When DS9 was originally on the air I didn't notice any undertones between Bashir and Garak. Admittedly I was a lot younger and didn't notice anything like that on any show. Now that I'm older and have come out myself I'll watch a Bashir/Garak episode and I'm practically yelling at the screen "Bashir stop chasing after Dax. It's creepy and she isn't into you. Go after Garak he obviously wants you."
I never noticed it in my youth either, but I recently was rewatching DS9 for the first time in years and was positively gobsmacked by how blatantly unsubtle it was and how obliviously naïve the younger me must have been to have missed it. It's not just in the dialogue, but in the action, specifically just how handsy Garak tends to be with Bashir.
I only watched it a few months ago (wasn't born in the 90s lol), but I didn't really see it with Garak and Julian. Jadzia, though....in fact, the Trill race as a whole. It seemed like a way to incorporate it into the show without outright putting it in the show. Am I making sense?
One slight note: Spirk didn't grow JUST from the LGBT+ community looking for non-hetero. A lot of it was pioneered by hetero women who wanted to add some romance into the series but felt limited by the lack of well-rounded female characters (especially among kirks "conquests"). Instead of making OC's (100% mine do not steal) they started extrapolating one of the only deep emotional relationships on-screen. It's basically the precursor to YAOI. These are the women that launched the letter-writing campaign to get it picked up again. and get the movies made They're the ones that published zines and organized fan conventions. Without shippers - trek wouldn't exist at all. Hell, I also love pointing out to sexist asshats that it only exists because of women PERIOD - Lucielle Ball and Whoopie Goldberg were instrumental in keeping ToS and TNG on air.
The Slash Fiction Fanclub is a common trope in anime, with girls obsessed with boy/boy being a big enough thing that an entire series was written about one who refuses to get a real boyfriend because she's happier with her ships. :D
Laura and I exchanged email when I was writing Spirk; she had a website which had all kinds of her own proofs of the relationship. I myself saw them as bondmates in the Vulcan manner. I even wound up correcting a small error she made in Amok Time. I often wonder what happened to her.
Actually, he didn't. It was all McCoy. T'Pau allowed McCoy to give Kirk an injection of Tri-ox compound to help him breathe the thin Vulcan air. McCoy had appealed to her sense of fairness, saying something like, "If the heat doesn't kill him, the thin air will." Then, instead of Tri-ox, McCoy gave Kirk something to knock him out. When Kirk appeared dead, Spock stopped trying to kill him.
I'm not sure Geordie was ever interested in women for real. The most significant "romantic" attachment he's shown to have in the show is with Leah Brahms - a celebrity (as far as Geordie is concerned) who he idolizes and treats as if he knows personally. She's like his Lady Gaga/Liza Minelli/Bea Arthur.
Levar Burton said it in an interview, you can find it here on YT. Geordie was written to be gay! But at some point, the writers were like "Maybe its to much, gay, black and blind...well we cant change black and blind anymore so lets drop the gay part"
The Great Bird of the Galaxy has stated that he created LaForge's character as a closeted gay man, who does not "know who he is". Sad for the character.
Thank you for such a sweet take on shipping culture. A lot of people who comment get fixated on the more extreme aspects of it (transgressive ships or toxic shipping wars) but it's nice to see a reviewer recognize that shipping can be a sweet way to enjoy characters in LGBTQ relationships. As a lesbian, I like to imagine parallel worlds where my favorite characters share my orientation. Not canon and I don't need the creators to bend to my wishes, but it makes the shows and stories more enjoyable for me.
I'm giving Mackie the benefit of the doubt that, as an actor, he believes that people are "misinterpreting" his intended performance of a man in a non-sexual but still intimate friendship with another man. What he seems to be failing to see is that it doesn't matter what the original intent was, it's OK for people to see something other than what the creators imagined with their fictional characters. In our sister sci-fi franchise, Mark Hamill has famously said that he didn't intentionally play Luke Skywalker as a gay or queer character, but if that's how some fans envision him, then of course he is. Steve's simple observation that fictional characters are not actual people, they can be whatever someone wants or needs for them to be, is a lesson that would singlehandedly detoxify the fandom if everyone were capable of taking it to heart.
I think Mackie's quote is saying that some shippers are shipping just to be bandwagon jumpers. So there's an air of being not genuine. And bandwagon jumping is the overreaction he's referring to. Or I'm reading too much into this. That being said, Steve's remark to detoxify really does need to be taken to heart.
Mackie's quote strikes me, hard, as a response to accusations of queer baiting... which he might be missing some of the point of (I haven't looked into why that's come up and am myself a clueless dweeb on such), but I can see how that might frustrate him as a reaction to what he sees as an important representation of male friendship. I am going to hunt down the context, because if queer baiting was specifically brought up, it's a mistake to not include that context, because that is *not* a neutral question about shipping at that point.
@@bryanv1681 That's a risk no matter what you create or why. The interpretation of the audience isn't any less valid than the author's intent. One does not need to overwrite the other, even special circumstances like "death of the author" don't erase the original creative vision (rather people just agree to move forward with another so that a beloved work does not end due to or become marred by the opinions or actions of someone who created the work).
@@bryanv1681 "Because otherwise what's the point of trying to create art with any intent if the consumers can just overwrite what you're saying?" Sorry, you do not understand art. Granted, many artists don't either. The "consumers" (Jesus Christ) making their on reading has been part of art since the dawn of humanity, complaining about that is just... Seriously, you don't need to be an art graduate, this should be primary school art class level.
"DS9 is like a key party attended exclusively by coked-up swingers who hate each other" is the most accurate description of that shipping community I have ever heard. Magnificent! also, I've got a degree in lit analysis and I love bringing that into my fandoms. Intention only goes so far when faced with interpritation, and academic papers have been written on contextualizing less than what is given in some Star Trek ships. All I'm saying is if I can convince an academic journal to publish a paper on multiple layered meanings and interpretations of the word "strange" in line 8 of some poem about a woman Zeus abused, then you can ship whoever you god damn want. Any textual evidence is evidence enough, anything can be considered a valid interpriation! SPRIK FOR LIFE!
I’m sorry if this sounds ignorant, but, what sort of benefits have you gained by having said degree in literary analysis? I am 30, finally starting college soon (I’ve been a paralegal for 10 or so years instead) and am trying to figure out what I want to study. I write every day, from journaling to prose to poetry to thought pieces/essays. I have always wondered if I could make a career out of one of my passions, of which I would certainly consider writing in that regard. Any info you can provide would be very much appreciated!
@@veespa_ Honestly, it helps teach you how to break down the layers in text form what's on the page to the real world influence that helped create it like biases, beliefs, and real life cultures, as well as teach you how to defended and support interpretations (some times contradictory) of a work/ passage/ quote, etc. I do Lectures on Fandom and Fanfiction as part of my Job as a youth librarian and I know a lot of people that make writing about or lecturing on niche topics (example: one of my coworkers does a crypts of new England lecture she gets hired to give) there jobs. Anyone can become an expert in anything, my undergrad adviser was a foremost expert on Jane Austen and it was her whole career. You don't need the credentials but it really helps to take classes that expand and deconstruct how you consume and engage with media if you want to understand poetry, lit, or even your own righting on a more surface level. P.s sorry this comment is so late, hope schools going well and your still writing!!!!
I never non-ironically shipped until i saw that episode from Voyager where Tom Paris and Harry Kim are in jail together. It's literally the most homoerotic thing I've seen in the entire franchise.
"The Chute" is the one I assume you're talking about? Yeah, I can see it. I absolutely love the final scene. "Tom, listen to me. I… I almost killed you." "What are you saying? You're the one that kept me alive." "I was ready to hit you with the pipe. Don't you remember?" "You want to know what I remember? Someone saying 'This man is my friend. Nobody touches him.' I'll remember that for a long time."
@@scaper8 yeah, and then there's also the bit when they're first in prison where Paris and another inmate have some kind of dispute which invariably seems like they're fighting over Kim. That plus the role reversal where Tom is quickly turned into the helpless one due to injury makes it seem like fanfic. (I have to assums the writers themselves saw it, because it has a blatant "oh damn they seem kind of gay, better have an obligatory delaney sisters reference) while they are canoodling).
Wait is no one else shipping Tilly and Michael? Like they are every lesbian couple I know, and I personally find it hilarious that the show keeps trying to make Michael straight. (Even though every character in Star Trek is bi until proven otherwise, come at me)
Right? I was surprised when it wasn't mentioned. I don't ship Michael and Georgiou. Maybe Micheal had feelings for HER captain, but definitely not the mirror world one. She can't stand her. Micheal and Tilly are perfect, especially after Micheal's disastrous "relationship" with Ash. Gag me with a spoon.
If Tilly remains as XO under Burnham then they better get a lot of screen time. Even more adorable given that Michael started off not exactly liking being bunked with Tilly.
There's also the fact that canonically, Cardasian necks are erroneous zones, like Ferengi ears. Meaning that when Garak stood up to leave and gave the "So glad to have made such an interesting new friend today", grabbing Juline's shoulders, he was doing the Cardasian equivalent of grabbing his ass
I utterly adore "Our Man Bashir"! Given that Garak's character owes no small amount to the cynical, gritty spies of John Le Carre's novels like "Tinker, *Tailor* (helloooo?), Soldier, Spy", it was great fun and very clever to have him walk into one of the adolescent omnipotence fantasies that are James Bond stories (and that so well reflect Bshir's juvenile cockiness)... # Garashir4eva
Garek and Bashir have some of the best exchanges in Trek. Like when Garek tells Bashir everything he said was true "especially the lies." I know Steve has gone into this in a previous video but he was absolutely right. And the two men who had the most to lose from their secrets leaking, who had constantly to play spy games and deal in innuendo and subterfuge, were also the two who spoke the most truths no one else had the courage to admit. Imagine how happy they both would be if in the end they'd got together. They were cursed in their heterosexual love life, but they understood each other in a way no one else ever could. Don't they deserve to be happy? :)
Before watching the video I wanted to comment saying that Enterprise is probably the most homoerotic series of Star Trek. There's a very Top Gun episode where Captain Archer & Trip play sweaty shirtless team sports while bonding with another group of sweaty macho shirtless aliens who are accused of being terrorists.
"The only thing to keep Spock from jumping Kirk's bones right there is... Bones is right there." ROTFLMAO - excellent, Steve. :-D As a Gay man myself, I could never get into anyone in Star Trek, but this might be due to the fact I started watching it from episode one in 1966 when I was 5 years old. LOL I've been thinking about you this week because I started rewatching your favorite Trek series...Voyager. :-D I'm now at the end of the 3rd season, and a 'spatial anomaly" appears knocking the warp drive offline so Voyager couldn't pull away. (surprise!) Then Tom Paris goes out in a shuttle when another anomaly appears, but this time all the transporters go offline, but the engines are working perfectly. (facepalm!) Janeway screams, "get any transporter lock on Tom!" to which Belanna screams, "I can't connect to any of them!" (another massive FACEPALM!!) It was at this moment I realized I've seen several episodes like this recently during my rewatch binge, and indeed, there are MANY in Voyager, all which become painfully apparent when watching so many episodes back-to-back. (sigh!) You've pointed out this series "flaw" many times, and I had a good belly chuckle think about you yesterday. Just had to tell you so. :-D
Regarding Garak's sexuality; I got a very asexual vibe from his performance, and I think that romantic ambiguity really served to enhance Garak's mystery. That said, I'm not opposed to the idea of Garashir (or, as it should be, Bashrak) it's just not the interpretation that works for me! I didn't get the idea that Garak was romantically interested in Ziyal, either. I'm sure he cared for her, but he seemed more interested in *her* interest in him. Even when he stood by her dead body, and Kira said "she loved you" he replied with "I could never figure out why" rather than "and I loved her."
I agree that Garak never seemed romantically interested in Ziyal but I never got asexual from him. He seems very much open to whatever and he definitely finds Julian attractive. That said - it could all be acting and I suspect, to an extent, he might not know himself what he really wants any more, after a life spent calculating and lying. I love that you got that from him though! I adore how much is in Trek for all of us. My asexual icon is Weyoun :D
@@TheHopperUK It's a testament to how well conceived the character was, and how brilliantly he was portrayed, that so much of his personality is open to interpretation; how much is genuine and how much is obfuscation. It's things like this that make DS9 my all time favourite TV show.
Garak had a very stern overbearing father who made him into a habitual liar through physical and emotional abuse/torture... I can see how a closeted individual might relate to this.
Apparently, Alan Robinson and Alexander Siddiqui both started playing their guys as well, very interested, and the writers also thought that this would be one of the first, if not the first, gay pairings around, but Berman and the other executives freaked out and demanded that the boys both get straight girlfriends or at least go after them... Now, during Covid, those two actors got together and did a live action fanfic, reprising Garak and Bashir. .. as husbands...as in happily married to each other for lo! these many years. It's fantastic!!! It's on RUclips look it up!
I really appreciate this video I really just find it nice to see a straight guy not weirded out by these ships and able to understand why people like them and find them sweet
However I do disagree with criticizing Mackie's comments, just because I do believe he was basically put in a no-win scenario with that question, either you piss off your bosses at Disney and risk your career by acknowledging fan ships (something disney kind of hates to do), or you try and tread a line of "no homo" and I think he took the latter in that case. I think he just phrased it really, really badly.
Kind of agree. I only know of the interview from this very video, and I didn't watch _Falcon and the Winter Soldier_ (I probably will at some point, but I just haven't gotten around to it), but it sounds an awful lot like someone trying to weasel out if a question and bungling it terribly.
I kind of end up in the same position because part of why people react to so much, especially to that show, is the writers themselves and the show actually did a lot. Like we had one of the lead writers responding to somebody pointing out wait a second when Bucky is talking about online dating he makes a reference that can only be about looking up dudes and said writer responded wait and see. (And then no follow up in the show, so thanks on telling people to wait for nothing.) If you get told to wait and see for decades and decades, eventually you're going to go How about instead you either just do stuff or stop trying to have your cake and eat it too. And while on one hand I have a lot of sympathy especially for an actor getting put in a no-win situation like this I also feel for fans who are tired of being gaslighted by others, so they're maybe not going to be the kindest to this response. Also I really feel like the argument about can't guys just be friends is just weaponized too much exclusively against hey stop trying to make *anything* gay because heaven forbid everything not be straight, instead of much actual concern about hey let's normalize male friendships that are different. Because you really don't see the same argument pop up about hey why can't a man and a woman infection just be friends without it being a romantic thing. And when that keeps being the case it feels like it's actually about gayness instead of about friendship.
@@scaper8 oh it definitely is, and then it got posted as like the selective quote to generate controversy i think he just got caught off guard by the question
He should have just said something short like: People have always interpreted works of fiction in different ways. Mostly punts the question without bringing controversy. Instead he put out a word salad that makes him look like a homophobe...
What are you talking about? Evans and Stan have both acknowledged Stucky at one point and Daisy Ridley, Oscar Isaac, and John Boyega openly acknowledge that FinnPoe should've been canon, and have said so multiple times.
K/S fanfic was among the first Trek fanfic and probably inspired some of the first Trek fanzines and powered some of the most intense Trek fandom back in the ‘70s. Hence the term “slash”. The odd thing about it is, it was virtually all written by women, not by gay men, and women were also the target audience. There was more than a little controversy about this among gay Trek fans back in the day - kind of a feeling that someone else was presuming to tell their stories. This made the arrival of Garak on DS9 extra exciting, since here was clearly a character being played as gay and flirting with another man. Subtext became text, and the covert more overt. It’s unfortunate the producers didn’t have the balls to let it play out, even just covertly and not officially acknowledged.
I'm an oblivious cis-dude, but my brother came out 20 years ago, so I've been an ally for a long time. I was still today-years-old before I ever even considered that Garak was gay. I think they could have let it play out. We cis-folk would not have picked up.
“Let him get the training wheels off before you get him out there trying stunts.” This statement encapsulates why I subscribe to your channel. Can’t always align with your pov but that devilish humor…
So I wanted to give some critique as a bisexual woman who has had lesbian relationships. First of all, thank you for bringing this conversation to your audience. From some of the commentary I've seen, it seems like you were able to introduce some wonderful concepts to your viewers, and I really appreciate that. That being said, I wanted to bring some awareness to how you handled talking about relationships between women in your video, namely with Crusher/Troi and Janeway/SevenofNine. The whole point of your conversation centered about how LGBTQIA+ persons were able to create representation for themselves through fanfic, but you cast the conversation about the lesbian relationships through your eyes as a cis straight man rather than how lesbians who have these ships would view them. At least for me, it is the same as those with gay ships finding representation, its seeing the dynamics of the actual relationship on screen, and translating that into intimacy and closeness. A lot of times there's this experience that we as women who love other women are seen by straight cis men as objects that are sexy together for their pleasure. A really easy example of this is porn. The way that lesbian women interact sexually is nothing like how women in porn are seen, which literally is filmed through the lense of bringing enjoyment to men. A lot of my lesbian friends have had experiences where they were propositioned by men in front of their girlfriends, and when they tell the men they have absolutely no interest, they get offended that a woman would have no interest in a man. So I just have this very deep discomfort with you talking about wlw relationships not for what they are, like Troy and Crusher being there for each other and emotionally holding each other up, even when they're slapped together with some sort of romantic interest for an episode. For me, there was always something much more meaningful in how Crusher and Troy truthfully loved and supported each other when their relationships with men in the series was always so dry and forced to me. Not to mention the relationship between Michael and Tilly in Discovery! I loved their dynamic and how Tilly was able to pull Michael out of her shell when she first arrived. But TL;DR. Thank you for bringing this to your audience, but is very destructive to women in the lgbtqia+ community when you cast their relationships through your experiences as a straight cis male rather than the intention of this video, which was to show how being able to create representation for yourself when there are no good examples of it in the world is so empowering. I hope that you can continue to learn more about the community, and help build us up an an ally!!
That's a very good point, I sort of thought he was playing it as a joke in the video about how typically men act this way but maybe he was being serious about his comments on J7 on Crusher/Troi
I don't usually comment, but I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your video! You're really objective and open-minded and it's always a pleasure to listen to your analyses. And also, I appreciate the subtitles, as English is not my first language and I usually struggle to understand everything without them. Thank you!
🏆 I’ve chosen this video as my personal winner of the “Delightfully Surprising Pride Month Ally Content Choice” award! As a lesbian and sci-fi enthusiast who can’t help but LOVE gay ships, your straight dude non-shipper self giving genuine (albeit sometimes awkward) support for them in this video was … appreciated 😂 On behalf of the possible DOZEN of over 30 lesbian trek nerds subbed to you, Thanks Steve for making this video! 😂
I'm all for shipping mostly because it takes nothing away from me and my enjoyment of the show. As a straight white dude, I never really had to dig for representation so I'm glad everyone can get some. The closest thing I do to shipping is to revel in non-superficial men's friendship. Star Trek and LotR offer plenty of what would generally be viewed as "manly men" being gentle, soft-spoken and affectionate, not only to their partners but to their friends, without the fear of being label as lesser (or as the cavemen would say, "gay"). I guess it really shows how patriarchy has affected men too when what you try to find out in movies and entertainment is meaningful friendships and genuine feelings between friends.
I like to think, if we treat Kirk and Spock as a couple, it implies that Kirk and Bones were also once a couple. Imagine Kirk and Bones dated when they were young and have become the exes that grew into a friendship. Bones is that ex that Kirk trusts and keeps as a confidant. Bones, might still have feelings for Kirk, but he is a professional, and keeps it to himself. However, when Kirk and Spock become a couple, Bones can't help but feel at least some animosity towards Spock. That animosity comes out as the occasional jab at Spock's physiology. Spock, being logical understands where Bones animosity comes from, but also realizes that Kirk is with Spock now, and there is no logical reason to take it personally.
I've been a shipper since the very first time I watched an X-files episode. For me it's just a bit of fun. I don't need my ships to be canon, but I understand why some people do. I think there's a clear issue with LGBTQIA+ representation, but there's more to it than that. The way, as an example, women are portrayed in the original Star Trek series is... less than ideal. They often only, apart from Uhura, Nurse Chapel and a few others, serve a eye candy, and/ or romantic interests for the male characters. It's hard for me to ship hetero couples on TOS without feeling iffy about it, especially shipping Kirk with a woman gives me the heebie jeebies because of how he's often seen leering at them on the series. I wouldn't want to be a woman and date Kirk. Shipping for me is most fun when the charaters have an equeal relationship. (Yes, I know Spock is Jim's subordinate, but Spock could literally break him in half if he wanted to.) This problem with female characters being rather flat and uninteresting, while male character are fleshed and well rounded is a common problem in popular media, and I think that's is partly why there's so much same gender shipping.
God, do I agree. I was searching for some Walking Dead Michonne/Rick fanfic, and I couldn't find too much character driven stories. And than I realized, yeah, I'd have a hard time writing that, too, since she is an amazing character - but other than some missjudgements, what's really going on with her other than her mother-thing? She has a lot of great moments, but there isn't really any depth to her - compared to others in the same show, that is. I haven't read the comics, and I didn't spend much time on any research, but in the TV show, the women are amazing, strong, fighters, as they have to be, and make mistakes at times - but they don't HAVE mistakes, they just let one strenght get in the way of another, in a way. And that is comparetively modern and with at least some amount of understanding for how humans work. -.- I love that we don't serve eyecandy-must-gasp points any longer (mostly), but now I'm a bit at a loss as to how to connect to the more modern type of can-do-badass types that are around - I'm most certainly not one. Different priorities, emotions, thoughts, all that can conflict, leads to messing up while still winning, making mistakes while doing the right thing, that sort of stuff that makes stories interesting - and female characterizations still lack that way to often. They usually don't even get too much of a story for any of that, no inner perspective, even in lead roles. Like, being female is to not being allowed to mess up or have more than one inner motive at any given time. -.- Kirk did, in the sixties, disobeying rules to safe Spock, loving the Enterprise but loving some of the people around him and some of the most important attributes of himself more, willing to, in the end, sacrifice one thing over another. Women still don't get much of that complexity, even while being the main protagonist. It's annoying. So, I'm off to read another Kirk/Spock story, then.
In shipping I think there’s a very difficult line to place between the importance of representation and importance of not expanding fetishization and toxic masculinity
The single most romantic thing I've ever seen in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Spock recovering in sickbay, him and Kirk grasping hands (which is established canon as how vulcans kiss), talking about this simple feeling.🥰🏳️🌈
Julian after meeting Garak acts exactly like a baby queer who has a crush but doesn't yet *realize* why they are suddenly intensely drawn to and fixated on this person. I think this is an experience a lot of us go through in our queer awakenings - it's so cute and relatable! From how I see it, Julian initially seems to have that kind of reaction but eventually I think he comes to terms with it and his flirting style seems to grow more intentional in time.
I was surprised you missed the episode of Voyager that is the epitome of being "the episode" for one gay ship. "The Chute" is a classic for those who ship Harry Kim and Tom Paris.
Shipping is such a... Strange subject to me. Like, I DO ship, I have my own personal preferential pairings in multiple series. However, I am incredibly analytic in my approach to characters so I prefer my ships to have more than a handful of singular moments. Heck, I'll admit that my own conditions for accepting a pair may be completely arbitrary. Unfortunately, most of the time when I see a ship as 'nonsensical,' they end up being a ship that goes against the established or implied sexuality of the character. Of course there's a lot of ambiguous characters since those moments just don't exist and I'm more able to accept whatever as long as I can identify the character chemistry. On a side note I take massive issue with those who obsess over ships that were they exist would be MASSIVELY problematic via abuse or otherwise. Dysfunctional relationships are not 'cool,' or, 'cute,' especially ones where the health of at least one of those involved would be compromised because at least one of the two actually hates the other. Of course, if this comments paints me as close minded at the end of the day then that perhaps both is and is not my intention. I am willing to let my opinions be checked because I want to be a better individual myself.
@@grumpyotter I mainly did not give any examples as I don't really have any that relate to the series used as the vehicle for the discussion. Star Trek is one of the handful I don't ship in myself. However if I will try my best to explain some examples from other series I enjoy. Disapprove: Deku & Bakugo from My Hero Academia. Falls squarely under the category of, 'at least of of the two characters hates the other with a passion and any resulting intimacy would be abusive and toxic,' which to my further dismay is presented as a selling point in a large enough portion of artistic depiction from the fanbase. Goku & Caulifla from Dragon Ball Super. The idea that Goku, a happily married man, would ditch his wife on a whim for a girl from another universe that he barely knows-who is also a great deal younger than him. Just not under age, thankfully-all because they fought each other once and had fun, is just... I don't resonate with it. Approve (admittedly harder because I approve of a lot, but then my choices of preference are slim.): Marnie & Protagonist from Pokemon Sword and Shield. Evidence-wise, it's on the weaker side for me. Though I still enjoy it. Having played the game myself and seeing how Marnie interacts with you despite your silence, I can't help but suspect. Additionally because you can be boy or girl, if the ship were true it technically makes her bi(?). I can't really think of another approved one that I want to specifically mention, there's so many. You get the idea, yeah?
One thing I'd like to point out is that in star trek the Multiverse exists making every ship valid because although in the universe we see these characters didn't get together theirs a universe where seven way is valid a universe where odo and quark hook up. Star trek is truly a place of acceptance and maybe one day we'll see these universes were our favourite ships get together
I definitely picked up on Garak trying to seduce Bashir, but I obliviously assumed it to be the non-sexual kind of seduction. More like winning him over because he's naive and can be turned into Garak's advocate. Now that I've actually typed that out... I realize that the two are not mutually exclusive.
I love Garek & Bashir. I was so happy to be on the zoom during these moments. Star Trek is all about the love of the fans & dedication of the cast & crew. Love Wins
Amazing video! And, coming from someone who's bisexual, please don't think that just because you're not LGBT yourself that you're ignorant, doing your research and actually trying is the most important thing by far and it's clear you've done plenty of both! If this video is any indication, the thoughtfulness and general mindset with which you treat these topics is probably just about as good as most gay folks I know. We need more people like you!
Kirk stated that Spock's soul was his responsibility, as much as his own. Gene created the word t'hy'la for Kirk and Spock, the definition of which includes 'lover'. So. Yeah, it's got its hints and its foundations. On the Garak/Bashir front the actors performed a play at cons where they declared their love for each other. I live in the hope that one day a Trek series will make them canon. Cause in my mind there's no way Bashir didn't go hunt Garak down one day and set up home.
Omg! I'm so stunned and happy that you mentioned two of my ships - Garashir and Qcard. Though, Steve, the way you talked about Garashir, it does sound like you ship it. Another top ship is TuckReed. But that's just me. It's good to see a positive view on shippers, we tend to be mocked a lot in my experience. Cant wait for the Qcard episode!
See, but I never got 'romantic' vibes from Ziyal and Garak. I'm sure he cared about her, probably even loved her, but he seemed more driven by his fascination of her attraction towards him.
@@sarahscott5305 Same. I see them as like... a kid having a crush on their English teacher, or some similarly unattainable older dude. I'm glad Andrew Robinson plays Garak as slightly uncomfortable with it (his panicked face when she kisses him comes to mind) , rather than jumping into it like "oh we're doing this now!! great garak's got a girlfriend" . Eternally grateful for Andy, imagine if some other actor had played Garak. IMAGINE STRAIGHT GARAK. *shudders*
Given I'm very lesbian I naturally gravitate towards the women pairings, but I've always held a soft spot for Data/LaForge partly because of their roles as the engineering / 'get it done' sciencey types but also because of one thing that gets skimmed over alot; They share some quite intimate moments in android terms, like where someone will talk about data in non-human terms and Geordi pulls them up on it, or when data has an issue and Geordi, being the engineer, is the one to diagnose him and hook him up to the computer. There's this scene one time when he removes his head section to reveal all the blinkey lights and you can see Geordi sort of mesmerised but also taken aback because who else gets to see him this way? In a uniquely vulnerable position?
Liked the video a lot. English is not my first language so I had to concentrate not to think of starships when he said ships. “There are a lot of ships on DS9” well duh. 😂
I don't understand exactly where Mackie is coming from, but I can only imagine having a legion of people make fan art in your likeness has to change your perspective on shipping.
I read his comments more along the lines of "Don't let people queerbait you into buying or supporting things you would never normally support". But he could have also said something like: They are just friends that are as close as brothers. Because Jesus, I have friends that I love more than my brother, and I'm a happily married cisgender heterosexual man. But I still tell my friend that I love him, because I do. Tell people, and show people, how you feel, regardless of what some stupid "be a man" toxic-John Wayne crap your repressed dad told you to do.
He was a bit wordy and over-explained. I think he wanted to say, the two dudes are just really close friends who care about each other, and that does not mean they are romantically or sexually attracted/involved. There are different types of love. I don't like this thing that's coming up more and more recently, where anyone that even remotely cares about someone else MUST want to bang them. His statement makes perfect sense to me. You can be the closest friends in the world, even closer than some "lovers", while having zero romantic or sexual interest. It can make friends sort of like family. Not relegated to guys etiher...two girls can be incredibly close friends, who care about and love each other like family, while both of them are straight with zero sexual interest in each other. The "oh, they care about each other, they MUST want to bang" thing these 'shippers' often say makes me want to gag sometimes, it's insulting to imply that you would only care about someone because you're sexually interested.
@@StormsparkPegasus I think he was also trying to allude to the root of why there is practically no representation in the MCU. The corporate overlords at Disney would say there are strategic reasons not to just throw it out there, but what they really mean is 'We're more interested in appeasing China'. Chinese $$$'s are worth more to them than the Pink Pound ever will be, so they give us lip service.
What a lovely homage to the truth that people who find meaning in art become artists themselves. I was very touched by that sweet little scene between Garak and Bashir. I didn't interpret it that way when I watched the show; Garak always seemed to play his sexuality close to the vest as he did so many other things, but given that precise ambiguity I can absolutely see how he could go all sorts of ways.
I remember reading in a novelization that when asked about the rumors based on his relationship with Spock answered something like: what's a bit anoying in that rumor is not the nature or orientation of the implied relationship, but that it implies that i´m dumb enough to choose a sexual partner that has urges only once every seven years"
I agree with you on a lot of this, however I do think the point about people feeding too much into a relationship to make it something it isn't is a valid point. However this normally doesn't come from the groups who are underrepresented themselves but comes from Media interpretation of what does group saying and normally other organisations Muddying the waters. I recently done some research into this with regard to the Apu character from The Simpsons and all the stuff that has come up around that. You look at any article which talks about the withdrawal of that character from the show it very rarely, Echoes the sentiment behind why the character was called out to begin with. Most of the Indian people asked about the character we're not concerned about the fact that he was played by a white actor for example and understood that the show comprised of a cast that did several impressions. The problem really with apu was that he was one of the only stereotypical benchmarks for American Indians on TV for the last 30 years. This wasn't helped with the show and there is an argument to be made especially in our times for a show such as The Simpsons to have a more diverse writing team because a lot of the things that were acceptable back in 90s just simply wouldn't fly today as we have moved on. As I am registered blind I probably fall into one of those groups being disabled who are not represented and when that particular subgroup are represented they don't necessarily reflect that subgroup because the characters are written by people with no direct understanding.
It's not just a search for representation either because we are lucky enough to start to see that representation on screen (yay for Paul/ Hugh). At least for me it is the search for queer relations that feel fully formed and well rounded. Much like how women often cannot find realistic female characters queer relationships in media are often somewhat one-dimensional. Any representation is a start, good represenation we're still writing for ourselves.
THANK YOU! I never saw Kirk/Spock as a thing, but, as you said, it is certainly a possible fan interpretation. When my same-sex partner and I were neck-deep in Star Wars fan fiction, we wrote a gay relationship between Admiral Piett and an empath, our own character. Lucasfilm sent us a cease-and desist letter and we ignored it. Since fan fiction doesn't really infringe on the canon product or cost the commercial company any money, they couldn't apply any legal pressure, and we published our own fanzine, ignoring Lucasfilm. Some other fan editors also published some of our stories. Ken Colley, who played Piett, sent us a letter saying he didn't mind the pairing at all. We later published a huge -- 300 page -- fan novel about Snake Plissken of the Escape movies and our MartyStu ( male Mary Sue ) same-sex lover for him. It's fun and harmless, and I think a creative way to treat a universe we feel invested in as fans. We're now working on Daryl Dixon from _Walking Dead_
What, no Tilly/Michael pairing? The friendship between Geordi and Data is one of the most deep in fiction. Imagine having a friend you trust so much you not only divulge your deepest secrets to him, but regularly allow him to perform brain surgery on you. Sometimes even highly experimental brain surgery. And when Geordi's not dinking around with Data's hardware, he's tinkering with software, too. Data often collaborates with Geordi when he's reprogramming himself. He asks Geordi for advise, and tells him what his goals are - what he's thinking. When in doubt, he generally goes along with Geordi's suggestions. I don't know about you but there's probably no one I would let straight up reprogram me! When Lore wants to corrupt Data he tests him by asking him if he would kill Geordi to get what he wants, and ultimately this demand fails. If you're going to corrupt or brainwash someone, the best test of their new loyalty is to order them to destroy something previously sacred to them. The more sacred the better. Beyond his "feelings" for Tasha, Geordi was the most sacred center of Data's life. He considered many crew members his friends, but Geordi was his closest friend.
Thanks! This is episode opened my eyes and brought on a transformation in my ideas about love and what it means not just for fictional people but for people in my life (including myself).
It seems Roddenberry himself, for all his forward thinking, had a bit of a problem with homosexuality. His reaction to "Killing Time" and demanding it be rewritten is evidence of that.
Ya he's definitely a flawed person. Although the homosexuality thing he did eventually soften his tone. He actually tried to get a gay character for TNG in the 90's but Rick Burhman was absolutely against it.
Objection at 8:45. TNG is as far as I know the only series before DIS to establish that a character has no interest in a particular gender (Beverly is not attracted to women, main-universe Stamnets and Culber are stated to be exclusively gay), which makes those two less shippable than the others.
As a kid, I always saw the Star Trek Original Series on TV, I noticed that Spocks Vulcan Eyebrows has that Queer takeaway to it. Spocks Eyebrow seemed so gender natural, shapely too, as he has eyelids to protect him from the Sun. Also Spock wore Eyeshadow and most of the Cast did wear Eyeshadow. It's was very strange, but Futuristic. I always loved Star Trek because no matter how we are all different, we belonged to the Stars and we all had a purpose in the Federation and Starfleet, and also we can co-exist with the Gorn, Klingons, Romulans, and many aliens.
Just because some have brought up this worry it seems worthwhile to comment, the tendency to turn emotional close same sex relationships into sexual/romantic relationships (ships) in fanfic should not imply that two men (or two women) can not be close emotionally without sex (or romance), they can never "just be friends". Just as the tendency to turn emotionally close opposite sex relationships into sexual/romantic relationships in fanfic should not imply that a man and a woman can never "just be friends". The error in both cases seems very similar. I am very worried about people who can only imagine emotional intimacy in a sexual context, what the heck must their relationship with their parents be like. While I think both ideas are around, I actually think the "a man and a woman can never just be friends" vibe is actually the way more common one. So it is strange, perhaps even telling, that the sort of worry is mostly brought up for same sex pairings...
I guess one reason I'm not a fan of some gay ships is that its like reinforcing that if guys are close or share feelings than its must hint that they're gay. Like with Frodo and Sam so many people look at that say 'they must be gay' when what the author was going for was to portray the close bonds people form, that sense of camaraderie.
18:06 Voyager ships don't use traditional portmanteau names, they slash the first letters of the last name, eg J/C, P/T/K, J/7. That's were the shipname comes from.
Re: Anthony Mackie. I'm a gay guy and I'm pretty sure I know what Anthony was trying to say. There's a term in media: "Gay Baiting." It's when the writers/producers of a media franchise do everything in their power to make two characters seem like they're gay without ever actually saying or confirming it. This is the "exploitation" I believe Mackie is referring to. Because media has refused to give queer people meaningful representation, and combine that with the flip side of " 'real' men shouldn't be allowed to express emotion or friendship" and you get this weird state we're in now that queer folk see any sort of emotional attachment between two same sex people as inherently queer, while straight folk see it as "woke" or problematic, or ignore it altogether. So I see the point he's trying to make. Movies and TV have exploited their gay audiences to the point that it's difficult to depict two men as having a close platonic bond anymore. This isn't blaming audiences but writers and producers. I personally would like to see more of both. More ACTUAL queer characters, and more platonic healthy same sex friendships. Yes, straight guys need more healthy forms of masculinity depicted in media. (That said, I do think Bucky is inherently queer coded even if they'll never explicitly state it. Shipping him with Sam does feel weird to me though. Steve/Bucky were the ship, while Sam/Bucky just feels like a consolation prize fans came up with that doesn't really fit Sam's character at all)
The way I see Amok Time: It’s about how Spock doesn't need to love in the way his culture or biology tells him he needs to. He doesn't need to marry a woman he isn't interested in if he doesn't want to. He's allowed to feel love in whatever way he wants. And it's the love he feels for Kirk and the shock he feels after supposedly killing him is what shakes him out of his haze. And wouldn't that be just that little bit sweeter if it was a romantic love rather than a platonic one?
Love the Trek Pride shirt, Steve! We can never have too many allies so thanks for showing your support! (that's assuming you're an ally and not gay which I don't believe you are. If you ARE gay then... well... Thanks for wearing the shirt anyway and you should give me a call LOL)
If I had waited to comment instead of just jumping in at the beginning I would have heard your heterosexual disclaimer so just ignore that last part. LOL
Watching this now, during the second season of ST: SNW, I am very glad that the “yawn” Chock (Spapel?) ship is no longer a yawn. And with all due respect to Majel, she was more iconic as the computer (not that she had a lot of latitude with her characters in the 60’s.)
just started watching the original series and it's so cool to think how it has had such a large impact on all sorts of fan culture, including shipping! thank you also for having closed captions on the video, it makes it much easier for me to process what's said. :)
Ok so when I first read the title I was all " Scoff, scoff, scoff....no way" At the end I was all " Who's peeling onions in here?" You done good Steve.
I absolutely hate that pop culture remembers Kirk as a quick to violence womanizer rather than the bookish nerd he was on screen who kissed three women ever. One of which was to distract a slaver and another fake kiss to entertain a god who was threatening his crew. There was only one woman for Kirk, and her name was Enterprise
Perhaps Almasy is a more common name than I know but I can also tell you it's the last name of another popular shipping character: Seifer from Final Fantasy VIII.
6:08 Gotta admit, that smile of Spock slayed me. Then I joined Dr McCoy and nurse Chapel in their giggling corner. XD Dr Bashir and Garak did have a better chemistry than them being with other women, so that ship sailed so easy for me. It sailed even faster when I learned even the actors got on board. Regarding the “just good friends”, whether he misinterpreted the question or not, I’m not sure. But I did know some anime “fandoms” “demanded” the authors to make some straight male friends gay canon instead of writing the fanfiction or did the shipping themselves. The authors know their works are entertainment, so it wasn’t like they forbid fans for that. So yeah, maybe some “fandoms” were alittle too enthusiastic?
I love your opening description of DS9. A party of swingers who hate each other. DS9 is WAY more ship-able than TNG. V-ger has almost no ship game and Enterprise is even worse. Then discovery comes along and overcompensates.
I think he's concentrating on the "fanon", not what's established as canon (even if it's in past canon) onscreen. Fantastic episode, though, and great catch!
I'm glad you didn't mention "Janetay". Chakotay was such a boring, two dimensional character and the Voyager writers kept trying to hook him up with the interesting characters (Seven and Janeway). I would say that Janetay is a more popular ship than JanewayXSeven since the writers of Voyager tried really hard to make Janeway and Seven a mother/daughter dynamic, at least in season 4.
Something that Steve forgot in the forging of the ur-ship Spirk - Gene Roddenberry started it. Remember, Vulcan, its culture and language, was invented in its entirety by Gene. So he had complete control of the entire language. So what does he do? He invents a word, for a concept; a concept for a type of Vulcan relationship. He calls it " T'hy'la ". Which means friend/lover/brother. And has Spock name Kirk as his t'hy'la. So when everyone jumps and yells "see???". He claps back with a little mini episode where Kirk tells everyone that he mentioned that crazy theory to Spock, who says nothing but quirks his famous eyebrow, and then Kirk tells the reader, not that he isn't in love with his First Officer, not that they have never been sexual with each other, but that he, Kirk, has had his most satisfying sexual relationships with that "creature call woman". Now besides the totally off-putting way Gene wrote Kirk's rebuttal to the rumors of his off-screen love life with Spock, that's not a denial, it's a rambling distraction from answering the question, one that was so disingenuous, it only convinced the fans even more that they were a couple, an item, sort of like poor Liberace in a televised interview, telling everyone that he's single, because he hasn't "met the right girl yet". And it wasn't the queer audience that discovered Kirk/Spock...to a woman, they were all primarily straight hetero women, who liked the show, but saw the obvious chemistry, saw the derth of on-screen romantic relationships, except for the girl of the week, that they couldn't stand it anymore. So they started writing fanfiction and fan 'zines and fan clubs and laid the foundation for every fandom thereafter.
I don't know why you went with the weird-sounding "Spirk", when you could have gone with Kock...
I'm guessing because of censorship of RUclips
I thought the exact same thing when he said "Spirk."
Sulu and Chekhov could’ve been Sukhov
Because the 'weird-sounding' Spirk has been what Kirk/Spock slash fiction has been called since the late 1960s. He didn't invent the word :-)
Well played... in a Shakespearian sort of way....
How did you resist reminding us that Data is "fully functional" and "programmed in multiple techniques"?
Literally came here to say this.
I also like how Data was attempting to spur sexual desire by watching porn in Descent
@@tobiasfunke6284WHAT?? WHEN???
When DS9 was originally on the air I didn't notice any undertones between Bashir and Garak. Admittedly I was a lot younger and didn't notice anything like that on any show. Now that I'm older and have come out myself I'll watch a Bashir/Garak episode and I'm practically yelling at the screen
"Bashir stop chasing after Dax. It's creepy and she isn't into you. Go after Garak he obviously wants you."
Oh, it screamed at me from the initial introduction! I've always simply loved the interaction between those two.
I never noticed it in my youth either, but I recently was rewatching DS9 for the first time in years and was positively gobsmacked by how blatantly unsubtle it was and how obliviously naïve the younger me must have been to have missed it. It's not just in the dialogue, but in the action, specifically just how handsy Garak tends to be with Bashir.
ridiculous
Meanwhile my asexual ass just thought they were bro’s 😂
I only watched it a few months ago (wasn't born in the 90s lol), but I didn't really see it with Garak and Julian. Jadzia, though....in fact, the Trill race as a whole. It seemed like a way to incorporate it into the show without outright putting it in the show. Am I making sense?
One slight note:
Spirk didn't grow JUST from the LGBT+ community looking for non-hetero. A lot of it was pioneered by hetero women who wanted to add some romance into the series but felt limited by the lack of well-rounded female characters (especially among kirks "conquests"). Instead of making OC's (100% mine do not steal) they started extrapolating one of the only deep emotional relationships on-screen. It's basically the precursor to YAOI.
These are the women that launched the letter-writing campaign to get it picked up again. and get the movies made They're the ones that published zines and organized fan conventions.
Without shippers - trek wouldn't exist at all. Hell, I also love pointing out to sexist asshats that it only exists because of women PERIOD - Lucielle Ball and Whoopie Goldberg were instrumental in keeping ToS and TNG on air.
Actually you are speaking the truth and I do know so because I was one of them those young ladies in the 1970s. ❤🎉
I’ve been a Trekkie since the beginning. We used to call Spirk “slash fiction” for Kirk/Spock. How soon we forget.
Kirk/Spock was the OG slash fiction.
The Slash Fiction Fanclub is a common trope in anime, with girls obsessed with boy/boy being a big enough thing that an entire series was written about one who refuses to get a real boyfriend because she's happier with her ships. :D
Who remembers Laura Godwin, from the AOL ST:TOS boards?
@@ChrisMaxfieldActs Laura Godwin? Who’s that?
Laura and I exchanged email when I was writing Spirk; she had a website which had all kinds of her own proofs of the relationship. I myself saw them as bondmates in the Vulcan manner. I even wound up correcting a small error she made in Amok Time. I often wonder what happened to her.
Wait… so Kirk faked his “little death”. I thought Spock had no ego to bruise.
lmao
Brilliant
Tu es hilarant!
For the kill to feel real and actually stop the Pon Farr, Kirk had to make Spock work for it.
Actually, he didn't. It was all McCoy. T'Pau allowed McCoy to give Kirk an injection of Tri-ox compound to help him breathe the thin Vulcan air. McCoy had appealed to her sense of fairness, saying something like, "If the heat doesn't kill him, the thin air will." Then, instead of Tri-ox, McCoy gave Kirk something to knock him out. When Kirk appeared dead, Spock stopped trying to kill him.
Wouldn't this specifically be Starshipping? :P
Certainly that would have been an Enterprising title.
This is going to be one warped thread.
Don’t let it phase you.
“Phasers set to STUNNING!!”
I'm not sure Geordie was ever interested in women for real. The most significant "romantic" attachment he's shown to have in the show is with Leah Brahms - a celebrity (as far as Geordie is concerned) who he idolizes and treats as if he knows personally. She's like his Lady Gaga/Liza Minelli/Bea Arthur.
Also maybe wouldn't be so clueless with men.
Levar Burton said it in an interview, you can find it here on YT. Geordie was written to be gay! But at some point, the writers were like "Maybe its to much, gay, black and blind...well we cant change black and blind anymore so lets drop the gay part"
The Great Bird of the Galaxy has stated that he created LaForge's character as a closeted gay man, who does not "know who he is". Sad for the character.
@@kabobawsome that makes so much sense for his character, and maybe what he had with data was more queerplatonic than just friendship.
Thank you for such a sweet take on shipping culture. A lot of people who comment get fixated on the more extreme aspects of it (transgressive ships or toxic shipping wars) but it's nice to see a reviewer recognize that shipping can be a sweet way to enjoy characters in LGBTQ relationships. As a lesbian, I like to imagine parallel worlds where my favorite characters share my orientation. Not canon and I don't need the creators to bend to my wishes, but it makes the shows and stories more enjoyable for me.
Steve manages to take a sweet, positive interpretation of most things. It's one of the things I love most about his content.
☺️
Totally agree.
I'm giving Mackie the benefit of the doubt that, as an actor, he believes that people are "misinterpreting" his intended performance of a man in a non-sexual but still intimate friendship with another man. What he seems to be failing to see is that it doesn't matter what the original intent was, it's OK for people to see something other than what the creators imagined with their fictional characters. In our sister sci-fi franchise, Mark Hamill has famously said that he didn't intentionally play Luke Skywalker as a gay or queer character, but if that's how some fans envision him, then of course he is. Steve's simple observation that fictional characters are not actual people, they can be whatever someone wants or needs for them to be, is a lesson that would singlehandedly detoxify the fandom if everyone were capable of taking it to heart.
I think Mackie's quote is saying that some shippers are shipping just to be bandwagon jumpers. So there's an air of being not genuine. And bandwagon jumping is the overreaction he's referring to. Or I'm reading too much into this.
That being said, Steve's remark to detoxify really does need to be taken to heart.
I certainly feel that, once an artist publishes their work, it becomes the property of the audience.
Mackie's quote strikes me, hard, as a response to accusations of queer baiting... which he might be missing some of the point of (I haven't looked into why that's come up and am myself a clueless dweeb on such), but I can see how that might frustrate him as a reaction to what he sees as an important representation of male friendship.
I am going to hunt down the context, because if queer baiting was specifically brought up, it's a mistake to not include that context, because that is *not* a neutral question about shipping at that point.
@@bryanv1681
That's a risk no matter what you create or why. The interpretation of the audience isn't any less valid than the author's intent. One does not need to overwrite the other, even special circumstances like "death of the author" don't erase the original creative vision (rather people just agree to move forward with another so that a beloved work does not end due to or become marred by the opinions or actions of someone who created the work).
@@bryanv1681 "Because otherwise what's the point of trying to create art with any intent if the consumers can just overwrite what you're saying?"
Sorry, you do not understand art. Granted, many artists don't either. The "consumers" (Jesus Christ) making their on reading has been part of art since the dawn of humanity, complaining about that is just... Seriously, you don't need to be an art graduate, this should be primary school art class level.
"DS9 is like a key party attended exclusively by coked-up swingers who hate each other" is the most accurate description of that shipping community I have ever heard. Magnificent! also, I've got a degree in lit analysis and I love bringing that into my fandoms. Intention only goes so far when faced with interpritation, and academic papers have been written on contextualizing less than what is given in some Star Trek ships. All I'm saying is if I can convince an academic journal to publish a paper on multiple layered meanings and interpretations of the word "strange" in line 8 of some poem about a woman Zeus abused, then you can ship whoever you god damn want. Any textual evidence is evidence enough, anything can be considered a valid interpriation! SPRIK FOR LIFE!
I’m sorry if this sounds ignorant, but, what sort of benefits have you gained by having said degree in literary analysis? I am 30, finally starting college soon (I’ve been a paralegal for 10 or so years instead) and am trying to figure out what I want to study. I write every day, from journaling to prose to poetry to thought pieces/essays. I have always wondered if I could make a career out of one of my passions, of which I would certainly consider writing in that regard. Any info you can provide would be very much appreciated!
@@veespa_ Honestly, it helps teach you how to break down the layers in text form what's on the page to the real world influence that helped create it like biases, beliefs, and real life cultures, as well as teach you how to defended and support interpretations (some times contradictory) of a work/ passage/ quote, etc. I do Lectures on Fandom and Fanfiction as part of my Job as a youth librarian and I know a lot of people that make writing about or lecturing on niche topics (example: one of my coworkers does a crypts of new England lecture she gets hired to give) there jobs. Anyone can become an expert in anything, my undergrad adviser was a foremost expert on Jane Austen and it was her whole career. You don't need the credentials but it really helps to take classes that expand and deconstruct how you consume and engage with media if you want to understand poetry, lit, or even your own righting on a more surface level. P.s sorry this comment is so late, hope schools going well and your still writing!!!!
What about 'Shore Leave' when Kirk thinks its Spock giving him a back massage? He seemed disappointed when he found out it was a Yeoman.
he was scare of the me-too movement.
😂😂
@@danielepps8729 bad joke
Ah yes, how could we forget Dig It In There Mister Spock
Yeoman finally got Kirk in the bed
I never non-ironically shipped until i saw that episode from Voyager where Tom Paris and Harry Kim are in jail together. It's literally the most homoerotic thing I've seen in the entire franchise.
"The Chute" is the one I assume you're talking about? Yeah, I can see it. I absolutely love the final scene.
"Tom, listen to me. I… I almost killed you."
"What are you saying? You're the one that kept me alive."
"I was ready to hit you with the pipe. Don't you remember?"
"You want to know what I remember? Someone saying 'This man is my friend. Nobody touches him.' I'll remember that for a long time."
@@scaper8 yeah, and then there's also the bit when they're first in prison where Paris and another inmate have some kind of dispute which invariably seems like they're fighting over Kim. That plus the role reversal where Tom is quickly turned into the helpless one due to injury makes it seem like fanfic. (I have to assums the writers themselves saw it, because it has a blatant "oh damn they seem kind of gay, better have an obligatory delaney sisters reference) while they are canoodling).
Came here to say this! And much like Garashir, the actors ship Kimris too.
Glad I’m not the only one that realised this ship could possibly be a ship before and after this episode
@@pax2009 I was expecting mention of Kimris
Wait is no one else shipping Tilly and Michael? Like they are every lesbian couple I know, and I personally find it hilarious that the show keeps trying to make Michael straight. (Even though every character in Star Trek is bi until proven otherwise, come at me)
Accurate (hilariously accurate)
Right? I was surprised when it wasn't mentioned. I don't ship Michael and Georgiou. Maybe Micheal had feelings for HER captain, but definitely not the mirror world one. She can't stand her. Micheal and Tilly are perfect, especially after Micheal's disastrous "relationship" with Ash. Gag me with a spoon.
I fully support this.
All thumbs up for Burnly or Tiham.
If Tilly remains as XO under Burnham then they better get a lot of screen time.
Even more adorable given that Michael started off not exactly liking being bunked with Tilly.
There's also the fact that canonically, Cardasian necks are erroneous zones, like Ferengi ears. Meaning that when Garak stood up to leave and gave the "So glad to have made such an interesting new friend today", grabbing Juline's shoulders, he was doing the Cardasian equivalent of grabbing his ass
I utterly adore "Our Man Bashir"! Given that Garak's character owes no small amount to the cynical, gritty spies of John Le Carre's novels like "Tinker, *Tailor* (helloooo?), Soldier, Spy", it was great fun and very clever to have him walk into one of the adolescent omnipotence fantasies that are James Bond stories (and that so well reflect Bshir's juvenile cockiness)... # Garashir4eva
Hell yes! Very well put :)
Garek and Bashir have some of the best exchanges in Trek. Like when Garek tells Bashir everything he said was true "especially the lies." I know Steve has gone into this in a previous video but he was absolutely right. And the two men who had the most to lose from their secrets leaking, who had constantly to play spy games and deal in innuendo and subterfuge, were also the two who spoke the most truths no one else had the courage to admit.
Imagine how happy they both would be if in the end they'd got together. They were cursed in their heterosexual love life, but they understood each other in a way no one else ever could. Don't they deserve to be happy? :)
Before watching the video I wanted to comment saying that Enterprise is probably the most homoerotic series of Star Trek. There's a very Top Gun episode where Captain Archer & Trip play sweaty shirtless team sports while bonding with another group of sweaty macho shirtless aliens who are accused of being terrorists.
Then they have to barely-survive in the desert :)
"The only thing to keep Spock from jumping Kirk's bones right there is... Bones is right there." ROTFLMAO - excellent, Steve. :-D As a Gay man myself, I could never get into anyone in Star Trek, but this might be due to the fact I started watching it from episode one in 1966 when I was 5 years old. LOL
I've been thinking about you this week because I started rewatching your favorite Trek series...Voyager. :-D I'm now at the end of the 3rd season, and a 'spatial anomaly" appears knocking the warp drive offline so Voyager couldn't pull away. (surprise!) Then Tom Paris goes out in a shuttle when another anomaly appears, but this time all the transporters go offline, but the engines are working perfectly. (facepalm!) Janeway screams, "get any transporter lock on Tom!" to which Belanna screams, "I can't connect to any of them!" (another massive FACEPALM!!)
It was at this moment I realized I've seen several episodes like this recently during my rewatch binge, and indeed, there are MANY in Voyager, all which become painfully apparent when watching so many episodes back-to-back. (sigh!)
You've pointed out this series "flaw" many times, and I had a good belly chuckle think about you yesterday. Just had to tell you so. :-D
So, when can we expect Steve and Jason to do a live reading of their own fanfic "'shipping" of their characters from The Ensign's Log?
"Let him take off the training wheels!" I'm dead
Regarding Garak's sexuality; I got a very asexual vibe from his performance, and I think that romantic ambiguity really served to enhance Garak's mystery. That said, I'm not opposed to the idea of Garashir (or, as it should be, Bashrak) it's just not the interpretation that works for me!
I didn't get the idea that Garak was romantically interested in Ziyal, either. I'm sure he cared for her, but he seemed more interested in *her* interest in him. Even when he stood by her dead body, and Kira said "she loved you" he replied with "I could never figure out why" rather than "and I loved her."
I agree that Garak never seemed romantically interested in Ziyal but I never got asexual from him. He seems very much open to whatever and he definitely finds Julian attractive. That said - it could all be acting and I suspect, to an extent, he might not know himself what he really wants any more, after a life spent calculating and lying. I love that you got that from him though! I adore how much is in Trek for all of us. My asexual icon is Weyoun :D
@@TheHopperUK It's a testament to how well conceived the character was, and how brilliantly he was portrayed, that so much of his personality is open to interpretation; how much is genuine and how much is obfuscation.
It's things like this that make DS9 my all time favourite TV show.
@@sarahscott5305 Absolutely agreed!
Garak had a very stern overbearing father who made him into a habitual liar through physical and emotional abuse/torture... I can see how a closeted individual might relate to this.
Apparently, Alan Robinson and Alexander Siddiqui both started playing their guys as well, very interested, and the writers also thought that this would be one of the first, if not the first, gay pairings around, but Berman and the other executives freaked out and demanded that the boys both get straight girlfriends or at least go after them...
Now, during Covid, those two actors got together and did a live action fanfic, reprising Garak and Bashir. .. as husbands...as in happily married to each other for lo! these many years. It's fantastic!!!
It's on RUclips look it up!
I really appreciate this video I really just find it nice to see a straight guy not weirded out by these ships and able to understand why people like them and find them sweet
Raffi/Seven ship is clearly Raven. I mean, Seven's ship literally was The Raven.
Yup, I tried to make "Raven" a thing, but it didn't catch on!
Well done!👏👏
However I do disagree with criticizing Mackie's comments, just because I do believe he was basically put in a no-win scenario with that question, either you piss off your bosses at Disney and risk your career by acknowledging fan ships (something disney kind of hates to do), or you try and tread a line of "no homo" and I think he took the latter in that case. I think he just phrased it really, really badly.
Kind of agree. I only know of the interview from this very video, and I didn't watch _Falcon and the Winter Soldier_ (I probably will at some point, but I just haven't gotten around to it), but it sounds an awful lot like someone trying to weasel out if a question and bungling it terribly.
I kind of end up in the same position because part of why people react to so much, especially to that show, is the writers themselves and the show actually did a lot. Like we had one of the lead writers responding to somebody pointing out wait a second when Bucky is talking about online dating he makes a reference that can only be about looking up dudes and said writer responded wait and see. (And then no follow up in the show, so thanks on telling people to wait for nothing.)
If you get told to wait and see for decades and decades, eventually you're going to go How about instead you either just do stuff or stop trying to have your cake and eat it too. And while on one hand I have a lot of sympathy especially for an actor getting put in a no-win situation like this I also feel for fans who are tired of being gaslighted by others, so they're maybe not going to be the kindest to this response.
Also I really feel like the argument about can't guys just be friends is just weaponized too much exclusively against hey stop trying to make *anything* gay because heaven forbid everything not be straight, instead of much actual concern about hey let's normalize male friendships that are different. Because you really don't see the same argument pop up about hey why can't a man and a woman infection just be friends without it being a romantic thing. And when that keeps being the case it feels like it's actually about gayness instead of about friendship.
@@scaper8 oh it definitely is, and then it got posted as like the selective quote to generate controversy i think he just got caught off guard by the question
He should have just said something short like: People have always interpreted works of fiction in different ways.
Mostly punts the question without bringing controversy. Instead he put out a word salad that makes him look like a homophobe...
What are you talking about? Evans and Stan have both acknowledged Stucky at one point and Daisy Ridley, Oscar Isaac, and John Boyega openly acknowledge that FinnPoe should've been canon, and have said so multiple times.
K/S fanfic was among the first Trek fanfic and probably inspired some of the first Trek fanzines and powered some of the most intense Trek fandom back in the ‘70s. Hence the term “slash”.
The odd thing about it is, it was virtually all written by women, not by gay men, and women were also the target audience. There was more than a little controversy about this among gay Trek fans back in the day - kind of a feeling that someone else was presuming to tell their stories.
This made the arrival of Garak on DS9 extra exciting, since here was clearly a character being played as gay and flirting with another man. Subtext became text, and the covert more overt. It’s unfortunate the producers didn’t have the balls to let it play out, even just covertly and not officially acknowledged.
I'm an oblivious cis-dude, but my brother came out 20 years ago, so I've been an ally for a long time. I was still today-years-old before I ever even considered that Garak was gay. I think they could have let it play out. We cis-folk would not have picked up.
“Let him get the training wheels off before you get him out there trying stunts.” This statement encapsulates why I subscribe to your channel. Can’t always align with your pov but that devilish humor…
So I wanted to give some critique as a bisexual woman who has had lesbian relationships.
First of all, thank you for bringing this conversation to your audience. From some of the commentary I've seen, it seems like you were able to introduce some wonderful concepts to your viewers, and I really appreciate that.
That being said, I wanted to bring some awareness to how you handled talking about relationships between women in your video, namely with Crusher/Troi and Janeway/SevenofNine.
The whole point of your conversation centered about how LGBTQIA+ persons were able to create representation for themselves through fanfic, but you cast the conversation about the lesbian relationships through your eyes as a cis straight man rather than how lesbians who have these ships would view them. At least for me, it is the same as those with gay ships finding representation, its seeing the dynamics of the actual relationship on screen, and translating that into intimacy and closeness.
A lot of times there's this experience that we as women who love other women are seen by straight cis men as objects that are sexy together for their pleasure. A really easy example of this is porn. The way that lesbian women interact sexually is nothing like how women in porn are seen, which literally is filmed through the lense of bringing enjoyment to men.
A lot of my lesbian friends have had experiences where they were propositioned by men in front of their girlfriends, and when they tell the men they have absolutely no interest, they get offended that a woman would have no interest in a man.
So I just have this very deep discomfort with you talking about wlw relationships not for what they are, like Troy and Crusher being there for each other and emotionally holding each other up, even when they're slapped together with some sort of romantic interest for an episode. For me, there was always something much more meaningful in how Crusher and Troy truthfully loved and supported each other when their relationships with men in the series was always so dry and forced to me.
Not to mention the relationship between Michael and Tilly in Discovery! I loved their dynamic and how Tilly was able to pull Michael out of her shell when she first arrived.
But TL;DR. Thank you for bringing this to your audience, but is very destructive to women in the lgbtqia+ community when you cast their relationships through your experiences as a straight cis male rather than the intention of this video, which was to show how being able to create representation for yourself when there are no good examples of it in the world is so empowering. I hope that you can continue to learn more about the community, and help build us up an an ally!!
That's a very good point, I sort of thought he was playing it as a joke in the video about how typically men act this way but maybe he was being serious about his comments on J7 on Crusher/Troi
I don't usually comment, but I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed your video! You're really objective and open-minded and it's always a pleasure to listen to your analyses. And also, I appreciate the subtitles, as English is not my first language and I usually struggle to understand everything without them. Thank you!
Never thought of Chekov and Sulu before.
I wonder what Old Man Heinlein would make of the concept of "grok(ing) Spock in the biblical sense" 😂🤣😅🤣 You're a poet, Steve!
🏆 I’ve chosen this video as my personal winner of the “Delightfully Surprising Pride Month Ally Content Choice” award!
As a lesbian and sci-fi enthusiast who can’t help but LOVE gay ships, your straight dude non-shipper self giving genuine (albeit sometimes awkward) support for them in this video was … appreciated 😂
On behalf of the possible DOZEN of over 30 lesbian trek nerds subbed to you, Thanks Steve for making this video! 😂
Oh, two dozen at least! ;)
I'm all for shipping mostly because it takes nothing away from me and my enjoyment of the show. As a straight white dude, I never really had to dig for representation so I'm glad everyone can get some.
The closest thing I do to shipping is to revel in non-superficial men's friendship. Star Trek and LotR offer plenty of what would generally be viewed as "manly men" being gentle, soft-spoken and affectionate, not only to their partners but to their friends, without the fear of being label as lesser (or as the cavemen would say, "gay").
I guess it really shows how patriarchy has affected men too when what you try to find out in movies and entertainment is meaningful friendships and genuine feelings between friends.
I like to think, if we treat Kirk and Spock as a couple, it implies that Kirk and Bones were also once a couple. Imagine Kirk and Bones dated when they were young and have become the exes that grew into a friendship. Bones is that ex that Kirk trusts and keeps as a confidant. Bones, might still have feelings for Kirk, but he is a professional, and keeps it to himself. However, when Kirk and Spock become a couple, Bones can't help but feel at least some animosity towards Spock. That animosity comes out as the occasional jab at Spock's physiology. Spock, being logical understands where Bones animosity comes from, but also realizes that Kirk is with Spock now, and there is no logical reason to take it personally.
Hey, well Spocked... I mean, spotted!
I never even thought of Scotty Baks before ... but it is right there.
I've been a shipper since the very first time I watched an X-files episode. For me it's just a bit of fun. I don't need my ships to be canon, but I understand why some people do. I think there's a clear issue with LGBTQIA+ representation, but there's more to it than that. The way, as an example, women are portrayed in the original Star Trek series is... less than ideal. They often only, apart from Uhura, Nurse Chapel and a few others, serve a eye candy, and/ or romantic interests for the male characters. It's hard for me to ship hetero couples on TOS without feeling iffy about it, especially shipping Kirk with a woman gives me the heebie jeebies because of how he's often seen leering at them on the series. I wouldn't want to be a woman and date Kirk. Shipping for me is most fun when the charaters have an equeal relationship. (Yes, I know Spock is Jim's subordinate, but Spock could literally break him in half if he wanted to.)
This problem with female characters being rather flat and uninteresting, while male character are fleshed and well rounded is a common problem in popular media, and I think that's is partly why there's so much same gender shipping.
God, do I agree. I was searching for some Walking Dead Michonne/Rick fanfic, and I couldn't find too much character driven stories. And than I realized, yeah, I'd have a hard time writing that, too, since she is an amazing character - but other than some missjudgements, what's really going on with her other than her mother-thing? She has a lot of great moments, but there isn't really any depth to her - compared to others in the same show, that is. I haven't read the comics, and I didn't spend much time on any research, but in the TV show, the women are amazing, strong, fighters, as they have to be, and make mistakes at times - but they don't HAVE mistakes, they just let one strenght get in the way of another, in a way. And that is comparetively modern and with at least some amount of understanding for how humans work. -.- I love that we don't serve eyecandy-must-gasp points any longer (mostly), but now I'm a bit at a loss as to how to connect to the more modern type of can-do-badass types that are around - I'm most certainly not one. Different priorities, emotions, thoughts, all that can conflict, leads to messing up while still winning, making mistakes while doing the right thing, that sort of stuff that makes stories interesting - and female characterizations still lack that way to often. They usually don't even get too much of a story for any of that, no inner perspective, even in lead roles. Like, being female is to not being allowed to mess up or have more than one inner motive at any given time. -.- Kirk did, in the sixties, disobeying rules to safe Spock, loving the Enterprise but loving some of the people around him and some of the most important attributes of himself more, willing to, in the end, sacrifice one thing over another. Women still don't get much of that complexity, even while being the main protagonist. It's annoying. So, I'm off to read another Kirk/Spock story, then.
In shipping I think there’s a very difficult line to place between the importance of representation and importance of not expanding fetishization and toxic masculinity
Sulu and Chekhov isn’t called Sukhov?
missed opportunity
The single most romantic thing I've ever seen in Star Trek: The Motion Picture. Spock recovering in sickbay, him and Kirk grasping hands (which is established canon as how vulcans kiss), talking about this simple feeling.🥰🏳️🌈
Julian after meeting Garak acts exactly like a baby queer who has a crush but doesn't yet *realize* why they are suddenly intensely drawn to and fixated on this person. I think this is an experience a lot of us go through in our queer awakenings - it's so cute and relatable! From how I see it, Julian initially seems to have that kind of reaction but eventually I think he comes to terms with it and his flirting style seems to grow more intentional in time.
I was surprised you missed the episode of Voyager that is the epitome of being "the episode" for one gay ship. "The Chute" is a classic for those who ship Harry Kim and Tom Paris.
"The only thing that keeps him from. Jumping Kirk's bones right there is the fact that Bones is right there"
Love it
Shipping is such a... Strange subject to me.
Like, I DO ship, I have my own personal preferential pairings in multiple series. However, I am incredibly analytic in my approach to characters so I prefer my ships to have more than a handful of singular moments. Heck, I'll admit that my own conditions for accepting a pair may be completely arbitrary. Unfortunately, most of the time when I see a ship as 'nonsensical,' they end up being a ship that goes against the established or implied sexuality of the character. Of course there's a lot of ambiguous characters since those moments just don't exist and I'm more able to accept whatever as long as I can identify the character chemistry. On a side note I take massive issue with those who obsess over ships that were they exist would be MASSIVELY problematic via abuse or otherwise. Dysfunctional relationships are not 'cool,' or, 'cute,' especially ones where the health of at least one of those involved would be compromised because at least one of the two actually hates the other.
Of course, if this comments paints me as close minded at the end of the day then that perhaps both is and is not my intention. I am willing to let my opinions be checked because I want to be a better individual myself.
It would be helpful if you provided examples of which ships you approve and which you don't.
I'm also terribly nervous about sharing my opinions in the first place thanks to anxiety so yay.
@@grumpyotter I mainly did not give any examples as I don't really have any that relate to the series used as the vehicle for the discussion. Star Trek is one of the handful I don't ship in myself. However if I will try my best to explain some examples from other series I enjoy.
Disapprove: Deku & Bakugo from My Hero Academia. Falls squarely under the category of, 'at least of of the two characters hates the other with a passion and any resulting intimacy would be abusive and toxic,' which to my further dismay is presented as a selling point in a large enough portion of artistic depiction from the fanbase.
Goku & Caulifla from Dragon Ball Super. The idea that Goku, a happily married man, would ditch his wife on a whim for a girl from another universe that he barely knows-who is also a great deal younger than him. Just not under age, thankfully-all because they fought each other once and had fun, is just... I don't resonate with it.
Approve (admittedly harder because I approve of a lot, but then my choices of preference are slim.):
Marnie & Protagonist from Pokemon Sword and Shield. Evidence-wise, it's on the weaker side for me. Though I still enjoy it. Having played the game myself and seeing how Marnie interacts with you despite your silence, I can't help but suspect. Additionally because you can be boy or girl, if the ship were true it technically makes her bi(?).
I can't really think of another approved one that I want to specifically mention, there's so many. You get the idea, yeah?
While it was never meant to be put online by the creator, the Kirk/Spock NIN video is...👌
I can, in fact, imagine those two absolutely going to town on each other. It makes me happy.
One thing I'd like to point out is that in star trek the Multiverse exists making every ship valid because although in the universe we see these characters didn't get together theirs a universe where seven way is valid a universe where odo and quark hook up. Star trek is truly a place of acceptance and maybe one day we'll see these universes were our favourite ships get together
I definitely picked up on Garak trying to seduce Bashir, but I obliviously assumed it to be the non-sexual kind of seduction. More like winning him over because he's naive and can be turned into Garak's advocate. Now that I've actually typed that out... I realize that the two are not mutually exclusive.
Garashir is so unofficially canon both actors were and still are confirming it
I love Garek & Bashir. I was so happy to be on the zoom during these moments.
Star Trek is all about the love of the fans & dedication of the cast & crew.
Love Wins
Amazing video! And, coming from someone who's bisexual, please don't think that just because you're not LGBT yourself that you're ignorant, doing your research and actually trying is the most important thing by far and it's clear you've done plenty of both! If this video is any indication, the thoughtfulness and general mindset with which you treat these topics is probably just about as good as most gay folks I know. We need more people like you!
Yeah.....that cut screen....when the captain went to talk to Spock.....when he was Amok..
Now that was a pain in the...end 😆
Kirk stated that Spock's soul was his responsibility, as much as his own. Gene created the word t'hy'la for Kirk and Spock, the definition of which includes 'lover'. So. Yeah, it's got its hints and its foundations. On the Garak/Bashir front the actors performed a play at cons where they declared their love for each other. I live in the hope that one day a Trek series will make them canon. Cause in my mind there's no way Bashir didn't go hunt Garak down one day and set up home.
Omg! I'm so stunned and happy that you mentioned two of my ships - Garashir and Qcard. Though, Steve, the way you talked about Garashir, it does sound like you ship it.
Another top ship is TuckReed. But that's just me. It's good to see a positive view on shippers, we tend to be mocked a lot in my experience. Cant wait for the Qcard episode!
Bashir and Garak it was kinda canon... Sadly it was dropped and Garak was paired with the daughter of Dukat.
See, but I never got 'romantic' vibes from Ziyal and Garak. I'm sure he cared about her, probably even loved her, but he seemed more driven by his fascination of her attraction towards him.
@@sarahscott5305 yeah, it was a sort of "romantic friendship" with Ziyal and it had a very tragic end.
@@sarahscott5305 Same. I see them as like... a kid having a crush on their English teacher, or some similarly unattainable older dude. I'm glad Andrew Robinson plays Garak as slightly uncomfortable with it (his panicked face when she kisses him comes to mind) , rather than jumping into it like "oh we're doing this now!! great garak's got a girlfriend" . Eternally grateful for Andy, imagine if some other actor had played Garak. IMAGINE STRAIGHT GARAK. *shudders*
Given I'm very lesbian I naturally gravitate towards the women pairings, but I've always held a soft spot for Data/LaForge partly because of their roles as the engineering / 'get it done' sciencey types but also because of one thing that gets skimmed over alot; They share some quite intimate moments in android terms, like where someone will talk about data in non-human terms and Geordi pulls them up on it, or when data has an issue and Geordi, being the engineer, is the one to diagnose him and hook him up to the computer. There's this scene one time when he removes his head section to reveal all the blinkey lights and you can see Geordi sort of mesmerised but also taken aback because who else gets to see him this way? In a uniquely vulnerable position?
Liked the video a lot. English is not my first language so I had to concentrate not to think of starships when he said ships. “There are a lot of ships on DS9” well duh. 😂
I don't understand exactly where Mackie is coming from, but I can only imagine having a legion of people make fan art in your likeness has to change your perspective on shipping.
I read his comments more along the lines of "Don't let people queerbait you into buying or supporting things you would never normally support". But he could have also said something like: They are just friends that are as close as brothers. Because Jesus, I have friends that I love more than my brother, and I'm a happily married cisgender heterosexual man. But I still tell my friend that I love him, because I do. Tell people, and show people, how you feel, regardless of what some stupid "be a man" toxic-John Wayne crap your repressed dad told you to do.
He was a bit wordy and over-explained. I think he wanted to say, the two dudes are just really close friends who care about each other, and that does not mean they are romantically or sexually attracted/involved. There are different types of love. I don't like this thing that's coming up more and more recently, where anyone that even remotely cares about someone else MUST want to bang them. His statement makes perfect sense to me. You can be the closest friends in the world, even closer than some "lovers", while having zero romantic or sexual interest. It can make friends sort of like family. Not relegated to guys etiher...two girls can be incredibly close friends, who care about and love each other like family, while both of them are straight with zero sexual interest in each other. The "oh, they care about each other, they MUST want to bang" thing these 'shippers' often say makes me want to gag sometimes, it's insulting to imply that you would only care about someone because you're sexually interested.
@@StormsparkPegasus I think he was also trying to allude to the root of why there is practically no representation in the MCU. The corporate overlords at Disney would say there are strategic reasons not to just throw it out there, but what they really mean is 'We're more interested in appeasing China'.
Chinese $$$'s are worth more to them than the Pink Pound ever will be, so they give us lip service.
@@StormsparkPegasus "Waaahhh gays want representation waaahhhh" Fuck off.
Shippers are wrong. Spock/Kirk is not valid. Spock/Bones is the only REAL ship.
Gees and I thought Quodo had some hate sex!
@@KayleighBourquin The sexual tension in every scene is astounding. Bones could swoop in for a kiss any minute.
You know Bashir is a bratty sub that Garak just loves to torture in the most loving way possible.
What a lovely homage to the truth that people who find meaning in art become artists themselves.
I was very touched by that sweet little scene between Garak and Bashir. I didn't interpret it that way when I watched the show; Garak always seemed to play his sexuality close to the vest as he did so many other things, but given that precise ambiguity I can absolutely see how he could go all sorts of ways.
Thanks for educating me on shipping - that was fun!
I remember reading in a novelization that when asked about the rumors based on his relationship with Spock answered something like: what's a bit anoying in that rumor is not the nature or orientation of the implied relationship, but that it implies that i´m dumb enough to choose a sexual partner that has urges only once every seven years"
I agree with you on a lot of this, however I do think the point about people feeding too much into a relationship to make it something it isn't is a valid point. However this normally doesn't come from the groups who are underrepresented themselves but comes from Media interpretation of what does group saying and normally other organisations Muddying the waters.
I recently done some research into this with regard to the Apu character from The Simpsons and all the stuff that has come up around that. You look at any article which talks about the withdrawal of that character from the show it very rarely, Echoes the sentiment behind why the character was called out to begin with.
Most of the Indian people asked about the character we're not concerned about the fact that he was played by a white actor for example and understood that the show comprised of a cast that did several impressions.
The problem really with apu was that he was one of the only stereotypical benchmarks for American Indians on TV for the last 30 years.
This wasn't helped with the show and there is an argument to be made especially in our times for a show such as The Simpsons to have a more diverse writing team because a lot of the things that were acceptable back in 90s just simply wouldn't fly today as we have moved on.
As I am registered blind I probably fall into one of those groups being disabled who are not represented and when that particular subgroup are represented they don't necessarily reflect that subgroup because the characters are written by people with no direct understanding.
It's not just a search for representation either because we are lucky enough to start to see that representation on screen (yay for Paul/ Hugh). At least for me it is the search for queer relations that feel fully formed and well rounded. Much like how women often cannot find realistic female characters queer relationships in media are often somewhat one-dimensional.
Any representation is a start, good represenation we're still writing for ourselves.
THANK YOU! I never saw Kirk/Spock as a thing, but, as you said, it is certainly a possible fan interpretation. When my same-sex partner and I were neck-deep in Star Wars fan fiction, we wrote a gay relationship between Admiral Piett and an empath, our own character. Lucasfilm sent us a cease-and desist letter and we ignored it. Since fan fiction doesn't really infringe on the canon product or cost the commercial company any money, they couldn't apply any legal pressure, and we published our own fanzine, ignoring Lucasfilm. Some other fan editors also published some of our stories. Ken Colley, who played Piett, sent us a letter saying he didn't mind the pairing at all. We later published a huge -- 300 page -- fan novel about Snake Plissken of the Escape movies and our MartyStu ( male Mary Sue ) same-sex lover for him. It's fun and harmless, and I think a creative way to treat a universe we feel invested in as fans. We're now working on Daryl Dixon from _Walking Dead_
This makes sense...Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations should allow for sexual diversity as well.
Also, Mackie said it pretty well, un-cancellable.
But he could have also said that Capt.-winter is just a better ship.
Lol
Great video Steve!
Can't wait for the Picard/Q video you teased. :)
What, no Tilly/Michael pairing?
The friendship between Geordi and Data is one of the most deep in fiction. Imagine having a friend you trust so much you not only divulge your deepest secrets to him, but regularly allow him to perform brain surgery on you. Sometimes even highly experimental brain surgery. And when Geordi's not dinking around with Data's hardware, he's tinkering with software, too. Data often collaborates with Geordi when he's reprogramming himself. He asks Geordi for advise, and tells him what his goals are - what he's thinking. When in doubt, he generally goes along with Geordi's suggestions. I don't know about you but there's probably no one I would let straight up reprogram me!
When Lore wants to corrupt Data he tests him by asking him if he would kill Geordi to get what he wants, and ultimately this demand fails. If you're going to corrupt or brainwash someone, the best test of their new loyalty is to order them to destroy something previously sacred to them. The more sacred the better. Beyond his "feelings" for Tasha, Geordi was the most sacred center of Data's life. He considered many crew members his friends, but Geordi was his closest friend.
Thanks! This is episode opened my eyes and brought on a transformation in my ideas about love and what it means not just for fictional people but for people in my life (including myself).
It seems Roddenberry himself, for all his forward thinking, had a bit of a problem with homosexuality. His reaction to "Killing Time" and demanding it be rewritten is evidence of that.
Ya he's definitely a flawed person. Although the homosexuality thing he did eventually soften his tone. He actually tried to get a gay character for TNG in the 90's but Rick Burhman was absolutely against it.
He literally wrote a "no homo" moment for Kirk and Spock into the novelisation of TMP...
Objection at 8:45. TNG is as far as I know the only series before DIS to establish that a character has no interest in a particular gender (Beverly is not attracted to women, main-universe Stamnets and Culber are stated to be exclusively gay), which makes those two less shippable than the others.
Beverly never said she wasn't atra
As a kid, I always saw the Star Trek Original Series on TV, I noticed that Spocks Vulcan Eyebrows has that Queer takeaway to it. Spocks Eyebrow seemed so gender natural, shapely too, as he has eyelids to protect him from the Sun. Also Spock wore Eyeshadow and most of the Cast did wear Eyeshadow. It's was very strange, but Futuristic. I always loved Star Trek because no matter how we are all different, we belonged to the Stars and we all had a purpose in the Federation and Starfleet, and also we can co-exist with the Gorn, Klingons, Romulans, and many aliens.
Just because some have brought up this worry it seems worthwhile to comment, the tendency to turn emotional close same sex relationships into sexual/romantic relationships (ships) in fanfic should not imply that two men (or two women) can not be close emotionally without sex (or romance), they can never "just be friends". Just as the tendency to turn emotionally close opposite sex relationships into sexual/romantic relationships in fanfic should not imply that a man and a woman can never "just be friends". The error in both cases seems very similar. I am very worried about people who can only imagine emotional intimacy in a sexual context, what the heck must their relationship with their parents be like.
While I think both ideas are around, I actually think the "a man and a woman can never just be friends" vibe is actually the way more common one. So it is strange, perhaps even telling, that the sort of worry is mostly brought up for same sex pairings...
I guess one reason I'm not a fan of some gay ships is that its like reinforcing that if guys are close or share feelings than its must hint that they're gay. Like with Frodo and Sam so many people look at that say 'they must be gay' when what the author was going for was to portray the close bonds people form, that sense of camaraderie.
18:06 Voyager ships don't use traditional portmanteau names, they slash the first letters of the last name, eg J/C, P/T/K, J/7. That's were the shipname comes from.
Re: Anthony Mackie.
I'm a gay guy and I'm pretty sure I know what Anthony was trying to say. There's a term in media: "Gay Baiting." It's when the writers/producers of a media franchise do everything in their power to make two characters seem like they're gay without ever actually saying or confirming it. This is the "exploitation" I believe Mackie is referring to. Because media has refused to give queer people meaningful representation, and combine that with the flip side of " 'real' men shouldn't be allowed to express emotion or friendship" and you get this weird state we're in now that queer folk see any sort of emotional attachment between two same sex people as inherently queer, while straight folk see it as "woke" or problematic, or ignore it altogether.
So I see the point he's trying to make. Movies and TV have exploited their gay audiences to the point that it's difficult to depict two men as having a close platonic bond anymore. This isn't blaming audiences but writers and producers.
I personally would like to see more of both. More ACTUAL queer characters, and more platonic healthy same sex friendships. Yes, straight guys need more healthy forms of masculinity depicted in media.
(That said, I do think Bucky is inherently queer coded even if they'll never explicitly state it. Shipping him with Sam does feel weird to me though. Steve/Bucky were the ship, while Sam/Bucky just feels like a consolation prize fans came up with that doesn't really fit Sam's character at all)
Maybe he could've said that instead of a polite version of "why's everything gotta be GAY all the time"
The way I see Amok Time: It’s about how Spock doesn't need to love in the way his culture or biology tells him he needs to. He doesn't need to marry a woman he isn't interested in if he doesn't want to. He's allowed to feel love in whatever way he wants. And it's the love he feels for Kirk and the shock he feels after supposedly killing him is what shakes him out of his haze. And wouldn't that be just that little bit sweeter if it was a romantic love rather than a platonic one?
As someone who has no idea what shipping is outside the importance of logistics and I have no idea what is going on
RelationSHIP
🙂
Shipping comes from the word relationship. To "ship" two (or more) characters together is to posit them in a relationship
Love the Trek Pride shirt, Steve! We can never have too many allies so thanks for showing your support!
(that's assuming you're an ally and not gay which I don't believe you are. If you ARE gay then... well... Thanks for wearing the shirt anyway and you should give me a call LOL)
If I had waited to comment instead of just jumping in at the beginning I would have heard your heterosexual disclaimer so just ignore that last part. LOL
Watching this now, during the second season of ST: SNW, I am very glad that the “yawn” Chock (Spapel?) ship is no longer a yawn. And with all due respect to Majel, she was more iconic as the computer (not that she had a lot of latitude with her characters in the 60’s.)
just started watching the original series and it's so cool to think how it has had such a large impact on all sorts of fan culture, including shipping! thank you also for having closed captions on the video, it makes it much easier for me to process what's said. :)
I go the extra step and ship ships, I'm pretty sure Enterprise D and Voyager got it on once Voyager came back.
Ok so when I first read the title I was all " Scoff, scoff, scoff....no way" At the end I was all " Who's peeling onions in here?" You done good Steve.
I absolutely hate that pop culture remembers Kirk as a quick to violence womanizer rather than the bookish nerd he was on screen who kissed three women ever. One of which was to distract a slaver and another fake kiss to entertain a god who was threatening his crew. There was only one woman for Kirk, and her name was Enterprise
We got a bisexual character as part of the main cast of DS9. Remember Jadzia Dax? She is openly bisexual.
It took me nearly 10 minutes to figure out that "Shipping" is "Relation-shipping"
This is the 1st time a ever hear about Shipping
Perhaps Almasy is a more common name than I know but I can also tell you it's the last name of another popular shipping character: Seifer from Final Fantasy VIII.
6:08 Gotta admit, that smile of Spock slayed me. Then I joined Dr McCoy and nurse Chapel in their giggling corner. XD
Dr Bashir and Garak did have a better chemistry than them being with other women, so that ship sailed so easy for me. It sailed even faster when I learned even the actors got on board.
Regarding the “just good friends”, whether he misinterpreted the question or not, I’m not sure. But I did know some anime “fandoms” “demanded” the authors to make some straight male friends gay canon instead of writing the fanfiction or did the shipping themselves. The authors know their works are entertainment, so it wasn’t like they forbid fans for that. So yeah, maybe some “fandoms” were alittle too enthusiastic?
I love your opening description of DS9. A party of swingers who hate each other.
DS9 is WAY more ship-able than TNG.
V-ger has almost no ship game and Enterprise is even worse.
Then discovery comes along and overcompensates.
I wonder how many actually got "key party."
That "jump his bones" paragraph was very clever! 😁
I laughed at your key part analogy for munch longer then I should have. Thanks for that.
Think you missed 1 dax and Khan when they meet back up years later on ds9 and they are both in female bodies
I think he's concentrating on the "fanon", not what's established as canon (even if it's in past canon) onscreen. Fantastic episode, though, and great catch!
Why can't 2 men be friends without being gay?
I'm glad you didn't mention "Janetay". Chakotay was such a boring, two dimensional character and the Voyager writers kept trying to hook him up with the interesting characters (Seven and Janeway). I would say that Janetay is a more popular ship than JanewayXSeven since the writers of Voyager tried really hard to make Janeway and Seven a mother/daughter dynamic, at least in season 4.
making a video on the same topic and I couldn't resist watching your take. As always you made excellent points. Can I ship myself with you lol
Something that Steve forgot in the forging of the ur-ship Spirk - Gene Roddenberry started it.
Remember, Vulcan, its culture and language, was invented in its entirety by Gene. So he had complete control of the entire language. So what does he do? He invents a word, for a concept; a concept for a type of Vulcan relationship. He calls it " T'hy'la ". Which means friend/lover/brother. And has Spock name Kirk as his t'hy'la.
So when everyone jumps and yells "see???". He claps back with a little mini episode where Kirk tells everyone that he mentioned that crazy theory to Spock, who says nothing but quirks his famous eyebrow, and then Kirk tells the reader, not that he isn't in love with his First Officer, not that they have never been sexual with each other, but that he, Kirk, has had his most satisfying sexual relationships with that "creature call woman". Now besides the totally off-putting way Gene wrote Kirk's rebuttal to the rumors of his off-screen love life with Spock, that's not a denial, it's a rambling distraction from answering the question, one that was so disingenuous, it only convinced the fans even more that they were a couple, an item, sort of like poor Liberace in a televised interview, telling everyone that he's single, because he hasn't "met the right girl yet".
And it wasn't the queer audience that discovered Kirk/Spock...to a woman, they were all primarily straight hetero women, who liked the show, but saw the obvious chemistry, saw the derth of on-screen romantic relationships, except for the girl of the week, that they couldn't stand it anymore. So they started writing fanfiction and fan 'zines and fan clubs and laid the foundation for every fandom thereafter.
As a bisexual man, I felt a connection with O'Brien and Julian.
The relationship between Finn and Poe in star wars was such a missed opportunity
Yeah and finn being a protaganist
Good for Daforge that Data is "fully functional"😮