PLEASE NOTE! This is our full length 30 minute discussion about dirt bike clubs! Segments of this also appeared over the past year, so you have probably seen much of this content already. We are only releasing this complete version for those very interested in enduro clubs.
We have a club in Georgia, its growing and going strong. It is a ton of work, but we are making a positive impact for Georgia’s public riding area’s. We have managed to stop the closing of a few public ride area’s, got one re-opened that was closed, and are working with the USFS to gain back some trails/miles that were lost due to lack of maintenance. We do seem to fit the mold you described in that we have ~200 members, but about 40 or so dedicated souls that come to do the work on the public trails. One part for us that doesn’t seem to follow what you have seen is we are open to electric motorcycles as well as ATVs. Basically our viewpoint is if you are willing to come out and put in the sweat equity then you are more than welcome with us. We do regularly meet with the public officials along with other user groups to keep a voice at the table when discussions about public lands are going on. Being at those discussions is critical for so many reasons. Over time it seems like we are improving our image with those other user groups but its a slow process and you need to stay the course, be willing to take a loss in a discussion in order to keep the overall goal of keeping ride area’s open while not loosing your cool. Not always easy.
If there is any hope left for keeping our trails & riding areas open i think this discussion has shown some great insight. Definitely agree it is always a hard task getting people to band together and actually do something until its too late.
Incredibly hard task in Australia, Ryan. Quite a few areas are getting closed down and a few guys are creating ad hoc petitions. But the serious work of forming clubs to advocate at government level needed to start decades ago, as it did in Canada. 😢
For Barry in particular, in Qld where he and I both ride the vast bulk of the forests were signed over to the company 'HQ Plantations' buy the Labour govt we suffer under. Not only did we loose the ongoing state revenue these forests provide, but HQP are then able to dictate what goes on in their work areas. There were clauses added governing the land use, which locks HQP into continuing to harvest and replant the trees, but it also states that what was previously allowed to occur in the forests prior to the sale, must continue to be allowed into the future. This includes events like horse riding enduro events, car rallying and a local dirt bike event called the Kenilworth Chook Chase. Perhaps it could be argued that the 100s of km of single track we've riding for years is also a part of what was going on beforehand.
In Quebec, pretty much all the trails were maintained by ATV and snowmobile clubs, and most of them did not allow dirt bikes. But in 2011, a few people started FQMHR, which is the Quebec off road motorcycle federation, and they started setting rules, and then negotiating with these clubs for access to their trails. They keep adding access every year and now there's over 11000km available to us to ride on perfectly legally, provided you buy an annual pass, which is used to give money back to the ATV clubs who maintain their trails.
I have pointed to the Quebec example many times when discussing bike clubs and organizations. The motorcycle community was not at the table when the Quebec trail networks were developed and became a product of snowmobile and ATV agendas. Fortunately the FQMHR did come along, but has sadly been playing catch up ever since.
Great content, wish I had something decent to comment, my only suggestion could be using the network of organisers through racing that already exists, ie clubs affiliated with Enduro racing from state and National series have a broad network (strength in numbers)and somehow be an additional mission of those state/national series?Obviously a lot of work but at least there are clubs out there who are somewhat organised and passionate people who get memberships already and have more clout when dealing with the powers that decide these things, rather than creating new clubs just for trail riding?
It would be interesting to see if our national body formed years ago (DSMRA) ever tried that, I'm sure they would have. But they stopped any advocacy a long time ago because riders simply couldn't be bothered. And now everyone is up in arms when it's too late.
Just lost a few offroad riding areas near me lately. And I was even tresspassing to ride there... In the Midwest USA there's just so litle public land to ride. Either you're a rich land owner or shit out of luck. Thanks for this discussion. I'm aiming to get more involved locally to see what I can do to open up new areas or protect the few that we have, though they are just private parks.
Dallas, this is a great topic. As the previous president of the OFTR, I have so much to say on this topic. I’ve thought about writing a piece actually. Clubs/Organizations are good, but my experience led me to believe that certain structures/organizations are better than others and they don’t always achieve desirable results. I think there is a lot of opportunity and possibilities for organizations focused on riders but multiple factors are getting in the way. I need to stop because I could write an essay here but don’t want to. Thanks for your work and constant representation of the riding community.
Dallas has often told me about OFTR and other organizations in Canada making a real difference. Great to hear! Not sure if Dallas will read this but I'm sure he would be interested in a live chat on the topic... when he's not run off his feet as usual lol.
Dropping a comment for anyone that wanted to connect regarding what we have going on here in Michigan. I’m a member of the WMTR and the CCC. Both have done and are doing the work to “Save the trails”
It’s really sad here in germany. Offroad riding and greenlaning is completely illegal (like 100%). There are no legal open offroad riding areas or trails. Enduro training grounds are almost nonexistent and even the official motocross tracks with their clubs have to constantly fight for their right to exist against environmental groups, random residents and local governments. All I can say is, organize and work together to keep your riding areas open wherever you are! Never take your freedom for granted!
Being part of my local club here in Kamloops BC. I have noticed there is a struggle going on, not only here but everywhere. Membership and participation is a serious struggle. We have so much trail to keep open and maintain. Its non stop never ending. Add onto that, event hosting (races/local events etc) take up massive amounts of time and monetary and volunteer cost. I am pained to see how little younger aged people are getting into the club participation aspect. I think there is something to be said about getting clubs to focus on quality member acquisition. That being said those of us under 35 have many pressures that pull us away from participation. And honestly, a lot of us younger people are burned out, most of us have 0 desire to deal with govt and institutions that have burned us beyond belief in the last couple decades. It sucks, but I think it's part of the issue. And I wholeheartedly agree, all executives and directors of clubs are the true superheroes in these clubs dealing with the endless govt bureaucracy I think we as club members and directors NEED to try to move it from intaginble to TANGIBLE benefits in joining their local clubs. Even if it is the more painful route, our survival depends on it I think.
I also think electric bikes coming into the dirtbike sphere VERY well could be our saving grace. I.e bringing a newer riders and more people into the clubs and riding areas.
I have gone to meetings where land use is decided, while local dirtbikers talk a good game..............maybe 1 guy shows up. Usually completely unprepared. People put their energy where they want it to be, action is what matters. Dirtbikes attract a LOT of wild and crazy guys, who want what they want and fuck all the rest. Not all, but a lot are like that. Self defeating in modern times. Like screaming children.
@@bradsanders6954yea, unfortunately a lot of us are not interested in the political side. Although that being said, if it's already decided, and dirtbikes do attend. What's the point? I get the impression the other groups generally just have way more people who live for the politicking. Which I guess does give them an advantage.
With urban encroachment on many riding areas, the European example of most riding activity being "Verbotten" is often pointed to as the future. In North America however there is a huge amount of wilderness land far away from these areas, and off road riders will need to adjust expecations. Many inquiries to off-road clubs are all about where in or around the city they can go riding...which is generally not realistic these days. Snowmobilers often head out 100+ miles to hit the trail networks and bike riders may have to consider the same. There wil still need to be clubs fighting for the right to THAT trail access!
As a mountain biker and club participant and past executive, as well as a dirt biker, I think it's a really big deal to keep these clubs going. I think it is the best way to keep the trails open and accessible. As for the electric side of things; I would want to encourage new people into the clubs and get their participation. I know I ran into a lot of conflicts on the Mountain Bike side with other user groups that did not have wheels. I personally don't think an electric off-road bike is a much different usage of a trail system that a traditional dirt bike. As for the noise side, as I said, as a mountain biker I ran into issues, and other than breathing loudly, I don't think I was making a lot of noise. Some user groups really have issues with anyone on wheels. Us "wheeled" folk need to stick together. As well; embracing some of the newer tech stuff, will help get the clubs a little younger so down the road when a lot of us age out, there will be someone there with a vested interest in keeping things going.
In Sweden you have to be member of a certified club to be able to get your enduro-license which in turns gives you the right to ride your enduro-registered bike to and from the tracks on public roads. Nowadays quite a lot of bikes are not enduro-registered anymore since you buy then street-legal from the manufacturer but still I would say at least 60-70% of the riders are club-members.
In the uk we have the TRF (trail riders fellowship), a national entity organised in regional chapters. The local sections work essentially as clubs, the national organisation fights the political battles against closures. We don’t have as many trails as you, almost everything is private, and the little that isn’t constantly tries to ban motorcycles, so this is very important a function.
I have never heard of these anywhere. I'm in Indiana in the US, never heard of anything like this. I have a dual sport too, Yamaha XT 225, the Serow. So no clubs for dual sports I've heard of. I have ridden by myself a lot over the years.
@cooganbeggs4942 I taught my son's when they were younger, they got their MSF course down and their endorsements here too. I have a few OIF veterans groups I ride with but more often than not I'm always riding by myself. On or off road
@ your sons are lucky! I had no one to teach me in my younger days so developed all kinds of bad habits over decades and now I’m trying to undo everything and learn from scratch from the internet. I love riding alone tbh but it’s always in the back of my mind that something can go wrong
Motorcycling NSW and Motorcycling Australia are writing nasty letters back and forth to each other and no doubt using lawyers. And whenever I want to ride a club day at my local MX track the sign on costs keeps escalating. Its broken as far as I'm concerned - how are young kids meant to get involved in racing these days
Houston has a coalition that oversees NF trails with the national Forest service, organizes volunteers, writes grants and does fund raising. There are hiking, biking, equestrian and what are called multiuser trails the latter are the motorized trails but they are not exclusive but are as the name implies while the others are exclusive. Most of the maintenance is done by forest service trained volunteers.
In my local area (North Idaho) the conflict in shared trail systems is that some irresponsible riders don’t stay on designated trails and dig out random paths all over the mountain which are unsightly and not to mention the erosion issues that result. I feel there is a lack of education to those riders of unintended consequences for those actions. That being closure of riding areas.
Perhaps when it comes to our segment of motorcycling (enduro riding, dual sporting, ADV riders), we are essentially solo riders. Note that I left out motocross and closed dirt track riding. We do band together, but it's more often out of safety than a shared experience, unless it's a close knit group of friends. I'll admit to having my own apathy towards paid membership clubs for off road riding, with the exception of VIHSS/VIDRA because of the competition events. And yes, we tend to only loudly rally when our riding areas are under threat of closure, but not many of us want to be involved with stewardship as a club. It's good that you also touched on electric bikes near the end. I own an electric trials bike, and I found it more reassuring to ride this bike during the wildfire season than my gas bike. Battery technology and range will compete and surpass gas bikes easily within my riding lifetime (I'm close to 50).
Dallas and I have been discussing these issues for years, he's sure the typical rider tends to be your anti-authority independent spirit which makes any group action and advocacy difficult. I'm inclined to agree! But bring on the e-bikes. I'll definitely get one when the range is good enough. And there's good traction control so they don't spin so much in loose terrain.
@@crosstrainingenduro You two brought up many good and valid points in your video. However, the majority might not be as hooligan as it sounds. You have the small handful of vocal troublemakers who make the rest of us look bad. Also, I have the Electric Motion ePure Race which has a legit clutch, and it makes all the difference.
For us here in Australia, the biggest dagger in the heart of our sport happened years ago when we allowed our elected officials to declare Off Road Riding an ILLEGAL activity. To require Street Focused regulation will never allow us to grow. We need a system to allow families to ride. *Imagine a system that allows you to take your 10yr old riding trails! We have rights to public land and rights to use them in a responsible and managed manner. We need to lobby all bodies of land management for access. ***Join your local dirtbike club*** Join every club in regions you ride. Support ALL efforts for Rec Rego, and include Legal means for your families to ride in Legal, managed OHV area's. The sport is looked upon as a young male hooligan activity ATM. Not family activities. We have already gone rogue, as we have zero legal right to any single trail on public lands. The sport will grow if we can shed the stereotype.
Not sure about off road riding being declared illegal, Paul.... unless you mean unlicensed riders or mx bikes? We've actually had signs to our Qld state forests welcoming dirt riders but with the caveats of being registered and licensed. It would be good to have that rec reg like other states though so you can slap a headlight on a non-ADR bike and still ride. Kids in public areas? Massive insurance issue for the government. There would need to be legislative changes to provide for under age riding, but of course we've never advocated for this sort of change.
@@cooganbeggs4942This is part of the issue… a misunderstanding of what has happened. It IS totally illegal to ride off-road in both state and national parks of Australia. This means riding on anything but a gazetted, formed, and maintained road is illegal. It is also why you must have a road licence and a registered motorbike. The single tracks I cut in my younger years are totally illegal, and 80% of the tracks I ride today are illegal. In some parts of my state parks have setup cameras on single tracks to fine riders. Unfortunately, clubs cannot exist and promote illegal activities.
Going rogue in the UK happens a lot. The local councils close trails yet make no provision for riding somewhere. As the video say, we are already wired up to be independent people who just want to ride. This means people will end up riding anywhere. Some places this is fine, others very inappropriate. The battle goes on! If they want to stop riding, they have to ban the sale of dirt bikes.
Dirtbikers and 4X4 enthusiasts declared war on the huge timber company properties, now every single road is gated state wide, 1000's of access roads all closed. Everyone got closed out of what used to be open to public use. Mainly really it was 4X4 rebels mud bogging the roads fender deep and they tear the gates out with winches still. They dont view private property as private property. A Starg Varg digs just as big a trench as a CR500. Its just quieter.
I only joined a club in my area (Ontario) because there is no other way to really ride trails anymore. Having grown up riding trails my entire early life, what really shaped me, those were cottage country roads, logging roads and such. Now, I don't see access to logging roads even being welcome, even though they are marked as "accessible by motorized vehicles." And don't get me started on the odd wording about horseback riders and their rights when it comes to trails.
Excellent content as usual! Im from the Philippines, and here in my island, we have a few official groups who organize trail rides and events. And yes, its free work for them. We're a tad lucky here as the government does not really give a damn which part of the mountains we ride.
that is a great conversation to be having, im in florida now, coming from new england, usa, and i thought id see a lot more places to ride but even dedicated tracks have closed due to declined interest in the sport(mx in particular). lots of people riding ebikes on footpaths tho, it skirts all the rules and nobody cares enough to stop em. also, i agree, battery tech is not there yet, once we have something with comparable p/w, even Half what we get from gas, were gonna go nuts. sound reductions are a huge part of the public acceptance and its not just a comfort-level concern, people have better ability to communicate and detect or alert riders of dangers. a rider rippin rev bomb wheelies just to be a dick is not an issue anymore cuz it just becomes a slow unicycle... SPEAKING OF WHICH have you guys seen these crazy off-road electric unicycles?!? please speak on it!!
Good informative and thought-provoking video, even though it doesn't really apply to me since I live in Germany and off-road riding is illegal everywhere except for a few small tracks. Didn't know that clubs actually have the ability to be heard in governmental stuff. If we were allowed to ride in forests with electric bikes, I would immediately sell my beta 😂 the paranoia of riding illegal really takes the fun away for me. Because you talked about what an electric bicycle is: In Germany a bicycle with electric drive that can be ridden without insurance or license has limited power output 250W and 25kmh top speed. Everything else with higher power/top speed has to drive on roads just like a scooter/motorcycle and needs a license plate or a special insurance-plate if below 45kmh.
Very very tough situation in western Europe! I think we have identical laws here for e-bikes although lots of owners disable the restrictions and ride around at 60 to 80kmh...
Rules are slow to come into being for all levels of E bikes in the US, people buy a 50mph Surron that is illegal on road, on OHV trail, on bike paths...............the thought being if its illegal no matter where it goes? Its fine to ride anywhere you want. EMTB class 1 there's lots of place to ride. Germany sounds like it really clamped down and hard. ..........enforcement of existing E bike rules is close to non existent around here anyway. Its not a priority.
in my country we have pure freedom to ride wherever you want, if you slim enough to squeeze through the doorway of closed cottage village _(to ride in their forest)_ - you good to go 👌 on the bicycle i even get into closed military town, on gated exit solder was very confused 😅
Here in the U.S. it's pretty straightforwardly political. Conservative states tend to have more state forest areas open for powersport use, and states run by Democrats regulate against ATV's and dirt bike use. Politicians appealing to their voter base.
Yep. Democracy in action. As many say, it's messy, open to abuse, makes changes very slowly, and is inefficient. But for most of us it's the best of a bad range of political options. 😂
Electric isn't the final solution, noise is just an easy excuse although some guys bikes are way way too loud. I say it isn't the solution having had plenty of arguments with the "public" while trying to ride a Mountain bike including finding sabotaged trails does seem more and more people will only except what they want, unfortunately the town/city moving to the country stereotype does exist with some base behind it. Hate to say it but a bit of noise might be helpful for the morons who always end up walking on "the trail", electric dirt bikes are capable of much higher speeds than a Mountain bike on the flat, some noise and most of the morons that don't read signs even when they exist might hear you.
Unfortunately in Qld, the sport at a grass and even a pro level is not great. Compounded by how difficult it is to find land also. The idea of being part of a club has suffered. I’m not sure even what the attendance for clubs like RTCB is even like. The major factor for me though compared to the 90’s and early 2000’s, is the impact of social media, we have become lazy and lost our focus on the self fulfilment you get by just getting out for a ride for the fun of it, and not feeling compelled to f’ing record everything
I see adventure/ light dual sport social clubs doing very well where I live. But they really are social clubs with a slight motorcycle problem. The true off-road guys tend to just group together and groups of four or five and go cut trail and ride.
Haven't watched any of your videos for a long time. I'm thinking of buying a trials bike. As my injuries from young take effect. Scaphoid is nasty. Are there cheap(ish) Chinese trials bikes? Man the things are real hard to get a bargain on.
I'm sorry, which Canadian clubs are we talking about? I've been riding with my friend for almost 10 years (Quebec: Jack Rabbit, Rowdon, Macasa and so on) and have barely seen anyone riding in groups. I didn't even know they existed as a class, let alone some private courses and so on.
From what I’ve seen in the United States, the public wins over the dirtbike riders everytime. I guess it could be the riders aren’t fighting enough? But to me it seems the government agree’s with the public and would love to shut down all riding area’s.
In the video Dallas says the nature of dirt riding tends to attract people not interested in the boring hard work needed to run clubs and advocate at a government level.... and to be effective (as in parts of Canada) it needed to start many years ago to counter the advocacy of green groups to close down areas. 😢
The reason freedom loving outdoors men/woman and dirt bike riders don't want to be a part of the clubs is because we don't want to be a part of politics. We don't want to control other people. We don't want to dictate how other people live. But that leaves us up against huge groups of Karen's and Ken's that do want to control and dictate how we can live our life and how public lands can be used. I have just fallen back to not asking where I can ride and just doing what I want. Free men do not ask for permission. And the whole electric bike and loud pipes hurting is all a bunch of BS. Those Karen's use the noise to complain because it's easy, but don't be fooled they don't want anyone else to use the trails in anyway that they do not. And they are not riding 80hp electric bikes.
1. Riding single trail on Australian public land is illegal!! Clubs cannot support illegal activities; and 2. Kids today cannot afford a modern $16K bike, a trailer, a car, and all the dirt bike gear. Only to be fined by police/parks or find there best track destroyed by an excavator.
Free clubs are great (like SingleTrack Squids here in Colorado). All the different "paid" clubs or offroad groups are annoying. Each has their own agenda but each wants $20-50 a year. If I had to join every paid club or rider group for all the areas I ride in just one state (Colorado), I would be paying hundreds of dollars. Each club does not like the other club or has different agendas, so you end up with many paid clubs or riding groups not working together but always wanting you to join. Makes no sense. Just ends up being dirt bike politics that you pay a yearly fee for. F k that.
All of the OHV clubs in CO (trail advocacy groups, not social clubs) don't have different agendas. They have the same agenda and just maintain different riding areas (maintaining existing trails and opening new trails) which costs money. They are operating as non-profit businesses and that comes with boring hard costs for things like insurance, software, tools, fuel, storage, etc. They are angels and they all need money and volunteers.
As soon as a Club (offroad) starts to enquire with Government land management the red tape lashes us down. Riding with a few mates, they wouldnt know where we go, unless intercepted of course.
Do you know cases where that has happened? The reports I get from clubs actively advocating for riders with government departments seem to get anything ranging from postive results to just no response.... but not an actively negative response. I'd be keen to hear details of where that has happened though. The comment just before yours was one of the good news stories: We have a club in Georgia, its growing and going strong. It is a ton of work, but we are making a positive impact for Georgia’s public riding area’s. We have managed to stop the closing of a few public ride area’s, got one re-opened that was closed, and are working with the USFS to gain back some trails/miles that were lost due to lack of maintenance. We do seem to fit the mold you described in that we have ~200 members, but about 40 or so dedicated souls that come to do the work on the public trails. One part for us that doesn’t seem to follow what you have seen is we are open to electric motorcycles as well as ATVs. Basically our viewpoint is if you are willing to come out and put in the sweat equity then you are more than welcome with us. We do regularly meet with the public officials along with other user groups to keep a voice at the table when discussions about public lands are going on. Being at those discussions is critical for so many reasons. Over time it seems like we are improving our image with those other user groups but its a slow process and you need to stay the course, be willing to take a loss in a discussion in order to keep the overall goal of keeping ride area’s open while not loosing your cool. Not always easy.
New England USA - Local clubs are almost dead with the tightening of environmental and economic pressure. Even clubs that have been around for 30years on their own private land are getting forced out due to karen neighbors complaining about the noise and being slapped with frivolous law suits and subject to belligerent local bureaucratic pressure. ELECTRIC IS THE FUTURE for trail riding in southern New England. There is no chance for ICE bikes, that ship sailed 15years ago
I worked my ass off in the bs corporate world my whole life. 7 years ago I finally bought my own property so I can now ride in peace. I’m now 116 years old and having some trouble kick starting my old XR250R but still enjoy getting out there when I can 🫡
PLEASE NOTE! This is our full length 30 minute discussion about dirt bike clubs! Segments of this also appeared over the past year, so you have probably seen much of this content already. We are only releasing this complete version for those very interested in enduro clubs.
We have a club in Georgia, its growing and going strong. It is a ton of work, but we are making a positive impact for Georgia’s public riding area’s. We have managed to stop the closing of a few public ride area’s, got one re-opened that was closed, and are working with the USFS to gain back some trails/miles that were lost due to lack of maintenance. We do seem to fit the mold you described in that we have ~200 members, but about 40 or so dedicated souls that come to do the work on the public trails. One part for us that doesn’t seem to follow what you have seen is we are open to electric motorcycles as well as ATVs. Basically our viewpoint is if you are willing to come out and put in the sweat equity then you are more than welcome with us. We do regularly meet with the public officials along with other user groups to keep a voice at the table when discussions about public lands are going on. Being at those discussions is critical for so many reasons. Over time it seems like we are improving our image with those other user groups but its a slow process and you need to stay the course, be willing to take a loss in a discussion in order to keep the overall goal of keeping ride area’s open while not loosing your cool. Not always easy.
That’s a great example of how clubs can make a difference. Did you have a link in case any Georgians are reading this?
If there is any hope left for keeping our trails & riding areas open i think this discussion has shown some great insight. Definitely agree it is always a hard task getting people to band together and actually do something until its too late.
Incredibly hard task in Australia, Ryan. Quite a few areas are getting closed down and a few guys are creating ad hoc petitions. But the serious work of forming clubs to advocate at government level needed to start decades ago, as it did in Canada. 😢
For Barry in particular, in Qld where he and I both ride the vast bulk of the forests were signed over to the company 'HQ Plantations' buy the Labour govt we suffer under.
Not only did we loose the ongoing state revenue these forests provide, but HQP are then able to dictate what goes on in their work areas.
There were clauses added governing the land use, which locks HQP into continuing to harvest and replant the trees, but it also states that what was previously allowed to occur in the forests prior to the sale, must continue to be allowed into the future.
This includes events like horse riding enduro events, car rallying and a local dirt bike event called the Kenilworth Chook Chase.
Perhaps it could be argued that the 100s of km of single track we've riding for years is also a part of what was going on beforehand.
In Quebec, pretty much all the trails were maintained by ATV and snowmobile clubs, and most of them did not allow dirt bikes. But in 2011, a few people started FQMHR, which is the Quebec off road motorcycle federation, and they started setting rules, and then negotiating with these clubs for access to their trails. They keep adding access every year and now there's over 11000km available to us to ride on perfectly legally, provided you buy an annual pass, which is used to give money back to the ATV clubs who maintain their trails.
Incroyable! Great to see what some cooperation can achieve.
That's awesome
I have pointed to the Quebec example many times when discussing bike clubs and organizations. The motorcycle community was not at the table when the Quebec trail networks were developed and became a product of snowmobile and ATV agendas. Fortunately the FQMHR did come along, but has sadly been playing catch up ever since.
2:30 is the most socially relevant clip I have ever seen. Pure gold. Join a club/form a club or fight over a damn stump- your choice.
So happy to see the channel's still going Barry . Happy new year everyone.
Thanks, all the best for 2025! Yes I've been posting less videos lately as I figured it was time to take it easy and avoid burnout.
Great content, wish I had something decent to comment, my only suggestion could be using the network of organisers through racing that already exists, ie clubs affiliated with Enduro racing from state and National series have a broad network (strength in numbers)and somehow be an additional mission of those state/national series?Obviously a lot of work but at least there are clubs out there who are somewhat organised and passionate people who get memberships already and have more clout when dealing with the powers that decide these things,
rather than creating new clubs just for trail riding?
It would be interesting to see if our national body formed years ago (DSMRA) ever tried that, I'm sure they would have. But they stopped any advocacy a long time ago because riders simply couldn't be bothered. And now everyone is up in arms when it's too late.
Just lost a few offroad riding areas near me lately. And I was even tresspassing to ride there... In the Midwest USA there's just so litle public land to ride. Either you're a rich land owner or shit out of luck. Thanks for this discussion. I'm aiming to get more involved locally to see what I can do to open up new areas or protect the few that we have, though they are just private parks.
Dallas, this is a great topic. As the previous president of the OFTR, I have so much to say on this topic. I’ve thought about writing a piece actually. Clubs/Organizations are good, but my experience led me to believe that certain structures/organizations are better than others and they don’t always achieve desirable results.
I think there is a lot of opportunity and possibilities for organizations focused on riders but multiple factors are getting in the way.
I need to stop because I could write an essay here but don’t want to. Thanks for your work and constant representation of the riding community.
Dallas has often told me about OFTR and other organizations in Canada making a real difference. Great to hear! Not sure if Dallas will read this but I'm sure he would be interested in a live chat on the topic... when he's not run off his feet as usual lol.
Dropping a comment for anyone that wanted to connect regarding what we have going on here in Michigan.
I’m a member of the WMTR and the CCC. Both have done and are doing the work to “Save the trails”
Great to hear! Have you got a link for anyone interested? I did a quick search and could only find horse or MTB riding groups.
It’s really sad here in germany. Offroad riding and greenlaning is completely illegal (like 100%). There are no legal open offroad riding areas or trails.
Enduro training grounds are almost nonexistent and even the official motocross tracks with their clubs have to constantly fight for their right to exist against environmental groups, random residents and local governments.
All I can say is, organize and work together to keep your riding areas open wherever you are! Never take your freedom for granted!
Being part of my local club here in Kamloops BC. I have noticed there is a struggle going on, not only here but everywhere. Membership and participation is a serious struggle. We have so much trail to keep open and maintain. Its non stop never ending. Add onto that, event hosting (races/local events etc) take up massive amounts of time and monetary and volunteer cost.
I am pained to see how little younger aged people are getting into the club participation aspect.
I think there is something to be said about getting clubs to focus on quality member acquisition. That being said those of us under 35 have many pressures that pull us away from participation.
And honestly, a lot of us younger people are burned out, most of us have 0 desire to deal with govt and institutions that have burned us beyond belief in the last couple decades. It sucks, but I think it's part of the issue. And I wholeheartedly agree, all executives and directors of clubs are the true superheroes in these clubs dealing with the endless govt bureaucracy
I think we as club members and directors NEED to try to move it from intaginble to TANGIBLE benefits in joining their local clubs. Even if it is the more painful route, our survival depends on it I think.
I also think electric bikes coming into the dirtbike sphere VERY well could be our saving grace. I.e bringing a newer riders and more people into the clubs and riding areas.
I have gone to meetings where land use is decided, while local dirtbikers talk a good game..............maybe 1 guy shows up. Usually completely unprepared. People put their energy where they want it to be, action is what matters.
Dirtbikes attract a LOT of wild and crazy guys, who want what they want and fuck all the rest.
Not all, but a lot are like that. Self defeating in modern times. Like screaming children.
@@bradsanders6954yea, unfortunately a lot of us are not interested in the political side. Although that being said, if it's already decided, and dirtbikes do attend. What's the point? I get the impression the other groups generally just have way more people who live for the politicking. Which I guess does give them an advantage.
With urban encroachment on many riding areas, the European example of most riding activity being "Verbotten" is often pointed to as the future. In North America however there is a huge amount of wilderness land far away from these areas, and off road riders will need to adjust expecations. Many inquiries to off-road clubs are all about where in or around the city they can go riding...which is generally not realistic these days. Snowmobilers often head out 100+ miles to hit the trail networks and bike riders may have to consider the same. There wil still need to be clubs fighting for the right to THAT trail access!
It's a shame, but the future is looking increasingly urbanised.
As a mountain biker and club participant and past executive, as well as a dirt biker, I think it's a really big deal to keep these clubs going. I think it is the best way to keep the trails open and accessible. As for the electric side of things; I would want to encourage new people into the clubs and get their participation. I know I ran into a lot of conflicts on the Mountain Bike side with other user groups that did not have wheels. I personally don't think an electric off-road bike is a much different usage of a trail system that a traditional dirt bike. As for the noise side, as I said, as a mountain biker I ran into issues, and other than breathing loudly, I don't think I was making a lot of noise. Some user groups really have issues with anyone on wheels. Us "wheeled" folk need to stick together. As well; embracing some of the newer tech stuff, will help get the clubs a little younger so down the road when a lot of us age out, there will be someone there with a vested interest in keeping things going.
Well said.
In Sweden you have to be member of a certified club to be able to get your enduro-license which in turns gives you the right to ride your enduro-registered bike to and from the tracks on public roads. Nowadays quite a lot of bikes are not enduro-registered anymore since you buy then street-legal from the manufacturer but still I would say at least 60-70% of the riders are club-members.
Nomad Sweden and now his new channel has been my go to source for adventure riding in Sweden.
In the uk we have the TRF (trail riders fellowship), a national entity organised in regional chapters. The local sections work essentially as clubs, the national organisation fights the political battles against closures. We don’t have as many trails as you, almost everything is private, and the little that isn’t constantly tries to ban motorcycles, so this is very important a function.
Great to hear! We had something similar years ago (DSMRA mentioned in the vid) but they gave up due to overwhelming apathy from riders.
I have never heard of these anywhere. I'm in Indiana in the US, never heard of anything like this. I have a dual sport too, Yamaha XT 225, the Serow. So no clubs for dual sports I've heard of. I have ridden by myself a lot over the years.
Same, I’m in Australia and haven’t heard of them either. I also ride alone because I don’t have any friends or family who ride
@cooganbeggs4942 I taught my son's when they were younger, they got their MSF course down and their endorsements here too. I have a few OIF veterans groups I ride with but more often than not I'm always riding by myself. On or off road
@ your sons are lucky! I had no one to teach me in my younger days so developed all kinds of bad habits over decades and now I’m trying to undo everything and learn from scratch from the internet. I love riding alone tbh but it’s always in the back of my mind that something can go wrong
@@cooganbeggs4942 take an MSF course. It helps. Beginner or advanced course. That's what I did for my twins both of my son's.
Motorcycling NSW and Motorcycling Australia are writing nasty letters back and forth to each other and no doubt using lawyers. And whenever I want to ride a club day at my local MX track the sign on costs keeps escalating. Its broken as far as I'm concerned - how are young kids meant to get involved in racing these days
Houston has a coalition that oversees NF trails with the national Forest service, organizes volunteers, writes grants and does fund raising. There are hiking, biking, equestrian and what are called multiuser trails the latter are the motorized trails but they are not exclusive but are as the name implies while the others are exclusive. Most of the maintenance is done by forest service trained volunteers.
In my local area (North Idaho) the conflict in shared trail systems is that some irresponsible riders don’t stay on designated trails and dig out random paths all over the mountain which are unsightly and not to mention the erosion issues that result. I feel there is a lack of education to those riders of unintended consequences for those actions. That being closure of riding areas.
Perhaps when it comes to our segment of motorcycling (enduro riding, dual sporting, ADV riders), we are essentially solo riders. Note that I left out motocross and closed dirt track riding. We do band together, but it's more often out of safety than a shared experience, unless it's a close knit group of friends. I'll admit to having my own apathy towards paid membership clubs for off road riding, with the exception of VIHSS/VIDRA because of the competition events. And yes, we tend to only loudly rally when our riding areas are under threat of closure, but not many of us want to be involved with stewardship as a club.
It's good that you also touched on electric bikes near the end. I own an electric trials bike, and I found it more reassuring to ride this bike during the wildfire season than my gas bike. Battery technology and range will compete and surpass gas bikes easily within my riding lifetime (I'm close to 50).
Dallas and I have been discussing these issues for years, he's sure the typical rider tends to be your anti-authority independent spirit which makes any group action and advocacy difficult. I'm inclined to agree! But bring on the e-bikes. I'll definitely get one when the range is good enough. And there's good traction control so they don't spin so much in loose terrain.
@@crosstrainingenduro You two brought up many good and valid points in your video. However, the majority might not be as hooligan as it sounds. You have the small handful of vocal troublemakers who make the rest of us look bad.
Also, I have the Electric Motion ePure Race which has a legit clutch, and it makes all the difference.
For us here in Australia, the biggest dagger in the heart of our sport happened years ago when we allowed our elected officials to declare Off Road Riding an ILLEGAL activity.
To require Street Focused regulation will never allow us to grow.
We need a system to allow families to ride.
*Imagine a system that allows you to take your 10yr old riding trails!
We have rights to public land and rights to use them in a responsible and managed manner.
We need to lobby all bodies of land management for access.
***Join your local dirtbike club***
Join every club in regions you ride.
Support ALL efforts for Rec Rego, and include Legal means for your families to ride in Legal, managed OHV area's.
The sport is looked upon as a young male hooligan activity ATM. Not family activities.
We have already gone rogue, as we have zero legal right to any single trail on public lands.
The sport will grow if we can shed the stereotype.
Not sure about off road riding being declared illegal, Paul.... unless you mean unlicensed riders or mx bikes? We've actually had signs to our Qld state forests welcoming dirt riders but with the caveats of being registered and licensed. It would be good to have that rec reg like other states though so you can slap a headlight on a non-ADR bike and still ride. Kids in public areas? Massive insurance issue for the government. There would need to be legislative changes to provide for under age riding, but of course we've never advocated for this sort of change.
Bro that’s simply not true! Off-road riding has not been declared illegal in Australia at all 🤷♂️
@@cooganbeggs4942This is part of the issue… a misunderstanding of what has happened. It IS totally illegal to ride off-road in both state and national parks of Australia. This means riding on anything but a gazetted, formed, and maintained road is illegal. It is also why you must have a road licence and a registered motorbike. The single tracks I cut in my younger years are totally illegal, and 80% of the tracks I ride today are illegal. In some parts of my state parks have setup cameras on single tracks to fine riders. Unfortunately, clubs cannot exist and promote illegal activities.
Going rogue in the UK happens a lot. The local councils close trails yet make no provision for riding somewhere. As the video say, we are already wired up to be independent people who just want to ride. This means people will end up
riding anywhere. Some places this is fine, others very inappropriate. The battle goes on! If they want to stop riding, they have to ban the sale of dirt bikes.
Dirtbikers and 4X4 enthusiasts declared war on the huge timber company properties, now every single road is gated state wide, 1000's of access roads all closed. Everyone got closed out of what used to be open to public use.
Mainly really it was 4X4 rebels mud bogging the roads fender deep and they tear the gates out with winches still.
They dont view private property as private property.
A Starg Varg digs just as big a trench as a CR500. Its just quieter.
This canada or somewhere else?
I only joined a club in my area (Ontario) because there is no other way to really ride trails anymore. Having grown up riding trails my entire early life, what really shaped me, those were cottage country roads, logging roads and such. Now, I don't see access to logging roads even being welcome, even though they are marked as "accessible by motorized vehicles." And don't get me started on the odd wording about horseback riders and their rights when it comes to trails.
Excellent content as usual!
Im from the Philippines, and here in my island, we have a few official groups who organize trail rides and events. And yes, its free work for them.
We're a tad lucky here as the government does not really give a damn which part of the mountains we ride.
Magandang balita sa Pilipinas 😎
@@crosstrainingenduro it is good news for us :)
Looking forward to more great vids from your channel
that is a great conversation to be having, im in florida now, coming from new england, usa, and i thought id see a lot more places to ride but even dedicated tracks have closed due to declined interest in the sport(mx in particular). lots of people riding ebikes on footpaths tho, it skirts all the rules and nobody cares enough to stop em. also, i agree, battery tech is not there yet, once we have something with comparable p/w, even Half what we get from gas, were gonna go nuts. sound reductions are a huge part of the public acceptance and its not just a comfort-level concern, people have better ability to communicate and detect or alert riders of dangers. a rider rippin rev bomb wheelies just to be a dick is not an issue anymore cuz it just becomes a slow unicycle... SPEAKING OF WHICH have you guys seen these crazy off-road electric unicycles?!? please speak on it!!
Good informative and thought-provoking video, even though it doesn't really apply to me since I live in Germany and off-road riding is illegal everywhere except for a few small tracks.
Didn't know that clubs actually have the ability to be heard in governmental stuff.
If we were allowed to ride in forests with electric bikes, I would immediately sell my beta 😂 the paranoia of riding illegal really takes the fun away for me.
Because you talked about what an electric bicycle is:
In Germany a bicycle with electric drive that can be ridden without insurance or license has limited power output 250W and 25kmh top speed.
Everything else with higher power/top speed has to drive on roads just like a scooter/motorcycle and needs a license plate or a special insurance-plate if below 45kmh.
Very very tough situation in western Europe! I think we have identical laws here for e-bikes although lots of owners disable the restrictions and ride around at 60 to 80kmh...
Rules are slow to come into being for all levels of E bikes in the US, people buy a 50mph Surron that is illegal on road, on OHV trail, on bike paths...............the thought being if its illegal no matter where it goes? Its fine to ride anywhere you want. EMTB class 1 there's lots of place to ride. Germany sounds like it really clamped down and hard. ..........enforcement of existing E bike rules is close to non existent around here anyway. Its not a priority.
in my country we have pure freedom to ride wherever you want, if you slim enough to squeeze through the doorway of closed cottage village _(to ride in their forest)_ - you good to go 👌 on the bicycle i even get into closed military town, on gated exit solder was very confused 😅
Here in the U.S. it's pretty straightforwardly political. Conservative states tend to have more state forest areas open for powersport use, and states run by Democrats regulate against ATV's and dirt bike use. Politicians appealing to their voter base.
Yep. Democracy in action. As many say, it's messy, open to abuse, makes changes very slowly, and is inefficient. But for most of us it's the best of a bad range of political options. 😂
Electric isn't the final solution, noise is just an easy excuse although some guys bikes are way way too loud. I say it isn't the solution having had plenty of arguments with the "public" while trying to ride a Mountain bike including finding sabotaged trails does seem more and more people will only except what they want, unfortunately the town/city moving to the country stereotype does exist with some base behind it.
Hate to say it but a bit of noise might be helpful for the morons who always end up walking on "the trail", electric dirt bikes are capable of much higher speeds than a Mountain bike on the flat, some noise and most of the morons that don't read signs even when they exist might hear you.
Unfortunately in Qld, the sport at a grass and even a pro level is not great. Compounded by how difficult it is to find land also. The idea of being part of a club has suffered. I’m not sure even what the attendance for clubs like RTCB is even like. The major factor for me though compared to the 90’s and early 2000’s, is the impact of social media, we have become lazy and lost our focus on the self fulfilment you get by just getting out for a ride for the fun of it, and not feeling compelled to f’ing record everything
I see adventure/ light dual sport social clubs doing very well where I live. But they really are social clubs with a slight motorcycle problem. The true off-road guys tend to just group together and groups of four or five and go cut trail and ride.
Haven't watched any of your videos for a long time.
I'm thinking of buying a trials bike. As my injuries from young take effect. Scaphoid is nasty.
Are there cheap(ish) Chinese trials bikes? Man the things are real hard to get a bargain on.
No idea, stopped keeping track of trials models years ago.
I'm sorry, which Canadian clubs are we talking about? I've been riding with my friend for almost 10 years (Quebec: Jack Rabbit, Rowdon, Macasa and so on) and have barely seen anyone riding in groups. I didn't even know they existed as a class, let alone some private courses and so on.
Clubs in BC and Ontario.
From what I’ve seen in the United States, the public wins over the dirtbike riders everytime. I guess it could be the riders aren’t fighting enough? But to me it seems the government agree’s with the public and would love to shut down all riding area’s.
In the video Dallas says the nature of dirt riding tends to attract people not interested in the boring hard work needed to run clubs and advocate at a government level.... and to be effective (as in parts of Canada) it needed to start many years ago to counter the advocacy of green groups to close down areas. 😢
Clubs were never a thing for our club :)
The reason freedom loving outdoors men/woman and dirt bike riders don't want to be a part of the clubs is because we don't want to be a part of politics. We don't want to control other people. We don't want to dictate how other people live. But that leaves us up against huge groups of Karen's and Ken's that do want to control and dictate how we can live our life and how public lands can be used. I have just fallen back to not asking where I can ride and just doing what I want. Free men do not ask for permission.
And the whole electric bike and loud pipes hurting is all a bunch of BS. Those Karen's use the noise to complain because it's easy, but don't be fooled they don't want anyone else to use the trails in anyway that they do not. And they are not riding 80hp electric bikes.
Government. That is all.
1. Riding single trail on Australian public land is illegal!! Clubs cannot support illegal activities; and 2. Kids today cannot afford a modern $16K bike, a trailer, a car, and all the dirt bike gear. Only to be fined by police/parks or find there best track destroyed by an excavator.
Free clubs are great (like SingleTrack Squids here in Colorado). All the different "paid" clubs or offroad groups are annoying. Each has their own agenda but each wants $20-50 a year. If I had to join every paid club or rider group for all the areas I ride in just one state (Colorado), I would be paying hundreds of dollars. Each club does not like the other club or has different agendas, so you end up with many paid clubs or riding groups not working together but always wanting you to join. Makes no sense. Just ends up being dirt bike politics that you pay a yearly fee for. F k that.
All of the OHV clubs in CO (trail advocacy groups, not social clubs) don't have different agendas. They have the same agenda and just maintain different riding areas (maintaining existing trails and opening new trails) which costs money. They are operating as non-profit businesses and that comes with boring hard costs for things like insurance, software, tools, fuel, storage, etc. They are angels and they all need money and volunteers.
As soon as a Club (offroad) starts to enquire with Government land management the red tape lashes us down.
Riding with a few mates, they wouldnt know where we go, unless intercepted of course.
Do you know cases where that has happened? The reports I get from clubs actively advocating for riders with government departments seem to get anything ranging from postive results to just no response.... but not an actively negative response. I'd be keen to hear details of where that has happened though.
The comment just before yours was one of the good news stories:
We have a club in Georgia, its growing and going strong. It is a ton of work, but we are making a positive impact for Georgia’s public riding area’s. We have managed to stop the closing of a few public ride area’s, got one re-opened that was closed, and are working with the USFS to gain back some trails/miles that were lost due to lack of maintenance. We do seem to fit the mold you described in that we have ~200 members, but about 40 or so dedicated souls that come to do the work on the public trails. One part for us that doesn’t seem to follow what you have seen is we are open to electric motorcycles as well as ATVs. Basically our viewpoint is if you are willing to come out and put in the sweat equity then you are more than welcome with us. We do regularly meet with the public officials along with other user groups to keep a voice at the table when discussions about public lands are going on. Being at those discussions is critical for so many reasons. Over time it seems like we are improving our image with those other user groups but its a slow process and you need to stay the course, be willing to take a loss in a discussion in order to keep the overall goal of keeping ride area’s open while not loosing your cool. Not always easy.
New England USA - Local clubs are almost dead with the tightening of environmental and economic pressure. Even clubs that have been around for 30years on their own private land are getting forced out due to karen neighbors complaining about the noise and being slapped with frivolous law suits and subject to belligerent local bureaucratic pressure.
ELECTRIC IS THE FUTURE for trail riding in southern New England. There is no chance for ICE bikes, that ship sailed 15years ago
I worked my ass off in the bs corporate world my whole life. 7 years ago I finally bought my own property so I can now ride in peace. I’m now 116 years old and having some trouble kick starting my old XR250R but still enjoy getting out there when I can 🫡