Hi great video! I was wondering, how do you go from counting outs to evaluating equity. I wonder if there is a similar quick calculation for equity like the 4x outs on turn and 2x outs on river in NLHE.
Nice video, thanks! What about this one? Your hand is KJT4 and the flop comes AQ9. Your wrap uses 3 cards from your hand but also 3 from the board. I can see that it has 13 outs (4 to an 8 and 9 to broadway) but I couldn't see a wrap like this in the video.
there are lots of possible examples that werent in the video. the point was to help teach you how to count them yourself, and memorize the most common ones
People think differently, for some reason when I think of the broadway, or any straight, I think of AKQJT, not TJQKA. So I have to reverse the cards you show in my head.
LOL, yes, it would be nice if you could really "use 3" from your hand. Of course I'm talking about figurative use when calculating outs and not literal use at showdown!
I thought PLO to myself but I don't agree that on a Ah5h board with black 234 cards in your hands that you hare 9 outs, you have 6 outs because the flush card should not be seen as an out that's way too optimistic.
Possibly. Send me an email (support @ countingouts.com) and tell me a little about yourself (include your skype or phone number).
I'm also in the process of creating a PLO course for NL->PLO transition and mastering low/mid stakes PLO. To get notified when this is live, you can subscribe to this channel or get my free PLO ebook and that will put you on my email list: www.CountingOuts.com/counting-plo-wrap-outs/
I wish the person whose channel this is, would make more videos on PLO or other poker games. Stinks there are just 3 videos. Its like he just disappeared 😕
Hi Andrew, yup other priorities came up! If I can get back to doing more of these, what type of PLO videos would you like to see? Any particular topics?
when your hand is 579T, 68TJ, 79JQ, etc, when you hit those 2 key cards (68, 79, 8T, etc., respectively), you have a 20 out wrap with all 20 outs giving you the nuts
Your 2nd variant of the 20 out wrap doesnt appear to have 20 outs :-( ....... a board 7 would not give a straight as it would need to use 3 (8.9.J) of your hole cards. NB Just trying to understand wraps - so confirmation would be welcome and glad i'm not only one who gets confused :-)
Wow, great catch! You are absolutely correct, the second 20 out example is actually 16 outs (an extra board card would be required to make it 20). Alas, youtube will not allow me to replace the video with edits....but I do have new ones in the works. This table shows a few different structures of 20 out wraps in case that's helpful: www.countingouts.com/identify-plo-wrap-types/
Wraps and straights are tricky. 1. The location of the cards matters. KQJ8 is FAR better than J876 on a board of T92 even though the number of ways to make a straight is different. Facing a lone opponent with a set, it hardly matters, but in a multiway pot, the J876 is trash. When you make a straight, it will usually lose to a higher one. For this reason, you vastly prefer a hand like JT97 to J987. 2. It is not unusual for a hand to make a straight and split the pot, even when you make the nuts, so wraps are never quite as good as they seem, even when you are making nut straights. 3. A two tone board makes wraps MUCH weaker, unless, of course, you hold the nut flush draw too, in which case you have a true monster. Having the suit, but not the nuts means you should play VERY fast. You want a nut flush to pay. Since you have blockers, his odds are not as good as he thinks. You also want to avoid being deep when the flush falls since opposing bets can easily be nut flushes and you don't want to get bluffed out. It is FAR better to get the money in on the flop when some of your outs are tainted. This is especially true with flushes, since a bare Ace provides an excellent bluffing opportunity. 4. Distant overcards matter. Suppose you have 9876 and the flop is 56J. Sure, you have a great wrap to the nuts, but suppose the turn is a T. Suddenly you are on the so-called "idiot end". The same thing happens when the turn is a 9,Q,K or even an Ace. Hopefully those hands folded on the flop, but if not, your hand is now a weak draw, especially since the turn probably produced a flush draw. If you checked this in early position or many people called a flop bet, you can be in trouble. It is not unusual for folks to call a single bet with something like AKQT and a back door flush or 2. For these reasons, you pretty much have to play such hands very fast and hope your opponent has only a set, and not something like KQJJ, which can make a higher straight as well as a full house. This kind of thing is common in Omaha and is precisely why hands like JJ73 should be mucked. Even top set will be a whole lot better if it has other working features. 5. Redraws matter. If you make a straight and have redraws, you are in MUCH better shape. If a lone opponent has the same straight and no redraw, you are living the dream. If other players insist on calling, you either beat their hands when they make a lesser hand or, at a bare minimum, you block some of their outs. Ideally, you get heads up with 2 pair and are a big favorite with your wrap and flush draws. But if not, at least you cannot be bluffed off.a winning hand. This is why I suggest avoiding playing very deep. When very deep, it can be difficult to get all in or nearly all in, which leaves you very vulnerable to flush bluffs and even boat bluffs.
@@robertjeter5984 20 is the max, there are also wrap stuctures that give you a redraw on the turn if you hit ii which go up in value when you are deep stacked. You could both have the same straightdraw and if it comes can have a set redraw (or a higher straight redraw or a flush draw). Those redraws go up in value when deep stacked.
@@chezchezchezchez i know. I‘m just confused by the Term „out“. For me it is Not an out if u still loose when hitting it. But I looked it up, thats Not the Case. But still I think my aproach is better haha
on the A-5 hearts w hole cards including 234, you failed to deduct the hearts that would leave you a straight dead to a flush. pretty horrible overall I’d have to give you 3 stars
It takes a little practice for sure...you could try dealing yourself some cards. The key concept is that you can have a lot of straight outs increasing your chances of winning. Being able to quickly look at a flop and make a rough estimate of how many outs will help your game.
@@countingouts7379 I mean I can but... What you shown only leads me to more questions. Sometimes outs are useless if somebody could have better.. Where I come from we call these open enders & gut shots..
@@Dan0rioN Ah yes, you certainly do need to focus on nut outs. I go a little more in depth in this guide: www.countingouts.com/counting-plo-wrap-outs/ I'll be doing more videos soon too. You want your cards to be on the top side of the board cards as much as possible.
Come on people, I love the video and the effort but get real, this guy is counting outs that are not nut outs how can you do that ?????? I think this is really bad
Great information. I haven't heard anyone talk about the 2-sided Monster. Having that holding in your hand is a beast.
Good info. I’ve played Hold em for over 20 years and I think I’m going to start playing Omaha more often. This was really helpful. Thanks
Hi great video! I was wondering, how do you go from counting outs to evaluating equity. I wonder if there is a similar quick calculation for equity like the 4x outs on turn and 2x outs on river in NLHE.
Hi John, yes, you can use the same rule of thumb as NLHE. More here: www.countingouts.com/omaha-wrap-intro/
thats how i do it
2nd ex of 20 out wrap is wrong. 7 doesn’t make a straight w/89kj on 10,q board , as the 89kq would on 10,j board.
How do you get 2 board cards?
Great vid thanks - I can't play NLHE any more after taking up PLO! But understanding wraps can be tricky when i am used to simple up/down and gutty.
Nice video, thanks!
What about this one? Your hand is KJT4 and the flop comes AQ9. Your wrap uses 3 cards from your hand but also 3 from the board. I can see that it has 13 outs (4 to an 8 and 9 to broadway) but I couldn't see a wrap like this in the video.
Come on author, stop giving us crickets !
there are lots of possible examples that werent in the video. the point was to help teach you how to count them yourself, and memorize the most common ones
People think differently, for some reason when I think of the broadway, or any straight, I think of AKQJT, not TJQKA. So I have to reverse the cards you show in my head.
1:06 actually that would be a nice game too! 2 of the Board and 3 of your Hand!
LOL, yes, it would be nice if you could really "use 3" from your hand. Of course I'm talking about figurative use when calculating outs and not literal use at showdown!
I thought PLO to myself but I don't agree that on a Ah5h board with black 234 cards in your hands that you hare 9 outs, you have 6 outs because the flush card should not be seen as an out that's way too optimistic.
hello thanks for explaining wrap
do you do coaching im thinking to move to plo
Possibly. Send me an email (support @ countingouts.com) and tell me a little about yourself (include your skype or phone number).
I'm also in the process of creating a PLO course for NL->PLO transition and mastering low/mid stakes PLO. To get notified when this is live, you can subscribe to this channel or get my free PLO ebook and that will put you on my email list:
www.CountingOuts.com/counting-plo-wrap-outs/
I wish the person whose channel this is, would make more videos on PLO or other poker games. Stinks there are just 3 videos. Its like he just disappeared 😕
Hi Andrew, yup other priorities came up! If I can get back to doing more of these, what type of PLO videos would you like to see? Any particular topics?
Nice
7:06 Imaging the 20 outs wrap with the flush draw !? 🤑
At 4:00 mark…you have less outs because the heart outs makes you lose to flush.
when your hand is 579T, 68TJ, 79JQ, etc, when you hit those 2 key cards (68, 79, 8T, etc., respectively), you have a 20 out wrap with all 20 outs giving you the nuts
1:51 Me counting my outs on the table !! 😂
Your 2nd variant of the 20 out wrap doesnt appear to have 20 outs :-( ....... a board 7 would not give a straight as it would need to use 3 (8.9.J) of your hole cards. NB Just trying to understand wraps - so confirmation would be welcome and glad i'm not only one who gets confused :-)
Wow, great catch! You are absolutely correct, the second 20 out example is actually 16 outs (an extra board card would be required to make it 20). Alas, youtube will not allow me to replace the video with edits....but I do have new ones in the works. This table shows a few different structures of 20 out wraps in case that's helpful: www.countingouts.com/identify-plo-wrap-types/
@@countingouts7379 Thanks. Glad I was not going mad ..will read table with interest :-)
👌
Wraps and straights are tricky.
1. The location of the cards matters. KQJ8 is FAR better than J876 on a board of T92 even though the number of ways to make a straight is different. Facing a lone opponent with a set, it hardly matters, but in a multiway pot, the J876 is trash. When you make a straight, it will usually lose to a higher one.
For this reason, you vastly prefer a hand like JT97 to J987.
2. It is not unusual for a hand to make a straight and split the pot, even when you make the nuts, so wraps are never quite as good as they seem, even when you are making nut straights.
3. A two tone board makes wraps MUCH weaker, unless, of course, you hold the nut flush draw too, in which case you have a true monster. Having the suit, but not the nuts means you should play VERY fast. You want a nut flush to pay. Since you have blockers, his odds are not as good as he thinks. You also want to avoid being deep when the flush falls since opposing bets can easily be nut flushes and you don't want to get bluffed out. It is FAR better to get the money in on the flop when some of your outs are tainted. This is especially true with flushes, since a bare Ace provides an excellent bluffing opportunity.
4. Distant overcards matter. Suppose you have 9876 and the flop is 56J. Sure, you have a great wrap to the nuts, but suppose the turn is a T. Suddenly you are on the so-called "idiot end". The same thing happens when the turn is a 9,Q,K or even an Ace. Hopefully those hands folded on the flop, but if not, your hand is now a weak draw, especially since the turn probably produced a flush draw. If you checked this in early position or many people called a flop bet, you can be in trouble. It is not unusual for folks to call a single bet with something like AKQT and a back door flush or 2. For these reasons, you pretty much have to play such hands very fast and hope your opponent has only a set, and not something like KQJJ, which can make a higher straight as well as a full house. This kind of thing is common in Omaha and is precisely why hands like JJ73 should be mucked. Even top set will be a whole lot better if it has other working features.
5. Redraws matter. If you make a straight and have redraws, you are in MUCH better shape. If a lone opponent has the same straight and no redraw, you are living the dream. If other players insist on calling, you either beat their hands when they make a lesser hand or, at a bare minimum, you block some of their outs. Ideally, you get heads up with 2 pair and are a big favorite with your wrap and flush draws. But if not, at least you cannot be bluffed off.a winning hand. This is why I suggest avoiding playing very deep. When very deep, it can be difficult to get all in or nearly all in, which leaves you very vulnerable to flush bluffs and even boat bluffs.
Thanks!
Quiz: What's the most # of outs your wrap can have?
20
We have a home game dealers choice. It allows 5 cards, 6 cards and if short handed 7 or 8 cards with double or single board. I'm not kidding.
@@webpkric That is insane !
@@robertjeter5984 20 is the max, there are also wrap stuctures that give you a redraw on the turn if you hit ii which go up in value when you are deep stacked. You could both have the same straightdraw and if it comes can have a set redraw (or a higher straight redraw or a flush draw). Those redraws go up in value when deep stacked.
Dunno about "most pots" are won by straights or better. Maybe most big pots?
Yeah, good catch. I probably should instead have said something like...more hands are won by straights or better in PLO than in no-limit hold'em.
At least 3 of the cards in your hand? I dont think so.
How
Come
This video has such less views?
Out means u make the best Hand. So at 5:55 a Queen cant be an out or Not? Oppenend can still have K/10
Yes, there are 3 queen outs in that example. We would make a straight, 8 thru Q (using our 8 and J)
@@countingouts7379 yeah i know, but my Point was that this straight wouldn‘t be the nuts.
@@Alec____ i think outs are always nut outs, but I could be wrong. But at 0:40 he also explaines it that way, I‘d say.
@@richardschmalhofer3477 not even close. Look at his 20 outs straight draw, they are not all to the nuts.
@@chezchezchezchez i know. I‘m just confused by the Term „out“. For me it is Not an out if u still loose when hitting it. But I looked it up, thats Not the Case. But still I think my aproach is better haha
The thing I don't like about this video, as he doesn't mention how many outs to the nut straight. Many times you only care about draws to the nuts.
on the A-5 hearts w hole cards including 234, you failed to deduct the hearts that would leave you a straight dead to a flush. pretty horrible overall I’d have to give you 3 stars
For some reason it's not explained clearly
sorry I think this is bollox
This Just confused me even more...
It takes a little practice for sure...you could try dealing yourself some cards. The key concept is that you can have a lot of straight outs increasing your chances of winning. Being able to quickly look at a flop and make a rough estimate of how many outs will help your game.
@@countingouts7379 I mean I can but... What you shown only leads me to more questions. Sometimes outs are useless if somebody could have better.. Where I come from we call these open enders & gut shots..
@@Dan0rioN Ah yes, you certainly do need to focus on nut outs. I go a little more in depth in this guide: www.countingouts.com/counting-plo-wrap-outs/ I'll be doing more videos soon too. You want your cards to be on the top side of the board cards as much as possible.
Come on people, I love the video and the effort but get real, this guy is counting outs that are not nut outs how can you do that ?????? I think this is really bad