Rad Feminist Instantly Quits Debate After Hearing Destiny's Logic
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- Опубликовано: 15 сен 2024
- DEBATE: Destiny debates Meghan Murphy a Sex Worker-Exclusionary Radical Feminist (SWERF) and accuses him of being manipulative, showing off before quitting after less than 30min...
Date: 21 Feb, 2022
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Destiny, you LGBTQ?
girl name
Destiny your mom just texted me.
destiny my dear maybe u need four more study the womans. i no u have wife now but u need educate four understand from she what is inside her branes even if u marry four her physeek and she is no knowledge. mans and womans very differently my dear. my wife no same my father. my father no same my sister. my sister no same my cousin. u see what i meaning? four this i want u look four very famous Anasuya Sarabhai. she explanation the woman xcelent my beauty. allso maybe no xcelnt idea four make blue hairs. but if you are san francisco i make respect four all who enjoy same with same four making.
@@olajuuusso1135 this no kindness. no speak four the mom like this my country. say apologize
This is clickbait. The title says "Rad Feminist" and I didn't see her perform a single kickflip the entire video.
Not even a pop-shuv, smh
Her brain was tre flipping throughout the whole video.
Underrated comment
i know dude, straight BS
DO A KICKFLIP!!?
The fact that 99% of people destiny talks to don't understand that he's asking them to clarify their position is honestly baffling
Oh I think they do. I think it's just that the realization is happening in real-time where they're figuring out that simply by having to answer a question or clarify their stance, how hollow or lost their position really is. Most people in a debate /argument attack with counter claims and counter arguments, but asking questions is, in my opinion, one of the most brutal and effective methods to dismantle an opponent's weak position.
@@burner918 Its a great method for filtering out the first-degree idiots. One level above is this is the people who think something dumb, but have a logic explanation for their belief and hold that belief consistently across different hypotheticals.
i will also add he hardly debates anyone on his level to make him look good like he finds the bottom of the barrael
@@dylanmcmahon3162 watch his discussions with Alex O connor and Matt dillahunty.
Also, I'm pretty different about Destiny (he doesn't rectify his questionable points sometimes) but to be fair it's not his fault these people are morons. The point is that people with extreme views, both and left, are extremelt vocal about their unsubstantiated opinions
@@m-linko i agree also sometihing even he said before these people that have built a whole persona online around be far left or far right can't or won't change oppions publicly because that alienate any the brand they have bulit up for so long
her leaving because Destiny was acting exasperated while also laughing out loud at the hypothetical idea of a man selling sex to a woman is peak self-awareness.
I mean what woman gotta pay for it though. Most male sex workers are indeed gay and getting railed just like their female counterparts.
Apparently she’s never heard of a gigolo. It’s way more common than people think
@@redeyedbuggers one of my friends in law school worked as a gigolo for a few months, i saw him a few times going on dates with old women. We don't really talk about it but when we do he essentially goes "it was kinda gross but i don't regret it" when we joke about it. It's kinda infuriating to see people reduce a concept or act to a particular experience and disregard any other as useless
I am a Gigolo AMA.
@@silotx how many female gigolos do you know?
So, basically she’s against sex work but won’t just say that she’s against sex work because that would be infringing on a woman’s right to engage in sex work even though she’s automatically a victim for doing so because she was coerced? That’s what I got from that. If I’m wrong, somebody help me out.
Yes thats what i understand. Pro victim.
100000% accurate
"Deductivelly disabled" god damn thats the perfect insult for these types of people.
is the same thing as saying they are stupid and dumb
basically pointing out their low IQ 😆
@@manumaster1990 More specific and accurate, but sure.
@@manumaster1990 🤓☝️Don’t forget remedial
Ti polr.
"Hypothetically, how would you feel if a woman consented to perform sex acts for money on camera and said she was happy to do it? Would that change your mind about exploitation?"
"What do you mean? They're being exploited."
"Yes, but hypothetically what if she were okay with getting paid to have sex on camera?"
"Why are you being so manipulative?"
It's like she's admitting that she's disingenuous. If someone is simply asking about your position, and that process feels like they're manipulating you into saying something you don't want to say, that means you're hiding your true beliefs.
Because to the mind of the arrogant intellectual inferior, logic is an assault on it.
So Andrew Tate did nothing wrong?
@@-47- she’s saying it’s inherently exploitative though, which it is. it’s ironic that destiny brings up organ selling, because that is indeed an illegal behavior. do we think this should be legal ? do we think the military having predatory tactics is actually good because those poors should just go be cannon fodder ? this thinking doesn’t rly work for me
@@dspicerj What? onlyfans you set up yourself = sex trafficked to romania? lmao
Meghan is like the female Sneako. She's so fundamentally incurious - about whether she has good reasons for her beliefs, about the possibility that she might be wrong, and about other ways of viewing the world than her own. She's that perfect combination of smug and wrong that's so triggering... it's like she's an AI that's perfectly tweaked to test Destiny's patience. I'm surprised he didn't go Nebraska Steve on her.
Sneako's incredibly curious, the bravado drowns it out unfortunately
@@neXianXaviaX that sentence doesnt add up.
I was going to say female Runday. Neither of them would ever entertain that they might be wrong.
@@sarcasticdragon8673 if you’ve watched sneakos content he’s always asking questions he’s always wondering where the truth lies I’m pretty sure in a year from now he’ll be a completely different person.
@@SouljaFred When it comes to issues hes made his mind up about all his "questions" are just attacks not real curiosity or consideration
It is literally so disrespectful to the victims of trafficking to even slightly compare it to selling feet pics and pussy pics because that trafficking victim didn't consent like an OF model in the slightest. She's so ass-backwards. I hope she heals whatever bullshit she's got going on to make her think that heinous shit.
She still never explained why she’s against two consenting adults doing sex work even when the bad peoples aren’t involved
I think/understood from the conversation even showing genitals is already graphic for her (insane in my opinion but i am European so maybe different standards) the whole conversation felt very surreal to me
I believe her explanation is that no matter what is done it will be abusive against the woman. The moment she said she worked on "violence against women" and domestic abuse, it was expected that her whole narrative is that men are scumbags and poor little women are always abused, never abusive, and it totally feels like she went there right away.
Every time I start a business, someone tries to steal from the cash register. Because thievery exists, we can not have business.
This is basically her argument. Sometimes bad things happen when trying good things, so we should never try to make something as good as possible.
Rad fems cant explain it because it will always be arguement from jonatan heidth 3-5 metrics of moral foundation theory that secular leftist cant justify,
And start using them will force her being hypocrite / some classic liberal - tradinalist hybrid and she cant have that
Almost half an hour and they didn't even get past the first real question, this might be a new record
I can’t stand when people are incapable of actually engaging with the conversation. They just repeat their views and can’t handle it when they view gets challenged.
Destiny dragged this out at the start though and he doesn’t do very well at engaging with his guests, which would help him better defeat their views.. but i’m seeing some real arrogance in him recently and its kind of cringe 🤔
But yeah i agree, anybody who tries to frame their responses to keep themselves looking in control and refusing to acknowledge the point being suggested, is massively annoying.
@@phantasticmrphasma9874 where is this coming from? Destiny is an expert at engaging with his opponents. He almost always steelmans the other person’s position and he can even restate what he thinks the other person’s position is with much higher level of accuracy than anyone else on this platform.
@@blablabla7796 i know but sometimes he frustrates me in the way he speaks over people and cuts them off. It was only in the beginning and it affected the flow of the conversation. After that though his interruptions were well timed and relevant, if anything he let her speak too much at times. Don’t get me wrong, im seeing this video because i like him. Theres just times where his EQ could be better and that would create a better conversation, allowing him to make her look even more wrong in the long run
@PhantasticMrPhasma fair enough. I don't really see that. Not sure how he could have approached this convo differently without letting her ramble the same things over and over or treating her with insane kid gloves.
Her: "You keep interrupting me"
Also her, can't let a question be finished before interrupting and talking over Destiny
Almost every solo debater on his channel tbh. Every one of them just try to steamroll since if they let him talk they would realize there are errors with their argumentation and couldn’t last. They just have to gamble that he’ll go along with a string of “change of subjects” and that they’ll be able to shout out a couple one liners that the audience would like to hear. More often than not it does not go their way.
This is because even if destiny isn’t a super genius, he at least has valid reasons for his argumentation and can think on the fly. Most people just have a couple key decisions they make and they hold onto those opinions for the rest of their lives. Only an intelligent person can analyze information as it comes in and rationally respond or alter their positions on certain topics. Only “the weak” can change their opinion, since the majority can’t they view those who are able to recognize their faults as those who are openly weak. It’s a problem with the masses, the 80% of the population below 110 IQ. They’re too conditioned to being comfortable with themselves and their ideas. They never want to strive for anything more than material possessions, the idea of gaining knowledge for its own sake is repugnant and a waste of time, since they think they already know everything.
Holy shit this peabrain
"I don't like women being forced"
"What if they're not forced?"
"I don't like women being forced"
Imagine spending 10 years of your life fighting against something, then when you sit down and critically think about why you are opposed to it you realize it's because you just don't like it and don't have a logical reason why. This video should be renamed feelings vs critical thinking.
I disagree and I'm surprised Destiny couldn't empathize more with the vague notion that sex is somehow a special case when it comes to exploitation. He just spent days talking to girls who said they'd rather get murdered then r*ped. I was more pissed that she laughed at the idea that men could be exploited by women for sex. I've definitely been used physically and got my feelings hurt for it, plus gigolos exist and there are even areas of the globe known to be popular among female sex tourists.
@@danielstockley5631 The problem is this is your moral standpoint, you can't point to why it's bad other than it feels bad. Everyone would agree that exploitation of any kind is bad, so all Destiny wanted is some points of hers why sex is special. Answering with "because it's sex" isn't good enough.
@@Dauthi6 He should have examined that further but it took such a long time just to get to that, she was already done by that point. He was curious about why women would rather die than be violated sexually last week. Woulda been nice if he approached this conversation the same way he does with his female friends/associates, and not just another debate to win by Socratic method.
BUT WHAT ABOJT PENITRATION
@@danielstockley5631 I don't think Destiny would disagree with the notion that sex has the potential to be traumatic, abusive, coercive, etc.; but she was trying to claim that it inherently becomes all of these things once money is involved, and that's just absurd.
13 minutes deep, so far all that seems to have been accomplished is that this lady has put all her goalposts on wheels
Ain't gotta pay full property taxes for the goal posts if they're on wheels.
+1 great joke.
Lol I gotta use that one 😂😂😂
That and establishing Destiny is an obvious expert on the subject matter of exploitive sex work practices due to him knowing the largest creator on OnlyFans
Midway through the conversation she realised Destiny was living up to the reputation of being the brilliant debater that she had researched about (not before agreeing to the debate, but prior to coming for the debate). After that all she wanted to do was find ways of avoiding the L.
Starts the conversation with "I'm open to anything, I'll talk about anything I can talk about" but runs away saying "I don't want to talk about this the way you want to talk about it". Those two things should be shown one after the other.
He wasn't making sense tho.
@@claff4573 why is that?
You're being dense.
She wanted to ramble, and Destiny wanted her to go down a very specific dialogue path.
She wanted to talk, but Destiny kept stopping her (which I get why, but that's literally what happened)
Destiny was the one being rigid, she didn't run away because the topic made her uncomfortable, she ran away because he wouldn't let her talk as much as she wanted
@@codyb.3015nor should he let her ramble. Gets nothing done
@@codyb.3015 well she wasn’t really answering the specific question he was asking , ( she kept circuling) like the one regarding male prostitution, she just laughed ! Whereas it’s a serious issue as well especially in lgbtq+ communities, she cackled and said “ what kind of woman would pay a man for s ? “ … as if male escorts/ gigolos don’t exist …
“No potential for trauma in retail”…. Tell me you have never had a normal job without telling me you have ever worked a normal job.
The disappointing part is that there ARE a ton of critiques you can have and bring up about sex work, porn, prostitution, the industries of each, etc and a lot of them are valid and/or interesting questions, but if you think these are all the same thing then you can’t have a meaningful convo about a single one of them.
she was dumb for saying they were the same, but i honestly think she was trying to make the point that most criticisms that can be applied to one, can be applied to most if not all of them
The SWERFs are fundamentally against pornography, they just use the shady brothel exploitation angle as a motte-and-bailey
Destiny comparing twitter feet pics vs child trafficking as an illustration of the difference between porn and prostitution was one of the most bad faith arguments I have ever seen him make.
@@brittanymiller568 I don’t think that’s bad faith, i just think he’s trying to pick the most extreme examples to portray the argument that there are differences in these industries, something which this women was kinda reluctant to accept for some reason
Yes, frustrating as I completely agree with the Nordic model she advocates, but her need to broaden everything to denounce without nuance or potential grey areas made it impossible to engage with her .
Basically she failed to even get the low hanging fruit because she immediately insisted on the whole damn tree.
Near the start of this video she says “I’m happy to talk about nearly anything to be honest”. She then proceeds to not talk about anything for the next 35 minutes. Exceptionally well done.
I knew she was gonna contradict herself the moment she said that. Oof
That’s all women. “Let’s a have a civil conversation” … 30 seconds later starts screaming and calling you expletives 😂
She's intolerable. I've dated women like this and there's no chance she will admit when she's wrong or dishonest
Same, albeit not this bad
I agree that this type of insistence on being right is bad. I disagree that she's a particularly bad case, and I'd argue Destiny is asking for it here. Perhaps because he hasn't been talking with many people like this in a long time. It doesn't matter whether he's right that (especially entrepreneurial online) sex work isn't solely dominated by the type of stuff you see in industrial porn. Her point is that the stuff exists, and that's problematic enough. Move on.
He messed up this debate by insisting on being right instead of just interpreting her meaning charitably, and I think it's a pity, because it's one of the few subject matters where I disagree with his opinions.
Here's the real argument someone needs to have with Destiny:
Yes, sex might mean "a paychceck" or "a fun casual encounter" for some people, and be something more profound to others, and it's totally okay to let the first type of person live out that set of values. But the problem is that the discourse doesn't sufficiently address the fact that people who do not find those values in themselves shouldn't engage with sex work in the same way. That's the problem with the twitter/tumblr type of aggressively normalising everything. The impact of personal identity get lost. Everyone's so obsessed with ensuring that everyone has to accept everything, and the part where you have to listen to your instincts to tell you when something isn't the right thing for you doesn't get enough attention anymore, because society is so loud in telling you all the other people's values you have to accept (in them), and that's all that gets talked about.
Both men and women, both socially inept and socially mature people, struggle with saying "this thing that 99% of society rejected 100 years ago is a totally normal way to make money now." but on the other hand also having a reliable answer ready as to why a *particular* girl *shouldn't* start selling pictures of her pussy the moment she turns 18. Such as because physical relationships and discovering her sexuality with like-minded people she can connect might with mean too much to her, and her self-image would take a nose-dive if she'd start collecting money from people who objectify her.
Yes, sex work shouldn't be forbidden or considered inethical. But you have to keep acknowledging the reasons why one should be wary of it, and that's just not something that happens when everyone's busy shouting: "You shouldn't vilify it - *if they want to do it,* they should be able to" - while in reality most people *don't know what they want* from the start.
This mode of discussion is setting people up to pit their desire for a passionate, emotionally fulfilling selx life against their image of the world that normalises selling sex to loser virgins for a paycheck. Allowing that is one thing. Campaigning for it is bound to set up people with conflicting ideas of a successful life and their role in society.
Nah she is just stupid destiny used strawmen at 7-7.25 minute mark.Stoped watching after that.
@@TheHadMatters that's what they could have gotten to if he took a step back around the 20 minute mark. All work places have a potential for trauma. But the adult film industry may have a higher chance or a different trauma entirely. And *even if* that trauma doesn't come from sex itself or the normal arguments of coming from a broken household, then I would have liked to hear about that. She almost went into drug addiction angle, but was stopped. Could that be just another anti porn talking point? Or is there some vital information to be gathered from the types of people that are more likely to enter the industry? After seeing videos of AVN Expos, I'd like to think there's potential truth in this. Maybe even as a whole and not just the industry. People can get traumatized for life for chasing their dream of being a football player or chasing the bag in the adult film industry. It would have been great to hear the similarities or differences, but we'll never get there if this is how Stephen reacts to people with her view.
But I don’t think Megan realizes that some of the bigger porn companies, are owned by women nowadays
Imagine not only having to organize your thoughts, but to organize the other person's thoughts and the conversation never start.
Imagine having time to write a comment and then it not make sense.
@pyeriotsquad
makes perfect sense to me.
"sex work is bad because of the penetration" "what if there is no penetration?" "its still bad" "why?" "because of the penetration, gotta go cya"
This is how I aspire to live my life
In human s work is bad, because women are more likely to be in danger than behind a screen and it's really not beneficial compared to the risk factor. It literally makes sense.
@@claff4573 stop coping. She is also against men having sex with men since there is penetration. She also doesn't care about the safety as when asked a hypothetical about whether or not it would be okay in a world where it was extremely secured and pressure was removed she just ran realizing her no logic cannot succeed under scrutiny.
I really wish Destiny was more into the anime business...he could have some really fun conversations here. Do you think women doing VA for hentai is exploitative? Is hentai not pornographic? Who's getting hurt there and would you consider this industry "sex business"? I think her dialogue tree doesn't work well once you substitute the real life vulnerable penetrated women with animations or 3d generated models...
@@trololkhil9868 my guess would be that then they'd go down the "men consuming porn, even hentai, makes men rape real women" dialogue tree
Totally agree. She's too identified with her positions and refuses the possibility of being wrong. She didn't actually want to engage in a conversation, she just wanted to tell you what her talking points were. In her mind, she already knows she's right, and no one can tell her otherwise. This is the definition of close-mindedness.
Maybe she just identified as correct and waited for her affirmation 🤷♂️
Yup that is it, at no point did she want to hear Destiny's thoughts, it's like she expected to be interviewed and tell everyone her opinions on everything.
I wonder what Digibro would have to say about it!
@@randalthor2859😂😂😂
you people are literal rot
9:12 When Destiny realized this was a pointless convo, I lost it hahaha 🤣"I think I made a mistake guys"
Like every convo with Khalisah Bint Sinan al-Jilani
"kill me kill me kill me kill me"
I should go
“Kill me kill me kill me”
hahaha I missed that
I walked in sympathetic to Murphy's perspective and with a great deal of skepticism towards Destiny... and my assessment flipped: Destiny does a decent job by merely trying to coax an intelligible idea out of Murphy, who appears not to have read beyond Dworkin-MacKinnon, and moreover sticks to her doctrines with pride.
Dworkin was batshit insane. Great writer though
1. "Paying someone to have sex with you when she wouldn't do otherwise"
2. "Paying someone to cook a burger for you when she wouldn't do otherwise"
The 2 situations have in common the concept of paying someone for a job that they otherwise wouldn't do for free. The 2 situations are clearly not identical in details and form, BUT THEY ARE IDENTICAL IN CONCEPT.
The girl is simply too stupid or too disingenuous to realize or admit that. It's literally a waste of time debating her.
It's just not comparable at all and nobody thinks it's comparable either. If your boss at McDonald's told you when you got into work that it's now part of your job description to engage in se**al behavior, you wouldn't suddenly accept this just because that kind of behavior can technically go under the rubric of "work".
They arnt really identical in concept though. They are only identical in form. Conceptually and contextually they are radically different sentences.
The obvious answer is sex is an intimate/vulnerable experience that has a lot of unique but potentially severe consequences associated with it while serving a burger to someone doesn't.
Guess she was too triggered to articulate that, but most ppl these days forget that sex is still a pretty big deal even if hookup culture is dominant.
@@goddessrick8734nothing you said makes it coercion though, and that’s the entire point
@@fietspompje259 They are virtually identical in concept aka:
Paying someone for a job that they wouldn't do for free.
This is the concept and it's the same for both jobs. Exercise some reading comprehension pls
The issue with the way most people argue is that if you put up resistance to their point the lower parts of the brain immediately jump the conclusion that you think the opposite is true, and that if you disagree then you're a bad person. Thus, you constantly have to reaffirm their point of view over and over, every time before you start your point. That's the only way to get through the ooga booga human instincts.
I agree it's the exact same phenomenon that destiny has talked about before where people will deny an obvious premise because they are afraid of getting blindsided
@@stark1ll Yea like in this vid when she couldn't say there was a difference between an adult willingly selling feet pics on OF and 9yos in the middle east being sex trafficked.
Bullshit
I think another issue is that people are always trying to predict where you are leading the conversation, so instead of answering question 1, they try to answer what they think questions 2-5 are going to be.
As a human myself, I take issue with that!
We're not _all_ American.
When Destiny had to ask, "Why are we comparing rape to coffee?" I lost it
umm . . . Destiny was the one that made the comparison.
@@travispelletier3352 she certanly tried to phrase it that way lol. he was asking what´s different to get her to clarify so he can actually engage in this conversation. (not to mention destiny never brought rape into this)
@@gaat_chris4960 She didn't try to phrase it that way at all. Destiny was the one that was comparing sex work to any other kind of service. Like selling shoes. They are obviously very different.
@@user-em1pi4sl2b obviously but even you failed to mention rape which she brought into this. he was comparing them so she can tell him why she singles out selling sex, which she just didnt do
@@gaat_chris4960 she did, she said the act of sex is what makes it different…and obviously she’s going to bring rape into it because she think all sex work is inherently exploitative
I was a male prostitute I had a lot of (married) female customers I was a prostitute for 3 years
Yeah it’s kind of illogical of her to assume women don’t pay for sex. Women watch porn and pay for male strippers so why wouldn’t they pay for sex? I’m sure it’s way less common but still dumb to disregard entirely
The fundamental issue of her halfway argument that "women in porn are all doing it unwillingly, whether they know it or not" is that she assumes that anyone who doesn't make the choices she makes, is incapable of making their own decisions.
It’s actually very typical of hectoring feminists, that they refuse agency to other women
That's also one of these disingenuous arguments of these SWERFs that irritates me. Women agreeing on doing sex work will, at some point, discover they didn't want it. How can you ever have an honest conversation on such a statement?
Most sex workers really like what they do (at least that's my personal experience).
How is porn positive and not exploitative in society
@@Max4Z easy, it allows outlets for sexual expression and satisfaction in a convenient medium. It allows avenues for people to make money through that expression in a safer manner than it would in black marker prostitution. Lastly, it is an expression of the right to freedom of choice and sexual expression itself.
Does harm happen within it or from it? I'm sure it does. This is life. Sports leads to sports betting, food leads to obesity, water can kill you. If you have a human, they will hurt themselves with anything.
@orkhiss9974 you need sports betting to survive? You need sports at all to survive? You need recreation to survive?
All of these things are false
She straight up refuses to accept that there are women out there who do sex work by choice. They're all coerced or forced into it, therefore it's all bad and should all be banned.
She's incapable of having a nuanced conversation. Waste of time.
none do it out of pure choice, this is just true. some women definitely “choose” to do it, but it’s because they’re emotionally or mentally stunted 10/10 times
@@DavidJones-ot8qu So you are saying any woman that does any sexual content is not doing it out of their own choice ever?
You are essentially saying no woman can have a choice over her own body or decisions when doing any sexual content. You are denying women autonomy by doing this. I really hope you are a big andrew tate fan or anti-feminist in some way because they will 100% love that opinion. Women can't make their own choices so we should make them for them after all right?
@@DavidJones-ot8qu Honestly, any open-mindedness or receptiveness that I have to charging my mind on sex work immediately gets deflated when sex-negative "feminists" start to talk in ways like this that sound disturbingly like puritanical, misogynistic tradcons who believe sex is something women can never want, enjoy, and/or have any agency in, and anything evidencing the contrary is because those women "have something wrong with them."
@@DavidJones-ot8qu sources: trust me bro
The easy response to this is that the women who are in a position to choose and have a good experience in sex work are a privileged outlier rather than the norm. Murphy can't do this because she's too dug in to the position that sex work is bad, full stop. It's not a good sign when someone has too much cognitive dissonance to even begin to defend their worldview.
I've noticed when people talk about why things are objectively bad or good, they'll start gish galloping out words that have so much weight and need to be unpacked like: "exploitative" "coercive" "Dehumanizing". Ultimately, they know their opinion is subjective, but they want it to sound objective. So they throw out these words to cocoon their position and make it feel safe from criticism because they know they're laying down so many speed bumps for the person they're arguing with to run out the clock. Destiny cut through them fast = Rage quit
I remember when I was younger my moral intuition (and even my opinions on like cartoons lol) felt universal and I'd be mad when people didn't havethe same views. i think it's easy to be very morally protecting
And the thing is no one is saying that sex work can’t be coercive, exploitative, dangerous, etc.
It’s binary thinking.
all of those things actually apply here though. it is coercive because, as destiny pointed out, work is coercive. we tolerate coercion in some behaviors, but we do not tolerate this with sex, which is why we have the crime of “rape” but we don’t have the crime of “forced dished duty victim.” it is also dehumanizing. women in porn are never treated as individuals to be given a sexual experience, they’re simply vaginas to fuck (anecdotal, but i have only seen a handful of porns where a woman actually cums). all of those labels apply and are explicable when it comes to porn
@@DavidJones-ot8qu forced dished duty was outlawed by the 13th amendment unless you’re a prisoner.
@@SmartDave60 wrong, it isn’t slave labor, it would be akin to garnishing an employees wages, which is also illegal, but since there is no employee agreement, it would just be super sketchy and you’d basically have to just request/ demand then hope they comply, but it could still happen this way. it could turn into kidnapping or a lawsuit quickly if it goes wrong, but regardless, most laws protecting against it have nothing to do with the act, but the conditions of employment
She goes from “I’m open to anything, open to talking about anything” to “I don’t want to do this anymore” lol
Her basic claim is that sex is special for whatever reason. It is "sacred". She was unwilling to say it for some reason, but it feels like that is her position.
She didn’t say sacred but she pretty clearly said what you thought she did
@@diamondbracelette Totally. It's like a tautology. Sex is special because obviously it is. She doesn't give a logical argument. I'd be curious to know what experiences in her life led her to have this "ultra special" perception of sex.
You lefty’s are sad.
one of her points was society ALREADY understands that sex is a 'sacred' thing. Thats why she brought up r*pe but destiny somehow spun it into her accusing him of not caring about it.
@@Hooberschmit1 I think it deserves explaining to anyone skeptical or otherwise legitimately in disagreement that sex is a unique interhuman experience. But I also think it merits acknowledging that it is an entirely unique form of intimacy for many many people
"It's wrong to pay someone for sex because they wouldn't do it with you if you weren't paying them."
"someone who cooks burgers for a living would probably rather not be doing that, but they do it because you pay them. Is that wrong?"
"there's a huge difference between sex work and cooking burgers"
"what's the difference?"
"the person selling sex wouldn't do it unless you were paying them."
Brilliant!
i’m making a total assumption here that u disagree with her premise (i know the argument is bad, but i agree with her premise).
would u feel the same way about someone being emotionally coerced into stocking shelves as u would someone being emotionally coerced into sex ?
@@DavidJones-ot8qu How the hell can you be "coerced" into stocking shelves. that is fully your choice as you'll do it for money no threat or exploitation involved
@@DavidJones-ot8qu But how are we doing to define emotional coercion?
Is that one person trying to persuade someone to do a job or the emotional pull we feel because it's generally more advantageous for us to do a job?
@@DavidJones-ot8qu
Why does it always seem like some of you completely remove a person's autonomy from the situation as if a woman couldn't willingly choose to have sex for money and or put their nudes up for purchase with their own consent and or even have personal satisfaction from doing so?
Some of the women perhaps actually want to just fuck random people and make money from it.
Some might even like the idea of selling their nudes, etc.
Can we stop treating women like they're five year old's with no way to make their own decisions already.
@@DavidJones-ot8qu Coercion definition- the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.
I believe its fundamentally wrong. Whether its stocking shelves or sex work. But I dont believe all sex work or even most is coercive
She didn’t understand that her position was inconsistent and that he was just trying to find the root of the motivation for her belief so that an actual debate could even start. I wonder if she would have been able to engage if she didn’t assume that he was just unwilling to hear her out.
I think that's a huge issue, we engage in conversation with the presumption of being attacked and instead being at the defensive the whole time. It limits conversation and debate potential, it's exhausting to deal people like this.
Sure, talks like this can get heated, that's why we need to keep an open mind and be well informed of our position.
Hasn't she heard of domestic slavery? There are literally people who are being traffic to clean the house and do domestic chores and forced to do it without being able to leave you think that isn't traumatizing? going to a really stressful job where your boss is a tyrant or sexually harassing you or you have rude customers that's traumatizing. Any job can be traumatizing. It all depends on the environment and the circumstances in which you engage in your job that makes it positive or negative and that holds true for sex work as well.
Destiny should have used the example of a soldier selling his life
Definitely a better example, but something tells me the debate would've still gone the same way.
True, in her world we would never be able to recruit cause dying is abuse. 😂
It’s not valid because men’s lives aren’t worth shit
Ah yes clearly he just needed the right analogy
@@MuscleboundKage Not only dying. We literally pay people to kill other people AND we consider killing as immoral.
Just to let y’all know, I woke up at 5am today, did a bit of morning workout, took a nice hot shower, made a breakfast of champions, scrambled eggs, pancakes and sausage patties with a cup of joe and I’m enjoying this debate with my food.
This is a top tier Tuesday morning for me and I hope y’all have the same.
It’s Wednesday you troglodyte
@@PR-lf1qr you just ruined my day
@@osamabindiesel3389 I’m sorry for being mean. I hope you have a great day friend. Seriously.
@@PR-lf1qr it’s ok buddy, hope the same for you dggL
Tuesday? It is Wednesday, my friend
I am honestly amazed and almost scared at how many people I've now seen that go years and years vehemently believing something only for someone to pinpoint ask you the reason for your belief and they cannot answer, defend or even justify the reason
we all do it. you're blind if you think you don't
@@illsaveus I can explain all of my beliefs and how I got to that point, if you cant I would do some soul searching and maybe look into some other beliefs.
@@illsaveus I think its more of a question of scale, If I develop a website, create a brand, and become an internet personality all on a core belief I hold, and cannot defend or justify it. You are either a scammer or a moron. If you're talking about a belief an individual holds that maybe they have not given critical thought too and have carried with them in the back of their head, sure. Yea we all do it, but I would not advice trying to debate Destiny on it.
@@illsaveus If you want to be pedantic, sure, some go their whole lives hating olives for no reason other than they just feel like they don't like them. Not even the taste or consistency, they just don't like the idea. But that's not what he was referring to, obviously.
She represents a lot of the way people think. He immediately knows how many laps he's gonna have to run around her pov but mostly everything he said to her was pretty charitable, balancing his frustration of being too ahead of her and having to go her speed and maintain his position
I don't think this woman understands debate or logical thinking. Kind of sad to watch. I think there are probably a lot of genuinely interesting arguments against porn and/or sex work.
Of course logical thinking isn’t her cup of tea. She’s a woman
@destiny I’ll answer. As a conservative, Christian women. Here we go:
I think morally, we shouldn’t allow porn to be made or allowed. Porn makes a normal relationship/sex life super boring. No, I’m not going to see you change the paper in the copy machine and get on all fours. Just. No.
There is a huge difference between prostitution and pornography. I do agree with you destiny, it has changed so much in the last few years!
I do feel it’s a change or a progressive change - in a bad way- in our sexual freedoms, and the access to it has never been easier. Selling or buying.
Do I think it should be illegal for someone to make or do porn? No. No government should have any day in what I do with my body. If a women wants to do porn because it makes her more money than she would doing another job, and she’s alright with it, it’s her freedom to choose. - we could go down another path and talk about how it used to be something that no “decent” or morale” person would do and now it’s like everyone is doing it kind of things, but… another topic.
Do I feel that this opens doors to exploit women and children, absolutely. Do I feel that this is a very thin line that needs to be taken very seriously. The idea of a woman making porn and a man paying for it, is “okay” or there isn’t anything wrong with that, is not okay.
Should she legally be allowed? Yes.
But what are the consequences (in our societies, mentally and emotionally) of porn and young ladies getting the opportunity to expose their bodies on a permanent, infinite world of the web. Once those pictures and videos are up, they will be up forever.
#2. These young ladies, when they put their self esteem into their beauty and sexuality, then what happens when it’s gone?
#3. Men. They get an idea of these sexy young 18 year olds that get “hot” with the thought of nothing. Then when that doesn’t happen in the real world, they feel rejected. When sex with a normal women, isn’t this life shattering explosion, then sex with a real women isn’t what you wanted it to be and are disappointed.
I could go on… sorry this is is so rough, got my 3 teens and my 2 year old… I’m seriously going down a freaking rabbit hole with you destiny!! Love everything you have tonsayB
Thank goodness a christian with a brain...
Have you read Louis Perry’s book?
@@trobins4473 no I haven’t! I’ll have to look him up.
What do you think of this: Consent can be bought. Let's say I don't need a $10,000 coat, but I want it.
Then let's say someone asks me to have sex, but I decline. Then they say they'll pay me $10,000. At that point I can choose to say yes. That simple. No one is making me. I can decline and save up money for a year but I'm choosing to have a 1hr physical exchange with someone for money I want, but don't necessairly need.
If the person happens to be attractive to me (or at least attractice "enough"), I get a pleasurable experience AND get paid for it. Win/win. Result? We have consensual intercourse, and I walk away happy. That sums up how a lot of these adult film actors think.
(For the record, im not religious but I still think most of the porn industry is degenerate... I just think most people are virtue signaling when they discuss it)
BTW, as a Christian what are your thoughts on pornography that is loving, intimate, and passionate? Like work made by female directors who value true intimacy as opposed to degrading stuff. Just curious, since I think it should still be somewhat avoided b/c of the effect prn has on brain chemistry, dopamine regulation etc... but objectively it doesn't have the same negative sociocultural effects
I was pretty disappointed that Destiny held on for even 10 minutes, when after 10 seconds, we knew she was just a walking twitter talking point. Didn't think she'd self-eject though
There's nothing wrong with what she said, destiny was being very manipulative and agitated because of his perception that she's a feminist and you are too.
@@sucaadshardi9650 She literally says in the first 5 seconds that she runs a feminist website like are you simple? Just because she critiques aspects of it doesnt change that its her realm. It's not merely his perception if its something she identifies as & you must have brain worms if you think she's even remotely intelligent. We don't care that she's a feminist, we care that she denys any & all studies that contradict her views. That's called being ideologically (blindly) driven while not caring about the facts or the outcomes. Something that lines up with her being a feminist, which demonstrates how ideologically driven she is & that all her views stem from her beliefs with no regards for the facts of the matter. She only is the sum of her own confirmation bias, believing everything that agrees with her views while denying everything contradictory. I don't know how else to spell this out for you, she's not a curious mind.
& you only like her because of YOUR confirmation bias. Just a guess but you're religious are you not? Her views probably line up with your religion am I wrong?
@@ronswanson1410 I'm honestly baffled anyone could possibly defend this lady after the other debate we saw her in..
@@sucaadshardi9650 Nothing wrong with what she said? She literally said that taking a foot picture of your own free will is being part of the same thing as a kidnapped child that was trafficked. Like you can't actually be this dumb. You can hide behind the "yOu DoNt LiKe HeR cAuSe ShEs A fEmInIsT" cope all you want but we don't like her because of her dog s*** ludicrous arguments.
That's like if I said me & you are the same because we're both made of cells, she retreats to overly broad "connections" so she can try to tie everything to the worst thing possible. But anyone can say that, we're all human so we're all part of the worst aspects of everything from all of humanity. It's a pointless meaningless distinction, a desperate reach to hide behind terrible crimes pretending they apply to all of it.
It was content though, these kinds of debates need to happen more often
Her argument is that sex work is coercive and thereby creates exploitative but fails to adequately differentiate it from any other type of labor that one needs to perform to survive. She’s inherently biased against sex work but refuses to admit it.
She ran away in cognitive dissonance as soon as you asked about male prostitutes because then all her talking points were null/void.
Any time he got near that point she diverted. It was so annoying.
Destiny, you should have told her: “I’m autistic and I don’t understand normal human emotions. Why is sex different than cheeseburger?”
He must have bumped his head and forgot the last week where several women told him they'd rather get murdered than sexually assaulted.
That would've been been believable.
i can haz cheesburger?
Hahahaha 🤣 but I'm autistic and I understand...although to be fair i had a friend who chose to prostitute herself while her and her bf were drug users. She got out the other end of it with massive trauma. I didn't anticipate that outcome, but it's helped me understand how the sex industry works.
If your ideology can't account for other people not having the same emotional reactions as you, good luck getting anyone who isn't already on board with it to agree (and therefore, by extension, enacting any law you'd favour)
She didn't want to have a conversation, she just wanted to lay out her bullet points and call it a day.
I’ve agreed with Destiny on a lot of topics but I’m 15 minutes in and he’s being unneccesary rude. She’s calm and making sense and he’s all ”kill me, kill me” and talking over her
Lol the number of sips of water she started taking when she realized Destiny is for real. This will make her never want to mess with a proud woman of color again!
I think what's happening when someone seems incapable of really engaging deductively with a topic is either: 1. They have a very strong emotional attachment to their position that comes from their intuitions, and their "reasons" they give for believing that thing are just post hoc rationalizations. But in the heat of the moment, there's no way they can see that - they feel as if some core part of themselves is being attacked or dismissed. Or 2., they KNOW that their positions aren't derived from deduction, but propagating them is essential to their livelihoods. Aka they're grifters.
Excellent points. Expanding on #1, into a 1a as it were, some people have cognitive blocks from personal or ancestral trauma and it creates their dogmatic blindness, or they’re configured w real cognitive limitations. Maybe.
lmao
@@gozutheDJ what's so funny bud
There's nothing more frustrating than a person who constantly interrupts you, but attempt to constantly tell you to "stop interrupting". Some people have no internal timer and don't understand how much more they are talking than someone else.
This conversation style seems to be a thing that is completely foreign to my lived experience - I am surprised that anyone will tolerate such behaviour around them. It’s deeply toxic.
Why does feminist call Sex work as exploitation or trafficking, but never call plumbing, waste recycling or drainage work as coercive, exploitative or trafficking?
Because most if not all men rather do those jobs than getting a dick shoved up their ass or mouth. It's also a lot more nuanced than stating that hard labor is the same as women selling their bodies. Also, a lot of sex work is exploitation or trafficking, and men buying women to have sex with funds that industry.
*Men get actively trafficked into first world countries to work awful fruit picking jobs and gig work at threat of deportation* - I sleep
*Woman rubs herself on onlyfans for money* - REAL SHIT
Because nobody kidnaps people and force them into plumbing.
Her “career” is more important than any semblance of meaningful debate and the quest for truth
Excellent observation! You’re spot on
100%. Typical grifter.
But how is that not the truth?
Well, probably more likely that her career has circle jerked her into thinking that "everyone knows" her POV is correct. I really don't think she was intentionally trying to be bad faith, but that her ability to communicate has been stunted.
Why is it so hard to find feminists that aren't condescending idiots? I want to like that woman (and others like her) so badly, but I just die inside when they try to have conversations. It's like they don't actually know anything about what they claim to believe.
I'm working on this theory that the single worst kind of woman to meet is fairly attractive, with passionate beliefs. Sadly I have yet one more example.
I see your point a little bit. But this particular feminist is actually hated by almost every other feminist on earth. So megan is not someone who represents feminism, Or put it another way, she certainly doesn't represent most feminist because most feminist fucking hate her
I actually found Destiny to be the one who was being incredibly condescending. I don't have a position on either side, but he was being pretty rude.
@@user-em1pi4sl2b I would say that he definitely became condescending, but that was only after she shot down his multiple attempts to get her to expound upon her ideas.
Can't believe she said "adios" at the end because Destiny is latinx. Racism is still alive and well.
that was disgusting
HAHAH based Comment
The comparisons between menial labor and being paid for sex acts are so asinine.
People don’t get trafficked so that they can sell coffee, or exclusively give massages.
Of the many potential negative consequences of menial labor, typically, pregnancy, STDs, rape and torture aren’t among them.
It would have been better if Meghan could’ve pointed this out, but understandably, she was probably taken aback by someone who would speciously claim that the two kinds of labor are the same
I see the argument whooshed over your head as well. whining that the comparison isn't exactly the same is a losing debate strategy and she actually tried to point out exactly what you said, but it sounded so silly that even you missed it.
Don't use as a reason to not like sex work the fact someone is being paid to do something they otherwise would not do, as that is every job and you sound foolish.
Also there are tons of menial jobs way more dangerous than sex work and way more disgusting to people. No one is going down to work in the sewers and wade through your literal crap unless they are getting paid.
Labour trafficking (especially in growing coffee or chocolate) is way more prevalent than sex trafficking worldwide, and a lot of those involved do end up significantly injuring themselves
You won't find a single construction worker who doesn't have a story about horrific workplace accidents that happened either to themselves or someone they worked with. But yeah, there's no risk of trauma in non porn related jobs 🤦♂️
22:00 Yep she is literally ignoring every single thing Destiny says and just repeats the same phrase to the point Destiny have to baby sit her through the whole debate trying to get her to agree on a single point or at least stop repeating the same thing.
Does this person consider modelling immoral? Or Hollywood acting for that matter? Her entire point seems to be that there is exploitation in the porn industry and that certain celebrities have retroactively regret entering that business after the fact.
Both of these conditions happen ALL the time in modelling and acting, but I imagine she doesn’t consider it immoral to play Shrek or be in a shampoo ad
I think those people hold the idea that there is something so uniquely sacred and holy about intimite experiences and that you should only share them with people who are important to you. Seeing these things that THEY hold as very precious become a commodity makes them feel like society is degenerate. Holding sex in a position where it is not touched by money-value is for them purely a moral standpoint. I think everything about trafficking is actually irrelevant for them and they just use whatever comes across to justify their moral framework.
She actually might consider those immoral. And for sure if the society moved in a direction to ban porn, those would be next logical steps for her to fight against.
@@Wtb_skill How is this not sexist as fuck though? She would be advocating for women to completely remove themselves from pretty much any work and any job there is lol.
What are women supposed to do then? Just sit around and do nothing?
Fax. Sex workers should be getting paid just as much as models as well as Hollywood actors. They should be granted medical insurance as well.
@@Wtb_skill Fact. Many Radfems include mundane advertisements, movies, music, books, and art in their definitions of “pornography”. Many are against all simulated sex scenes in movies.
I am a REAL sex worker of 10 years. This women is insulting and wants to paint women as victims when they are not.
I wonder if she felt traumatized after voluntarily leaving the conversation 🤔😅
Simple : she cannot admit that the industry has changed nowdays. Because doing so would destroy the whole purpose of her existence online, her grift.
So she can just repeat the same points over and over again... pretending to not see the good changes that happened to the pr0n industry nowdays.
What has changed? It has evolved because other websites and ways to make money have come into the picture, that's what's changed.
Bruh what? Look at Europe and countries like D.R. and tell me if things have really changed.
The Industry is still pretty disgusting n many cases, and Meghan is still a scumbag grifter fueled mainly by misandry even if she sometimes has a point
I'm so curious how people will get upset with people for not understanding their point of view when any time they're asked to expound, they turtle up or get hyper defensive. That and the fact that people will expect you to listen to what they're saying without doing the same themselves
People want to be heard, they also want to be right. Logic is irrelevant, emotions are.
I think she just wanted to lecture without question.
Oh no, she's hit the wall where post-hoc rationalizing doesn't work anymore because she's actually discussing the topic with someone who knows what they're talking about.
"Why is paying for sex bad?"
"Because paying for someone to do anything they don't want is bad."
"So work, paying for someone to do anything they don't want, is bad?"
"That's not what I'm saying, it's different."
Then say something different. Her actual reason is "It feels icky because sex is intimate and that should be held on a higher level than a normal job", but for some reason she's trying to broaden it from "intimate" to "thing you wouldn't do if you weren't paid".
This was hard to watch. She was absolutely crystal clear on her points. I’m not sure I agree with them but they were crystal clear. She’s anti-paying someone for sex. She stated that multiple times. Anytime destiny tried to paint her into a corner on her position she was very clear. She believes sex is inherently different than making a cheeseburger. Sex is what changes the dynamic. She wants the industry to change in order for it to be less exploitative. When destiny says, “well, all jobs are inherently exploitative” that’s a non starter. Some jobs are more exploitative than others. We all know this. We’ve all had jobs. She believes that selling sex is immoral because of the societal effects and the importance sex has in our society. That’s the conversation. She told destiny multiple times through his tired analogies that selling sex is immoral and then destiny still acts like he doesn’t understand. He kept trying to trick her into saying that selling sex was moral in some situations but she was not going to do that. Destiny didn’t want to engage with her argument. Destiny did this a fair amount in the Dillahunty debate on abortion as well. He becomes so stuck on trying to defeat a position through analogy and hypotheticals instead of actually arguing a position. It might have been an interesting conversation if we actually heard Destiny’s position.
THERE WAS NO ARGUMENT ON HER END! It was a sermon. And since this was supposed to be a conversation, where ideas are bounced back AND forth there is no way you and your idealogue brethren/sisters just stated that destiny used "tired analogies". This is why talking to fanatics must be done in small doses, or one runs the risk of brainrot.
Yes, thank you. She's always been clear on her stances.
@@0_oblivion_02 yikes dude. Relax. I don’t even agree with her. I’m sure there are some situations, or even many situations where selling sex is perfectly fine. I was just saying that Destiny was unwilling to engage with HER argument that it was immoral. Also his analogies/hypotheticals were “tired”. “What if we could get rid of all the exploitation, violence, trafficking, etc, would selling sex be ok then?” She already told him no. He didn’t want to engage with her argument, he wanted to change her argument. His view on jobs is bonkers too. “Doing something you wouldn’t normally do for money is all jobs”. No it isn’t. Those are what we call bad jobs. Those are jobs we try to avoid because we know they are exploitative. The goal is to get a good job where you get paid to do the thing you want to do or are good at.
She can't explain why selling sex is more "immoral" than the selling of other goods and services, beyond "society says so" (which, well, we can run down the list of everything society has declared immoral at some point). Destiny was trying to explain to her the concept that maybe not everyone she's trying to rescue is actually being forced or held against their will, which, seeing as she's making an absolute claim, she should at least be able to account for
I went in to this as level-headed as I could, but when she kept performing a lecture, ignoring the other person in the room, and then claiming that D-man was cutting her off, I broke.
I appreciate you summarizing this for me
no you didnt
@@gozutheDJfound the simp
Calls you "so dramatic" then ends the call on the most minor of disagreements
I 1st discovered Destiny like a month ago... Seeing him debate against the other 2 guys on fresh and fit was when I realized how smart of good at debating he is... Now Im realizing he isnt really biased on any side which makes me really respect his opinions
Meghan is right. Destiny cutting her off repeatedly super annoying. Good she left. Allow your guest to at least make their point completely, instead of just focusing on winning the 'debate'
This was over the second she was unable to engage in the hypothetical.
It's the worst when you run into these sort of conversations irl, because you don't have it recorded so you could go see it post and confirm: "yes, they were being that crazy and I didn't do anything wrong."
In the moment my brain can often be going overdrive just to try and pinpoint what the other person is even saying AND trying to respond and steer the conversation to a productive one, so remembering everything without the fear of being biased can be difficult.
It seems to me that Destiny should do less typing while he's debating someone and do his research prior to debating. The fact that he even attempted to analogize selling shoes to working in porn is utterly ridiculous and shows how little effort he put into having a real discussion.
You're really into porn, dude... we get it.
For debate's sake, I understand why some people want to logically want to examine the difference and talk it through, but if someone is genuinely asking what the difference between being forced to sell shoes and being forced to have sex in prostitution), they need psychological help but maybe there is none for the. Just what do you say to someone like that? They have a huge empathy deficit and do not understand human beings.Meghan is not perfect in debates, but he came across really angry and dismissive. Maybe he would engage with people better if he stopped typing and actually looked at them in the face.
@@RedArtistx when he types he is making note of there arguments
@@RedArtistx stop being a overdramatic baby everyone knows the point of the analogy was to find HER perspective on why she thinks it is bad.
If she had said yes destiny would understand her position was more of a socialist idea that “all labor is bad” rather then just sex work.
@Arti-x you completely added the word "forced" when his entire point was an exchange between consenting adults.
Disingenuous.
Seems like a funny way for you to say you couldn't actually explain the difference between sexual and non-sexual labour beyond "it's icky"
I love at the end she said Destiny keeps interrupting her but she interrupted him almost every time he spoke.
That woman made me lose brain cells and I think that's extremely unethical.
She made me lose brains cells even when I thought I didn't have any left.
Unconsentual braincell loss
Which points?
You could have told her : What about someone going to war for money, or working in the sewers ...
Working on an oil rig. Selling your body to science. Heck a rodeo clown or someone that transports volatile chemicals.
None of those involve sacred intimacy or seduction so they don’t count, apparently
@@_SeaH0rse i wonder if she thinks medical jobs like gynaecologists are unethical, since they touch/penetrate intimate sexual areas
Sewer worker here. Can confirm without money I wouldn't do this
@@skepticinall What!? You aren’t doing it for the love of the game? That’s exploitative!
The core of it is that she doesn't believe sex should be bought or sold. It's not about vulnerability or getting paid to do shit that you otherwise wouldn't do but for the cash. There's something about the intimacy and meaning behind sex that she doesn't think should be commercial.
I think the reason why she refused to commit to that conclusion is because she didn't know how to answer the obvious follow up: why should your belief be controlling on others? If a woman *wants* to and consents to be paid for appearing in a porn shoot, why should you be able to stop her?
I don't think she was prepared to square with that question, hence the tangents and deflection.
"You go ahead, I mean I'm happy to talk about anything to be honest." - 2:53
"You wanna frame the conversation in a way that I'm not interested in framing the conversation." - 25:52
Nice excuse
Listening back to the 25:52 mark.... She's literally telling on herself and admitting how she feels while trying to imply Steven is the one who holds those feelings.
@@hiz24airness Gets emotional and then gaslights the other person for being emotional. Sounds about right.
Destiny got super triggered, and this seems to happen as of late with the SA topic.
It's been happening more often since he started playing SC 2 again. He's gone on banning spree a few times in chat after a really bad defeat.
would be hard not to be triggered at what she said
25:07 Destiny: "What about men who sell their bodies to women?"
Guest: "WHAT?? LOL thats real common eh, LOLOL ...."
What a generic non-answer-answer. She did all of us a favor by leaving.
as a feminist myself this woman gave me secondhand embarassment. How disconnected can someone be when it comes to sex work? People like her make it WORSE for everyone, especially women in the sex/porn industry.
This viewpoint isnt uncommon for some feminists, read Andrea Dworkin's work for example. Saying "as a feminist" on the issue on sex work doesn't narrow it down in the slightest. More thinkers on the subject, though Dworkin is probably the best introduction to Anti-pornography feminism: Catharine MacKinnon, Robin Morgan, Diana Russell, Alice Schwarzer, and Gail Dines
i want destiny to bring up sports. partaking in sports for money often puts your body in risk and you can experience injuries, trauama, CTE, etc. its so much more comparable than a "coffee"
I was also thinking construction jobs and other dangerous professions as well. I mean hell you could even say military or police officers in some way as well i'm sure.
she just refuses to even try to understand what he's saying, and willingly puts up blind spots
I agree with Destiny but he comes off really aggressive right out the gate and comes off very patronising. I agree 100% with his stance but I can see why she got annoyed. Don't entertain the conversation and then behave like that when someone with a radical view expresses radical positions. You can't cut someone off and then justify it by saying you already knew where the sentence was going. Even if you're right (and Destiny is like 95% of the time), it's going to annoy your opponent.
It only appears to be "aggressive" because our culture is so rooted in politeness and ass kissing that having a direct and honest conversation about facts is seen as threatening. The cultural standard is that liars should be permitted their delusions and that exposing dishonesty is impolite. I reject this standard.
He didn't cut her off because he knew what she was saying. He cut her off because she was changing the subject and refusing to answer direct questions.
That's a good point. Perhaps some pre-existing context is why Destiny did this?
He watched Aella debate this woman, and as I recall it was a total train wreck. Meghan mostly just talked forever, never actually engaging with Aella. Aella started to get increasingly frustrated and saying things the Meghan HAD to respond to, to no avail.
32:49 is where Destiny breaks it down. If he sits quietly without interrupting, she'll talk endlessly laying out point after point, without ever getting to the heart of their disagreement.
I'm actually not sure how you handle people like this. Constantly call attention to the fact they're not engaging with you or your questions?
The fact that she keeps interrupting him then says the he is the one interrupting her is wild
I think Destiny is a bit naive when he says that "people within the sex industry aren't a fan of pushing people into things they don't want to do". I'd agree that the women in the sex industry aren't fans of that, my guess is that a lot of the men absolutely aren't consciously "fans of it", but they don't care or think it's a big deal, so long as it makes them money and specific type of content that gets views. I feel maybe Destiny doesn't fully realise how these men wouldnt' even see these women as human beings, not consciously, but they don't treat them with the respect or freedom of choice that a person deserves. I'm a bit surprised by this, cause he's talked to the redpill dudebros who have nothing to do with the sex industry, and he has heard how they speak about women. Why wouldn't a lot of the men in porn have similar or much worse, even more dehumanizing views of women?
Boundaries get broken a lot within the porn industry, many women in porn have clearly stated their boundaries before the filming, and then found themselves in that same shoot being forced, coerced, pressured into things they specifically opted out of. I don't know if men pick up on it like a woman would, but I've definitely seen porn where the woman is fine in one scene, and then suddenly screaming in pain rather than pleasure, and the guy who's ramming her doesn't even pick up on it. Like I've seen scenes where she'll cautiously try to make him stop or slow down, and he either doesn't want to cause he doesn't care, or he doesn't even notice, because she's being too cautious cause she seemingly doesn't want to ruin the scene or cause trouble. That's bad. In a job like that, she should always feel like she's allowed to end or pause the scene, no matter what the reason. Sex is something you should always be able to stop, whether you're doing it for pleasure or business. Always. What's the environment in these places that women don't feel empowered to pause a single SCENE?
I get the idea that "none of us want to work, we all kinda just do stuff cause wer'e forced to/told by someone else, and they pay us money", but it also seems a bit... willfully infantile to compare the two. Like, if you work in an office with a sexist culture, where a man asks you to make coffee for him cause you're a woman, you'll be annoyed by it, insulted, you might think about it a lot afterwards, but you likely won't be deeply, subconsciously traumatized. If you work in an office and a man grabs your ass or sexually harasses you, you're more likely to be traumatized than just consciously upset, than if the unwanted task/action has absolutely nothing to do with your bodily autonomy, intimacy, privacy, sexuality and so on. We can act like sex is just like anything else, but I think it's more realistic to see it as something that's intrinsically connected to us as a person, and something that will more easily violate and damage us deeply if those boundaries are broken, vs smth unrelated to sex.
Now imagine your whole job is first willfully making yourself quite vulnerable, which sex is, and then someone pushes that boundary, violets your agreed rules, coerces and pressures you. A job where often the culture assumes that the finished product matters more than the worker's agreed boundaries.
Not all men in porn are abusive, of course not, but you have to think about what kind of a dude would get into that industry to begin with, and what they want from it. I absolutely think that if this was a society where we could somehow assure that women weren't being exploited and coerced and so forth for doing sex work/porn, then it'd be completely fine that that business existed. But it's hard to see that ever being the reality, since abusing women in various ways is so pervasive within the porn/sex work industry.
Sorry about the rant. Just offering some different perspectives, and I'm sure some people will get angry at this and call it anecdotal and so forth, but I really wish someone will agree and read it with empathy, and agree that porn and other sex industries need a lot of improving before they're safe for women to be in. I won't read replies because this topic is honestly too upsetting, and sadly a lot of the time men's viewpoints on it seem to be somewhere in another galaxy when compared to those of women.
Anyone else completely distracted by Destiny multitasking. The keyboard noises are insufferable.
Yes!! Driving me nuts. It’s disrespectul for the other person as well, whoever they are.
I am totally on her side. Instead of allowing her to talk and then agreeing to disagree, Destiny just kept talking over her and not allowing her to state her position. Her point was that having sex is very different from being hired to do a job like working at Starbucks. Destiny refused to acknowledge this point. What an asshole!
Except that he was trying to find out why she thinks that. She said it was traumatic, but so are lots of jobs. Armed service, healthcare, even customer service to some extent. Obviously destiny knows they are different types or scales of trauma, but he wants to know if their disagreement is on the principle of sex being a unique trauma or if it's about sex work having unique incentives/consequences, which if somehow avoidable, would make it ok.
To use the armed service analogy. Do you think recruiting young men is wrong because as a society we shouldn't be training people to kill and using them to enforce our will on other countries, or because they are young, vulnerable and therefore especially unable to give consent to the inevitable trauma they will get from combat.
Do you see how those are two different principles? Destiny was trying to figure out what hers were.
@@rhydianbanner3590 To answer your question about whether recruiting young men to fight, kill, and die in war is immoral, the answer is “absolutely”. For the most part, war is when young men kill and die to serve the machinations of old men. This, however, in no way diminishes the immorality of old men recruiting young women to engage in sex for money.
@@sinisterminister3322 it's just an example. I'm not equating anything or asking a moral question. Do you understand my greater point about what destiny was trying to do in the conversation?
@@rhydianbanner3590 I think I understand your point, but he went about it the wrong way by bullying her-at least that is what is sounded like to me. To be clear, in other videos featuring Destiny he seemed very intelligent and reasonable to me. In this one, however, he went off the rails of common decency.
He did allow her to state her position, he just challenged it with a few retorts and she couldn't meaningfully argue against it.
Her stance was that men paying women for sex is coercive and immoral because sex is an inherently intimate act and can be used to pressure someone into doing something they don't want to do because the circumstances force them.
This point can have merit in extreme cases, but it doesn't account for the fact that,
1:Not all prostitution is run by sex trafficking.
2:There are women who CHOOSE those occupations and ignoring that further stigmatizes the sex worker industry.
3:Sex is not an inherently intimate act, that's why concepts like hookups/FWBs exist.
4:Working at a job and being pressured to do something you wouldn't otherwise do is something that most people in general are subjected to in their day to day lives.
Has Destiny ever actually read any of the research with those who have left prostitution? Or any statistics about the levels of exploitation and trafficking in the sex trade? I would guess not, from his answers - the standard of his answers suggests wikipedia and twitter threads is the extent of his research.
ofcourse not, why would any male who wants scrotes to have the possibility to buy the use of a womans body care about stats?
Which is why you legalize it and that's his point.
The reason drug cartels exist is because some narcotics are illegal. And so entire underground economies are formed when that's the case.
Oh, you've read "Wikipedia" instead of a couple of people's whining on Twitter or cherrypicked surveys?
8:26 After that response Destiny could've ended the conversation in good conscious, this girl is insane.
Also, I know it's not very common nowadays, but males absolutely sell sex, it's called gigolo.
To ugly old rich Women yes.
"Do you think petty theft is the same as murder?"
"Well I think it's all crime, so I would say that it is... it's all connected"
I don’t think the gigolo industry is as big tho
@@balbeaniegg5895 Exactly
@@balbeaniegg5895 How is that really relevant though? If I ask you if farming free range chickens is morally acceptable, and your response is that the caged industry is much larger... And? Just answer the question, Jesus.
If I asked you about the morality of underwater chicken farming then you may have a point that no one is doing it so it's a waste of time to discuss.
32:49 that’s a great point - if you allow someone to just restate their whole ideology everytime you ask questions, then the audience will eventually feel like you are arguing with their ideology.
The problem with debates focusing on sex work is that these hypotheticals are hypotheticals. We forget how addiction and mental health plays a part in the sex industry and, as a recovering sex/porn addict, this industry fuels addiction.
That was painful lol. Listening to her literally gave me a headache. Destiny's questions were super clear and she couldn't answer one.
I've been around sex work for 10 years. I've managed and worked security. I can tell you from experience. They are all predators. From the escort, the stripper, the shot girl, the bouncers, the drug dealers, the gang bangers, the bartenders. They are all working angles to manipulate weaker people. In 10 years I met 5 people out of thousands who I'd say were okay humans, and all five were ashamed of the way we earned money. I've never met a happy person who wasn't a monster in the sex working industry. If you think sex work is okay then there is something wrong with you as a person.
Only 10 mins in but I don't blame her for leaving if Destiny is going to be this bad faith the entire time. His example of "selling feet pics on twitter vs. a child being trafficked" as representing the difference between pornography and prostitution was insanely bad faith. He took the mildest possible example of porn to compare to the most extreme possible example of prostitution to try and make a point about how different they are, that's like a textbook bad faith argument. I'm starting to wonder if he is always this bad faith and I just don't realize it because usually I agree. This conversation is garbage so far and it is 100% on Destiny for making it garbage.
He’s trying to explain the difference, so he used an obvious example to illustrate that. Starting somewhere they can agree, he can walk the examples closer together to find where the line is. This is a basic way to find the actual disagreement. I think you only see bad faith BECAUSE you disagree, so…
The interesting thing about this debate is I don’t have stakes in either opinion and it’s just interesting to see their conversation break down along the lines of their instinctual feelings towards the topic. I understand both their takes but I think Destiny would agree he was emotionally attached to this one and I like when he’s more empathetic.
I think she was on to a line of argument with more potential when she said 'retail job doesn't have the possibility of trauma' but she just didn't see it and let it slip away. I imagine if she made the hypothetical from there of going into a poor villiage and buying ppls limbs and organs from them as a comparison to sex work (cause they both are consensual exchanges with long lasting trauma in her view) that might have worked better.
That’s dumb because retail is a very stressful job for a lot of people, trauma is formed when we deal with stress that’s overwhelming. She just wanted to make female trauma more important than male trauma and that’s ignorant. Male suicide is the highest because society shares her view more than actually addressing the nuance of trauma on humans.
@94 FT Of Logic _IDR I specifically said it was a line of argument with more potential, not that she was right. Either you don't respect your words enough to use them correctly or you're too dumb to understand what i said.
Yeah, sometimes Destiny's a dick but he was being extremely reasonable here- even after a humiliating defeat in SC2.
Such a blunt argument, Destiny. To say all jobs are equivalent because there's an exchange of money is simplistic, naive and mediocre.
The element of " coercion " she's talking about is involved in pretty much any job though. That's why she looked dumb
It's correct though, unless you can actually indicate a way that makes it uniquely different
She’s got a point there!!; “how many women do you know have paid for sex?? Like that is a common thing eh!!”.
Some women have and some still do, even if it's a tiny percentage as compared to men paying for sex with women.
That's not so much a point as a sentence, though, is it? The fact that far more men pay women for sex than the other way around means, what? Besides showing her grasp of the obvious, we don't know. We don't know because she didn’t even give us a hint as to what the hell she was talking about and stormed off rather than defining her position, supporting and explaining it. I guess she figures that's better than admitting she's a fraud.
It's not surprising, in looking at the context in which she said the words your comment quotes. If you recall, it was not in explanation of the position or philosophy she was supposedly there to talk about, or part of any larger truth. Nor did she make her comment as proof she had one becsuse she said nothing at all to tell us what that position, larger truth or facts were at any point in the interview.
Rather, in context, she said what you quoted as yet another intellectually dishonest detour of evasion and avoidance in answering his very rudimentary questions about what she really believed and thought was important and well-vetted enough to tell the world. This includes her total refusal to answer a very simple, valid question from earlier in the discussion from Destiny: If she believes all porn and/or all prostitution is always inherintly coercive of women, is there any standard at all or ever, even hypothetical, whereby it may not be?'
But she has no answer because she has no position, no argumentation and certainly, no thesis. What she does have is some feelings about some things, some words, a few absurdly vague tropes to spill and an incredible amount of gall in posing as some one who's serious-minded or deeply-concerned. She has clearly not done enough work or thinking to merit listening to.
If that ever changes and she loses the entitlement, finds humility enough to learn and no longer feels her opinions on this or anything to be self-validating, then I’ll be ready to listen again. Until then, she does women and the causes she's taking up, ostensibly on their behalf, a terrible disservice.
I hate to have written this and to have understood the blue-haired fop's frustration. I fairly detest Deatiny and feel intuitively that both porn and prostitution have now had an awful affect on society, and are overwhelmingly bad for both men and women. But that is how I feel, personally and that's not enough in persuasion.
This is yet another absolutely infuriating "debate" with someone that does not have the slightest clue how their blatant ignorance and refusal to answer even a single question makes them unlikeable as fuck.
Bless her heart, I hope she won't ever have to suffer through the pain of listening to herself through a critical lens.