Something that really shook me when I first saw this episode, was Amy Acker's acting. She pulls off Illyria flawlessly. She's stoic, terrifying, powerful, and she plays it really well. As much as I hated to lose Fred, I've always loved that the actress got to branch out and do something that was new for her. As for the story, I've always been fascinated by Illyria's character, and watching... Well, the rest of the season. In all honesty, since I found your channel, these two episodes have been the ones I've been looking forward to the most. These ones and the finale. Fred really held the group together. She was the heart of the show, and seeing what happened when she was gone, seeing the heroes fall apart through their grief, their desperation, and the aftermath of having her there was powerful. Fred and Illyria really have made Amy Acker one of my all time favorite actresses.
Interesting that Amy's term on Person of Interest mirrored her time on Angel; with her character killed off near the end of S5 (the final season) and she then played a different character.
Not a fan of this storyline for Fred just for the final episodes of the show. Maybe if it was more fleshed out and not just so short lived. A season or two of development would have been nice. Having said that, l do love the dialog between Illyria & Wesley. Almost Shakespearean ... almost. 😁
@Mistr_Anderson I heard a rumor that Joss wanted another season, but had to release it in comic form because it would have been too expensive to shoot, and the studio shut him down. Probably bs, but there is a comic. Either way, yeah, I kind've agree. Illyria needed more fleshing out, but with the time constraints Joss had, I rather like how things went. And I still say Amy killed it in the role.
This was such an interesting turn for Amy as an actress. So many actors would have been cheesey with these same lines and she just nailed the performance
I actually thought Illyria was going to be the main big bad this season at first, but it's interestingly a bit more complicated. And cudos to Amy Ackerman for her performance, wow. That is clearly not Fred anymore
I think the first one to even mention Old Ones was Giles, back in Episode 1 of Buffy. Then there was Mayor Wilkins whose entire plan was to transform into one of the Old Ones. When Doyle died, there was this weird cult who believed that they themselves were the pure demons... but now we have an actual Old One in person, stuck in Fred's body.
The Mayor wanted to become a pure demon, there where never any mentioning of any old ones in S3. And sorry to be the nitpicky one but Giles never mentioned any old ones in Episode 1 either, it was Luke: "But on the third day of the newest light would come the Harvest. And the blood of men will flow as wine. When the Master will walk among them once more! The Earth will belong to the old ones. And Hell itself will come to town." Giles did however in Episode 2 say this: "This world is older than any of you know. Contrary to popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For untold eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home, their... their Hell. But in time they lost their purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man. All that remains of the old ones are vestiges, certain magicks, certain creatures... "
@@Henrik_Holstbeing a pure demon is essentially being an old one all old ones are pure demon no half human. That’s what the mayor turned into he lost his humanoid form and no longer be able to turn back. So he is classed as an old one even in Wikipedia.
@@Henrik_Holst you have the old ones which are Illyria, the mayor and some other ones Illyria was 1 of the most powerful old ones of her time including the fact she can teleport, and control space and time so all the other old ones teamed up and killed her as they were constantly trying to kill each other for power and domination. It was said she was beloved and hated her true form is crazy. All the demon and vampires all spawned from the old ones and over time became more and more human looking. She was a great warrior who ruled with an iron fist.
Illyria is one of the elder primordial beings. Creatures that existed at the very beginning of time. Sort of Lovecraftian. There are a lot of stories that whirl around about these beings, names and forms change with the author. They where either killed(consumed), exiled, or imprisoned; depending on the source.
Actually, what had happened was, I took them all out to lunch on Saturn...and then ditched them there.🤣🤣🤣 You should have seen the look on their faces, tentacled orifices, blubbering blowholes, and gaping maws as I rode my Rocket-Powered Rhinoceros Beetle out of there. You're welcome, Humanity. 😁
Wesley is my second favorite character in this whole universe so seeing Dark Wesley return after losing Fred I was cheering him on the whole time 🎯👊 And Amy kills it as Illyria 💜🤘
I hated losing Fred but we still have Amy Acker and she’s brilliant as Illyria. I do appreciate that Angel and Spike sort of put their grievances aside at the end of the episode. It was a great scene.
i think the most tragic part is that not only fred's life was cut short but her soul was destroyed so in a world where afterlife is confirmed to be real she didn't get to have it and was completely erased instead
@@user-cc2ke4yy3i It's mystical so it could have been reversed. Maybe if Willow was around. I think it was just made up or rushed becuz of the cancellation.
@@Mistr_Andersonwell if the comic books are in canon Fred is still in Illyria a slither in her mind but it’s become enough for Fred to come back and they share a body which if Angel had another season this was going to be the storyline.
@@Mistr_Anderson her soul was destroyed however a piece of Fred survived any piece of her would be enough for her to come back and it was her memories since memory is a powerful thing. It pushed Fred to come forth in illyrias mind and than recover to the point they share a body from switching from Illyria to Fred. You see Fred’s memories were always powerful and Illyria always struggled to control them this is shown in angel season 5 with her relationship with Wesley and her ability to understand humanity and wanting to that was essentially Fred’s consciousness pushing through to Illyria.
I find and found Illyria fascinating from her first appearance, in a large part because of Jasmine who was also an Old One, and they were incredibly powerful. I mean Wolfram & Hart are so incredibly powerful that they have zero fear of Slayers and the Watchers, they span dimensions, and Illyria ranks them as being slightly above vampires. Which has me reconsidering how powerful vampires might be & how powerful the old ones were. Jasmine almost took over the world with a smile. Though, losing Fred is hard, I loved that character, but I'm glad it's still Amy Acker and this is letting her act in a whole new badass way.
Illyria, even though only in the last few episodes was one of the greatest characters in The Buffyverse. It was heartbreaking to see Fred disappear into Illyria, but we just know more heartbreak is to come.. Season 5 of Angel was incredible with a great story arc, and brilliant writing. Wesley has the greatest arc of any character in The Buffyverse. The pain Wesley feels at the loss of Fred you can really see, his actions are driven purely by the intensity of the situation. Nothing Wesley ever did was for his own gratification he genuinely always tried to do the right thing. He is truly human. He even was willing to kill his own father to protect Fred! Illyria is of course is like Glory on steroids! Knox was suss from the start, and now we see his true worth. Gunn it seems is holding something back regarding the shipment. Great little comedy relief with Spike on the plane bemoaning the size of the mini bar bottles. We get a great sense of revenge when Gunn punches the arrogant Doctor, but he of course done the deal with Gunn to free the shipment for Charles to continue as a legal genius. When Gunn says to Doctor 'take it back' all the knowledge etc we can see his is genuine, and would do anything to bring her back. Definite foreshadowing here for The Dollhouse Series with the complete brain loading for the Actives in that show, along of course with Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders in that series. When Wesley blows away the Doctor after overhearing the conversation it is a brilliant scene. 'Nothing from Wolfram & Hart is ever free'. When Angel is giving his great speech to Illyria about saving Humanity, and then Wesley kills Knox, he turns around and says to Wesley 'were you even listening'. Incredible to turn such a serious scene is into a glorious comedy moment. This show is on another level! Wesley is now like Liam Neeson in Darkman seeking total revenge. Fantastic scene when Wesley and Illyria are talking and she comes to the realisation her world is gone too. Wesley explains to her how she must change if she needs his help. The final scene of Fred leaving home and hugging her parents is totally heartbreaking knowing how her life would end up. A brilliant episode again leading on to a stunning Finale.
Also gotta add that even back in 2004, when this aired, the ending, I knew that none of this was good for Wes, psychologically, Illyria hanging around, him constantly being reminded of Fred, he is broken
I always love that detail. Illyria's comment that the Wolf Ram and Hart used to be weak no higher than the vamps. I compare WRH to the trio Warren, Jonathan and Andrew WRH seems eternal but once upon they started their career like the trio. I also appreciate that WRH always played the long game. Most villains have this big decisive move they are working for flashy but WRH they have thousands of moves minor Angel never even notices. WRH plays it smart
0:45 "I thought the humans would've long died out by now". Just give us a minute Love...we're all about it.😉 2:03 That's a Smurf-Quart, Son. Those little blue buggers'll go to town on one of those.🥃 11:04 Wesley was probably already in my Favourite Five BuffyVerse characters, but if not, this definitely did it. A cold-blooded Bad-A$$.👍 13:20 This scene leading into the next accompanied by "A Place Called Home" by Kim Richey... ❤💔😭
There's a hole in the world, and it's not the deeper well😢. The Guys are not out of charactere, they've been thereselves for the first time since Cordys disappearing. Fred is like Tara a being that pulls protection triggers immediately. Seeing their rising panic reflected in there incresed activity makes this two episodes as intense as Fred's fight did. The words 'Why can't i stay?' will hunt you know like 'And you're welcome!', 'Mommy?!?' and 'Your shirt?!' But there is at least one good thing: Amy Acker stays and she gets the opportunity to play a complete different role in the same environment. One additional aspect: The question towards Fred staying at home and alive or moving out and dying, but has haved an extraordinary life is quiet similar to Tara, who died barely 1 ½ years after her escape from her family shackles. The difference is just that Freds parents have been really loveable persons. It's up to everyone by himself to decide what was preferable.
If Fred had not left Texas to go to LA, she might not be dead. But would she have lived? Also: Wesley, dark once again, did to Charles Gunn when Angel did to him, when he, Wesley, did what he thought was best and "saved" Angel's son by delivering Connor to Holtz. (On the other hand, considering that nobody seems to remember Connor, does Wesley remember that incident? Does he have another reason in his head for why Angel tried to smother him, or why all his friends abandoned him after Justine slits his throat, or how and why she did that?)
The CEO of a Hell dimension has arrived, in a sense, as this show is to some degree a metaphor for a young adult entering the working world, and coping with its challenges, and those more generally of being an adult. In my opinion. Though that still leaves questions like, "Just what sort of authority figure is she supposed to represent?" (Clearly one that is ruthless, and doesn't care about those working below her.) But working at Wolfram & Hart implies that one is complicit in the sort of compromises (moral and otherwise) that keep economies and societies functioning. [Necessarily?] Something that Angel (and team) need to come to terms with. The Buffy series was more about a person becoming a fully realized Adult; employment for her was rather problematic, and not dealt with much. And then on Firefly, the main character had his Faith torn to shreds initially, and starts in a low and dark place. Then over time he manages to create a new sense of Faith, with the help of his friends, that is even stronger than the initial version. For Angel (and friends) it's about defining the struggle, and then committing to it. (My theory is that Joss and Amy [and others] didn't have a problem with these definitions, but Joss and Charisma did, unfortunately.)
One of the issues with having shows being brought back from the dead is that you never believe a character is gone. The trope has become so that you already don't believe someone is dead until you've seen the body, and Buffy came back after that, too. So this show has to work really hard to convince you that yes, Winifred Burkle truly is dead, gone, and can never be brought back. And then Illyria's memories of her make a show, and suddenly they've ruined it, and we think there might be a chance. On the other hand, though we miss Fred, we still have Amy Acker, and Illyria is fantastic in her own way, and we miss Fred just a teensy bit less. Until next week, Dakara Jayne, thanks for these.
If the situation messes with you too much just try to step back and appreciate how cool this is for the actress who plays Fred. As an actress she gets to now play a character in the show who is essentially a god. You are going to come to love Illyria as a character.
I know that in regards to the showrunners and the writing crew, this episode is they stating that there is no way Fred could be bring back, so us (the audience), would give up the idea and let it go to enjoy better the rest of the season (especially that they knew, by that point, that it will be the last season). But in-universe, The crew just believing what a guy that worships Illyria told them so they stop trying to get rid of Illyria/bring Fred back is a bit disappointing. And somehow, it's the reason I never totally believed it would be impossible, had the show continued on for more seasons.
To be fair, Illyria was not conscious until Fred was already dead, so in a technical sense Illyria didn't have a real hand in killing Fred she just inhabits the corpse.
Yeah I was going to say if anyone is a killer of Fred it wasn’t Illyria it was Knox he is the one who chose Fred to infect her Illyria really had no say in who or what she just took over.
As I've heard it, this one came about because Joss used to have actors over to his place, and they would do Shakespeare. He realized Amy was capable of a lot more than Fred gave her room to do, and she was somewhat bored with Fred and wanted to do more, and Illyria is the result. It's why this death/transformation doesn't bother me as much as the others do, it feels more a result of creative collaboration than something Joss does just because he likes twisting dramatic knives. Or because of whatever the situation with Charisma was.
Wow! Were you raised by wolves?! You're talking to other human beings here! Just because you don't know what good TV is doesn't give you the right to call a timeless classic that is still praised by young and old 20 years after its big finale s***! What's wrong with people today?!
@@GJS2183 as i said i ask if i can ask...not even asking permission is an option? is people still free to speak in this world? who did i insult? anyone.
Something that really shook me when I first saw this episode, was Amy Acker's acting. She pulls off Illyria flawlessly. She's stoic, terrifying, powerful, and she plays it really well. As much as I hated to lose Fred, I've always loved that the actress got to branch out and do something that was new for her.
As for the story, I've always been fascinated by Illyria's character, and watching... Well, the rest of the season. In all honesty, since I found your channel, these two episodes have been the ones I've been looking forward to the most. These ones and the finale. Fred really held the group together. She was the heart of the show, and seeing what happened when she was gone, seeing the heroes fall apart through their grief, their desperation, and the aftermath of having her there was powerful. Fred and Illyria really have made Amy Acker one of my all time favorite actresses.
Interesting that Amy's term on Person of Interest mirrored her time on Angel; with her character killed off near the end of S5 (the final season) and she then played a different character.
I couldn't agree with you more, I was going to write a comment before I saw yours but It would be pointless LOL.
@@jasonsumner3386 Go ahead. No two people are exactly the same. You might reveal something I missed, vut at the very least, you'll help the algorithm.
Not a fan of this storyline for Fred just for the final episodes of the show. Maybe if it was more fleshed out and not just so short lived. A season or two of development would have been nice. Having said that, l do love the dialog between Illyria & Wesley. Almost Shakespearean ... almost. 😁
@Mistr_Anderson I heard a rumor that Joss wanted another season, but had to release it in comic form because it would have been too expensive to shoot, and the studio shut him down. Probably bs, but there is a comic.
Either way, yeah, I kind've agree. Illyria needed more fleshing out, but with the time constraints Joss had, I rather like how things went. And I still say Amy killed it in the role.
This was such an interesting turn for Amy as an actress. So many actors would have been cheesey with these same lines and she just nailed the performance
Fred and Illyria are both amazing characters. Amy is an S-tier actress. Truly.
I want a compilation of every "I love this show" and "I hate this show." Thanks in advance.
I actually thought Illyria was going to be the main big bad this season at first, but it's interestingly a bit more complicated. And cudos to Amy Ackerman for her performance, wow. That is clearly not Fred anymore
I think the first one to even mention Old Ones was Giles, back in Episode 1 of Buffy. Then there was Mayor Wilkins whose entire plan was to transform into one of the Old Ones. When Doyle died, there was this weird cult who believed that they themselves were the pure demons... but now we have an actual Old One in person, stuck in Fred's body.
And the Master planned to release them in Season 1.
The Mayor wanted to become a pure demon, there where never any mentioning of any old ones in S3. And sorry to be the nitpicky one but Giles never mentioned any old ones in Episode 1 either, it was Luke: "But on the third day of the newest light would come the Harvest. And the blood of men will flow as wine. When the Master will walk among them once more! The Earth will belong to the old ones. And Hell itself will come to town."
Giles did however in Episode 2 say this: "This world is older than any of you know. Contrary to popular mythology, it did not begin as a paradise. For untold eons demons walked the Earth. They made it their home, their... their Hell. But in time they lost their purchase on this reality. The way was made for mortal animals, for, for man. All that remains of the old ones are vestiges, certain magicks, certain creatures... "
@@Henrik_Holstbeing a pure demon is essentially being an old one all old ones are pure demon no half human. That’s what the mayor turned into he lost his humanoid form and no longer be able to turn back. So he is classed as an old one even in Wikipedia.
@@Mcherri ok, I thought that there perhaps was a difference in that the old ones was even from before the demons but the more you know :)
@@Henrik_Holst you have the old ones which are Illyria, the mayor and some other ones Illyria was 1 of the most powerful old ones of her time including the fact she can teleport, and control space and time so all the other old ones teamed up and killed her as they were constantly trying to kill each other for power and domination. It was said she was beloved and hated her true form is crazy. All the demon and vampires all spawned from the old ones and over time became more and more human looking. She was a great warrior who ruled with an iron fist.
Illyria is one of the elder primordial beings. Creatures that existed at the very beginning of time. Sort of Lovecraftian. There are a lot of stories that whirl around about these beings, names and forms change with the author. They where either killed(consumed), exiled, or imprisoned; depending on the source.
Actually, what had happened was, I took them all out to lunch on Saturn...and then ditched them there.🤣🤣🤣 You should have seen the look on their faces, tentacled orifices, blubbering blowholes, and gaping maws as I rode my Rocket-Powered Rhinoceros Beetle out of there. You're welcome, Humanity. 😁
Wesley is my second favorite character in this whole universe so seeing Dark Wesley return after losing Fred I was cheering him on the whole time 🎯👊 And Amy kills it as Illyria 💜🤘
I hated losing Fred but we still have Amy Acker and she’s brilliant as Illyria. I do appreciate that Angel and Spike sort of put their grievances aside at the end of the episode. It was a great scene.
i think the most tragic part is that not only fred's life was cut short but her soul was destroyed so in a world where afterlife is confirmed to be real she didn't get to have it and was completely erased instead
I always found that part soooo unnecessarily cruel of the writers. Such overkill.
@@user-cc2ke4yy3i It's mystical so it could have been reversed. Maybe if Willow was around. I think it was just made up or rushed becuz of the cancellation.
@@Mistr_Andersonwell if the comic books are in canon Fred is still in Illyria a slither in her mind but it’s become enough for Fred to come back and they share a body which if Angel had another season this was going to be the storyline.
@@Mcherri Oh, ok. I don't read the comics. I thought they said on the show her soul was destroyed? How does she still have it in the comics?
@@Mistr_Anderson her soul was destroyed however a piece of Fred survived any piece of her would be enough for her to come back and it was her memories since memory is a powerful thing. It pushed Fred to come forth in illyrias mind and than recover to the point they share a body from switching from Illyria to Fred. You see Fred’s memories were always powerful and Illyria always struggled to control them this is shown in angel season 5 with her relationship with Wesley and her ability to understand humanity and wanting to that was essentially Fred’s consciousness pushing through to Illyria.
Ever since Illyria, blue highlights are... of interest to me.
Well I used to watch Farscape and so they are of interest to me too 😀😀😀
Illyria is my favorite Buffyverse character, despite her brief tenure.
It could have been so great with a S6.
No, Gunn didn't know that it was going to be Fred but he did know someone was going to be hurt by his actions.
I find and found Illyria fascinating from her first appearance, in a large part because of Jasmine who was also an Old One, and they were incredibly powerful. I mean Wolfram & Hart are so incredibly powerful that they have zero fear of Slayers and the Watchers, they span dimensions, and Illyria ranks them as being slightly above vampires. Which has me reconsidering how powerful vampires might be & how powerful the old ones were. Jasmine almost took over the world with a smile. Though, losing Fred is hard, I loved that character, but I'm glad it's still Amy Acker and this is letting her act in a whole new badass way.
Illyria, even though only in the last few episodes was one of the greatest characters in The Buffyverse. It was heartbreaking to see Fred disappear into Illyria, but we just know more heartbreak is to come.. Season 5 of Angel was incredible with a great story arc, and brilliant writing. Wesley has the greatest arc of any character in The Buffyverse. The pain Wesley feels at the loss of Fred you can really see, his actions are driven purely by the intensity of the situation. Nothing Wesley ever did was for his own gratification he genuinely always tried to do the right thing. He is truly human. He even was willing to kill his own father to protect Fred! Illyria is of course is like Glory on steroids! Knox was suss from the start, and now we see his true worth. Gunn it seems is holding something back regarding the shipment. Great little comedy relief with Spike on the plane bemoaning the size of the mini bar bottles. We get a great sense of revenge when Gunn punches the arrogant Doctor, but he of course done the deal with Gunn to free the shipment for Charles to continue as a legal genius. When Gunn says to Doctor 'take it back' all the knowledge etc we can see his is genuine, and would do anything to bring her back. Definite foreshadowing here for The Dollhouse Series with the complete brain loading for the Actives in that show, along of course with Amy Acker as Dr. Claire Saunders in that series. When Wesley blows away the Doctor after overhearing the conversation it is a brilliant scene. 'Nothing from Wolfram & Hart is ever free'. When Angel is giving his great speech to Illyria about saving Humanity, and then Wesley kills Knox, he turns around and says to Wesley 'were you even listening'. Incredible to turn such a serious scene is into a glorious comedy moment. This show is on another level! Wesley is now like Liam Neeson in Darkman seeking total revenge. Fantastic scene when Wesley and Illyria are talking and she comes to the realisation her world is gone too. Wesley explains to her how she must change if she needs his help. The final scene of Fred leaving home and hugging her parents is totally heartbreaking knowing how her life would end up. A brilliant episode again leading on to a stunning Finale.
When you talk of character growth, you can name more than a few.
Also gotta add that even back in 2004, when this aired, the ending, I knew that none of this was good for Wes, psychologically, Illyria hanging around, him constantly being reminded of Fred, he is broken
favortie Angel episode ! xox
Amy Acker is a fantastic actress in this.
I always love that detail. Illyria's comment that the Wolf Ram and Hart used to be weak no higher than the vamps.
I compare WRH to the trio Warren, Jonathan and Andrew WRH seems eternal but once upon they started their career like the trio.
I also appreciate that WRH always played the long game. Most villains have this big decisive move they are working for flashy but WRH they have thousands of moves minor Angel never even notices. WRH plays it smart
0:45 "I thought the humans would've long died out by now". Just give us a minute Love...we're all about it.😉
2:03 That's a Smurf-Quart, Son. Those little blue buggers'll go to town on one of those.🥃
11:04 Wesley was probably already in my Favourite Five BuffyVerse characters, but if not, this definitely did it. A cold-blooded Bad-A$$.👍
13:20 This scene leading into the next accompanied by "A Place Called Home" by Kim Richey... ❤💔😭
There's a hole in the world, and it's not the deeper well😢. The Guys are not out of charactere, they've been thereselves for the first time since Cordys disappearing. Fred is like Tara a being that pulls protection triggers immediately. Seeing their rising panic reflected in there incresed activity makes this two episodes as intense as Fred's fight did. The words 'Why can't i stay?' will hunt you know like 'And you're welcome!', 'Mommy?!?' and 'Your shirt?!'
But there is at least one good thing: Amy Acker stays and she gets the opportunity to play a complete different role in the same environment.
One additional aspect: The question towards Fred staying at home and alive or moving out and dying, but has haved an extraordinary life is quiet similar to Tara, who died barely 1 ½ years after her escape from her family shackles. The difference is just that Freds parents have been really loveable persons. It's up to everyone by himself to decide what was preferable.
By the end of this episode, I was just grateful we still had Amy.
At least Amy Acker is still around aka didn't have to leave the show when Fred died.
Wesley is only helping Illyria because she’s all that’s left of Fred and he doesn’t want her death to be in vain.
All hail Illyria, Queen of Smurfs! 😅
Glad to have her on the team!
Totally unrelated but I just realised sajan was the werewolf hunter in buffy
Whoever asked "what do you hope for at the end of the show": don't be mean.
"All I can see is the puppet, guys"😀
I don't believe this was known to be the final season until after it was over.
If Fred had not left Texas to go to LA, she might not be dead. But would she have lived?
Also: Wesley, dark once again, did to Charles Gunn when Angel did to him, when he, Wesley, did what he thought was best and "saved" Angel's son by delivering Connor to Holtz. (On the other hand, considering that nobody seems to remember Connor, does Wesley remember that incident? Does he have another reason in his head for why Angel tried to smother him, or why all his friends abandoned him after Justine slits his throat, or how and why she did that?)
The CEO of a Hell dimension has arrived, in a sense, as this show is to some degree a metaphor for a young adult entering the working world, and coping with its challenges, and those more generally of being an adult. In my opinion. Though that still leaves questions like, "Just what sort of authority figure is she supposed to represent?" (Clearly one that is ruthless, and doesn't care about those working below her.) But working at Wolfram & Hart implies that one is complicit in the sort of compromises (moral and otherwise) that keep economies and societies functioning. [Necessarily?] Something that Angel (and team) need to come to terms with.
The Buffy series was more about a person becoming a fully realized Adult; employment for her was rather problematic, and not dealt with much.
And then on Firefly, the main character had his Faith torn to shreds initially, and starts in a low and dark place. Then over time he manages to create a new sense of Faith, with the help of his friends, that is even stronger than the initial version.
For Angel (and friends) it's about defining the struggle, and then committing to it.
(My theory is that Joss and Amy [and others] didn't have a problem with these definitions, but Joss and Charisma did, unfortunately.)
One of the issues with having shows being brought back from the dead is that you never believe a character is gone. The trope has become so that you already don't believe someone is dead until you've seen the body, and Buffy came back after that, too. So this show has to work really hard to convince you that yes, Winifred Burkle truly is dead, gone, and can never be brought back.
And then Illyria's memories of her make a show, and suddenly they've ruined it, and we think there might be a chance. On the other hand, though we miss Fred, we still have Amy Acker, and Illyria is fantastic in her own way, and we miss Fred just a teensy bit less. Until next week, Dakara Jayne, thanks for these.
All hail Illyria!
Spike is suppressed beneath William, so it is character development of William
If the situation messes with you too much just try to step back and appreciate how cool this is for the actress who plays Fred. As an actress she gets to now play a character in the show who is essentially a god.
You are going to come to love Illyria as a character.
I'm suprised you didn't cry, I totally did first time around.
I'm broken hearted that Fred is gone. At the same time, DAMN Amy Acker really busted out her acting chops for playing Illyria.
I know that in regards to the showrunners and the writing crew, this episode is they stating that there is no way Fred could be bring back, so us (the audience), would give up the idea and let it go to enjoy better the rest of the season (especially that they knew, by that point, that it will be the last season).
But in-universe, The crew just believing what a guy that worships Illyria told them so they stop trying to get rid of Illyria/bring Fred back is a bit disappointing. And somehow, it's the reason I never totally believed it would be impossible, had the show continued on for more seasons.
1:58 Uuffph indeed. Bottles that size are a bleeding nuisance.
I wondered if this was always part of the plan. But I never looked to hard to find out.
Losing Fred still hurts Dakara.😢
gut punch
Would Fred have choose to let her soul be destroyed for her with Angel Investigations? 🤔
I hate what happened to fred but its really good tv. And Illirya is fascinating.
So.... the caveman won.
Commenting for the algorithm
To be fair, Illyria was not conscious until Fred was already dead, so in a technical sense Illyria didn't have a real hand in killing Fred she just inhabits the corpse.
Yeah I was going to say if anyone is a killer of Fred it wasn’t Illyria it was Knox he is the one who chose Fred to infect her Illyria really had no say in who or what she just took over.
As I've heard it, this one came about because Joss used to have actors over to his place, and they would do Shakespeare. He realized Amy was capable of a lot more than Fred gave her room to do, and she was somewhat bored with Fred and wanted to do more, and Illyria is the result. It's why this death/transformation doesn't bother me as much as the others do, it feels more a result of creative collaboration than something Joss does just because he likes twisting dramatic knives. Or because of whatever the situation with Charisma was.
please can you make a reaction video of the episode of bones of season 2 of episode 11 where we see max keenan for the first time
can i ask why 2 episodes of this s*** and just 1 of Fringe or i will be whipped only for asking?
Wow! Were you raised by wolves?! You're talking to other human beings here! Just because you don't know what good TV is doesn't give you the right to call a timeless classic that is still praised by young and old 20 years after its big finale s***! What's wrong with people today?!
@@GJS2183 as i said i ask if i can ask...not even asking permission is an option? is people still free to speak in this world? who did i insult? anyone.
Asking respectfully and being aSmrtss are two different things. It's free here, either wait like a good puppy or pay on Patreon. lol smh
@@GJS2183 Some ppl have a sense of entitlement. Demanding about free content. Like a child. lol
@@Mistr_Anderson Sad but true! He probably still is a child, a spoiled one.
All I can see is the puppet lmao