Why China's Shenzhou is Better Than Russia's Soyuz
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- China's Shenzhou spacecraft is heavily inspired from Soyuz, and there are likely systems copied directly from Soyuz. However, with the benefits of 21st century development it's not wedded to many of the limitations imposed by the Soyuz heritage.
Which oddly enough means that between the last flight of Shuttle and the first Crewed flight of Dragon it was the best operational human rated spacecraft.... I never thought about that until I wrote this description.
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If those ex-Soviet engineers are anything like me, they spent the whole time telling their Chinese counterparts: "And I wish I had done this differently, and this, and this ...."
Your planes are falling apart. Get real.
Ah the engineer's universal prayer: "I wish I did this differently"
@@barnabuskorrum4004huh what?
Ignore that weirdo he's harmless@@Usrthsbcufeh
@@barnabuskorrum4004
1. Your
2. The planes are falling apart because of mismanagement, not because of the engineers.
3. You're (which stands for "you are") right in one thing: the American education is trash and getting trashier by the hour all while the Chinese, Indian and especially Russian engineers are less and less likely to immigrate into the United States and save your industry.
I was in primary school in Shenzhen, Guangdong when Shenzhou 5 launched, and on that day the school made all the students gather in the multimedia room (which is like a big big room with projectors and a stage and seats enough for the whole school) and cancelled all the classes for the period when the event is broadcast live on TV. That sure was a good day of no classes, but it also kinda sparked my interest in spaceflight, which I kept to this day.
Amazing!
History has proven that China can't be trusted. Should we address their supposed summit of Everest? How about a bioweapon that crashed the World's economy?
I remember the same thing happening at my school for the Shuttle maiden flight... and I wasn't even in the US!
My school stopped everything so we could watch the first Mercury flight and the first Mercury orbital flight. I was very young, I think I was more amazed that the school owned TVs. And yeah, now I'm old.
Really? You remember watching the launch he just said was not broadcast?
Must be amazing to have the space to safely land a new spacecraft,
Here in the U.K. the largest area we have uninhabited and empty is the trophy room at Bournemouth Football club
There were a couple of runways which were available for the space shuttle in the event of a trans atlantic abort scenario
There’s Scotland, pretty empty up north…
@@scottmanley ofcourse the spaceshuttle could target a landing site.. a craft like soyouz is more prone to outside influence and probably bad at targeting a specific point/zone.
@@scottmanley One was RAF Fairford in Gloucestershire. I was there in May 1983 when Enterprise landed on the piggyback 747. What a day! We were so close at the parking stand that the 747 wingtip was right in front of us.
@@ivarbrouwer197 The modern capsules are actually pretty steerable on reentry so they can usually aim and get within a couple squaremiles of a target depending on winds. In the Ocean not a huge issue but starliner has to stay within it's landing zone on land.
"Better not to piss in diaper, baby doesn't like it, neither does an adult" has to be one of the best lines ever spoken about human space exploration
Alan Shepard learned that one the hard way - and he did not even have the diaper!
@@Sparweb_Projects true, but he got his "revenge" some years later as commander of Apollo 14!! He even golfed there!! LOL ;D
There is way too little talk and information about chinese space program in the english speaking internet.
Very happy to see you take this up and I hope you cover their other projects as well.
There's not a lot of info on the Chinese speaking internet either!
@@captaindunsel2806 I imagine that's because the whole space program is more secretive than US, ESA, JAXA etc. programs, so there is not nearly as much information available to begin with. Not just that it doesn't travel to public discourse on the internet.
@@kukuc96 You would be more secretive about what you are doing if you have a competitor that publicly states they intend to sabotage your program, slow your progress, and spend billions of tax payer money on smearing campaigns.
@@moss550 nah, rather their entire manned spaceflight program is managed directly by the military. A lot of programs started like this but split to better focus on their goals. Most of the major players like NASA, JAXA, ESA are civilian in nature. Even Iran has two programs.
@@moss550 I'm curious to the source about publicly stating those intents
Several years ago I was in Shanghai for business and being the geek I am visited the science center. They had a massive display about the Chinese space program. I was embarrassed in how little I knew about what their program had accomplished, it was quite impressive.
I mentioned what the Chinese have achieved, the a friend of mine, who is an earth scientist working at a prestigious European university, was first puzzled and then surprised after searching online.
Hard to share it with the world when nearly all forms of social media and regular media used by the outside world are banned.
There is no shame in not knowing what goes on in a country like that. It's by design of the CCP.
@@ulyssis I love White people and their subtle racism of low expectations. It makes blindsiding them trivially easy. The best part is they *never* learn.
I recently read a lovely illustrated history of the Soviet manned space program and I'm struck by how much Shenzhou resembles the original proposals for Soyuz that were subsequently scaled back, particularly the orbit module.
What was this illustrated history?
Yeah, several of the Soviet engineers had some really neat and ambitious ideas.
And I also read a collection of essays about the early conceptual works on Shenzhou. Surprisingly to me, there's actually two different ways even after they decided to using the overall configuration of Soyuz (i.e. the orbit-reentry-service modules), and the alternate design was actually looked more western-style, with a truncated cone capsule that looked like Gemini or even early version of Dragon!
@@Dayznology The Soviet manned space program by Phillip Clark.
What was the name of the history? For those interested, I highly recommend "Challenge to Apollo" by Asif Siddiqi.
This happened 200 years ago with steam locos. The US, new to industrialization, imported Scottish and English locos to get their first RRs operating. US machinists had to fabricate spare parts...then back engineered cloned, but the clones eventually were improved.
Then they became specialized to the frontier terrain that did not exist in Britain or France....becoming a much more capable loco line for the purpose...and Beitish machine shops started integrating some American innovations to incorporate into their colonial Empire railways.
Eventually at the end of steam Britain had some beautifully elegant, fast but quaint engines to pull trains through the rolling English countryside. The US had Big Boy and Challengers to drag mile long teains over the Allegheny and Rockys.
gonna write an alternate history novel where the British Empire intentionally supports the Confederacy and sanctions the Union for stealing IP. Maybe at some point the Confederates lose the mainland and have a government in exile on a little island off the coast like Cuba or PR
Also see the Harrier aircraft...
Love old trains, hence a whole hobby, industry, restoration, following, etc. today devoted to their construction, and layouts as models, worldwide. A most lovely innovation was steam, for any vehicles' power, for example.
High art and engineering for us essentially lowly stupid little f'ing monkeys, I think!! ;D LOL
The clever thing about the three-part solution is that the landing capsule can maintain its position relatively easily thanks to the simultaneous separation, because the recoil from the two separated parts is roughly equalized. I seem to remember that American engineers were also very enthusiastic about this solution.
(It's like when the American re-engineering of the Soviet test space plane BOR-05 revealed that the Soviets had recognized and used principles that were still unknown to the Americans. As Scott last year showed, the resulting model developed at Langley became the mockup for Dreamchaser).
There was never any three module proposal in the American program. To the best of my knowledge, the modules do not separate simultaneously, and, either way, it would make no measurable difference to the reentry module's orbital dynamics.
@@odysseusrex5908that's not true, GE had a proposal for a 3 module Apollo capsule which had measurable benefits over the in house NASA Langley design which ended up being developed. Additionally, the simple fact that you would have similar impulses imparted on the descent module in opposing directions to one another would provide the effect OP described, provided that capsule orientation remained the same and the separations occurred close enough to one another
@sirfirewolfe5647 I believe this was the Apollo D2 concept. The reentry module was called the GE headlight because it was shaped like an old automotive headlight, two hemispheres of differing diameter joined by a short conical section. Soyuz appeared several years later with a similar shaped reentry module. Part of the reason for the stacked configuration of Soyuz was the R7 based launch vehicle had a very slim upper stage so an Apollo type capsule would give the launch vehicle a hammerhead shape.
Those orbit modules are pretty cool. You could build a little bit of a space station by just docking them up and leaving them up there after each mission.
My thoughts too when I saw them.
But later I learned the orbit module only has hatch on one side so you cannot connect them. And even if you add additional ports, connecting multiple orbital modules will result in a wobbly space station and too many toilets.
@@xinyansun9174 you could add some kind of truss. and you can never have too many toilets
Good point 😸
But
I am split on the toilets
A personal potty? Excellence in waste disposal redundancy?
These are serious issues, really 😐
@@xinyansun9174 This is exploitable... You can make a dedicated module with 6 docking ports specifically designed to carry a bunch of Shenzhou OMs to serve as the restroom hallway on a large station.
"You could build a little bit of a space station by just docking them up and leaving them up there after each mission."
Not very functional. Remember, space stations tend to be put in orbits relatively close to Earth, as that lets them use the Earth's magnetosphere to protect against the worst radiation, meaning that a lot of rad-shielding can be skipped that is required for outer space.
What this ALSO means is that the orbit is affected by the outer parts of the atmosphere. Which means that you must add enough fuel to the thrusters that you can do minor maneuvering burns often enough.
Regular capsules usually does not have the fueltanks for this.
Also, lifesupport needs change from shortterm, which capsules are designed for, to longterm, which they cannot handle.
So no, sadly just putting them in orbit and slowly joining old ones together into a station is not an option.
Also, the crew still needs a way to get back down.
May be because Shenzhou is at least 40 years newer than Soyuz ))))
China stole the technology, as usual !
Soyuz was only 15 yrs old when Putin seized Russia, but Putin has been too busy doing "other things" for him to worry about keeping his nation's manned space program alive.
My immediate thought
So there’s been no improvements made by the Russians on their Soyuz in 40 years ..
40 years? Weren't the Soyuz introduced around 1960 I think?
10:20 That wound was caused by his mic hitting his lips on ship landing. The most dangerous period in SZ5 is actually during its ascend, the ship was resonantly vibrating with rocket at 30-40K height, and Yang described his experience as "my organs being shaken into piece and when that was finally gone I feel revived". He and other Taikongnauts are really heroes for us.
11:00 There's a trivia upon this scene: They were running out of time for the spacewalk (before the ship got out of telemetry area), and the door was stuck. Apparently it was due to 1kPa of remaining air in orbit module, and Zhai brute-forced the door open, and the rest is history.
I also want to add that only SZ 1-6 have automatic orbit modules with their own solar panels. SZ7 do not have them, and from SZ8 ships were batch made, also without solar panels.
I was in elementary school in 2003 and I am sure we all watched Shenzhou-5 mission live on School's television that year. The false alarm happened during EVA in Shenzhou-7 was also live on TV.
Was initially announced to be live streamed by CCTV a week before launch, however the day before launch CCTV announced they had been ordered by the government to cancel the plan and only show pre-recorded highlights. So they showed video of launch a few minutes after it happened and reported landing but the number of crew onboard and the crews identity was kept secret by the government until after the successful landing.
2006年
神五那个直播是延后的。知乎上有人说过了。正常是9点多点火，但“直播”是10点多。
I remember watching the broadcast of Shenzhou 5 as a kid on the bus home from school. I stayed glued to that tiny TV, missed my stop, and had to walk half an hour back. That day kindled my passion for space. Today, an experiment I designed just went on a "zero-G" parabolic flight. If I keep up the good work, perhaps one day my work will be on a real spaceflight.
Also fyi: Shenzhou in Chinese means Divine Vessel. Mengzhou means Dream Vessel, and the space station, Tiangong, is Havenly Palace, or more directly translated as palace in the sky. Lots of mythological references, just like Japanese and Indian space programs, which I enjoy.
Thanks for sharing that.
China did develop much of its own technology in the Shenzhou. But to the extent that they copied or borrowed from the Russians, remember what Leonard Da Vinci, the greatest inventor of all time, once said: "What one can copy, one can do." There is an enormous amount of thought and labor that goes into copying, and the outcome is insight, know-how, and sometimes, innovation.
You just couldn't do it _until_ you copied it.
Also it wasn't blind copying... They paid for russian expertise and designed an enhanced version.
I vaguely remember some early Chinese taikonauts being trained in Russia too
Are you a Chinese robot?
They improved those earlier designs
Also reverse engineering and copying technology is a lot more difficult than a lot of people give it credit. It's more than just seeing what parts are used and how they're arranged, you have to build the industry and logistics to support all that.
Always great content and contextual coverage - thank you!
I'm guilty of being one of those who thought Shenzhou was simply a slightly enlarged Soyuz, but there are so many obvious differences now that you've pointed them out. Watching the last landing coverage on the English language Chinese channel, I was intrigued by the Gamma ray altimeter. I'm sure that's a Soyuz feature too, but I'd love to know why gamma-rays are "better" than laser altimetry, especially with all the precautions required to keep recovery crews out of harm's way until the gamma source is appropriately obscured.
Dust, aerosols, clouds - all can give lidar false readings. Gamma rays can see through those.
I heard Gamma ray altimeter can work through stubborn heat shield piece that may still be on the aircraft, or deep snow cover ground. All of this is necessary since the precise ignition of landing thruster during the last few second before landing is vital part of landing process.
@@KVP424 At an altitude of 6 kilometers above the ground, the heat shield at the bottom of the re-entry capsule will be jettisoned to reveal the retro-thrusters.
@@user-nl4wd5oc9jYeah I know that. I was mentioning about scenerio where there are some potential anomaly, which gamma ray altimeter can still work despite it.
Yes it is a feature of the Soyuz from the beginning. A simple way to way to make a ground sensor where the "transmitter" will always work, with gamma ray detector that picks up the back scatter in the final few meters of the descent. When the intensity of the back scatter reaches a pre determined value, the detector fires the small retro solid rocket motors to significantly reduce the "thump" as the capsule hits the ground.
It is due to the highly radioactive gamma ray source on the bottom of Soyuz and Shenzhou, after "thump down" the 1st person to approach the spacecraft is always a person with a 2 meter long stick with a lead plug on the end. It is the "gamma source plug" persons job to cap the gamma source opening and thus make it safe for the rest of the recovery team to approach.
I like that you are able to compliment another country's progress without judgement. Great job. I loved this video.
True, and in the "final analysis" we are all the same ape decedents, worldwide. So, any progress in space by any of us is a "giant leap for ape-kind"! Right Scotty, you old chimp you!! ;D LOL
Communists are bad, scientists are not bad.
@@grapesurgeon yes, and I made some sweet and sour pork with rice just last night!! Good "communist" food! ;D LOL
@@grapesurgeon Really? But it was so good I'm having it again tonight, re-heated as we speak!! :D
BTW, we still have something free speech in Our part of the world here, so far anyway!! So, good luck, in whatever "armpit region" of the planet you live in, ...chump! LOL ;D
@@grapesurgeon LOL ;D
Interesting video thanks for sharing Scott
But I still love Soyuz, with the beautiful Korolev cross, 60 years old work horse still carrying people to the space. Time tested and reliable.
You need to give credit to the true originator, the R-7 ICBM of 1957. Soyuz is just one of its many derivatives.
@@dewayneblue1834 ofc, the whole evolution of the R7 family.
At least in the early days, they got artists in to add paintings of nature scenes to the inside of the orbit module, to make it a bit more homely for the cosmonauts.
The korolev cross is still an stunning thing.
@@dewayneblue1834well, by that logic you can go back to the beginning of the universe
Also interesting to note that the taikonauts that flew on Shenzhou 6 and 7 became one of the first commanders of the Tiangong Space Station over 14 years later
In my primary school, during the week of shenzhou 5 launch, our teacher had us doing all kinds of activities related to the space program. Everyone get to choose their own projects to work on. It was such an amazing time, I chose to do a presentation on the space suits. i edited and made then printed manuals for the different space suits for each of my classmates (each manual was like 20 pages long). The time i spent reading on how the suit design decision definitely changed how my life turned till now. I still think back to how i enjoy designing and making stuff. I now hold a degree in physics and a degree in computer science. Space programs like this have the ability to change a generation of people.
Great video, Scott! Thank you for making it!
Yup! "Great Scott, another video"!! LOL ;D
It's very unfortunate the three biggest players in space flight have never truly gotten along. Imagine what we could have seen with the US and Soviet Union working together in the 60s and now what the US, Russia, and China could do if we all got along. What a world that would be.
Well the same could be said here on Earth. Imagine a world where countries cooperate with each other. If we can cooperate in space, why not also on earth
они и так сотрудничают, в основном благодаря коррупции и в области шпионажа по принципу враг моего врага мой друг, благо конкурирующих разведок в мире предостаточно, так что диффузия знаний неостановима.
the fact that Wernher von Braun and his top engineers where snatched by the US, who than failed to understand and exploit the treasure trove of knowledge regarding rocketry they had claimed, not by chance but by design of von Braun himself, still irks me.
the fact that the Soviets became the first to establish a presence in orbit although they could only rely on the engineers and knowledge base of level 3 and below is quite fascinating.
@@HrLBolle член НСДАП барон вернер фон браун вывез с собой в США архив массой 43 тонны и весь коллектив специалистов своего КБ, что-то из этого всяко американцам пригодилось.
@@alexgood1056 danke für das schließen von Wissenslücken. Es gibt immer jemanden der mehr weiß als man selbst.
Thanks for closing the knowledge gaps. There is always someone who knows more than you.
1:38 Project or rather “Program 863” stands for the year 1986 - March. It’s actually a big program not just for manned space missions but also covers a long list of important state funded projects in areas including space, biotech, IT, material science, etc.
When Scott Manley starts using Juno instead of KSP for demos, it's a sad day for KSP. ⚰
Never heard of Juno
Scott Manley has been using Juno: New Origins in his videos for months if not over a year by now. It’s better for things that can’t be easily modeled in KSP, as you just download someone’s craft instead of hoping someone made a part mod for the parts of whatever spacecraft you want to show.
@@GreyDeathVaccineJuno: New Origins was covered by Scott Manley in a video from about a year ago. You can watch that.
@@KellyWu04 thanks. I wasn't paying attention before but the recent news about KSP2 made me take notice.
Didn't Scott's channel start as just a Kerbal thing?
That was very, very interesting Scott. I have read different things saying Shenzhou is better than Soyuz and that it is just a copy. Now I know for sure. Having the Orbital Module be able to function unmanned after the manned mission ends is absolutely brilliant.
It's not "objectively better"))). Soyuz is a self-sufficient spacecraft.
1. The Soyuz manned spacecraft has been a means of delivery to the ISS for more than 20 years. It doesn't need a large orbital module to do this. A regular household compartment is sufficient, where cabinets and a toilet are located. Let me remind you that during the ASTP flight, four cosmonauts and astronauts were placed in the household compartment of the Soyuz.
2. The reason for the use of the Soyuz spacecraft so far in the latest modification of 2016 is that this spacecraft is the "rescue ship" of the ISS.
3. The descent vehicle of the Shenzhou spacecraft is completely copied from the Soyuz-T lander modification in scale. Yes, it turned out to be longer, but in the case of transport operations to the station, it does not matter, since the crew is delivered to the ISS today at a regular launch of about 3 hours.
4. The latest modification of Soyuz - MS (upgraded systems) has a fully digital system and interfaces, including a new remote control. As for the periscope, this "Vzor" system is left for additional security, which is not mentioned in this video.
5. As for solar electric panels that do not rotate on a gimbal, this is a vestige of the fact that this design has been used for more than half a century, but it is also a smaller weight of this design for the instrument and assembly compartment.
Fascinating stuff indeed! Thanks, Scott! 😊
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Hey Scott. It would be interesting if you do an episode about grid-fins ❤
This
I loved this video, would love to see this turn into a series
Thanks! Interesting and entertaining as always.
I love that you use Juno to show the Shenzhou mission profile, you're the reason I started playing it, and I've been hooked ever since.
I assumed it was KSP2. Does it (Juno) compare well to KSP1 ?
@@connycontainer9459 absolutely, i love it. Played both KSP1 and Juno and i have to say i love Juno so so much more
Long Live Juno
@@ExcaliburAerohello
@@connycontainer9459 Very comparable to a modded KSP1, and with procedural parts. Best of all, it works on Mac, PC, and mobile devices.
It's neat to see the technological and human aspect to this vs the pure political aspect. It's neat seeing what humanity can do, regardless of the political climate.
Great topic , thank you Scott
Just a pronunciation note because these things are often tough, "Mengzhou" in Standard Chinese is pronounced more similarly to how an English speaker would say "mung" in the first syllable (eg, "uh" sound instead of the long "e"). Obviously this still won't be perfect pronunciation (lacking tones) but it's a bit closer to it.
mung actually sound further than meng from what it suppose to sound like.
@@lagrangewei yeah, I kinda also had a second thought too, because "mung" could also be very far from correct. Really need to brush up on IPA to get a reasonable answer here, because English pronunciation can be very ambiguous.
The footage of the space station in Juno at the end has reminded me that I need to play Juno again. Very underrated space game.
I googled this and realized I had it in my Steam Library! Thanks for calling out the name of the game!
@@CryptoJones yeah! Was originally called Simple Rockets 2, but they renamed it to "Juno: New Origins" with a big update a while back haha.
Something I did in KSP is strap 2 boosters to the side of a larger payload to get it into orbit. Imagine Delta IV Heavy but a space station with an interstage instead of a full stage.
Was wondering how practical would having stages mounted horizontally instead of Virtically would be? Obviously we're now seeing Falcon Heavy but they're just the launcher.
Great channel!
Love the Juno footage! I dont have KSP, so its great that my favorite space game is getting some love.
Some points:
·Shenzhou is not just "larger", but actually being larger a lot. The exact diameter of Shenzhou's reentry module is 2,517mm, while Soyuz is 2,250mm. The habit volume of the module is 50% larger than Soyuz (6m3 vs 4m3), made it the largest reentry module before the "new gen" capsules like Orion and Dragon (all at ~9m3).
·We all know how the Komarov died because of one of the solar panels on the Soyuz 1 failed to extend and charging the batteries for parachute system. Well, this won't happened on Shenzhou - the Shenzhou's onboard battery itself could sustained the spacecraft for full power operation of 4 orbits, 6 hours. That means if the solar panel get stuck on Shenzhou, the crew will still have quite a lot of time to deal with it or just abort for emergency reentry. 4 orbits is enough to choose the downrange, so that they can return to the launch site instead of just landing in somewhere randomly in Pacific Ocean or Siberia... (and if they have to, the battery in the reentry module will be able to maintaining the satellite comms and emergency beacon for at least 24 hours. Leonov will be happy to hear that.)
·As for what happened on Shenzhou 2's parachute, rumors said it was because of the radio alttimeter somehow false-alarmed and cutted the chute before the capsule actually touched down. So as we know now, the Shenzhou's alttimeter still insisted to using gamma radiation source instead of simply radio to make detection, even that'll means there will be some dangerous and complex procedures after landing to sealed and removed the gamma emitter.
·There's 4 main engine nozzles behind Shenzhou's service module, as you can see. The service module's main propulsion system is double redundancy, with each pair being one of them. And, like the SPS of Apollo, all the valves and pipelines to the engines are double redundancy too. And even if both of them are all failed, the RCS thrusters will be the last redundancy, which is also double redundancy.
·CASC is always overstressed when it comes to reliability. Like, there's a insane requirement on the Long March 5, said the insulation layers must being able to keep the loaded LH2/LOX properllant for 24 hours after loading, in the 30°C+ hot summer of Hainan! That means ridiculously thick of foam layers that reduced the rocket's structure efficiency, everyone thinks that's crazy and completely unnecessary, untill two weeks ago when the Chang'e-6 just easily lifting off in the thunderstrom striking Wenchang.
·Also, since we come to redundancy, if you want to know, the computer system is triple hot redundancy in reentry module and double cold redundacy in orbit module. The computer system is based on MIL-1553 bus, if you're curious of why will China have MIL-1553 system bus, well, maybe you should search on "J-8II Peace Pearl".
10 inches...yeah, massive.
@@ThatOpalGuyIt is a significant increase in volume.
@@ThatOpalGuy You never flown on commercial jets right? That's also the difference between the width of B737 and A320.
Ever thought of “Space Shuttle” or “Arian 5” while pulling bull shit over the insulation of LM5? The later one is literally launching on the equator
@@ThatOpalGuyThat is a lot, take a look at the Soyuz interior, it is very cramped. 10” extra width means far more volume, far greater crew comfort.
It's almost like having literally 10x the GDP buys you some more engineering work hours.
It's not the size of the GDP but how you use it. For several decades Russia has spent too much of its GDP - or rather the GDP of the other states in the Soviet Union (without asking them of course) on this technology. And they are still far far ahead of China in most regards. The recent progress in Shenzhou are partly the result of Putin being Xi's little bitch ...
Eh, actually, China has "only" about 5 times as many STEM graduates per year as Russia.
And Russia has by far the highest average quality STEM graduates in the world.
Meanwhile, Russia also graduates twice as many STEM graduates per year as USA... With less than half the population.
That's when you kinda realise there's an issue somewhere.
@@DIREWOLFx75 Russian STEM graduates suck by comparison with the rest of the world. But yeah, the US education system sucks bigger eggs. Also, the ultimate intelligence test for Russian STEM graduates is the question if they want to stay in this doomed country that may send them into battle at any time.
@@DIREWOLFx75 well idk about highest quality coming from Russia but they do have a good education system and more STEM graduates per capita. It’s a testament to those things that Russia has kept up at all but China the US are clearly ahead by merit of just throwing sheer resources at Spaceflight.
@@DIREWOLFx75 The Chinese education system is geared towards producing competent STEM workers, so while STEM graduate numbers are roughly equal to the US on a per-capita basis, the number of STEM workers is much higher than in either the US or Russia. These are the technicians and machinists and non-academic researchers who have vocational STEM training but no college degree. In China these people are absorbed by SoEs and trained up with on-the-job education. So you end up, for example, with a coal engineer who never went to any kind of university but holds a professorship in power plant engineering (rewarded by the Chinese Academy of Sciences) and publishes engineering papers three times a year from their work on the field. All the actual university graduates line up for internship with them.
Outstanding! I am sure that this "episode" had way more hours than your average one.
3:43 Side note on the rocket width: If we look at the Long March series. Bigger ones aren't any wider. They only get longer and longer.
The rockets need to be transported by train to the launch site in Gansu. Then assembled on site. There are notoriously numbers of mountains and tunnels along the way. Thus, the rocket can't get any wider or they won't fit the tunnels.
US doesn't have this problem because KSC is in Florida, next to sea. Rockets can be cargo shipped in.
In recent years, China opened the Hainan launch site, which is also near sea. So, the newly designed rockets no longer have this constraint.
My trip to Cape Canaveral is next week. I planned it last year just happens I might see the Starliner
good luck. dont bet on boeing being ready by then, sadly.
@@ThatOpalGuy at least I’ll see a Starlink launch lol
If it's Boeing, it ain't going...
@@andyonions7864 they take the saying that takeoffs are optional to heart
Excellent Scott we dont get anywhere near enough info on the Chinese space programme so thank you !
Space always makes me feel better. Thanks Scott!
Yup, that's why we bought a really big house!! LOL ;D
Whattup Scott! Love your stuff!
Congratulations on better pronunciation of chinese. You're nearly there, Scott.
Pretty sure the angara 5 is being prepared for human flight with a new Orel capsule being incorporated. The have pretty ambitious plans over the next 5 years.
I made a flying model rocket of that one, along with some other Soviet launch vehicles, have not launched it yet, but the Soyuz, and Vostok both fly great!! :D
Russians have always had such „ambitious” plans that by now they were supposed to have base on the Moon 😂. That guy Rogozin was always promising something spectacular.
@@olasek7972 Right, and old time NASA did too. We were supposed to have even Mars explorations and bases by the 1980's, but changing "world events" always get in the way of such "ambitious" plans. That's true, particularly in democracies, where our leadership changes often occur, back and forth, 180 degrees, every four years or so!! That makes it hard to plan "long term" projects!! ;D
@@ronschlorff7089 actually no, no NASA administrator ever engaged in such nonsensical boastful propaganda as Rogozin, with NASA, you could always check what was approved by Congress, what was funded and what projects were currently in the pipeline.
Shenzhou has those bulky packages in the descent module. Those contain survival supplies, same as Soyuz, right? Including a life raft?
Is the orbital module still available for the crew on Soyuz or is it packed with cargo? The toilet is in there and the ascent/descent module is damned cramped. Do they always manage to make the quick 3 hour trip now?
Great vid!
Such a pity that we can't all just get along in space, and cooperate. It's impressive what China managed to build up rather quickly. Imagine that, but with international cooperation!
Yes and no. "International cooperation" can also result in adding a lot of complexity and costs with no measurable return.
The reason they developed so fast and are banned from the space station is that they stole every bit of technology where they could
Most likely they wouldn't have came as far as they have if US didn't banned them.
NASA programs are not known to be on time or on budget, and Galileo has shown ESA is more of a hindrance to their development.
International competition is part of the reason that Tiangong exists in the first place. Sometimes cooperation just results in a mess - "too many cooks" with all the cooks being national governments full of little factions with competing local interests... is very bad news.
I think human psychology is such that cooperation will always be less likely to give good results than good old competition. Humans naturally only innovate when in a competitive environment.
can you make a video on why the boosters on chinese rockets are tilted ~10° outwards? thats gotta reduce the coaxial thrust quit a bit
@Sinwar, they try to point through the cg, so eccentric thrust doesn’t cause pinwheeling.
What’s co axial thrust
most all rockets cant their boosters inward. its not just a chinese thing
The smarter everyday video on vulcan covers the cannted nozzles on the boosters really well.
@@steveschunk5702 difficult, as the CoG changes, continuously, during the flight.
What is happening with Starliner? Would you like to make a video on that? Thanks.
That picture of LC. Yang Leway holding UN & Chinese Stitched Flag is Very important. surprising even.
Well duhhh. It's 30 years newer. What do you expect.
Well, Americans built rockets to land on the moon 60 years ago, they can't do it now.
Hey there why didn't you answer the question between the dog, monkey, or rabbit which was the Capt
I was going to ask that, too. It sounds like the start of a joke. "A monkey, a dog and a rabbit are launched into space..."
Well, that's obvious: it's known as "Follow the ... rabbit!".
I’ve always liked how all of the different space programs have such iconic looks to them.
That pendulum solution is... Unique! Very Uri Tuchman.
The orbital module being its own independent spacecraft seems like such an obvious idea in retrospect.
People don't understand that when someone makes a copy for himself - he makes it better. That's why Buran was better than a shuttle, and that's also why Shenzhou is better than Soyuz.
Buran better? It didn’t fly though… how can that possibly be known?
@@mduckernz Well for one it did fly, fully unmanned which the Space Shuttle never could do. It had a higher payload capacity then the Shuttle, and it was safer because it didn't use Solids.
The TU-144 wasn't better than Concorde...
@@paulsengupta971 to be fair, Tu-144 is rushed and did first flight earlier than Concorde iirc
Hay Scott what game was that where you had shown the craft in orbit? it looked kinda like kerbal but was way different
That's "Juno: New Origins"
Hi Scott!
Land safe!
If it ends up with a record like Soyuz I will be thrilled, those old tubes have been sent up countless times
I still love that the Chinese used freaking wood for their heat shields. Meanwhile on Orion…
they are making some satellites with wood as well.
K.I.S.S.!
@@ThatOpalGuy lol anti China bot
@@AAAAAA-tj1nq Lol pro China bot
And meanwhile on Starship uncontrolled re entry is how it's done.
Thanks Scott!
Great video...to be honest I always assumed that Shenzhou was just a repurposed Soyuz design, and not it's own thing. Interesting to see while they are similar, one is actually not like the other.
0:45 Just like the Soviets with the Voshkod based satellites but reversed!
Technology Transfer
OMG, flag flapping in air at 12:27, even China are in on the conspiracy. (I'm kidding, don't respond to that)
Didn't a UK RUclipsr find Buran abandoned in a hangar a few years ago then get humiliatingly ejected from Russia causing a bit of a diplomatic issue?
The Fentyan space suit is a redesigned copy of the Orlan-M space suit, which has not been used on the ISS for a long time. Currently, space suits of the Orlan-MKS modification are used on the ISS - they are fully computerized and have a plastic sealing layer. They also have a nadir porthole on the helmet, which is now usually closed due to the use of hoods from American spacesuits with an American television system.
8:37 Those names were the first generation Chinese astronauts. Most of them managed to fly crewed missions in the later years.
GREAT POST!!! Learned a lot. Do you think we will ever see a Shenzhou docked at the ISS, or a Dragon at the Chinese Space Station?
Don’t forget Wolf Amendment of the US.
That's not a matter of technology, but diplomacy
No. The West has zero trust of China, so they won’t allow any Chinese taikonauts onto Western spacecraft.
это возможно только в чрезвычайных аварийных обстоятельствах как в фильме "Гравитация",когда дипломатия должна уступить ради спасения людей на орбите, так что лучше не надо.
I got chance to see shanzu1 shanzu5 and shanzu 7 capsules
that would be fun to see.
Appreciate the SimpleRockets2 footage
Technology builds upon previous technology. Surely most people know that. For example, newer computers are much faster than older computers. That does not mean that newer engineers are better than older engineers. It just means that newer engineers can take advantage of the work that older engineers did.
Curious Marc has an awesome series where they restore and explain the sojus globe...
Yes they do, it was an amazing piece of hardware in the 1960's
still is
If it hadn't been for China's Shenzhou, I'd have been married a long time ago.
You should listen to the real version of that song.
@@camojoe83 I wasn't aware there was a non-real version
@@quattrocity9620 the one by the wet brain disco turkeys is not the real one.
The real one is about someone that has to spend his life watching over a relative that was beaten by prison guards into a blind, broken man and sent home.
@@camojoe83 hmm never heard of the wet brain disco turkeys
Underrated comment
Scott, not on topic but I have a question for you and anyone else with enough knowledge. Could spacex put receiver dish on every one of their satellites pointing out to space and create a lot of super large radio type Telescopes?
any reason shenzhou orbital module not added to space station as an addition to living space before departure?
Without Russia's need for cash in the 1990s, it probably would've taken at least another ten years or so for China to develop something similar to Shenzhou in capability, and who knows how much longer for something like Tiangong.
The chinese wouldn't even have developped Tiangong if the U.S didn't decided the ban them from the iss, they just needed it because of that political move, they're perfectly capable, you know both the ussr and the chineses had a rather rough century, they were both respectively invaded and colonized, and they had bigger fish to fry like educating their population and resolving poverty, all the while they had to rebuilt their cities, farm, roads and life from millions of dead, the U.S that seized the opportunity to rule over a destroyed world after ww2 shouldn't even have been catched up on if it was an efficient country, however it is not and it's never been.
@@user-vo8zx2uj1p the USSR was colonized? It was the colonizer; The direct descendant of the Russian Empire, however vehemently it may have disputed it.
@@saadisave I said respectively, china was colonized, ussr was invaded by (unprovoqued) nazis who slaughtered 26 millions peoples, russians were the victims of the most brutal genocide by far in the whole history, yet all that interested our leaders are the genocide on the jews who did 20 millions victims less, i'm not going to argue over the number 6 millions killed is still an scandalous massacre, however it was way worse for the russians. What ussr managed to do while having lost so many people to the germans, and with the need to rebuilt, plus massive sanctions and isolation from the west, lack of ressources, and inevitables internal struggles due to the overall situation, was simply astonishing.
Same deal with China, the ccp just had no reasons to be the winners of the war, they were fighting nationalists backed by americans, and japaneses who had colonized them after europeans, we can also add 3 warlords factions, all had vast armies and a technological advantage and more ressources, and the ccp simply couldn't rely on ussr in thoses time, yet they managed to assemble the majority of the population behind them, tired of the persecution of the armies of Chiang Kai-shek, and the humiliation of the invaders, that's the sole reason why the ccp could win, because they were favored by the people over the others... Ussr and china did expanded on territories that we can argue were originally not their own, but that's still their areas of influence nevertheless, culturally and historically speaking, it's still way more legitimate by a mile than any european country colonizing africa or some far away place...
Plus considering what kind of hell was unleashed on both of thoses nations till only a few decades ago, it's rather hypocritical to ask/tell them anything now that they're reaching height that we don't want them to reach, particularly so when westerners countries are still delivering extremely unfair and brutal wars all over the place for oil and seizing different assets for specualtive purposes.
I can talk however i want for what my country is doing i'm french and i do have a negative view on our colonisation, i'm not thinking i have to be sorry for the descendants of the peoples our ancestor killed however i do wish we would just leave them be, my gov don't seem to be agreeing with this. In this moment New Caledonia (is that the right name in english?) is revolting over a new set of law that was passed by our gov, they're mostly independantist and i'm agreeing with this, we have nothing legitimate to do on the other side of the planet.
@saadisave
lol
@@saadisave My comment was instantly deleted amazing, it was a huge brick so i'm going to that again but i did said "respectively" ussr was invaded china was colonized.
Thanks really great you spent time on Chinese space development, very neglected area ❤
A deliberate attempt to keep you think the west is still a space dominant player, until well the Chinese set up a moon base😢
Single stick version of Long March 10 apparently will have it maiden flight in 2025 or 2026. So I assume they plan to test Mengzhou again when that rocket is ready.
Sure gotta be soon enough considering the developpement of all flight elements has ended at least 3 years ahead of schedule.
how long can the orbit module stay in space? can they dock it to the station to create extra room on the station after the capsule has returned even temporarily, or even act like the progress to receive waste and re-entry
6Mo and not anymore(from SZ7); and not very good economically (have to spend money and weight optimizing long-term life support and connections for sub-adequate living space)
I sure hope it would be better than the 1960's era design it was based on 🤣
"Шеньджоу" не может быть хуже, т. к., во первых, он на 50 лет моложе, чем "Союз", а во вторых, Россия передала Китаю многие технологии "Союза". Странно, что кому-либо нужно что-то доказывать.
Russia didn't transfer any technologies to China. They learned it all by themselves. Russian not that kind at those time. Space station also 100% Chinese technologies.
@@aungaisum8654dude, you don't even know what you're writing about. Chinese space station is an adoptation of Salyut
The three module setup makes a lot of sense even if you have a fatter rocket to work with, as it saves mass by making it so you need a smaller volume and mass to reenter.
There was a very similar setup to Soyuz and Shenzhou submitted by General Electric, the Apollo D-2. The big visual difference was the aerodynamic shroud remaining in place.
Very nice presentation Scott. 100% correct. You nailed it nicely.
Yes the Chinese did purchase the plans for the Soyuz and Mir in order to reverse engineer their own manned space program. They went out and bought the most reliable system that had a long history of success.
Yes they did make it bigger and roomier and the Chinese Orbital Module is a vast improvement over the Soyuz original given it has the ability to function as an independent satellite, including its own RCS system and the ability to self deorbit.
When a Russian Soyuz reenters, it does Not jettison the Orbital Module until after a successful deorbit burn. This came about when I believe when an early Soyuz crew had to spend an extra day in orbit, after they had jettisoned the Orbital Module. A very cramped 24 hours, with no food or water and not toilet.
So the Russians now keep the orbital module until after retro burn, just in case they have to cancel a landing or for what ever reason, the retro burn fails. Keeping it give the returning Soyuz crew more living space, food, water and a toilet for the 24 hour delay until they can make another attempt to come home.
As always Fly Safe.
Which more important? Hmm... 1) Create Digital Control System 2) Avoid nearby villages with discarded boosters..
Well from what I gather those thing are more of a problem for inland Southern Launch site. Different department of their space program and all that…
Just happened to check RUclips and then this is posted a minute ago. Fancy!
What are the chances!?
I love your usage of Juno: New Origins for visuals!! It's a hugely under-appreciated game for what it's capable of. I feel like most people tend to "default" to the Kerbal games simply because of their popularity and never give newcomers like Juno a fair shot. It's a game that definitely lives "under the shadow" of KSP, but has a lot to offer.
One thing I have noticed about Chinese launchers is the colour of the rocket plume. It seems to have a brownish colour, at least when it lifts off. I know this could just be dust from the ground being blown away, but I also notice it later in the flight as well. Does this have something with the type of fuel mix that they use, or is it just my imagination? I know, odd question, but ever since I first noticed it watching Chinese launches, it have been curious about it. Thanks!
I really appreciate that this video was well grounded and nuanced, especially with how it praised and appreciated China's ingenuity in Shenzhou's development. This was a real good video.
I kind of assumed that long ago. Russia's education system collapsed around 1985 so most of their engineers are retiring or dead. They've been outsourcing their technical people for decades and have been cruising on USSR tech to this day.
The Russian education system has remained exactly the same, look at various international tournaments, Olympiads and competitions in physics, mathematics and programming
Indeed, it's more that opportunities for the smart, well educated people are much better elsewhere.
@@MrSkipLim I worked as a control engineer for an american oil company in Russia about a decade ago before I retired. I learned from the locals that most of the technical schools collapsed in the 80's. The universities still exist for those that can afford them but the level of technical education dropped like a rock compared to the USSR days. The US also used to fund more technical education when I was younger than today so we are in something of a similar situation (although not as critical) as we outsourced to China over the last 30 years.
That's what money tends to do. Every dominant culture convinced itself that it's more scientifically minded than others but scientific mindedness didn't jump randomly across cultures over time, and it just so happens that they were all the richest people at the time.
Isn't everybody's suit a copy of the Russian suit? Space station, manned aircraft.
You forgot to say that not only the Chinese copied the Soviet Orlan spacesuit. The new American spacesuit Axiom Space is also an almost complete copy of the Soviet spacesuits Krechet and Orlan. The Krechet spacesuit was created in the second half of the 60s for the Soviet lunar program. The Orlan spacesuit is the same Krechet spacesuit, but slightly modified. Orlan spacesuits have been used since the first half of the 70s on Soviet and Russian space stations for spacewalks, and they are also used on the International Space Station. So astronauts from all over the world were able to experience them, study them, wear them, work in them, and see how much better they were than American spacesuits. There is also at least one Krechet spacesuit in one of the US space museums. This is not surprising, since after the collapse of the USSR many things and ideas flowed from it to the USA. The genius of the idea of the Krechet and Orlan spacesuits is that they have a door in the back through which the astronaut simply enters this spacesuit, as if into a small house, or a small spaceship. An astronaut can put it on alone, without the help of other people (unlike American spacesuits), and very quickly. This brilliant idea of Soviet inventors seems very simple at first glance, but no one could come up with this brilliant idea before them. It is probably simply impossible to come up with something better than this idea, so all other countries have no choice but to copy this brilliant idea. China has already done it and now the US is doing the same!
The space suits look like upgraded versions of the existing US space suits
@@m.a3914 No. The Axiom Space suit that NASA chose for its new lunar program has a door in the back - just like the Soviet Krechet and Orlan spacesuits. Apart from these spacesuits, no other spacesuit in the world had this. This is a brilliant idea, it’s impossible to think of anything better than it. Therefore, the Chinese simply copied the Soviet spacesuit. The Americans struggled for a long time, suffered for a long time, to invent something of their own, different from the Soviet ingenious spacesuit. But this is simply impossible. Therefore, they did not give a damn about their pride, and also simply copied the Soviet spacesuit :)
@@user-dn5cz3pv3e Axiom are fully US development, the best in the world!
2:35 the Shuttle was such a boondoggle. We found the most expensive way to get payloads into space.
and yet without it we wouldnt have some of the things we have today. but, yeah, greed and mismanagement increase the cost of most every project.
It was also the most advanced spacecraft ever and had unique capabilities, but most of them were not used. I was a nice
too many cooks, too much swiss army knife.
@@ThatOpalGuy space shuttles was a failure. 2 of them went boom
@@AAAAAA-tj1nq What made them a failure wasn't the loss of two ships, it was that the idea was bad to begin with.
Thanks for the history lesson!
Scott what is the software you use to show us these orbital sims?
It is a space game "Juno New Origin"