This was an excellent talk. While I am enjoying all the speakers in this series, this has been the best to date. These others were all very good. This one, however, was excellent.
Very interesting commentary. Suggests the complex interplay between Dante's actual life of writing poetry, his role as a participant in his active pity for the sinners Francesca and Paolo, and perhaps his role in providing the readers, or observers, with deeper understanding of those they meet on this journey or perhaps misleading them into believing things that distort what actually happened in the real story of theie lives. Thanks, Dr. Kim, for asking us to think about what we read on several levels.
Thank you Dr Kim, your insights and analysis has added to m=y understanding of this Canto and Dante's intention. I'm fascinated by the Aristotelian notion of incontinence, whereby passion and desire overwhelms the rational will. This seems to be at the centre of human frailty and evil.
So the story of Paolo and Francesca influenced by their reading of the story of Lancelot and Guinevere is an example of what Rene Girard calls "mimetic desire". So they are in the same boat as Don Quixote and Madame Bovary.
Masterful lecture, providing many insights to further explore. In Ciardi's notes he says that this circle of hell, the second, is for sins of incontinence (which was mentioned in the excellent video lecture as well). He also says though that these are the sins of the she-wolf. The she-wolf, however, is a revered symbol for the founding of Rome, with Romulus and Remus being nurtured by such a wolf. Thus, in Roman mythology the she-wolf is a nurturing, maternal figure. If Dante drew his inspirations for the three beasts from Jeremiah, the Bible doesn't specify that the wolf is female, but Dante does. Is there some patriarchal sexism in Dante aligning the sins of destructive lustfulness and concupiscence to a female animal. If so this seems resonant with notions of vagina dentata, the destructive female, but also resonant with Eve, whose fault everything sinful is according to some viewpoints. Dante does put many queens in this circle (as commented in the lecture), but then he puts Tristan there, but not Isolde.
It is also possible that the she-wolf references the avarice of the papacy in Dante's time. A statue of the she-wolf suckling Romulus and Remus stood near the Lateran palace, the home of the Pope in Dante's time. Since the papacy is connected to avarice throughout the poem and since the earliest commentators on the Comedy associated the she-wolf with avarice (connecting the leopard to lust), that interpretation seems consistent with the time in which Dante wrote. While the she-wolf is regarded as an emblem of nurturing benevolence in the Roman myth, its association with avarice is original with Dante and typical of his adaptation of ancient myth and his view of the corrupting influence of the papacy of his time.
@@rickreed2180 Your comment makes me wonder that if there is papal criticism embedded in Dante, or at least papal critques, if the Comedy had any influence on Reformation thinkers.
@@bej5000 I taught Dante for most of my 40 years as an English instructor and often wondered the same thing. Though I was never able to discover evidence that Luther, Calvin, or any of their fellow reformers actually read Dante, it is clear throughout the Comedy that Dante would have agreed with much of what Luther was saying at the beginning though I am certain that he would not have sought a full split from Rome as both Luther and Calvin did in the end.
Francesca is a brilliantly manipulative power; she is in perfect control of language. It's unsurprising that the Romantics liked her - it reminds me of Blake's interest in Satan in Paradise Lost, and his famous claim that Milton was 'of the Devil's party without knowing it.' Byron seems to miss the point that Dante is allowing us to be tempted by Francesca's words as a tool to educate us, not necessarily as an endorsement of her as a character!
Canto 5: Just as the Sorting Hat reads the minds of entering students regarding their history and hopes in order to assign them to the appropriate House in Hogwarts, Minos, using similar techniques, judges to which levels of the Inferno sinners had condemned themselves. Although Aeneas and Dido had engaged in lustful behavior together, Aeneas, freeing himself from the relationship by sailing on to Latium, resides for eternity in the tranquility of Limbo, whereas Dido, committing suicide for love, is consigned to the First Circle of the Inferno (Lust) with its whirlwinds of passion, instead of to the Second Round of the Seventh Circle, where Suicides were attacked by the fearsome winds of Harpies. Sinful behavior can be changed and the self-assignment to the Inferno’s levels can be mitigated!
This was an excellent talk. While I am enjoying all the speakers in this series, this has been the best to date. These others were all very good. This one, however, was excellent.
Fascinating. I hadn't thought of the idea that Dante was implicating himself in Francesca and Paolo's fall with her quotation of his earlier poetry.
I didn't know that either. It's not in the notes to the translation of the Comedy I'm reading. (Ciardi's translation).
That connection is invaluable! Wow!
This was excellent. It was delivered simply, yet the point packs quite a complex punch--about reading and its potential implication for sin.
Very interesting commentary. Suggests the complex interplay between Dante's actual life of writing poetry, his role as a participant in his active pity for the sinners Francesca and Paolo, and perhaps his role in providing the readers, or observers, with deeper understanding of those they meet on this journey or perhaps misleading them into believing things that distort what actually happened in the real story of theie lives. Thanks, Dr. Kim, for asking us to think about what we read on several levels.
Wonderfully and sensitively presented. Thank you Dr. Kim.
Thank you Dr Kim, your insights and analysis has added to m=y understanding of this Canto and Dante's intention. I'm fascinated by the Aristotelian notion of incontinence, whereby passion and desire overwhelms the rational will. This seems to be at the centre of human frailty and evil.
Now I have to read it again, excellent presentation.
Love this insight and commentary into Dante's Inferno, Canto 5! Thanks so much, Dr. Kim!
So the story of Paolo and Francesca influenced by their reading of the story of Lancelot and Guinevere is an example of what Rene Girard calls "mimetic desire". So they are in the same boat as Don Quixote and Madame Bovary.
Thank you for clear and concise comments. Very helpful
नमस्कार जय हिंद जय महाराष्ट्र शिवाजी भाष्टे मुंबई उच्च मी तुमचे मनापासून आभार मानतो आणि अभिनंदन करतो आहे आणि तुम्हाला हार्दिक शुभेच्छा दिल्या आहेत
Wonderful, helpful commentary!
Masterful lecture, providing many insights to further explore.
In Ciardi's notes he says that this circle of hell, the second, is for sins of incontinence (which was mentioned in the excellent video lecture as well). He also says though that these are the sins of the she-wolf. The she-wolf, however, is a revered symbol for the founding of Rome, with Romulus and Remus being nurtured by such a wolf. Thus, in Roman mythology the she-wolf is a nurturing, maternal figure. If Dante drew his inspirations for the three beasts from Jeremiah, the Bible doesn't specify that the wolf is female, but Dante does. Is there some patriarchal sexism in Dante aligning the sins of destructive lustfulness and concupiscence to a female animal. If so this seems resonant with notions of vagina dentata, the destructive female, but also resonant with Eve, whose fault everything sinful is according to some viewpoints. Dante does put many queens in this circle (as commented in the lecture), but then he puts Tristan there, but not Isolde.
It is also possible that the she-wolf references the avarice of the papacy in Dante's time. A statue of the she-wolf suckling Romulus and Remus stood near the Lateran palace, the home of the Pope in Dante's time. Since the papacy is connected to avarice throughout the poem and since the earliest commentators on the Comedy associated the she-wolf with avarice (connecting the leopard to lust), that interpretation seems consistent with the time in which Dante wrote. While the she-wolf is regarded as an emblem of nurturing benevolence in the Roman myth, its association with avarice is original with Dante and typical of his adaptation of ancient myth and his view of the corrupting influence of the papacy of his time.
@@rickreed2180 Your comment makes me wonder that if there is papal criticism embedded in Dante, or at least papal critques, if the Comedy had any influence on Reformation thinkers.
@@bej5000 I taught Dante for most of my 40 years as an English instructor and often wondered the same thing. Though I was never able to discover evidence that Luther, Calvin, or any of their fellow reformers actually read Dante, it is clear throughout the Comedy that Dante would have agreed with much of what Luther was saying at the beginning though I am certain that he would not have sought a full split from Rome as both Luther and Calvin did in the end.
Liberals are insufferable. "Patriarchal sexism?" Please. Go read Vagina monologues if you're going to spew your poison and get your feelings hurt.
Thank You best recap so far
Right? Dr Kim clearly has brought some amazing and intricate thinking of her own to this. Can she do the rest of the lectures?
Wonderful insight into this Canto. Thanks!
Excellent description 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Just loved it!
Today I read Canto 5.
You are my Virgil, leading me out of the hell of reading Inferno. Thank you.
Thank you!!!
Great commentary Dr Kim
Thank you, Dr. Kim.
Fantastic.
okay so.... I could listen to your voice all day, haha 😇
Francesca is a brilliantly manipulative power; she is in perfect control of language. It's unsurprising that the Romantics liked her - it reminds me of Blake's interest in Satan in Paradise Lost, and his famous claim that Milton was 'of the Devil's party without knowing it.' Byron seems to miss the point that Dante is allowing us to be tempted by Francesca's words as a tool to educate us, not necessarily as an endorsement of her as a character!
Your comment is just very accurate
What a clear voice.... She is not only cute but easy to listen to.
Canto 5: Just as the Sorting Hat reads the minds of entering students regarding their history and hopes in order to assign them to the appropriate House in Hogwarts, Minos, using similar techniques, judges to which levels of the Inferno sinners had condemned themselves. Although Aeneas and Dido had engaged in lustful behavior together, Aeneas, freeing himself from the relationship by sailing on to Latium, resides for eternity in the tranquility of Limbo, whereas Dido, committing suicide for love, is consigned to the First Circle of the Inferno (Lust) with its whirlwinds of passion, instead of to the Second Round of the Seventh Circle, where Suicides were attacked by the fearsome winds of Harpies. Sinful behavior can be changed and the self-assignment to the Inferno’s levels can be mitigated!
I wonder which translation she is quoting. I actually prefer it.
How would you say the punishment is appropriate