He’s gone.

Поделиться
HTML-код
  • Опубликовано: 23 ноя 2024

Комментарии • 1,5 тыс.

  • @BlueKattt
    @BlueKattt 3 месяца назад +499

    They tried as much as possible. Huge respect to all of the workers for trying to save him. Rest in peace John.

    • @y-i-k-s
      @y-i-k-s Месяц назад +1

      yeah

    • @TheFunnyKnight
      @TheFunnyKnight Месяц назад +1

      They named the cave after John it’s now called “John Jones Hill”

  • @TrumpetPlayer3
    @TrumpetPlayer3 3 месяца назад +4049

    Claustrophobia:📈📈📈 Anxiety:📈📈📈

    • @N-SD10X
      @N-SD10X 3 месяца назад +46

      Trypophobia:📈📈📈Fear:📈📈📈

    • @crow231
      @crow231 3 месяца назад +33

      Thanatophobia: 📈📈📈 Panic: 📈📈📈

    • @WiseMan1.9
      @WiseMan1.9 3 месяца назад +16

      Nyctophobia:📈📈📈 Fret:📈📈📈

    • @belindacarlisle5562
      @belindacarlisle5562 3 месяца назад +1

      It’s simple don’t watch

    • @TheKnightOfEnchantmentForest
      @TheKnightOfEnchantmentForest 3 месяца назад +8

      Heat: 📈📈📈 Thrist/Hunger: 📈📈📈

  • @lilgento
    @lilgento 3 месяца назад +4068

    A claustrophobic person’s worst nightmare

    • @SergioBicerra
      @SergioBicerra 3 месяца назад +36

      Thanks, im about 20 secs ok the vid, so just gonna skip it, just this one

    • @Raptor850
      @Raptor850 3 месяца назад +70

      A claustrophobic would never go in to that cave in the first place

    • @Clo_Dub
      @Clo_Dub 3 месяца назад +9

      🙋🏻‍♀️

    • @DeirdreKing111
      @DeirdreKing111 3 месяца назад +23

      Suffering from claustrophia myself, I would NEVER go any where near a cave. 😮

    • @DeirdreKing111
      @DeirdreKing111 3 месяца назад +3

      @@stejer211 Yes. 😅

  • @_AM-DED_
    @_AM-DED_ 3 месяца назад +307

    He really tried to hang on as long as he can.
    27 hours?
    Respect, man.

    • @JFCJ1223
      @JFCJ1223 3 месяца назад +2

      Fr

    • @LPFer
      @LPFer 2 месяца назад

      Pun intended?

    • @_AM-DED_
      @_AM-DED_ 2 месяца назад

      @@LPFer maybe🤭

  • @ThatBoyRashaad
    @ThatBoyRashaad 3 месяца назад +1342

    This is why I’ll never explore a cave
    Rest in Peace John ❤

    • @Boeing737-dy5veLEGOS
      @Boeing737-dy5veLEGOS 3 месяца назад +11

      Yes❤️:(

    • @Yo_Motion
      @Yo_Motion 3 месяца назад

      @@carterthechevrolet9219 they can’t get him out

    • @Riley-dh5le
      @Riley-dh5le 3 месяца назад +6

      @@carterthechevrolet9219because the cave is so small that they couldn’t get his body out

    • @sairapinon7635
      @sairapinon7635 3 месяца назад +1

      ​@@carterthechevrolet9219they tried he was to deep in

  • @Boy54-qp5pg
    @Boy54-qp5pg 3 месяца назад +2200

    It's devastating that they can't even give him a proper burial

    • @jfkpleyz9702
      @jfkpleyz9702 3 месяца назад +252

      they're not gonna risk another person's life just to give him a proper burial, the cave is now EXCLUSIVE to only him (which is something rarely done when you die btw)

    • @mahailiabrown3972
      @mahailiabrown3972 3 месяца назад +28

      Feel like they could still get him out to bury him correctly

    • @Alin22152
      @Alin22152 3 месяца назад +130

      that big ass cave is his reclusive tomb. I'd say that's a pretty cool place to be buried

    • @Romy---
      @Romy--- 3 месяца назад +64

      @@jfkpleyz9702 they weren't criticizing, they just said that it's sad that it was not possible to give him a proper burial.

    • @jfkpleyz9702
      @jfkpleyz9702 3 месяца назад +6

      @@Romy--- i misread it 💀

  • @spencercoleman4444
    @spencercoleman4444 3 месяца назад +2030

    More reason to never go spelunking.

    • @MVIVN
      @MVIVN 3 месяца назад +59

      For real, why would anyone ever voluntarily do this?

    • @Exmachin
      @Exmachin 3 месяца назад +4

      This is some scary stuff, buddy

    • @birbballs
      @birbballs 3 месяца назад +1

      This is the last thing I would ever do

    • @TheO-5
      @TheO-5 3 месяца назад +2

      @@DishonourabIe999i do that on a daily basis, lmao

    • @duplicake4054
      @duplicake4054 3 месяца назад +1

      @@DishonourabIe999 Exactly!

  • @giamar66
    @giamar66 3 месяца назад +503

    If the Empire State building can't fit into a cave, I'm not exploring it.

    • @md.moshiurrahman7648
      @md.moshiurrahman7648 3 месяца назад +13

      😹

    • @table5584
      @table5584 3 месяца назад +17

      As long as I’m able to dance to the beat to Mafumafu in the cave, I’m ok to go.

  • @danywater
    @danywater 3 месяца назад +2752

    I'm NOT going in that small cave, my claustrophobia would never 💀

    • @johanonbekend1641
      @johanonbekend1641 3 месяца назад +17

      Real

    • @someperson84
      @someperson84 3 месяца назад +4

      How do you even get claustrophobia

    • @kattenmedalt6082
      @kattenmedalt6082 3 месяца назад +8

      Me to💀

    • @etinuhunwangho
      @etinuhunwangho 3 месяца назад +2

      We are the best person to be in class. I was always kind when people needed help with a question, etc. Always thankful for a dump of the blood, W, I 2AS TRAPP3D IN A H2ILE ROOM W/ ( m ⋅

    • @Jollyjose251
      @Jollyjose251 3 месяца назад +9

      Well you can’t now it’s closed

  • @RealVenomHead
    @RealVenomHead 3 месяца назад +791

    Dying in small caves is probably one of the scariest things ever
    Edit: Thank you for all the likes

    • @HolyPelvisPresley
      @HolyPelvisPresley 3 месяца назад +3

      At least he wasn't alone

    • @Justincrock10
      @Justincrock10 3 месяца назад +1

      First thing we would wanna go on a small cave like that anyways there’s nothing to see

  • @-Booom-
    @-Booom- 3 месяца назад +1065

    This is legitimately terrifying, I am never going spelunking

  • @dayana4654
    @dayana4654 3 месяца назад +154

    Rescuers are on another level man.

  • @nixtix04
    @nixtix04 3 месяца назад +391

    I am kinda claustrophobic and I cannot FATHOM being in that position for so long. Hope his family was okay.

  • @candygamer3423
    @candygamer3423 3 месяца назад +233

    Golden rule of caving: Don't go caving

    • @kyrgyzkyrgyzov3838
      @kyrgyzkyrgyzov3838 3 месяца назад +1

      Ignore the subject SURGE PROTECTOR

    • @Exmachin
      @Exmachin 3 месяца назад

      Yup

    • @Luke-o48
      @Luke-o48 3 месяца назад

      Sad

    • @poka26ev2
      @poka26ev2 3 месяца назад

      @@kyrgyzkyrgyzov3838
      Not enough juice

  • @sharkenjantos2837
    @sharkenjantos2837 3 месяца назад +368

    Rest in Peace John... :(

  • @dcat78
    @dcat78 3 месяца назад +99

    I'd like to explore caves. I'll just avoid anything resembling a birth canal.
    Rest in power, John. Love your adventurous spirit.

    • @PaladinThizz
      @PaladinThizz 2 месяца назад +1

      Exploring caves comes with a lot of different dangers even for the big ones

  • @neila128
    @neila128 3 месяца назад +298

    Most horrific 'until' thus far 😭

  • @coreyhall9461
    @coreyhall9461 3 месяца назад +117

    That is absolutely terrifying and heartbreaking. At least there were people with him and talking to him as he passed. Just imagine how much more terrifying it would be to die like this alone with no hope. I can't even imagine being a father that close to your son and you can't help him. Let this be a reminder that the choices you make also affect your loved ones.

  • @devjah879
    @devjah879 3 месяца назад +243

    His body is still in that cave. Just decaying..

    • @BlockyTheBrickMaster
      @BlockyTheBrickMaster 3 месяца назад +32

      This makes it worser 😭

    • @CapyComputer
      @CapyComputer 3 месяца назад +27

      His body today is probably done decaying maybe…

    • @halvorson566
      @halvorson566 3 месяца назад +4

      @@BlockyTheBrickMaster how rofl that’s everyone’s fate basically that doesn’t get cremated.

    • @not_noice
      @not_noice 3 месяца назад +23

      It's been over decade, so it's safe to assume that his body either become a skeleton or mummified

    • @Sprouts1232
      @Sprouts1232 3 месяца назад +5

      @@halvorson566you make no sense

  • @ChumleeTPC
    @ChumleeTPC 3 месяца назад +40

    I can't believe he was so deep they had to leave his body there forever.
    Absolutely tragic

  • @oomiharry_
    @oomiharry_ 3 месяца назад +364

    this is why you don’t go cave exploring.

    • @sequoia3905
      @sequoia3905 3 месяца назад +14

      natural selection fr

    • @santiagomayaman9282
      @santiagomayaman9282 3 месяца назад +10

      Agreed

    • @Shiringhasemi
      @Shiringhasemi 3 месяца назад +2

      Tbh it's about what cave u go in, some could be tight, some could be big.

    • @RealFrankSwett
      @RealFrankSwett 2 месяца назад +1

      ​@@ShiringhasemiI prefer hiking.. not in the wilderness of course. But like by town away from wildlife.. that's another fear of mine.

  • @carrow2250
    @carrow2250 3 месяца назад +46

    As soon as I saw Nutty Putty cave I said nope. I’ve heard this one and it haunted me for weeks

  • @HeavensStormShadowWalker
    @HeavensStormShadowWalker 3 месяца назад +35

    This is why I consider my claustrophobia a gift, not a curse

  • @theodoretekkers
    @theodoretekkers 3 месяца назад +25

    How awful. Rest in peace John. I can't imagine the agony he went through. 😢😢

  • @The_P.O.P
    @The_P.O.P 3 месяца назад +92

    That's an absolutely horrifying way to go
    That's why im never going cave exploring

    • @Exmachin
      @Exmachin 3 месяца назад +1

      We leave adventure to documentaries… we don’t try to self endanger ourselves

  • @splashbenine
    @splashbenine 3 месяца назад +9

    I literally cried for that man, he looked really nice too

  • @elliesimon53
    @elliesimon53 3 месяца назад +25

    When archaeologists find this, they're gonna think it's wild

    • @ektion
      @ektion 3 месяца назад +1

      Given there’s a bronze plate there they won’t be puzzled though.

    • @PaladinThizz
      @PaladinThizz 2 месяца назад

      They're not gonna crawl in some small cave that has been closed off

  • @VikingerOnYT
    @VikingerOnYT 3 месяца назад +12

    Tip: don't crawl through small caves.

  • @mosesothebible380
    @mosesothebible380 3 месяца назад +127

    Well, that kills my desire to go explore caves.

    • @rednight5725
      @rednight5725 3 месяца назад +25

      Don't go !! Please have other hobbies or fun activities 😅😅

    • @MegaMonkeVr
      @MegaMonkeVr 3 месяца назад

      @@rednight5725caves are fine but it’s these tight crawl spaces that kill people

    • @itzjgamer
      @itzjgamer 3 месяца назад +1

      Erm what the sigma?

    • @ryanbradley3293
      @ryanbradley3293 3 месяца назад +2

      Most caves are quite fun and spacious. These were experienced small cave explorers.

    • @AmirZahir-xy3zd
      @AmirZahir-xy3zd 3 месяца назад +5

      @@ryanbradley3293 ur only suppose to go to caves that are huge and safe

  • @Memegod764
    @Memegod764 3 месяца назад +5

    I never really get sad from stories like these but this was something else

  • @Vanta_X
    @Vanta_X 3 месяца назад +53

    I couldn't imagine going through caves like that

  • @jakubsokol7301
    @jakubsokol7301 3 месяца назад +16

    Poor John. That sounds like such a difficult and stressful situation to be in.

  • @ADHDIYuk
    @ADHDIYuk 3 месяца назад +29

    This is why going caving will never be for me

  • @Sedef208
    @Sedef208 3 месяца назад +25

    I don’t understand why anyone would put themselves in that situation

    • @cassidypresley7154
      @cassidypresley7154 3 месяца назад

      .......it's a thrill to be one's own ego.........making yourself feel like you've accomplished something of value.......your EGO!! 😳

  • @Tsuki_Kin
    @Tsuki_Kin 3 месяца назад +37

    I wouldn’t go spelunking even if I paid 😭

    • @Shiringhasemi
      @Shiringhasemi 3 месяца назад

      Yh😭😭

    • @leeeel811
      @leeeel811 3 месяца назад +1

      I wish people paid me for caving.

    • @BlahhhOkay
      @BlahhhOkay 3 месяца назад

      The potential for big ass spiders alone is enough for me to not do it 😂

  • @TheAsherBros
    @TheAsherBros 3 месяца назад +71

    You know it’s crazy when ray doesn’t even say “shoutout to Utah”

    • @nickhipsher4993
      @nickhipsher4993 19 часов назад

      Because this is not true crime and they had a lot of help from everyone not just Utah agencies to help get him out

  • @SerialdesignationMALAK
    @SerialdesignationMALAK 3 месяца назад +11

    One thing about this that scares me the most, his body was never recovered and is still down there, forever

    • @cassidypresley7154
      @cassidypresley7154 3 месяца назад

      .........Forever, into.........Enturnity!!!❤😇

    • @cecillianhater
      @cecillianhater 3 месяца назад +1

      they could probably recover the bones now

    • @cassidypresley7154
      @cassidypresley7154 3 месяца назад

      .........into Eternity !!😳😳

    • @PaladinThizz
      @PaladinThizz 2 месяца назад +2

      @@cecillianhater I highly doubt they're gonna crawl into a small cave that probably reeks of death to attempt to recover bones

  • @Brond.
    @Brond. 3 месяца назад +15

    It’s actually crazy that he is STILL THERE

    • @tomislavbanic775
      @tomislavbanic775 3 месяца назад +1

      I can't believe that they leave him like that with all modern equipment.

    • @Automod-z7v
      @Automod-z7v 3 месяца назад +7

      ​@@tomislavbanic775 Modern equipment wont fit

  • @katparker1941
    @katparker1941 3 месяца назад +16

    I started gasping for air just by watching this.

    • @Seashelle564
      @Seashelle564 3 месяца назад +1

      It took my breath too!

  • @Fire_dragon5712
    @Fire_dragon5712 3 месяца назад +4

    I never really had claustrophobia but now I do 🥲👍
    Rest in peace John 😢❤😔

  • @cherwilkes4564
    @cherwilkes4564 Месяц назад +3

    What a horrible way to die. oh my god i'm crying so hard. My heart goes out to Johns family and friends.

  • @Voiazorul
    @Voiazorul 3 месяца назад +11

    I understand that you might like caving exploring, but exploring smth small like that?! Nahhh, thats the worst nightmare

  • @CONfusion2021
    @CONfusion2021 3 месяца назад +8

    Was almost hesitant to listen into this, it actually made me nervous.

  • @motodunnito
    @motodunnito 3 месяца назад +7

    That's the saddest UNTIL of all the sad UNTILS.

  • @stonepasta5296
    @stonepasta5296 3 месяца назад +14

    Went caving for nine months, until I was born.

    • @Firstname-xp9or
      @Firstname-xp9or 3 месяца назад +2

      Take my angry like

    • @spedmf
      @spedmf 2 месяца назад

      @@Firstname-xp9ortake my horny like

  • @SuperBloxTube
    @SuperBloxTube 3 месяца назад +18

    This sounds absolutely terrifying 😦.

  • @icaninhaleair6622
    @icaninhaleair6622 3 месяца назад +5

    Idk why but knowing that his body is still there is do scary and devastating to me

    • @ektion
      @ektion 3 месяца назад

      Think of it as a huge crypt

  • @amboi7800
    @amboi7800 3 месяца назад +6

    that “UUUNNTILL” was so devastating 😢

  • @Rebekalinker
    @Rebekalinker 5 дней назад +1

    1:56 i remeber seeing an SCP that was like a slide that teleports you into a cave and this exact pic was there

  • @MuhammadShahbaz-xl2vk
    @MuhammadShahbaz-xl2vk 3 месяца назад +3

    1:55 just imagining being there in his place is so scary

  • @adammmm58
    @adammmm58 3 месяца назад +7

    Bro invented claustrophobia

  • @thapinkhat
    @thapinkhat 3 месяца назад +8

    I think Ray should do the 127 hour case.

  • @NatureWitch
    @NatureWitch 3 месяца назад +1

    That's so awful. And sad poor guy I can't imagine going through that.

  • @badass9643
    @badass9643 3 месяца назад +16

    IF I Am not the only one anxious just by imagining John in this situation, hit the like. 😅
    👇

  • @fluffy_waves
    @fluffy_waves 3 месяца назад +5

    Rest in piece John I’m sorry you had to suffer

  • @Chaseiscookin
    @Chaseiscookin 3 месяца назад +3

    Everybody’s gangster till ray says UNTIL….

  • @JackieOdonnel
    @JackieOdonnel Месяц назад

    I couldn't even finish watching this one, and I looooove your posts. That's how anxiety-inducing this is!! Gah! Horrifying!!

  •  3 месяца назад +8

    I didn't expect you to cover caving disasters.

  • @skywriting100
    @skywriting100 2 месяца назад +1

    Your artist is amazing.

  • @Aegistab
    @Aegistab 3 месяца назад +9

    This is why I never would go into a small cave

  • @fitzml1485
    @fitzml1485 3 месяца назад

    Very informative and extremely scary. How that guy lasted as long as he did is amazing. Poor John. What a way to go!

    • @brittany6954
      @brittany6954 3 месяца назад

      His poor pregnant wife too

  • @subwaytrain1093
    @subwaytrain1093 3 месяца назад +4

    man maing I hope everything goes well and in the future nothing bad happens

  • @carlytan3202
    @carlytan3202 3 месяца назад

    Omg I LOVEEEE you videos!! Tysm for making them longer!! ❤❤❤❤

  • @jodyruben4097
    @jodyruben4097 3 месяца назад +12

    it makes me want to suggest several stories that haven't been told in this channel :
    - the man in cave (Floyd Collins)
    - ocean gate tragedy
    - junko furuta
    - the gate of death in japan
    - ed gein
    - the russian pot killer
    - Vanessa Marquez
    as everyday watcher of RWJ, I believe these stories are pretty interesting and haven't been discussed yet.

  • @herbiestacey103
    @herbiestacey103 2 месяца назад +1

    It would be way scarier if he was alone but atleast he had his friends and family talking to him.
    I feel bad for him and his family and friends

  • @Futballer-2012
    @Futballer-2012 3 месяца назад +50

    I’m addicted to your crime stories lol😂

  • @bowlerkid
    @bowlerkid 3 месяца назад

    Thank you for sharing this about this experience!!

  • @akuma6797
    @akuma6797 3 месяца назад +3

    2:15 almost passed out here😬

  • @Netti103
    @Netti103 2 месяца назад

    OMG! This is like the most horrifying scariest situation I can imagine ever being in.

  • @AboutDaWorld
    @AboutDaWorld 3 месяца назад +58

    Can't imagine the level of guilt the little brother had.

    • @greypenda
      @greypenda 3 месяца назад +10

      He didn't put him in there tho. He shouldnt feel guilty.

    • @ChazzleDazzleVideos
      @ChazzleDazzleVideos 3 месяца назад +3

      Yeah you make it seem like it was his fault... if me and my brothers decide to do something and one of us dies I don't see how we would feel guilty over something we all decided to do.

    • @AboutDaWorld
      @AboutDaWorld 3 месяца назад

      @@ChazzleDazzleVideos Yeah, but you two can cherish eachother, whilst the litttle brother is completly alone now.

    • @burningfrozenheartache
      @burningfrozenheartache 3 месяца назад

      ​@@ChazzleDazzleVideos@greypenda survivors guilt is a real phenomenon.

  • @3aboud932
    @3aboud932 22 дня назад

    Being a nurse student and watchin this . . . i swear its a nightmare i feel so sorry for him and for his family

  • @AnekoF90
    @AnekoF90 3 месяца назад +3

    Cave exploring is just plain stupidity.

  • @BeckFamilyShenanigans
    @BeckFamilyShenanigans 26 дней назад

    This was really hard to listen to, I'm so sorry for John & his family. I'm sure his lil brother is devastated 💔 😢 ❤❤

  • @luckydays6054
    @luckydays6054 3 месяца назад +5

    My Claustrophobia: "How dare you cheating on me."

  • @kryMP3
    @kryMP3 3 месяца назад

    No matter how many times I watch this I still have hope he’s going to make it

  • @Worm._.With._.Glasses
    @Worm._.With._.Glasses 3 месяца назад +3

    I think I'm gonna throw up my anxiety level is so high..

  • @ridhasari8367
    @ridhasari8367 28 дней назад

    Thank you so much, your explanation is well done. I mean, English is not my native language and your explanation is the best.

  • @PedroJansen-sd9yp
    @PedroJansen-sd9yp 3 месяца назад +10

    0:39 Hello 👋

  • @doubleddollar
    @doubleddollar 3 месяца назад +2

    Sorry but i can't finish whatch this one. Thank Bro for you Videos.

  • @mcburnski
    @mcburnski 3 месяца назад +4

    I absolutely love the artwork. Who does it?

  • @shannonwhitfield8943
    @shannonwhitfield8943 3 месяца назад +1

    That scares me WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO DO THAT!

  • @WhoIsThisIDontKnow-b5n
    @WhoIsThisIDontKnow-b5n 3 месяца назад +4

    My fav news reporter

  • @LindorSM
    @LindorSM 3 месяца назад +1

    Rest in peace John my sincere Condolences to the family 😢😢😢 this is really painfull

  • @Malin201
    @Malin201 3 месяца назад +12

    Its almost like falling deep into a cave in minecraft, somehow surviving on 1 heart and then realising you have no blocks to build up and you just wait til you starve

  • @Georgevolution009
    @Georgevolution009 2 месяца назад

    This actually wants to make me cry. Rest In Peace John. We will love you forever ❤

  • @alzhencs
    @alzhencs 3 месяца назад +10

    “I love nutty putty!”
    -Sun Tzu, Art of War

  • @olandodawkins2347
    @olandodawkins2347 3 месяца назад +2

    If it’s your time it’s your time can’t escape death 🙏🏾

  • @MrMunkky
    @MrMunkky 3 месяца назад +26

    0:11 nutty putty 💀

  • @ControllerL3-D
    @ControllerL3-D 3 месяца назад +1

    "Prepare to have nightmares"
    I have enough of them for me, myself, and I, and then some more to gift anyone I want, buuut I still want more, I NEED MORE

  • @KAHTHEOFFICIAL
    @KAHTHEOFFICIAL 3 месяца назад +6

    Ray teaching us about our bodies is something i would NEVER expect

  • @sofixmasnahxd
    @sofixmasnahxd 3 месяца назад +2

    When the dad went inside that's when I started crying 😢 risking his life for his son's

  • @chaken6187
    @chaken6187 3 месяца назад +7

    I have heard about this incident a lot of times, but still disturbing everytime i watch it

  • @DeliriousChicken247
    @DeliriousChicken247 3 месяца назад

    The Salt Lake Tribune had a fantastic article about this. I always recommend it when Nutty Putty/John Jones comes up. Should be free to read online.

  • @anthonysanchez4402
    @anthonysanchez4402 3 месяца назад +2

    4:57 I know exactly what happens but was still holding out hope 😢

  • @Thrillseeker8922
    @Thrillseeker8922 27 дней назад +1

    Caving is the biggest no-no of anything.

  • @viewer80
    @viewer80 3 месяца назад +6

    Poor John & his poor family & friends. It was an extremely unfortunate series of events 😢.

  • @TheCarelessAquarius
    @TheCarelessAquarius 3 месяца назад +1

    You know what’s better than going spelunking? Literally anything.

  • @3mPeRaToR
    @3mPeRaToR 3 месяца назад +5

    All those rescuers put in danger just because a person thinks is fun to do something risky.

  • @Junoroflmao
    @Junoroflmao 3 месяца назад +1

    You know its bad when Ray says "prepare to have nightmares" at the beginning

  • @morrius0757
    @morrius0757 3 месяца назад +5

    Spelunking is dangerous, especially if you're not experienced. This was not a cave anyone should be doing unless they're very skilled.