parts. People really need to stop trying to narrow down the problems with multiverse stories to something about the way the multiverse is handled. the problem isn't multiverse stories, it's just bad stories.
Yeah honestly it's one thing to expect people to watch previous movies in a series (original Avengers, Infinity War/Endgame, etc) and another thing to expect them to have knowledge of movies that weren't even in the same cinematic universe lol. Like imagine watching No Way Home and not having watched either the Tobey McGuire or Andrew Garfield movies. Two random dudes would show up with built-in applause breaks to resolve 2/3 of the movie's central conflict and experience character arc payoffs that the viewer would have 0 setup for. It's exciting in the moment if you're in the know, but there's no real guarantee that the average viewer even knows these other movies are part of the required reading. I got a taste of this with the Daredevil cameo in that movie. Some dude I'd never seen before showed up for like 2 scenes, inserted himself into the plot, then dipped, leaving me with the feeling that I guess I was supposed to know who that was, but at the time I had no clue lol. Sure, not movie-ruining by any means, but that was just a small cameo role and I still found it jarring. It had to be way more confusing for the people who saw unknown cameo characters stick around for the whole last third of the movie lol. Not to say you can never have moments of fanservice in movies, I guess, but just that it's a potentially alienating move to let them impact the main plot. Done poorly, this seems like a trend that'll weaken a story as much as any Deus Ex Machina resolution would.
And wich movies are those? Flash? Multiverse of madness barley had any cameos 🤔 Nvh? That did its Sam Raimi characters justice...Across the spiderverse was great...hmmm
@@ahoge734 it wasn't a major issue or anything, I just remember it confusing me at the time lol, though maybe not everyone would have the same reaction
Something you didnt mention is that for people that didnt watch the boba fett show, the last time we saw baby yoda was when he left with luke, and then in the next season of mandalorian he is back in the show like nothing happened.
Book of Boba Fett and Mando S3 were so messy with trying to stand on their own. They were both trying to tell too many stories at once and felt so unfocused. The only things I really remember from either of those is the character cameos 😭
I literally paused the ep and googled it, I was so confused during that first ep. People said Book of Boba Fett wasn't great, and I had no reason to think I'd need to watch it to keep watching Mandalorian (honestly I'm not a huge Star Wars buff anyway and only watched Mando bc S1 was so well received), so I skipped it, then got blindsided by the S3 opening. Why they chose to make the arc that drove the entirety of S2 functionally meaningless in the first place is beyond me, but to do it in a different show is like, next-level poor decision making lol.
As usual, when something is really good and it's successful, producers looking for the next sure thing draw the wrong lessons from it, and try to reproduce its most superficial trappings instead of making something good.
Overly Sarcastic Productions has a great video about this topic and one of my biggest takeaways from it was how expanding the universe can ironically make the story feel like it matters less, a problem perfectly exemplified by the MCU
it occurs to me that a "multiverse" is just today's version of time travel. terminator, bill and ted, back to the future, there was a time in the 80s and 90s when sci-fi writers had one awesome idea that the public couldn't get enough of. later, think of how popular the matrix got, and how many stories about messing with what is real got told. this isn't a new phenomenon, its just the latest in pop culture catching up to philosophy or science or whatever.
These are *all* old ideas in print science fiction (and superhero comics!), but there are these events when Hollywood writers go from thinking they're too esoteric for the public to understand, to thinking the public can't get enough of them. And they all jump on the bandwagon. I think, this time around, they were just pulling the wrong lesson from the praise for Into the Spider-Verse. And maybe Rick and Morty. Of course Rick and Morty grew out of a parody of Back to the Future, so I guess these trends are all connected.
My husband and I aren't big comic or superhero fans but we were casual enjoyers of going to see Marvel movies in theaters and stuff. Since Endgame, literally the only time we watch any Marvel movies is on a long flight where they happen to be offered for free viewing.
Man, when the MCU first started it was so much fun, the first iron man movie has a special place in my heart and I've seen every movie since with my dad, but once we finished endgame I was like "ok they finished the stories I've been watching for ten years, I'm done" and I haven't seen a marvel movie/show since and don't plan on ever seeing one again
@@luismedrano6680 you understand that there's a difference between watching a movie and watching a RUclips video discussing a trend that appears in multiple pieces of media right?
honestly, the onslaught of all these shows and movies in marvel have really turned me off trying to get into marvel. the multiverse aspect has made me even more apprehensive about watching. thanks for talking about this, feels like every show wants to be multiverse now lol
Honestly, if you want you can just watch the movies or shows that interest you. If they have prerequisites it's usually pretty obvious from looking what characters are on the poster, or it isn't a big deal
I loved Guardians of the Galaxy 3 because it focused on the guardians. It left no piece to connect to the MCU (apart from the team breaking up and a new ish team comes in the place). But it wrapped this part up. It could've been a stand alone movie. And I appreciate it
When my friends wanted me to go see End Game in 2019 I said no because, at that point, the only Marvel movie I had seen in the last ten years was one of the iron man movies. I can’t even imagine how hard it would be for someone to get into it for the first time now, which, mind you, is only FOUR years later.
Right! I haven’t seen a Marvel movie in 6+ years, and I keep wanting to start watching them, but at this point the idea of trying to figure out where to start, what to watch, in what order, just sounds exhausting.
@@luismedrano6680ou shouldn't have to treat going to a movie like you're studying for an exam. I didn't have to do a cram sesh on everything Frank Herbert ever wrote to enjoy "Dune," follow its plot, or get invested in its characters and world, and I'm saying that as someone who's already read all the books and was following the development of that project for years. To use a more recent example I went into "Nimona" completely blind, having no knowledge whatsoever about the long-running webcomic/graphic novel it's based on, its characters, or its world, and I was completely entranced by it. Most people simply don't care enough to read the wiki or watch hours of recaps just to figure out what's going on in what's supposed to be a simple summer blockbuster. And I think this is part of the problem: Marvel is trying to make projects that can only really return on investment if they bring in massive crowds of casual fans, but with story structures and distribution plans that really only work for the small niche of obsessive superfans. Comics can get away with telling massive cosmic stories that appeal to that small, dedicated audience because comics as a medium are relatively inexpensive to produce: when each entry costs hundreds of millions of dollars you have to get more focussed and strip things down.
I saw endgame in theaters, the only marvel movies I had seen before that was the first avengers movie and the first captain America movie. It was confusing but I didn’t pay for the ticket lmao
I really like this videos. They are never coming from a place of hate, but genuinely love for a thing they like and are just tired that is being mistreated. Plus Tony and Eddy are really funny
the most frustrating thing to me was that before multiverse of madness (which was objectively terrible wtf sam rami) you didn’t NEED to watch the tv shows to understand what was happening. but in multiverse of madness you don’t know what is going on with wanda and who are those kids and why is she upset about them and all of that unless you had paid for disney+ to watch those shows. that is just so obviously a money hungry grubbing tactic and it made me hate the tv shows (even the ones i liked such as loki)
I'm at the point where maybe the best way to get me interested in a media project/ franchise is tell me it's ending(ed). Knowing something has an end it was building to instead of going on forever makes me trust a story far more.
Not to mention the disappointment of investing in a show or franchise, then it turns to shit part way through. I doubt there are many new people getting into the first GoT TV show since everyone on Earth knows the ending sucked.
Yeah, I got interested in watching Succession because it's over and people didn't hate it after. There's no reason for me to spend hours on a show, just to end up hating it...
This has been my thought process for the past couple years. Stick the landing and it was all worth it. I refuse to ride a ride that has no sign of stopping.
It's not a case of multiverse fatigue, it's a case of multiverse stories that are written terribly fatigue. Across the Spider-Verse proves that multiverse movies can be great if they are written well.
The comic books have done this several times over the decades and maybe the legal issues with copyrights and different companies having intellectual property over different characters is easier to get past with a comic book story that is only a few issues long. Maybe 100 million dollar movie has more complicated legal logistics than the comic book crossovers but I am wondering if there is going to be a MOVIE that combines the Marvel and DC heroes? Its not as strange as you might think because it has been subtly hinted at at least twice (maybe more, I did not see every movie but AT LEAST twice). 1. In the Toby Mcguire Spider man Superman was MENTIONED when Toby's aunt told him "You are not Superman you know" 2. In the ETERNALS a child asked one of the characters if he was Superman. Are the DC heroes fictional characters in the Marvel universe? It seems to go in only one direction as I have never seen a Marvel character mentioned in DC.
everything everywhere all at once - and I know it's a bit separate because it's not a superhero movie or a part of a franchise- is also an incredible multiverse movie that proves that point! I think on top of bad writing it's also just tiring to have to watch every single connected movie to understand the newest one coming out.
@@Zurround in the cw flash show I know cisco makes a hulk reference at some point. I'm sure there's probably more references but I haven't kept up with the arrowverse in years, I just remember people making a big deal about it when it happened. I don't necessarily think that these references allude to a possible crossover, I feel like dc and marvel are so competitive that it's become increasingly unlikely for it to happen- especially on-screen. i know they've always been competitors but they at least seemed more amicable in the 70s-90s, which is when they had the crossovers you mention; they even had trading cards. dc has done crossovers with other publishers since then but marvel very rarely does so, probably because of them being owned by disney? anyways it's a cool idea but I don't see it happening (unfortunately)
Nah at this point it's multiverse fatigue. I'm sure I'm not the only one that doesn't give af whenever multiple universes are mentioned now, it's the new fad like zombies in the early 2010s
@@bee.ok666 I am fascinated with the idea of different stories and characters being in the same fictional universe together. I count MULTIVERSE connections as the same fictional universe from a story standpoint even though scientifically a multiverse is different from a universe. You mentioned the "arrowverse". It is connected to several other shows and movies in a multiversal sense due to the Crisis on Infinite Earths storyline. I am trying to figure out if due to their own multiverse stories if the current DC movie franchise is connected to the arrowverse. I did not see the Crisis episodes, only what was posted about it on RUclips. Maybe Mike Keaten was Batman on that show? It is a HUGE STRETCH and might not be official but in one brief scene the "Earth" of the late 1960s Batman show was shown during Crisis on Infinite Earths and the actor for Robin was shown as an elderly man who was retired from crime fighting (sadly the Batman actor passed away, Adam West, maybe they made that part of the story, that that universe's Batman was gone). AND in the newest FLASH movie when he was doing some hybrid of time travel and multiverse travel other versions of Batman and Superman (and a different Flash) were shown and it was kind of a dreamy montage but I remember for maybe a few seconds of screen time seeing the Adam West version of Batman. If so it might be technically true that the Arrowverse and the DC movies are connected if they both take place in the same multiverse as the 1968 version of Batman.
Some of the best multiverse work I have watched (as a child and looking back realizing how well-crafted it is now) was the DC animated series that included Batman the Animated Series, Superman the Animated Series, Justice League/Unlimited, Static Shock and Batman Beyond. It started with Batman and the writers added to the universe by making Superman and testing the waters within the animated solo shows with teamups between characters before premiering the actual Justice League show. They childhood cartoon but some of the themes and plots were really memorable and impactful, not to mention they had gotten amazing voice actors (RIP KEvin Conroy).
14:52 Christian Bale was in Thor: Love and Thunder, not Ragnarok, but I don't blame you mixing up the two with how many Marvel movies there are now and how forgettable some of the recent ones are
Studios flooded the market and cut corners and made bad decisions to fit the pace of release. Executives are killing franchises that could have lasted a lot longer in order to make a quick buck. So while we are fatigued as an audience, it's because the company chose to overwhelm us with lower-quality stuff than what we originally got. I don't have multiverse fatigue, I have cash grab fatigue.
I think for me the final hit was Loki. What's weird is that I *really* liked Loki, like it's probably one of my favorite things marvel has put out even if it probably could have been executed slightly better. But they just did absolutely nothing with it, and now it feels like it might as well not be a part of the canon. If you're going to make a multiverse im invested in, at least make it consistent.
This is why I like the Monsterverse approach: the movies are loosely connected, there's one every two years, and it features Godzilla and a bunch of monsters punching each other in the face. In other words: they don't saturate consumers, provide a self-contained experience and deliver on what they promise.
@@julioagua The recent Godzilla movies: Godzilla (2014), Kong: Skull Island, Godzilla: King of the Monsters and Godzilla vs. Kong. The next one is Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire.
Same issue happened in comic books for me as well. I would get really invested in a specific line and story arcs and then suddenly it all gets dropped and changed to fit "universe event #8766". For instance, Straczynski's Spider-Man (which was one of my favorites) run was infamously mandated to make some awful narrative decisions to fit the Civil War story that still haunt the character. And Peter David's irreverent and hilarious reboot of She Hulk was also completely destroyed by a forced inclusion into Secret Invasion, and all the storylines were dropped for it. The idea is cool that characters can intermingle and share a world but it gets to a point where half of what you consume is just setting up for the next event and individual characters matter less. And the styles become so homogenized when comics (and comic movies) used to allow individual writers, illustrators, directors, etc put their own spin on things. Mainstream comics (and now movies) used to allow for different tastes to be enjoyed with seperate stories but now if you're not interested in the bigger universe plot then there really isn't much for you.
love your point on JMS's Spider-Man run, I think it rings so true! The choices from Civil War and particularly One More Day are definitely still haunting current Spider-Man comics, especially with an editorial team that attempts to antagonize MJ constantly, while committing general character assassination frequently. It makes things like Spider-Verse so bittersweet because fans love to see Peter thriving and growing up, but the mainline "Amazing Spider-Man" comics refuse to even glance in the direction of a Peter Parker who has the maturity of his pre-2008 counterpart....
I mean the choices in Civil War itself were handled amazingly and everything about the ASM Civil War arc was basically perfect. It was just them undoing all of it in OMD along with decades of character development that caused problems.
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 I really did not like what they did with Peter in civil war. In a vacuum it was good if you consider the CW story by itself. But in his own comic he had the best situation ruined by it. I loved seeing Peter with MJ and as a High School Science teacher. I think it was a way for Peter to be an adult while still maintaining what made Spider-Man great. That even as Peter he helped people and he still struggled with money and personal while being a superhero. And he was actually allowed to be an adult and a version of himself matured from years of stories. But then he had to drop everything interesting about his own story to basically be Tony Stark's son and the face of the unmasking initiative and I feel like it ruined his personal arch as an individual character. For CW it was good, with a hero dealing with trusting someone and exposing his identity. For the character himself (at the time) it wasn't imo.
Going back and reading Amazing Spider-Man runs from the 2000s really hammers this problem in. You go from the fallout of Civil War/One More Day, to an event about Skrulls, then you go into Dark Reign where Norman is a big time government figure. By only reading ASM you have no idea what’s the hell is going on.
i was a huge mcu fan in my teenage years, because the story was easy to follow and i liked that it was intertwined between different movies even if the writting wasnt spectacular, but as i grew older, saw other movies and finished that chapter with endgame i cannot bring myself to care about these new projects at all. its so souless its unbelievable (not that the previous movies had any soul to them, but they were much more fun)
When you mentioned the Mandalorian, in my head I wondered about how season 3 will be when it comes out, then remembered it actually already came out and left so little of a lasting impression that I completely forgot about it.
I think it’s a bummer how people didn’t like mando season 3 as much but I think it’s because how people expected it to be ONLY plot driven. It was an incredible season, arguably the best, for character development and world expansions.
everything everywhere is definitely the best movie to come out of this multiverse-frenzy. Speaking purely about how it utilized that aspect to tell a story, I don't think even spiderverse beats it
I think they both did a great job at what they were trying to do with the multiverse concept. EEAAO used the multiverse concept to tackle themes of nihilism whereas Across the spider-verse used the concept in various ways, like for example, as a meta-commentary for the relationship fans have with the canon of spider-man, to challenge the idea of pain and tragedy being essential to one's journey (more specifically spider-man's journey), and also as a way to bolster its subtext. They both also did a fantastic job of using the concept to enhance the character writing / personal stakes rather than use it as a cheap way to make the story feel important. Sure, one could argue that the way that EEAAO tackles nihilism makes it more "important" but both do a fantastic job at using the multiverse to tell each of their individual stories.
@@ArtAngelE "a multiverse works well when it's integrated into a single compelling story, not struggling to hold together a bunch of otherwise unrelated movies and TV shows". THIS EXACTLY!!!!!!
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 was a SURPRISE hit for me. I'm very biased because of my own personal fantasy of being a space outlaw listening to 70's and 80's music but I think Vol 3. really worked well because it was centered around Rocket and his past and gave him room to breathe as well as elaborated on a lot of his actions and tendencies from the previous film. Because they chose to center it around a specific group of characters (but really focus on one) it really felt like a better movie and a lot more standalone. For once in like 3 years I didn't feel like I was watching a film JUST to see what was at the end.
This is why I loved Andor so fucking much, it was a story worth telling that they told in the Star Wars universe, not a pseudo-story created just to keep that Universe busy. My partner has seen ZERO Star Wars media but watched and loved Andor with pretty much no explaining needed from me. I live in constant fear of some Glup-Shitto-ass cameos inserted by Disney into Season 2 because the first one blew up critically.
I’m optimistic about Andor season 2 just because I don’t really think the creator wants to do it. A lot of other Star Wars properties are headed by Dave Filoni, and he actually enjoys putting the cameos in.
I’m actually really happy that Star Wars never tried to do a multiverse or cinematic universe with other properties, that universe just needs to stay by itself
@@lukew6725 He does write some good stuff, but the fact that ‘Andor’ is the best recent ‘Star Wars’ thing right now and Filoni had nothing to do with it is hilarious.
This is so validating. I’ve considered myself a big fan of both franchises, but it has gotten to the point where I can’t keep up. Which makes me question whether I can even call myself a fan of these stories and characters that I know I loved/love so much. Also, I love the parts where you laugh with each other after a bit. It makes it feel like I’m goofing around with siblings. Thank you for your work!
Meanwhile I still feel like I'm waiting constantly for more stuff. It's been a while since we had an MCU show, so I'm really glad Secret Invasion is out. And there's still months to go before their next movie.
These characters are being and have been better represented in comics - where they are much more willing to create compelling narratives about characters and the implications of their lives. I have become very cynical about the cinematic universes and am skeptical there will ever be improvements there.
I do think Kevin is listening. He's always addressed that they are slowing things down. And we can already see that today. The amount of MCU stuff we got this year is down a lot from last year
I feel like Star Wars Visions always flies under people's radar. Great two season anthology series where studios can bring their own voice to the already fantastic setting and explore fresh ideas and themes. This coming from someone doesn't keep up with any of the other stuff besides Andor.
I love Star Wars Visions! That's the Star Wars content that makes me want to have more Star Wars (compared to the other stuff that makes me feel kinda numb). The self-contained stories touched upon in these episodes are so promising!
I jumped off the rollercoaster after End Game and I have never regretted it. I might check out the new Guardians, but when it comes to the overarching story I think I’ll stick with reading fanfic 😂
Absolutely, everything. So noticeable in Guardians especially - my family wastched the first two movies in prep for the thirds cinema release only to be hit by "because you haven't watched two other films that aren't part of this series, you will have little idea of what's going on throughout". So confusing, and forces people to watch nore shows- now you need to put in the effort for a TV show in order to watch anything Marvel
Idm the insane amount of multiverse stuff, I just want original and good content. I recently played Jedi: Survivor fully through and that was really good that taught me how good an IP can be when focused on a single character. I think we could stand to get more enjoyable stuff within the universe without needing the background information.
I’m so glad to see someone finally agreeing with me on mando season two. I thought mando season one was perfect. It was its own self contained story with references to outside material, but was still its own thing and then from season two onward, it became like a crossover every episode.
@@ianskates427 high-ranking executives are part of why book of Boba Fett was such a mess. They are the reason that Grogu came back, after not even one season of being MIA because they needed more Grogu merch
this just makes me more commends not just vfx artists & writers but also art directors, film composers, stunts choreographer and more; this video has shown me that these real artist behind a movie doesn't get enough appreciation especially in superheroes industry
honestly the thing that upsets me the most about the multiverse and all it’s franchises is how much space they take up in your average movie theater, just like martin said. as someone who now lives in a small town, and used to live in a bigger city, there are no theaters within a few hours away from me that show movies i want to see- because they just can’t afford to! they are almost single handedly running independent theaters into the ground… and it makes me so sad
God when a movie or show introduces time travel or multiverses it usually sucks. The only times it works is if the movie is intrinsically about either of those concepts. So movies like back to the future and into the spider verse work. I think a show like Loki works in a self contained environment, it’s an interesting concept and a multiverse is intrinsic to the plot. However taking into account the greater MCU I don’t think it works at all, and just think it’s completely unnecessary.
I think something that is being overlooked with the 'multiverse fatigue' is how reliant on nostalgia these films are becoming. I know the MCU has always relied on call-backs, easter eggs, and a certain amount of fan service to satisfy the "die-hards", but what worries me is the way nostalgia has slowly crept in to the point it is now central to the narrative. Spiderman no way home is the prime offender because while for some it may be enjoyable to see characters from different universes on the same screen, it's only really satisfying when you have an appreciation for the Raimi and the Garfield movies. If you consider a hypothetical marvel fan who hasn't seen these other franchise films, then you realise that the movie is fundamentally unsatisfying because both the heroes and villains have had their characterisation outsourced to the point that significant moments and the accompanying pathos have no logical root in anything that has happened in the film (e.g. McGuire stopping Holland from killing Dafoe, Garfield saving Zendaya, Alfred Moulina becoming good again). Eventually, this type of self-referential narrative has to collapse in on itself, as you eventually end up trying to reference something that is itself a reference to something else.
Crossovers and multiverse plots, which are also usually crossovers, too often rely on cheap fan service with unlikely interactions between recognizable characters and excessive action sequences instead of earning those moments through strong storytelling and grounded narratives. Multiverses tend to have the additional issue of being overly complicated and removing any meaningful stakes by essentially opening the world up to infinite possibilities. Any decent fictional universe has constraints because it makes the universe feel more consistent and fleshed out.
Actually, there were two Clone Wars series, one made in between Episodes 2 and 3 that was *incredible.* It aired on Adult Swim if I remember correctly, and the whole thing is on RUclips now for free
I think it was Cartoon Network instead of adult swim. Star Wars didn’t really have any “mature” media by that point, and a given how big marketing is to Star Wars, it made more sense to put it on the time slot viewed by kids.
I do think it's possible to do 'multiverse' stories well. But you have to keep in mind that each story needs to be fully self contained, and shout outs to the larger setting need to be something that a casual fan can easily pick up on. My go to example for this is the Discworld series. It's an overlapping universe of satirical fantasy novels with each book following one specific main character. Usually the major characters are separated from each other either by geography or by class, or even just by time, dealing with different problems. When characters DO crossover though, it's always in a way that you get them in a sort abbreviated format. i.e. you get them from the perspective of the character they're meeting for the first time. You don't need to know the back story of Sam Vimes when he first meets William De Word or Moist von Lipwig, you just need to know he's a damn good hardboiled cop. You don't need to know William De Word's deal, you just need to know he's the intrepid reporter. Yes, you can read all their stories. But none of the stories are written so that you have to. And really, everything you NEED to know about the discworld to appreciate each novel can be fit on a single book page, and usually is skillfully inserted into the prose of each story so you don't even notice it's there.
y'all really articulated a progression that i experienced that i struggle to explain. avengers (2012) was my first favorite movie, my first fixation, and spent my 10 yr old self into the world of fandoms. while i was always on top of the lore, i guess i really was much more of an average viewer than a diehard fan. once new chapters were being released twice a year, i felt the commodification in full swing. it just lost so much of what made the movies appeal in the first place - genuinely good comedic and heartfelt superhero arcs. but the shift to release series as well was the last straw for me, i quite literally didn't have the time to keep up w it. also, love the complete lack of mention of the agents of shield show - the broadcast precursor to the disney+ series
Part of me genuinely hopes that James Gunn's DCU work out well since it's moreso the start of something new rather than a continuation like post-Endgame MCU is. It's not about the fanservice or cameos that make people enjoy CBMs, it's the stories that can be told with them, the characters we focus on and their relationships and dynamics (the main reason why Gunn worked well with them, as seen in the GOTG trilogy and The Suicide Squad). I hope he can cook with Superman: Legacy...
Something that is probably going to start to be adapted in the next decade is Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere. It has the potential to be the antithesis to the current strategy for creating interconnected properties. The primary reason is because each story, in universe, is separated by years, decades, or centuries. There's an inherent chronology to how Sanderson writes the connected works and series. E.g. there's about 300 years between Mistborn: The Hero of Ages (series 1) and Mistborn: The Alloy of Law (series 2). It offers a kind of reset in terms of what to keep track of and makes series 1 influence series 2 as recent history, rather than extremely connected phases. And those two series are even more separate from The Stormlight Archive. SA takes place on an entirely different planet with different characters, but with a few people working in the far background or simply crossing over between the two series, with essentially no attention being brough to these crossovers. (It also helps that this is grounded by setting the conflict in a galaxy, rather than across a multiverse with no time-travel shenanigans.) The Cosmere, as a property, has the potential to work a lot more like Phase 1 of the MCU: a series of connected stories, but not overlapping stories. Avengers 1 was enhanced by watching Iron Man, Thor, &c, but it wasn't necessary. I think the main cause for fatigue is all of these overlapping stories. They're trying to make Kang into the ultimate BBEG and the Multiverse a world-shattering event, but the requirement to follow every movie and TV series involving these two aspects makes too difficult to follow. If they only connected them chronologically, then it might have been easier for audiences. Instead, it's hard to tell, but it seems the multiverse splitting in Spider-Man: No Way Home, Loki, and WandaVision are all simultaneous moments where the Multiverse splits apart. This is a very uncommon structure. And for a reason. We don't experience events simultaneously. It's all chronological. Trying to process simultaneous events makes it difficult to follow the story as a whole. In hindsight, making Loki the point where the multiverse comes to fruition makes the most sense, and that should have been the inciting incident. Every other Phase 4 story should have followed from there and dealt with the event in a distinct, chronological order. Having someone like the Watcher act as a narrator and someone to provide some exposition to keep audiences grounded would also have been helpful, too.
The multiverse breaking is not simultaneous at all. WV has nothing to do with the Multiverse breaking. Loki takes place out of the timeline, so for everyone else the multiverse has always existed. NWH wasn't about the creation of the multiverse but an incursion, just like MOM.
This is more about interconnecting universes rather than multiverses, but this reminds me of the time I tried to watch the arrowverse entire. At first it was fun, but when it came to the point where I had to switch between 4 shows after each episode while I only really cared about 1 of them it began feeling like a real chore to get through and I ultimately stopped because it was too daunting of a task.
Loved the video, you made a lot of great points! Two small corrections: 14:54 *thor love & thunder, not ragnarok 15:44 *two animated tv shows, both named clone wars, in addition to an animated movie with the same name
There also was two animated tv shows **Droids** and **Ewoks** made in the 80's, along with two made-for-tv movies about the Ewoks. There also was the Star Wars Holiday Special, while we are on things Lucasfilm tried to forget.
"From 1977 to 2008, there were a total of six Star Wars movies and one animated TV show" And a holiday special, a Droids animated series, an Ewok animated series, plus hundreds of novels and video games and an ongoing comic series that all formed a continuity that, prior to Disney's acquisition, was definitive and expansive.
He mentions that, but they were easy to ignore, and 90% of people didn’t know they existed. You didn’t need them to enjoy the movies. It was also far from definitive. Legends consisted of a bunch of contradictory, and largely self-contained, stories that people could engage with at their own pace. Even among the minority of people who knew about the games and novels, they tended to like individual parts of it. You had your KotoR fans, or Dark Forces Fans, or Thrawn Fans, and those could all be enjoyed independently of each other.
One of my favorite movies from the MCU is Captain America: The Winter Soldier. The villains - Bucky and Pierce - were so well designed that they genuinely felt alive in the story despite exhibiting evil behaviors. There wasn't any soft/hard magic, or macro-scale threats, but rather a plot focused on wrapping up the Hydra arc to some extent. The quote that hit the point home is from Jon Favreau: "... It's not like there's a finale that we're building to that I have in mind. Quite the contrary, I love for these stories to go on and on.". The new wave of stories coming from Disney aren't designed as stories, they're designed as IP. While some would love to argue that's the point of a business, it most certainly isn't the point when dealing with creativity - which is primarily the core skill of every well-written story. Ironically enough for people using the business argument: the "businesses are meant to make money" line is exactly why creativity is thrown out the window, because almost every well-designed project will either break even or generate a small amount of profit.
the success of this channel makes me so happy. been watching eddy for years now and after everything that has happened i’m just happy to see it land in a place that he seems happy with and passionate about. really excited for you guys, i hope you both feel proud of your content and satisfied with your place in life.❤ p.s. sorry i stink, it’s cause i just farted
I didn't even really understand why I wasn't having fun at Marvel movies anymore and had no interest in watching all the shows on Disney+ unless I heard about superhero burnout, and now that you guys mentioned multiverse fatigue, that's exactly what it is. The novelty of a crossover has been driven into the ground, and I just don't have the time or patience to get through dozens of movies and shows to understand what's going on. I miss movies with fantastical elements that are truly character focused and emotionally grounded. The only projects I've really enjoyed from Marvel and Star Wars lately have been the Spider-Man films, Wandavision, and the Mandalorain up until the latest season which felt totally directionless.
I got my degree in media studies & industries, and it goes without saying that the main issue with Cinematic Universes is time. Given that Time = Money, the corporations are gonna want to push out as many films as possible in order to get ahead & meet theoretical & trend-based demand. However, Time effects how long writers, directors & editors have to work on these films, and as we've seen ever since the Thanos/Endgame Saga finished, these projects aren't given as much as they need (alongside competitive workspaces & insufficient pay). I find the combination of Across the Spider-Verse succeeding and The Flash bombing as bad as it has to actually be a good sign for Disney & Warner Bros. to realize what audiences want (alongside the current strikes raising awareness to labor conditions).
Thank you for sharing this. I have felt this way for a while basically since the end of season one of Mandalorian and got a lot of heat from MCU and Star Wars fans for not being as involved as they are. It was just exhausting trying to keep up with every storyline for every franchise. Just give me a movie that’s good and something that I could follow.
I dip in and out of the series, preferring self contained films. I really enjoyed Shang-Chi because it focussed on building new characters, following their story and I didn't have to memorise plot threads or understand references to TV shows that came out 5 years ago on a streaming platform I don't have.
Shang-Chi was my standout Marvel movie from this phase for exactly this reason. It focused heavily on its own plot and characters and kept reminders of the interconnected universe to brief cameos that didn't impact the plot (though even then I still had a moment of "okay that's the guy from the Dr Strange movies and he's fighting... some big monster? Oh he's friends with the monster? Is that a monster I should know? Eh whatever they're off screen now" lol)
Another thing that should be noted is studios changing plans last minute leaving both the visuals and writing lacking in both creativity and cohesiveness. There was a story about how Elizabeth Olsen stoped memorizing the scrips for Dr. Strange: MoM because how much much it was being changed and with Justices league (2017) visuals being completely altered. As well with Thor Love & Thunder most of Christians Bales scenes being removed to make it a “funnier” movie. There were supposed to be scenes with him cutting the tattoos out of his skin to show he no longer worships his God. Similar to Rogue One and Solo where most the movie had to be reshot to appease the Upper-heads of Studio management. Aspects like this is killing movies where the most interesting parts of trailers and promotional material will not be in the final product of the movie. With major studios wanting multiverse stories it is clear that this hurting each individual film as they scramble last minute to have it connect with the one before it either visually or in its writing while being production telling their own film.
I’m so glad they made this video. I’ve felt so disconnected by marvel the last few years and this puts it into words so well. I’m just so disappointed that something I used to love so much has become impossible to keep up with and connect to.
I like the of a multiverse where its just a different world that has a wildly different art style, design, or idea. which is why i enjoyed spiderverse because its all these different styles and ideas clashing together in one space and seeing how they interact with each other.
My favourite use of multiverses/shared universe is for dnd games. Running things in the same universe in different times in different places is so awesome when you find relics of a party from the past (or figure out that what you’re doing was the reason that something happened in a campaign set in the future) and fleshing out the world is so satisfying
I have been ruminating on the recent popularity of multiverse related stories just this morning, and to see this video released an hour ago is quite surreal ngl
The section about planning out a story and its ending makes so much sense. I find that the best franchises happen around a core story that is expanded on in the same universe with stories that are adjacent to the main characters. That’s why guardians of the galaxy worked so well, it was set in the MCU and had ties to the larger story, but it had its own themes and really developed its characters.
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EDDY I JUST SHOWERED ITS NOT ME!
Why did you guys spend half the video explaining what the MCU is instead of actually talking about multiverse fatigue. And the random tangent about Star Wars which has nothing to do with the topic lol.
I usually like your guys videos but this one said literally noting of value.
Jimmy Timmy Power Hour gang rise up 😤
y'all said Thor Ragnarok when you meant to say Thor Love & Thunder smh
Boop
It's wild that they're just doing the exact same things that almost destroyed the comicbook industry but with movies
Wdym?
@@psychoapplesauceeater8562too much interconnectness with bad writing on top of it
Something something learn from history repeat history
Yea exactly but even worse cuz comic books cost like less then a dollar to produce... But they're betting 200 million dollars+ per movie. Smh it's gonna bite em in the butt
@@rumblestylskyn probably because they pay for top level actors and use way too much vxf?
“To make matters worse, it was absolutely fantastic” has to be the best review of Spiderverse I’ve ever heard
it really isn't thought...?
@@hhattonaom9729everyone loves it... I feel like it was decent, nothing special
@@alexanderkononov1862 even if you didn't like anything else about it, you have to admit the animation is incredible and unique
@@emilyb.8219 yes, it looks fantastic and unlike anything else
@@alexanderkononov1862 it’s too long. The 2 hr 20 min run time isn’t justified, they needed to edit it down a half hour or so. Most animated films are less than 2 hrs. but I guess just fell in love with everything they do, it was exhausting to watch.
The biggest problem in the MCU (besides bad writing) is easily the power creep. They’ve put themselves in a position where each new baddy has to threaten more than the last, from city to world to universe to multiverse. Not only this, but they arent willing to dedicate the time to make it feel right. Thanos took like a DECADE to build up to, and yet we were supposed to buy Kang or whatever else as a multiversal threat
It's like the Netflix show issue, where they don't plan things out beyond the first season of a show, but want it to be a continuous arc across the show's entirety, and so every new season just gives a bigger and badder villain who was (plot twist!) in control the whole time 🤯🤯, and it's just clear that the writing is bad and they're running out of content.
Ah, that's actually very artistic. It's symbolic to capitalism and always bigger profits each year. Marvel's done it again :)
Yeah but you kinda have to do that. If the sequel takes a drop down, you know the hero can win so there's no stakes. You either have to nerf the hero or spit up the team to do that but even then it's not going to feel like a good continuation of the story. It'd be like if a trilogy went from destroying/saving a country to destroying/saving the world to destroying/saving a city. People just aren't gonna care cause they know it's basically a non issue
@@maxbracegirdle9990 or end the hero’s story and start fresh with a new one, like Cassian from Andor. Ik marvel is on their multiverse kick, but there’s no need to treat the future of marvel as a continuation of what’s already happened. Let the heros of the early phases have their win imo
@@maxbracegirdle9990 You don't though. Defeating a villain doesn't necessarily mean that a hero needs to get objectively stronger, or that in the sequels the stakes need to get higher. Sometimes, a villain can be just as powerful as the villain before it, but with different attributes or targeting different weaknesses within the protagonists. Believe it or not, it doesn't always need to be about saving everybody, and a good story shouldn't need that to create tension, suspense, or urgency. Sometimes, it's about coming up with creative, thought-provoking solutions instead of "punch bad guy until he dies" every time.
I never realised the Multiverse of Madness writers didn't see WandaVision before writing it, but that movie makes so much more sense now. Moral of the story, don't let one part of your story directly contradict the previous part!
I was also really confused about why there is a large multiverse in Dr. Strange, yet in the Loki show, all other timelines/universes are deleted… so I wonder if that discrepancy exists for a similar reason
The youtubers intentionally misled you there. They didnt watch it because the episodes werent finished being edited but they read all the scripts and had people work with them to make sure everything lined up.
@@tlock8592Except everything didn’t line up lmao
@@darkithnamgedrf9495 id blame that more on the director leaving and waldron having to scramble to write a new script late into production over the idea that he didnt know any of what happened in Wandavision.
Obligatory mention of The Last Jedi.
I didn’t mind cinematic universes until I had to watch seasons of TV to understand what was going on
Except you literally don't.
@@delycan4912no but you really do
@@madcracker8077do you? What's your reason you need to watch the show? Enjoy what you enjoy lol and don't watch what you don't want to lmao
@@madcracker8077believe it or not people went into Endgame having watched maybe 1-2 marvel movies in their life. It's fine. Watch what you want, don't watch what you don't. However, the more that you do watch the more appreciation and understanding you'll have of the big picture, character arcs, callbacks, etc. It's not mandatory viewing.
@@delycan4912 Some people like me prefer to have the full picture when engaging with a movie, tv or book series. Even if book 1 isn't really necessary to understand the story in book 2, I'm not going to skip it. Some people HAVE to even if you "literally don't".
Misspoke and said “ragnarok” instead of “love and thunder” my bad - Eddy
eddy? more like
I WAS SO CONFUSED! Thor Ragnarok is amazing
as someone probably said, "oopsie poopsie"
We can only hope that Christian Bale forgives you for this grievous misstep
It's ok, both suck
BIG ANNOUNCEMENT: as we uploaded this video, Tony started to pack up his PC because he’s officially moving to LA!! We will finally be living in the same place again and can’t wait to start making this newer format more frequently. Thank you everyone for the support so far it has meant the world
Hey eddy, how's the kids?
Does this mean Burback Podcast?
does this mean podcast or twitch? I'd personally prefer podcast tbh
This is tremendous news. These videos are so incredibly well made, I can't wait to mindlessly indulge in these videos more frequently.
Congrats on getting to live by your brother again! that's awesome and really exciting !
I think one of the things that the Spiderverse movies do well is, while they do have a multiverse as a core aspect of the story, it feels CONTAINED. When I watch those movies, I don't feel overwhelmed when they start talking about the multiverse, because the way it's handled in the story keeps it contained and relevant to it.
Yeah they talked about it in 12:17 18:27 and 19:30
@@CureSmileful Yes and no. They do talk about how a multiverse needs to work well with the plot and help create a cohesive story, but what I'm saying is the multiverse itself in Spiderverse doesn't feel as loose as the other ones. I don't feel like I have to watch a bunch of content or hope that Dingus McBungle doesn't become a relevant character with their own movie later on, because it's contained to "this is the spiderverse with a bunch of different versions of Spiderman" and that's it.
There’s no point to the multiverse in those movies except for fan service, just like the rest of them. The whole protect the canon message was completely ignored by the main characters at the end so that was irrelevant. Miles had almost no character development through the movie, and they reduce the main Peter Parker’s personality down to “I have a baby for comic relief”
@@lunchbox3124you’re wrong
@@nman551 you could watch the last 10 minutes of across the spiderverse and you’d be perfectly caught up going into the 3rd movie. It was a good art piece, but it was a horrible pointless story.
I just love the repeat cycle of Disney throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at every production and expecting people to gargle it up like we’re cats wanting catnip
You'd think they could throw more of those hundreds of millions of dollars into writing and have more success, no? I imagine it's a lot cheaper to pump out movies that are good enough to keep people coming back. And I imagine it's cheaper to spend a lot on great writing and then have okay animation, rather than the other way around.
Except that's exactly what you did for 15 years. Connected universes are bad for film, bad for art, and they gotta go.
They think they can do that, because that's exactly what they've been doing from the jump. Same movies over and over and over and over, eating them up.
@@bobdylan1968 connected universe's aren't inherently bad for movies or art, its just when they're done wrong they can fail.
That's insulting to cats smh
I think Gunn said it best, people aren't tired of superheroes, they're tired of bad movies.
Yeah Guardians of the Galaxy 3 was probably the first MCU movie I really liked since Endgame because it focused on the characters and their relationships and wasn't trying to set up the next team up movie that won't even be made for another few years.
I agree
It's the same thing with this debate around "wokeness", like - it's just bad movies. Guardians was fruity af and was amazing
@goblinjr.4810 Smart move for DC. Unlike with Marvel where you're forced to watch every show & movie to not miss anything important. It such a chore nowadays.🙄
@@KeeperProtector who’s forcing you to watch all the shows? It’s certainly not to be able to understand what’s going on in the movies, because almost all of the shows thus far have been inconsequential the movies.
One thing you guys didn’t talk much about is how these movies feel very homogeneous. They’ve evolved to be as hard to keep up with as comics but without telling risky stories that comics tell because the budget behind making a big budget movie means they’re not willing to do something weird or make a statement out of fear of audiences not agreeing.
it's all so repetitive😭😭it's exhausting
I'd argue their taking a huge risk with Kang...That storyline is definitely gonna take more risks I feel...
@@NS-xx1zeif he doesn't go to prison first lmao
@KetsubanSolo innocent until proven guilty 🤷♂️ he's going to trial in a few months
Homogeneous is a good word for it. And I think the fact everything they said about Thor Ragnarok was acutally about Thor Love and Thunder supports that pretty well.
THANK YOU for not blaming the writers and cgi artists. It takes time to make something great, and when people call writers and cg artists “lazy” it just validates the unreasonably intense working conditions they live under. It makes the solution to make them “work harder”, when the real problem is that they’re given TOO MUCH work and too little time, while staffing is cut short to save money.
The GCI artists aren’t the problem but the writers are
the people who wrote she-hulk had 3 years and they arguably killed marvel for a lot of people
@@greyfire64The issue there isn't the writers. Yes, we can definitely point the finger at the horrible, forced dialogue. But if you've noticed, that's been a pretty much universal issue with most movies/games/media the past few years. At that point, it's no longer a writer issue, but the directors/producers/marketing analysers who have told writers that they have to write these cheesy stories. For some reason, the people behind the scenes have decided cringe dialogue/forced plot points are what sells. And they do seem to be right, people watch it anyway.
@@greyfire64she hulk wasn’t the usual american military propaganda
and to be honest beside the military what do americans even care about
@@greyfire64 the thing is that a lot of the times what the writers write isn't what the studio wants to sell, so, they need to keep making more and more scripts until the studio is happy with it, which can easily devolve into a mess. i'm not quick to jump on the writers' throats for bad writing because a lot of the times, the suits are the ones who actually sign it off to be made,
You can be a good writer AND work under pressure and expectations of the studio. It's not impossible. Look at GoTG 3. It's also in the Phase 4. They were also forced to adhere to the pre made universe but they managed to make a good movie.
I'm sorry but there are no excuses to be made for writers of most Phase 4 MCU products.
yeah I think the most damning part for me is the Wandavision > Dr Strange thing. How can the writers have been expected to do a good job with the character if they can't have even known what Wanda just went through to get her to that point? I think that definitely should have been a wake up call for Marvel that they are moving way too fast with these projects.
I didn't know about any of that before seeing this video. What a shit show of an idea.
"You don't know who this character is, but can you write her into your movie? Thanks"
Yikes.
They definitely should have accommodated more time between projects. Like, if ‘Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness’ was delayed by a whole year, the writers could have had more time to watch ‘WandaVision’ as research before developing the movie’s script.
PS: Hi Derk!! [I commented on this without looking at the name]. This is TomWDW :-)
@@stormtraitor6545Even with time I feel like there’s still a weird disconnect - Endgame didn’t care about Agent Carter, for example. There’s a weird deal where they want TV shows to be considered part of the story but also only somewhat.
@@TomWDW1 hahahaha a fellow Burback enjoyer I see. Small world!
The multiverse is to the 2020s what zombies were to the 2010s.
i thought zombie movies were more 2000s than 2010s
@@irishempire9811I agree, I think a better comparison is the multiverse is the apocalyptic ya novel of the 2020s
If that's the case, how come the latest Spider-man multiverse movie was a success? As far as I know, there's only been three or four multiverse films compared to the hundreds of Zombie movies of the 2010s
Vampire stories also dominated the 2010s
@@GESSO217 Three Spider-Verse films, Avengers: Endgame, Spider-Man No Way Home, Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness, Everything Everywhere All At Once, and The Flash all feature "multiverse" elements, so that's 8 films in the past 5 years, not counting the TV shows that also include that theme.
They have so much chemistry it’s like they’re brothers
Twins, almost
The easiest way to avoid multiverse fatigue is...wait for it...writing a good story and characters that are interesting and entertaining to watch.
There’s a reason people are still clamoring for the next spider-verse movie despite all of this
@@harrylane4 Because people liked Spiderverse
Truly a breath taking take, I've never seen such an idea before, fuck off
“wait for it” cracks me up every time lol
Same with superhero fatigue, people have been so bored with phase 4 in the past couple of years, but then GOTG3 came out and it was actually a good movie with self-contained story and sold very well too. So it's not so much as superhero fatigue (while it's definitely there due to the amount of so many of them coming out each year), it's more boring trash movie fatigue that happens to be in the superhero genre.
The thing I hate about multiverses nowadays is that they're basically just used as a substitute for character development and planning that should go into cinematic universes. Look at the early MCU, the reason Infinity War (not a multiverse movie but it follows the same principle) or No Way Home were cool was because they had took the years necessary to establish the characters and let us connect with them. With the Flash, they didn't even bother with the character development or setup, they just showed a few "familar but different" characters and called it a day. If you're going to do a multiverse story just do what the Spiderverse movies do and have fun with it
"The thing I hate about multiverses nowadays is that they're basically just used as a substitute for character development and planning that should go into cinematic universes"
Well it could work depending on the execution.
@@dylansharp8471 yea I kind of hastily made this comment and lost my point halfway through. It's just that a lot of franchises spring at the multiverse idea and completely fumble it so it'd be nice to get one that actually works y'know?
I mean, as someone who generally doesn't like superhero movies, I did really love Guardians of the Galaxy. Then they made Quill meet Thor, an ancient mythological Norse God. And wimpy bitch Hawkeye.
Nobody can tell me that's canon. Not a fan, not the creators, not even God himself.
@@Subpar1O1 I get what you mean though, multiverses much like any story really but especially when multiple of the same characters are involved, need some pre established character lore and not just cameos or fan service
@@Subpar1O1 what makes the idea of a multiverse fun is that there are multiple characters that you connect with, but never able to meet. a crossover that you didn't know you needed, but is so exciting because you want to know what will change when the worlds collide.
but between aliens, excessive cgi, and ridiculous plots, superheroes are losing their relatability and the human aspect of storytelling. spiderman is popular because he's literally just a guy and trying to live his life while also save the world.
instead of them being just people, they're the most powerful, and then you have to keep inventing bigger threats for them to face to keep the narrative going, since they don't have regular people problems. marvel creates the most flashy, impressive movies but they can't rely on fx to tell stories without it getting old
This is why moon knight is my fave post-endgame marvel story - I get why comic fans might have wanted something different but it was just so nice to jump into some new characters without having to draw a flow chart to figure out where they fit 😅
Exactly! It feels like its own thing without no reference to other marvel movies or shows. (Excluding the FATWS reference on the side of the bus in episode 1 but it's very blink and you miss it and has no effect on the story) Plus Moon Knight is really cool and the show got me into reading the comics
It was a stand alone story and yet it wasn't great imo.
@@homogenicmp3it was great :3
Yes and I also like that he’s not just a repeat of a character that already exists
can't wait for the burback cinematic universe
You mean bareback?
The Misadventures of Eddy Ninepins
Burback Binematic Buniverse
In the Burback multiverse. Eddy never bowled a 300 in wii bowling.
I think that's when they went to the Rainforest Cafe
One promising thing James Gunn has said is that he wants every movie in his DCU to be able to be watched on its own without seeing anything else
Aw I love that! James Gunn is such a visionnary 😍 love his work so far
James Gunn is carrying the entire super hero genre on his back.
one promising thing is there are stories out there without super heros. comic books even have way more stoylines that are way more appealing. the superhero is dead. (or at least it should be)
Oh man, they better bend over backwards and listen to this man, otherwise it will only go wrong!
@@jimmjimmsmulti million dollar properties “dead” lmao
there's currently only one multiverse I'm interested in right now, and it's the Spider-verse. They don't just try and say "Oh these movies are connected, isn't that wacky?", they actually focus on the multiverse as a concept and how it can come in danger.
Nah, it's just going down the fan service route. The fact that there is live action scenes of other spider-man projects and a "please clap moment" for Donald Glover shows that they are going down that route. The first Spiderverse movie was a nice coming of age story while still being able to pull off another spider-man origin story. While also being self aware and lampooning the Spider-man IP. Spiderverse 2 feels like the flanderization of the Spiderman story with relaying so heavily on the multiverse to bring in fan service and how literally anything can be spider man now. Out of all Spider-man projects, Sam Raimi's trilogy holds the most weight. It's its own self contained character driven story that best shows what it means to not just be Spider-man but being your own person as well.
@@Max25670 To me it feels like Across the Spiderverse is (spoilers below) Attacking the traditional Spider-Man tropes and trying to make its own identity away from every other spider man story. The way I see the multiverse in Spiderverse is not as the "everything is canon now" trope to just loosely tie together each series, I think they brought in every single spider man to contrast to Spiderverse's Miles Morales. It's 1 out of a crowd of essentially the same people. They use it to their advantage to play more with the idea of who Spider Man is, and to further develop Miles as his own character
@@fink_rat I don't know, Miles will always be a cheap copy in my eyes, he is only watched by the fans or is relevant when he is in crossovers, i mean, he is not even the original Spiderman of his universe, the only thing different with him and Peter is that Peter is a nerd and him a Hip Hop Boy (the characther as a whole)
I beliebe that if in this next movie he doesn't do something to distance himself from the shadow of Spiderman, like what Jason Todd or Dick Grayson did, and have his own name and identity as a superhero, people will forget about him eventually
@@mateoreyes6921”hip hop boy” bro what the fuck are you talking about? I don’t wanna accuse you of being racist, but like, how else are we supposed to interpret this😭
@@mateoreyes6921late but i doubt that will happen. The spiderverse movies are considered the best movies of the spiderman franchise by many, many people. Spiderverse is also remembered for revolutionising the animation industry and paving a way for animated movies to be more stylistic. So even if you dont think Miles is a unique character, i doubt he will be forgotten.
when we're in elementary school like the first thing we learn is that stories have a beginning, middle, and end. it feels like now stories are build to have a beginning, a middle, a middle, a middle, a middle
And sometimes the end is just another middle.
American comic books tend to have a "perpetual second act."
I do think after Endgame they should've just done some self contained movies that introduced and developed the new characters with only tiny hints to something bigger and the series should've just been smaller scale stories focused on the side characters so if you don't want to watch them you don't miss major plot elements. Just feels like they rushed into the new phase way too fast with no cool down after Endgame
I liked Loki introducing Kang. It’s should’ve just been that though. No Kang in Antman
They did do largely self contain marvel movies/ shows like Shang Chi, Eternals, Falcon and Winter Solider, Hawkeye, Moon Knight, Ms Marvel, She Hulk, and yet ppl onsist online these movies/shows don't lead to anything important in the larger Multiverse Saga
Honestly my favourite thing from phase 4 was Werewolf by Night, just a solid short owe to b&w hammer horrors, it was probably also because I forgot it was a marvel movie 5 minuets into it
Yeah if you compare the amount of marvel properties that came out each year in phase 1 vs phase 4 and 5 it’s insane.
They should stick to 1-2 movies and tv shows every year instead of the 4-6 they have currently
It's the same powercreep problem as Dragon Ball. The threat is exactly the same, but the number is bigger now.
When I was in high school/middle school I collected comics with a passion, especially Marvel. Wolverine, X-Men, X-Foce, New Mutants, Excalibur, etc. Also, Punisher, Ghost Rider, and whatever else that looked interesting (even the occasional DC title). I loved the relatable characters the epic stories, lore, artwork. I had my favorite writers, illustrators.
And then after about 8 years I almost completely stopped. It's not that I stopped liking comics, but I realized that typical superhero stories NEVER END. Why was I spending tons of money on something that will never have a satisfying conclusion? It just goes on and on and on.
Today, I will occassional pick up a "serious" graphic novel or limited run series, but I'm done with perpetrual super heroes.
MCU as we know it should have ended after Endgame. Almost everything else feels watered down.
Just read standalone indie series than jesus. You know what you're getting when you read superhero comics.
If a child can write a simple story from start to finish in grade school WHY CAN’T A GIGANTIC COMPANY DO THE SAME THING?!?!?
@@mechanwhal6590 in the words of mr krabs: "I LIKE MONEYY!!". It's like product companies that make their products INTENTIONALLY BAD so that people need to keep buying replacements. There's no profit in making something good that can be consumed once, gotta rope people in and enslave them to the whims of the content-machine. This is why I have so much respect for indie productions nowadays, you got actual artists that actually want to push the boundaries of an art-form, rather than grubby corporate pigs that just care about seeing numbers go up.
@@mechanwhal6590because big companies have to make the most generic thing to appeal to the biggest number of readers
this is my first time on this channel and it wasn't until 17 and a half minutes in i realized i was watching two different people discussing this and not one person who edited themselves in as a double and talked with them
Sameee 😂😂😂
Same
And I still think it's one person 😭
Don't feel bad, they're twins.
I watched the entire video and didn’t realize till I read this 😅
Incredible commitment by Tony bringing in a multiverse version of himself to collaborate on this video
This is why I enjoyed guardians of the galaxy 3 so much. There were no giant MCU implications it was just a good story about the guardians of the galaxy I forgot about the MCU as a whole watching that movie and I loved that.
Guardians 3 is best project and doesn't involve multiverse same with Wakanda Forever and those two films were a fresh breather from the shitty multiverse stuff we got.
I really like how the entire movie felt like a big middle finger to the MCU in general. No characters pointlessly died, and they were all able to finish their own stories without interference from other projects (Besides Gamora obviously, who’s treatment was the whole reason why Gunn made the movie in the way he did). The movie ended with a dance scene, completely outside of the norm for the MCU. The movie was a great ending to a great trilogy, and personally where I’m finishing my time with the MCU for the foreseeable future.
James Gunn is actually a good filmmaker though, he creates all the Guardians of the Galaxy films as films you can watch without watching anything else in the MCU including the other Guardians of the Galaxy films, they just connect in smaller ways like the age of Groot for example.
I loved that the High Evolutionary wasn’t a huge threat that would rip apart the fabric of reality if gone unchecked. He’s just an arguably terrible person who needs to be stopped not only because of the atrocities he’s committed, but also because he’s an obstacle stopping the Guardians from saving one of their own.
The problem with multiverses for me is that aside from Spiderverse which still focuses primarily on story and characters, the other multiverse storylines just exist to blind people with nostalgia by bringing back actors from past movies that people constantly try to say were always good and establishing them as part of the grand scheme of things without any effort put into why and if it makes sense.
nah because Spider-Verse does that too, there have been plenty of bad multiverse projects that are far less guilty of this then Spider-Verse. Crisis on Infinite Earths on the CW had a few cameos, but most of the plot relevant variants were original creations of the show, such as the Kingdom Come superman and batman (obviously adapted from the comics but not directly carrying over from a previous property). Even the Smallville cameo didn't overstay its welcome and overall Crisis handled the multiverse stuff really well.
It just wasn't that good from a plot perspective after the first few parts.
People really need to stop trying to narrow down the problems with multiverse stories to something about the way the multiverse is handled. the problem isn't multiverse stories, it's just bad stories.
Yeah honestly it's one thing to expect people to watch previous movies in a series (original Avengers, Infinity War/Endgame, etc) and another thing to expect them to have knowledge of movies that weren't even in the same cinematic universe lol. Like imagine watching No Way Home and not having watched either the Tobey McGuire or Andrew Garfield movies. Two random dudes would show up with built-in applause breaks to resolve 2/3 of the movie's central conflict and experience character arc payoffs that the viewer would have 0 setup for. It's exciting in the moment if you're in the know, but there's no real guarantee that the average viewer even knows these other movies are part of the required reading.
I got a taste of this with the Daredevil cameo in that movie. Some dude I'd never seen before showed up for like 2 scenes, inserted himself into the plot, then dipped, leaving me with the feeling that I guess I was supposed to know who that was, but at the time I had no clue lol. Sure, not movie-ruining by any means, but that was just a small cameo role and I still found it jarring. It had to be way more confusing for the people who saw unknown cameo characters stick around for the whole last third of the movie lol.
Not to say you can never have moments of fanservice in movies, I guess, but just that it's a potentially alienating move to let them impact the main plot. Done poorly, this seems like a trend that'll weaken a story as much as any Deus Ex Machina resolution would.
@@Flameclaw123i think the daredevil cameo was fine, i hadn't watched the series prior and it's not like i was asking myself "who is this guy?".
And wich movies are those? Flash? Multiverse of madness barley had any cameos 🤔 Nvh? That did its Sam Raimi characters justice...Across the spiderverse was great...hmmm
@@ahoge734 it wasn't a major issue or anything, I just remember it confusing me at the time lol, though maybe not everyone would have the same reaction
Something you didnt mention is that for people that didnt watch the boba fett show, the last time we saw baby yoda was when he left with luke, and then in the next season of mandalorian he is back in the show like nothing happened.
Book of Boba Fett and Mando S3 were so messy with trying to stand on their own. They were both trying to tell too many stories at once and felt so unfocused. The only things I really remember from either of those is the character cameos 😭
There wasn't even a recap at the beginning of the new mandalorian season lmfao.
I literally paused the ep and googled it, I was so confused during that first ep. People said Book of Boba Fett wasn't great, and I had no reason to think I'd need to watch it to keep watching Mandalorian (honestly I'm not a huge Star Wars buff anyway and only watched Mando bc S1 was so well received), so I skipped it, then got blindsided by the S3 opening. Why they chose to make the arc that drove the entirety of S2 functionally meaningless in the first place is beyond me, but to do it in a different show is like, next-level poor decision making lol.
Dude, I’m glad you made an exception for how GOOD Spiderverse is. Truly one of my favorite films!
As usual, when something is really good and it's successful, producers looking for the next sure thing draw the wrong lessons from it, and try to reproduce its most superficial trappings instead of making something good.
It deserved to win an Oscar.
I LITERALLY LOVE SPIDERVERSE
Overly Sarcastic Productions has a great video about this topic and one of my biggest takeaways from it was how expanding the universe can ironically make the story feel like it matters less, a problem perfectly exemplified by the MCU
it occurs to me that a "multiverse" is just today's version of time travel. terminator, bill and ted, back to the future, there was a time in the 80s and 90s when sci-fi writers had one awesome idea that the public couldn't get enough of. later, think of how popular the matrix got, and how many stories about messing with what is real got told. this isn't a new phenomenon, its just the latest in pop culture catching up to philosophy or science or whatever.
These are *all* old ideas in print science fiction (and superhero comics!), but there are these events when Hollywood writers go from thinking they're too esoteric for the public to understand, to thinking the public can't get enough of them. And they all jump on the bandwagon.
I think, this time around, they were just pulling the wrong lesson from the praise for Into the Spider-Verse. And maybe Rick and Morty. Of course Rick and Morty grew out of a parody of Back to the Future, so I guess these trends are all connected.
My husband and I aren't big comic or superhero fans but we were casual enjoyers of going to see Marvel movies in theaters and stuff. Since Endgame, literally the only time we watch any Marvel movies is on a long flight where they happen to be offered for free viewing.
Man, when the MCU first started it was so much fun, the first iron man movie has a special place in my heart and I've seen every movie since with my dad, but once we finished endgame I was like "ok they finished the stories I've been watching for ten years, I'm done" and I haven't seen a marvel movie/show since and don't plan on ever seeing one again
then why are u here? Seems to me you have some interest in watching marvel content online even if it is disparage it
@@luismedrano6680 you understand that there's a difference between watching a movie and watching a RUclips video discussing a trend that appears in multiple pieces of media right?
@@killjoy8372 I like watching movie reviews, 5% of the time do I actually go and watch the movie
@@luismedrano6680seems to me you have no 🧠
@@killjoy83722 Marvel movies are 2 of the biggest hits of the summer with Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3 ans Spider Man Across the Spiderverse
honestly, the onslaught of all these shows and movies in marvel have really turned me off trying to get into marvel. the multiverse aspect has made me even more apprehensive about watching. thanks for talking about this, feels like every show wants to be multiverse now lol
Not really.
Just watch from Iron Man 1 to Endgame, and watch like the additional Spider-Man and guardians movies
Honestly, if you want you can just watch the movies or shows that interest you. If they have prerequisites it's usually pretty obvious from looking what characters are on the poster, or it isn't a big deal
Then just watch Iron Man - Endgame? Or better yet pick a random project and watch it, you probably won't be that lost
The onslaught of TV series seems to have its roots in the rise of streaming services during the pandemic.
I loved Guardians of the Galaxy 3 because it focused on the guardians. It left no piece to connect to the MCU (apart from the team breaking up and a new ish team comes in the place). But it wrapped this part up. It could've been a stand alone movie. And I appreciate it
When my friends wanted me to go see End Game in 2019 I said no because, at that point, the only Marvel movie I had seen in the last ten years was one of the iron man movies. I can’t even imagine how hard it would be for someone to get into it for the first time now, which, mind you, is only FOUR years later.
That's where RUclips comes in or various Marvel wiki that can refresh your memory on key characters and plot points
@@luismedrano6680i don't want to have to do research tho to enjoy a movie
Right! I haven’t seen a Marvel movie in 6+ years, and I keep wanting to start watching them, but at this point the idea of trying to figure out where to start, what to watch, in what order, just sounds exhausting.
@@luismedrano6680ou shouldn't have to treat going to a movie like you're studying for an exam. I didn't have to do a cram sesh on everything Frank Herbert ever wrote to enjoy "Dune," follow its plot, or get invested in its characters and world, and I'm saying that as someone who's already read all the books and was following the development of that project for years. To use a more recent example I went into "Nimona" completely blind, having no knowledge whatsoever about the long-running webcomic/graphic novel it's based on, its characters, or its world, and I was completely entranced by it.
Most people simply don't care enough to read the wiki or watch hours of recaps just to figure out what's going on in what's supposed to be a simple summer blockbuster. And I think this is part of the problem: Marvel is trying to make projects that can only really return on investment if they bring in massive crowds of casual fans, but with story structures and distribution plans that really only work for the small niche of obsessive superfans. Comics can get away with telling massive cosmic stories that appeal to that small, dedicated audience because comics as a medium are relatively inexpensive to produce: when each entry costs hundreds of millions of dollars you have to get more focussed and strip things down.
I saw endgame in theaters, the only marvel movies I had seen before that was the first avengers movie and the first captain America movie. It was confusing but I didn’t pay for the ticket lmao
I really like this videos. They are never coming from a place of hate, but genuinely love for a thing they like and are just tired that is being mistreated. Plus Tony and Eddy are really funny
I think you mean tony and tony 2
the most frustrating thing to me was that before multiverse of madness (which was objectively terrible wtf sam rami) you didn’t NEED to watch the tv shows to understand what was happening. but in multiverse of madness you don’t know what is going on with wanda and who are those kids and why is she upset about them and all of that unless you had paid for disney+ to watch those shows. that is just so obviously a money hungry grubbing tactic and it made me hate the tv shows (even the ones i liked such as loki)
Wanda vision was good but I am annoyed you have the tv shows now, especially because I forgot mostly everything
the shows annoy me so much because i don’t want to watch them but i feel like i have to to understand whats going on
I'm at the point where maybe the best way to get me interested in a media project/ franchise is tell me it's ending(ed). Knowing something has an end it was building to instead of going on forever makes me trust a story far more.
Not to mention the disappointment of investing in a show or franchise, then it turns to shit part way through. I doubt there are many new people getting into the first GoT TV show since everyone on Earth knows the ending sucked.
Yeah, I got interested in watching Succession because it's over and people didn't hate it after.
There's no reason for me to spend hours on a show, just to end up hating it...
@@dahken417 The ending of GOT didn't lure ppl away from House of Dragon
This has been my thought process for the past couple years. Stick the landing and it was all worth it. I refuse to ride a ride that has no sign of stopping.
Yes, everybody wants to see that ending
It's not a case of multiverse fatigue, it's a case of multiverse stories that are written terribly fatigue. Across the Spider-Verse proves that multiverse movies can be great if they are written well.
The comic books have done this several times over the decades and maybe the legal issues with copyrights and different companies having intellectual property over different characters is easier to get past with a comic book story that is only a few issues long. Maybe 100 million dollar movie has more complicated legal logistics than the comic book crossovers but I am wondering if there is going to be a MOVIE that combines the Marvel and DC heroes? Its not as strange as you might think because it has been subtly hinted at at least twice (maybe more, I did not see every movie but AT LEAST twice).
1. In the Toby Mcguire Spider man Superman was MENTIONED when Toby's aunt told him "You are not Superman you know"
2. In the ETERNALS a child asked one of the characters if he was Superman.
Are the DC heroes fictional characters in the Marvel universe? It seems to go in only one direction as I have never seen a Marvel character mentioned in DC.
everything everywhere all at once - and I know it's a bit separate because it's not a superhero movie or a part of a franchise- is also an incredible multiverse movie that proves that point! I think on top of bad writing it's also just tiring to have to watch every single connected movie to understand the newest one coming out.
@@Zurround in the cw flash show I know cisco makes a hulk reference at some point. I'm sure there's probably more references but I haven't kept up with the arrowverse in years, I just remember people making a big deal about it when it happened. I don't necessarily think that these references allude to a possible crossover, I feel like dc and marvel are so competitive that it's become increasingly unlikely for it to happen- especially on-screen. i know they've always been competitors but they at least seemed more amicable in the 70s-90s, which is when they had the crossovers you mention; they even had trading cards. dc has done crossovers with other publishers since then but marvel very rarely does so, probably because of them being owned by disney? anyways it's a cool idea but I don't see it happening (unfortunately)
Nah at this point it's multiverse fatigue. I'm sure I'm not the only one that doesn't give af whenever multiple universes are mentioned now, it's the new fad like zombies in the early 2010s
@@bee.ok666 I am fascinated with the idea of different stories and characters being in the same fictional universe together. I count MULTIVERSE connections as the same fictional universe from a story standpoint even though scientifically a multiverse is different from a universe.
You mentioned the "arrowverse". It is connected to several other shows and movies in a multiversal sense due to the Crisis on Infinite Earths storyline. I am trying to figure out if due to their own multiverse stories if the current DC movie franchise is connected to the arrowverse. I did not see the Crisis episodes, only what was posted about it on RUclips. Maybe Mike Keaten was Batman on that show? It is a HUGE STRETCH and might not be official but in one brief scene the "Earth" of the late 1960s Batman show was shown during Crisis on Infinite Earths and the actor for Robin was shown as an elderly man who was retired from crime fighting (sadly the Batman actor passed away, Adam West, maybe they made that part of the story, that that universe's Batman was gone).
AND in the newest FLASH movie when he was doing some hybrid of time travel and multiverse travel other versions of Batman and Superman (and a different Flash) were shown and it was kind of a dreamy montage but I remember for maybe a few seconds of screen time seeing the Adam West version of Batman. If so it might be technically true that the Arrowverse and the DC movies are connected if they both take place in the same multiverse as the 1968 version of Batman.
Some of the best multiverse work I have watched (as a child and looking back realizing how well-crafted it is now) was the DC animated series that included Batman the Animated Series, Superman the Animated Series, Justice League/Unlimited, Static Shock and Batman Beyond. It started with Batman and the writers added to the universe by making Superman and testing the waters within the animated solo shows with teamups between characters before premiering the actual Justice League show. They childhood cartoon but some of the themes and plots were really memorable and impactful, not to mention they had gotten amazing voice actors (RIP KEvin Conroy).
14:52 Christian Bale was in Thor: Love and Thunder, not Ragnarok, but I don't blame you mixing up the two with how many Marvel movies there are now and how forgettable some of the recent ones are
I have literally never heard of Thor: Love and Thunder until this comment 😂 So yeah, I’d say pretty forgettable
Idk how forgettable it was Taika Waititi directed it so I contractually have to love it 🫶
@@erinfuller5542
Contracually?
Bruh.
@@erinfuller5542he isnt that good
Studios flooded the market and cut corners and made bad decisions to fit the pace of release. Executives are killing franchises that could have lasted a lot longer in order to make a quick buck. So while we are fatigued as an audience, it's because the company chose to overwhelm us with lower-quality stuff than what we originally got. I don't have multiverse fatigue, I have cash grab fatigue.
I think for me the final hit was Loki. What's weird is that I *really* liked Loki, like it's probably one of my favorite things marvel has put out even if it probably could have been executed slightly better. But they just did absolutely nothing with it, and now it feels like it might as well not be a part of the canon. If you're going to make a multiverse im invested in, at least make it consistent.
This is why I like the Monsterverse approach: the movies are loosely connected, there's one every two years, and it features Godzilla and a bunch of monsters punching each other in the face. In other words: they don't saturate consumers, provide a self-contained experience and deliver on what they promise.
Aint nothing loose about the godzilla universe 😂
MONSTERVERSE SWEEP 🗣 🔥 💯
I didn't know there was a Monsterverse.... what movies it is made of?
@@julioagua The recent Godzilla movies: Godzilla (2014), Kong: Skull Island, Godzilla: King of the Monsters and Godzilla vs. Kong. The next one is Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire.
@@At0mS8 Interesting! Thanks...
Same issue happened in comic books for me as well. I would get really invested in a specific line and story arcs and then suddenly it all gets dropped and changed to fit "universe event #8766".
For instance, Straczynski's Spider-Man (which was one of my favorites) run was infamously mandated to make some awful narrative decisions to fit the Civil War story that still haunt the character.
And Peter David's irreverent and hilarious reboot of She Hulk was also completely destroyed by a forced inclusion into Secret Invasion, and all the storylines were dropped for it.
The idea is cool that characters can intermingle and share a world but it gets to a point where half of what you consume is just setting up for the next event and individual characters matter less.
And the styles become so homogenized when comics (and comic movies) used to allow individual writers, illustrators, directors, etc put their own spin on things.
Mainstream comics (and now movies) used to allow for different tastes to be enjoyed with seperate stories but now if you're not interested in the bigger universe plot then there really isn't much for you.
love your point on JMS's Spider-Man run, I think it rings so true! The choices from Civil War and particularly One More Day are definitely still haunting current Spider-Man comics, especially with an editorial team that attempts to antagonize MJ constantly, while committing general character assassination frequently. It makes things like Spider-Verse so bittersweet because fans love to see Peter thriving and growing up, but the mainline "Amazing Spider-Man" comics refuse to even glance in the direction of a Peter Parker who has the maturity of his pre-2008 counterpart....
I mean the choices in Civil War itself were handled amazingly and everything about the ASM Civil War arc was basically perfect. It was just them undoing all of it in OMD along with decades of character development that caused problems.
@@apersonwhomayormaynotexist9868 I really did not like what they did with Peter in civil war. In a vacuum it was good if you consider the CW story by itself. But in his own comic he had the best situation ruined by it.
I loved seeing Peter with MJ and as a High School Science teacher. I think it was a way for Peter to be an adult while still maintaining what made Spider-Man great.
That even as Peter he helped people and he still struggled with money and personal while being a superhero. And he was actually allowed to be an adult and a version of himself matured from years of stories.
But then he had to drop everything interesting about his own story to basically be Tony Stark's son and the face of the unmasking initiative and I feel like it ruined his personal arch as an individual character.
For CW it was good, with a hero dealing with trusting someone and exposing his identity. For the character himself (at the time) it wasn't imo.
Going back and reading Amazing Spider-Man runs from the 2000s really hammers this problem in. You go from the fallout of Civil War/One More Day, to an event about Skrulls, then you go into Dark Reign where Norman is a big time government figure.
By only reading ASM you have no idea what’s the hell is going on.
i was a huge mcu fan in my teenage years, because the story was easy to follow and i liked that it was intertwined between different movies even if the writting wasnt spectacular, but as i grew older, saw other movies and finished that chapter with endgame i cannot bring myself to care about these new projects at all. its so souless its unbelievable (not that the previous movies had any soul to them, but they were much more fun)
When you mentioned the Mandalorian, in my head I wondered about how season 3 will be when it comes out, then remembered it actually already came out and left so little of a lasting impression that I completely forgot about it.
Season 3 was so lackluster… except for maybe one episode. They peaked too early with season 2.
I think it’s a bummer how people didn’t like mando season 3 as much but I think it’s because how people expected it to be ONLY plot driven. It was an incredible season, arguably the best, for character development and world expansions.
The mandolorian peaked at episode 3
@@noahwright3519 Yeah that's a shame man
@@stormtraitor6545 Yeah I agree Season 2 was awesome
everything everywhere is definitely the best movie to come out of this multiverse-frenzy. Speaking purely about how it utilized that aspect to tell a story, I don't think even spiderverse beats it
No, across the spiderverse is but EEAAO was great too
Agreed. Made it unique and never needed to reference any other multiverse/time travel cliche
Across the spiderverse stomps it, but I see what you’re saying
I think they both did a great job at what they were trying to do with the multiverse concept. EEAAO used the multiverse concept to tackle themes of nihilism whereas Across the spider-verse used the concept in various ways, like for example, as a meta-commentary for the relationship fans have with the canon of spider-man, to challenge the idea of pain and tragedy being essential to one's journey (more specifically spider-man's journey), and also as a way to bolster its subtext. They both also did a fantastic job of using the concept to enhance the character writing / personal stakes rather than use it as a cheap way to make the story feel important. Sure, one could argue that the way that EEAAO tackles nihilism makes it more "important" but both do a fantastic job at using the multiverse to tell each of their individual stories.
@@ArtAngelE "a multiverse works well when it's integrated into a single compelling story, not struggling to hold together a bunch of otherwise unrelated movies and TV shows". THIS EXACTLY!!!!!!
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 was a SURPRISE hit for me. I'm very biased because of my own personal fantasy of being a space outlaw listening to 70's and 80's music but I think Vol 3. really worked well because it was centered around Rocket and his past and gave him room to breathe as well as elaborated on a lot of his actions and tendencies from the previous film. Because they chose to center it around a specific group of characters (but really focus on one) it really felt like a better movie and a lot more standalone. For once in like 3 years I didn't feel like I was watching a film JUST to see what was at the end.
This is why I loved Andor so fucking much, it was a story worth telling that they told in the Star Wars universe, not a pseudo-story created just to keep that Universe busy. My partner has seen ZERO Star Wars media but watched and loved Andor with pretty much no explaining needed from me. I live in constant fear of some Glup-Shitto-ass cameos inserted by Disney into Season 2 because the first one blew up critically.
I’m optimistic about Andor season 2 just because I don’t really think the creator wants to do it.
A lot of other Star Wars properties are headed by Dave Filoni, and he actually enjoys putting the cameos in.
😅😮😊❤🎉❤😊🎉❤😊😢😮❤😊😂😅❤😮😂❤😅😮❤🎉 4:26 ❤
5:03 5:03
8:14
8:14
I’m actually really happy that Star Wars never tried to do a multiverse or cinematic universe with other properties, that universe just needs to stay by itself
This is exactly what SW is doing lmao
@@Nah-wg6dw
"so I imagine we’re gonna get a lot of the classic Filoni/Favreau “smash toys together” fan service"
What?
The monkey paw curls
@@Nah-wg6dw Yep, but unfortunately the average Star Wars fan still thinks that Filoni is the savior of Star Wars.
@@lukew6725
He does write some good stuff, but the fact that ‘Andor’ is the best recent ‘Star Wars’ thing right now and Filoni had nothing to do with it is hilarious.
The Christian Bale “Oh good for you!” clip never gets old. The way he says it lol
I can't believe Christian Bale was invited to yell at the world famous Burbacks. What an honor that must be for him.
This is so validating. I’ve considered myself a big fan of both franchises, but it has gotten to the point where I can’t keep up. Which makes me question whether I can even call myself a fan of these stories and characters that I know I loved/love so much.
Also, I love the parts where you laugh with each other after a bit. It makes it feel like I’m goofing around with siblings.
Thank you for your work!
Meanwhile I still feel like I'm waiting constantly for more stuff. It's been a while since we had an MCU show, so I'm really glad Secret Invasion is out. And there's still months to go before their next movie.
@@racool911 yea the last show came out like 9 months ago and we've only had like 3 movies since then. Secret Invasion hype 🙏
These characters are being and have been better represented in comics - where they are much more willing to create compelling narratives about characters and the implications of their lives.
I have become very cynical about the cinematic universes and am skeptical there will ever be improvements there.
@@racool911 why don't you just read the comics if you want more?
I do think Kevin is listening. He's always addressed that they are slowing things down. And we can already see that today. The amount of MCU stuff we got this year is down a lot from last year
Time will tell if they've actually changed for the better.
I feel like Star Wars Visions always flies under people's radar. Great two season anthology series where studios can bring their own voice to the already fantastic setting and explore fresh ideas and themes. This coming from someone doesn't keep up with any of the other stuff besides Andor.
they always forget about the holiday special too
I love Star Wars Visions! That's the Star Wars content that makes me want to have more Star Wars (compared to the other stuff that makes me feel kinda numb). The self-contained stories touched upon in these episodes are so promising!
Season 2 really impressed me
Yeah but anime sucks
I jumped off the rollercoaster after End Game and I have never regretted it. I might check out the new Guardians, but when it comes to the overarching story I think I’ll stick with reading fanfic 😂
guardians 3 was actually really good you should check it out
No Way Home was pretty cool.
Thought moon knight was really good myself! It took its place as a brilliant stand alone story :)
@@derp3044 yeah. if it wasn’t supposed to be part of the MCU, I would’ve liked it a lot more.
@@wilhelmbuzzkyll eh just ignore that fact cause it's not like they reference any other marvel/MCU stuff anyway
Absolutely, everything. So noticeable in Guardians especially - my family wastched the first two movies in prep for the thirds cinema release only to be hit by "because you haven't watched two other films that aren't part of this series, you will have little idea of what's going on throughout". So confusing, and forces people to watch nore shows- now you need to put in the effort for a TV show in order to watch anything Marvel
Idm the insane amount of multiverse stuff, I just want original and good content.
I recently played Jedi: Survivor fully through and that was really good that taught me how good an IP can be when focused on a single character. I think we could stand to get more enjoyable stuff within the universe without needing the background information.
Andor
I’m so glad to see someone finally agreeing with me on mando season two. I thought mando season one was perfect. It was its own self contained story with references to outside material, but was still its own thing and then from season two onward, it became like a crossover every episode.
You can almost hear the executive suits telling them what to put in season 2 now that it was a proven success.
@@ianskates427 high-ranking executives are part of why book of Boba Fett was such a mess. They are the reason that Grogu came back, after not even one season of being MIA because they needed more Grogu merch
this just makes me more commends not just vfx artists & writers but also art directors, film composers, stunts choreographer and more; this video has shown me that these real artist behind a movie doesn't get enough appreciation especially in superheroes industry
honestly the thing that upsets me the most about the multiverse and all it’s franchises is how much space they take up in your average movie theater, just like martin said. as someone who now lives in a small town, and used to live in a bigger city, there are no theaters within a few hours away from me that show movies i want to see- because they just can’t afford to! they are almost single handedly running independent theaters into the ground… and it makes me so sad
Anytime writers run out of ideas, they pull the "time travel" or "multiverse" card. Infinite possibilities.
God when a movie or show introduces time travel or multiverses it usually sucks. The only times it works is if the movie is intrinsically about either of those concepts. So movies like back to the future and into the spider verse work. I think a show like Loki works in a self contained environment, it’s an interesting concept and a multiverse is intrinsic to the plot. However taking into account the greater MCU I don’t think it works at all, and just think it’s completely unnecessary.
I think something that is being overlooked with the 'multiverse fatigue' is how reliant on nostalgia these films are becoming. I know the MCU has always relied on call-backs, easter eggs, and a certain amount of fan service to satisfy the "die-hards", but what worries me is the way nostalgia has slowly crept in to the point it is now central to the narrative. Spiderman no way home is the prime offender because while for some it may be enjoyable to see characters from different universes on the same screen, it's only really satisfying when you have an appreciation for the Raimi and the Garfield movies. If you consider a hypothetical marvel fan who hasn't seen these other franchise films, then you realise that the movie is fundamentally unsatisfying because both the heroes and villains have had their characterisation outsourced to the point that significant moments and the accompanying pathos have no logical root in anything that has happened in the film (e.g. McGuire stopping Holland from killing Dafoe, Garfield saving Zendaya, Alfred Moulina becoming good again). Eventually, this type of self-referential narrative has to collapse in on itself, as you eventually end up trying to reference something that is itself a reference to something else.
Crossovers and multiverse plots, which are also usually crossovers, too often rely on cheap fan service with unlikely interactions between recognizable characters and excessive action sequences instead of earning those moments through strong storytelling and grounded narratives. Multiverses tend to have the additional issue of being overly complicated and removing any meaningful stakes by essentially opening the world up to infinite possibilities. Any decent fictional universe has constraints because it makes the universe feel more consistent and fleshed out.
Most of that isn't entirely true.
Actually, there were two Clone Wars series, one made in between Episodes 2 and 3 that was *incredible.* It aired on Adult Swim if I remember correctly, and the whole thing is on RUclips now for free
I think it was Cartoon Network instead of adult swim.
Star Wars didn’t really have any “mature” media by that point, and a given how big marketing is to Star Wars, it made more sense to put it on the time slot viewed by kids.
@@phabiorules admittedly it’s been years since I saw the original series, you’re probably right about where it aired
I do think it's possible to do 'multiverse' stories well. But you have to keep in mind that each story needs to be fully self contained, and shout outs to the larger setting need to be something that a casual fan can easily pick up on.
My go to example for this is the Discworld series. It's an overlapping universe of satirical fantasy novels with each book following one specific main character. Usually the major characters are separated from each other either by geography or by class, or even just by time, dealing with different problems.
When characters DO crossover though, it's always in a way that you get them in a sort abbreviated format. i.e. you get them from the perspective of the character they're meeting for the first time.
You don't need to know the back story of Sam Vimes when he first meets William De Word or Moist von Lipwig, you just need to know he's a damn good hardboiled cop. You don't need to know William De Word's deal, you just need to know he's the intrepid reporter.
Yes, you can read all their stories. But none of the stories are written so that you have to. And really, everything you NEED to know about the discworld to appreciate each novel can be fit on a single book page, and usually is skillfully inserted into the prose of each story so you don't even notice it's there.
y'all really articulated a progression that i experienced that i struggle to explain. avengers (2012) was my first favorite movie, my first fixation, and spent my 10 yr old self into the world of fandoms. while i was always on top of the lore, i guess i really was much more of an average viewer than a diehard fan. once new chapters were being released twice a year, i felt the commodification in full swing. it just lost so much of what made the movies appeal in the first place - genuinely good comedic and heartfelt superhero arcs. but the shift to release series as well was the last straw for me, i quite literally didn't have the time to keep up w it.
also, love the complete lack of mention of the agents of shield show - the broadcast precursor to the disney+ series
I gotta just say how much I appreciate how effortless funny as well as relatable this video format is. It’s like talking pop culture with ya homies.
that christian bale tape of him losing it on set will never not be funny.
Part of me genuinely hopes that James Gunn's DCU work out well since it's moreso the start of something new rather than a continuation like post-Endgame MCU is. It's not about the fanservice or cameos that make people enjoy CBMs, it's the stories that can be told with them, the characters we focus on and their relationships and dynamics (the main reason why Gunn worked well with them, as seen in the GOTG trilogy and The Suicide Squad). I hope he can cook with Superman: Legacy...
Something that is probably going to start to be adapted in the next decade is Brandon Sanderson's Cosmere. It has the potential to be the antithesis to the current strategy for creating interconnected properties. The primary reason is because each story, in universe, is separated by years, decades, or centuries. There's an inherent chronology to how Sanderson writes the connected works and series. E.g. there's about 300 years between Mistborn: The Hero of Ages (series 1) and Mistborn: The Alloy of Law (series 2). It offers a kind of reset in terms of what to keep track of and makes series 1 influence series 2 as recent history, rather than extremely connected phases. And those two series are even more separate from The Stormlight Archive. SA takes place on an entirely different planet with different characters, but with a few people working in the far background or simply crossing over between the two series, with essentially no attention being brough to these crossovers. (It also helps that this is grounded by setting the conflict in a galaxy, rather than across a multiverse with no time-travel shenanigans.)
The Cosmere, as a property, has the potential to work a lot more like Phase 1 of the MCU: a series of connected stories, but not overlapping stories. Avengers 1 was enhanced by watching Iron Man, Thor, &c, but it wasn't necessary. I think the main cause for fatigue is all of these overlapping stories. They're trying to make Kang into the ultimate BBEG and the Multiverse a world-shattering event, but the requirement to follow every movie and TV series involving these two aspects makes too difficult to follow. If they only connected them chronologically, then it might have been easier for audiences. Instead, it's hard to tell, but it seems the multiverse splitting in Spider-Man: No Way Home, Loki, and WandaVision are all simultaneous moments where the Multiverse splits apart. This is a very uncommon structure. And for a reason. We don't experience events simultaneously. It's all chronological. Trying to process simultaneous events makes it difficult to follow the story as a whole.
In hindsight, making Loki the point where the multiverse comes to fruition makes the most sense, and that should have been the inciting incident. Every other Phase 4 story should have followed from there and dealt with the event in a distinct, chronological order. Having someone like the Watcher act as a narrator and someone to provide some exposition to keep audiences grounded would also have been helpful, too.
The multiverse breaking is not simultaneous at all. WV has nothing to do with the Multiverse breaking. Loki takes place out of the timeline, so for everyone else the multiverse has always existed. NWH wasn't about the creation of the multiverse but an incursion, just like MOM.
I'm sorry, multiverse splits? I've not seen anything marvel other than Spidey 3. And whoa, THIS is happening?
The way Eddy and Tony laugh in unison is very gratifying
Having Eddy look right into camera and tell me i stink very abrasively made me burst out laughing.
This is more about interconnecting universes rather than multiverses, but this reminds me of the time I tried to watch the arrowverse entire. At first it was fun, but when it came to the point where I had to switch between 4 shows after each episode while I only really cared about 1 of them it began feeling like a real chore to get through and I ultimately stopped because it was too daunting of a task.
I just watched The Flash and Legends of Tomorrow and just gathered everything else from context clues. It wasn't really that bad.
Loved the video, you made a lot of great points! Two small corrections:
14:54 *thor love & thunder, not ragnarok
15:44 *two animated tv shows, both named clone wars, in addition to an animated movie with the same name
There also was two animated tv shows **Droids** and **Ewoks** made in the 80's, along with two made-for-tv movies about the Ewoks. There also was the Star Wars Holiday Special, while we are on things Lucasfilm tried to forget.
I'm so glad for the writer strikes because man we need a break or a brake from this
"From 1977 to 2008, there were a total of six Star Wars movies and one animated TV show"
And a holiday special, a Droids animated series, an Ewok animated series, plus hundreds of novels and video games and an ongoing comic series that all formed a continuity that, prior to Disney's acquisition, was definitive and expansive.
Yea I was gonna say
He mentions that, but they were easy to ignore, and 90% of people didn’t know they existed. You didn’t need them to enjoy the movies. It was also far from definitive. Legends consisted of a bunch of contradictory, and largely self-contained, stories that people could engage with at their own pace. Even among the minority of people who knew about the games and novels, they tended to like individual parts of it. You had your KotoR fans, or Dark Forces Fans, or Thrawn Fans, and those could all be enjoyed independently of each other.
Found the nerd who reads guys… get a load of this guy /j
No no, all those books are just "legends".
Unless Disney decides something in them is good, then it was for realsies.
Emperor clones woooo
@@williammccallum4760 "...that all formed a continuity that, prior to Disney's acquisition, was definitive and expansive."
One of my favorite movies from the MCU is Captain America: The Winter Soldier. The villains - Bucky and Pierce - were so well designed that they genuinely felt alive in the story despite exhibiting evil behaviors. There wasn't any soft/hard magic, or macro-scale threats, but rather a plot focused on wrapping up the Hydra arc to some extent.
The quote that hit the point home is from Jon Favreau: "... It's not like there's a finale that we're building to that I have in mind. Quite the contrary, I love for these stories to go on and on.". The new wave of stories coming from Disney aren't designed as stories, they're designed as IP. While some would love to argue that's the point of a business, it most certainly isn't the point when dealing with creativity - which is primarily the core skill of every well-written story. Ironically enough for people using the business argument: the "businesses are meant to make money" line is exactly why creativity is thrown out the window, because almost every well-designed project will either break even or generate a small amount of profit.
the success of this channel makes me so happy. been watching eddy for years now and after everything that has happened i’m just happy to see it land in a place that he seems happy with and passionate about. really excited for you guys, i hope you both feel proud of your content and satisfied with your place in life.❤
p.s. sorry i stink, it’s cause i just farted
What happened?
I didn't even really understand why I wasn't having fun at Marvel movies anymore and had no interest in watching all the shows on Disney+ unless I heard about superhero burnout, and now that you guys mentioned multiverse fatigue, that's exactly what it is. The novelty of a crossover has been driven into the ground, and I just don't have the time or patience to get through dozens of movies and shows to understand what's going on. I miss movies with fantastical elements that are truly character focused and emotionally grounded. The only projects I've really enjoyed from Marvel and Star Wars lately have been the Spider-Man films, Wandavision, and the Mandalorain up until the latest season which felt totally directionless.
I got my degree in media studies & industries, and it goes without saying that the main issue with Cinematic Universes is time. Given that Time = Money, the corporations are gonna want to push out as many films as possible in order to get ahead & meet theoretical & trend-based demand. However, Time effects how long writers, directors & editors have to work on these films, and as we've seen ever since the Thanos/Endgame Saga finished, these projects aren't given as much as they need (alongside competitive workspaces & insufficient pay). I find the combination of Across the Spider-Verse succeeding and The Flash bombing as bad as it has to actually be a good sign for Disney & Warner Bros. to realize what audiences want (alongside the current strikes raising awareness to labor conditions).
I like long form storytelling, but at this point I feel like I need to do homework just to understand new movie releases
Just watch a 5 minute recap video and you're good to go
This is a cinematic universe... it's your own fault🤷♂️
@@NS-xx1ze that doesn't matter lol.
@@racool911 almost no one is gonna do that
The way you guys will low key bully each other and then stop and giggle is incredibly endearing lol
Thank you for sharing this. I have felt this way for a while basically since the end of season one of Mandalorian and got a lot of heat from MCU and Star Wars fans for not being as involved as they are. It was just exhausting trying to keep up with every storyline for every franchise. Just give me a movie that’s good and something that I could follow.
I dip in and out of the series, preferring self contained films. I really enjoyed Shang-Chi because it focussed on building new characters, following their story and I didn't have to memorise plot threads or understand references to TV shows that came out 5 years ago on a streaming platform I don't have.
Shang-Chi was my standout Marvel movie from this phase for exactly this reason. It focused heavily on its own plot and characters and kept reminders of the interconnected universe to brief cameos that didn't impact the plot (though even then I still had a moment of "okay that's the guy from the Dr Strange movies and he's fighting... some big monster? Oh he's friends with the monster? Is that a monster I should know? Eh whatever they're off screen now" lol)
Shang chi was dogshit. the main character doesn't even have a personality
Another thing that should be noted is studios changing plans last minute leaving both the visuals and writing lacking in both creativity and cohesiveness. There was a story about how Elizabeth Olsen stoped memorizing the scrips for Dr. Strange: MoM because how much much it was being changed and with Justices league (2017) visuals being completely altered.
As well with Thor Love & Thunder most of Christians Bales scenes being removed to make it a “funnier” movie. There were supposed to be scenes with him cutting the tattoos out of his skin to show he no longer worships his God. Similar to Rogue One and Solo where most the movie had to be reshot to appease the Upper-heads of Studio management.
Aspects like this is killing movies where the most interesting parts of trailers and promotional material will not be in the final product of the movie.
With major studios wanting multiverse stories it is clear that this hurting each individual film as they scramble last minute to have it connect with the one before it either visually or in its writing while being production telling their own film.
God I love y'all channel mans. You guys play off each other so so well, it's a perfect blend.
I’m so glad they made this video. I’ve felt so disconnected by marvel the last few years and this puts it into words so well. I’m just so disappointed that something I used to love so much has become impossible to keep up with and connect to.
I like the of a multiverse where its just a different world that has a wildly different art style, design, or idea. which is why i enjoyed spiderverse because its all these different styles and ideas clashing together in one space and seeing how they interact with each other.
My favourite use of multiverses/shared universe is for dnd games. Running things in the same universe in different times in different places is so awesome when you find relics of a party from the past (or figure out that what you’re doing was the reason that something happened in a campaign set in the future) and fleshing out the world is so satisfying
I have thoroughly loved this channel so far. Keep it up, y’all!
Can’t wait for the Rainforest Cafe multiverse movies
Too much of anything is BAD
~Mark twain
This fits perfectly for this whole mulitiverse disaster
HELL YEAH you called out the Jimmy + Timmy crossover!!!!!!! A true revolutionary piece of art.
Did you hear when they called it ugly? 😂
@arria7956 oh god I didn't notice I'll pretend they didn't lmao
@@_wegota2319_ - Hahaha that's the best reaction 🤣
I have been ruminating on the recent popularity of multiverse related stories just this morning, and to see this video released an hour ago is quite surreal ngl
The section about planning out a story and its ending makes so much sense. I find that the best franchises happen around a core story that is expanded on in the same universe with stories that are adjacent to the main characters. That’s why guardians of the galaxy worked so well, it was set in the MCU and had ties to the larger story, but it had its own themes and really developed its characters.