Another indirect (relative) buff to Valor is that their AC boost is now better than a feat rather than equal since shield training is no longer part of Moderately Armored.
I don’t think OP was suggesting it as a dip when there’s no synergy. You should dip paladin for charisma caster, btw. Cleric is old news now that multiclass half-casters round up.
@@skullkrusher-dx4kg Agreed, I was referring mostly to how Valor compares to other Bard subclasses. Other classes that are just looking for a quick way to get medium armour and shields would rather stick to Cleric or a martial like Fighter or Paladin.
@@AndreAlbuquerque-uk2oi Yeah, they got swapped to Artificer style multiclassing since they moved Spellcasting down to level 1, rounding down could lead to actually losing spellslots in some rare occasions in the playtest Artificer when they were round down but Spellcasting at level 1 (If I recall the problem was Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster X/round down Artificer 1 where X is any level not divisible by 3 as their single class progression was essentially rounding up but multiclass was rounding down)
I think an overlooked but very impactful change for bard is the buff to true strike. Bards now have a premium damage dealing cantrip at both melee and range.
@@BettoramirezI have a difficult time getting lvl 14 Battle Magic to be good. To me it's just a rapier or crossbow attack. What do you see that I am missing?
@@hawkname1234yeah it’s still dumb that this is happening. I’d go with what the dungeon dudes said and wished their maneuvers didn’t cost all their snek att damage.
@@hawkname1234 Well, Bard can eat a larger portion of it between having any 3 skill proficiencies and the same amount of expertise eventually. Lore Bard takes even more of it with 3 extra proficiencies at level 3. So the only thing Rogue really has is reliable talent, but the Bard gets access to spells that just circumvent a lot of skill challenges anyways, with their full caster progression and eventual access to all of the best spells in the game. lol
The bloodied condition makes a huge differance for power word kill. You are allways allowed to know when someone is put below 50%, and thus you know their max hp and their current one. That spell has become a lot better due to it.
You don't necessarily know what their max hp is, as lot of combats include lot of enemies and hit points going up and down all the time which makes it really hard to keep track of exact hit points of anything.
@@Klaital1 meaning that if someone is paying very close attention to the health pool of 1 creature they can get an approximation of their max and remaining HP. You don't need to pay attention to every monster, just the one you want PWK. If you know it's bloodied, all it really takes is writing down how much damage it took
@@apjapki I mean it is a condition that the monster has so yeah? Regardless the DN will have to describe what the monster looks like as combat progresses. Bloodied is mostly to make that easier
There is one other change to Bardic Inspiration, in that it now only can be used on failed D20 tests. Nice QoL change, but also limits it from being used on say Initiative, or on checks with degrees of success where you hit a degree of success but not the highest.
@@AndreAlbuquerque-uk2oi There's examples of it on p242 of the 5e DMG. Things like a DM might allow someone who failed the DEX save for a Fireball by 1 or 2 to count as having succeeded, but end up Prone, or maybe just barely failing the DC of a climb check might mean you make it but the tether line to the rest of the party is dangerously close to breaking.
Regarding Cutting Words, a part from not working if the creature couldn't hear you it also didn't work against creatures immune to charm, which are quite a lot at high levels. That's actually a big buff imo
It may be able to be used more consistently. But the point that treant has made, and I agree with, is that I’d rather use that inspiration on not being frightened, charmed, paralyzed, etc (which are all wisdom saves that bards aren’t usually great at). I’d consider using it if it was the difference between an ally going down and not, but that will not be the case a lot of the time. That said, it’s an option!
Aside that, another actually notable nerf is that Cutting Words now subtracts from an ability check that "succeeds." That means you can no longer Cutting Words an enemy's Initiative, since there's no success/failure state to Initiative rolls. I think it's a net gain to be able to no longer worry about Charmed immunity, but it's a bittersweet victory. Also applies to Peerless Skill, sadly. I don't think it's the premier Bard subclass anymore.
A funny thing is I listen to the Glass Cannon Network. I think it was a couple weeks back where they actually talk about you and remembering how they read your guides for Pathfinder 1E on message boards (they're now playing 2E in almost every campaign they do except their series Legacy of the Ancients, which is a Rise of the Runelords campaign). It was a pretty wholesome mention and wanted you to know they there was a pretty nostalgic callback to you on a pretty popular podcast.
Not only that but it's close to medium armor and shield WITHOU having to carry a shield. Not a problem for everyone, but tables that care about somatic casting rules it can be important to have free hands
One thing in the Lore Bard's favor is that Magical Discoveries doesn't say the 2 spells learned count against your number of prepared spells like the 2014 Additional Magic Secrets feature does, so they have 2 more spells than other Bards.
What version are you looking at? I can't see anywhere that Additonal Magical Secrets counted against spells known? As far as I know they have always been two bonus spells.
Important (though not really) correction: The new Bard, following RAW for Magical Secrets, will max out at 19 of their 22 total prepared spells being able to be from the Cleric/Druid/Wizard spell lists. This happens if you replace one of your Bard spells from Level 1-9 at each level up (11 replaced spells from 10-20) and then select a new spell from those lists each time possible (Level 10, 11, 13, 15, 17-20). EDIT: Of course Lore Bard will beat this number and can have up to 21 of their prepared spells from the Cleric/Druid/Wizard spell lists thanks to Magical Discoveries.
A bit confused still on replacing spells at 10th; does that mean at 10th level I can instantly replace one spell as if I had reached lvl 2-10 so 9 of the spells I already know can be from the other caster’s lists?
@@Coopernicuss Through your first 9 levels, you will have selected 14 Bard spells. At level 10, you gain a new spell. With Magical Secrets, you could select one Cleric/Druid/Wizard spell at that level AND replace one of your Bard spells. So at level 10 you could have 13 Bard spells and 2 non-Bard spells if you wish.
I really like how the power level seems relatively more equal in 2024 than in 2014. The Dance Bard isn't *great* but it's certainly not a trap option! It's usable, even!
@@goodberry4825 At minimum it has a unique and flavorful play style. If it does feel underwhelming its gonna be much easier to give minor buffs or access to items since Bard is so flexible.
@andrewmiddleton3487 Apart from the unarmed strike, all the features work and are nice. Repositioning allies and bonuses to initiative are nice. It might not be super strong, but it's LEAGUES different than 2014 "trap options". In 2014, there were numerous subclasses like Berserker(honestly a lot more barbarian subclasses too), Purple Dragon Knight, and the Alchemist that are so bad that if a new player said they wanted to play one, you might be inclined or even feel obligated as the DM to suggest they play something else that won't absolutely suck. If a player brought a dance bard to my table, I wouldn't feel that for even a moment. It may not be a very *strong* subclass, but the good features it does have are potent enough to succeed in aiding the whole party.
I feel like Lore Bard, more than other bards, should get an something similar to the cleric's domain spell list. Spells like comprehend languages, identify, tongues, legend lore, etc. feel much more thematic to the historian/keeper of knowledge concept that I associate with a lore bard rather than the "I'm really good at insults" vibe that cutting words gives the current Lore Bard.
The only thing I don't really agree with Chris about is his worship of wizards. Like sure they have a couple high level spells that are stupid op, and they don't have to prepare rituals, but that's about it.
Lots of complaints during playtest were that Bards would outshine everyone. Wizard gets Arcane Recovery, Bards get Inspiration, Wizards get great spells, but now Bards can get the same spells, so what's the point of Wizard?
@@wassentme1891 there isn't much unless you want to be the spell book of the party. The sorcerer casts spells better, the bard has access to 3 times the spells, the wizard just has the largest backpack of spells for a day. So in any given moment, he'll have more spell options available, but the sorcerer will cast his smaller selection better, and the bard will be able to select from far more. A well prepared bard will drastically outshine a wizard in most situations. The wizard will sometimes "have an app for that" and then they will shine.
I see it as clearing the air. Those who say bards are better wizards is not true. There are reasons to play wizards, as he points out, yet he praises the new magical secrets. He even ends there video saying the next class he wants to play is a bard, not wizard.
I think another big advantage that clerics, druids, and wizards have over bards is that they prepare their spells every day, so can customize them according to the situation, whereas bards can only switch out spells every level.
yep, for a class sold on being a swiss army knife this was my biggest frustration, 5 years, lvl 16 lore bard and our war cleric has way more utility spell wise. top tip, Fly is a great party buff, the 60' movement has turned us all (upcasting) into monks for movement.
@Erufailon42 Not exactly. They call them prepared spells for every class, but some classes can change their prepared spells every day (cleric, druid, wizard), some classes can change one prepared spell each day (ranger, paladin), and some classes can only change their prepared spells at level up (bard, sorcerer, warlock). So despite calling every class's ready list of spells prepared spells, this means different things for each class. It's not the same as every class being a prepared caster according to the 3.5e/2014 5e definition.
@donaldcrankshaw1627 wow I had not caught on to that at all. I got fooled by the name and thought every spellcaster had been simplified to 2014 style prepared casters lol.
For Dance Bard their AC boost is better than described. Half plate is 15AC plus a max of 2 from Dex for 17, and then 2 from shield for 19. So really if a feat/multi class is worth a difference of 18 AC vs. 19 AC is a lot closer than initially described.
Well it also never specifics you cant use a shield (if multi classed for proficiency) with it (same as barbarian unarmored defense). And with origin feats you can pickup the shield spell at lv 1. So dance bard potentially hits some stupid high ac numbers if built for it.
You sort of glossed over the Valor Bard's 14th Level feature. They can, after using the Attack action to do one weapon attack and one cantrip casting, can do another weapon attack using a bonus action. So now the level 6 and level 14 features synergize with each other!
I suspect (and I suspect Chris suspects based on this thematic note) that Dance Bard is going to be popular outside of optimizer circles. I've heard people say quite a few times they like unarmored defense features simply because they don't like to envision their character in armor all the time.
And he kept saying if you have a good dexterity for a dance bard if you are playing a dance bard why would you not have a good dexterity it's the whole point really
Yes, and I'd hands down play it in an all martial artist/Xianxia style game. I mentioned in the monk video that I'd love to see all the styles in one player party. The classic open hand, xianxia style elemental dao, bard dancer aka house of flying daggers, Barbarian animal fighting style Wild totem, and the Brawler fighter...
Honestly, I love the dancer. I've wanted a subclass that had a flavor similar to that. I wish it got the standard caster extra attack at 6 that allowed one of the attacks to be a cantrip, but hey.
Yea... but if you look at their L3 ability, it's cast (action) and then (bonus) attack AND bardic inspire. Technicaly they get extra attack at L3, BUT it costs inspiration. Not ideal, but starting at L6 you can use your reaction movey trick to move yourself and any ally 1/2 their movement safely on an enemies turn AND punch an enemy for free during their turn. Doesnt have to be the guy in your starting space too. Enemy blackgaurd charges you with a 2 handed sword... ouch. Well now I'm moving to your back line, punching your squishy necromancer friend for free with mageslayer feat to get a juicy concentration check... oh and my paladin friend is moving up to melee with you, Mr. Blackgaurd, just before his turn. I can see this calss being very good with Alert feat.
Another little nicety of the lore Bard's lvl 6 feature is that the swapping out of those spells is independent of the Bard's 1/lvl swap. Thus at lvl 10 you could pick 3 4th lvl non-bard spells by picking 1, swapping 1 regular spell and swapping 1 magical secrets spell.
I gots to come root for my boi the Glamour bard! Love how good my boi is doing! Wanna start by observing a stealthy buff so sneaky that Chris even missed it despite talking about bardic known spells earlier: Glamour gets two great spells known, Mirror Image and Command (forget Charm Person) that they didn’t have before. That means that Glamour and Lore get two more spells known than any of the other bards-really good on a class with limited preparations! I also want to take a moment to admire the wording we see across many classes where we can expend a resource to “restore use of” a feature; in this case, expending Bardic Inspiration to restore use of Beguiling Magic. This wording is extremely generous inasmuch as once we are regaining Bardic Inspiration on short rests (level 5 is just a massive power boost for us considering both level 3 Glamour features rely on Inspiration), we can expend our remaining inspiration just before resting to get Beguiling Magic back, and then we immediately get the inspiration back. Super powerful! As Chris noted, Mantle of Majesty is a lot better than it used to be, though like I noted it also prepares Command for us which it didn’t before. Command has also been buffed inasmuch as the target doesn’t have to understand you anymore, which is huge-though now you can’t invent options for the command anymore, which is honestly probably for the best. Finally while I won’t dispute that Unbreakable Majesty has been nerfed-with the old version you almost WANTED the enemy to make their save so they’d have disadvantage against your next spell, which was super powerful and created a weird incentive to hope the enemy rolled well-the enemy could always just target one of your friends if they failed their save. Now, whenever they fail their save, they just waste the attack. And they could waste a lot of attacks if their Charisma saves are bad. I know everyone’s excited for the shiny new toy in Dance, and Valour’s Extra Attack shenanigans are exciting. But man, Glamour is where it’s AT, baby! We completely glossed over it in Xanathar’s Guide ‘cuz Swords was more exciting, but I’m telling y’all, Glamour is better than ever and we should not ignore it this time! Shell out those temps, burn that bardic inspiration like a ‘14 paladin burning smites, and make your enemies fall to their knees before you!
@@brannenpfister2579 Ah yes CME abuse on a valor bard that has taken a warlock (obviously for agonizing eldritch blast) and evocation wizard dip, so that their cantrip always does at least half damage! It's so nuts I think I'll stick to fount of moonlight, but always hitting for at least half damage is nice though.
Glamour bard has always been one of my favorites for NPCs-- it makes a heck of a great cult leader frame with those bonus action commands. (Though I will miss Enthralling Performance; it was easy to use on an NPC with a crowd) My Big Bad in a high level one shot was a multiclass 6 Glamour/14 Fathomless Warlock trying to summon Cthulhu
This definitely makes me more interested in playing a bard up to high level. Valor seems great. Dance is well themed and I know I’ll see people playing it.
I'm sort of amazed that, after all the time optimizers spent trying to make Eldritch Blast work with the Bladesinger's extra attack feature, the designers went ahead and made it effort-free. I'll miss my puppeteer bard being the JoaT king of Telekinesis ("You are ALL my puppets!") but I think it's a reasonable restriction.
If I’m reading it right I think the level 14 valor bard feature means you will get to make another weapon attack every turn since you will be replacing one of your attacks with something like booming blade or Eldritch blast, which is a spell with a casting time of an action.
That was my thinking as soon as Treant showed the last Valor Bard ability. I won’t say it’s OP, but definitely spicy. Even more so if the Nick mastery can be worked into this. 😁
Dance bard is made for a character using the martial art Capoeira (commonly referred to as dance fighting) and use the related instrument, the berimbau
Valor Bard's Extra Attack also means Loading weapons, such as Muskets and and Heavy Crossbows, are very effective in tandem with Cantrip especially alongside a Warlock Dip for Pact of the Blade. (PotB's obtuse wording means the weapon must be magical to be bonded with ranged weapons however) 2 fun builds I've been thinking of to take Advantage of this: - Valor 14 / Undead Warlock 6 - With Form of Dread and 6 attacks you are sure to get at least one attempt to frighten an enemy. Muskets also could add a modest D12 on top of that. By Max level you can Cast Eldritch Blast with 4 rays, a Musket Attack, and another Musket Attack as a Bonus Action. Further rounding this out is GWM for your 2 attacks for maximum punch. Lastly Eldritch Smite just in case you get a lucky critical and need more dice to explode with. With your gun as a weapon and focus you can live to the true the term Spell Sniper. - Valor 14 / Celestial Warlock 6 This will require a favorable ruling with your DM, however you can atleast still do this build with a Longbow. Take True Strike and stack all the damage features on it. Agonizing Blast and Radiant Soul both add Charisma modifier to the attack on top of Truestrike using your Spell Casting modifier. Lastly adding Great Weapon Master for +6 by 17th level. If it counts as a cantrip then all of those effects stack, but if your DM rules it as weapon attack take a Longbow and it should still work. Your True Strike Ought to be 1d12+3d6+5+5+5+6 by 17thth and you can still make 2 attacks since you did cast a spell. Pair this with Hex, Elemental Weapon / Magical Weapon, and /or Crown of Stars and you are sending some pretty meaty hits down range. 'Replace an Attack' effects were an excellent and subtle buff people will come to appreciate as we familiarize ourselves with the system.
@@Klaital1 It says Summon a melee weapon or bond with a magical weapon. If your DM is more strict than HexBlade subclass should allow for it, but honestly HexBows should be allowed too. Its how my playgroups are running it.
@@schulterderwelt3989 loading property only prevents you from making multiple attacks as part of the same action, it doesn't stop you from attacking once with your action and once with your bonus action with the same loading weapon.
@ 32:15 it definitely makes sense to anyone who has ever been the target of a really good stink-eye...or even a crook-eye! They can definitely be way more cutting than even the most vicious words!
*Dance Bard* can still use *Strength* to *Grapple* as part of the Bonus Action to give *Bardic Inspiration,* leaving your Action free to cast *Cloud of Daggers (CoD).* On the first round of combat, a Grappled foe can take damage from CoD *3 times* _(without needing other PCs),_ if you're willing to burn your uses of *Bardic Inspiration:* 1) *On your turn:* When you *cast CoD* _(on your next turn, you can either _*_move_*_ CoD or _*_move_*_ the Grappled foe out of CoD and back in)._ 2) *On the foe's turn:* If it doesn't *escape* your Grapple _(if it does, hope it ends its turn _*_within 5 feet of you,_*_ so you can use _*_Inspiring Movement_*_ to _*_Grapple_*_ and _*_move_*_ it back into CoD as a Reaction)._ 3) *After the foe's turn ends:* If you use your *Inspiring Movement* Reaction _(to _*_move_*_ the foe out of CoD and back in)._ *Maxing out Strength* before Charisma, this strategy has two potential weaknesses: i) Fewer uses of *Bardic Inspiration* _(so you need another use for your Bonus Action)._ ii) Lower *AC.* *Armor of Agathys (AoA)* can turn your low *AC* into a strength. Since it lasts 1 hour, try to cast it before combat _(or on turns where you don't need your _*_Bonus Action_*_ to Grapple)._ *Upcasting CoD and AoA* lets you deal significant damage to a Grappled foe _(neither spell depends on Charisma, as they don't have saving throws)._ You can gain *AoA* by starting as a *Warlock* _(which also provides _*_Wisdom save_*_ proficiency, _*_Hex_*_ as an alternative to CoD to impose _*_disadvantage on escape checks,_*_ and _*_Eldritch Mind_*_ for maintaining Concentration)._ Alternatively, you can get *AoA* from *Mark of Warding Dwarf,* or the *Rune Shaper* origin feat _(if your table allows content from Eberron or Bigby's, respectively)._ The feat is part of the *Rune Carver* background, a perfect fit for the new *Goliath* _(using _*_Stone's Endurance_*_ to make _*_AoA_*_ last longer and _*_Large Form_*_ to increase your _*_Speed_*_ to 45)._ The *Grappler feat* is only worth considering if you start as a *Fighter* _(for _*_Unarmed Fighting_*_ style, _*_Con save_*_ proficiency, and _*_heavy armor + shield_*_ training),_ or if your DM allows your *Unarmed Strike* to use either *Dex* for its DC or *Str* for its damage _(to address _*_Dance Bard's_*_ inherent anti-synergy)._
"Just because you can access Wizard spells does not make you a Wizard." The mistake is thinking a Bard is trying to be a Wizard. Having access to Cleric and Druid spells is an advantage Wizards don't have. p.s. Cutting Words applies to AoE spells cast against your party, so it can prevent a lot of total damage.
It makes you better than a wizard. Litterally. You have expertise in 4 skills to the wizards 1, all their unique spells, and Bardic inspiration. Lets just also ignore their better equipment proficiencies and higher HP.
Yes, this! Is the bard a better wizard than the wizard? Of course not. But that's not what makes bards good. I super don't understand the comparison, bards are a completely different thing.
Bardic Inspiration got a small buff. Previous wording was as follows: "The creature can wait until after it rolls the d20 before deciding to use the Bardic Inspiration die, but must decide before the DM says whether the roll succeeds or fails." Now the creature knows it failed before it tries to use the inspiration.
Dance Bard seems like the fruit of thematic multiclass theorycrafting. Those Monk + Wis caster multiclasses that took way too long to get to higher spell levels now have the built in casting potency they lacked. And with the changes to Magical Secrets they get even more options than that hybrid ever could. If anything, I do feel as if the learning curve of optimizing Inspiration uses is going to be a lot greater for this subclass than its counterparts.
I think you are underrating the lore bards magical discoveries ability. You can replace these spells with higher level spells as you level up which means you can get wall of force at level 9 and 4th level spells from other classes at level 7
I do think you overvalue rituals when comparing wizards to the other spellcasters. It’s definitely good to have an effectively larger list of “prepared” spells than other classes, but imo there aren’t enough rituals to make that gap as wide as you seem to imply, and the power you get from those rituals is also not as world-shaping as you seem to imply.
Wizard's with rituals are a non-thing. All other casters get 2-16 more spells prepared a day through their subclass mechanics. Even if you prepared all ritual spells with these extra subclass spells as non-wizards, you'd probably have more spells available than the wizard including all their rituals. Wizards are hands down the worst arcane caster class atm.
@rogerexcell249 other spellcasters only get a few good spells out of the *10 spells that are automatically prepared* from your *subclass.* Automatically prepared spells are _not equal_ to spells that you *select* from the best and largest spell list.
All I'm hearing is "dude, a team with a wizard and a bard on it is busted" imagine like this: the wizard gets a "second wizard" that can cast the heavy hitter must have wizard spells you want someone to be concentrating on while also NOT doubling up on ritual casting (you don't NEED more then one guy on a team able to do it) and also able to aid in saving throws and attack rolls and such to protect eachother. Juicy fun. It's almost like this is a team game~
It's not really shitting on bards being realistic about their spell list. There's a reason why so many bards are stuck upcasting Dissonant Whispers until they get Magical Secrets. The bard spell list is quite literally designed to have barely any damage spells, which you can't tell me doesn't cause problems because all your utility/control spells are concentration, meaning that once you have one up there's only one thing you can do (blasting). Having to wait until the very end of Tier 2 to get Bigby's Hand and then Magical Secrets sucks. For any prewritten module, that is basically at the very end. I wouldn't play anything other than a Lore Bard in something like Curse of Strahd for example, where the campaign will end before you can really even get Magical Secrets. Wouldn't be fun being forced to use a bunch of spells that won't affect all the undead and the like in Barovia because they are immune to charmed and frightened. A module like Strixhaven doesn't even get that far.
Long time subscriber. Just wanna say thanks. I’ve shared and am sharing many of your videos with my group of 7, 4 of whom are in their first campaign. And using them for myself of course!
I must say that since most play is t1,2 and maybe start of 3 i think that Lore should be higher, because spell are so good. As for valor/dance i would mention that now that you cannot get both medium armor and shields with a single feat value of the armor options they provide is much greater.
I slightly disagree with Chris downplaying the potential of cutting words with regards to the amount of ability checks that are in 2024 , specifically escaping effects like grappled or restrained. I know it’s niche… but a cutting words bard in a cheese grater party is gonna pop off
Grapple has been made into a save, and thus have a lot of monster abilities that give either condition to a player. So it wouldn't actually have an effect on that roll.
Slight correction: magical secrets isn’t every bard level, it’s every level you gain +1 (or more) new prepared spells. These levels are 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, & 20. At most, this will give you 16 of your 22 spells (18 of 24 if lore bard) which can be taken from other lists (assuming you always swap out a bard spell at those levels for a non bard spell, in addition to selecting a non bard spell with your new prepared spell). A 20th level bard will have a minimum of 6 bard spells (not counting cantrips) from spell levels 1-5 (more if they choose higher level bard spells or swap out any of their cantrips).
_"In addition, whenever you replace a spell prepared for this class, you can replace it with a spell from those lists."_ If you choose to replace a Bard spell every level, you will only have 3 Bard spells remaining as a level 20 Bard.
I think they got rid of the creature needing to hear you in order to effect a creature with Cutting Words because Common Sign Language is now an officially supported D&D language. Tangentially related because I don't know any form of Sign Language, but personally, I like the idea of giving the creature a middle finger as my Cutting Words even though "Words" seems to imply speaking aloud; OR maybe, a mean girls inspired character who just rolls their eyes at the creature.
So, here's my take on the dance bard: making an unarmed attack against an enemy is super niche, it's going to be very little damage at the cost of being in melee range. However, grappling and shoving is a different matter altogether: say that an enemy ends their turn next to you and another frail character: you can use your bardic inspiration to proc inspiring movement, you get an unarmed strike and you use it on your ally to grapple them, you move away together and the barbarian uses their reaction to move in! Even earlier, say that an enemy is very far away from the paladin, they would destroy them, but they can only move 30 ft and you're 60ft away: you cast longstrider on the paladin, inspire them and grapple them, move 15ft towards the enemy, then when the paladin is moving you shove them as an opportunity attack! Now, this is obviously enhanced by grappler, but I don't think I'd take it. What I would take, Chris, is LIGHTLY ARMOURED! You asked who's that for, and there it is, draconic sorcerers and dance bards! They would really love to get a shield, ignoring light armour! 10+3+5+2 makes 20AC, which is very good
9:42 I love how much time was spent durring Magical Secrets talking about... how much better a wizard is at casting. Weird flex, but ok, lol. I think losing the ability to snipe paladin spells in particular is a big loss, but it was necessary. It was a little silly that level 10 Bards got the spells classes like Ranger and Paladin had to wait until Level 17 to get. Still, getting your spell list expanded to include most other casters' is huge for customization and build flexibility.
Because there's A LOT of people that not only think Bard is now objectively better, but think that the Bard didn't have access to all the spells in the first place. Many players just don't read their features apparently lol.
It's due to how much comments treantmonk gets that disagree with him about wozards being the best class still, including from other competent content creators. He is just really into fighting those opinions. My take is that the gap in spellcasting flexibility between wizards and other full casters has shrunk and those other classes' extra features were improved enough that they pulled ahead of the wizard.
@cooperton4949 Well in 5e Wizard was just the best. Now it's a bit more competitive between the 3 though, but players saying that Bard is 100% better have been making a lot of incorrect statements on it, so I see why he feels the need to clarify things.
Just wanted to pop in and let you know how much I've been enjoying your coverage of the latest core rule updates and how valuable it's been to go back and watch a lot of your early game spell tier lists, subbed and I really hope you get to 100K soon, that's amazing, keep up the good work :-).
7:57 “Whenever you reach a Bard level and the Prepared Spells number increases, you can choose new spells from …” Levels 12, 14, and 16 are the ones without an increase to Prepared Spells!
@rodneyrossow replacing 11 out of 14 spells as a 20th level Bard is more than enough. It's not like there doesn't exist 3 good Bard spells of levels 1-5.
Thanks for these reviews Chris. So far I'm most excited for Barbarian and Warlock. I've built a polearm master build with Lock,Barb, and Fighter(for fighting style).
Unbreakable Majesty. This feature gains a lot if you have a good AC, so you only have to deflect the small number of attacks that still hit. However, bards have a bad AC. It *does* help the group by absorbing (rather than redirecting) attacks. Magical Discoveries: These two spells don't count against your number of spells prepared, so two extra spells prepared.
Ok, so, can I just say, Peerless skill isn't once per turn I would never have thought of this, but I mean this does mean that it works on scorching ray, which you can get at level 6 on a lore bard, which does stack with say, fount of moonlight, One other change to magical discoveries, you can change out the spell, meaning that at level 7, you can change the 3rd level fireball to a 4th level spell, for example, like watery sphere, or conjure fey I'm just saying that in exchange for bards getting stuff sooner, this is very good at those lower levels, probably more so than before
I do like that the new magical secrets allows for some very wide ranging bard concepts. If you want, you can be a cleric or Druid crossover caster - idk how strong that is but it’s definitely fun IMO
There's been some discussion that the Dance Bard's niche, whether intended or not, is being able to use the unarmed Agile Strike to grapple a teammate using an Emanation (e.g. Spirit Guardians, etc.). The teammate would willingly fail the save against the grapple, so no need to worry about investing in STR or DEX (with a Monk dip). Then you can do whatever else you can do on your turn, including casting your own Emanation, then drag both you and your friend into a favorable position. Think of it as grabbing your dance partner with the two of you swing dancing all over the dance floor (battlefield) while your enemies are searing in holy spirit auras.
Technicly... the L6 ability allows you to just have you and the ally within 30' move at the end of the enemy's turn if they end next to you for a reaction. There's no grapple. They just move on the enemy's turn for up to half their movement. Independant of you moving yourself. You can skip 15' towards the back line and, since you spend a bardic inspiration to move, you can free punch the enemy necromancer in the face after you move... and the ally can charge 15' into melee, or out of an AOE, or wherever they want. Even if you both run away from each other. The emenation damage occurs if a target enters the field and were not already in it during this move for most spell effects, so yes you can use your reaction to punch someone, and move yourself and an ally outside your turn. Imagine if you both had different emenations active (since the same spell effect cant affect the same target twice). That is indeed extra damage outside of your turn.
@@rogerexcell249 Add in a third party member with an emanation and they could be the one you grapple and drag. You can use your features to move three people.
The Dance Bard feels like a trap. It lacks any features that support a melee play style. Bardic Damage at best reduces the gap between unarmed and weapons I could already use, but doesn’t allow using Dexterity for Grappling (which might actually be useful). Agile strikes might as well be a ribbon feature. I don’t want to be anywhere near the melee because generally the best thing I can do is maintain concentration on a control spell. Inspiring movement is a decent oh crap button, but super situational because an enemy is almost never going to get within 5’ of me. Likewise, the range on Leading Evasion means that it’s basically never going to benefit anyone but me. Tandem footwork is literally the only reason to even consider this subclass. I wish they would have either gone all in on making this a melee build or even better, leaned into the teamwork aspect and made it more like the Warlord. 2-2.5/5 and its only that high because of the group initiative bonus. Arguably the weakest subclass in the 2024 PHB.
It definitely isnt up there with a monk, but I think its better than it looks... It gets evasion late though at L14, which at least applies evasion to adjacent allies. Thats pretty good to be fair. If you can get that far, you have an evasion aura for the party. If you stand next to the other party casters or healer, at L6 when the enemy stops within 5' of you, you can disengage with a reaction, taking your frfiend with you drawing the caster out of melee. Since this cost an inspiration you get to Unarmed strike them for free too, giving you an attack outside of your turn. I do feel their lack of Extra attack feature a mistake, honestly I'd have given that at L6 too, but I can display below why that was done IMO. Still it gets a full leveled spell, followed by an melee strike same as the Valor bard, but you're also getting to inspire your party unlike the Valor bard. The Valor bard misses out on the party inspiration if its uses it's attacks. Side by side: Level gained Dance Valor 2xattack 3+inspiration 6+inspiration Cantrip+attack 14+Inspiration 6+inspiration Leveled spell+attack 3+inspiration 14-no inspiration So: L3-5 Dance>Valor L6-13 Valor>Dance L14+ Dance>Valor. BUT if you focus on attacks or leveled spells and not cantrips, the dancer stays ahead, especially given their L6 ability to get a reaction melee hit. Worth noting, you can hit AFTER you move so you can use the 1/2 movement to move out of melee with the greatsword wielder, walk up to their mage, and puch them in the face with mage slayer for example... that sounds fun! AC 20 on dancer is highly possible (+5 dex and +5 Cha), compared to Valor's 19ac (shield+Medium). I'm ignoring magic items. They come out about the same, it comes down to how you want to look and play. Do you want to be dressed in a fine ballgown slash jester motley while inspiring or repositioning your party, or tromp around the battlefield in a metal brestplate wielding a sword and board or a Zweihander while keeping those inspirations for your own AC?
I loved Song of Rest! I could quote cool song lyrics every single short rest and as long as I was a just a little bit less annoying than the value of a d6, then everyone would have no choice but to sit there & listen!
lol the demilitch scream has a very interesting interaction with new countercharm. the fail is drop to 0 hp and successful means you're frightened. technically it still lets you reroll with adv since it's "an effect that applies the charmed or frightened condition." (DM discretion of course)
Phoenix Sorc + Glamour: play a travelling faith healer with a circus tent-style base for the party. (Think 80s televangelist.) They're ostensibly your staff/security, and you travel the realm. Wronging rights, rescuing dragons from foul maidens, etc. Get Mansion, have the 'staff' do massage, vet work, whatever for villages. Get Regeneration, Mending, everythimg for the part. You'l be beloved wherever you go.
Unbreakable Majesty had a buff you didn't mention: In the old version, attackers who failed their saving throw could simply redirect their attack to another one of your friends. In the new version, they miss, losing the attack entirely. When dealing with enemies without multiattack, the new version is strictly better. For enemies with multiattack, it's debatable whether this is an overall nerf or buff.
28:00 I don't think this feature adds concentration to comand spell itself. The state in which you can continuously casting comand is what you're concentrating on as if it was a spell. The important difference would be that if you drop the concentration before the creature you've casted it on gets its turn then the spell still takes effect.
I think most people are saying bards are better than wizards are focused on the fact that wizards hardly got any new shiny things and a lot of other classes did.
While it’s true that wizards are still probably the best casters, the bard is now the most versatile caster by far, if not the most versatile class by far. Especially valor bards, which are good at everything. I don’t think bard is the best class in the game, but I think that it’s useful in any party, even more than it was before
They are hands down the worst casters though. Wizards I mean. Bards do everything they do but with more AC, Hp and proficiencies, skill or otherwise. Sorcerers are better at all control magic, counterspelling, dispelling, damage output and have a higher spell DC, all while benefiting from longer range, longer durations or the joys of subtle magics on the side. The Warlocks are better hands down when you're both out of spells for sustained damage output usually with cantrips, but now with melee too. All the listed classes have more spells prepared than the wizard. Wizards only get one advantage. They can swap 1 spell on a nap, and 1 per long rest, but hey... the other casters had 2-14 more spells prepared to begin with so possibly already had them ready to go without this feature.
Lore wise Creation Bard is one of the strongest assets for a faction to have in the ecology of the game, along with several magic items from Tasha’s, and Blood Magic Wizards (Partnered) There are many ways to ignore up to 1,000 GP of material components and thus amass extremely huge armies of Planar Bound and Summed Demons, Devils, Unicorns (Wild Magic) and possibly even the Tasha’s summons Celestials, Fiends, Elementals, and Fey in conjunction with mordenkainen’s Private sanctum and a ring of spell storing The main drawback to these things is 1000 GP per 180/360 days PER minion is the material cost, but with a high level creation bard those costs are null and so 400 CR 6-9 minions per high level wizard, permanently; for free. Turns Forgotten Realms/your setting into Warhammer Fantasy if every college of Wizards, Kingdom, or cloister Mages has a few creation bards, a Tasha’s shard, or a Blood Mage-
As someone who's table rolls for stats and usually rolls damn well, the Dance unarmored defense almost guarantees me a 20AC and good to-hit chance. Yes, please. Shame they don't get extra attack though. Feels like striking is so minor for them.
Chris plays trumpet? Now we need him in a band with Pack Tactics on bagpipes and Colby on vocals. Not sure if any songs exist with bagpipes and trumpets together but I'm sure we can come up with something
Pedantic correction: Over the first 9 levels, you get 14 Prepared Spells. Oner 10th through 20th, you can only sub out 11 of them, so you will always have at least 3 spells from the Bard list rather than getting to replace them all. That's not a huge down side, but it is true.
I would say depending how your table plays the bars could be stronger than a wizard, with the way may table plays it definitely seems that way because we don’t really have the need for rituals very much
@@apjapki yes I know that. I read the fine print. Point is that you get it. And since swords bard is still the only bard with built in fighting styles, it makes it better.
Not even considering the use of “conjure minor elementals” which will break almost any campaign at higher levels, the Valor bard is amazing starting from 3rd level with crazy good scaling all the way through the game to 20th level. At 6th level you will have full spell casting, the same # of attacks as a fighter, the best skills of any class and Bardic Inspiration. By 13th-level, the Valor Bard, with dual fighting, Agonizing Blast, and any summoning spell, will be able to sustain a total of nine fully powered attacks. This includes 3 from Agonizing Blast, 3 from dual wielding, and 3 from any summon creature spell, amounting to ~100 sustained DPR. Additionally, the valor bard will have a vast array of defensive options by this point to block most damage, with access to the best spells in the game (from the 3 main lists), and the best skills of any class. If this doesn’t make the Valor Bard a 5/5, I’m not sure what else would ever get that ranking. The attack cantrip replacement at 6th level really puts this subclass over the top, especially with the way it combines with Agonizing blast. That feature should be reserved for the Eldritch Knight, which is a half caster. Personally I can't see the point of playing anything else now. An entire party of Valor bards will blow through any module like it's a joke. I'd love to see Chris run a module, or even a single shot with 5, fully optimized, 13th level Valor Bards just as an experiment to see what happens!
...if its a campaign designed to challenge optimized parties, wouldnt you just wipe at the first encounter due to not having a paladin for saving throws? Or wouldnt you just not survive in melee since nothing can? Like what kind of one short are we talking here? One thats designed to challenge shepard druids and peacechrons?
@@randomnobody660 A team of five 13th-level valor bards would overwhelmingly dominate any published module or campaign without extensive DM modifications. Collectively, they would inflict over 400 damage per round, potentially defeating almost any monster in the monster manual within a round or two. Defensively, they’re even more OP. With a full team of bards, they would all benefit from a constant d10 bardic inspiration die, effectively adding an average of +5 to any roll when it's needed. Furthermore, they would have top-tier defenses with spells like Shield, Counterspell, and Absorb Elements available at all times. This setup would allow them to counter and annihilate enemy casters while side stepping (or flying over) damage from any melee foes they might face. Furthermore, with one human bard in the party ideally taking the musician and alert feats, the others could then opt for alert and lucky feats, maximizing out their initiatives and gaining advantage on nearly all of their critical saves. This configuration would then permit each bard to reroll a single roll via heroic inspiration if all else fails. If somehow all of that fails, each bard on the team would have the ability to negate nearly any adverse condition in the game (including death) given their full access to all 3 major spell lists. Further optimizing this team, one or two of the bards could take 6 levels of Paladin (along with 7 levels of Valor Bard), which would be a fantastic addition for the extra +5 to all of their saves, while still maintaining the key abilities noted above. Looking at it another way, a single Valor Bard in a mixed party would overshadow both melee damage dealers as well as casters due to their access to comprehensive spell lists, insane sustained damage, and their superior skills, coupled with their extensive buffing abilities.
@@RyanWilmot As is a single optimized caster with a bunch of champion fighters can dominate "any" published module, so that's less clearing a bar and more stepping over a stick. Also, what modules are you talking about that are written for lv13+ parties? Isn't there like exactly 1? You can't cast shield without a freehand. Yes I'm aware your weapon is your focus, however somatic components can only be performed with a hand holding focus when casting a spell with material component, which shield doesn't have. That entire middle bit that's character agnostic is both irrelevant and a bad idea. Valor bard is MAD if you want to play both battlefield control and martial. You're already choosing like 1 out of dex, cha, and concentration protection. Going into melee is doing you 0 favors on top of that. Compared to the same valor bard built just for control, your duel wield hybrid is just worse for most fights. You'll spend the first 1-3 rounds casting spells anyways, except the purpose built caster valor bard has higher dc and is less likely to drop concentration. After that the hybrid is risking a potential wipe for faster cleanup instead of being out of range and un-interactable. I don't see how that's worth.
@@randomnobody660 Err... you can cast Shield with a weapon and no free hand. Quote: "A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components-or to hold a spellcasting focus-but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components." The hand performing the somantics is the one with the focus (weapon), if you're a Valor bard, have the warcaster feat, or the ruby of the warmage. I will conceed this wont work for any spell with a non-zero material componet. You'd need that in hand still.
@@rogerexcell249 No you can't. 2 paragraphs up from your quote the rule is is very clear: "If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures". A hand holding a focus is by definition not free. Your quote is from under the "Material (M)" section of components and is only relevant for spells that require it. It is also only saying that in the case you need both, the hand performing S can also handle M, not that in all cases a hand holding focus counts as free for the purposes of S.
RE: Unbreakable Majesty, I think it's actually better because the enemy might be more tempted to try attacking you, where before they would have just attacked someone else and been more likely to hit.
I feel like it's a bit odd to give the Valor Bard a rating based on taking a 2 level multiclass for a specific cantrip and a specific invocation. I bet most players aren't going to be doing that with their Valor Bards, and it would be more realistic to use Vicious Mockery, Firebolt, or even True Strike as your example. It's still a good subclass though! I just believe it would be rated a bit lower if the multiclass stuff was treated as an option rather than the standard.
Not Green-flame blade? You get to mini-cleave. Or booming blade if you want to keep them close. Honestly I like Dancer more than Valor... I just wish the evasion was kicked in sooner. L14 is way too late.
Seeing the updated version of the Valor Bard's Level 6 feature- "Idk, this seems a bit too potent of a melee ability for a full caster," (thinking of Green Flame Blade, Booming Blade, True Strike, etc.) Me realizing where this was going with the mention of Eldritch Blast: "F***......" They really should have stuck with Eldritch Blast scaling with Warlock levels rather than character levels.
I'm not sure if this is the place to talk about homebrew. but dragon age origins has an aoe ability to bards where their buffs and debufs act in an area rather than on a target. I think with the new emination mechanic now is the perfect time to implement it. An example would be, when you cast haste, instead of selecting creatures to target. You would cast it on yourself, and you would select creatures in your emmination.
40:41 I'm assuming I'm wrong, but considering the it says "after you cast a spell..." with no uppercase and no specification of spell level... could you not Attack, replace one attack with a cast of a cantrip spell, and then get the bonus action attack? If that works, it wouldn't be game breaking, but that would make the attack action more competitve for Valor Bards. Greenflame/Booming blade or Eldrich Blast followed by two more weapon strikes sounds fun. Combine that with some extra damage riders like Holy Weapon or Fount of Moonlight? 😮
Could a valor bard 6/eldritch knight 7 replace BOTH attacks with a cantrip? Add 2 levels of warlock and 8 eldritch blast beams per turn at-will (16 with action surge!) sounds pretty dope. Dont really know until i see the wording on the new eldritch knight feature.
Yes. War Magic is a separate feature from Extra Attack and so the rules on Extra Attack features not stacking means you can replace both attacks with cantrips.
Valor bard with 3 levels of bladelock seems like a solid high level build. However similar to bladesinger I'd rather be a straight classed fullcaster. But with the new origin feats you can easily grab a blade cantrip. Seems like it'd be a pretty fun build.
@@jrcperes But the extra attack let you use a cantrip that has the casting time of an action, which is a spell no ? Battle magic doesn't say that you have to *spend* your action or a spell slot to cast that spell, just that it must have the casting time of an aciton. Or is there something i'm missing ?
@@VolpiThunder Maybe you could do this if the additional attack from Battle Magic didn't use the bonus action. You can't use the Extra Attack feature with a bonus action because this feature is activated with the Attack Action. So you can cast one spell / cantrip and attack with your bonus action once (Battle Magic); or you can cast one cantrip and still attack once with your action, and you still have your bonus action for maybe another weapon attack with your off hand weapon (Valor's Extra Attack).
Voli is correct. you can --cantrip, melee, bonus melee --leveled (non bonus), bonus melee --Melee, Melee. Also Nick still works, so you can --Cantrip, Melee (Nick), Melee, bonus Melee. (I think this requires Weapon mastery feat). Dont forget for added spice you can change one melee strike to a dragon breath as a Dragonborn.
@@rogerexcell249 That's what I said... The thing is, you can't cast a spell (or cantrip, using Battle Magic) and then cast another cantrip plus make a weapon attack (using Extra Attack). Extra Attack and Battle Magic don't stack with each other.
No... I think they're all good at diff things, my favorite is dancer: Valor is a GISH if you like spangly armour and martial weapons. You can always take warcaster and weapon mastery to do similar, but not quite as well. New bladesinger. Dancer is a monk but with full casting instead of special abilities so still tanky and hard hitting like valor, but less multi attribute dependant so better for bad attribute rolls compared to Valor. Glamour got the nerfbat though as its no longer the best social class in the game, shifting from bonuses to skills to bonuses with mind control magics which I dislike using personally. Now best for skills instead is lore bards but now at L14, but applied to all skills not just social ones. Worth remembering all the bards get decent expertise and Jack of all trades always making them better at skill use than rogues, but the warlock can also get more proficiencies than the bard for a skills monkey build, so long term can get ahead of a bard if thats the main focus of the build. Bards can get the same number of Expertise as rogues, which warlocks dont get at all, trading rogue defensive and offensive options and Weapon mastery for full casting progression.
I'm really sas that dance bard got nerfed from play tests. I feel the only thing really carrying the dance bard is the bonus to initiative. Statistically powerful but not really flavorful fun
What is frustrating is they moved evasion from L6 to L14. That's what hurts it so bad. I'd have kept evasion for self at L6 in addition to the current property, and changed L14 to add the aura effect. As it stands though its a less selfish valor bard. Its aproximately the same AC unarmoured as the Valor in medium armour with shield, it gets its 2 attacks earlier at L3 instead of L6 but its tied to bardic inspiration. HOWEVER There's 3 good things with this: One, the Valor cant use their bonus action post L14 to inspire due to it being used to make its attack but the dancer gets a free attack when its doing its notmal bardy job! Two, you can use the unarmed attack again not on your turn with your reaction. I refer to the fact it can trigger off the L6 ability when they end the turn next to you. You get to move half your distance without being attackable and punch them in the face for free, first! As a bonus you get to reposition your squishy mage friend to safety with you, or have the paladin rush in where you left from trading palces. This can make you have 3 attacks a round at L3, in exchange for an inspiration dice. A bit like a monk Flurry with more conditions. Three, there's nothing saying you must attack the target that made you move in the previous scenario. I like the idea of having Mage Slayer and walking out of melee range of the Zweihander wielding blackguard in melee without an AOO, maybe putting the blackgaurd in melee with the tanky party Paladin as they advance to take your place, walking up to the blackgaurd's evil necromancer friend hiding at the back, and free punching him in the face forcing a concentration check at disadvantage 😄
As a lover of Unarmed Combat in RPGs, I definitely see a College of Dance Bard/Something Paladin multiclass in my future. Just enough Paladin for extra attack and smite and then the rest Bard for eventual d12 unarmed strike and party support.
Skip the extra attack via paladin. At L3 you get "extra attack" with dancer when you inspire your party. This can also be leveled spell+attack and inspire, or cantrip+attack and inspire. If you want smiting and melee, skip any form of multiclass and play a Warlock pact of the blade. 3 attacks, smites, agonized green-flame blade or booming blade at early levels. Also Lifedrinker! Finally Eldritch Smites don't cost a bonus action. You can't paladin and dancer efficiently, as their extra unarmed fires off their bardic inspiration, usually a bonus action which blocks smiting. If anything I'd be Warlock with a dip of L3-4 bard dancer, just to get inspiration + extra bonus attack. You can also add your warlocks Cha to your ac. The bonus spell slots from bard will give you a way to cast Hex, or other bard based buff spells that dont upscale (heroism? Lesser restoration? Mirror Image?). Saves the warlock ones for smites. A bonus on this method is the eldritch smites from L5 warlock work on any pact weapon... which can include any bonded magical RANGED weapon. Yes you get to smite at range with a longbow if you want... Plus the pact weapon uses Cha for its attack and damage. Final argument for this method: if you use a non heavy weapon, this means you can ignore Str. No need for expensive fullplate too. Did I mention Agonized Green-flame and booming blade is a thing?~ Edit: PS I just double checked about Nick mastery... sadly wont work with a Dancer when you cast spells, only when you attack three times in melee. Should work with Valor though, if you want the spangly armour, but its not a clean MC. I feel dancer warlock is neater: You get 3 attacks with the pact weapon, possibly one Nick extra offhand, full scaling smites, cha to AC, and an extra unarmed strike as a bonus action when you inspire your party. If you instead cast a spell, you still get to punch or kick them when you inspire as early as L3 bard. If you start bard, change to warlock.. L1-2 you have 2 weapon attacks (dualwielding) L3 you have a 3rd attack unarmed from dancer and swap to warlock L4-7 start using charisma for damage and attack bonus for your main weapon if you want. It also becomes radiant, necrotic or psychic damage instead if you want with said main weapon. Oh, and you can Hex for +1d6 necrotic with your bard spell slots. L8-11 a 4th weapon attack from Thirsting blade and you start smiting at 4d8 L12-14 you add lifedrinker for +1d6 damage and optional lifesteal L15+ you finish with 5 attacks, all with +1-2d6 lifedrinking and possibly Hex. 3 from attack action, one from Nick offhand, and one unarmed for 3D6 when you inspire. Arguably, pure Valor, pure warlock, or pure dancer is a viable alternative. The first doubles down on one big spell and a single weapon strike or a cantrip and one or two weapon strikes. The second focuses on multiple hexed, draining strikes later, with an augmented agonized weapon cantrip early. The last is the less selfish, more supporty version of Valor focusing on movement, and party buffing. Plus you end up punching like a truck with a 1d12 attack. Ouchies!
Wait so Valor Bard can cast an Action cantrip in place of an attack but als so make a BA attack after casting a spell with a casting time of an action, so you could do it after taking the attack action and casting a cantrip as part of it?? It does not specify the spell needs to be level 1+.
Correct. But if you cast a leveled spell, you loose your extra attack feature, and can only bonus action a single attack. You can attack twice, spellcast and attack, or cantrip and attack twice. All use your bonus action so you cannot use bardic inspiration.
One nerf to magical secrets you didn't mention, Chris? The old version gave you additional spells known. That meant that the bard had 28 spells known by the end of their career, but now it is just 22.
They in fact did not. "The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table." --5e Bard's Magical Secrets feature
@@SeanClaudeVanQuam For Lore Bards the subclass ones are indeed extra ones, 5e one's Additional Magical Secrets being listed as extra that don't count against, 5.5's Magical Discoveries are listed as always prepared which there's a general rule (and also in each spellcasting base class's description of what a prepared spell is) that any feature that grants an always prepared spell doesn't count against the number. Only the main class's Magical Secrets one is factored into the number listed in the class chart.
The other issue with any of the unarmored defense features is that you can normally get an enhancement bonus to both armor and shields without needing to burn an attunement slot, obviously only half as much of an issue for the barbarian but unless your finding ways to buff the relevant stats your just not going to compare to someone in +2-3 halfplate.
Access to magic items is entirely champaign-dependant. You can go through the whole thing and get not even a pice of +1 armor especially since magical armor is far less necessary than magical weapons. If the DM is willing to give you enchanted armor they will also be more than likely to give characters with unarmored defense magic items that boost their AC.
... Thats a Very Rare item. Technicly a Staff of power grants +2 ac at the same rarity while also being a +2 weapon... (does need attunement though). I'd probably instead spend the money on a Tome of Leadership and influence, or a Manual of Quickness of Action. Only a +1 ac from +2 cha or +2 dex, but boosts my spells, and skills while its at it. Also not attuned. I could also use my wish spell from bard to wish for a hundred years to pass for the book but nothing else, once I place it on the floor and get another +2 from it again.. giving me +4 charisma, and increasing my base maximum to 24... 😄 Also I'd argue that you can easily craft or buy +2 robes, and bracers of Defense are only Rare, and +2 AC, with the requirement of no armour or shield. Anoyingly this requires attunement, but its miles cheaper.
Another indirect (relative) buff to Valor is that their AC boost is now better than a feat rather than equal since shield training is no longer part of Moderately Armored.
I think i'd dip cleric rather than 3 lvls in bard at that point thought unless i was going 6 bard.
I don’t think OP was suggesting it as a dip when there’s no synergy. You should dip paladin for charisma caster, btw. Cleric is old news now that multiclass half-casters round up.
@@skullkrusher-dx4kg Agreed, I was referring mostly to how Valor compares to other Bard subclasses. Other classes that are just looking for a quick way to get medium armour and shields would rather stick to Cleric or a martial like Fighter or Paladin.
Now half-casters round up on multiclass? Interesting, I gonna see in my copy that I have@@mogalixir
@@AndreAlbuquerque-uk2oi Yeah, they got swapped to Artificer style multiclassing since they moved Spellcasting down to level 1, rounding down could lead to actually losing spellslots in some rare occasions in the playtest Artificer when they were round down but Spellcasting at level 1 (If I recall the problem was Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster X/round down Artificer 1 where X is any level not divisible by 3 as their single class progression was essentially rounding up but multiclass was rounding down)
I think an overlooked but very impactful change for bard is the buff to true strike.
Bards now have a premium damage dealing cantrip at both melee and range.
Shillelagh + True Strike + Psychic Blades (Whispers Bard) is an interesting prospect
@jesseseva2219 i would look at getting musket proficiency instead of going shillelagh on a bard.
@@Razdasoldier gunner feat or starting as a Giff (Space Hippo) would work well if that's the plan
Totally!! Really good for Valor Bards of lvl 14 since it will open the possibility of a third attack using the bonus action.
@@BettoramirezI have a difficult time getting lvl 14 Battle Magic to be good. To me it's just a rapier or crossbow attack. What do you see that I am missing?
You forgot to mention something in your thumbnail:
If you take a background with Thieves Tools, you can eat the Rogue’s lunch too.
Yeah, but basically everybody can eat the Rogue's lunch.
@@hawkname1234yeah it’s still dumb that this is happening. I’d go with what the dungeon dudes said and wished their maneuvers didn’t cost all their snek att damage.
@@hawkname1234 Well, Bard can eat a larger portion of it between having any 3 skill proficiencies and the same amount of expertise eventually. Lore Bard takes even more of it with 3 extra proficiencies at level 3. So the only thing Rogue really has is reliable talent, but the Bard gets access to spells that just circumvent a lot of skill challenges anyways, with their full caster progression and eventual access to all of the best spells in the game. lol
The bloodied condition makes a huge differance for power word kill. You are allways allowed to know when someone is put below 50%, and thus you know their max hp and their current one. That spell has become a lot better due to it.
You don't necessarily know what their max hp is, as lot of combats include lot of enemies and hit points going up and down all the time which makes it really hard to keep track of exact hit points of anything.
@@Klaital1 meaning that if someone is paying very close attention to the health pool of 1 creature they can get an approximation of their max and remaining HP. You don't need to pay attention to every monster, just the one you want PWK. If you know it's bloodied, all it really takes is writing down how much damage it took
Does the DM HAVE to tell you if a creature is bloodied if you don't have an ability that relies on it?
@@apjapki I mean it is a condition that the monster has so yeah? Regardless the DN will have to describe what the monster looks like as combat progresses. Bloodied is mostly to make that easier
@@apjapki I think so, yea. But we might not know untill 24DMG is out
There is one other change to Bardic Inspiration, in that it now only can be used on failed D20 tests. Nice QoL change, but also limits it from being used on say Initiative, or on checks with degrees of success where you hit a degree of success but not the highest.
A failure on the die can be a partial success / success at a cost though (DMG 242) allowing the failed roll + BI to still have a different impact
It also can't be used on dispel/counterspell checks anymore, which is sadge.
EDIT: which treantmonk says like 20 seconds after I finished my comment.
This is totally a nerf
@@PsyrenXYwhat is sucess at a cost?
@@AndreAlbuquerque-uk2oi There's examples of it on p242 of the 5e DMG. Things like a DM might allow someone who failed the DEX save for a Fireball by 1 or 2 to count as having succeeded, but end up Prone, or maybe just barely failing the DC of a climb check might mean you make it but the tether line to the rest of the party is dangerously close to breaking.
Regarding Cutting Words, a part from not working if the creature couldn't hear you it also didn't work against creatures immune to charm, which are quite a lot at high levels. That's actually a big buff imo
It may be able to be used more consistently. But the point that treant has made, and I agree with, is that I’d rather use that inspiration on not being frightened, charmed, paralyzed, etc (which are all wisdom saves that bards aren’t usually great at). I’d consider using it if it was the difference between an ally going down and not, but that will not be the case a lot of the time. That said, it’s an option!
Aside that, another actually notable nerf is that Cutting Words now subtracts from an ability check that "succeeds." That means you can no longer Cutting Words an enemy's Initiative, since there's no success/failure state to Initiative rolls. I think it's a net gain to be able to no longer worry about Charmed immunity, but it's a bittersweet victory. Also applies to Peerless Skill, sadly. I don't think it's the premier Bard subclass anymore.
A funny thing is I listen to the Glass Cannon Network. I think it was a couple weeks back where they actually talk about you and remembering how they read your guides for Pathfinder 1E on message boards (they're now playing 2E in almost every campaign they do except their series Legacy of the Ancients, which is a Rise of the Runelords campaign). It was a pretty wholesome mention and wanted you to know they there was a pretty nostalgic callback to you on a pretty popular podcast.
Imagine the amount of control a Fey Wanderer and Glamour Bard can output at 7th level, it would be insane.
Not having to multiclass or get a feat in order to have a viable character is huge mechanically considering bards have a pretty good chassis.
Not only that but it's close to medium armor and shield WITHOU having to carry a shield. Not a problem for everyone, but tables that care about somatic casting rules it can be important to have free hands
One thing in the Lore Bard's favor is that Magical Discoveries doesn't say the 2 spells learned count against your number of prepared spells like the 2014 Additional Magic Secrets feature does, so they have 2 more spells than other Bards.
What version are you looking at? I can't see anywhere that Additonal Magical Secrets counted against spells known? As far as I know they have always been two bonus spells.
Mantle of Majesty making a charmed target auto-fail the save against Command gives you a reason to pick the charmed option from Beguiling Magic
Yeah, at worst Glamour is a temp HP dispenser. But it has the potential for crazy and consistent control now, that can also dispense temp HP. lmao
Important (though not really) correction:
The new Bard, following RAW for Magical Secrets, will max out at 19 of their 22 total prepared spells being able to be from the Cleric/Druid/Wizard spell lists. This happens if you replace one of your Bard spells from Level 1-9 at each level up (11 replaced spells from 10-20) and then select a new spell from those lists each time possible (Level 10, 11, 13, 15, 17-20).
EDIT: Of course Lore Bard will beat this number and can have up to 21 of their prepared spells from the Cleric/Druid/Wizard spell lists thanks to Magical Discoveries.
A bit confused still on replacing spells at 10th; does that mean at 10th level I can instantly replace one spell as if I had reached lvl 2-10 so 9 of the spells I already know can be from the other caster’s lists?
@@Coopernicuss Through your first 9 levels, you will have selected 14 Bard spells. At level 10, you gain a new spell. With Magical Secrets, you could select one Cleric/Druid/Wizard spell at that level AND replace one of your Bard spells. So at level 10 you could have 13 Bard spells and 2 non-Bard spells if you wish.
I really like how the power level seems relatively more equal in 2024 than in 2014. The Dance Bard isn't *great* but it's certainly not a trap option! It's usable, even!
@@goodberry4825 At minimum it has a unique and flavorful play style. If it does feel underwhelming its gonna be much easier to give minor buffs or access to items since Bard is so flexible.
dance bard is absolutely a trap what are you on lmao
@andrewmiddleton3487 Apart from the unarmed strike, all the features work and are nice. Repositioning allies and bonuses to initiative are nice. It might not be super strong, but it's LEAGUES different than 2014 "trap options".
In 2014, there were numerous subclasses like Berserker(honestly a lot more barbarian subclasses too), Purple Dragon Knight, and the Alchemist that are so bad that if a new player said they wanted to play one, you might be inclined or even feel obligated as the DM to suggest they play something else that won't absolutely suck.
If a player brought a dance bard to my table, I wouldn't feel that for even a moment. It may not be a very *strong* subclass, but the good features it does have are potent enough to succeed in aiding the whole party.
I feel like Lore Bard, more than other bards, should get an something similar to the cleric's domain spell list. Spells like comprehend languages, identify, tongues, legend lore, etc. feel much more thematic to the historian/keeper of knowledge concept that I associate with a lore bard rather than the "I'm really good at insults" vibe that cutting words gives the current Lore Bard.
9:37
I love where he feels the need to defend his favourite class here for like a minute lmao
The only thing I don't really agree with Chris about is his worship of wizards. Like sure they have a couple high level spells that are stupid op, and they don't have to prepare rituals, but that's about it.
Lots of complaints during playtest were that Bards would outshine everyone. Wizard gets Arcane Recovery, Bards get Inspiration, Wizards get great spells, but now Bards can get the same spells, so what's the point of Wizard?
@@wassentme1891 there isn't much unless you want to be the spell book of the party. The sorcerer casts spells better, the bard has access to 3 times the spells, the wizard just has the largest backpack of spells for a day. So in any given moment, he'll have more spell options available, but the sorcerer will cast his smaller selection better, and the bard will be able to select from far more. A well prepared bard will drastically outshine a wizard in most situations. The wizard will sometimes "have an app for that" and then they will shine.
I see it as clearing the air. Those who say bards are better wizards is not true. There are reasons to play wizards, as he points out, yet he praises the new magical secrets. He even ends there video saying the next class he wants to play is a bard, not wizard.
@@jordanmetcalf3383 bro he doubled down saying that bards are not nearly as good casters as a wizard lol
I think another big advantage that clerics, druids, and wizards have over bards is that they prepare their spells every day, so can customize them according to the situation, whereas bards can only switch out spells every level.
And one at a time, to boot - Magical secrets decision making just got even more intense, lol. Still a good problem to have.
yep, for a class sold on being a swiss army knife this was my biggest frustration, 5 years, lvl 16 lore bard and our war cleric has way more utility spell wise. top tip, Fly is a great party buff, the 60' movement has turned us all (upcasting) into monks for movement.
Didn't they make every class a prepared caster in 2024?
@Erufailon42 Not exactly. They call them prepared spells for every class, but some classes can change their prepared spells every day (cleric, druid, wizard), some classes can change one prepared spell each day (ranger, paladin), and some classes can only change their prepared spells at level up (bard, sorcerer, warlock). So despite calling every class's ready list of spells prepared spells, this means different things for each class. It's not the same as every class being a prepared caster according to the 3.5e/2014 5e definition.
@donaldcrankshaw1627 wow I had not caught on to that at all. I got fooled by the name and thought every spellcaster had been simplified to 2014 style prepared casters lol.
For Dance Bard their AC boost is better than described. Half plate is 15AC plus a max of 2 from Dex for 17, and then 2 from shield for 19.
So really if a feat/multi class is worth a difference of 18 AC vs. 19 AC is a lot closer than initially described.
This is exactly how he described it?
Well it also never specifics you cant use a shield (if multi classed for proficiency) with it (same as barbarian unarmored defense). And with origin feats you can pickup the shield spell at lv 1. So dance bard potentially hits some stupid high ac numbers if built for it.
@@AchmedtheHealerIt literally says you can't use a shield and he said that. Barbarian unarmoured defense is different.
@@zachswanson6643He said it was 17 base plus 2 for Dex, then 2 for shield.
You sort of glossed over the Valor Bard's 14th Level feature. They can, after using the Attack action to do one weapon attack and one cantrip casting, can do another weapon attack using a bonus action. So now the level 6 and level 14 features synergize with each other!
I suspect (and I suspect Chris suspects based on this thematic note) that Dance Bard is going to be popular outside of optimizer circles. I've heard people say quite a few times they like unarmored defense features simply because they don't like to envision their character in armor all the time.
And he kept saying if you have a good dexterity for a dance bard if you are playing a dance bard why would you not have a good dexterity it's the whole point really
Yes, and I'd hands down play it in an all martial artist/Xianxia style game. I mentioned in the monk video that I'd love to see all the styles in one player party. The classic open hand, xianxia style elemental dao, bard dancer aka house of flying daggers, Barbarian animal fighting style Wild totem, and the Brawler fighter...
Exactly this. When the Bladesinger was new I played one that had more Dex than Int and it went great. I'll do the same for Dance Bard.
I have a mechanism advantage of the dancers unarmored defense: for those those DMs that say you can’t or are penalized for sleeping in armor;)
@@jordanmetcalf3383 Plus heat metal! Cant be disarmed or killed with unblockable damage as a dancer ^.^ Much better than Valor!
Honestly, I love the dancer. I've wanted a subclass that had a flavor similar to that. I wish it got the standard caster extra attack at 6 that allowed one of the attacks to be a cantrip, but hey.
Yea... but if you look at their L3 ability, it's cast (action) and then (bonus) attack AND bardic inspire. Technicaly they get extra attack at L3, BUT it costs inspiration. Not ideal, but starting at L6 you can use your reaction movey trick to move yourself and any ally 1/2 their movement safely on an enemies turn AND punch an enemy for free during their turn. Doesnt have to be the guy in your starting space too.
Enemy blackgaurd charges you with a 2 handed sword... ouch. Well now I'm moving to your back line, punching your squishy necromancer friend for free with mageslayer feat to get a juicy concentration check... oh and my paladin friend is moving up to melee with you, Mr. Blackgaurd, just before his turn. I can see this calss being very good with Alert feat.
Another little nicety of the lore Bard's lvl 6 feature is that the swapping out of those spells is independent of the Bard's 1/lvl swap. Thus at lvl 10 you could pick 3 4th lvl non-bard spells by picking 1, swapping 1 regular spell and swapping 1 magical secrets spell.
I gots to come root for my boi the Glamour bard! Love how good my boi is doing!
Wanna start by observing a stealthy buff so sneaky that Chris even missed it despite talking about bardic known spells earlier: Glamour gets two great spells known, Mirror Image and Command (forget Charm Person) that they didn’t have before. That means that Glamour and Lore get two more spells known than any of the other bards-really good on a class with limited preparations!
I also want to take a moment to admire the wording we see across many classes where we can expend a resource to “restore use of” a feature; in this case, expending Bardic Inspiration to restore use of Beguiling Magic. This wording is extremely generous inasmuch as once we are regaining Bardic Inspiration on short rests (level 5 is just a massive power boost for us considering both level 3 Glamour features rely on Inspiration), we can expend our remaining inspiration just before resting to get Beguiling Magic back, and then we immediately get the inspiration back. Super powerful!
As Chris noted, Mantle of Majesty is a lot better than it used to be, though like I noted it also prepares Command for us which it didn’t before. Command has also been buffed inasmuch as the target doesn’t have to understand you anymore, which is huge-though now you can’t invent options for the command anymore, which is honestly probably for the best.
Finally while I won’t dispute that Unbreakable Majesty has been nerfed-with the old version you almost WANTED the enemy to make their save so they’d have disadvantage against your next spell, which was super powerful and created a weird incentive to hope the enemy rolled well-the enemy could always just target one of your friends if they failed their save. Now, whenever they fail their save, they just waste the attack. And they could waste a lot of attacks if their Charisma saves are bad.
I know everyone’s excited for the shiny new toy in Dance, and Valour’s Extra Attack shenanigans are exciting. But man, Glamour is where it’s AT, baby! We completely glossed over it in Xanathar’s Guide ‘cuz Swords was more exciting, but I’m telling y’all, Glamour is better than ever and we should not ignore it this time! Shell out those temps, burn that bardic inspiration like a ‘14 paladin burning smites, and make your enemies fall to their knees before you!
Glamour is the best subclass the in PHB not including CME abuse case.
@@brannenpfister2579 Agreed
And Command works against Undead now, right? Another buff…
@@brannenpfister2579 Ah yes CME abuse on a valor bard that has taken a warlock (obviously for agonizing eldritch blast) and evocation wizard dip, so that their cantrip always does at least half damage! It's so nuts I think I'll stick to fount of moonlight, but always hitting for at least half damage is nice though.
Glamour bard has always been one of my favorites for NPCs-- it makes a heck of a great cult leader frame with those bonus action commands. (Though I will miss Enthralling Performance; it was easy to use on an NPC with a crowd) My Big Bad in a high level one shot was a multiclass 6 Glamour/14 Fathomless Warlock trying to summon Cthulhu
This definitely makes me more interested in playing a bard up to high level. Valor seems great. Dance is well themed and I know I’ll see people playing it.
I'm sort of amazed that, after all the time optimizers spent trying to make Eldritch Blast work with the Bladesinger's extra attack feature, the designers went ahead and made it effort-free. I'll miss my puppeteer bard being the JoaT king of Telekinesis ("You are ALL my puppets!") but I think it's a reasonable restriction.
If I’m reading it right I think the level 14 valor bard feature means you will get to make another weapon attack every turn since you will be replacing one of your attacks with something like booming blade or Eldritch blast, which is a spell with a casting time of an action.
Agree
That was my thinking as soon as Treant showed the last Valor Bard ability. I won’t say it’s OP, but definitely spicy. Even more so if the Nick mastery can be worked into this. 😁
Yup. Possibly the only class other than Warlock eyeing up that Weapon mastery feat! :)
Dance bard is made for a character using the martial art Capoeira (commonly referred to as dance fighting) and use the related instrument, the berimbau
Valor Bard's Extra Attack also means Loading weapons, such as Muskets and and Heavy Crossbows, are very effective in tandem with Cantrip especially alongside a Warlock Dip for Pact of the Blade. (PotB's obtuse wording means the weapon must be magical to be bonded with ranged weapons however)
2 fun builds I've been thinking of to take Advantage of this:
- Valor 14 / Undead Warlock 6 - With Form of Dread and 6 attacks you are sure to get at least one attempt to frighten an enemy. Muskets also could add a modest D12 on top of that. By Max level you can Cast Eldritch Blast with 4 rays, a Musket Attack, and another Musket Attack as a Bonus Action. Further rounding this out is GWM for your 2 attacks for maximum punch. Lastly Eldritch Smite just in case you get a lucky critical and need more dice to explode with. With your gun as a weapon and focus you can live to the true the term Spell Sniper.
- Valor 14 / Celestial Warlock 6
This will require a favorable ruling with your DM, however you can atleast still do this build with a Longbow. Take True Strike and stack all the damage features on it. Agonizing Blast and Radiant Soul both add Charisma modifier to the attack on top of Truestrike using your Spell Casting modifier. Lastly adding Great Weapon Master for +6 by 17th level. If it counts as a cantrip then all of those effects stack, but if your DM rules it as weapon attack take a Longbow and it should still work. Your True Strike Ought to be 1d12+3d6+5+5+5+6 by 17thth and you can still make 2 attacks since you did cast a spell. Pair this with Hex, Elemental Weapon / Magical Weapon, and /or Crown of Stars and you are sending some pretty meaty hits down range.
'Replace an Attack' effects were an excellent and subtle buff people will come to appreciate as we familiarize ourselves with the system.
Doesn't pact of the blade only let you choose melee weapons as your pact weapon?
@@Klaital1 It says Summon a melee weapon or bond with a magical weapon. If your DM is more strict than HexBlade subclass should allow for it, but honestly HexBows should be allowed too. Its how my playgroups are running it.
How are you using your bonus action for an additional loading weapon attack?
@@schulterderwelt3989 loading property only prevents you from making multiple attacks as part of the same action, it doesn't stop you from attacking once with your action and once with your bonus action with the same loading weapon.
@@Klaital1 No, I mean how are you using your bonus action for the attack in the first place? Hand crossbow?
@ 32:15 it definitely makes sense to anyone who has ever been the target of a really good stink-eye...or even a crook-eye!
They can definitely be way more cutting than even the most vicious words!
Power Word Heal for free means I WON'T pick a high level healing spell with one of my precious slots. That's the resource it saves me:)
*Dance Bard* can still use *Strength* to *Grapple* as part of the Bonus Action to give *Bardic Inspiration,* leaving your Action free to cast *Cloud of Daggers (CoD).* On the first round of combat, a Grappled foe can take damage from CoD *3 times* _(without needing other PCs),_ if you're willing to burn your uses of *Bardic Inspiration:*
1) *On your turn:* When you *cast CoD* _(on your next turn, you can either _*_move_*_ CoD or _*_move_*_ the Grappled foe out of CoD and back in)._
2) *On the foe's turn:* If it doesn't *escape* your Grapple _(if it does, hope it ends its turn _*_within 5 feet of you,_*_ so you can use _*_Inspiring Movement_*_ to _*_Grapple_*_ and _*_move_*_ it back into CoD as a Reaction)._
3) *After the foe's turn ends:* If you use your *Inspiring Movement* Reaction _(to _*_move_*_ the foe out of CoD and back in)._
*Maxing out Strength* before Charisma, this strategy has two potential weaknesses:
i) Fewer uses of *Bardic Inspiration* _(so you need another use for your Bonus Action)._
ii) Lower *AC.*
*Armor of Agathys (AoA)* can turn your low *AC* into a strength. Since it lasts 1 hour, try to cast it before combat _(or on turns where you don't need your _*_Bonus Action_*_ to Grapple)._ *Upcasting CoD and AoA* lets you deal significant damage to a Grappled foe _(neither spell depends on Charisma, as they don't have saving throws)._
You can gain *AoA* by starting as a *Warlock* _(which also provides _*_Wisdom save_*_ proficiency, _*_Hex_*_ as an alternative to CoD to impose _*_disadvantage on escape checks,_*_ and _*_Eldritch Mind_*_ for maintaining Concentration)._ Alternatively, you can get *AoA* from *Mark of Warding Dwarf,* or the *Rune Shaper* origin feat _(if your table allows content from Eberron or Bigby's, respectively)._ The feat is part of the *Rune Carver* background, a perfect fit for the new *Goliath* _(using _*_Stone's Endurance_*_ to make _*_AoA_*_ last longer and _*_Large Form_*_ to increase your _*_Speed_*_ to 45)._
The *Grappler feat* is only worth considering if you start as a *Fighter* _(for _*_Unarmed Fighting_*_ style, _*_Con save_*_ proficiency, and _*_heavy armor + shield_*_ training),_ or if your DM allows your *Unarmed Strike* to use either *Dex* for its DC or *Str* for its damage _(to address _*_Dance Bard's_*_ inherent anti-synergy)._
"Just because you can access Wizard spells does not make you a Wizard."
The mistake is thinking a Bard is trying to be a Wizard. Having access to Cleric and Druid spells is an advantage Wizards don't have.
p.s. Cutting Words applies to AoE spells cast against your party, so it can prevent a lot of total damage.
It makes you better than a wizard. Litterally. You have expertise in 4 skills to the wizards 1, all their unique spells, and Bardic inspiration. Lets just also ignore their better equipment proficiencies and higher HP.
Yes, this! Is the bard a better wizard than the wizard? Of course not. But that's not what makes bards good. I super don't understand the comparison, bards are a completely different thing.
Bardic Inspiration got a small buff. Previous wording was as follows: "The creature can wait until after it rolls the d20 before deciding to use the Bardic Inspiration die, but must decide before the DM says whether the roll succeeds or fails."
Now the creature knows it failed before it tries to use the inspiration.
Dance Bard seems like the fruit of thematic multiclass theorycrafting. Those Monk + Wis caster multiclasses that took way too long to get to higher spell levels now have the built in casting potency they lacked. And with the changes to Magical Secrets they get even more options than that hybrid ever could. If anything, I do feel as if the learning curve of optimizing Inspiration uses is going to be a lot greater for this subclass than its counterparts.
Valor Bard Pact of the Blade lock is going to quite literally hit different.
I think you are underrating the lore bards magical discoveries ability. You can replace these spells with higher level spells as you level up which means you can get wall of force at level 9 and 4th level spells from other classes at level 7
You’re right, wall of force one level early is great!
I do think you overvalue rituals when comparing wizards to the other spellcasters. It’s definitely good to have an effectively larger list of “prepared” spells than other classes, but imo there aren’t enough rituals to make that gap as wide as you seem to imply, and the power you get from those rituals is also not as world-shaping as you seem to imply.
Wizard's with rituals are a non-thing. All other casters get 2-16 more spells prepared a day through their subclass mechanics. Even if you prepared all ritual spells with these extra subclass spells as non-wizards, you'd probably have more spells available than the wizard including all their rituals. Wizards are hands down the worst arcane caster class atm.
@rogerexcell249 other spellcasters only get a few good spells out of the *10 spells that are automatically prepared* from your *subclass.* Automatically prepared spells are _not equal_ to spells that you *select* from the best and largest spell list.
I find it amusing how much of this video is dedicated to shitting on Bards from a Wizard's POV.
High lvl bards shit all over wizards now. They get to pick the most broken spells from 3 spell lists yay.
All I'm hearing is "dude, a team with a wizard and a bard on it is busted" imagine like this: the wizard gets a "second wizard" that can cast the heavy hitter must have wizard spells you want someone to be concentrating on while also NOT doubling up on ritual casting (you don't NEED more then one guy on a team able to do it) and also able to aid in saving throws and attack rolls and such to protect eachother. Juicy fun. It's almost like this is a team game~
It's Treantmonk. Him dissing the Bard simply because it isn't a Wizard should be expected :)
It's not really shitting on bards being realistic about their spell list. There's a reason why so many bards are stuck upcasting Dissonant Whispers until they get Magical Secrets. The bard spell list is quite literally designed to have barely any damage spells, which you can't tell me doesn't cause problems because all your utility/control spells are concentration, meaning that once you have one up there's only one thing you can do (blasting). Having to wait until the very end of Tier 2 to get Bigby's Hand and then Magical Secrets sucks. For any prewritten module, that is basically at the very end.
I wouldn't play anything other than a Lore Bard in something like Curse of Strahd for example, where the campaign will end before you can really even get Magical Secrets. Wouldn't be fun being forced to use a bunch of spells that won't affect all the undead and the like in Barovia because they are immune to charmed and frightened. A module like Strixhaven doesn't even get that far.
@@Miggy19779They always could... And they were still below Wizard.
Long time subscriber. Just wanna say thanks. I’ve shared and am sharing many of your videos with my group of 7, 4 of whom are in their first campaign. And using them for myself of course!
I must say that since most play is t1,2 and maybe start of 3 i think that Lore should be higher, because spell are so good. As for valor/dance i would mention that now that you cannot get both medium armor and shields with a single feat value of the armor options they provide is much greater.
You skipped over the spell slot for a bardic inspiration though I don’t think that is that great a feature usually
It’s fantastic for glamour.
Solid for Lore too, Cutting Words and Peerless Skill beat a lot of 1st-level spells I'd say. I wouldn't convert any higher slots though
@@brannenpfister2579 With backwards compatibility being what it is, I don't think a whisper bard multiclass would complain either.
@@PsyrenXY Which still makes a small sorcerer dip kinda useful.
@@jugglejunkswords bard as well.
I slightly disagree with Chris downplaying the potential of cutting words with regards to the amount of ability checks that are in 2024 , specifically escaping effects like grappled or restrained. I know it’s niche… but a cutting words bard in a cheese grater party is gonna pop off
Grapple has been made into a save, and thus have a lot of monster abilities that give either condition to a player. So it wouldn't actually have an effect on that roll.
wow, 2024 Valor Bard could be awesome with some of the new versions of feats and cantrips
Slight correction: magical secrets isn’t every bard level, it’s every level you gain +1 (or more) new prepared spells. These levels are 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, & 20. At most, this will give you 16 of your 22 spells (18 of 24 if lore bard) which can be taken from other lists (assuming you always swap out a bard spell at those levels for a non bard spell, in addition to selecting a non bard spell with your new prepared spell).
A 20th level bard will have a minimum of 6 bard spells (not counting cantrips) from spell levels 1-5 (more if they choose higher level bard spells or swap out any of their cantrips).
_"In addition, whenever you replace a spell prepared for this class, you can replace it with a spell from those lists."_
If you choose to replace a Bard spell every level, you will only have 3 Bard spells remaining as a level 20 Bard.
@@SortKaffe missed that line. I stand corrected
Come on! Let’s get Treantmonk that 100K!
Goodluck on the Speedy 100k! Been with you since pathfinder. Glad you are still helping the community
I think they got rid of the creature needing to hear you in order to effect a creature with Cutting Words because Common Sign Language is now an officially supported D&D language.
Tangentially related because I don't know any form of Sign Language, but personally, I like the idea of giving the creature a middle finger as my Cutting Words even though "Words" seems to imply speaking aloud; OR maybe, a mean girls inspired character who just rolls their eyes at the creature.
So, here's my take on the dance bard: making an unarmed attack against an enemy is super niche, it's going to be very little damage at the cost of being in melee range.
However, grappling and shoving is a different matter altogether: say that an enemy ends their turn next to you and another frail character: you can use your bardic inspiration to proc inspiring movement, you get an unarmed strike and you use it on your ally to grapple them, you move away together and the barbarian uses their reaction to move in!
Even earlier, say that an enemy is very far away from the paladin, they would destroy them, but they can only move 30 ft and you're 60ft away: you cast longstrider on the paladin, inspire them and grapple them, move 15ft towards the enemy, then when the paladin is moving you shove them as an opportunity attack!
Now, this is obviously enhanced by grappler, but I don't think I'd take it. What I would take, Chris, is LIGHTLY ARMOURED! You asked who's that for, and there it is, draconic sorcerers and dance bards! They would really love to get a shield, ignoring light armour! 10+3+5+2 makes 20AC, which is very good
But Grappler is a origin feat and lightly armoured is not
Grappler is not an origin feat, I believe you are mistaking it for Tavern Brawler@@Darmblaster1
@@bouidgeand he vanished into the dark, never to respond out of shame
Dance bard should be able to use charisma for their unarmed attacks and to determine their grapple and shove dc
But you don't get CHA to AC if you use a shield
magical secrets became a real "build a bard" although paladin and ranger are gone, i like this a lot
9:42 I love how much time was spent durring Magical Secrets talking about... how much better a wizard is at casting. Weird flex, but ok, lol.
I think losing the ability to snipe paladin spells in particular is a big loss, but it was necessary. It was a little silly that level 10 Bards got the spells classes like Ranger and Paladin had to wait until Level 17 to get. Still, getting your spell list expanded to include most other casters' is huge for customization and build flexibility.
Because there's A LOT of people that not only think Bard is now objectively better, but think that the Bard didn't have access to all the spells in the first place. Many players just don't read their features apparently lol.
It's due to how much comments treantmonk gets that disagree with him about wozards being the best class still, including from other competent content creators. He is just really into fighting those opinions.
My take is that the gap in spellcasting flexibility between wizards and other full casters has shrunk and those other classes' extra features were improved enough that they pulled ahead of the wizard.
Long standing debate between wizards, bards, and sorcs about who is the best caster.
Chris has always been in the wizard's camp.
@cooperton4949 Well in 5e Wizard was just the best. Now it's a bit more competitive between the 3 though, but players saying that Bard is 100% better have been making a lot of incorrect statements on it, so I see why he feels the need to clarify things.
@@malmasterson3890 we are still in 5e, give a clarification, this will become tedious very quickly
Just wanted to pop in and let you know how much I've been enjoying your coverage of the latest core rule updates and how valuable it's been to go back and watch a lot of your early game spell tier lists, subbed and I really hope you get to 100K soon, that's amazing, keep up the good work :-).
7:57 “Whenever you reach a Bard level and the Prepared Spells number increases, you can choose new spells from …”
Levels 12, 14, and 16 are the ones without an increase to Prepared Spells!
True, though you can still replace one at those levels.
And thus I don't think you can replace all of your Bard spells you received up through 9th level (14 total) with magical secrets.
@rodneyrossow replacing 11 out of 14 spells as a 20th level Bard is more than enough. It's not like there doesn't exist 3 good Bard spells of levels 1-5.
Dipping one level in Wizard seems like it shores up a good half of the missing advantages a career wizard has over a bard.
Thanks for these reviews Chris. So far I'm most excited for Barbarian and Warlock. I've built a polearm master build with Lock,Barb, and Fighter(for fighting style).
Unbreakable Majesty. This feature gains a lot if you have a good AC, so you only have to deflect the small number of attacks that still hit. However, bards have a bad AC. It *does* help the group by absorbing (rather than redirecting) attacks.
Magical Discoveries: These two spells don't count against your number of spells prepared, so two extra spells prepared.
Love me some other classes’ lunch! Mmm mmm mmm! 😂❤
Valor Bard makes for a very self-sufficient class. High AC, full-caster, healing and great in social/skill checks
Ok, so, can I just say, Peerless skill isn't once per turn
I would never have thought of this, but I mean this does mean that it works on scorching ray, which you can get at level 6 on a lore bard, which does stack with say, fount of moonlight,
One other change to magical discoveries, you can change out the spell, meaning that at level 7, you can change the 3rd level fireball to a 4th level spell, for example, like watery sphere, or conjure fey
I'm just saying that in exchange for bards getting stuff sooner, this is very good at those lower levels, probably more so than before
I do like that the new magical secrets allows for some very wide ranging bard concepts. If you want, you can be a cleric or Druid crossover caster - idk how strong that is but it’s definitely fun IMO
Perfect timing! Just got home
Similarly perfect timing, I’m just headed in to work and need something to listen to haha
I think Bard is what it was supposed to be - the best solo Jack of All Trades class.
19:00 So a Dance Bard is basically a Monk Bard
There's been some discussion that the Dance Bard's niche, whether intended or not, is being able to use the unarmed Agile Strike to grapple a teammate using an Emanation (e.g. Spirit Guardians, etc.).
The teammate would willingly fail the save against the grapple, so no need to worry about investing in STR or DEX (with a Monk dip). Then you can do whatever else you can do on your turn, including casting your own Emanation, then drag both you and your friend into a favorable position. Think of it as grabbing your dance partner with the two of you swing dancing all over the dance floor (battlefield) while your enemies are searing in holy spirit auras.
Technicly... the L6 ability allows you to just have you and the ally within 30' move at the end of the enemy's turn if they end next to you for a reaction. There's no grapple. They just move on the enemy's turn for up to half their movement. Independant of you moving yourself. You can skip 15' towards the back line and, since you spend a bardic inspiration to move, you can free punch the enemy necromancer in the face after you move... and the ally can charge 15' into melee, or out of an AOE, or wherever they want. Even if you both run away from each other. The emenation damage occurs if a target enters the field and were not already in it during this move for most spell effects, so yes you can use your reaction to punch someone, and move yourself and an ally outside your turn. Imagine if you both had different emenations active (since the same spell effect cant affect the same target twice).
That is indeed extra damage outside of your turn.
@@rogerexcell249 Add in a third party member with an emanation and they could be the one you grapple and drag. You can use your features to move three people.
The Dance Bard feels like a trap. It lacks any features that support a melee play style.
Bardic Damage at best reduces the gap between unarmed and weapons I could already use, but doesn’t allow using Dexterity for Grappling (which might actually be useful).
Agile strikes might as well be a ribbon feature. I don’t want to be anywhere near the melee because generally the best thing I can do is maintain concentration on a control spell.
Inspiring movement is a decent oh crap button, but super situational because an enemy is almost never going to get within 5’ of me.
Likewise, the range on Leading Evasion means that it’s basically never going to benefit anyone but me.
Tandem footwork is literally the only reason to even consider this subclass.
I wish they would have either gone all in on making this a melee build or even better, leaned into the teamwork aspect and made it more like the Warlord.
2-2.5/5 and its only that high because of the group initiative bonus. Arguably the weakest subclass in the 2024 PHB.
It definitely isnt up there with a monk, but I think its better than it looks...
It gets evasion late though at L14, which at least applies evasion to adjacent allies. Thats pretty good to be fair. If you can get that far, you have an evasion aura for the party.
If you stand next to the other party casters or healer, at L6 when the enemy stops within 5' of you, you can disengage with a reaction, taking your frfiend with you drawing the caster out of melee. Since this cost an inspiration you get to Unarmed strike them for free too, giving you an attack outside of your turn.
I do feel their lack of Extra attack feature a mistake, honestly I'd have given that at L6 too, but I can display below why that was done IMO. Still it gets a full leveled spell, followed by an melee strike same as the Valor bard, but you're also getting to inspire your party unlike the Valor bard. The Valor bard misses out on the party inspiration if its uses it's attacks.
Side by side:
Level gained Dance Valor
2xattack 3+inspiration 6+inspiration
Cantrip+attack 14+Inspiration 6+inspiration
Leveled spell+attack 3+inspiration 14-no inspiration
So:
L3-5 Dance>Valor
L6-13 Valor>Dance
L14+ Dance>Valor.
BUT if you focus on attacks or leveled spells and not cantrips, the dancer stays ahead, especially given their L6 ability to get a reaction melee hit. Worth noting, you can hit AFTER you move so you can use the 1/2 movement to move out of melee with the greatsword wielder, walk up to their mage, and puch them in the face with mage slayer for example... that sounds fun!
AC 20 on dancer is highly possible (+5 dex and +5 Cha), compared to Valor's 19ac (shield+Medium). I'm ignoring magic items.
They come out about the same, it comes down to how you want to look and play. Do you want to be dressed in a fine ballgown slash jester motley while inspiring or repositioning your party, or tromp around the battlefield in a metal brestplate wielding a sword and board or a Zweihander while keeping those inspirations for your own AC?
It's also a fine dip for Sorcerors and Warlocks. Both need Dexterity anyway, and both benefit from more spell slots, the Warlock even more so.
Weakest Bard Subclass but still stronger than some other class options
I loved Song of Rest! I could quote cool song lyrics every single short rest and as long as I was a just a little bit less annoying than the value of a d6, then everyone would have no choice but to sit there & listen!
lol the demilitch scream has a very interesting interaction with new countercharm. the fail is drop to 0 hp and successful means you're frightened. technically it still lets you reroll with adv since it's "an effect that applies the charmed or frightened condition." (DM discretion of course)
Phoenix Sorc + Glamour: play a travelling faith healer with a circus tent-style base for the party. (Think 80s televangelist.) They're ostensibly your staff/security, and you travel the realm. Wronging rights, rescuing dragons from foul maidens, etc. Get Mansion, have the 'staff' do massage, vet work, whatever for villages. Get Regeneration, Mending, everythimg for the part. You'l be beloved wherever you go.
YAYYYYYY WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS ONE BOYS LETS GOOO
Unbreakable Majesty had a buff you didn't mention: In the old version, attackers who failed their saving throw could simply redirect their attack to another one of your friends. In the new version, they miss, losing the attack entirely. When dealing with enemies without multiattack, the new version is strictly better. For enemies with multiattack, it's debatable whether this is an overall nerf or buff.
Summary:
-Dance Bard is mid
-Glamour Bard is now broken
End of the summary
Valor Bard is greatly improved too. Arguably better than Swords
28:00 I don't think this feature adds concentration to comand spell itself. The state in which you can continuously casting comand is what you're concentrating on as if it was a spell. The important difference would be that if you drop the concentration before the creature you've casted it on gets its turn then the spell still takes effect.
I think most people are saying bards are better than wizards are focused on the fact that wizards hardly got any new shiny things and a lot of other classes did.
While it’s true that wizards are still probably the best casters, the bard is now the most versatile caster by far, if not the most versatile class by far. Especially valor bards, which are good at everything. I don’t think bard is the best class in the game, but I think that it’s useful in any party, even more than it was before
They are hands down the worst casters though. Wizards I mean. Bards do everything they do but with more AC, Hp and proficiencies, skill or otherwise. Sorcerers are better at all control magic, counterspelling, dispelling, damage output and have a higher spell DC, all while benefiting from longer range, longer durations or the joys of subtle magics on the side. The Warlocks are better hands down when you're both out of spells for sustained damage output usually with cantrips, but now with melee too. All the listed classes have more spells prepared than the wizard. Wizards only get one advantage. They can swap 1 spell on a nap, and 1 per long rest, but hey... the other casters had 2-14 more spells prepared to begin with so possibly already had them ready to go without this feature.
Lore wise Creation Bard is one of the strongest assets for a faction to have in the ecology of the game, along with several magic items from Tasha’s, and Blood Magic Wizards (Partnered)
There are many ways to ignore up to 1,000 GP of material components and thus amass extremely huge armies of Planar Bound and Summed Demons, Devils, Unicorns (Wild Magic) and possibly even the Tasha’s summons Celestials, Fiends, Elementals, and Fey in conjunction with mordenkainen’s Private sanctum and a ring of spell storing
The main drawback to these things is 1000 GP per 180/360 days PER minion is the material cost, but with a high level creation bard those costs are null and so 400 CR 6-9 minions per high level wizard, permanently; for free.
Turns Forgotten Realms/your setting into Warhammer Fantasy if every college of Wizards, Kingdom, or cloister Mages has a few creation bards, a Tasha’s shard, or a Blood Mage-
The magic level in Forgotten Realms was already sky high. These changes actually help explain some of the power and plentiful magic items.
Shillelagh Valor Bard with True Strike! New way to go!
As someone who's table rolls for stats and usually rolls damn well, the Dance unarmored defense almost guarantees me a 20AC and good to-hit chance. Yes, please. Shame they don't get extra attack though. Feels like striking is so minor for them.
This is pretty much where Dance Bard shines, at tables that do rolled stats. It's similar to how bladesingers could be insane with rolled stats.
Chris plays trumpet? Now we need him in a band with Pack Tactics on bagpipes and Colby on vocals.
Not sure if any songs exist with bagpipes and trumpets together but I'm sure we can come up with something
ruclips.net/video/feYx5M4M4gk/видео.html
2:28 if you want to skip to the pipes. You're welcome!
👍😜
Pedantic correction: Over the first 9 levels, you get 14 Prepared Spells. Oner 10th through 20th, you can only sub out 11 of them, so you will always have at least 3 spells from the Bard list rather than getting to replace them all. That's not a huge down side, but it is true.
I would say depending how your table plays the bars could be stronger than a wizard, with the way may table plays it definitely seems that way because we don’t really have the need for rituals very much
Im just happy that they boosted my swords bard even more with the weapon masteries and magical secrets 😊😁😁😝👍🏾
You only get weapon masteries if you take a feat or if you multiclass.
@@apjapki yes I know that. I read the fine print. Point is that you get it. And since swords bard is still the only bard with built in fighting styles, it makes it better.
Not even considering the use of “conjure minor elementals” which will break almost any campaign at higher levels, the Valor bard is amazing starting from 3rd level with crazy good scaling all the way through the game to 20th level. At 6th level you will have full spell casting, the same # of attacks as a fighter, the best skills of any class and Bardic Inspiration. By 13th-level, the Valor Bard, with dual fighting, Agonizing Blast, and any summoning spell, will be able to sustain a total of nine fully powered attacks. This includes 3 from Agonizing Blast, 3 from dual wielding, and 3 from any summon creature spell, amounting to ~100 sustained DPR. Additionally, the valor bard will have a vast array of defensive options by this point to block most damage, with access to the best spells in the game (from the 3 main lists), and the best skills of any class. If this doesn’t make the Valor Bard a 5/5, I’m not sure what else would ever get that ranking.
The attack cantrip replacement at 6th level really puts this subclass over the top, especially with the way it combines with Agonizing blast. That feature should be reserved for the Eldritch Knight, which is a half caster. Personally I can't see the point of playing anything else now. An entire party of Valor bards will blow through any module like it's a joke. I'd love to see Chris run a module, or even a single shot with 5, fully optimized, 13th level Valor Bards just as an experiment to see what happens!
...if its a campaign designed to challenge optimized parties, wouldnt you just wipe at the first encounter due to not having a paladin for saving throws?
Or wouldnt you just not survive in melee since nothing can?
Like what kind of one short are we talking here? One thats designed to challenge shepard druids and peacechrons?
@@randomnobody660 A team of five 13th-level valor bards would overwhelmingly dominate any published module or campaign without extensive DM modifications. Collectively, they would inflict over 400 damage per round, potentially defeating almost any monster in the monster manual within a round or two.
Defensively, they’re even more OP. With a full team of bards, they would all benefit from a constant d10 bardic inspiration die, effectively adding an average of +5 to any roll when it's needed. Furthermore, they would have top-tier defenses with spells like Shield, Counterspell, and Absorb Elements available at all times. This setup would allow them to counter and annihilate enemy casters while side stepping (or flying over) damage from any melee foes they might face.
Furthermore, with one human bard in the party ideally taking the musician and alert feats, the others could then opt for alert and lucky feats, maximizing out their initiatives and gaining advantage on nearly all of their critical saves. This configuration would then permit each bard to reroll a single roll via heroic inspiration if all else fails. If somehow all of that fails, each bard on the team would have the ability to negate nearly any adverse condition in the game (including death) given their full access to all 3 major spell lists.
Further optimizing this team, one or two of the bards could take 6 levels of Paladin (along with 7 levels of Valor Bard), which would be a fantastic addition for the extra +5 to all of their saves, while still maintaining the key abilities noted above.
Looking at it another way, a single Valor Bard in a mixed party would overshadow both melee damage dealers as well as casters due to their access to comprehensive spell lists, insane sustained damage, and their superior skills, coupled with their extensive buffing abilities.
@@RyanWilmot As is a single optimized caster with a bunch of champion fighters can dominate "any" published module, so that's less clearing a bar and more stepping over a stick.
Also, what modules are you talking about that are written for lv13+ parties? Isn't there like exactly 1?
You can't cast shield without a freehand. Yes I'm aware your weapon is your focus, however somatic components can only be performed with a hand holding focus when casting a spell with material component, which shield doesn't have.
That entire middle bit that's character agnostic is both irrelevant and a bad idea. Valor bard is MAD if you want to play both battlefield control and martial. You're already choosing like 1 out of dex, cha, and concentration protection. Going into melee is doing you 0 favors on top of that.
Compared to the same valor bard built just for control, your duel wield hybrid is just worse for most fights. You'll spend the first 1-3 rounds casting spells anyways, except the purpose built caster valor bard has higher dc and is less likely to drop concentration. After that the hybrid is risking a potential wipe for faster cleanup instead of being out of range and un-interactable. I don't see how that's worth.
@@randomnobody660 Err... you can cast Shield with a weapon and no free hand.
Quote: "A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell’s material components-or to hold a spellcasting focus-but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components."
The hand performing the somantics is the one with the focus (weapon), if you're a Valor bard, have the warcaster feat, or the ruby of the warmage.
I will conceed this wont work for any spell with a non-zero material componet. You'd need that in hand still.
@@rogerexcell249 No you can't.
2 paragraphs up from your quote the rule is is very clear:
"If a spell requires a somatic component, the caster must have free use of at least one hand to perform these gestures".
A hand holding a focus is by definition not free.
Your quote is from under the "Material (M)" section of components and is only relevant for spells that require it.
It is also only saying that in the case you need both, the hand performing S can also handle M, not that in all cases a hand holding focus counts as free for the purposes of S.
I pressed like. Now it is time to watch the video.
You said it. Seems bardlock will be the new meta
I CANNOT WAIT FOR CLERIC YAYYY
RE: Unbreakable Majesty, I think it's actually better because the enemy might be more tempted to try attacking you, where before they would have just attacked someone else and been more likely to hit.
I feel like it's a bit odd to give the Valor Bard a rating based on taking a 2 level multiclass for a specific cantrip and a specific invocation. I bet most players aren't going to be doing that with their Valor Bards, and it would be more realistic to use Vicious Mockery, Firebolt, or even True Strike as your example. It's still a good subclass though! I just believe it would be rated a bit lower if the multiclass stuff was treated as an option rather than the standard.
Not Green-flame blade? You get to mini-cleave. Or booming blade if you want to keep them close. Honestly I like Dancer more than Valor... I just wish the evasion was kicked in sooner. L14 is way too late.
Seeing the updated version of the Valor Bard's Level 6 feature- "Idk, this seems a bit too potent of a melee ability for a full caster," (thinking of Green Flame Blade, Booming Blade, True Strike, etc.)
Me realizing where this was going with the mention of Eldritch Blast: "F***......"
They really should have stuck with Eldritch Blast scaling with Warlock levels rather than character levels.
I'm not sure if this is the place to talk about homebrew. but dragon age origins has an aoe ability to bards where their buffs and debufs act in an area rather than on a target. I think with the new emination mechanic now is the perfect time to implement it. An example would be, when you cast haste, instead of selecting creatures to target. You would cast it on yourself, and you would select creatures in your emmination.
Gosh, finally, the cleric next. Thank god.
40:41 I'm assuming I'm wrong, but considering the it says "after you cast a spell..." with no uppercase and no specification of spell level... could you not Attack, replace one attack with a cast of a cantrip spell, and then get the bonus action attack?
If that works, it wouldn't be game breaking, but that would make the attack action more competitve for Valor Bards. Greenflame/Booming blade or Eldrich Blast followed by two more weapon strikes sounds fun. Combine that with some extra damage riders like Holy Weapon or Fount of Moonlight? 😮
That is correct, assuming the cantrip is an action to cast.. So no magic stone or shillelagh for you! Bladeward should work...
As a cleric, we aren't worried about bards
Could a valor bard 6/eldritch knight 7 replace BOTH attacks with a cantrip? Add 2 levels of warlock and 8 eldritch blast beams per turn at-will (16 with action surge!) sounds pretty dope. Dont really know until i see the wording on the new eldritch knight feature.
Yes. War Magic is a separate feature from Extra Attack and so the rules on Extra Attack features not stacking means you can replace both attacks with cantrips.
Valor bard with 3 levels of bladelock seems like a solid high level build. However similar to bladesinger I'd rather be a straight classed fullcaster. But with the new origin feats you can easily grab a blade cantrip. Seems like it'd be a pretty fun build.
I look forward to how the valor bard's 14th level feature stacks with their 6th level feature.
I think they don´t stack because you are attacking with your bonus action instead of taking the attack action.
@@jrcperes But the extra attack let you use a cantrip that has the casting time of an action, which is a spell no ? Battle magic doesn't say that you have to *spend* your action or a spell slot to cast that spell, just that it must have the casting time of an aciton. Or is there something i'm missing ?
@@VolpiThunder Maybe you could do this if the additional attack from Battle Magic didn't use the bonus action. You can't use the Extra Attack feature with a bonus action because this feature is activated with the Attack Action. So you can cast one spell / cantrip and attack with your bonus action once (Battle Magic); or you can cast one cantrip and still attack once with your action, and you still have your bonus action for maybe another weapon attack with your off hand weapon (Valor's Extra Attack).
Voli is correct. you can
--cantrip, melee, bonus melee
--leveled (non bonus), bonus melee
--Melee, Melee.
Also Nick still works, so you can
--Cantrip, Melee (Nick), Melee, bonus Melee.
(I think this requires Weapon mastery feat).
Dont forget for added spice you can change one melee strike to a dragon breath as a Dragonborn.
@@rogerexcell249 That's what I said... The thing is, you can't cast a spell (or cantrip, using Battle Magic) and then cast another cantrip plus make a weapon attack (using Extra Attack). Extra Attack and Battle Magic don't stack with each other.
I love how long a tangent you go on about how wizard is still the best class and why. WIZARD NEXT PLEASE! 11:15
So, Valor Bard is now the best subclass. That is good to know.
No... I think they're all good at diff things, my favorite is dancer:
Valor is a GISH if you like spangly armour and martial weapons. You can always take warcaster and weapon mastery to do similar, but not quite as well. New bladesinger.
Dancer is a monk but with full casting instead of special abilities so still tanky and hard hitting like valor, but less multi attribute dependant so better for bad attribute rolls compared to Valor.
Glamour got the nerfbat though as its no longer the best social class in the game, shifting from bonuses to skills to bonuses with mind control magics which I dislike using personally.
Now best for skills instead is lore bards but now at L14, but applied to all skills not just social ones.
Worth remembering all the bards get decent expertise and Jack of all trades always making them better at skill use than rogues, but the warlock can also get more proficiencies than the bard for a skills monkey build, so long term can get ahead of a bard if thats the main focus of the build. Bards can get the same number of Expertise as rogues, which warlocks dont get at all, trading rogue defensive and offensive options and Weapon mastery for full casting progression.
I'm really sas that dance bard got nerfed from play tests. I feel the only thing really carrying the dance bard is the bonus to initiative. Statistically powerful but not really flavorful fun
What is frustrating is they moved evasion from L6 to L14. That's what hurts it so bad. I'd have kept evasion for self at L6 in addition to the current property, and changed L14 to add the aura effect. As it stands though its a less selfish valor bard. Its aproximately the same AC unarmoured as the Valor in medium armour with shield, it gets its 2 attacks earlier at L3 instead of L6 but its tied to bardic inspiration. HOWEVER There's 3 good things with this:
One, the Valor cant use their bonus action post L14 to inspire due to it being used to make its attack but the dancer gets a free attack when its doing its notmal bardy job!
Two, you can use the unarmed attack again not on your turn with your reaction. I refer to the fact it can trigger off the L6 ability when they end the turn next to you. You get to move half your distance without being attackable and punch them in the face for free, first! As a bonus you get to reposition your squishy mage friend to safety with you, or have the paladin rush in where you left from trading palces. This can make you have 3 attacks a round at L3, in exchange for an inspiration dice. A bit like a monk Flurry with more conditions.
Three, there's nothing saying you must attack the target that made you move in the previous scenario. I like the idea of having Mage Slayer and walking out of melee range of the Zweihander wielding blackguard in melee without an AOO, maybe putting the blackgaurd in melee with the tanky party Paladin as they advance to take your place, walking up to the blackgaurd's evil necromancer friend hiding at the back, and free punching him in the face forcing a concentration check at disadvantage 😄
As a lover of Unarmed Combat in RPGs, I definitely see a College of Dance Bard/Something Paladin multiclass in my future. Just enough Paladin for extra attack and smite and then the rest Bard for eventual d12 unarmed strike and party support.
Skip the extra attack via paladin. At L3 you get "extra attack" with dancer when you inspire your party. This can also be leveled spell+attack and inspire, or cantrip+attack and inspire.
If you want smiting and melee, skip any form of multiclass and play a Warlock pact of the blade. 3 attacks, smites, agonized green-flame blade or booming blade at early levels. Also Lifedrinker! Finally Eldritch Smites don't cost a bonus action. You can't paladin and dancer efficiently, as their extra unarmed fires off their bardic inspiration, usually a bonus action which blocks smiting.
If anything I'd be Warlock with a dip of L3-4 bard dancer, just to get inspiration + extra bonus attack. You can also add your warlocks Cha to your ac. The bonus spell slots from bard will give you a way to cast Hex, or other bard based buff spells that dont upscale (heroism? Lesser restoration? Mirror Image?). Saves the warlock ones for smites. A bonus on this method is the eldritch smites from L5 warlock work on any pact weapon... which can include any bonded magical RANGED weapon. Yes you get to smite at range with a longbow if you want... Plus the pact weapon uses Cha for its attack and damage. Final argument for this method: if you use a non heavy weapon, this means you can ignore Str. No need for expensive fullplate too.
Did I mention Agonized Green-flame and booming blade is a thing?~
Edit: PS I just double checked about Nick mastery... sadly wont work with a Dancer when you cast spells, only when you attack three times in melee. Should work with Valor though, if you want the spangly armour, but its not a clean MC.
I feel dancer warlock is neater:
You get 3 attacks with the pact weapon, possibly one Nick extra offhand, full scaling smites, cha to AC, and an extra unarmed strike as a bonus action when you inspire your party. If you instead cast a spell, you still get to punch or kick them when you inspire as early as L3 bard.
If you start bard, change to warlock..
L1-2 you have 2 weapon attacks (dualwielding)
L3 you have a 3rd attack unarmed from dancer and swap to warlock
L4-7 start using charisma for damage and attack bonus for your main weapon if you want. It also becomes radiant, necrotic or psychic damage instead if you want with said main weapon. Oh, and you can Hex for +1d6 necrotic with your bard spell slots.
L8-11 a 4th weapon attack from Thirsting blade and you start smiting at 4d8
L12-14 you add lifedrinker for +1d6 damage and optional lifesteal
L15+ you finish with 5 attacks, all with +1-2d6 lifedrinking and possibly Hex. 3 from attack action, one from Nick offhand, and one unarmed for 3D6 when you inspire.
Arguably, pure Valor, pure warlock, or pure dancer is a viable alternative. The first doubles down on one big spell and a single weapon strike or a cantrip and one or two weapon strikes. The second focuses on multiple hexed, draining strikes later, with an augmented agonized weapon cantrip early. The last is the less selfish, more supporty version of Valor focusing on movement, and party buffing. Plus you end up punching like a truck with a 1d12 attack. Ouchies!
Wait so Valor Bard can cast an Action cantrip in place of an attack but als so make a BA attack after casting a spell with a casting time of an action, so you could do it after taking the attack action and casting a cantrip as part of it?? It does not specify the spell needs to be level 1+.
Correct. But if you cast a leveled spell, you loose your extra attack feature, and can only bonus action a single attack. You can attack twice, spellcast and attack, or cantrip and attack twice. All use your bonus action so you cannot use bardic inspiration.
@@rogerexcell249 Good to know. It does mean that the dual wielder feat is less valuable to this build than Colby estimated.
One nerf to magical secrets you didn't mention, Chris? The old version gave you additional spells known. That meant that the bard had 28 spells known by the end of their career, but now it is just 22.
They in fact did not. "The chosen spells count as bard spells for you and are included in the number in the Spells Known column of the Bard table." --5e Bard's Magical Secrets feature
@@neoman4426 , so Lore bards get screwed out of a class feature since bards only learn 1 new spell at 6th in the 2014 rules.
@@SeanClaudeVanQuam For Lore Bards the subclass ones are indeed extra ones, 5e one's Additional Magical Secrets being listed as extra that don't count against, 5.5's Magical Discoveries are listed as always prepared which there's a general rule (and also in each spellcasting base class's description of what a prepared spell is) that any feature that grants an always prepared spell doesn't count against the number. Only the main class's Magical Secrets one is factored into the number listed in the class chart.
The other issue with any of the unarmored defense features is that you can normally get an enhancement bonus to both armor and shields without needing to burn an attunement slot, obviously only half as much of an issue for the barbarian but unless your finding ways to buff the relevant stats your just not going to compare to someone in +2-3 halfplate.
Access to magic items is entirely champaign-dependant. You can go through the whole thing and get not even a pice of +1 armor especially since magical armor is far less necessary than magical weapons. If the DM is willing to give you enchanted armor they will also be more than likely to give characters with unarmored defense magic items that boost their AC.
... Thats a Very Rare item. Technicly a Staff of power grants +2 ac at the same rarity while also being a +2 weapon... (does need attunement though).
I'd probably instead spend the money on a Tome of Leadership and influence, or a Manual of Quickness of Action. Only a +1 ac from +2 cha or +2 dex, but boosts my spells, and skills while its at it. Also not attuned. I could also use my wish spell from bard to wish for a hundred years to pass for the book but nothing else, once I place it on the floor and get another +2 from it again.. giving me +4 charisma, and increasing my base maximum to 24... 😄
Also I'd argue that you can easily craft or buy +2 robes, and bracers of Defense are only Rare, and +2 AC, with the requirement of no armour or shield. Anoyingly this requires attunement, but its miles cheaper.