End Grain Sanding Test | How High Should You Go?
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2020
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This is a quick test to see how sanding impacts the color and consistency of end grain.
For high resolution photos of these test results, go here: thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/e...
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1000-grit mystery: just a theory... perhaps it depends on the pore size of the wood. As you reach 400 grit, the sanded particles may be roughly the same size as the pores and sort of lodge in them. As you go above 400, the sanding action may dislodge the larger particles, but the smaller particles are no longer large enough to get lodged, so the pores open up again and accept stain more readily. I would be interested to see the same test in a wood with much larger pores (like oak or ash) as well as a wood with no pores (like pine).
seems logical indeed.
I was going to say the same thing about pore size! But I like the extra step you added with the dislodging of particles. Good theory.
It would be interesting to see the end grain under a microscope to see the difference and to see how the particles have filled in the voids.
My thinking as well... I bet up to a certain grit, the stain can distribute vertically along the grain, but at some point the voids are too small for the particles to sink in, and therefore concentrate into a thin film along the top, looking darker in the process. I'd even bet that different stains have different grits at which that happens, based on the physical properties of the stains.
I was kinda expecting the microscope part at the end of the vid.
That's a great idea.
I think it's a matter of physics, packing, and methodology.
When you sand up to a certain point (~400), the difference in sawdust size is more or less negligible, so there's just not that much difference in how the dust packs together and fills up the holes. Something that often gets overlooked is that it's not just the end grain straws sucking up stain. The sawdust acts sort of like a sponge. Once you get to a high enough grit, the dust probably starts more efficiently packing the space, so more stain is retained close to the surface.
I'll bet that you could see a darkening up the chain effect if you didn't stairstep sand. So *just* sand at 120, *just* sand at 220, etc until it's the smoothness you expect. You won't have the lower grit particles packing into the space blocking out the smaller particles.
I think at the higher grits as you sand, the smaller particles also stand a better chance of knocking the larger particles out of the way because of sheer quantity.
Great video, Marc! This is definitely very helpful to save time where we can but also get the look we need. I always love a good experiment video.
Somebody spilled a little science into this woodworking channel.
I like it.
GROSS, HE KEEPS SAYING STAINING
Great job in presentation! Thank you, Phil
Really, really interesting results! 😮
Thanks a lot for the tests, dude! 😃
Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
You are a freakin genius !! I sanded higher than normal on the end grain of my coasters today to try this out... and it worked... the end grain sides are very close in "hue" to the edge grain sides now.
Well, I first read the "Premiered...." as 81 months ago instead of 81 minutes. I thought "Didn't think Marc had as many tattoos 7 years ago." lol
Surprising results both about the differences between 120, 220, & 400 grits and the 1000 grit mystery. This really does explain why I was never able to get the lighter color sanding to higher grits. Always thought it was just something I was doing wrong and gave up trying to figure it out. Nice to see it wasn't necessarily just me. I still sand to higher grits for the same reason you mention - the feel.
Thanks for this. A real eye opener.
Mark, this was another great video. I really appreciate the videos where you perform tests.
Glad you like them!
This is great information on a problem I didn't know existed. I'll continue to sand my entire projects to 400 for feel. As far as the thousand grit goes it might require more testing, but my theory based on a hunch is that you might be starting to approach a grit with similar size to the fibers themselves and you are opening up some of the fibers.
Quite interesting. Thank you for sharing your results.
Thank you for running this test
Excellent, excellent video. Love these scientific based comparisons. Enlightening and saves me a ton of time!
Thanks for another great video! Good information to have!
Excellent video on this topic. Thanks for sharing your experiences, information & testing on what is a somewhat frustrating & seemingly little known issue in woodworking. Good on you. Cheers from a retired carpenter/general contractor/cabinet maker/furniture designer, builder. I always applied more sanding sealer to end grain before staining or finishing as I was familiar with the "straw" effect, although I always suspected more sanding was in order. Unfortunately in many circumstances it is impractical if not difficult to do so without marring adjacent surfaces. (Ie: raised panels or perpendicular surfaces where one is surface grain & the other is end grain etc.)
Oh yeah & thumbs up for your video. Why those 6 people clicked on the thumbs down I will never know. Perhaps it was a mistake on their part or perhaps it was born from simple ignorance & little to no experience or knowledge on this subject. Looks like 400 is the magic number to smooth & close the pores. Perhaps the wood gets "toasted" or burnt ever so slightly when using very fine grits & over working & over heating the surface. Hence the darker colour at 1000 grit. I know from years of experience when sharpening & polishing knives, axes & tools (chisels, plane irons, draw knives, spoke shaves, gouges, carving tools, etc) the finer grits & polishing wheels tend to heat the blades/steel much quicker than the coarser grits. Methinks the wood too does indeed get burnt or "toasted" at a higher grit.
Fascinating on the stain side. I make many end grain cutting boards and I stop "correct sanding" at 180g. I will still pop the grain and hit it with 220 but that's a super quick hit. Feels like glass to me after that. But ya you are correct Mark. Visually there's no difference even at 120g on an oiled end grain board. Just a feel difference...
Maybe I'll do some quality/speed tests between the quick hit of 220 and a quick hit of 320 after the grain pop and see what the time and quality difference is. I'm making these things in production so I gotta be as fast as reasonably possible .. but I'll test it out and see if that 320 is safe for the grit jump and makes a feel difference. In a production environment i can't justify hitting it at 220 and then to 320 if customers are already happy with the 220. But if 320 could give me a better result with no extra effort, then I'll give it a shot. That popped grain usually sands super fast so it might work
Excellent question and (I find) stimulating answers! My Grandfather equated wood grain / endgrain with a straw broom! Your testing appears very thourough. Thanks for checking the monitor & showing the endgrain without light glare. It is a natural substance & will not be "perfect."
That's very interesting! Thanks for the video!
Very helpful demonstration.
Amazing video! Great job. Thanks
You do great comparison videos my friend and this is no exception.
Thank you very much!
Phenomenal video as usual!
Awesome info! Gonna save me some sanding time!
This Marc, is classic Wood whisperer. This is what I'm talking about!
Thank you for making this video it was a great help keep safe
Regards
Steve UK London UK
great video thanks for sharing. ps I was quite surprised about the thousand. good one
Thank you! I found this really interesting!
Awesome advice and job !
Thanks for the video and testing. I liked the record skip continuation.
Perhaps the 1000 grit is slightly burnishing the end grain at that speed in that condition?
Love the science-ish videos. Keep up the good work!
I have always sealed the end grain with lightly diluted sander sealer to keep it from getting too dark when staining. Thinning the oil based finishes with more solvent will also help with unwanted dark patches on the end grain.
Nice to see some actual experiments vs just opinion. So I guess that's why they make sanding sealer to seal the pores. I usually just use a 1# cut of blonde shellac to seal.
This has me wondering, in those rare events that one would glue end grain, whether sanding to 1000 would improve adhesion or limit wicking?
This is a great video for us wood nerds!
Hey Marc, a little unrelated to the video but just wanna say you are the best woodworking youtuber on the planet! Thanks for all your content and info
Haha thanks man.
@@woodwhisperer it honestly infuriates me how these other "woodworking"(dont even get me started on those diy'ers) channels/people have more subscribers/views when they don't even have half the skill and knowledge you have or even when it comes to just content making your humor and wit is top notch man, haha sorry man didnt mean to rant i just love your videos 😅 keep going, hope you never stop!
The 1000-grit mystery. My theory is that its so fine grit that the dust just sucks itself to vacuum instead of pushing itself to endgrain. 1000 grit is also so fine that it starts to be in between sanding and burnishing. Might affect the results. Dont have any facts, just came to mind while watching...
My guess is that 120/220/400 sandpaper smashes or tears the end grain over itself more (as it's more aggressive), while 1000 is so fine it leaves the ends open to absorb more of the stain, making it darker - like the rough cut and hand plane.
I thought it might be burnishing also. Wood grain varies so much between the rings that it only effect certain parts of wood.
Easy test: turn off the vacuum
Burnishing? Sounds right
I remember when you first presented these results on one of your Friday shows or was it a Guild Meeting - can’t remember. I’ve had better results with color differences with lacquer than you had with your oil but not by much. Like you I like going at least one grit higher for the end grain because it makes the end grain feel smoother. It’s always fun to watch friends when they notice a new piece of furniture I’ve made show up in the house. Almost immediately they run their fingers across the top and sometimes the sides and ends. They seem to be measuring the quality of my work from what’s they feel. That’s one reason I usually go to 220 on most pieces and then go up to 320 on the end grain. It was an interesting experiment. As for your 1000 grit mystery as someone mentioned examination with a microscope might be the best way to reveal what’s going on.
My theory on the 1000 grit is your getting to a point where you smooth out the finish enough to change how light refracts off of it maybe? For example its not really darker, the finish just has less defects so your seeing it clearer. Where as the lesser grits scatter the light off of them making them seem lighter.
Hey I think I have an idea about the mystery of 1000 grit !!
As you transition from 400 to 1000 ... it seems 1000 is heating the wood surface ... not exactly creating a burn but just dark ING it a little bit ... and once stained the little difference in color is sublimated.
Great episode. How about doing the same test with a spit coat of shellac, sand, and then stain.
I've found it does help the end grain better match the long grain and helps with blotches on softwood.
Very interesting result
thank you for all informations
Very methodical and informative video, not sure where you get your vid ideas from but keep at it! So final point go to 400 and stop there lol I don’t always water pop but i always lollipop
Good information! Well done 👍
Thank you! 👍
when i trained many many years ago as a furniture maker we only ever sanded to 180. the only time i was told to go higher was when the piece was small enough to pick up and hold in the hand.
Awesome video...Jim heavey in wiood mag has a video on this you could look up where he stopped at 400 on the end grain
I was wondering the same thing about sanding at a higher grip I had some boards come out darker when I did sand into a 1000 to 1200 Grit ends
I never knew this, thank you
6:03 Do you reckon it has to do with the Fresnel effect and how the lower grit might diffuse light with more intensity, even when looked from a more perpendicular angle?
God I love this video. So much prep work and thought went into creating it. Who are these clowns that give a thumb down to these? I’ve got to wonder if they are competitors or angry kids. Nothing else makes sense. Thanks for making this kind of content.
Very interesting video and results! I know wood species is often a personal choice, but poplar seems to get a unnecessary bad rap. I've built a few things out of poplar that I didn't paint, and I like the look. It's an underrated wood, in my humble opinion.
Marc’s myth buster. Sounds like a new angle
I have nothing to back this up but I BELIEVE the 1000 grit is so fine the stain washes the dust out of the end grain allowing it to soak up more.
Greats tips!
I agree with the theory that others have said already. I think the finer grit starts cutting the open pores more cleanly similar to a plane and the dust collection vacuums out the older larger particles entrapped in the pores.
I wonder if your 1000 grit paper is a different abrasive. I think in my shop my beyond-400 grit is all silicon carbide, whereas the under-400 is all aluminum oxide.
I had exactly the same thought, as my abrasive change types (alum/carbide) at the same point... on day i'll buy 400 or 600 carbide papers, and check if there is a difference... if i remember to de it ! ☺
Mark, as far a color goes, I have found that applying a “spit coat” of shellac to the end grain limits the penetration of color into the end grain. Thereby resulting in a more even color. So, the finer the grit, the smoother the surface. That’s all.
Very interesting, back to the science class!
I think from experience with end grains in the shop I work is this.
Chemical combinations demand not only certain sanding materiaks,but it's also the technique you use depending on the finish chemicals being applied.
Oil base is different from stains because of solvent.
I believe the solvent or flash base material to heat stain chemicals,if present, to dry might be the factor in the dying.
I also think the pitch in the wood is a factor,since that is also used to manufacture solvents for stains.
I think this is a chemical reaction and you have to adjust both sanding materials and technique depending on your final application chemical.
In my very limited experience I have noticed a big reason to sand to a higher grit on certain species. I just did a project using red oak, when I sanded to 220 the end grain still had a very open/porous look it just wasn’t “pretty.” Now I honestly like that the end grain has a different color. To me it’s just one more way using real wood has all the character!
Thank you!
You bet!
Thanks for giving me permission to sand less Marc. Really enjoyable video.
Any time! 😄
Extremely interesting on the 1000. I wonder if even higher grit like 1500 or even 2000-3000 would continue the same trend
Perhaps the 1000 grit is burnishing the end grain (closing the straws) so that it just sits in the surface.
This is exactly what I thought
Same, thats what I thought to
Yah, this is my understanding of it too
Yea, I'm not sure either but I will agree with Mark. I've tried several sanding techniques. I just finished an end-grain cutting board made of Jatoba and Maple. Looks very shinny! I started the Festool at 60 grit and went a total of 21 grits before ending at 10,000. Took 2.5 hours. Whew! Must I do this to all of my cutting boards? eh, yea, I think I better. Conclusion- The Jatoba and my head are both very hard.
When it comes to high grit sanding I have a bit of a theory/hunch as to darkening. with wood finishing you see some similarities to leather - at a point it changes from sanding to burnishing (friction polishing rather than abrasive removal). I think that at 400 you have abrasives removing wood more than burnishing it, so the pores are filled with the sawdust created, but at 1000 you don't have the particles size to abraid away wood and it more flattens the exposed fibers without clogging - burnishing them down (similar to leather burnishing edges).
A note about color and tone with end grain. Typically, the end grain doesn't get viewed with as much light (think about how a table sits with overhead light), therefor making it appear darker. Just a thought.
Thanks for the testing and thoughts on this, Marc. Maybe if we sand to 8000 the black stain will open a portal or something? I'll test and get back to the group.
Perhaps above a certain grit threshold, the size of the removed particles is small enough that it is "sucked" into the grain thereby allowing slightly more stain.
my guess is, and it's only a guess, that at 1000 grit the end grain is polished open and the dust that is forced into the resultant opened grain is more absorbent.
That's what I thought. I read these before responding and here it is. Aaron (above) makes and interesting point but with his theory, both woods would have to have the same size poors. I'm going with not likely but just a guess.
Can you use an end grain plane to also plane the face grain? Which end plane do you recommend? Thx
As to the 1000 grit mystery, we might get a clue if you saved 1-3 grams of dust from the 120, 220, 400, and 1000 grits and then added enough oil and liquid stain to each to reach saturation. My guess is that the color of each dust pile will get darker with increasing grit because the particle size shrinks and the surface area (think absorption area) per gram probably goes up. That is just a guess, but doing this experiment would help understand if the end grain color difference is due to the ends of the tubes changing color or if it is the dust retained in the tube changing color. Of course I could be totally wrong about this, but whatever we see could give us new direction.
I hate Big Bang Theory but I've gotta say that "BUBINGA!" shirt is excellent.
I am wondering if the 1000 grit is actually lifting the crushed fibers and microscopic dust particles out of the wood fiber and "unclogging" them. Opening them up enough to take in some additional stain.
My theory for the 1000 grit pertains to the size of the grit. Is it so small that the grit from the sandpaper gets buffed into the end grain? Then when cleaning with mineral spirits, the small grit is not wiped away by a cloth?
To me the key question is why did the sapele and poplar get darker at 1000 grit, when the walnut didn't. Guessing it may be about pore size (as others have guessed), but my theory may be a bit different. Poplar and sapele have small pores, so it may be that at 1000 grit the sanding dust is finally small enough to pack into the pores and then take stain. Walnut has much bigger pores, so maybe the fine dust doesn't pack in as much (the packing occurs at larger grits where it isn't as noticeable due to the rougher surface?). Just a guess... Thanks for a great video!
Yet another theory about the 1000 grit: my understanding of sanding is that it sort 'mushes' the fibers into a pulpy dusty mess. At some point, you have mashed the ends of the capillary structures so that strain is less really absorbed. However, at a high enough grit, perhaps any remaining debris is scrubbed off leaving just a hint more available pore surface for stain penetration.
I watched a video of a guy that mixed 1:1 ratio of wood glue. He coated the end grain and let it dry. Then sanded to 220. After applying the stain, it seemed to keep the color more consistent with the top. Thoughts?
I’m curious if the direction of the grain (like if when if was a tree it was running up or down) effects wether that 1000 grit would end up darker all of a sudden. Because they are channels like the veins in our limbs pulling water up. So if the “bottom side” pulls water up then the other cut side off the tree would technically push water out.
Also wonder if it’s because the dust got so fine that you were able to wipe it blow the dust out on the pores. Clearing them more. Of the dust because fine enough for water to more easily pass through into the pores.
Very cool experiment by the way. I just learned last night the trick about sanding end grain higher than face grain and it blew my mind 😆
It would be helpful to know how sharp the plane blade was, and what the cutting angle was maybe? Plus, like you said, multiple species in play would be cool. my no. 5 1/2 with a blade sharpened to 16,000 grit leaves domestic hardwood end grain planed on the shooting board WAY smoother than 220 or 400 grit...
You can get a smooth feel on end grain by using a good sealer and sanding it properly, perhaps one additional coat of finish will make end grain "feel" like the flat grain.
If you want a difference and having an equal stain color, you need to put lacquer mixed with 50-75% of lake diner. Spray the whole peace, then very light sanding and voila! Your peace is ready to receive the finish and this way the color will be even all over no matter what. You can by sealer If you want , but it’s cheaper doing it yourself. 😉👍🏼🇨🇦
I wonder if the 1000 grit is creating dust fine enough that it is being driven into the fibers(more difficult to remove), and that is what the dye is absorbing into.
Great video. Apologize if I missed it. What were the sides sanded to vs the end grain?
The same. But I didn’t really focus on the sides and faces much so they’re a little dirty.
I'm going to proffer the following hypothesis for your unexpected results between stain at 400 and 1000 grit. My guess is that at the microscopic level at 400 grit there are tiny fuzzies that are literally clogging the pores of the wood not allowing as much stain pigment in. Sanding to 1000 grit would have removed most of these fuzzies thus opening the pores and allowing more saturation. Just a guess.
@WoodWhisperer (or anyone else that knows) Is there anyway to stain/oil/dye poplar that will make it look nice. I've got some really pretty looking rainbow poplar that I'm going to use as a desk top for my daughter and really wanted the purple color to show through. How can I finish this desk without it looking ugly? I'd rather not paint it.
The 1000 grit anomaly is interesting. I wonder could it be that the smaller shaved particles are getting trapped despite wiping with your solvent of choice. Could an air blast dislodge them prior to finish?
Couple ideas:
Perhaps jumping from 400 to 1000 was too great of a jump (contrary to popular belief). I could imagine too fine of a grit taking the relatively large peaks and valleys of the 400 end grain and fraying them (in-turn making more "straws").
Or maybe at 1000 grit you're making dust that's so much smaller than the fibers themselves that it's preventing backscatter. Like sealing your driveway, except with light.
According to Bob Flexner in his “Understanding Wood Finishing” book, it’s not about sanding to a high grit on end grain to avoid more stain absorption, it’s about sanding the end grain thoroughly to ensure even staining and over absorption. 🤷🏻♂️
sure but on this test it didnt change those things
Is it possible that the sawdust from the 1,000 grit sanding is finer to the degree that it is absorbing the finish?
When you passed the paper towel across the end grain it sounded scratcher on the 1000 than the 400, maybe that 1000 grit pad needs replaced?
I heard exactly the same, i dunno if the pad was new or old, but the 1000 grit definitely sounded "scratchier" than the 400 !!
Do you think Shannon would have gotten a different result on the planed surface?
I would like to see you also test 600 & 800 grits to see where going higher grit starts getting worse since 1000 grit is too high of a grit when staining.
If you're staining, I doubt that darker color will matter at all. The difference is slight and probably wont amount to much under a stain. Also, if you're staining, you probably don't want to go any higher than 220 anyway.
Could the micro dust particles in the 1000 grit be clogging the pores in the wood? Making it turn darker.
Most of this depends on the wood grain and if you use your eyes and have a feel for it you can judge what paper suits what finish best.
I am of the opinion that nothing beats a plane surface not even sanding.
Maybe the finer dust you get from the 1000 doesn't clog the end grain as efficiently as the higher grade and is washed away with the finishes more easily, letting the pores more open to retain more finish.
Sealing or partial sealing the end grain with shellac before staining first should get a better result. In effect we are over-staining.
did you use the same piece of sand paper?
Beyond a Noob here but would a diluted mixture of wood glue with the color of stain you want would that help to eliminate some of the grain kind of filling in some of the "canyons" if you would for lack of a proper vernacular?
One day I got carried away with a piece of pine 2x4 for a project and just kept going all the way to a wet sand with a 600 grit sponge. You could slide naked off this thing and not get a splinter, it was even shining. I should have sold it for big bucks