South Africa's Berettas: The Vektor Z88 and SP1
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- Опубликовано: 24 фев 2019
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In the 1980s, the South African military and police were using substantial numbers of different handguns, and began looking for a way to consolidate to simply maintenance and logistics. Studying the different guns they had, they decided to pursue a copy of the Beretta Model 92. No foreign manufacturer was willing to undertake production for them because of the international sanctions then in force against South Africa, so instead Musgrave and Lyttelton Engineering opted to reverse engineer the gun and produce them domestically. A batch of 20 Berettas were used in a remarkable program which successfully recreated a full technical data package for the pistol, and production was begun by Vektor under the designation Z88. Aside from changes to markings and grip panels, the Z88 was a faithful and parts-interchangeable copy of the M92.
Beretta was not happy about this, of course, but attempts to bring a lawsuit against Vektor were equally stalled by the sanctions, which prevented South Africans form traveling internationally. Eventually, a settlement was negotiated to allow Vektor to produce the Z88 for use within South Africa (but not for export). Shortly thereafter the sanctions were lifted, and Vektor decided to modify the gun enough to give it a new name and offer it for export (and domestic) sale.
This new pistol was the SP1, and it changed the profile of the Beretta, replaced the distinctive open slide with a fully enclosed (and simpler to machine) slide, and replaced the slide mounted decocker with a frame mounted manual safety. These were produced and marketed in several variations (compact, service, target, and competition) in 9mm and also as the SP2 in .40 S&W. Production of both ceased in 1998, when Vektor shut down all small arms production.
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I'm an officer in the SA Police Service, so from personal experience I can confirm that the Z88 is a absolutely excellent weapon.
I was a saw gunner, so now I carry an FNX. It weighs less.
although I must commend the true heroes that are not, when the police help here they do a good job.Thank you for your service :)
@@Negasta Terrible what is happening to our farmers.
Sr i am a law enforce in miy country i have a Beretta 92fs!!!, and a firend has the z88!!! and this is a cool gun, a question in SA is still making this gun?? or the vector? are madeing in South Africa in the Denel factory????
@@lovingmyglock21 I know they don't make the Z88 anymore but they do make the Vektor SP1 and SP2 which are improved versions of the same gun.
i am a police official in South Africa and we are still issued with the Z88. My serial no is Q012xxx. I shot about 20000 shots with it and it is still running fine
damn dude... much respect. I know you have a story or two you could tell us about wtf is really going on down there... would you mind divulging one or two? I'll probably never get a chance to hear a real anecdote from someone in your position. do you think a civil war is going to happen? I've heard there are large groups of afrikaners stockpiling guns because they all think it's gonna go kinetic soon
I sure hope they are. I wish we could send them as much as possible. I wish we could do the same for the Brits.
@@jjmarcos Leaders of the ANC (Ramaphosa) and EFF (see Julius Malema on RUclips) incite racial hatred frequently and as far as I know refuse to condemn farm murders and torture - including of women and chuildren - which are on the increase in July 2020. The ANC government is threatening to prohibit gun-ownership "for purposes of self defence" and disarm private citizens. I could fill this column.
@Homegrown jones SA and Rhodesia need to be given back to the people who built those countries and made them what they were.
@Homegrown jones fully agree. I was redpilled about south africa by Stefan molyneaux before he got kicked off RUclips. The situation is dire, I hope they win. The way the liberal media across the world gives 100% support to these communist movements is pathetic.
Man, should have used that excuse. I can't go to court, I'm on house arrest.
Doesn't work inside your country. You go to a different country, commit a crime and go home unless the crime is real bad they aren't going to come get you. Especially if the country you live in and the one you commit your crime in has a poor relationship and won't cooperate with extradition.
I can’t be extradited if I’m on the no fly list.
Doesn't really even need to be a global pariah like DPRK. Unless it's murder or something considered serious they won't deport you if you are there legally.
I mean in this case if you think about it all they did was copy something without license which is likely to get you sent to white collar prison. I mean they only wanted money from SA not prison time. Prison time doesn't help Beretta and they were probably obligated to try and prosecute them.
I mean Benelli and Beretta license their guns to people in Turkey. I'm sure they would license them to SA if they were allowed.
@@leathery420 Take it easy, I was joking. No need to write a novel.
@@three-stripes Well duh. You can both enjoy a joke and point out why it wouldn't work. Jeez.
I remember those SP-1s were an amazing deal here in Germany for a while in the late 90's they were like half the price of a Beretta. And I really wanted one, but was far to young.
Beretta: “Stop copying our pistols”
Vektor: “No bru”
Beretta: “We’ll sue you”
Vektor: “Diplomatic Immunity”
"It's just been revoked" ?
@@clintcannon1902 Iuv u for this
@@napoleonwilson6499 I thought that's where they were heading with that. 🤓
@@clintcannon1902 Actually Beretta eventually gave up and told Vektor that they would stop bothering them if Vektor engraved something like "Designed in Italy by Beretta" into the slide of every Z88 and give Beretta a small percentage of the profits,
@@Negasta I spoofed the movie Lethal Weapon...its a joke.
Your 'diversion away' was actually a pretty important point. Teamwork almost always produces better results than lone wolf manufacturing efforts.
Carried a Z88 for 12 years, trusted it with my life! Also had an SP1 for a while.
SAPS?
How much is it?
As with most of your videos, now I want one. It's a real problem
twatts45 The worst part about that is that there are probably a lot of viewers thinking the same way (i.e. me) which then make them scarcer/more expensive on Gunbroker.
You wont go wrong with one, in the same class as a cz75 which I also carried... dont ask be to choose which I found as better lol
@@shaminy1823 yep I thought of that too
Furreal
The real problem is the nearly 2million other subs!
I was also a policeman and owned a vector z88 for 21 years. It was actually an improvement on the berretta 92 as alot of the berrettas had a problem with the slides cracking and the vector didn't inherit this problem. Before the z88, we carried the P38, some berretta 92s, 92fs some HI powers and lastly the cz75 was also used
You forgot about the absolute pieces of shit, Stars...
Hi Ian. i am fom south africa, i served in the SADF and he SAP....i was issued a vektor z88 as my side arm as a military policeman while in the SADF, we did also get to use the vektor SP1 for a while but my go to handgun was the Z88, i was in the SADF for 5 years from 1993 to 1998, i then transfered to the SAP from 1998 till present, i was issued with a z88 in the police, i then also got issued a beretta 92 when i worked at diffirent units .....i bought a taurus pt92 as a personal gun and all my police mags i modified to fit both guns so on duty and off duty i carrid the "same" style of gun, i sold my taurus pt92 nd bought a glock 17....a very good frend of mine also an ex policeman bought a vektor SP1 brand new when he left the police and never carried his SP1... he is now emmigrating to America and gave me his SP1(still BRAND NEW IN THE BOX) he fired 1 mag through the gun the day he got the licence for it and the SP1 lived in his safe for like almost 20 years...so i now own the brand new SP1 and i managed to find 2ND hand Z88 and i also own that now, so my nostalgic trip down memory lane has 2 of the BEST hand guns made in south africa,,,,all i need is a Vektor LM 5 OR 6 and i will be sorted for ever....your channel is awesome sir THANKS for all the awesome content Ian
An exact copy of the Model 92 with fully interchangeable parts just from some samples is indeed very impressive.
SA: Let us build your pistols!
Beretta: No way
SA: We weren't asking.
The entire world said "f*ck off" to us. We just returned the favor
@Onward Turtle The Czechs and Italians make better guns than the Germans, Beretta 92FS and CZ75 being prime examples.
Did I STUTTER
"So dudes, we need you to copy the Beretta 92"
"Mmkay"
"We need it to be as close as possible"
"Gotcha"
"100% parts interchangeability too"
"No sweat"
Good to know that no matter how good you are at building guns, some South African shop can do it just as well completely blind
The South African arms industry knows their stuff.
Whether it's a gun or armored vehicle, you just know you'll be happy with it.
Seven proxies absolutely and the name vektor i like better than the already awesome name beretta. Such a fascinating story id never heard of these before now i want one more than a beretta!!
And i love berettas...
When the Rhodesians were designing the pookie they originally had a rectangular detector from the south africans. They asked the south africans to make them some round ones, the south Africans informed them this was scientifically impossible, they went to the Rhodesian university and got 2 students to make one in no time at all, bing bang boom Pookie was made
@@sevenproxies4255 As a South African i am proud of our Arms industry
I get to wake up every day to Ian teaching me something new thanks for making great content I always learn something new from your videos
Consistently amazing content. Every morning is like Christmas
Classy guy to literally give us the G11 video on Christmas morning.
I also have a Z88. A few years ago a friend of mine and I started reloading to save on ammunition costs. During the reloading process we read the charts incorrectly and instead of loading 4.2 gr MP200 we loaded 4.2gr MS200 powder. (Something like that - it was 15 years ago but in any case way, way, way overloaded).In any case we went shooting competition with it and..... I remember shooting steel plates with a guy with a .357 Magnum revolver next to me and absolutely destroying him. I remember thinking "357 Magnum my @ss". In any case I fired 30 rounds through my Z88 and on my last round the return spring on the trigger came off. "Mmmm, I thought, that is funny". I holstered the weapon and picked up my brass. All of the brass had the primer about half a millimetre out of the pocket. As control we then fired (01) round out of a Browning High Power. It immediately broke the wooden grip. I know, I know we broke rule number one!. Next Monday I took the Z88 to our local gunsmith to check my firearm. He reset the spring and checked the barrel. No damage at all except for 02 small marks on the frame. 147 grain lead cast bullet with 4.1 gr MS200 behind it. We guestimated (based on the tables) about 1200 feet per second???? In any case enough velocity to knock down a steel plate with one shot while a .357 took 3... I never reloaded again. I also kept carrying that uncomfortable piece of awesomeness because I know it will not let me down.
Just wondering how the mags for it were, you always hear the mags for the 92 were it's Achilles heal.
I never, ever had a problem with the magazines. I also never heard of any SAPS (Police) member ever complaining about the magazines. That is not a issue.
Jitte swarrie! Daai kon harig gewees het :)
@@travissmith2773 No mag issues on the Z or the SP.
As a man who watched this video just because his name is similar to the gun's name (Zata 88)
I didn't understand anything you said about it xD
Mooi man. Groete van Suid Afrika. Regards from South Africa
These are excellent handguns : )
Really liked shooting this gun when I was in the Malaysian navy reserve. Prefer it better than the Glock that we were issued with.
What, this gun are adopted in Malaysia. What unit using this.
@@zuhailishufller8046 we were supplied with this gun at kd Sri klang at pulau indah and when I was with Esscom ship kd tun azizan circa 2015.
@@zuhailishufller8046 The police (especially in peninsula since the police in Malaysian Borneo usually issued with steyr pistol) and some provost/MP unit had them in fairly large number although some military units(like ggk) also had their hands with couple of them.
In the mid 90s they offered the pistol as standard firearms for the police with option to produce them domestically but eventually the police went on with Sig Sauer and Steyr. Still, the police did procured several hundreds SP1 to partly replace the revolver which was then the standard issued firearm for police officers
@@zuhailishufller8046 Grup Gerak Khas of Malaysian Armed Forces, Royal Malaysia Police, Department of Immigration.
Also used by Peruvian Air Force
I could have got a glock whilst in the police and choose to keep my sp1, it was far superior to the glock.
Thanks Ian for the brilliant vid!
I own a Z88 and used to conceal carry it for years and put thousands of rounds through it. It is an extremely reliable pistol and of very high quality.
Mine was made by Lyttelton, before they changed to Vector.
I have my Z88 now for 29 years. She has never let me down, ever. She performs very well under pressure. Older police members has these girls since they joined the police. Will cry the day I go on pension and have to give her back. She was Q066xxx. No vector logo on the first ones.
Im sure you could ask to buy from them and license it under s15?
"...hey can I copy your homework?"
we wuz vikangz
When you let the South African kid copy you and he gets a better grade
For a fee.. Sure.
Another thing to consider. South Afrika's univarsity and tradesman training in those days was world class.
I have fired one of these!! In new Zealand!! 40 s&w, very VERY well built piece of kit! Rock solid, weighs a ton, shoots softer than most anything else I've ever tried. Very thoroughly impressed!
Those are called the Vektor SP2 I believe, pretty uncommon gun. That’s very cool!
I'm also looking for z88 we can I fine store that sell in sa
The sp in sp1 stands for sexy pistol
i was told "sludge puddle"
That angular trigger guard is doing things to me.
GO TEAM VENTURE!
...wait no, er
GO TEAM VEKTOR!!
Total win
Gru wouldve lost to vektor too if v had focussed on 9mil out the barrel instead of squids...maybe not cuz gru has awesomeness on his side
I used to own a TQ stamped Z88, in the late 90's
It was my first semi automatic 9mm and a very well made and accurate pistol.
I can confirm that parts were fully interchangeable between the Z88 and the 92F. I used both Baretta grips and a hammer, to make mine look just like a 92F (those were the days when the 92F was made famous by both the "Die Hard" and the "Lethal Weapon" franchises... So looks were important)
Quite a few og the Z88 and even more SP1 pistols were imported to Denmark, for sporting/target use.
I've even shot the smaller CP1 polymer framed Vektor. The CP1 however was not as ergonomic or comfortable to shoot as the Z88 and the SP1. All well made though.
A few differeces, the flutes on the trigger guard is diagonal on z88 and not horizontal as in beretta. Also trigger guard on z88 is thicker and a rounder tip. The grip also has a different curve at the front. The hammer on the z88 in the video is different from beretta. My own z88 has a beretta hammer. The finish might differ, mine has a matte finish and a black anodized aluminum frame but I believe beretta 92F (from which it is derived) model has a Bruntiton finish. The magazine floor plates also look a bit different. The recoil springs are a bit less stiff than older beretta 92S models and also cz75 springs. If anyone has more info on it I would appreciate more technical details on my favorite gun.
S and SB grip is a bit leaner than the Z
If I see this for a readable price I’m getting it. It’s really cool looking and really a wonder to see. They really did a good job designing it.
These look like incredible guns, SA arms design has always been so wildly high quality
Darn you, Ian. Constantly increasing my list of firearms I want to own. It just so happens they have one of these on gunbroker on auction right now and the bid is already up to $470, no doubt getting influenced by this very video lol. Those things look so cool with the hard angles.
That general version he has looks so nice. A beautiful look to it.
I got to inspect and handle the Z88 when they were initially issued to SAP. Nice piece.
This video as well as all your other videos about South African and Rhodesian weapons are very informative
"Zed" tho. Glad to see Ian knows the British lifehack.
I grew up in Haiti, and I say [zed].😂😂 [zee] can be unnatural at times
canada here, we do the same thing! xD
Ian is trying to pronounce names authentically and the person who owns that handgun would have called it a "Zed 88" because in SA we say "zed" as apposed to "zee".
@@bmstylee we actually do pronounce zebra sort of like that...
Lifehack? It takes more effort (tongue movement) to pronounce it the British way, so if anything the American "zee" is the lifehack.
The SP1 looks super cool. I want one
Was it a Better-etta?
Every time I think a video is going to be boring I am surprised by an amazing story, an interesting mechanism, and something I didn't know.
Smooth viewing. No need to skip, skip, skip. Thanks.
I would like to see a straight up 30 minute video specifically on the sort of meta diatribe you went on at the end there.
I think adding videos with these sorts of meta analysis on a specific country and their place in the gun world, what worked and what didn't and why, would be a side of things I would really enjoy.
dang that is a really good looking gun, the slide gives off a little "desert eagle" vibe with that shape
Yea the SP1's shape makes me think Sig+DEagle.
Nice pistols.
Thanks for the diversion.
Always enjoy the videos.
Firearms history with regular history and a bit of mechanical engineering.
As a Beretta fanboi, this is relevant to my interests. Now I'm on the lookout for one.
bigghoss762 I want a set of those grips. I tried looking for them but my googlefu failed me
@@fathead8933 those grips won't fit on a berreta
Joshua Lance why not? Ian said they were made to be parts interchangeable
@bigghoss762 you can even hire one from a cop for a weekend to "do your business"... Post apartheid SA is a criminal paradise
Yea I’m this thing looks sweet. I wonder how close it feels to the Barrett’s 92fs?
A friend of mine has the SP2 and he absolutely loves it
very cool
A great pistol I carried one for 6 years in the police and found it was better than the glock we were changing to. I choose to keep it instead of changing.
Traffic, Metro, railway?
Saps have PX4's in armory now
totally agree... Z88 was my choice far over the CZ 75...
You must be Metro or STF because they they only police that carry Glock
Great video. Your research and your knowledge is very impressive. Really enjoyed listening to the history of weapons in our country.
SP1 to Beretta 92 is like the Jericho 941 to the CZ75. I like that angular design, very neat
I love how these look, they'd look right at home in a near future sci-fi film or series.
thank you for the diversion,it was enlightening!
thanks!
Thank you for the video. Very well done. Big ups from South-Africa
I've always loved the look of the SP1.
Ian always produces interesting videos about all these different firearms. :)
Ian. The SP1 was issued to the police in extremely limited numbers only to shooting teams and specialised units. The vast overwhelming majority of police officers were issued with Z88s
Thank you , Ian .
I was in the SAPS when the first Z88's was being tested.
We were given the pistol, had to rapid fire, run to the water hole - muddy - drag it through the mud water - run back, change mag, rapid fire.... and repeat it over and over.
And of course note whenever any problems came up.
Only time in my life that I had a brand new pistol that was treated in that way.
Impressive weapon. Very little issues.
Can still disassemble and assemble pistol blindfolded.
Must add - that was during training - 1989 First semester, SAPS College.
I have an SP1-Target and an SP2 the 10mm version. They are very reliable and very accurate.
I never considered the additional aspects of reverse engineering these. Thanks for pointing that out.
- "Which variations of our pistols are you interested in manufacturing?"
- "Yes."
FWIW, its a copy of the 92-FS. Lots of the clones on the market are actually a clone of the 92-S. Which have the mag release on the bottom of the grip. That might be a quirk of how Berreta was issuing production licenses. Usually, Berreta 92 magazines will work in both the 92FS and 92S, but not all.
I'm diggin the updated P-38 SP1
That SP1 looks awesome!
Gorgeous looking gun that SP1
That SP1 is really nice looking pistol.
congrats on the 1000k subs man! ☀⚡🌎💛
The Beretta remains one of the finest pistols ever, as shown by the various clones. I carry a Taurus PT-92 and find it excellent. I'm sure these are just as good.
thanks Ian !!
Those were (and still are) excellent pistols. In the early '90s the SP series was quite popular with the IPSC crowd. Lots of SP2s for those wanting to shoot major. Both the SP1 and SP2 are bricks though, better get a good gunbelt if you are going to carry one of those. Good memories
When I was a SAP reserve in the late early 90's we where issued Walter's they where well past their prime, did not want to put your life behind them, the Z88 where just coming out, so I bought a personal Beretta 92S to take on duty, felt much better then, carried it quite a while, fortunately never needed it on duty, never got to shoot a Z88. But I am fortunate now to have a Vector SP1 in my collection, why did I buy it, because it was made in SA, and so am I :)
Despite the arms embargo, South Africa had military contacts with a number of countries, inclusing Israel, Taiwan, France, Germany and Italy during the seventies and eighties. The story I heard was that Italy sold Model 92 guns to South Africa, despite the embargo. When Beretta won the contract for the US Army in 1985, they immediately realized that contravention of the arms embargo against South Africa could cost them the US contract and they immediately and quietly sold a production licence to the South Africans, and supplied the technical package to make production possible. The tale of an illegally reverse engineered pistol was solely for public consumption. The SP1 was developed, as Ian noted, to enable the South Africans to export the pistol as the licence agreement with Beretta forbade export.
love the chunky slide on the SP1
I own a z88 with the LIW logo on the grip
Lyttleton Engineering Works... Trusted South African
The SP1 looks really nice.
honestly that slide looks cool af
I remember seeing vektor ads in guns and ammo when I was a little kid cool stuff
I own an SP1... Heavy, but very, very fun to shoot. Just as good as a Standard 92/92F/92FS...
The SP1 looks very awesome!!!
That SP1 is a sweeeet beautiful gun
Sadly no longer being made or sold new locally either nowadays...I'm still regretting not buying one for R3000,00 in 1991!
R2,885 in 1994! I just found a receipt in a Gerry Gore gun book I was looking through.
Just won a Z88 auction on Gunbroker and cant wait to add it to my collection!
How does she shoot ?
The Taurus PT92 should get its own video. Its a rare example of a terrific Taurus and its history is quite amazing.
Looking at the design of SP1 i can definitely say that the person(s) responsible for the looks have had unleashed their inner orc :) It looks super-brutal!
Its sad to hear of such a professional and efficient company like vector and LIW being shut down because of ANC incompetence
Different priorities not incompetence
@@lukealadeen7836 ladies and gentlemen the only person ever not to think that the ANC is not incompetent
Holy shit, that is really impressive. Reverse engineered _with parts interchangeability_!
You know, the SP1 is looking very futuristic. Like something off "Blade Runner" or "Total Recall".
GREAT CONTENT BRO
The sp1 pistol gives me retro futurist vibes, Like the pistol people in the past tought we would have in the future. I could very well see it in a Neo-Noir styled movie or comic.
The General's Model is an awesome looking gun :)
I wonder what happened with regards to specs/quality after the license agreement. Considering the amount of reverse engineering, it is quite possible that something was sub-spec prior to that, perhaps materials choice (embargo, etc)
Dude, love your love for my country :D
Ive been waiting for this for so long
Would love it if he was to discuss the Snotneus... actually I think he might have
The SP-1 put me in mind of the parallel evolution of the Taurus PT92.
Kind of a weird safety position on the SP1. Jericho, that I was trained with, had a similar layout but only on one side and contoured in a way that you are unlikely to engage it when you do the Israeli style quick draw of a pistol with an empty chamber. On this one it looks like if you rack a slide in a hurry you'd catch the safety. For some reason we were trained to rack the slide with your fingers and thumb pointing towards you, so it's like a spiraling motion from the heart.. On many pistols it's hard to do.
Lifesizepotato did a video on his two SP1s, including a fancy version.
Z88 is a full alloy metal of brilliance
That's really good looking gun
I got to handle the "Practical Shooting Race-Gun" version, some time in the 90s. (High Capacity, if I remember right. Under the Brady Ban, but it had a double stack, with >10 rounds. It wasn't my gun.) Very popular gun, I had no idea it was derived from the Baretta. You really can't tell unless you take one apart, except for the similarity in the grips, and by then, those style grips were extremely common. Then again, the M9 was the service pistol for American Forces at the time, so it's not unlike all the Stoner clones on the market.
Ian knows more about SA and sub Saharan guns that most of my mates. Well done Boet!
For a look at the target variant, LifeSizePotato has a video taking one apart.
I love the frame safety version,wish beretta would make the 92 frame safety again.
Oooo they're all so purdy 😍