I prefer when accessibility is implemented like this. It lowers the skill floor needed for mashing but it also raises the skill ceiling much higher with high skill players being able to get mash moves out in as little frames as possible.
I would love to see more content which explains the depth and nuance behind various fighting game inputs. I was pretty quick to pick up on basic Motion Inputs and the strategy around them, but before watching videos explaining Charge and Mash inputs I had little idea as to their purpose.
A brand new arcade opened up today near me. No joke. There was tons of button slamming on the fighting games with kids under the age of 17. Also, a lot of “my character is so bad”
Pick out one kid who frequents the arcade a lot and take them aside and teach them the basics. Motion inputs,chaining attacks from light to medium to heavy or whatever, how to charge down-back, how to BLOCK… then sit back and watch the chaos happen.
@@TheSquareOnes of course. Also OP apparently back in the day nobody really knew how to do a standing 360 because there’s a jump built into the input, so you could tell one kid how to do them (you only need to hit the four cardinal directions in the right order with up last, you’ll have enough time to get the move out while the character is preparing to jump). Imagine showing someone that trick back in the 90s. The arcade would be thrown into chaos
@@prazman Yup, hard to believe. The arcade is at the Smith Haven Mall in Long Island, NY. It was opened by a guy who owns 3 retro game stores. It has at least 40-50 games. I gotta get in touch with him because some of the assist buttons on his MVC2 do not work!
Something I always find fascinating is how many applications there were for mashing as well as how mash specials changed over time. In SF2, Chunli and Honda's mash moves all started out as simple damage tools that could sweep fights at low level because they were amon the most damaging single hit moves in the game, as well as being hard to punish due to guard pushback. By the end of ST, all three could use mash moves to build meter. Honda and Blanka's had combo utility and mash throws. Honda's Hands were a smothering pressure tool, Blanka's electricity combined with his command cash made him a monster on oki, and Chunli... could use hers for meter building. Dee Jay's Machinegun Upper is strictly a combo tool and it gives him TOD. in SFA2, Chunli is one of most feared characters because her Lightning Legs combined with Custom Combo give her very practical and easy 80% combos.
Personally I'm of the opinion that when it comes to "accessibility" the most important thing is to make it easy for people to be able to use all of their tools. Being able to just, get every move a character has to come out shouldn't be very difficult. The challenge should be in using the moves well, or using them in creative ways. You could have a game where all of your moves just have inputs like quarter circles or down down, but you can still have depth with something like specific timings to do bouncing combos off of the wall that are dependent on the exact distance the opponent is from the corner.
Even quarter circles is asking too much, and so is combo timing. It just lends the game to offensively dominated play and you get garbo SFV situations. SFII had simple enough inputs (made much easier in HD Remix) and much less difficult combos, and is still the best fighting game to date for that. I think it could stand to be made easier like Final Challengers on Switch, and there should be more customizable controls, but still, it's playable. Viable defensive play doesn't exist in a lot of fighting games, it's there but you're often better served attacking. These are fighting games,not attacking or defending games, both should be viable options working towards victory. Itself a lot less hype to watch someone chip or clock a win but it's more fun than pure rushdown.
Speaking as a new-ish player, fighting games feel like a massive step up from other games because controlling the character feels inconsistent. Trying over and over to input quarter circles and dying because I was punching at fullscreen is a crushing feeling, and without any feedback there really isn't a way to "get good". It also really sucks playing on an arcade cab that has a stick that drops inputs. I've finally reached the fun part of fighting games where I'm playing against people, but starting out it felt more like I was fighting the game, which isn't a good first impression.
@@rapidemboar4625 Stick sucks imo. You get more accurate input and less travel using a dpad. The exception is circles and certain other odd inputs, I find.
As a veteran player of fighters since early childhood, I really appreciate this channel and the effort you go through for each video. Wonderful analysis and looking forward to the next observations.
Capcom vs snk 2 allowed you to mash different strength attacks 5x to get out a mashable special before SF4. I know this b/c roll cancel specials were a huge part of the game to give invincibility to specials, and when you look up how to do blanka's rc lightning, you can clearly see ppl using different strength punches; There's a yt video by obot64 where a cvs2 player is explaining how to do roll cancel lightning with blanka and he says "fierce, strong, jab, roll, fierce," or HP~MP~LP~LP+LK~HP
Swiss cheese wasn't intended to nerf his movement since plink dashing was also unintended from the developers. It was probably to punish people mashing crouching light.
having control of the mash input is a make or break for any blanka/honda/chun li player. once you gain the technique another dimension of the character opens up. the instant i learned to slide i got so many more tools. new combos, hit strings, pressure, mix ups, all became available. it also came with a sense of satisfaction, i was rewarded for the work i put in. the time i spent learning the timing, learning this new technique and leveraging it in my gameplay paid off in a big way.
The video editor is eating good, goddamn. I never liked mash moves. Like, here's a genre that wants you to be precise, except when it requires you to slam the button like a madman. Everything can be learned, sure, but "precise mashing" is such a counter-intuitive concept to me.
I would highly recommend you give FEXL (fighting ex layer) a shot/spotlight. It's an incredibly well made game and it's the perfect blend of accessibility and high level execution.
I'll be happy when all fighting games finally embrace "modern" controls. We shouldn't gatekeep the genre with needless execution difficulty. Buttons plus directions works for Fantasy Strike, Soul Calibur, and even Smash. Sadly, Smash circles back to betray itself by introducing complex execution via being so utterly broken.
3rd strike has a meter behind the scenes that goes up / needs to be filled when it comes to mash moves. Also I would love to see mash mentioned for doing damage and reducing damage.
These videos are so slickly produced, absolutely wonderful job y'all are doing here. Accessibility has too many different parts, and you don't even want all of them in the same game. Not every game has to cater to the same crowd as, say, DNF Duel, and that's okay.
I remember a lot of fights and arguments when kids and teenagerr discovered Blanka shock move because no one at the time didn't know how ro hit him when sf2 was new lol. All you need to do is strong low kick him a inch away from him while he dose the special move.
Can we talk about that amazing 360 controller model lmao Anyways, something not mentioned in the input window. 2 requires 4 of the same strength in 3 frames (at least, the way it actually works is there's a input counter that increases every press and decrements every frame, the counter must be 4 or more on a given frame where the move can come out for the special to work) . 4 needs 5 input of any strength in 4 frames. 5 needs 4 of any input in 4 frames. The result is V is like exponentially easier than previous games.
Idk why, but i really did this minor metal background aesthetic. The backing music makes it feel like you brought a full biker dive bar to a quiet for a scheduled fighting game history lesson, spoken word style. Idk, the mental image is hilarious to me.
Excellent, excellent video @TheoryFighter! As an 80's baby Honda main since SFII World Warrior was released, this is the conversation I have had difficulty explaining to people when they would accuse E. Honda of being a brain dead character. Higher level gameplay demands a lot of patience, and you really need to pick your spots and not waste actions. E. Honda been nothing but a nice guy to me at tourneys! 🤣 Added to one of my favorites!
As far as mechanics that punish the player for mashing, I think Punch Planet has a *very* interesting take on this and the one case where a "don't mash" mechanic might actually be okay: Double Time Cancels. DTC are a Roman Cancel-esque mechanic that allows you to cancel specials and non-light normals by double-tapping the button for that move. Unlike Wolverine's Swiss Cheese, this *is* an action that is desirable - it's a key part of combos and pressure. But it *does* discourage mashing, since it can lead to a DTC in a situation where you *don't* want them.
Ever since I discovered SF2 Champion Edition in 1992 I have always avoided the heavy punch button when attempting the Hundred Hand Slap because it just meant a lot of whiffing heavy punches and leaving yourself very vulnerable. I preferred to use a two-fingered "piano" motion with light punch and medium punch.
Very good essay, props on honing the production quality without overdoing it into annoying over-editing. If there's one point I'd criticize, is the usage of the term "laggy" when referring to normals. We use "lag" for too many things, I think it'd be better to stick to "long recovery" and such when it comes to moves. Leave lag for non-gameplay things such as network lag, input lag... which are universal.
I don't mind accessibility as long as it's not "dumbing the game down" like the common critique of it would suggest. And the hundred hand slap example is a wonderful instance where this isn't the case, like you said, because it adds a lot more you can do at the top end which INCREASES the complexity. Another example is the KI 2013 remake (underrated game that was hampered by being a console exclusive). Certainly, linking together moves and specials into a combo is pretty easy, but the complexity comes with your opponent being able to perform a "combo breaker" by basically responding to the strength of the button you are hitting a few times in a row. If you are predictable, your opponent can stop your combo cold. This combines well with the fact that until you use an "ender" ability to complete your combo, you don't get to cash out on most of the damage you did during the combo. This means going for long combos becomes a system of risk vs. reward. The KI combo system was completely different from anything else I have seen, and with the addition of combo breakers it was a game changer. Instead of "waiting your turn" it added a new depth where the player has to respond. For those just picking up the game, however, it also meant that getting into performing combos was fairly easy. We need more mechanics like this that makes the genre more approachable, but adds depth at the same time.
They needed to slow wolverine down without a direct nerf, so they came up with a way to do that. One of the best nerfs I’ve ever seen, to be honest, because it doesn’t effect good players, only the terrible ones (and wolverine was too easy to not atleast make weaker in some way coming from Vanilla)
So keeping fighting games hard is good for people that have an obsessive type of personality, and easy/accessible fighting games are for people that like to play games with friends that involved doing cool things without any knowledge of the game. So character with mash moves are actually noob friendly. They allow a new play the ability to go “woah! That’s cool! What did I do!” So what’s the answer? What’s the best “hard” fg and what’s the best “easy” fg?
I would say that keeping skill floor high is for people that are ok both with "PVE" and pvp meanwhile lowering it is for people that only play pvp. I would say keeping the skill floor high is bad for everyone but the pro players, which is why FG have such a low retention rate, people that like High skill ceiling pvp games have hundred of game tailored for them to choose from, people that hard inputs and memorizzation can simply play shupsms or rhythm games
Street fighter 4 was the first fighting game I played. But when I went to older game in sf series I found that I cannot execute hhs with the same way I input. This video answers my question. Thanks.
Personally I would have changed mashing with like a DP input (sfxt chun lightning legs) It makes the move easier to do, makes ex moves easier, and doesn't reduce the technicality of that move (unless the move is like really really strong which imo usually isn't) Twelve and Necro in 3s followed this logic so it's weird seeing Chun still needing to mash especially since in 3s lightning legs is at worst useless and at best situational.
Super interesting video, and definitely something I will keep in mind next time the conversation lands on accessibility and motion inputs. Even as someone that casually played SFIV Honda, I never realized the hidden nuances of these systems, so it was frankly a bit of a shock. One minor critique with the video is the music choice. We're talking about the evolution of a classic input, its applications, faults and options, but it sounds like we're about to nail Honda for workers rights violations at his public bath. Something a little lighter for a fun topic like this would have been appreciated. Regardless, it's great to see someone output other FGC-stuff than news coverage, Ranked Queue and "impossible" combo-trials. Keep up the good work and stay safe out there.
On that last note: I completely agree. One of the biggest things I love about fighting games is that, at a low level, they're the most accessible game genre to ever exist. In a platformer, FPS, or racing game, you need to be told what to do or you'll never succeed. How are you suppose to know how to counter an enemy on your own outside of accidents? It isn't like all the buttons trigger similar actions which allows you to complete low level goals with ease with random button presses. I almost never understand the goal of FPS games, as kill counts mixed with timers and how the game keeps score varies too much between games. Racing games have clear goals but unclear means of succeeding at those goals at low levels. Fighting games have only one goal: smack the dude. That is what makes fighting games so readable. I really wished fighting games made a push for readability as opposed to accessibility because fighting games are already easy to beginners... and most beginners never make it to intermediate. Honda's slap wasn't made more accessible over time, just more readable. More people understood how it worked overtime, so it got more use out of everybody instead of less. Removing or automating mechanics is the complete opposite of readability but what accessibility always boils down to.
I tend to hear people say they hate mash input moves which is somewhat understandable since they look like baby-friendly tools while being awkwardly inconsistent if you are not used to them. But they are so nuance yet useful on the characters that they appear on. I tend to play those characters so I know they aren't super easy, they just lack the complexity of a motion input. They are easily beaten due to short reach and the long animation you are stuck in while also being okay for either offense or defense. I guess what I am saying is I like them contrary to what most people may think.
Wouldn't it be so cool if fighting games told us about shit like pianoing, option selects, and other stuff like that? Imagine putting those types of tips in, say, the loading screens. Like, you're queueing for a match and the screen says something like, "Rapid button inputs don't require you to use the same strength for every press; as long as you press five times within a certain window, you can switch between the different strengths. For example, Chun-Li's Hyakuretsukyaku can be executed by inputting LK, MK, HK, LK, HK." That explanation could definitely be more succinct, but it'd be so cool if we could just see little tips like that plastered throughout these different games.
you can "double/triple pick" a button in sf2 to activate this. it makes more sense if anyone plays bass with fingers. you kinda "piano" a single button, also, great for crouching jabs from a turtling guile.
It is much slower. piano input with different buttons 5 times needs only 5 frames. But same input method with one botton needs 10 frames because releasing the button requires at least 1 frame.
I can't say I agree about "developers shouldn't punish players for mashing" and "if they wanted wolverines movement to be worse they could just make it worse". On the first one, idk that's just like your opinion lol I don't see why a game can't be designed that way. On the second, if this makes fast movement "harder" but not "impossible" there's a big difference between that balancing solution and "just nerfing it outright" ya know? Now it's a gradient of possible outcomes and skill. There's more to that philosophy than you gave it credit I think
it's a pretty weird comment to me given how much of the discussion around motion inputs is about their utility as a balancing tool in making some things harder ("deserved" for skill) but not impossible, yeah. maybe he doesnt believe that (and certainly there are other arguments for them) but i couldve sworn he'd raised the point in another video.
@@esthersmith3056 I haven’t played MvC, but it’s probably just down to how it feels with wolverine. Motion inputs can be hard, yes, but they’re also inherently fun for a lot of players- they add a tactile element and help to make it feel like you yourself are performing the move rather than just the character. Wolverine’s movement getting interrupted so he can slice at the air is very clearly not that. Rather than being a tool to help draw you into the game, it’s very transparently a barrier between you and it; it practically slaps you in the face with how arbitrary it is. There’s also the fact that while failing a motion input can lead to you using the wrong move, it’s rare that the move that comes out is just abysmal, much less that it’s intentionally designed to be so. It really just *sounds* like it’d feel awful to play with, and like it wouldn’t stop feeling awful to play with even when you can consistently get around it.
It's really interesting to think about how mash specials evolved, but to be totally honest, I'd rather just make them normal inputs. Take SFV Chun-she can do Lightning Legs with QCF+K or mash K, and I personally like that. I wish Honda and Ed had something like that.
if i told you to make ken a charge character because i dont like motions would you have an issue? the mash needs to be left alone. you either dive in and learn how to do it or you just play the character on a more casual level.
@@thejunkmanlives those are two different scenarios. I was talking about a different motion for a special (hell I even pointed out that I'm cool with Chun having both a mash special and a motion special). Meanwhile you're suggesting changing the inputs for an entire movelist, that's a pretty extreme leap. I get that you disagree, but the comment wasn't necessary.
@@nebiyuesayas5600 no its the same exact thing. your asking to change my characters moves. not only has the input been a mash since 92 the input justifies the properties of the move(ie plus on block, high chip, etc). those special move inputs are part of the essence of the character. when you see honda you already know what you need, half circle back for ochio(alpha 3 and i think cvs2 was a 360 tho), charge back for headbutts, charge down for the butt splash and you mash to put hands on someone. try this. imagine you were a vega player for years. all of his moves, combos, buttons etc. just burned into your hands. here comes sf5 and your hype because vega is in at launch. you get on the controls and try to do some wall dives and nothing. hes motion now. its over. this isnt your character. thats what your suggesting. all for what? cause you cant be bothered to learn how to press 4 buttons rapidly?
@@thejunkmanlives the Vega example ain't the best one though, most people who play Vega like that he's a motion character. Vega's thing is speed and mobility, so him being a charge character doesn't make sense. The same argument could be said of Birdie and Nash-in Alpha, they were charge characters and meant to be stand-ins for Balrog and Guile. Now they've gotten a rework and are entirely different playstyles, and the majority of people I'm aware of are happy with that fact. Also, I didn't say I hate mash specials, I said I disliked them. Besides, you're reading into it this much. Every new fighting game requires some relearning due to new mechanics, and while some people might be surprised if a special or character has different inputs, generally the new input is usually better, and most people learn to live with it anyways. Also Honda Hands aren't plus because they're a mash special, that's completely unrelated. They're plus because they're one of his main pressure and neutral tools. Kolin’s Parabellum and Ed's Flicker both have mash inputs (Kolin can mash P or do QCF+P like Chun), but neither of their attacks are plus because it's not meant to be a pressure tool. If anything, making them a motion special would ease his execution. Look at Balrog’s Screw Smash. It used to be a down charge input, but almost no one used it. Then Capcom made it a motion input and people started using it. The move itself didn't get any balance changes-Stand HK>HK Screw Smash>EX Dash Punch is completely unchanged, but people do that combo now because its easier without hurting the other functions of that characters. If Hands was a motion input, Honda players would have an easier time doing, say, Headbutt into hands, or Hand spam when pressuring. I eill concede that the ability to consistently do mash specials is a good skill, but it's not heresy to suggest changing the input.
@@nebiyuesayas5600 again, following your logic you shouldnt have any problem making dragon punch a double tap like ed. nope, you'll respond that isnt the same while arguing to destroy legacy inputs on characters you dont even play. now enter the guy complaining about how inputs arent diverse enough. and btw, i know a hand full of super turbo guys, vega is dead to them. some kid that played vega for 5 seconds in sf4 isnt the person you should be talking to about legacy characters. ffs i had a guy that refused to touch sf5 until honda was in. when then when he was announced he didnt come play until i sent him the move list. the thing is, i understand how important characters are to people. so i would never talk about changing anything. it can be someone i hate like elf. or it could be an obscure character like necro. theres a small population of sf players that are fiending for their character. let them have it. thats what you dont get. thats why this is going in circles. you fine with changing my stuff but the minute i start messing with yours its not the same? give me a break. the worst thing about this back and fourth is that its so fucking easy in sf5. its just 4 pushes and they give u plenty of time to buffer/combo it. honda target combo into hands gives u the first 2 inputs for free. blanka does need to worry about the strength(its either ex or regular) so u can just jam the buttons. u could have took this time writing and learned this easily.
![[#2024MAMA] G-DRAGON - 무제(Untitled, 2014)+POWER+HOME SWEET HOME+뱅뱅뱅+FANTASTIC BABY | Mnet 241123 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Ox29z5Nf1Uk/mqdefault.jpg)
Protip: The harder you mash the button the more damage it does.
To the contrler
Not just in fighting games but in life.
@@RCCrisp ayo 💀🚬
Well this actually true for the first SF game.
like beam supers and some lvl 3's in MVC 3 :)
"Honda players have been dealing with this for two decades."
It's...been three, now.....wow....
Street Fighter II will always be 2 decades old to me. 😣😣😣😣😣
I don’t even play fighting games but this was fascinating
I play fighting games & I didn't even fucking know about this LOOOL!
Play fighting games
Finally, a video for me
I prefer when accessibility is implemented like this. It lowers the skill floor needed for mashing but it also raises the skill ceiling much higher with high skill players being able to get mash moves out in as little frames as possible.
I would love to see more content which explains the depth and nuance behind various fighting game inputs. I was pretty quick to pick up on basic Motion Inputs and the strategy around them, but before watching videos explaining Charge and Mash inputs I had little idea as to their purpose.
Balrog's Turn Around Punch (and similarly Ibuki's Kunai Ikkinage in SFV) are a really cool input
Top Hat Gaming has lots of
amazing videos on fighting games that covers titles in depth
A brand new arcade opened up today near me. No joke. There was tons of button slamming on the fighting games with kids under the age of 17. Also, a lot of “my character is so bad”
Pick out one kid who frequents the arcade a lot and take them aside and teach them the basics. Motion inputs,chaining attacks from light to medium to heavy or whatever, how to charge down-back, how to BLOCK… then sit back and watch the chaos happen.
@@cooldude6269 Obligatory legal disclaimer: Do not stalk and then take strange kids aside when out in public.
@@TheSquareOnes of course. Also OP apparently back in the day nobody really knew how to do a standing 360 because there’s a jump built into the input, so you could tell one kid how to do them (you only need to hit the four cardinal directions in the right order with up last, you’ll have enough time to get the move out while the character is preparing to jump). Imagine showing someone that trick back in the 90s. The arcade would be thrown into chaos
Arcade in 2022? I thought they were all dead! Where do you live bruh? If you don’t mind me asking.
@@prazman Yup, hard to believe. The arcade is at the Smith Haven Mall in Long Island, NY. It was opened by a guy who owns 3 retro game stores. It has at least 40-50 games. I gotta get in touch with him because some of the assist buttons on his MVC2 do not work!
I would love to see a video on obscure or difficult motion inputs.
Double pretzels. Double pretzels for days.
@@Schrau Tiger knees
Something I always find fascinating is how many applications there were for mashing as well as how mash specials changed over time.
In SF2, Chunli and Honda's mash moves all started out as simple damage tools that could sweep fights at low level because they were amon the most damaging single hit moves in the game, as well as being hard to punish due to guard pushback.
By the end of ST, all three could use mash moves to build meter. Honda and Blanka's had combo utility and mash throws. Honda's Hands were a smothering pressure tool, Blanka's electricity combined with his command cash made him a monster on oki, and Chunli... could use hers for meter building. Dee Jay's Machinegun Upper is strictly a combo tool and it gives him TOD.
in SFA2, Chunli is one of most feared characters because her Lightning Legs combined with Custom Combo give her very practical and easy 80% combos.
I love the new style of editing this channel has adopted with open arms
The quality just keeps on getting higher and higher
It's hard not to smile watching it
Great video. Small correction: I think they removed Wolverine's swiss cheese infinite with a patch.
Personally I'm of the opinion that when it comes to "accessibility" the most important thing is to make it easy for people to be able to use all of their tools. Being able to just, get every move a character has to come out shouldn't be very difficult. The challenge should be in using the moves well, or using them in creative ways. You could have a game where all of your moves just have inputs like quarter circles or down down, but you can still have depth with something like specific timings to do bouncing combos off of the wall that are dependent on the exact distance the opponent is from the corner.
Heresy, if you dont have to do 8 frame 720s is it even a fighting game?
Even quarter circles is asking too much, and so is combo timing. It just lends the game to offensively dominated play and you get garbo SFV situations.
SFII had simple enough inputs (made much easier in HD Remix) and much less difficult combos, and is still the best fighting game to date for that. I think it could stand to be made easier like Final Challengers on Switch, and there should be more customizable controls, but still, it's playable.
Viable defensive play doesn't exist in a lot of fighting games, it's there but you're often better served attacking. These are fighting games,not attacking or defending games, both should be viable options working towards victory. Itself a lot less hype to watch someone chip or clock a win but it's more fun than pure rushdown.
There are already games like this. 5 or 6 years ago there was a game that had one button specials.
Speaking as a new-ish player, fighting games feel like a massive step up from other games because controlling the character feels inconsistent. Trying over and over to input quarter circles and dying because I was punching at fullscreen is a crushing feeling, and without any feedback there really isn't a way to "get good". It also really sucks playing on an arcade cab that has a stick that drops inputs. I've finally reached the fun part of fighting games where I'm playing against people, but starting out it felt more like I was fighting the game, which isn't a good first impression.
@@rapidemboar4625 Stick sucks imo. You get more accurate input and less travel using a dpad. The exception is circles and certain other odd inputs, I find.
Whoever edited this video. I want you to know, you're an AMAZING editor. Probably one of the most astounding editors ever! Good job :D
Thanks
As a veteran player of fighters since early childhood, I really appreciate this channel and the effort you go through for each video. Wonderful analysis and looking forward to the next observations.
I wasn't expecting to hear Windhand playing in a fighting game theory video, but I've never been so happy to be surprised
love the new intro!
Capcom vs snk 2 allowed you to mash different strength attacks 5x to get out a mashable special before SF4.
I know this b/c roll cancel specials were a huge part of the game to give invincibility to specials, and when you look up how to do blanka's rc lightning, you can clearly see ppl using different strength punches; There's a yt video by obot64 where a cvs2 player is explaining how to do roll cancel lightning with blanka and he says "fierce, strong, jab, roll, fierce," or HP~MP~LP~LP+LK~HP
Watch the rest of the video, he brings this up.
Getting Heavy Lightning Legs is so hard in Super Turbo
Deejay's punch is even harder to get all the hits
banger vid, dude!
rubbish's editing is clean af as per, too!
Swiss cheese wasn't intended to nerf his movement since plink dashing was also unintended from the developers. It was probably to punish people mashing crouching light.
The production and editing of this video is phenomenal. Keep up the great work! Can’t wait to see more.
The graphic presentation and style of this vid is awesome
Great and informative content, love the editing and research done here.
This explains so much… playing SF4 first as a teen and then going back to SF2 Chun-Li years later made me question everything I knew.
having control of the mash input is a make or break for any blanka/honda/chun li player. once you gain the technique another dimension of the character opens up. the instant i learned to slide i got so many more tools. new combos, hit strings, pressure, mix ups, all became available. it also came with a sense of satisfaction, i was rewarded for the work i put in. the time i spent learning the timing, learning this new technique and leveraging it in my gameplay paid off in a big way.
The video editor is eating good, goddamn.
I never liked mash moves. Like, here's a genre that wants you to be precise, except when it requires you to slam the button like a madman. Everything can be learned, sure, but "precise mashing" is such a counter-intuitive concept to me.
I would highly recommend you give FEXL (fighting ex layer) a shot/spotlight. It's an incredibly well made game and it's the perfect blend of accessibility and high level execution.
I am so glad I caught the Switch Sale last winter!
XD
The production quality on these videos are fantastic. Excellent work amigo.
You will be missed, mash input
I suspect in due time charge characters will be changed to motion as well since motions are in the sacred scripts.
Indie games might bring mashing back.
I'll be happy when all fighting games finally embrace "modern" controls. We shouldn't gatekeep the genre with needless execution difficulty.
Buttons plus directions works for Fantasy Strike, Soul Calibur, and even Smash. Sadly, Smash circles back to betray itself by introducing complex execution via being so utterly broken.
3rd strike has a meter behind the scenes that goes up / needs to be filled when it comes to mash moves. Also I would love to see mash mentioned for doing damage and reducing damage.
These videos are so slickly produced, absolutely wonderful job y'all are doing here.
Accessibility has too many different parts, and you don't even want all of them in the same game. Not every game has to cater to the same crowd as, say, DNF Duel, and that's okay.
Production/editing is so good. great video
What a great video, and a great way to celebrate my birthday thanks for the amazing content
I remember a lot of fights and arguments when kids and teenagerr discovered Blanka shock move because no one at the time didn't know how ro hit him when sf2 was new lol. All you need to do is strong low kick him a inch away from him while he dose the special move.
Can we talk about that amazing 360 controller model lmao
Anyways, something not mentioned in the input window. 2 requires 4 of the same strength in 3 frames (at least, the way it actually works is there's a input counter that increases every press and decrements every frame, the counter must be 4 or more on a given frame where the move can come out for the special to work) . 4 needs 5 input of any strength in 4 frames. 5 needs 4 of any input in 4 frames. The result is V is like exponentially easier than previous games.
your video editing skills are just getting better, man, congratulations
Your videos quality is astonishing!
Idk why, but i really did this minor metal background aesthetic. The backing music makes it feel like you brought a full biker dive bar to a quiet for a scheduled fighting game history lesson, spoken word style.
Idk, the mental image is hilarious to me.
Im a melee player that is a big fan of your work. Keep up the amazing videos
Same I'm a melee player learning more traditional fighters so this type of content is cool to learn about :)
Awesome video. You should do more like these around movement and inputs in fighting games.
What I also remember is that in SF2, light mash specials were super easy, but heavies were hard and I had to mash faster
Very good video. Would love to see more on inputs like this.
SF6: it’s gone
Excellent, excellent video @TheoryFighter! As an 80's baby Honda main since SFII World Warrior was released, this is the conversation I have had difficulty explaining to people when they would accuse E. Honda of being a brain dead character. Higher level gameplay demands a lot of patience, and you really need to pick your spots and not waste actions. E. Honda been nothing but a nice guy to me at tourneys! 🤣 Added to one of my favorites!
Woah. Loving the new production value dude. Hope to see you skyrocket one day
Dude great job the presentation on this video is nuts.
He mentioned roll cancelling again, my most hated and most loved accidental mechanic. desperately wishing for a video on it too.
It’s another great day to get a theory fighter upload
As far as mechanics that punish the player for mashing, I think Punch Planet has a *very* interesting take on this and the one case where a "don't mash" mechanic might actually be okay: Double Time Cancels. DTC are a Roman Cancel-esque mechanic that allows you to cancel specials and non-light normals by double-tapping the button for that move. Unlike Wolverine's Swiss Cheese, this *is* an action that is desirable - it's a key part of combos and pressure. But it *does* discourage mashing, since it can lead to a DTC in a situation where you *don't* want them.
Nice
Ever since I discovered SF2 Champion Edition in 1992 I have always avoided the heavy punch button when attempting the Hundred Hand Slap because it just meant a lot of whiffing heavy punches and leaving yourself very vulnerable. I preferred to use a two-fingered "piano" motion with light punch and medium punch.
I rarely play fighting games but I love this channel.
Your editing is approaching splash wave level
Spicy editing, dude. Very clean and cool
thats some nice depth. SFV looking more fun than strive
Very good essay, props on honing the production quality without overdoing it into annoying over-editing.
If there's one point I'd criticize, is the usage of the term "laggy" when referring to normals. We use "lag" for too many things, I think it'd be better to stick to "long recovery" and such when it comes to moves. Leave lag for non-gameplay things such as network lag, input lag... which are universal.
Thanks!
Shiny
Superb editing and content. Great video overall.
Damn why was the editing so clean? 🔥
4:55 "yo you wanna know how to do a fucking infinity?"
Brilliant video!
I don't mind accessibility as long as it's not "dumbing the game down" like the common critique of it would suggest. And the hundred hand slap example is a wonderful instance where this isn't the case, like you said, because it adds a lot more you can do at the top end which INCREASES the complexity. Another example is the KI 2013 remake (underrated game that was hampered by being a console exclusive). Certainly, linking together moves and specials into a combo is pretty easy, but the complexity comes with your opponent being able to perform a "combo breaker" by basically responding to the strength of the button you are hitting a few times in a row. If you are predictable, your opponent can stop your combo cold. This combines well with the fact that until you use an "ender" ability to complete your combo, you don't get to cash out on most of the damage you did during the combo. This means going for long combos becomes a system of risk vs. reward.
The KI combo system was completely different from anything else I have seen, and with the addition of combo breakers it was a game changer. Instead of "waiting your turn" it added a new depth where the player has to respond. For those just picking up the game, however, it also meant that getting into performing combos was fairly easy. We need more mechanics like this that makes the genre more approachable, but adds depth at the same time.
Funnily enough, KI's combo system actually has a lot in common with the combo system in the dead or alive series.
They needed to slow wolverine down without a direct nerf, so they came up with a way to do that. One of the best nerfs I’ve ever seen, to be honest, because it doesn’t effect good players, only the terrible ones (and wolverine was too easy to not atleast make weaker in some way coming from Vanilla)
Some Third Party Controllers (Pad) have a Turbo button as well, which allows for mash moves to be easy
So keeping fighting games hard is good for people that have an obsessive type of personality, and easy/accessible fighting games are for people that like to play games with friends that involved doing cool things without any knowledge of the game. So character with mash moves are actually noob friendly. They allow a new play the ability to go “woah! That’s cool! What did I do!” So what’s the answer? What’s the best “hard” fg and what’s the best “easy” fg?
I would say that keeping skill floor high is for people that are ok both with "PVE" and pvp meanwhile lowering it is for people that only play pvp.
I would say keeping the skill floor high is bad for everyone but the pro players, which is why FG have such a low retention rate, people that like High skill ceiling pvp games have hundred of game tailored for them to choose from, people that hard inputs and memorizzation can simply play shupsms or rhythm games
Street fighter 4 was the first fighting game I played. But when I went to older game in sf series I found that I cannot execute hhs with the same way I input. This video answers my question. Thanks.
I remember, in the early 90's I used to mash those punch buttons with a vengeance while playing with Honda in Street Fighter 2 !😄
Personally I would have changed mashing with like a DP input (sfxt chun lightning legs)
It makes the move easier to do, makes ex moves easier, and doesn't reduce the technicality of that move (unless the move is like really really strong which imo usually isn't)
Twelve and Necro in 3s followed this logic so it's weird seeing Chun still needing to mash especially since in 3s lightning legs is at worst useless and at best situational.
Usually mash moves have good frame data because they are not easy to input. And I think this is why in sf5 chunli's mash move is punishable on block.
Holy editimg, Batman!
I still think mash moves are too weird for non-arcade controllers. Also Excellent production, the new style you're doing is sick af.
I think I learned how to mash on pad, because I downloaded sf2t on my Xbox 360. It's weird, but mashing feels normal to me
Loved the intro!!!
Honda players have been dealing with it for THREE decades now, you mean. Yes, we're that old now 😭
"Pianoing" in SF4 was really satisfying.
Is that Bongzilla
Super interesting video, and definitely something I will keep in mind next time the conversation lands on accessibility and motion inputs. Even as someone that casually played SFIV Honda, I never realized the hidden nuances of these systems, so it was frankly a bit of a shock.
One minor critique with the video is the music choice. We're talking about the evolution of a classic input, its applications, faults and options, but it sounds like we're about to nail Honda for workers rights violations at his public bath. Something a little lighter for a fun topic like this would have been appreciated.
Regardless, it's great to see someone output other FGC-stuff than news coverage, Ranked Queue and "impossible" combo-trials. Keep up the good work and stay safe out there.
i think the music is the single most polarizing thing about the channel lmao. im still a huge fan but i get why others feel differently.
2:53 Two decades? Try 3 decades. Street fighter 2 has been around since 1991 or so.
yep.
On that last note: I completely agree. One of the biggest things I love about fighting games is that, at a low level, they're the most accessible game genre to ever exist. In a platformer, FPS, or racing game, you need to be told what to do or you'll never succeed. How are you suppose to know how to counter an enemy on your own outside of accidents? It isn't like all the buttons trigger similar actions which allows you to complete low level goals with ease with random button presses. I almost never understand the goal of FPS games, as kill counts mixed with timers and how the game keeps score varies too much between games. Racing games have clear goals but unclear means of succeeding at those goals at low levels.
Fighting games have only one goal: smack the dude. That is what makes fighting games so readable. I really wished fighting games made a push for readability as opposed to accessibility because fighting games are already easy to beginners... and most beginners never make it to intermediate. Honda's slap wasn't made more accessible over time, just more readable. More people understood how it worked overtime, so it got more use out of everybody instead of less. Removing or automating mechanics is the complete opposite of readability but what accessibility always boils down to.
wake up, honey, there's a new theory fighter video
NEW THEORY FIGHTER VID LETS GO
I tend to hear people say they hate mash input moves which is somewhat understandable since they look like baby-friendly tools while being awkwardly inconsistent if you are not used to them. But they are so nuance yet useful on the characters that they appear on. I tend to play those characters so I know they aren't super easy, they just lack the complexity of a motion input. They are easily beaten due to short reach and the long animation you are stuck in while also being okay for either offense or defense. I guess what I am saying is I like them contrary to what most people may think.
The change from a mobile HHS to a standing-only HHS is a big deal.
I can imagine
You're underrated as fuck dude. Keep up the great work!
CvS2 you can piano for mash moves, Blanka RC electricity you press lp, mp, hp, lp+lk, hp.
Well before SF4 days.
That’s a Combat Secretary!
XD
One more for my FGC project...
Mash LP: NOTARIZE
[FlashCancel]
360: File it OFF!
XD
dude rockin the stoner doom again love it
Mashing, also known as: oraoraoraoraORAORAORAORAORAORAAA!!!
...i'll be honest, Mash moves are ones I can never get off
Big jump in production value, great stuff! Glad to see improvement in video making like this.
Wouldn't it be so cool if fighting games told us about shit like pianoing, option selects, and other stuff like that? Imagine putting those types of tips in, say, the loading screens.
Like, you're queueing for a match and the screen says something like, "Rapid button inputs don't require you to use the same strength for every press; as long as you press five times within a certain window, you can switch between the different strengths. For example, Chun-Li's Hyakuretsukyaku can be executed by inputting LK, MK, HK, LK, HK." That explanation could definitely be more succinct, but it'd be so cool if we could just see little tips like that plastered throughout these different games.
Dope vid bro
You gonna need to crab hands that controller to get them slaps out
you can "double/triple pick" a button in sf2 to activate this. it makes more sense if anyone plays bass with fingers. you kinda "piano" a single button, also, great for crouching jabs from a turtling guile.
It is much slower. piano input with different buttons 5 times needs only 5 frames. But same input method with one botton needs 10 frames because releasing the button requires at least 1 frame.
I didn't even know Wolverine had that move in MVC3 lol wow
Sick
0:59 I need a solid number for my nerd brain to get into this kind of input...
OH, THERE IT IS!
XD
Once won an online SF4 match solely using Blanka's electricity. I'll assume my opponent was 5.
O
M
G
XD
Your editing is out of control! So much improvement!
I can't say I agree about "developers shouldn't punish players for mashing" and "if they wanted wolverines movement to be worse they could just make it worse". On the first one, idk that's just like your opinion lol I don't see why a game can't be designed that way. On the second, if this makes fast movement "harder" but not "impossible" there's a big difference between that balancing solution and "just nerfing it outright" ya know? Now it's a gradient of possible outcomes and skill. There's more to that philosophy than you gave it credit I think
it's a pretty weird comment to me given how much of the discussion around motion inputs is about their utility as a balancing tool in making some things harder ("deserved" for skill) but not impossible, yeah. maybe he doesnt believe that (and certainly there are other arguments for them) but i couldve sworn he'd raised the point in another video.
@@esthersmith3056 I haven’t played MvC, but it’s probably just down to how it feels with wolverine. Motion inputs can be hard, yes, but they’re also inherently fun for a lot of players- they add a tactile element and help to make it feel like you yourself are performing the move rather than just the character. Wolverine’s movement getting interrupted so he can slice at the air is very clearly not that. Rather than being a tool to help draw you into the game, it’s very transparently a barrier between you and it; it practically slaps you in the face with how arbitrary it is. There’s also the fact that while failing a motion input can lead to you using the wrong move, it’s rare that the move that comes out is just abysmal, much less that it’s intentionally designed to be so. It really just *sounds* like it’d feel awful to play with, and like it wouldn’t stop feeling awful to play with even when you can consistently get around it.
Thank god its gone now
It's really interesting to think about how mash specials evolved, but to be totally honest, I'd rather just make them normal inputs. Take SFV Chun-she can do Lightning Legs with QCF+K or mash K, and I personally like that. I wish Honda and Ed had something like that.
if i told you to make ken a charge character because i dont like motions would you have an issue? the mash needs to be left alone. you either dive in and learn how to do it or you just play the character on a more casual level.
@@thejunkmanlives those are two different scenarios. I was talking about a different motion for a special (hell I even pointed out that I'm cool with Chun having both a mash special and a motion special). Meanwhile you're suggesting changing the inputs for an entire movelist, that's a pretty extreme leap. I get that you disagree, but the comment wasn't necessary.
@@nebiyuesayas5600 no its the same exact thing. your asking to change my characters moves. not only has the input been a mash since 92 the input justifies the properties of the move(ie plus on block, high chip, etc). those special move inputs are part of the essence of the character. when you see honda you already know what you need, half circle back for ochio(alpha 3 and i think cvs2 was a 360 tho), charge back for headbutts, charge down for the butt splash and you mash to put hands on someone.
try this. imagine you were a vega player for years. all of his moves, combos, buttons etc. just burned into your hands. here comes sf5 and your hype because vega is in at launch. you get on the controls and try to do some wall dives and nothing. hes motion now. its over. this isnt your character. thats what your suggesting. all for what? cause you cant be bothered to learn how to press 4 buttons rapidly?
@@thejunkmanlives the Vega example ain't the best one though, most people who play Vega like that he's a motion character. Vega's thing is speed and mobility, so him being a charge character doesn't make sense. The same argument could be said of Birdie and Nash-in Alpha, they were charge characters and meant to be stand-ins for Balrog and Guile. Now they've gotten a rework and are entirely different playstyles, and the majority of people I'm aware of are happy with that fact.
Also, I didn't say I hate mash specials, I said I disliked them. Besides, you're reading into it this much. Every new fighting game requires some relearning due to new mechanics, and while some people might be surprised if a special or character has different inputs, generally the new input is usually better, and most people learn to live with it anyways.
Also Honda Hands aren't plus because they're a mash special, that's completely unrelated. They're plus because they're one of his main pressure and neutral tools. Kolin’s Parabellum and Ed's Flicker both have mash inputs (Kolin can mash P or do QCF+P like Chun), but neither of their attacks are plus because it's not meant to be a pressure tool.
If anything, making them a motion special would ease his execution. Look at Balrog’s Screw Smash. It used to be a down charge input, but almost no one used it. Then Capcom made it a motion input and people started using it. The move itself didn't get any balance changes-Stand HK>HK Screw Smash>EX Dash Punch is completely unchanged, but people do that combo now because its easier without hurting the other functions of that characters.
If Hands was a motion input, Honda players would have an easier time doing, say, Headbutt into hands, or Hand spam when pressuring. I eill concede that the ability to consistently do mash specials is a good skill, but it's not heresy to suggest changing the input.
@@nebiyuesayas5600 again, following your logic you shouldnt have any problem making dragon punch a double tap like ed. nope, you'll respond that isnt the same while arguing to destroy legacy inputs on characters you dont even play. now enter the guy complaining about how inputs arent diverse enough.
and btw, i know a hand full of super turbo guys, vega is dead to them. some kid that played vega for 5 seconds in sf4 isnt the person you should be talking to about legacy characters. ffs i had a guy that refused to touch sf5 until honda was in. when then when he was announced he didnt come play until i sent him the move list.
the thing is, i understand how important characters are to people. so i would never talk about changing anything. it can be someone i hate like elf. or it could be an obscure character like necro. theres a small population of sf players that are fiending for their character. let them have it. thats what you dont get. thats why this is going in circles. you fine with changing my stuff but the minute i start messing with yours its not the same? give me a break.
the worst thing about this back and fourth is that its so fucking easy in sf5. its just 4 pushes and they give u plenty of time to buffer/combo it. honda target combo into hands gives u the first 2 inputs for free. blanka does need to worry about the strength(its either ex or regular) so u can just jam the buttons. u could have took this time writing and learned this easily.
And now its evolved to no longer existing