It seems like RUclips is deleting some comments from this video (not sure why). Sorry about that - it is not me! John David and Tumblyhome Caroline P, I read your comments and appreciated your thoughts, especially the context from the new Plath bio.
Hi, Courtney. When I checked back and saw my comment was gone, I was terrified I might have said something inappropriate by commenting about Finkelstein's book, so thanks for letting me know that it was just a RUclips glitch. I was considering e-mailing you to apologize, but I'll just leave this note instead. I wanted to let you know that I value your insight in this video as in others. Have a happy and safe reading week.
@@NicholasOfAutrecourt Not at all, and I'm sorry that some comments are being deleted. I've never read Finkelstein before, but I did look up the book you mentioned, which I'm honestly not sure I'd be able to make it through. 🙂 Hope you are well!
Powerful reading and discussion, Courtney. Heaney’s comment is especially meaningful to me. Based on your pinned comment, it sounds like folks have already mentioned the very different but also quite nuanced discussion of this poem throughout Red Comet. I still have a huge amount of the book to get through, but so far it is astounding and thoughtful. I wouldn’t say it lets Plath off the hook at all, but it does complicate the story a bit.
Yes, someone did mention more about the personal context of when the poem was written, although there is only so much one can say in a comment vs. reading the book. Cathie from The Grimm Reader also pointed me to an article in Contemporary Literature about references to the Holocaust in Plath's poetry that I am keen to read. I will be very curious to hear more about Red Comet when you have finished it. Thank you for watching. ❤️️
@@HannahsBooks Here's the citation for it: Al Strangeways, "'The Boot in the Face': The Problem of the Holocaust in the Poetry of Sylvia Plath," Contemporary Literature 37, no. 3 (1996): 370-390.
This is a great discussion! You should have seen my face contouring as I listened to you read the poem. I haven’t read Plath’s poetry so I was not aware of this one but now I am.
Great talk, and thanks for the articles mentioned, I will have to read them in full. I remember studying this poem in university and having these thoughts, and waited for someone to bring it up in class--everyone loved it. Though I do like Plath and a lot of her writing, this has always been a poem I didn't feel right about. I have never heard of Jacob Glatstein before, but that poem is heavy to hear--I will have to look him up. Thank you for sharing this!
Seems strange that no one mentioned it. Maybe people just assume Plath is Jewish if she's making those kinds of references and don't question it as a result? I feel like reading this poem helped me to understand why comparing things to Hitler and/or the Holocaust has become such a popular go-to in argument.
@@CourtneyFerriter I was think that exact thought when watching this. I always thought comparing Hitler to something less as evil really undermines how evil his actions were, and degrades the innocent people that suffered under him. I appreciate you bringing that to attention with this.
@@attention5638 Thank you 🙂 That is something I try to emphasize with my students (in fact, there is a logical fallacy based on it called reductio ad Hitlerum)
This is a really thoughtful post Courtney and thank you . I never adored or worshipped Plath as many of my peers in the feminist movement did and Daddy is a key reason why . It's a work of genius only if you ignore the oversimplified and overself absorbed tropes of the Holocaust ..and set the tone for a binary view of the Plath / Hughes relationship ... I understand she said at the time it wasn't about her , but given the rest of her output I find it hard to believe ... your point about simplifying and personifying evil can also be applied to genius and Plath's deification has meant it's hard to critique her ..to be fair I am sure her illness prevented her from taking a more reflective approach ... and I do love the rhythm and sound of this poem . Thank you again .
Thank you for your comments, Hester! I agree about the rhythm and sound of the poem and I can see why people like Plath's work for that reason. I've heard a couple of people mention that this poem is discussed throughout the new Plath bio Red Comet, which has me curious, but since it's something like 1100 pages long, I probably won't read it unless I have to for the BookTube Prize. It also seems difficult to critique her in light of her mental unwellness, and I'm sure you are right that that kept her from being more reflective.
Hello Courtney, I cried at your last poem. That was a wonderful discussion on this important day.I thought I knew the poem but I read it quite a while ago And did not understand cultural appropriation at that time.I lost family in the holocaust.
This use of the Holocaust is egregious. I have read little Plath, and was surprised to learn of where she goes with this one. I really appreciate your discussion.
Thank you for your comments. I'd read an odd poem by Plath here and there and was looking forward to reading this volume because it seems very highly praised by people, but I just can't get past some of the content.
I also wanted to add that Although I am not as eloquent a speaker as you, I also honored the day on my channel by suggesting a few books. Shalom and Aloha
@@CourtneyFerriter I didnt know where to leave my follow up thoughts about Plath's use of Holocaust imagery in her poetry now that I have finished reading _Red Comet_. Since it is the only Plath bio I have read, my thoughts are limited to what I learned from Heather Clark's book. Clark does several things to explain/ justify(?) Plath's use of the Holocaust in "Daddy" and other poems from _Ariel_. She seems to connect Plath's time in a mental hospital and the grotesque and inhumane treatments advocated by one of her doctors there (who advocated the use of hypothermia to treat psychosis even after a patient of his died) and the misuse of shock treatment to Plath's near obsession with the Holocaust. Plath was very socially conscious and felt, like many artists of her generation, that the horrors of WWII (the Holocaust and atomic weapons) obligated her to confront those topics and bring attention to them. Clark also attempts to show that Plath may have believed herself to be the descendent of Jewish ancestors through her paternal grandmother's family though she offers no solid proof that this was true. It is also true that Plath had several romantic relationships and friendships with Jewish men and women which may have made her (given her beliefs about her own ancestry) feel more comfortable using Holocaust imagery. Finally, on at least one occasion one of her editors cut a reference to the bombing of Hiroshima from a poem (not "Daddy") that also included Holocaust references that he later felt narrowed the poem's scope and contributed to the criticism of her poems. I had indicated in another comment somewhere else that I would share what I gathered about Plath and her use of the Holocaust in her poems. I am certainly not trying to change your mind (because I'm not sure what I think yet) but just wanted to share what I thought were Clark's views on the topic.
@@BookishTexan Thank you, Brian! I appreciate your insight (especially as I didn't want to commit to reading the tome that is Red Comet) and Clark's research/explanation. Still not sure that makes it okay, but it at least knowing all of that makes her use of the Holocaust seem not quite as cavalier (maybe?). You can be sure I will never be teaching Ariel or "Daddy" in my American lit courses, though! 😂
@@CourtneyFerriter Yeah, I'm not sure it makes a difference for me either. I think "Daddy" is a brilliantly constructed and written poem, but the appropriation of Holocaust images etc. does detract from it for me. When I did a Plath poem for my "Poetry For Beginners" series I went with "Full Fathom Five" in part because it appealed to me the most, but also because of her use of Holocaust imagery that made me uncomfortable.
“Daddy” may be the finest poem of the 20th century - in part, because of its brazenness, audacity and willingness to complicate the concept of suffering. We must agree to disagree on Plath’s work.
@@CourtneyFerriter I wonder if they'e being held for you to authorise? That occasionally happens and it's a pain to track down where they are on one's channel management.
I agree that comparing the Jewish holocaust to an abusive father is kind of offensive to the holocaust. Not very into poetry myself, I don't know much about poetry, but the poem as a whole seems not that great to me. However, I am also not very into the "choose another people", because although it is probably not supposed to be taken literally, moving the pain to other group of people does not help either...
I can see why people like the sound of Plath's poetry, as there is a lot of alliteration and assonance, but I favor more experimental poetry myself. Yes, I see what you are saying about the "choose another people" line in the Molodowsky poem, and you are right that it's probably not meant to be taken literally.
It seems like RUclips is deleting some comments from this video (not sure why). Sorry about that - it is not me! John David and Tumblyhome Caroline P, I read your comments and appreciated your thoughts, especially the context from the new Plath bio.
Hi, Courtney. When I checked back and saw my comment was gone, I was terrified I might have said something inappropriate by commenting about Finkelstein's book, so thanks for letting me know that it was just a RUclips glitch. I was considering e-mailing you to apologize, but I'll just leave this note instead. I wanted to let you know that I value your insight in this video as in others. Have a happy and safe reading week.
@@NicholasOfAutrecourt Not at all, and I'm sorry that some comments are being deleted. I've never read Finkelstein before, but I did look up the book you mentioned, which I'm honestly not sure I'd be able to make it through. 🙂 Hope you are well!
Powerful reading and discussion, Courtney. Heaney’s comment is especially meaningful to me. Based on your pinned comment, it sounds like folks have already mentioned the very different but also quite nuanced discussion of this poem throughout Red Comet. I still have a huge amount of the book to get through, but so far it is astounding and thoughtful. I wouldn’t say it lets Plath off the hook at all, but it does complicate the story a bit.
Yes, someone did mention more about the personal context of when the poem was written, although there is only so much one can say in a comment vs. reading the book. Cathie from The Grimm Reader also pointed me to an article in Contemporary Literature about references to the Holocaust in Plath's poetry that I am keen to read. I will be very curious to hear more about Red Comet when you have finished it. Thank you for watching. ❤️️
@@CourtneyFerriter Ooh. I’ll be looking up the essay Cathie referenced!
@@HannahsBooks Here's the citation for it: Al Strangeways, "'The Boot in the Face': The Problem of the Holocaust in the Poetry of Sylvia Plath," Contemporary Literature 37, no. 3 (1996): 370-390.
@@CourtneyFerriter Thank you so much!
"Choose another people." Wow.
I clicked the link to find the rest of that poem. It's almost unbearably sad.
Thank you for sharing this.
I found both of them quite striking and hard-hitting, especially given that they were written in 1945 and 1946.
This is a great discussion! You should have seen my face contouring as I listened to you read the poem. I haven’t read Plath’s poetry so I was not aware of this one but now I am.
"Daddy" is probably the most egregious example in the collection, but it's not the only one 🙄
Thank you for sharing your thoughts Courtney, and for sharing those haunting poems. I'm crying right along with you.
Thank you, Melissa ❤️️
Great talk, and thanks for the articles mentioned, I will have to read them in full. I remember studying this poem in university and having these thoughts, and waited for someone to bring it up in class--everyone loved it. Though I do like Plath and a lot of her writing, this has always been a poem I didn't feel right about. I have never heard of Jacob Glatstein before, but that poem is heavy to hear--I will have to look him up. Thank you for sharing this!
Seems strange that no one mentioned it. Maybe people just assume Plath is Jewish if she's making those kinds of references and don't question it as a result? I feel like reading this poem helped me to understand why comparing things to Hitler and/or the Holocaust has become such a popular go-to in argument.
@@CourtneyFerriter I was think that exact thought when watching this. I always thought comparing Hitler to something less as evil really undermines how evil his actions were, and degrades the innocent people that suffered under him. I appreciate you bringing that to attention with this.
@@attention5638 Thank you 🙂 That is something I try to emphasize with my students (in fact, there is a logical fallacy based on it called reductio ad Hitlerum)
Great discussion. And thanks for the links to additional reading.
Thank you for watching, Jen. 🙂
This is a really thoughtful post Courtney and thank you . I never adored or worshipped Plath as many of my peers in the feminist movement did and Daddy is a key reason why . It's a work of genius only if you ignore the oversimplified and overself absorbed tropes of the Holocaust ..and set the tone for a binary view of the Plath / Hughes relationship ... I understand she said at the time it wasn't about her , but given the rest of her output I find it hard to believe ... your point about simplifying and personifying evil can also be applied to genius and Plath's deification has meant it's hard to critique her ..to be fair I am sure her illness prevented her from taking a more reflective approach ... and I do love the rhythm and sound of this poem . Thank you again .
Thank you for your comments, Hester! I agree about the rhythm and sound of the poem and I can see why people like Plath's work for that reason. I've heard a couple of people mention that this poem is discussed throughout the new Plath bio Red Comet, which has me curious, but since it's something like 1100 pages long, I probably won't read it unless I have to for the BookTube Prize. It also seems difficult to critique her in light of her mental unwellness, and I'm sure you are right that that kept her from being more reflective.
Thanks for sharing this. Nuanced and great articulation of the argument.
Thank you, Fraser! 🥰
Hello Courtney, I cried at your last poem. That was a wonderful discussion on this important day.I thought I knew the poem but I read it quite a while ago And did not understand cultural appropriation at that time.I lost family in the holocaust.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Marilyn ❤️️ The Jacob Glatstein poem especially really hit home for me.
Beautiful poems. Thanks for sharing this, Courtney.
Thank you, Bethanne ❤️️
This use of the Holocaust is egregious. I have read little Plath, and was surprised to learn of where she goes with this one. I really appreciate your discussion.
Thank you for your comments. I'd read an odd poem by Plath here and there and was looking forward to reading this volume because it seems very highly praised by people, but I just can't get past some of the content.
@@CourtneyFerriter looking forward to hearing any more thoughts you may share about it.
Thank you so much for sharing Courtney!
Thank you for watching, Summer!
Very thoughtful and thought-provoking. Thanks.
Thank you for watching, Alba!
I also wanted to add that Although I am not as eloquent a speaker as you, I also honored the day on my channel by suggesting a few books. Shalom and Aloha
I will watch it this evening and thank you, Marilyn!
Great deal discussion Courtney
Thank you (as always) for watching, Brian 🙂
@@CourtneyFerriter I didnt know where to leave my follow up thoughts about Plath's use of Holocaust imagery in her poetry now that I have finished reading _Red Comet_. Since it is the only Plath bio I have read, my thoughts are limited to what I learned from Heather Clark's book.
Clark does several things to explain/ justify(?) Plath's use of the Holocaust in "Daddy" and other poems from _Ariel_. She seems to connect Plath's time in a mental hospital and the grotesque and inhumane treatments advocated by one of her doctors there (who advocated the use of hypothermia to treat psychosis even after a patient of his died) and the misuse of shock treatment to Plath's near obsession with the Holocaust. Plath was very socially conscious and felt, like many artists of her generation, that the horrors of WWII (the Holocaust and atomic weapons) obligated her to confront those topics and bring attention to them. Clark also attempts to show that Plath may have believed herself to be the descendent of Jewish ancestors through her paternal grandmother's family though she offers no solid proof that this was true. It is also true that Plath had several romantic relationships and friendships with Jewish men and women which may have made her (given her beliefs about her own ancestry) feel more comfortable using Holocaust imagery. Finally, on at least one occasion one of her editors cut a reference to the bombing of Hiroshima from a poem (not "Daddy") that also included Holocaust references that he later felt narrowed the poem's scope and contributed to the criticism of her poems.
I had indicated in another comment somewhere else that I would share what I gathered about Plath and her use of the Holocaust in her poems. I am certainly not trying to change your mind (because I'm not sure what I think yet) but just wanted to share what I thought were Clark's views on the topic.
@@BookishTexan Thank you, Brian! I appreciate your insight (especially as I didn't want to commit to reading the tome that is Red Comet) and Clark's research/explanation. Still not sure that makes it okay, but it at least knowing all of that makes her use of the Holocaust seem not quite as cavalier (maybe?). You can be sure I will never be teaching Ariel or "Daddy" in my American lit courses, though! 😂
@@CourtneyFerriter Yeah, I'm not sure it makes a difference for me either. I think "Daddy" is a brilliantly constructed and written poem, but the appropriation of Holocaust images etc. does detract from it for me. When I did a Plath poem for my "Poetry For Beginners" series I went with "Full Fathom Five" in part because it appealed to me the most, but also because of her use of Holocaust imagery that made me uncomfortable.
Thank you for this, Courtney.
Thanks for watching 🙂
“Daddy” may be the finest poem of the 20th century - in part, because of its brazenness, audacity and willingness to complicate the concept of suffering. We must agree to disagree on Plath’s work.
One person's brazenness and audacity is another's chutzpah, it seems. 🙂
Hmmm, seems like my comment posted today has also been swallowed by YT.
Sorry about that, Marc; I have no idea why that keeps happening with this video. I didn't even get an email notification on that one.
@@CourtneyFerriter I wonder if they'e being held for you to authorise? That occasionally happens and it's a pain to track down where they are on one's channel management.
@@MarcNash I did look for them in RUclips Studio, but still nothing 🙁 Thanks for the suggestion, though!
I agree that comparing the Jewish holocaust to an abusive father is kind of offensive to the holocaust. Not very into poetry myself, I don't know much about poetry, but the poem as a whole seems not that great to me. However, I am also not very into the "choose another people", because although it is probably not supposed to be taken literally, moving the pain to other group of people does not help either...
I can see why people like the sound of Plath's poetry, as there is a lot of alliteration and assonance, but I favor more experimental poetry myself. Yes, I see what you are saying about the "choose another people" line in the Molodowsky poem, and you are right that it's probably not meant to be taken literally.