My great uncle literally invented speaker measurements while working in the Princeton Labs of RCA as Director of Acoustics in the 1920’s. 50 years later, in the 70’s. I have memories of him listening to my father’s Marantz tube system with Olsen LC-1A’s and smiling. You see, regardless of measurements, his final, and ultimate test, was listening. Both measurements and personal preferences in listening count in an analysis of equipment. Both can, and should, co-exist.
I think Bob here has the right answer. I am certainly no audiophile, but I love music..all sorts from Mongolian Throat singing, to Classical to Frank Zappa. If I had to buy something, I would walk into a store, advise the size of room/space. It's shape. What flooring exists. What Walls exist and their material. THEN what I hear decides what I buy. Like I said I'm no audiophile..I listen to music with a 1979 Marantz Gold Series Amplifier with a pair of Audiosphere Monitor L18 Loudspeakers. I'm sure any one of you would blow my ears away with your systems but in the end my choices would still be made from what I hear, not what is measured beyond the entertainment area qualifications that need to be met.
I never measure the cables I make, it's all done by ear, I make lots and lots of different types of cables and listen to them individually to find out what I feel is the best, I have over 20 years of experience, make hi-end cables & selling them, another great topic & video steve👍
@@mpumelelogumede6557 you should, you will be surprised, & they cost peanuts to make. I use to run a audio accessories business, I've had lot's of reviews in all the major hi fi mag's in the uk. I get lot's of doubters commenting on my channel, when I ask them, have you made a set & listened to them, there's no reply, thanks at least for commenting back👍
I have bought lots of products informed by measurements. For solid state electronics, the measurements predicted what I heard almost perfectly. For transducers, like speakers, headphones, microphones, and cartridges, the measurements didn't tell the whole story, but the correlation between measurements and my experience still met my expectations consistently. Measurements can tell you if a transducer is deeply flawed, but you still have to hear it to make a detailed impression. People who understand how to use measurements won't tell you they can predict everything. Headphones are the most difficult consumer audio category to measure, and listening impressions remain an essential part of forming a valid impression.
Transducers are the trickiest part of the chain. In speakers the tech is already out there: studio monitors, but it has to trickle down to the consumer level for economies of scale to kick in and prices to drop to reasonable levels. I can't wait. :-) Headphones are ULTRA tricky and nearly impossible to get right across the board and in all counts. That's why "headspace" fans usually own several and pick and choose depending on mood or music. There is some salvation in tech: some HPs respond very well to EQ. They are quirky out of the box, but can be saved by the graces of DSP, Roon, etc. Parametric EQ is the final element in the sound chain. Other HPs "hit the stops" (physical limitations that can't be overcome with EQ)
Measurements do matter, even though they don't tell the whole story. If, for example, you want to buy some full range speakers, then you can narrow your search down with some measurements. Frequency response and price could probably narrow your search to just a handful of models, then you can go listen.
I agree to a point, how do you know the manufacture specs are accurate? So many are bogus. This is where 3rd party objective analysis comes in. No different then when Consumer Reports reports real world gas mileage of cars that if often very different then the manufacture or EPA report.
@@johnholmes912 really? So if you see a high frequency response that is elevated or everything else you won't know that it's a bright speak? A suck out in the midrange and thus know the vocal will be recessed? See the bass roll off at 50 hz know that you'll need to sub?
@@paulgyro you are missing the point completely; you can have two sets of speakers that measure the sme in objective tests that sound very different indeed
Since Audio mastering engineers use flat neutral speakers to generate the source, it makes sense that neutral speakers are closely aligned with the source - but this is not necessarily pleasant if you disagree with the source and want to voice it to your preferences. Premise of measurements is to predict consistency of performance across all conditions not determine quality.
That's not entirely true ,I know a couple of audio engineers. They all implement their own taste in choice of speakers ! They do sit nearfield to eliminate the room as much as possible upon mixing what not. But in essence ?! They all use a wide variety of speakers ... Brands,sizes, principles all differ.
Thanks Steve. I have watched many audio reviewers over the years and subscribed to several. However, I’ve also limited (unsubscribed) my subscriptions over that time. I find the reviews that are measurement heavy and include sound clips to be the ones I’ve stopped watching. Not that, as many comments have already noted, measurements don’t have a place in the evaluative process, but that there’s no substitute for experiencing the components in your system/room. Hopefully, consumers are fortunate enough to have a dealer that allows them to demo products. At the end of days, your ears that will tell you if it’s right for you. I listen/watch to learn about what’s out there and get someone else’s opinion or take on it. Thanks for doing what you’re doing. I appreciate your “take.”
I agree 100%. I tried a couple of products completely recommended by the "pink panther" in Audio Science Review based on their measurement reviews,... and they sounded bad to me. What sounded great to me were exactly the products the "pink panther" didn't recommend based on their measurements (e.g. Klipsch speakers). Reviews are great to help generate a "short list", but doing a demo and listening to a product first hand (i.e. store, friend, family member, expo, etc.) is the best way to choose a product... because in the end... it's a personal (subjective) taste.
Steve you nailed it!!!! thanks for this video. It happened to me not so long ago. I was looking to replace my Denafrips Ares2 with the Sonnet Morpheus. I was very excited by this replacement and when I compared the two I did not found a major differences that justified the price differential ie 3k ,though on paper the Morpheus was way above the Ares2. I used the same source: Sotem switch se, sms 200 neo se both with sotm power supply and with the Eno system in between.My amp is an Auris ha2sf with 4 sylvania 12bh7a as tubes amp and a Telefunken 802s as a pre amp tube. My headphones are he ZMF VC. So you are absolutely right numbers do not mean a thing compare to our ears. I strongly believe that the source is the most important piece of a stereo equipment!!!! That is maybe why the two dacs were not so far appart as the price of the respective units. PS I ditch Roon, tidal and Qobuz to go with Apple Music lossless via airplay. ok I lost for the time being the hires but I am very satisfied wit the 24bit 48k standard sound quality of apple lossless. cheers and keep the good work
So many interesting comments! Thank you Steve for speaking your mind (as always). I also would like to thank the handful of "audio"-measuring reviewers who have helped us (all?) by providing (helpful?) useful measurements. By useful, I mean taking measurements but following them up with qualifying statements when measurable differences are not significant in the end user environment. Regardless of what a manufacturer claims, many of us are still going to measure our turntable's speed and variance once in a while.
A blend of the two techniques seems appropriate. Noting that, in your room, a speaker drops off at 70hz, when the speaker documentation shows 50hz... that's may be a valuable bit of knowledge. Knowing that the reviewer saw a bump in mid range through measuring and heard the same by listening, that's something I might want to know. These nuggets may help you in making a decision, but when it's all over, how it sounds to you, in your room, is what really matters in the end.
Pretending that objective measures aren't decisive simply allows people to be wrong! Subjective evaluations vary day to day depending on your mood, what you ate for breakfast and the weather! I know from my own experience that something I thought was great one day, a few months later I'll think, why did I like that?
I don't look at measurements, at all. I listen when I can, with the music that I love. Or listen to reviewers that I agree with, based on experiences with similar products we both own. For example, we both love Grados. So I agree with your taste in sound quality and trust your reviews. Measurements are for the eyes (mostly). Sound is for the ears. Measurements are important in developing and improving products for sure. But the only way to gauge sound quality is to listen (if you can) or listen (again) to subjective reviews that you agree with.
@@r423fplip No ears and room are ever the same but that doesn't stop one having similar taste in sound and music. If you keep on following a reviewer you constantly disagree with, given that you've owned or listened to similar products, then his findings, at least to you, are inaccurate and useless. You do not share the same tastes and preferences.
I've bought two products as a result of positive objective reviews by Amir on Audio Science Review. Both sound subjectively fantastic. I also have some vintage items that I bought because they looked great and sound great too. There's room for both approaches in my system. The only thing I ever measure personally..... Is how much fun I'm having.
Very straight and to the point. Nothing beats an in person demo or review of anything you purchase before you buy it. That's why most people test drive cars before they purchase them. That's why musicians test instruments for functionality and feel before purchase. The wisdom in your videos applies to alot more than just audio decisions.
My first comment here, hope I won't offend anyone. I have been listening Steve Guttenberg since 2019 and have enjoyed his videos and written CNET review quite a bit. I have learned a lot about where audio is today, and also where it was in the past with his review of vintage audio such as the old McIntosh tube amps or the Vanderstein tower speakers. My last stereo was a Pioneer SX-525 with Pioneer speakers circa 1976. Oh, I also had a HK AVR 40 (decent but not great). I think he is a uniquely qualified reviewer because of his background in recording music and selling gear in one of the largest markets in the US (NYC). The fact that he can listen to a jazz recording with a tube amp (Elekit) with his Cornwall IVs and be a witness that it sounds like the studio recording in which he participated in 40 years ago is not something to be disregarded. The fact that he consistently tests transports with the same Kraftwerk CD also speaks to his ability to be impartial. Now with respect to measurements I disagree with him. I cite 2 examples: Klipsch speakers and the Schiit Aegir. When manufacturers market their products they use measurements to price their products, period. Both Stereophile and ASR (you all know whom I am talking about) have measured the Klipsch speakers and found them to be less sensitive by 6-7 dB than what Klipsch claims. So the ball is on Klipsch to show how they rate their RPs speakers to come up with a number that is not just a marketing gimmick. Same goes for the Schiit Amp. The ratings from Schitt are HUGELY inflated (40 W at 4 ohms in stereo mode and 80 W in balanced monoblock mode). The discrepancies have been confirmed by ASR and Stereophile and are ALSO consistent with the pdf file that Schitt has on their site. So measurements (which Steve does show for speakers in his reviews) ARE important, no matter how you slice the argument.
You can't measure high end sound quality. But by measuring you get get hints where and why the sound quality may not be so great and how it could be improved. And you can test yourself whether you are able to reliable identify changes in the chain.
You are speaking in objective terms here. What is "high end sound quality"? It would be better for you to state that "You can't measure what I like in audio".
@@paulgyro You can measure _bad_ audio easily. But not extremely good one. The differences are too small, party subjective and not deterministic enough.
@@MichaelTCologne Frankly you can measure anything but it will be worthless if conclusions will lead to nothing or hard to evaluate? Valid is "conclusion", not the "measurement data".
You can measure everything that matters in audio and the test gear is astronomically more sensitive and precise than your ear. With that said. Some people might like a colored or distorted sound. I'm sure you and Steve has very sensitive ears and a lot of knowledge. But how do I know I like the sound you like? And will the product (like a speaker) sound the same/just as good in my home as it did in yours? No way to know.
Hi Steve it's Shane from Australia. I'm a big believer that how something sounds is more important then how it measures. While measurements should be a guide when considering new equipment demoing it in your own home if possible is most important. The influence of your room will ultimately effect the way anything will sound and whether it's right for you or not. So for me it's all about your ears.😁👍🎧
I get your point and I appreciate your opinion and your videos. I would like to see some basic measurements. e.g. speakers - impedance & efficiency, amplifiers - power output & minimum impedance. Knowing these numbers would help me know if the equipment will do what I want and work in my system.
The best answer I can give to your final query relates to a recent amp purchase. I was waffling between a pair of Amp Camp amps and a Schiit Aegir. Lots of reviewers (yourself included) like them both. I opted for the Schiit based on a measurement review that rated it very highly. I think, maybe, this helped me avoid making a purchase of an amp that would have become a paperweight. Maybe someday I'll regret that when Amp Camp amps are collectors items worth $1500. But I guess I suspect not.
I'll note that I had not had really great experiences with Schiit stuff prior to that and so I was really reluctant to pull the trigger on the Aegier. I have a headphone stack (Modi, Loki, Vali 2) and it's ok, but the Cambridge DacMagic Plus that I use at work sounds as good and is a simpler solution. The Aegir is really pretty spectacular, though. It and the KEF LS-50 is a pretty good example of synergy where measurements suggest that there shouldn't be synergy.
@@grechan the KEF LS-50 is a good example of a product that has many great reviews that there shouldn't be. I bought a pair and can honestly say what a dog of a speaker in many ways woof woof. I will say with Conrad Johnson tube gear and some very nice NOS Mullard tubes, and nearfield, they sound pretty good. They are revealing to source, I give them that.
Your subjective opinion helped me get a very good preamp. I hope you continue with your viewers systems; people can be very creative. Your rants are my favorite.
If you're talking about ASR, yes, the guys who are doing the measurements there are very competent and know what they are doing. You can check the bio of Amir, for example, he has quite a career as an engineer. Regarding the measurements themselves and their value: if your goal as an audiophile is to reproduce the sound as close as possible to the source (a CD or vinyl), then you definitely should aim for equipment that measures well. It won't solve everything for you, as there're also the room acoustics and other questions like listening distance, but that would be a minimum point from where you can start. For me personally, the reviews with measurements help quite a lot in narrowing down my choices. Starting from that, I can let my subjective feelings about the products to take a final decision.
Spot on, Steve. - Excellent observation for example to point out, that there really is no convergence in sound when highly regarded speaker manufacturers are compared!
Thanks, or any speaker manufacturers! I’m a pro side as well. It’s also silly, can’t we just listen? And by what we like? Do we really need to have objective proof that it’s “good.”
Well done Steve! 100 percent in agreement. I want my equipment designed by NASA engineers, but the ones that love MUSIC and have ears to appreciatte acoustical instruments, the hardest to reproduce.
I am with you on this one. I used to obsess over measurements. And everything changed a decade ago. Now I care a little bit about certain measurements. High Ohm headphones may signal to me, not good on a phone. High current/Low Ohm vs. Low current/High Ohm in an an amp are examples that come to mind. What I would prefer hearing from reviewers is, "Is this product very clinical, resolving, warm, has bite, substance or weight." "Is it FUN?" Those and other descriptions have way more meaning when making a choice in audio gear. Love the channel!
You might be right but you didn't counter his argument because what he is arguing is correct. Listening is more important than measurements because current measurements are just not good enough.
@@woopygoman The title asks can you measure sound quality, and the answer is yes. Decades of audio research has proven that people prefer speakers with certain measurements. Steve isn't ignorant to that knowledge. He just doesn't believe it or is lying to his viewers. Either way he failed to make a reasonable argument.
@@Cakebattered You are correct but only to a certain point. Perfect example is ultra low THD devices. They tend to sound lifeless. Not all of them but there's a trend there. I don't know what it means. Another great example of the limitations of measurements is impact or slam. How on earth do you measure that? Or how wide/tall/deep a soundstage is? Or how precise the imaging is? Or sibilance! It doesn't always show up in the frequency response graph! Metallic tweeters can sound harsh and it doesn't always show up in that graph! Or resolution? You can't measure the resolving ability of a transducer. Even components within a unit in your system like capacitors can measure the same but sound different!! Every single component in the chain has its own character. Right now all you can do is measure really basic things like different types of distortion, sensitivity/efficiency, frequency response, phase, etc... The point is it's all extremely limited. We're not there yet that's why we still have to rely on our ears. Here's a nice video where the legendary Ken Ishiwata talks a little bit about his experience with measurements vs listening. /watch?v=A2QPePifDQI And then there's the taste rabbit hole. Let's not go there lol. Anyway, Mark Fischer's comment that was pinned by Steve is great!
@@woopygoman There's a huge chasm between saying you can't measure everything and measurements don't matter. I have no problem admitting not all things can be measured. Yet, while there is no aggregate measurement for something like Soundstage and Imaging, measurements like polar response plots, which measure directivity goes pretty far, and that doesn't even take into account more complex things like Head Related Transfer Function (HRTF). You have to remember some attributes like "Impact" and "Slam" are nebulous terms that mean different things to different people. Ultimately, measurements provide a reference to compare our listening experiences to. A prospective buyer would have a much easier time finding new speakers if they focus on auditioning speakers that have a frequency response and polar response similar to speakers they are known to like. As someone who sold high end audio for over a decade, Audiophiliac style reviews are utterly useless to prospective buyers beyond entertainment value, and reassurance that they aren't the only one buying a particular product. Also Steve plays coy regarding the widespread knowledge of how terrible human audible memory is. BTW, the metal dome tweeter being bright was a widespread fallacy perpetuated by what listeners saw, not heard. Bright speakers are nearly always a crossover tuning issue vs a tweeter problem. A lack of baffle step compensation was a common culprit during the early 80s and 90s, when slimmer speakers started trending.
Measurements can tell you if a thing you haven't listened to is *likely to sound like* something you have listened to - which makes them useful points of comparison for people that don't have the ability or resources to listen to everything themselves. They can't tell you if you will *like* the sound of something, though.
A very valuable thing in this hobby is to find a reviewer whose taste matches one's own - reviewers obviously get to hear a great deal more gear than ordinary music lovers and have a good deal of experience which can save a lot of time and introduce one to products which might well have otherwise been overlooked. In 30+ years of this hobby, from budget to (second-hand!) esoteric, analogue to digital, 2 speakers and 5.1 speakers and pretty much everything in between, I have never found much correspondence (if any) between something which measures well and whether I enjoy listening to it, or connect emotionally to it. I agree completely that it's very much a matter of taste, and mine has changed over time also, which is something often overlooked, I think - I would find some of the systems I loved in my youth unlistenable now! My ultimate take is that it doesn't matter how well something measures if it doesn't involve me emotionally - that, at its core, is what music should do and by extension what a system needs to do. As an end-note, one of the best (if not the best) sounds I ever heard was running an LP-12 through an Audio Note Kits valve phono preamp into big, full-range Meridian DSP-6000 digital speakers. I preferred this to the same recordings played in pure digital through the exact same setup - to my ears it just sounded closer to real-life instruments in real spaces - more relaxed and natural. Many wouldn't agree, but again, that's taste for you!
Best Sounding White Noise On Flat Measuring Speakers =) Mix of both.. Measure to Quantify .. Listen to Qualify. ... We all use measurements to evaluate things we 'think' of buying.. Something had been measured or numbered to reflect the stats. T-shirts and shoes have, at a minimum, a size - How it will fit. Foot traffic carpets have a rating for use.. Tires have a pressure rating for optimal performance and durability. Point: .. Measurements get you to a limited point .. but of course, personal taste applies the perceived value. No one in the world can tell or answer this for another person ... It IS entirely subjective .. unless the buyers are simply Sheep / following a trend because of image* I certainly hope that people stop being tribal about this issue ..and embrace the Duality of the importance on BOTH ends of this discussion. BOTH matters of valuation are important. ... Just a matter of the Listener understanding how to use the skills in either practice.
It would be interesting to see you do a sort of "before and after" review, say, stock Magnepans versus Magnepans that have been modded by users. GR Research has "upgrade" kits for Magnepans(and many other brands) that are based on measurements but also experienced listening. I think getting your take on how the the changes affect the listening experience would make a really neat video.
Hi I am one of those people. I am a tech and my friend bought some Magnepan 1.6QR's, and bought the GR research kits. We are iffy on the tube connector/magic polyethylene wire stuff, seems to make zero practical sense or electrical sense. However, the actual crossover design, and crossover parts are high quality and do exactly as advertised. Danny's design was intended to flatten out the magnepan, and it did exactly that. We finished one speaker first and did AB comparisons with a balance control moving from left (unmodded) to right. The differences were so obvious we didnt even bother to do any hyper critical tests. I know this comment was intended for Steve but I hope anyone here finds this useful. No, Danny is not selling 'coolaid' in his kits, anyone suggesting so has never tried his kits, ever.
Measurements matters to those are is search of I call it “perfection”. What matters is how your audio system sound to you. Smalls tweaks in your speaker position is more important than the specs of the speaker. Isolating your turntable ,an upgrade in your cartridge will open up the sound of your audio system. It’s all about how things sound to your ears.
From my experience selling HiFi, the customers constantly changing out gear in search of perfection were overwhelmingly subjectivists, who either didn't understand measurements or didn't believe in them.
There are some measurements that are important so that you know that two pieces of equipment will work together (will this amp drive my headphones). Most distortion measurements tell you little about sound. Coming from a live sound background there are many measurement that are important to make sure there is enough headroom at the volume you need and check the speaker/room interaction. Sometimes measurements are important sometimes they are not.
I fully agree with you Steve. Spec sheets give no full indication of a system's sound quality. A reasonably priced one can sound great when properly set up in a specific room. And yes it's always in our ears. Everyone has his taste on what a great music should sound like.
Really enjoyed this, I liked the part about digital audio and measurements, it still has to be converted back to analog and then you have the different dac's to input their own flavor. No such thing as perfect, just perfect for me.
I have eventually gotten rid of most of the equipment I’ve bought in the last few years that measured “the best” because it just didn’t move me. I had a pair of studio monitors for a short while but dumped them because I realized that I didn’t appreciate neutral, flat response speakers. Can’t begin to count all of the Topping stuff that I had that didn’t hang around long. I’d say ASR trashed half of the equipment I currently own, and you drive yourself nuts going down the headphone rabbit hole, frequency response and soundstage-wise. Always always always comes back to how things sound to you in your environment.
@Homer Jones Bingo. My favorite example is the Gran Prix motorcycle riders evaluating a range of bikes. Yes, the Japanese bikes seriously excelled in all specs. When asked which bike they wanted to go ride, they answered - to a man - the Ducati, thanks. Full disclosure: I’m running a LM210IA 8 W/channel SET 300B driving a pair of Klipsch Heresy III i.e. full specification disasters… 😊 Enjoy the music.
I loved Consumer Reports reviews of HiFi equipment decades ago. Their objective measurements were a good start. Of course, they didn’t review items as expensive as we see on this channel. When listening to dynamic Classical music, to my ear, digital is far better than analog. For all the usual reasons. Dynamic range, accuracy, S/N ratio, etc. “Most” solid state amplifiers, not counting power output, have very similar objective measurements. So I choose those based on power output, features, convenience and subjective reviewer evaluations. Yes, subjective reviews are fun and useful. As long as people realize they’re subjective. But I shall always believe that, in and of themselves, they are not sufficient to make a wise choice. The best way, of course, is to hear the components in a showroom with music one is familiar with. Or, even better, in one’s own listening room. Unfortunately, that can be impractical sometimes.
Many attributes of sound can be measured, and help to build crossovers and such, but I suspect sound is more complex than the sum of the measurements we know about. To my knowledge, we don’t have a way to measure transparency, sound stage, warmth or many of the other adjectives used by reviewers to describe sound.
Agree with "imaging" and "soundstage". There are recordings of footsteps. People have started to estimate soundstage in number and location of footsteps heard. I've heard "this x covers 8 steps, this other covers 12". It's just a matter of time. "Dark" or "warm" are bass or lower mid leaning. Transparency is basically very low noise floor and accurate depiction of detail. When I switched our gear from tube to solid state my father used the terms "this is transparent, clear" (He loved music but was not involved with the jargon and gear) There are no units of measure, at least not directly. But it is not radically subjective. Focus groups can reach consensus on a gradient of these concepts.
As someone who Has DIYed quite a few loudspeakers I can tell you that objective measurements can absolutely tell you how a speaker will sound. It just takes much more than on axis response and distortion to get that, and even some companies don’t have those resourses. The reason we can use these measurements is because they have been backed up by subjective blind AB listening tests as to what most people prefer. The problem is that not everyone is looking for that reference sound. Some people like the sound brighter/darker, more/less bass, better imaging/larger soundstange, and like you mentioned, high/low spl. The engineers must choose what their listeners would want and put that together at the lowest price for their company. Subjective reviews themselves are a form of measurement, and IMO if a reviewer blankly states that the speaker is good or bad, they aren’t a good reviewer. People should listen to what their reasons for the speaker sound good are more than anything. If those match with their own tastes then there is a good chance they’ll like it. Overall, as someone who uses objective data more than listening tests, sometimes I do think some of what reviewers say is hooplah and placebo, but obviously I still watch and enjoy your videos, and that’s because I get something out of them. You mentioned a specific listening distance being optimal for certain speakers and I have an opinion on it. I don’t think that there is one certain distance say 8 or 9ft where the speaker is best, but their are certainly better ways of listening for example near field or far field in terms of voicing. Also, some towers can have drivers become out of phase if you listen too close. You mentioned Andrew jones so I’ll use elac as an example. Their speakers are usually voiced slightly down at the top and that could be done because people tend to listen to his speakers in small apartments in a midfield/nearfield range. This means that the room won’t be doing that much and the reflections won’t be boosting the lows and mids which would in turn make a flat speaker sound more balanced. So that is an instance where you would want to listen at a close distance because if you listen far away then the sound might be muffled by lack of highs. Just a guess! Great video Steve!
This is a very timely question for me. I am having the XOs in in my 1988 Tannoy FSMs rebuilt from scratch as we speak. They had what I felt was very pleasant sound. I hauled them to Texas to have the work done. They were extensively measured and a flat response was not to be found anywhere. The quality of the components in the XOs was quite low as well. So when they are rebuilt I expect, after a long burn in, to hear the angels voices. I will let you know.
The sound image, respectively the sound is appreciated in several ways....or cataloged. In general, the audience... people, as we know, aspects of human physiology are involved here. Each person being unique, has different hearing. Bearing in mind that the appreciations of various people, be they instrumentalists, audiophiles... etc., are subjective and depend on the state of health, rest, stress factors and a number of factors at the time of the audition.... I mention that technology and devices , we do not mention them here. A pertinent analysis is to use high analysis technology, spectrum analyzer, professional or laboratory microphones where applicable, special anti-noise chamber, measuring... the dynamics, the frequency spectrum and the linearity of the signal... music, sine signal... And so on This analysis is truly objective! After that, the data acquired in this way scientifically must be added to several opinions and analyzes after the auditions, people involved expressing their opinions on some well-chosen criteria in the form of nominal audition tables with questions and comments on the sound material heard in the tests. And after this, all the nominal audition tables and the collected scientific data should be collected and combined all together. And to make an arithmetic and percentage average for these data. The result being a combination between human hearing and scientific equipment. I consider this result very close to the truth, with small margins of error. If we open the discussion about the equipment... we never end the discussion due to the immense diversity of devices available to the audio amateur public. And YES it is possible to measure the sound quality, but only under special conditions and with appropriate devices! Never at home in amateur mode! Best wishes Diplomat Engineer George .
What I never understand is why reviews talk or write about certain headphones only sound better after eq than in stock format, as if the company themselves don’t have ears……
Great observations, Steve. My main concern is when a reviewer subjectively recommends using an amplifier rated for 8 ohms with a 4-ohm speaker. I've experienced this myself!
1. I don't necessarily think it's a matter of quality, but measurements are necessary in reviews in my opinion to reliably convey information. If you want to know how a speaker sounds, look at the frequency response graphs. Flowery audiophile language is not helpful and is subjective. In my opinion, a review that is 100% subjective and offers no measurements or data is a form of entertainment and is not useful information to make a buying decision on. 2. If you buy a speaker based on a subjective opinion, then you are buying that reviewer's taste in speakers. If you are presented measurements, you know how the speaker sounds and if it matches your tastes and can make an informed decision.
I’m big on headphone systems. I started out with mid level equipment based on reviews that spoke to great measurements. While the components were good, they didn’t make my headphones sound amazing. As I progressed in my journey I found subjective reviews that gave opinions from knowledgeable people who had similar taste aligned best for me. They’re recommendations helped me find gear that sounded great and gave me chills while the other gear sounded thin or way too bright and I couldn’t listen to it beyond moderate volume levels.
Steve’s subjectivity is the main reason I listen to him. In today’s “no store near me” world, where actually hearing gear is next to impossible, the opinions of our reviewing pals is very helpful. Having said that, I find sound demos to be useless, but a reviewer comparing products and exploring different combos of amp and speakers, etc, to be VERY helpful. If I wasn’t old, fat and lazy I’d do RUclips reviews and do nothing but compare gear.
I'm thankful that I discovered Crutchfield. You probably won't pay the lowest price for the gear, but the 60 day auditions and being able to return for just a $10 shipping fee has turned out to be priceless over the years. I know this sounds like an ad for them, but over the years, I have found you never really know what you are getting with audio equipment until you get the equipment in YOUR room and listen to it using YOUR equipment.
While I have been doing measurements since the late 1960s, and I am a strong believer in having standards for measurements, be they ANSI, ISO, or AES, I feel strongly the subjective review done by an " expert" based on his or her experience, is of equal value. I am most happy when I see a good review backed up by competent measurements. I am less interested in the product than when I see either review type conducted in the absence of the other. Case in point, the Denon integrated amplifier, Klipsch stand-mount speakers, and Audio-Technica phono cartridge that I purchased were made known to me by reviewers such as Steve and by other reviewers who not only echoed Steve but also provided measurement data. When I read a review of an amplifier, I expect to learn that it sounds better with some speakers than others. When I see measurements for the same amplifier, I also expect to see how it performs into a standard load and for a range of loudspeakers (failing that, a comment should be made about optimum speaker types). The same applies to every audio component. There are few universals in audio because sound is so damn complex. Acoustics is the oldest branch of physics, which is the oldest science, yet it is the least understood.
Hello Steve, that’s exactly what happened to me. I had for a long time been enjoying My Atoll DAC100SE which to me sounded very good. Then come along people with test equipment and said it measures like crap and should be avoided. So I went out and purchased a Topping D70 which measure super good, super good SINAD, etc, but in the end I enjoyed my little Atoll better. Another example is my Sugden DAC4 which sounds gloriously good but measure like shit. I take the middle road between measurements and actual listening experience when it comes to choosing products. Take care, Brian
We should first know what to trust. That what we hear or that what we know about what we hear. That is why I love my tube amp made in 1963 which has no tech data but with full range speakers bits my second which is solid and has top tech data in band, power THD but is also unique so I use them mixed. . A friend of mine purchased few years ago new speaker columns and he paid 3x more than each of two other he was using untill . And he is still using them but with nice change - after a month he said "at least inside new columns I have speakers of better class".
It all started with a fool named Julian Hirsch in the early 1960’s. When I was 22 I went to hear him give a lecture about his dogma that if two amplifiers measure the exactly the same (I may be oversimplifying) that they will sound exactly the same. I left that lecture scratching my head and laughing at the same time. Today, we have all these technical conspiracy theorists that are trying to beat us over their head and put us down because many of us to be subjective listeners and enjoy the music! You have your finger on the pulse of the audio world Steve. Your thinking process is getting better and better as choosing really great topics.
I think you are right on target Steve. Measurements help the designer to dial in certain aspects of the design. For example the designer may be trying to select the optimum bias or topology for a particular amplification stage and so may measure things such as noise or harmonic distortion profile and interpret the results appropriately. For example if you have a balanced amplification stage HD2 can help zero in on balance between the phases. That does not however mean that amplifiers having the lowest overall HD2 sound the best or the most accurate. In a phono amp for you might select an operating point for the first stage that has somewhat higher distortion of some type or another in order to minimize noise in the early stages where in a line amp the other approach may be more appropriate. At least post Junior High I have always held that as long as specifications aren't absurdly bad they have almost no correlation to sound quality and will often even show an inverse relationship.
Thank you for posting this, Steve, I think you make a lot of great points here. Nothing in the musical creation process is perfect or follows the principles of "measurement". The musicians aren't creating the music they make to "measure well", they are creating it because it makes them happy and they hope it will make their listeners happy, too. It's full of flaws and imperfections, just like them. When the engineers mix that music, it goes through a thousand different equalizers, compressors, delay and reverb units of varying quality all pushed through miles of cable while they are trying to battle noise and phasing issues and the like. A good engineer tries to stay reasonably within the principles of physics as they can but like the musician, they are also trying to make an emotional impact with the listener in their creative choices for what gear to use and how to use it. Nothing about their process at the end of the day comes down to measurement, either. Given all of this, why would end listeners be so concerned with how a speaker measures? If a speaker makes their favorite music sound good to their ear, nothing else matters. In the world of music production, the saying goes "if it sounds good, it is good". If it's good enough for the people who actually make the music, I don't think the listeners of that music have any place to cry "measurements or death!" in the face of that.
Steve, ... 𝙎𝙚𝙖𝙣 𝙊𝙡𝙞𝙫𝙚, as his Kung-fu is good. Of the individuals being compelling interviews on this topic, the top of such a list would include Sean Olive. His body of work is indeed represents some good Kung-fu.
I agree with you, Steve. Once a measured parameter is better than a certain minimum figure, say s/n better than 65db for a tape deck, to pick a random example from history, it ceases to matter very much. However, I'm sure I remember, in Paul Miller's technical section of subjective reviews in Hi-Fi News, he used to state a measurement , e.g., clock jitter, and then add a comment on how and why that specifically affected the character of the sound the reviewer had heard. I consider that helpful, in the context of a proper audition of the item, but then still not essential, as the audition alone would be.
'I thought this would make sound more real' I'm a bass player. I've been playing a long time. I've always wondered what people mean by that, 'make it sound more real'. More real than what? In what kind of room? Because a small intimate venue doesn't sound anything like an arena. The sound you hear out front doesn't sound anything like on stage. The sound someone hears standing 20 feet from the front of house mains is going to be something very different from the guy in the rafters of an arena. I've played rooms that sounded like crap. I've played some decent sounding rooms. Never did I think my bass sounded as good as it did on a recording. Bass is hard to tame live. I would say 90% of the live shows I've seen over my life time the bass was poor, ill defined. There's a few exceptions, and those were usually in smaller rooms.
I've learned that every element of our audiophilia can really be a hobby (or a business) unto itself, and I definitely have too many hobbies!! (e.g. records - a hobby. Turntables - a hobby. Speaker and amp building, in my case, hobbies. etc...). That said, I rely on measurements of a few items to help me avoid getting immersed in another hobby. For me, those elements are cables and passive preamps, from which I want the least amount of "flavor" or "interference" as possible. Gene DellaSala at Audioholics has shared a lot of useful cable testing (and opinion) that helps me eliminate "cabling" as a hobby - reliable terminations, measurements that support the idea that the system components are the elements really impacting what I hear, and not the power, interconnect, and speaker cabling. (BJC for me, for what it's worth, and in several cases, just bare Belden 10ga speaker wire). Great discussion, Steve, thanks!
Can't we all coexist? I recently tested some headphones and I did subjective listening tests and made some notes. Then I looked up some third party measurements and they absolutely confirmed what I was hearing. So why not both? I think it's fair to take any singular measurement or opinion with a grain of salt. The only way to get any kind of consensus is with multiple opinions.
When I was first starting out, I was shopping for headphones based on Frequency Response numbers and graphs alone because I had nothing else to go on. However, after owning quite a few cans over the years, I've come to realize that I don't value much of anything from these measurements, because the qualities that impress me in audio equipment can't be quantified by them. Does a new piece of gear make notoriously dense tracks actually coherent? Does it make tracks I'm tired of sound like an all new discovery? Does it work across all of the diverse genres I dabble in? How does it handle precise positioning in space for music, movies, or games? I recently bought the LS50 Metas for my desk (Maybe my setup will be featured in the Audiophiliac Daily Show someday ) and after demoing and purchasing them, I only checked the Frequency Response as an afterthought. I'm still sitting here stunned at the incredible stereo separation and how utterly astounding the width of it is. That's not something I've ever seen represented in charts or figures, and it makes for some of the most detailed sound I've ever heard. Do they measure the best? Heck if I know, but they slam a smile to my face whenever I play anything on them and the value of that alone is worth more to me than all of the objective measurements on earth.
I am not sure if anyone posted this, but there is a Measurement that you mention a lot, and that is Speaker Sensitivity. I am most likely not going to be looking at any set of speakers with a sensitivity of say
yes but what if the mfr lies about their sensitivity not mentioning names here but another commenter did on one that is rated like 96dB but maybe 89 dB in reality?
Steve: great aside in this episode about cd vs vinyl. After about 25 years I finally listened to my local audio store denizens and went back to vinyl. I’m much happier and listen far more than before. One of the guys at the audio store said I was not an audiophile but a “music lover”. Could you do an episode differentiating between “audiophile” and “music lover”. Thanks! Jason.
Thank you Jason, anybody who can listen to music without multitasking (at least some of the time) is an audiophile. It’s not the equipment it’s you, so for me the line is blurry. It’s just the way I see it.
I had a 1980's Kenwood monster receiver the Super Eleven that had excellent specs , In 85 I got Ohm Walsh 2 speakers but they did not sound nearly as good as they did at Tech Hi-Fi so I blamed bad room acoustics , In 1990 I got a used Carver MXR 130 receiver whose specs weren't as good as the Kenwood but it made my speakers come alive and sound like they did at the store , with tighter more accurate bass , wider and deeper sound stage and I heard fine detail that I never knew was on the record or CD. So good specs do not always mean good sound.
You are doing it right Steve, I think the best around. And I triple thank you for introducing us to Herb, poet, painter, word weaver. Like many, I wish I could hang out with y'all down at the diner!
I've been reading reviews on Audio equipment for over 50 years and only used the information I understood. Since I was not trained or even interested in designing a speaker most of the info I wanted was Wattage (low & high), Ohms, and very little else. In a way, I've learned more through your INTERVIEWS about how things work in the Audio world. I appreciate that, but what I discovered had little to do with GRAPHS or NUMBERS. The Engineers and Designers' are more like Artist than I previously thought designing in ways to make how we hear the Sound Resemble a Concert Stage. As a result of that Imagined Concert Stage is liked by some a Great Venue, and some designs sound like Cave filled with echos. etc.
The critical question is: can you hear the measurement? Say TDH below 0.1% is in audible, so it does not matter whether it is 0.1 or 0.001. The difference is inaudible. However, say amp damping factor of ~1 (tube amps) or >100 (typical for SS) has an audible effect of what comes out of speaker with uneven impedence over frequency range (two resistor voltage splitter) and that is clearly audible as tonal coloration. Currently looking at buying an amp, and I am throwing out of consideration any amp with DF >100, then I am looking for subjective reviews. I love AudioScienceReview, as it goes to the question of audibility of measurements. Interesting viewer system, similar to mine: Single driver speaker (PearlAcoustics Sibelius SG), VPI TT (SPS w/ADS) with SoundSmith Cartridge (Zephyr MIMC*), Marantz CD player.
Measurements are tools, but we can’t value sound quality only by measured specs. Steve is very “friendly” to guys who care only for audio specs, but not much for audio. On the Audio Science Review(ASR), owner and moderators are not that nice. They insult everybody who don’t agree withe their “Meassurment religion” . So…. Thumbs up for Steve 👍.
Impedance matters so you can better match an amp. Frequency response, maybe but only if there are anomalies in the curve. The room will change everything. The best measurement is: Does your system make you happy? Do you tap your foot or bob your head or, even better, get up and dance. Also, can you listen for hours and still find the sound pleasing? One of the most respected and established audio magazines does measurements, but places more emphasis on the reviewers subjective opinion to determine if a product is good sounding. I like that methodology.
I agree with you, Steve. Measurements can help guide you to possibly a piece of equipment that a music lover might want to audition. In that way, measurements can be helpful. But, if at the end of the day, if the equipment doesn't help bring the music to life in a way that moves you, then all of the "good measurements" don't mean a thing.
Then I wouldn't spend any time at the objectivist forums like Audio Science Review. If I were you. Because I've never seen a less tolerant group of people in my life. And I'll be happy to give links to countless examples of them treating others with a different point of view then theirs like crap when I get home from work later on to prove it too. In case you doubt me. At least the snobs at the Audiogon Forums just ignore you. They go full on group attack mode there at ASR. And won't even give a millimeter in their beliefs. AT ALL!
@@JosephTongret Me either. What I don't get is there's people there that swear all amps, and DACs sound the same to them. That's not what I hear at all, however, I'm open to the idea that these people really can't hear a difference. For whatever reason. But when you tell them you can hear a difference. It's psychoacoustics, or some other nonsense. And there's no way you can hear a difference. I always thought of that place like it was a cult. There's the cult leader, who like most cult leaders, is clueless. And doesn't even really know how to measure properly. And there's his followers that believe everything they're told by him. And just like a cult. The leader will defend himself, and his cult passionately. And never let a slight go by. In fact I'll bet he shows up here to defend himself. And the best part of all is that they're called the Audio SCIENCE Review, but no one there seems to actually follow the scientific method itself, which is the basis of all real science. Nor are they open to the idea that the science could be fallible. Whereas real scientists are not only open to the idea, but they're constantly checking to be sure they're correct in their assumptions. And in their results. To be absolutely positive their science is correct. Science my arse! It's a cult, and that's all. 🤦🏻♂️ Have a good night. ✌️
I use subjective reviewers for where I hear about stuff and entertainment, and then when there's something I wanna buy I double check with the objective crowd. If both groups like it then I'll generally buy it
The Cardas shirt is pretty sweet. You know Mr. Steve, I agree with you, some years ago I wouldn't but now I wholeheartedly agree with you dear sir. Best regards and lets all enjoy the music.
Measurements. Well, I don’t understand many measurements. Like you said, it’s so important to the designers. But, in the end, for me, it’s how it sounds to me. How the music makes me feel. It’s all subjective. I think you are dead on. Don’t dwell on the measurements. Don’t dwell on the specs. Oh well. Good morning Steve.
I have done a lot of room measurements and speaker equalisation to get flat as possible room frequency response. However flat response curve does not guarantee good sound quality. It's just good base for it. There is A LOT more to the sound what you can't measure. I have learned it the hard way.
Buying gear when Music was delivered in an analog-only time required a grasp of measurements. Hiss of tape being reduced, lower wow & flutter, the faithful reproduction of bass through a phono preamp - all of those measurements had a directly observable impact on the sound I heard. Now in the digital realm, a good deal of the supposed differences revealed by measurements do not correlate to my assessment and opinion of the sound quality. So the last frontier where a measurement might help me is for speakers, and yet that’s where measuring reliably is most fraught, and where measuring sound quality has the least capability. This all leaves me grateful, not distressed. When one’s definition of “garbage” equipment is a car 8-track player, not much in today’s audio gear descends that low. We never before had it so good.
I bought the Elac B6.2 because they were supposed to have a flatter frequency response than the original B6, which is true, but I ended up tweaking the EQ on my amp to add a few decibels more bass and treble so I guess I like a slight u-shaped EQ curve. Go figure. Still great speakers though, very clean and punchy for the money.
The "disco smile" if not overdone may please a lot of people, particularly at moderate listening levels. But I like a flat measuring speaker and to retouch FR myself occasionally. Sometimes it improves things, sometimes not. I don't like it "baked into" the speaker. Totally agree with you regarding the Elac 6.2. Liked them, incredible at their pricepoint. Now they will go to my budding audiophile grandaughter's system. :-)
Topping D90SE is now the best measuring dac according to audio science reviews. Is it the best sounding? I seriously doubt it. However, you'll save a lot of money buying the topping which is reasonably priced.
Some guy buy cheap Topping dac because Amir sad they measure well, but dac sound so bad so he returned it. Amir dont listening dacs or other electronics in his “reviews”, he listen speakers only in mono, what a joke… He is retired Microsoft guy , who try to be a “audio guru” without enough knowledge 👎
Thanks for your explanation and thoughts, Steve. For me. As in many things...it depends. For most electronics I rely heavily on measurements, since I believe that there is no reason today that they should not measure well. If there is an issue, it indicates to me that the designer is prioritizing something other than accuracy, and that does not match my objectives. For speakers it is more complex, as they interact with the room. I do believe that with modern "spinorama" measurements the designers are starting to converge on frequency response and directivity targets that are able to predict the speakers ability to reproduce "realistic" sound....but we are not there yet. In this case, I weigh the objective reviews, subjective reviews, and auditions. That is my approach and it has worked for me so far.
Your reviews are helpful as part of the research process. I usually balance it out with other reviews, measured and subjective. In the end, it is about the implementation of the project and it sounds on my system. The short answer: Yes, your reviews are helpful. 👍
What people might be wanting is better hearing, as it loses sensitivity to different frequencies as we get older. Audio enthusiasts may try to compensate for that loss/change, through using different gear in different ways, on their audio journey. So what sounded good and measured very well in our 20's and 30's, doesn't necessarily sound the same in our 50's and 60's etc.
This made me think about another passion of mine - Automobiles. One can measure the daylights out of million dollar plus super cars and then numbers for a $68K Corvette. Often very close or even better, the low priced, high performance Vette’s numbers will usually be frowned upon by purists simply because of the caché of a super car. And honestly, a low cost car, like a low cost sound system, will still get you there.
A great video. Measurements are base notions. It’s a spec of the product. But the measurements do not provide acoustic impressions like sound stage, imaging, etc. you are in this hobby to enjoy music according to your own taste.
Hi Steve, I totally agree with you. Although measurements give you an idea of what to expect, they do not tell the whole story, Also, everyone has their own preference of what they think great audio should sound like. In my view, hearing the air around a vocal or instrument seems to have the illusion of real life as if you were in the room. For me, my Magnepan’s do that and they give me the illusion of being in the same room during the recording. It is a pretty cool feeling!
I agree with your argument that we don't play tones through our system. I understand where you're coming from. The thing is, the measurements done on audio equipments are (most of the time) captures VERY LITTLE data about the said equipment parameters, and woth that said, the readers will mostly either does not understand fully what the measurements mean, nor what to do with the data. The sinple analogy I can come up with is like taking a picture of an elephant from the front, overlooking it's head. The picture does not capture the size of it's body, the length of it's body, the weight, etc. There are many aspects that needs to be measured, and how to interpret the measurement data is also VERY IMPORTANT. Without the knowledge and understanding of the data according to the specific circumstances when the data taken, you cannot simply take the data and use it as a reference for your own use. Audio equipment measurements are COMPLICATED and REQUIRES HIGH DEGREE of knowledge before you can interpret and use the data. But is it moot to read the incomplete data? To some users, no. At least some parameters are known, using the elephant's analogy, at least I know how tall the elephant is compared to a typical human male (for example...), How wide it is, and the texture of it's skin. Is it enough? Absolutely not. But does it paint SOME picture about the elephant? Yes. At least if you want to own one, you know how tall it is 😁. If only there's a standard of what to measure, and how to interpret the measurement data. That will help users in deciding the purchase more clearly.
Maybe they measured the bass frequency response using former top of the line MIT Ultralinear MH speaker cable. Every bookshelf speaker I tried it with had near 30 hertz lower bass than with any other speaker cable I tried it with. Which brings up the discussion of just how much bass we lose via different quality and types of speaker cable. Everything used in an evaluation is relative. According to the reviewer it sounds like they were nowhere close to 35 Hz though. With the MIT cable, my bookshelf speakers no longer needed a subwoofer. An amazing cable in every way, but was dark sounding. With a bright system I'd nominate the cable as the best audio piece of all time in my experience. Probably should've kept it, but a more neutral less dark cable was like a breath of fresh air. I do still miss some of its qualities though. Synergy is everything. I once looked inside a KLH bookshelf speaker to see what kind of crossover it had. The crossover had no circuit board & only one component; a resistor. How good a crossover a particular subwoofer has, is a major concern. I generally think subs improve the sound overall but you could lose a little purity and transparency with some of them. Choose wisely.
You got something right-a consumer who looked at both a subjective and an objective review may end up with a recommendation he/she doesn’t like. But, where you have grossly misrepresented the objective side of things is that the objective people will tell you, “hey, according to research, this is what most people tend to like, but your result may vary.” They will not be telling you, “hey, based on my measurement, you are going to all like this.” Quite literally, no one says that. The fact that there is no accounting for taste is well known to objective side of things. I really encourage you to give the HiFi Summit video chat amongst Joe, Erin and Amir a look.
@thatguy I see where the issue may be. Sure, if two DACs cost the same, and one has a near perfect set of measurement, and one has a “broken” set of measurement, then there will certainly be a recommendation for the former over the latter. However, it should be pointed out that recommendation by Amir is always going based on the assumption that the hypothetical you want a in = out type of DAC. If you will sit through the video I referenced above, Amir himself will explain that. Now, you cant hold the words of the forum members to “ASR” though, as anybody with an account could voice their opinion. Just as you won’t use my comments to equate to Steve’s.
Measurements are huge in the headphone community and the funny part is different people’s measurements of the same headphone are different so they argue about who measures better.
I am still a novice in this hobby, but I have learned a lot in the past couple of years watching this channel and several others. I wouldn’t buy a piece of gear based on measurements alone but some measurements are helpful in deciding. Speaker sensitivity, low end frequency response and the like. Let’s be honest….. do you shop for a car based on many measurements? Maybe a few. MPG rating, horsepower maybe even wheelbase. I doubt, however you consider wheel alignment measurements, camshaft lobe angels or at what temperature the thermostat opens and closes. Those may be important to the engineers but probably not to the average consumer who just needs to get to and from work. You ultimately have to sit in it and drive it. Much like speakers, you must listen. Those with more critical ears than mine can tell differences in amps, pre amps etc. Some measurements there may be helpful too but ultimately it’s what it SOUNDS like that’s important right? That’s why we buy this stuff !!
I agree with you Steve! I sold audio back in the late 80's. I never got hung up on specs and measurements. Some of my customers did, and I always asked them, do you listen to music or do you listen to measurements on a piece of paper? I have never bought anything myself based on measurements either. I look at measurements but I have to hear how it sounds to make a determination. If it sounds natural and musical to me, I could care less about it's measurements. Some of the worst gear I ever heard had great measurements on paper.
My great uncle literally invented speaker measurements while working in the Princeton Labs of RCA as Director of Acoustics in the 1920’s. 50 years later, in the 70’s. I have memories of him listening to my father’s Marantz tube system with Olsen LC-1A’s and smiling. You see, regardless of measurements, his final, and ultimate test, was listening.
Both measurements and personal preferences in listening count in an analysis of equipment. Both can, and should, co-exist.
I think Bob here has the right answer. I am certainly no audiophile, but I love music..all sorts from Mongolian Throat singing, to Classical to Frank Zappa. If I had to buy something, I would walk into a store, advise the size of room/space. It's shape. What flooring exists. What Walls exist and their material. THEN what I hear decides what I buy. Like I said I'm no audiophile..I listen to music with a 1979 Marantz Gold Series Amplifier with a pair of Audiosphere Monitor L18 Loudspeakers. I'm sure any one of you would blow my ears away with your systems but in the end my choices would still be made from what I hear, not what is measured beyond the entertainment area qualifications that need to be met.
I never measure the cables I make, it's all done by ear, I make lots and lots of different types of cables and listen to them individually to find out what I feel is the best, I have over 20 years of experience, make hi-end cables & selling them, another great topic & video steve👍
Did you say you make "high end cables"?😮😦 In Winerland, you'd be breaking the law, I hope you don't live there. Stay safe! 🤣🤣🤣
@@mpumelelogumede6557 well have you tried one of my designs?
@@tweakerman Not yet, my friend.☺
@@mpumelelogumede6557 you should, you will be surprised, & they cost peanuts to make. I use to run a audio accessories business, I've had lot's of reviews in all the major hi fi mag's in the uk. I get lot's of doubters commenting on my channel, when I ask them, have you made a set & listened to them, there's no reply, thanks at least for commenting back👍
@@tweakerman Cool!😃
I have bought lots of products informed by measurements. For solid state electronics, the measurements predicted what I heard almost perfectly. For transducers, like speakers, headphones, microphones, and cartridges, the measurements didn't tell the whole story, but the correlation between measurements and my experience still met my expectations consistently. Measurements can tell you if a transducer is deeply flawed, but you still have to hear it to make a detailed impression. People who understand how to use measurements won't tell you they can predict everything. Headphones are the most difficult consumer audio category to measure, and listening impressions remain an essential part of forming a valid impression.
Transducers are the trickiest part of the chain.
In speakers the tech is already out there: studio monitors, but it has to trickle down to the consumer level for economies of scale to kick in and prices to drop to reasonable levels. I can't wait. :-)
Headphones are ULTRA tricky and nearly impossible to get right across the board and in all counts. That's why "headspace" fans usually own several and pick and choose depending on mood or music.
There is some salvation in tech: some HPs respond very well to EQ. They are quirky out of the box, but can be saved by the graces of DSP, Roon, etc. Parametric EQ is the final element in the sound chain.
Other HPs "hit the stops" (physical limitations that can't be overcome with EQ)
I strongly believe you need BOTH measurements and listening assessments.
Measurements do matter, even though they don't tell the whole story. If, for example, you want to buy some full range speakers, then you can narrow your search down with some measurements. Frequency response and price could probably narrow your search to just a handful of models, then you can go listen.
I agree to a point, how do you know the manufacture specs are accurate? So many are bogus. This is where 3rd party objective analysis comes in. No different then when Consumer Reports reports real world gas mileage of cars that if often very different then the manufacture or EPA report.
it won't tell you how they sound
@@johnholmes912 really? So if you see a high frequency response that is elevated or everything else you won't know that it's a bright speak? A suck out in the midrange and thus know the vocal will be recessed? See the bass roll off at 50 hz know that you'll need to sub?
@thatguy Agreed, that's why full transparency of testing methods is needed. Good objective testing should have repeatable results.
@@paulgyro you are missing the point completely; you can have two sets of speakers that measure the sme in objective tests that sound very different indeed
Since Audio mastering engineers use flat neutral speakers to generate the source, it makes sense that neutral speakers are closely aligned with the source - but this is not necessarily pleasant if you disagree with the source and want to voice it to your preferences. Premise of measurements is to predict consistency of performance across all conditions not determine quality.
That's not entirely true ,I know a couple of audio engineers. They all implement their own taste in choice of speakers ! They do sit nearfield to eliminate the room as much as possible upon mixing what not. But in essence ?! They all use a wide variety of speakers ... Brands,sizes, principles all differ.
Thanks Steve. I have watched many audio reviewers over the years and subscribed to several. However, I’ve also limited (unsubscribed) my subscriptions over that time. I find the reviews that are measurement heavy and include sound clips to be the ones I’ve stopped watching. Not that, as many comments have already noted, measurements don’t have a place in the evaluative process, but that there’s no substitute for experiencing the components in your system/room. Hopefully, consumers are fortunate enough to have a dealer that allows them to demo products. At the end of days, your ears that will tell you if it’s right for you. I listen/watch to learn about what’s out there and get someone else’s opinion or take on it. Thanks for doing what you’re doing. I appreciate your “take.”
I agree 100%. I tried a couple of products completely recommended by the "pink panther" in Audio Science Review based on their measurement reviews,... and they sounded bad to me. What sounded great to me were exactly the products the "pink panther" didn't recommend based on their measurements (e.g. Klipsch speakers). Reviews are great to help generate a "short list", but doing a demo and listening to a product first hand (i.e. store, friend, family member, expo, etc.) is the best way to choose a product... because in the end... it's a personal (subjective) taste.
Exactly!
Steve you nailed it!!!! thanks for this video. It happened to me not so long ago. I was looking to replace my Denafrips Ares2 with the Sonnet Morpheus. I was very excited by this replacement and when I compared the two I did not found a major differences that justified the price differential ie 3k ,though on paper the Morpheus was way above the Ares2. I used the same source: Sotem switch se, sms 200 neo se both with sotm power supply and with the Eno system in between.My amp is an Auris ha2sf with 4 sylvania 12bh7a as tubes amp and a Telefunken 802s as a pre amp tube. My headphones are he ZMF VC. So you are absolutely right numbers do not mean a thing compare to our ears.
I strongly believe that the source is the most important piece of a stereo equipment!!!! That is maybe why the two dacs were not so far appart as the price of the respective units.
PS I ditch Roon, tidal and Qobuz to go with Apple Music lossless via airplay. ok I lost for the time being the hires but I am very satisfied wit the 24bit 48k standard sound quality of apple lossless.
cheers and keep the good work
So many interesting comments! Thank you Steve for speaking your mind (as always). I also would like to thank the handful of "audio"-measuring reviewers who have helped us (all?) by providing (helpful?) useful measurements. By useful, I mean taking measurements but following them up with qualifying statements when measurable differences are not significant in the end user environment. Regardless of what a manufacturer claims, many of us are still going to measure our turntable's speed and variance once in a while.
A blend of the two techniques seems appropriate. Noting that, in your room, a speaker drops off at 70hz, when the speaker documentation shows 50hz... that's may be a valuable bit of knowledge. Knowing that the reviewer saw a bump in mid range through measuring and heard the same by listening, that's something I might want to know. These nuggets may help you in making a decision, but when it's all over, how it sounds to you, in your room, is what really matters in the end.
Pretending that objective measures aren't decisive simply allows people to be wrong! Subjective evaluations vary day to day depending on your mood, what you ate for breakfast and the weather! I know from my own experience that something I thought was great one day, a few months later I'll think, why did I like that?
LOL! I once thought that either my gear or my hearing was going bad, and it was just a mild cold. :-)
I don't look at measurements, at all. I listen when I can, with the music that I love. Or listen to reviewers that I agree with, based on experiences with similar products we both own. For example, we both love Grados. So I agree with your taste in sound quality and trust your reviews. Measurements are for the eyes (mostly). Sound is for the ears. Measurements are important in developing and improving products for sure. But the only way to gauge sound quality is to listen (if you can) or listen (again) to subjective reviews that you agree with.
Are your ears and room the same as his ?
@@r423fplip No ears and room are ever the same but that doesn't stop one having similar taste in sound and music. If you keep on following a reviewer you constantly disagree with, given that you've owned or listened to similar products, then his findings, at least to you, are inaccurate and useless. You do not share the same tastes and preferences.
A thousand times: Yes! I cannot stress how badly this needed to be said. Thank you.
Happy to help!
I've bought two products as a result of positive objective reviews by Amir on Audio Science Review. Both sound subjectively fantastic. I also have some vintage items that I bought because they looked great and sound great too. There's room for both approaches in my system. The only thing I ever measure personally..... Is how much fun I'm having.
Very straight and to the point. Nothing beats an in person demo or review of anything you purchase before you buy it. That's why most people test drive cars before they purchase them. That's why musicians test instruments for functionality and feel before purchase. The wisdom in your videos applies to alot more than just audio decisions.
My first comment here, hope I won't offend anyone. I have been listening Steve Guttenberg since 2019 and have enjoyed his videos and written CNET review quite a bit. I have learned a lot about where audio is today, and also where it was in the past with his review of vintage audio such as the old McIntosh tube amps or the Vanderstein tower speakers. My last stereo was a Pioneer SX-525 with Pioneer speakers circa 1976. Oh, I also had a HK AVR 40 (decent but not great). I think he is a uniquely qualified reviewer because of his background in recording music and selling gear in one of the largest markets in the US (NYC). The fact that he can listen to a jazz recording with a tube amp (Elekit) with his Cornwall IVs and be a witness that it sounds like the studio recording in which he participated in 40 years ago is not something to be disregarded. The fact that he consistently tests transports with the same Kraftwerk CD also speaks to his ability to be impartial.
Now with respect to measurements I disagree with him. I cite 2 examples: Klipsch speakers and the Schiit Aegir. When manufacturers market their products they use measurements to price their products, period. Both Stereophile and ASR (you all know whom I am talking about) have measured the Klipsch speakers and found them to be less sensitive by 6-7 dB than what Klipsch claims. So the ball is on Klipsch to show how they rate their RPs speakers to come up with a number that is not just a marketing gimmick. Same goes for the Schiit Amp. The ratings from Schitt are HUGELY inflated (40 W at 4 ohms in stereo mode and 80 W in balanced monoblock mode). The discrepancies have been confirmed by ASR and Stereophile and are ALSO consistent with the pdf file that Schitt has on their site. So measurements (which Steve does show for speakers in his reviews) ARE important, no matter how you slice the argument.
You can't measure high end sound quality. But by measuring you get get hints where and why the sound quality may not be so great and how it could be improved. And you can test yourself whether you are able to reliable identify changes in the chain.
You are speaking in objective terms here. What is "high end sound quality"? It would be better for you to state that "You can't measure what I like in audio".
@@paulgyro You can measure _bad_ audio easily. But not extremely good one. The differences are too small, party subjective and not deterministic enough.
@@MichaelTCologne Frankly you can measure anything but it will be worthless if conclusions will lead to nothing or hard to evaluate? Valid is "conclusion", not the "measurement data".
You can measure everything that matters in audio and the test gear is astronomically more sensitive and precise than your ear. With that said. Some people might like a colored or distorted sound. I'm sure you and Steve has very sensitive ears and a lot of knowledge. But how do I know I like the sound you like? And will the product (like a speaker) sound the same/just as good in my home as it did in yours? No way to know.
Hi Steve it's Shane from Australia. I'm a big believer that how something sounds is more important then how it measures. While measurements should be a guide when considering new equipment demoing it in your own home if possible is most important. The influence of your room will ultimately effect the way anything will sound and whether it's right for you or not. So for me it's all about your ears.😁👍🎧
"Sound is not a personal preference, we just think it is." -- Dr. Sean Olive
Man this is Sooo true .. took me 2 years to learn this. If an amp is hot and a speaker is hot .. bad. This is where the art is
I get your point and I appreciate your opinion and your videos.
I would like to see some basic measurements. e.g. speakers - impedance & efficiency, amplifiers - power output & minimum impedance. Knowing these numbers would help me know if the equipment will do what I want and work in my system.
The best answer I can give to your final query relates to a recent amp purchase. I was waffling between a pair of Amp Camp amps and a Schiit Aegir. Lots of reviewers (yourself included) like them both. I opted for the Schiit based on a measurement review that rated it very highly. I think, maybe, this helped me avoid making a purchase of an amp that would have become a paperweight. Maybe someday I'll regret that when Amp Camp amps are collectors items worth $1500. But I guess I suspect not.
I'll note that I had not had really great experiences with Schiit stuff prior to that and so I was really reluctant to pull the trigger on the Aegier. I have a headphone stack (Modi, Loki, Vali 2) and it's ok, but the Cambridge DacMagic Plus that I use at work sounds as good and is a simpler solution. The Aegir is really pretty spectacular, though. It and the KEF LS-50 is a pretty good example of synergy where measurements suggest that there shouldn't be synergy.
@@grechan the KEF LS-50 is a good example of a product that has many great reviews that there shouldn't be. I bought a pair and can honestly say what a dog of a speaker in many ways woof woof. I will say with Conrad Johnson tube gear and some very nice NOS Mullard tubes, and nearfield, they sound pretty good. They are revealing to source, I give them that.
Your subjective opinion helped me get a very good preamp. I hope you continue with your viewers systems; people can be very creative. Your rants are my favorite.
Thanks a lot!
But, but, but, but I bought a mic and a Klippel. I am the authoritah!
If you're talking about ASR, yes, the guys who are doing the measurements there are very competent and know what they are doing. You can check the bio of Amir, for example, he has quite a career as an engineer.
Regarding the measurements themselves and their value: if your goal as an audiophile is to reproduce the sound as close as possible to the source (a CD or vinyl), then you definitely should aim for equipment that measures well. It won't solve everything for you, as there're also the room acoustics and other questions like listening distance, but that would be a minimum point from where you can start.
For me personally, the reviews with measurements help quite a lot in narrowing down my choices. Starting from that, I can let my subjective feelings about the products to take a final decision.
ASR is not what it appears.......
Spot on, Steve. - Excellent observation for example to point out, that there really is no convergence in sound when highly regarded speaker manufacturers are compared!
Thanks, or any speaker manufacturers! I’m a pro side as well. It’s also silly, can’t we just listen? And by what we like? Do we really need to have objective proof that it’s “good.”
Well done Steve! 100 percent in agreement. I want my equipment designed by NASA engineers, but the ones that love MUSIC and have ears to appreciatte acoustical instruments, the hardest to reproduce.
Great topic! I would love to hear a discussion between you and Amir on this subject. I think such a collaboration would be most informative.
I am with you on this one. I used to obsess over measurements. And everything changed a decade ago. Now I care a little bit about certain measurements. High Ohm headphones may signal to me, not good on a phone. High current/Low Ohm vs. Low current/High Ohm in an an amp are examples that come to mind. What I would prefer hearing from reviewers is, "Is this product very clinical, resolving, warm, has bite, substance or weight." "Is it FUN?" Those and other descriptions have way more meaning when making a choice in audio gear. Love the channel!
Steve Guttenberg is clearly speaking down on something he doesn't understand.
Sounds scared to me, maybe he thinks he will be found out !.
You might be right but you didn't counter his argument because what he is arguing is correct. Listening is more important than measurements because current measurements are just not good enough.
@@woopygoman The title asks can you measure sound quality, and the answer is yes. Decades of audio research has proven that people prefer speakers with certain measurements. Steve isn't ignorant to that knowledge. He just doesn't believe it or is lying to his viewers. Either way he failed to make a reasonable argument.
@@Cakebattered You are correct but only to a certain point. Perfect example is ultra low THD devices. They tend to sound lifeless. Not all of them but there's a trend there. I don't know what it means. Another great example of the limitations of measurements is impact or slam. How on earth do you measure that? Or how wide/tall/deep a soundstage is? Or how precise the imaging is? Or sibilance! It doesn't always show up in the frequency response graph! Metallic tweeters can sound harsh and it doesn't always show up in that graph! Or resolution? You can't measure the resolving ability of a transducer. Even components within a unit in your system like capacitors can measure the same but sound different!! Every single component in the chain has its own character. Right now all you can do is measure really basic things like different types of distortion, sensitivity/efficiency, frequency response, phase, etc... The point is it's all extremely limited. We're not there yet that's why we still have to rely on our ears. Here's a nice video where the legendary Ken Ishiwata talks a little bit about his experience with measurements vs listening. /watch?v=A2QPePifDQI And then there's the taste rabbit hole. Let's not go there lol. Anyway, Mark Fischer's comment that was pinned by Steve is great!
@@woopygoman There's a huge chasm between saying you can't measure everything and measurements don't matter. I have no problem admitting not all things can be measured. Yet, while there is no aggregate measurement for something like Soundstage and Imaging, measurements like polar response plots, which measure directivity goes pretty far, and that doesn't even take into account more complex things like Head Related Transfer Function (HRTF). You have to remember some attributes like "Impact" and "Slam" are nebulous terms that mean different things to different people. Ultimately, measurements provide a reference to compare our listening experiences to. A prospective buyer would have a much easier time finding new speakers if they focus on auditioning speakers that have a frequency response and polar response similar to speakers they are known to like. As someone who sold high end audio for over a decade, Audiophiliac style reviews are utterly useless to prospective buyers beyond entertainment value, and reassurance that they aren't the only one buying a particular product. Also Steve plays coy regarding the widespread knowledge of how terrible human audible memory is. BTW, the metal dome tweeter being bright was a widespread fallacy perpetuated by what listeners saw, not heard. Bright speakers are nearly always a crossover tuning issue vs a tweeter problem. A lack of baffle step compensation was a common culprit during the early 80s and 90s, when slimmer speakers started trending.
Measurements can tell you if a thing you haven't listened to is *likely to sound like* something you have listened to - which makes them useful points of comparison for people that don't have the ability or resources to listen to everything themselves.
They can't tell you if you will *like* the sound of something, though.
A very valuable thing in this hobby is to find a reviewer whose taste matches one's own - reviewers obviously get to hear a great deal more gear than ordinary music lovers and have a good deal of experience which can save a lot of time and introduce one to products which might well have otherwise been overlooked. In 30+ years of this hobby, from budget to (second-hand!) esoteric, analogue to digital, 2 speakers and 5.1 speakers and pretty much everything in between, I have never found much correspondence (if any) between something which measures well and whether I enjoy listening to it, or connect emotionally to it. I agree completely that it's very much a matter of taste, and mine has changed over time also, which is something often overlooked, I think - I would find some of the systems I loved in my youth unlistenable now! My ultimate take is that it doesn't matter how well something measures if it doesn't involve me emotionally - that, at its core, is what music should do and by extension what a system needs to do. As an end-note, one of the best (if not the best) sounds I ever heard was running an LP-12 through an Audio Note Kits valve phono preamp into big, full-range Meridian DSP-6000 digital speakers. I preferred this to the same recordings played in pure digital through the exact same setup - to my ears it just sounded closer to real-life instruments in real spaces - more relaxed and natural. Many wouldn't agree, but again, that's taste for you!
Best Sounding White Noise On Flat Measuring Speakers =)
Mix of both.. Measure to Quantify .. Listen to Qualify.
... We all use measurements to evaluate things we 'think' of buying.. Something had been measured or numbered to reflect the stats.
T-shirts and shoes have, at a minimum, a size - How it will fit. Foot traffic carpets have a rating for use.. Tires have a pressure rating for optimal performance and durability.
Point: .. Measurements get you to a limited point .. but of course, personal taste applies the perceived value. No one in the world can tell or answer this for another person ... It IS entirely subjective .. unless the buyers are simply Sheep / following a trend because of image*
I certainly hope that people stop being tribal about this issue ..and embrace the Duality of the importance on BOTH ends of this discussion.
BOTH matters of valuation are important. ... Just a matter of the Listener understanding how to use the skills in either practice.
It would be interesting to see you do a sort of "before and after" review, say, stock Magnepans versus Magnepans that have been modded by users. GR Research has "upgrade" kits for Magnepans(and many other brands) that are based on measurements but also experienced listening. I think getting your take on how the the changes affect the listening experience would make a really neat video.
People forget that Danny is a salesman is is very good at getting people to drink his coolaid.
@@scottyo64 Which is why the review I'm suggesting would be very interesting.
Hi I am one of those people. I am a tech and my friend bought some Magnepan 1.6QR's, and bought the GR research kits. We are iffy on the tube connector/magic polyethylene wire stuff, seems to make zero practical sense or electrical sense. However, the actual crossover design, and crossover parts are high quality and do exactly as advertised. Danny's design was intended to flatten out the magnepan, and it did exactly that. We finished one speaker first and did AB comparisons with a balance control moving from left (unmodded) to right. The differences were so obvious we didnt even bother to do any hyper critical tests. I know this comment was intended for Steve but I hope anyone here finds this useful. No, Danny is not selling 'coolaid' in his kits, anyone suggesting so has never tried his kits, ever.
Measurements matters to those are is search of I call it “perfection”. What matters is how your audio system sound to you. Smalls tweaks in your speaker position is more important than the specs of the speaker. Isolating your turntable ,an upgrade in your cartridge will open up the sound of your audio system. It’s all about how things sound to your ears.
From my experience selling HiFi, the customers constantly changing out gear in search of perfection were overwhelmingly subjectivists, who either didn't understand measurements or didn't believe in them.
There are some measurements that are important so that you know that two pieces of equipment will work together (will this amp drive my headphones). Most distortion measurements tell you little about sound. Coming from a live sound background there are many measurement that are important to make sure there is enough headroom at the volume you need and check the speaker/room interaction. Sometimes measurements are important sometimes they are not.
Steve, have you done a bunch of blind tests between analog and digital? thanks
I'm a 100% 'what I hear matters the most' music listener - Also , nice non-ad advertisement
I took a look at the prices for those cables and short of coming with a free sex worker, I can't imagine buying one of those.
I fully agree with you Steve. Spec sheets give no full indication of a system's sound quality. A reasonably priced one can sound great when properly set up in a specific room. And yes it's always in our ears. Everyone has his taste on what a great music should sound like.
Really enjoyed this, I liked the part about digital audio and measurements, it still has to be converted back to analog and then you have the different dac's to input their own flavor. No such thing as perfect, just perfect for me.
I have eventually gotten rid of most of the equipment I’ve bought in the last few years that measured “the best” because it just didn’t move me. I had a pair of studio monitors for a short while but dumped them because I realized that I didn’t appreciate neutral, flat response speakers. Can’t begin to count all of the Topping stuff that I had that didn’t hang around long. I’d say ASR trashed half of the equipment I currently own, and you drive yourself nuts going down the headphone rabbit hole, frequency response and soundstage-wise. Always always always comes back to how things sound to you in your environment.
@Homer Jones
Bingo. My favorite example is the Gran Prix motorcycle riders evaluating a range of bikes. Yes, the Japanese bikes seriously excelled in all specs. When asked which bike they wanted to go ride, they answered - to a man - the Ducati, thanks.
Full disclosure: I’m running a LM210IA 8 W/channel SET 300B driving a pair of Klipsch Heresy III i.e. full specification disasters… 😊 Enjoy the music.
Hello Homer, I agree with your sentiment. I have a waste pile of Topping gear that is no longer used.
so EQ it to your taste, confident that the EQ you choose will shine through
I loved Consumer Reports reviews of HiFi equipment decades ago. Their objective measurements were a good start. Of course, they didn’t review items as expensive as we see on this channel. When listening to dynamic Classical music, to my ear, digital is far better than analog. For all the usual reasons. Dynamic range, accuracy, S/N ratio, etc. “Most” solid state amplifiers, not counting power output, have very similar objective measurements. So I choose those based on power output, features, convenience and subjective reviewer evaluations. Yes, subjective reviews are fun and useful. As long as people realize they’re subjective. But I shall always believe that, in and of themselves, they are not sufficient to make a wise choice. The best way, of course, is to hear the components in a showroom with music one is familiar with. Or, even better, in one’s own listening room. Unfortunately, that can be impractical sometimes.
ruclips.net/video/oujIbQXBdgk/видео.html
Many attributes of sound can be measured, and help to build crossovers and such, but I suspect sound is more complex than the sum of the measurements we know about.
To my knowledge, we don’t have a way to measure transparency, sound stage, warmth or many of the other adjectives used by reviewers to describe sound.
yes but the things we can measure don't have a linear relationship to the things we perceive
pitch is not the same as frequency for example
Agree with "imaging" and "soundstage". There are recordings of footsteps. People have started to estimate soundstage in number and location of footsteps heard.
I've heard "this x covers 8 steps, this other covers 12". It's just a matter of time.
"Dark" or "warm" are bass or lower mid leaning.
Transparency is basically very low noise floor and accurate depiction of detail.
When I switched our gear from tube to solid state my father used the terms "this is transparent, clear" (He loved music but was not involved with the jargon and gear)
There are no units of measure, at least not directly. But it is not radically subjective. Focus groups can reach consensus on a gradient of these concepts.
As someone who Has DIYed quite a few loudspeakers I can tell you that objective measurements can absolutely tell you how a speaker will sound. It just takes much more than on axis response and distortion to get that, and even some companies don’t have those resourses.
The reason we can use these measurements is because they have been backed up by subjective blind AB listening tests as to what most people prefer. The problem is that not everyone is looking for that reference sound. Some people like the sound brighter/darker, more/less bass, better imaging/larger soundstange, and like you mentioned, high/low spl. The engineers must choose what their listeners would want and put that together at the lowest price for their company.
Subjective reviews themselves are a form of measurement, and IMO if a reviewer blankly states that the speaker is good or bad, they aren’t a good reviewer. People should listen to what their reasons for the speaker sound good are more than anything. If those match with their own tastes then there is a good chance they’ll like it.
Overall, as someone who uses objective data more than listening tests, sometimes I do think some of what reviewers say is hooplah and placebo, but obviously I still watch and enjoy your videos, and that’s because I get something out of them.
You mentioned a specific listening distance being optimal for certain speakers and I have an opinion on it. I don’t think that there is one certain distance say 8 or 9ft where the speaker is best, but their are certainly better ways of listening for example near field or far field in terms of voicing. Also, some towers can have drivers become out of phase if you listen too close. You mentioned Andrew jones so I’ll use elac as an example. Their speakers are usually voiced slightly down at the top and that could be done because people tend to listen to his speakers in small apartments in a midfield/nearfield range. This means that the room won’t be doing that much and the reflections won’t be boosting the lows and mids which would in turn make a flat speaker sound more balanced. So that is an instance where you would want to listen at a close distance because if you listen far away then the sound might be muffled by lack of highs. Just a guess! Great video Steve!
This is a very timely question for me. I am having the XOs in in my 1988 Tannoy FSMs rebuilt from scratch as we speak.
They had what I felt was very pleasant sound. I hauled them to Texas to have the work done. They were extensively measured and a flat response was not to be found anywhere. The quality of the components in the XOs was quite low as well. So when they are rebuilt I expect, after a long burn in, to hear the angels voices. I will let you know.
The sound image, respectively the sound is appreciated in several ways....or cataloged.
In general, the audience... people, as we know, aspects of human physiology are involved here. Each person being unique, has different hearing. Bearing in mind that the appreciations of various people, be they instrumentalists, audiophiles... etc., are subjective and depend on the state of health, rest, stress factors and a number of factors at the time of the audition.... I mention that technology and devices , we do not mention them here.
A pertinent analysis is to use high analysis technology, spectrum analyzer, professional or laboratory microphones where applicable, special anti-noise chamber, measuring... the dynamics, the frequency spectrum and the linearity of the signal... music, sine signal... And so on
This analysis is truly objective!
After that, the data acquired in this way scientifically must be added to several opinions and analyzes after the auditions, people involved expressing their opinions on some well-chosen criteria in the form of nominal audition tables with questions and comments on the sound material heard in the tests.
And after this, all the nominal audition tables and the collected scientific data should be collected and combined all together.
And to make an arithmetic and percentage average for these data.
The result being a combination between human hearing and scientific equipment.
I consider this result very close to the truth, with small margins of error.
If we open the discussion about the equipment... we never end the discussion due to the immense diversity of devices available to the audio amateur public.
And YES it is possible to measure the sound quality, but only under special conditions and with appropriate devices!
Never at home in amateur mode!
Best wishes Diplomat Engineer George .
It's like choosing a spouse "on paper". You can't see the personality on paper, you have to meet in person. Sound is similar ;)
@George V Prochazka This is so on point it made me laugh. Thank you.
What I never understand is why reviews talk or write about certain headphones only sound better after eq than in stock format, as if the company themselves don’t have ears……
Great observations, Steve. My main concern is when a reviewer subjectively recommends using an amplifier rated for 8 ohms with a 4-ohm speaker. I've experienced this myself!
1. I don't necessarily think it's a matter of quality, but measurements are necessary in reviews in my opinion to reliably convey information. If you want to know how a speaker sounds, look at the frequency response graphs. Flowery audiophile language is not helpful and is subjective. In my opinion, a review that is 100% subjective and offers no measurements or data is a form of entertainment and is not useful information to make a buying decision on.
2. If you buy a speaker based on a subjective opinion, then you are buying that reviewer's taste in speakers. If you are presented measurements, you know how the speaker sounds and if it matches your tastes and can make an informed decision.
I’m big on headphone systems. I started out with mid level equipment based on reviews that spoke to great measurements. While the components were good, they didn’t make my headphones sound amazing. As I progressed in my journey I found subjective reviews that gave opinions from knowledgeable people who had similar taste aligned best for me. They’re recommendations helped me find gear that sounded great and gave me chills while the other gear sounded thin or way too bright and I couldn’t listen to it beyond moderate volume levels.
Steve’s subjectivity is the main reason I listen to him. In today’s “no store near me” world, where actually hearing gear is next to impossible, the opinions of our reviewing pals is very helpful.
Having said that, I find sound demos to be useless, but a reviewer comparing products and exploring different combos of amp and speakers, etc, to be VERY helpful.
If I wasn’t old, fat and lazy I’d do RUclips reviews and do nothing but compare gear.
I'm thankful that I discovered Crutchfield. You probably won't pay the lowest price for the gear, but the 60 day auditions and being able to return for just a $10 shipping fee has turned out to be priceless over the years.
I know this sounds like an ad for them, but over the years, I have found you never really know what you are getting with audio equipment until you get the equipment in YOUR room and listen to it using YOUR equipment.
I used to demo speakers and amps from crutchfield until they banned me from ordering anything. I don’t blame them
While I have been doing measurements since the late 1960s, and I am a strong believer in having standards for measurements, be they ANSI, ISO, or AES, I feel strongly the subjective review done by an " expert" based on his or her experience, is of equal value. I am most happy when I see a good review backed up by competent measurements. I am less interested in the product than when I see either review type conducted in the absence of the other. Case in point, the Denon integrated amplifier, Klipsch stand-mount speakers, and Audio-Technica phono cartridge that I purchased were made known to me by reviewers such as Steve and by other reviewers who not only echoed Steve but also provided measurement data.
When I read a review of an amplifier, I expect to learn that it sounds better with some speakers than others. When I see measurements for the same amplifier, I also expect to see how it performs into a standard load and for a range of loudspeakers (failing that, a comment should be made about optimum speaker types). The same applies to every audio component. There are few universals in audio because sound is so damn complex. Acoustics is the oldest branch of physics, which is the oldest science, yet it is the least understood.
Hello Steve, that’s exactly what happened to me. I had for a long time been enjoying My Atoll DAC100SE which to me sounded very good. Then come along people with test equipment and said it measures like crap and should be avoided.
So I went out and purchased a Topping D70 which measure super good, super good SINAD, etc, but in the end I enjoyed my little Atoll better.
Another example is my Sugden DAC4 which sounds gloriously good but measure like shit.
I take the middle road between measurements and actual listening experience when it comes to choosing products.
Take care,
Brian
We should first know what to trust. That what we hear or that what we know about what we hear. That is why I love my tube amp made in 1963 which has no tech data but with full range speakers bits my second which is solid and has top tech data in band, power THD but is also unique so I use them mixed. .
A friend of mine purchased few years ago new speaker columns and he paid 3x more than each of two other he was using untill . And he is still using them but with nice change - after a month he said "at least inside new columns I have speakers of better class".
It all started with a fool named Julian Hirsch in the early 1960’s. When I was 22 I went to hear him give a lecture about his dogma that if two amplifiers measure the exactly the same (I may be oversimplifying) that they will sound exactly the same. I left that lecture scratching my head and laughing at the same time. Today, we have all these technical conspiracy theorists that are trying to beat us over their head and put us down because many of us to be subjective listeners and enjoy the music!
You have your finger on the pulse of the audio world Steve. Your thinking process is getting better and better as choosing really great topics.
I think you are right on target Steve. Measurements help the designer to dial in certain aspects of the design. For example the designer may be trying to select the optimum bias or topology for a particular amplification stage and so may measure things such as noise or harmonic distortion profile and interpret the results appropriately. For example if you have a balanced amplification stage HD2 can help zero in on balance between the phases. That does not however mean that amplifiers having the lowest overall HD2 sound the best or the most accurate.
In a phono amp for you might select an operating point for the first stage that has somewhat higher distortion of some type or another in order to minimize noise in the early stages where in a line amp the other approach may be more appropriate.
At least post Junior High I have always held that as long as specifications aren't absurdly bad they have almost no correlation to sound quality and will often even show an inverse relationship.
Thank you for posting this, Steve, I think you make a lot of great points here. Nothing in the musical creation process is perfect or follows the principles of "measurement". The musicians aren't creating the music they make to "measure well", they are creating it because it makes them happy and they hope it will make their listeners happy, too. It's full of flaws and imperfections, just like them.
When the engineers mix that music, it goes through a thousand different equalizers, compressors, delay and reverb units of varying quality all pushed through miles of cable while they are trying to battle noise and phasing issues and the like. A good engineer tries to stay reasonably within the principles of physics as they can but like the musician, they are also trying to make an emotional impact with the listener in their creative choices for what gear to use and how to use it. Nothing about their process at the end of the day comes down to measurement, either.
Given all of this, why would end listeners be so concerned with how a speaker measures? If a speaker makes their favorite music sound good to their ear, nothing else matters. In the world of music production, the saying goes "if it sounds good, it is good". If it's good enough for the people who actually make the music, I don't think the listeners of that music have any place to cry "measurements or death!" in the face of that.
Steve, ... 𝙎𝙚𝙖𝙣 𝙊𝙡𝙞𝙫𝙚, as his Kung-fu is good.
Of the individuals being compelling interviews on this topic, the top of such a list would include Sean Olive.
His body of work is indeed represents some good Kung-fu.
I agree with you, Steve. Once a measured parameter is better than a certain minimum figure, say s/n better than 65db for a tape deck, to pick a random example from history, it ceases to matter very much. However, I'm sure I remember, in Paul Miller's technical section of subjective reviews in Hi-Fi News, he used to state a measurement , e.g., clock jitter, and then add a comment on how and why that specifically affected the character of the sound the reviewer had heard. I consider that helpful, in the context of a proper audition of the item, but then still not essential, as the audition alone would be.
'I thought this would make sound more real' I'm a bass player. I've been playing a long time. I've always wondered what people mean by that, 'make it sound more real'. More real than what? In what kind of room? Because a small intimate venue doesn't sound anything like an arena. The sound you hear out front doesn't sound anything like on stage. The sound someone hears standing 20 feet from the front of house mains is going to be something very different from the guy in the rafters of an arena. I've played rooms that sounded like crap. I've played some decent sounding rooms. Never did I think my bass sounded as good as it did on a recording. Bass is hard to tame live. I would say 90% of the live shows I've seen over my life time the bass was poor, ill defined. There's a few exceptions, and those were usually in smaller rooms.
Reviewing audio equipment is served well by BOTH methods of evaluation together: measurements AND listening. Both methods together are a better way.
I've learned that every element of our audiophilia can really be a hobby (or a business) unto itself, and I definitely have too many hobbies!! (e.g. records - a hobby. Turntables - a hobby. Speaker and amp building, in my case, hobbies. etc...). That said, I rely on measurements of a few items to help me avoid getting immersed in another hobby. For me, those elements are cables and passive preamps, from which I want the least amount of "flavor" or "interference" as possible. Gene DellaSala at Audioholics has shared a lot of useful cable testing (and opinion) that helps me eliminate "cabling" as a hobby - reliable terminations, measurements that support the idea that the system components are the elements really impacting what I hear, and not the power, interconnect, and speaker cabling. (BJC for me, for what it's worth, and in several cases, just bare Belden 10ga speaker wire). Great discussion, Steve, thanks!
I personally like A, B testing to hear the difference. choose which sound the best to my ears.
Can't we all coexist? I recently tested some headphones and I did subjective listening tests and made some notes. Then I looked up some third party measurements and they absolutely confirmed what I was hearing. So why not both? I think it's fair to take any singular measurement or opinion with a grain of salt. The only way to get any kind of consensus is with multiple opinions.
When I was first starting out, I was shopping for headphones based on Frequency Response numbers and graphs alone because I had nothing else to go on. However, after owning quite a few cans over the years, I've come to realize that I don't value much of anything from these measurements, because the qualities that impress me in audio equipment can't be quantified by them. Does a new piece of gear make notoriously dense tracks actually coherent? Does it make tracks I'm tired of sound like an all new discovery? Does it work across all of the diverse genres I dabble in? How does it handle precise positioning in space for music, movies, or games? I recently bought the LS50 Metas for my desk (Maybe my setup will be featured in the Audiophiliac Daily Show someday ) and after demoing and purchasing them, I only checked the Frequency Response as an afterthought. I'm still sitting here stunned at the incredible stereo separation and how utterly astounding the width of it is. That's not something I've ever seen represented in charts or figures, and it makes for some of the most detailed sound I've ever heard. Do they measure the best? Heck if I know, but they slam a smile to my face whenever I play anything on them and the value of that alone is worth more to me than all of the objective measurements on earth.
I am not sure if anyone posted this, but there is a Measurement that you mention a lot, and that is Speaker Sensitivity. I am most likely not going to be looking at any set of speakers with a sensitivity of say
yes but what if the mfr lies about their sensitivity not mentioning names here but another commenter did on one that is rated like 96dB but maybe 89 dB in reality?
@@JohnDoe-np3zk That is why reviewers make their own measurements, when possible.
Steve: great aside in this episode about cd vs vinyl. After about 25 years I finally listened to my local audio store denizens and went back to vinyl. I’m much happier and listen far more than before. One of the guys at the audio store said I was not an audiophile but a “music lover”. Could you do an episode differentiating between “audiophile” and “music lover”. Thanks! Jason.
Thank you Jason, anybody who can listen to music without multitasking (at least some of the time) is an audiophile. It’s not the equipment it’s you, so for me the line is blurry. It’s just the way I see it.
I had a 1980's Kenwood monster receiver the Super Eleven that had excellent specs , In 85 I got Ohm Walsh 2 speakers but they did not sound nearly as good as they did at Tech Hi-Fi so I blamed bad room acoustics , In 1990 I got a used Carver MXR 130 receiver whose specs weren't as good as the Kenwood but it made my speakers come alive and sound like they did at the store , with tighter more accurate bass , wider and deeper sound stage and I heard fine detail that I never knew was on the record or CD. So good specs do not always mean good sound.
You are doing it right Steve, I think the best around. And I triple thank you for introducing us to Herb, poet, painter, word weaver. Like many, I wish I could hang out with y'all down at the diner!
I've been reading reviews on Audio equipment for over 50 years and only used the information I understood. Since I was not trained or even interested in designing a speaker most of the info I wanted was Wattage (low & high), Ohms, and very little else. In a way, I've learned more through your INTERVIEWS about how things work in the Audio world. I appreciate that, but what I discovered had little to do with GRAPHS or NUMBERS. The Engineers and Designers' are more like Artist than I previously thought designing in ways to make how we hear the Sound Resemble a Concert Stage. As a result of that Imagined Concert Stage is liked by some a Great Venue, and some designs sound like Cave filled with echos. etc.
The critical question is: can you hear the measurement? Say TDH below 0.1% is in audible, so it does not matter whether it is 0.1 or 0.001. The difference is inaudible. However, say amp damping factor of ~1 (tube amps) or >100 (typical for SS) has an audible effect of what comes out of speaker with uneven impedence over frequency range (two resistor voltage splitter) and that is clearly audible as tonal coloration. Currently looking at buying an amp, and I am throwing out of consideration any amp with DF >100, then I am looking for subjective reviews. I love AudioScienceReview, as it goes to the question of audibility of measurements.
Interesting viewer system, similar to mine: Single driver speaker (PearlAcoustics Sibelius SG), VPI TT (SPS w/ADS) with SoundSmith Cartridge (Zephyr MIMC*), Marantz CD player.
The system of the day IMHO seems to be very well thought out. Nice job Mike!
Measurements are tools, but we can’t value sound quality only by measured specs. Steve is very “friendly” to guys who care only for audio specs, but not much for audio. On the Audio Science Review(ASR), owner and moderators are not that nice. They insult everybody who don’t agree withe their “Meassurment religion” . So…. Thumbs up for Steve 👍.
Thanks!
well summed up
Impedance matters so you can better match an amp. Frequency response, maybe but only if there are anomalies in the curve. The room will change everything. The best measurement is: Does your system make you happy? Do you tap your foot or bob your head or, even better, get up and dance. Also, can you listen for hours and still find the sound pleasing? One of the most respected and established audio magazines does measurements, but places more emphasis on the reviewers subjective opinion to determine if a product is good sounding. I like that methodology.
I agree with you, Steve. Measurements can help guide you to possibly a piece of equipment that a music lover might want to audition. In that way, measurements can be helpful. But, if at the end of the day, if the equipment doesn't help bring the music to life in a way that moves you, then all of the "good measurements" don't mean a thing.
You know what I like??? Reasonable people who are tolerant of opinions that don't align with their own! Live and let live.
Then I wouldn't spend any time at the objectivist forums like Audio Science Review. If I were you. Because I've never seen a less tolerant group of people in my life. And I'll be happy to give links to countless examples of them treating others with a different point of view then theirs like crap when I get home from work later on to prove it too. In case you doubt me. At least the snobs at the Audiogon Forums just ignore you. They go full on group attack mode there at ASR. And won't even give a millimeter in their beliefs. AT ALL!
@@amb3cog you don't have to convince me, I've seen it first hand. I wouldn't ever participate in any discussions there.
@@JosephTongret Me either. What I don't get is there's people there that swear all amps, and DACs sound the same to them. That's not what I hear at all, however, I'm open to the idea that these people really can't hear a difference. For whatever reason. But when you tell them you can hear a difference. It's psychoacoustics, or some other nonsense. And there's no way you can hear a difference. I always thought of that place like it was a cult.
There's the cult leader, who like most cult leaders, is clueless. And doesn't even really know how to measure properly. And there's his followers that believe everything they're told by him. And just like a cult. The leader will defend himself, and his cult passionately. And never let a slight go by. In fact I'll bet he shows up here to defend himself.
And the best part of all is that they're called the Audio SCIENCE Review, but no one there seems to actually follow the scientific method itself, which is the basis of all real science. Nor are they open to the idea that the science could be fallible. Whereas real scientists are not only open to the idea, but they're constantly checking to be sure they're correct in their assumptions. And in their results. To be absolutely positive their science is correct. Science my arse! It's a cult, and that's all. 🤦🏻♂️
Have a good night. ✌️
I use subjective reviewers for where I hear about stuff and entertainment, and then when there's something I wanna buy I double check with the objective crowd. If both groups like it then I'll generally buy it
Smooth moves!
OF COURSE!! You use all the information at your disposal to make the best choice. So much smarter than what is being advocated here by Steve.
The Cardas shirt is pretty sweet.
You know Mr. Steve, I agree with you, some years ago I wouldn't but now I wholeheartedly agree with you dear sir.
Best regards and lets all enjoy the music.
Measurements. Well, I don’t understand many measurements. Like you said, it’s so important to the designers. But, in the end, for me, it’s how it sounds to me. How the music makes me feel. It’s all subjective. I think you are dead on. Don’t dwell on the measurements. Don’t dwell on the specs. Oh well. Good morning Steve.
Good morning to you!
I have done a lot of room measurements and speaker equalisation to get flat as possible room frequency response. However flat response curve does not guarantee good sound quality. It's just good base for it. There is A LOT more to the sound what you can't measure. I have learned it the hard way.
Buying gear when Music was delivered in an analog-only time required a grasp of measurements. Hiss of tape being reduced, lower wow & flutter, the faithful reproduction of bass through a phono preamp - all of those measurements had a directly observable impact on the sound I heard. Now in the digital realm, a good deal of the supposed differences revealed by measurements do not correlate to my assessment and opinion of the sound quality. So the last frontier where a measurement might help me is for speakers, and yet that’s where measuring reliably is most fraught, and where measuring sound quality has the least capability. This all leaves me grateful, not distressed. When one’s definition of “garbage” equipment is a car 8-track player, not much in today’s audio gear descends that low. We never before had it so good.
I bought the Elac B6.2 because they were supposed to have a flatter frequency response than the original B6, which is true, but I ended up tweaking the EQ on my amp to add a few decibels more bass and treble so I guess I like a slight u-shaped EQ curve. Go figure. Still great speakers though, very clean and punchy for the money.
The "disco smile" if not overdone may please a lot of people, particularly at moderate listening levels. But I like a flat measuring speaker and to retouch FR myself occasionally. Sometimes it improves things, sometimes not. I don't like it "baked into" the speaker.
Totally agree with you regarding the Elac 6.2. Liked them, incredible at their pricepoint. Now they will go to my budding audiophile grandaughter's system. :-)
Harbeth speakers in the background...
And review to come. 7 ES 3 XD
The only "measurement" I think I would ever pay attention to anymore, might be the low frequency (bottom end) limit on a new pair of speakers.
Topping D90SE is now the best measuring dac according to audio science reviews. Is it the best sounding? I seriously doubt it. However, you'll save a lot of money buying the topping which is reasonably priced.
There are a lot of things on audioscience review which are unclear........
Some guy buy cheap Topping dac because Amir sad they measure well, but dac sound so bad so he returned it. Amir dont listening dacs or other electronics in his “reviews”, he listen speakers only in mono, what a joke… He is retired Microsoft guy , who try to be a “audio guru” without enough knowledge 👎
Thanks for your explanation and thoughts, Steve. For me. As in many things...it depends. For most electronics I rely heavily on measurements, since I believe that there is no reason today that they should not measure well. If there is an issue, it indicates to me that the designer is prioritizing something other than accuracy, and that does not match my objectives. For speakers it is more complex, as they interact with the room. I do believe that with modern "spinorama" measurements the designers are starting to converge on frequency response and directivity targets that are able to predict the speakers ability to reproduce "realistic" sound....but we are not there yet. In this case, I weigh the objective reviews, subjective reviews, and auditions. That is my approach and it has worked for me so far.
Your reviews are helpful as part of the research process. I usually balance it out with other reviews, measured and subjective. In the end, it is about the implementation of the project and it sounds on my system.
The short answer: Yes, your reviews are helpful. 👍
What people might be wanting is better hearing, as it loses sensitivity to different frequencies as we get older. Audio enthusiasts may try to compensate for that loss/change, through using different gear in different ways, on their audio journey. So what sounded good and measured very well in our 20's and 30's, doesn't necessarily sound the same in our 50's and 60's etc.
This made me think about another passion of mine - Automobiles. One can measure the daylights out of million dollar plus super cars and then numbers for a $68K Corvette. Often very close or even better, the low priced, high performance Vette’s numbers will usually be frowned upon by purists simply because of the caché of a super car. And honestly, a low cost car, like a low cost sound system, will still get you there.
A great video. Measurements are base notions. It’s a spec of the product. But the measurements do not provide acoustic impressions like sound stage, imaging, etc.
you are in this hobby to enjoy music according to your own taste.
Hi Steve, I totally agree with you. Although measurements give you an idea of what to expect, they do not tell the whole story, Also, everyone has their own preference of what they think great audio should sound like. In my view, hearing the air around a vocal or instrument seems to have the illusion of real life as if you were in the room. For me, my Magnepan’s do that and they give me the illusion of being in the same room during the recording. It is a pretty cool feeling!
I agree with your argument that we don't play tones through our system. I understand where you're coming from. The thing is, the measurements done on audio equipments are (most of the time) captures VERY LITTLE data about the said equipment parameters, and woth that said, the readers will mostly either does not understand fully what the measurements mean, nor what to do with the data. The sinple analogy I can come up with is like taking a picture of an elephant from the front, overlooking it's head. The picture does not capture the size of it's body, the length of it's body, the weight, etc. There are many aspects that needs to be measured, and how to interpret the measurement data is also VERY IMPORTANT. Without the knowledge and understanding of the data according to the specific circumstances when the data taken, you cannot simply take the data and use it as a reference for your own use. Audio equipment measurements are COMPLICATED and REQUIRES HIGH DEGREE of knowledge before you can interpret and use the data. But is it moot to read the incomplete data? To some users, no. At least some parameters are known, using the elephant's analogy, at least I know how tall the elephant is compared to a typical human male (for example...), How wide it is, and the texture of it's skin. Is it enough? Absolutely not. But does it paint SOME picture about the elephant? Yes. At least if you want to own one, you know how tall it is 😁. If only there's a standard of what to measure, and how to interpret the measurement data. That will help users in deciding the purchase more clearly.
Maybe they measured the bass frequency response using former top of the line MIT Ultralinear MH speaker cable. Every bookshelf speaker I tried it with had near 30 hertz lower bass than with any other speaker cable I tried it with. Which brings up the discussion of just how much bass we lose via different quality and types of speaker cable. Everything used in an evaluation is relative. According to the reviewer it sounds like they were nowhere close to 35 Hz though. With the MIT cable, my bookshelf speakers no longer needed a subwoofer. An amazing cable in every way, but was dark sounding. With a bright system I'd nominate the cable as the best audio piece of all time in my experience. Probably should've kept it, but a more neutral less dark cable was like a breath of fresh air. I do still miss some of its qualities though. Synergy is everything. I once looked inside a KLH bookshelf speaker to see what kind of crossover it had. The crossover had no circuit board & only one component; a resistor. How good a crossover a particular subwoofer has, is a major concern. I generally think subs improve the sound overall but you could lose a little purity and transparency with some of them. Choose wisely.
You got something right-a consumer who looked at both a subjective and an objective review may end up with a recommendation he/she doesn’t like.
But, where you have grossly misrepresented the objective side of things is that the objective people will tell you, “hey, according to research, this is what most people tend to like, but your result may vary.” They will not be telling you, “hey, based on my measurement, you are going to all like this.” Quite literally, no one says that.
The fact that there is no accounting for taste is well known to objective side of things.
I really encourage you to give the HiFi Summit video chat amongst Joe, Erin and Amir a look.
@thatguy I see where the issue may be. Sure, if two DACs cost the same, and one has a near perfect set of measurement, and one has a “broken” set of measurement, then there will certainly be a recommendation for the former over the latter.
However, it should be pointed out that recommendation by Amir is always going based on the assumption that the hypothetical you want a in = out type of DAC. If you will sit through the video I referenced above, Amir himself will explain that.
Now, you cant hold the words of the forum members to “ASR” though, as anybody with an account could voice their opinion. Just as you won’t use my comments to equate to Steve’s.
Measurements are huge in the headphone community and the funny part is different people’s measurements of the same headphone are different so they argue about who measures better.
Good point!
I am still a novice in this hobby, but I have learned a lot in the past couple of years watching this channel and several others.
I wouldn’t buy a piece of gear based on measurements alone but some measurements are helpful in deciding. Speaker sensitivity, low end frequency response and the like.
Let’s be honest….. do you shop for a car based on many measurements? Maybe a few. MPG rating, horsepower maybe even wheelbase. I doubt, however you consider wheel alignment measurements, camshaft lobe angels or at what temperature the thermostat opens and closes. Those may be important to the engineers but probably not to the average consumer who just needs to get to and from work. You ultimately have to sit in it and drive it.
Much like speakers, you must listen.
Those with more critical ears than mine can tell differences in amps, pre amps etc. Some measurements there may be helpful too but ultimately it’s what it SOUNDS like that’s important right? That’s why we buy this stuff !!
I agree with you Steve! I sold audio back in the late 80's. I never got hung up on specs and measurements. Some of my customers did, and I always asked them, do you listen to music or do you listen to measurements on a piece of paper? I have never bought anything myself based on measurements either. I look at measurements but I have to hear how it sounds to make a determination. If it sounds natural and musical to me, I could care less about it's measurements. Some of the worst gear I ever heard had great measurements on paper.