I'm Scottish. In my mind, it doesn't really matter whether it's being used in a "costume" for a renaissance faire or whether it's being used in the "traditional" manner. A kilt is still a kilt, and it's appropriate garb for the sort of time period (the great kilt even more so, plus it doubles as a cloak/sleeping bag), so if you want to wear one, go for it! Word of caution - If you're doing a ren faire somewhere hot and sweaty, you may want to rig up some sort of A/C solution downstairs... Kilts are *very* cosy, and your bits might melt! 😃
I'm American and wear my kilt for tradition, as it was passed down by my father. I prefer it in the heat because its more likely for the breeze to hit and it feels just right. To be fair mine is a utility kilt and therefore made out of a more breathable material than most kilts.
@@seosamh.forbes The dress ones that you can hire over here are really thick wool, and being a "true Scotsman" is the only way to wear them 😃Even in the dead of Winter. I think you can get thinner ones, like the sort you've got, but they're a bit more rare over here. The dress ones are also eye-wateringly expensive!
@@MrSpleenboy yeah I've been meaning to get just a normal wool or the like that's my tartan for a long time, but I don't have wads just burning holes in my pockets.
I’m surprised “quality” wasn’t mentioned here. In my mind the line between costume or not is the quality of the item. Of course the is a gray area as well.
I get the "spectrum" thing, and the idea of "tartan/kilt as a fashion statement", but I do feel that there needs to be a bit more clarity on the costume versus traditional dress thing. I agree with Eric as he began explaining his view (4:11) through about 5min49. I am new to Celic culture, but I've been in Bavarian (German) culture for decades, and we have the same thing with our "Tracht" - a continuum from Amazon (or whatever) costumes to purely traditional clothing. BTW, most of the stuff worn at the Oktoberfest in Munich would fall in the _traditional clothing leaning towards modern adaptations_ ... like what Eric was saying you would wear to the Pub or casually to your Grandmother's house. Not full-on historically accurate, but a casual rendition with a definite nod towards tradition rather than pure "fashion". Of course, there are plenty of people at the Munich Oktoberfest in full-on traditional clothing. When I perform traditional Bavarian music and dances at local German Festivals, I am in full-on historic clothing because I want to faithfully represent the Bavarian culture from the late 1800's and early 1900's. When I see people in the Amazon (or whatever) costume... well, I just hope they are having a good time 🤣 Note for the guys at German festivals: If your shorts and suspenders aren't leather, it's a costume (there are a few... very few, exceptions) Note for the gals at German Festivals: If your skirt more than an inch or two above your knee (really should be below the knee), it's a costume Final note: You do you, I'm not the costume/clothing/traditional wear police, and I just hope you have a little fun! 👍
When I think that when I was doing Highland dancing and needed a kilt I actually wrote to the head of the clan my family came from some 100 years back, actually more recently as it was my great grandmother who was half Scottish and half Welsh and shed died after WWII, to check that there would be no problem in wearing the clan tartan. Not only did I get permission but I also got permission to wear the tartan of the over-reaching clan - we were a sept of a larger clan - and a thank you for BOTHERING TO ASK. Politeness goes a very long way and if you are going to wear a tartan it is only polite, unless it is a uniform such as in a pipe band or military regiment, to ASK PERMISSION FIRST. Same as my friend, she wore the Canadian Air Force tartan but ASKED PERMISSION first because it was the POLITE and CORRECT thing to do. This was New Zealand in the 1980s and we weren't the only ones, you were encouraged to ASK before simply deciding on a pretty tartan, because it was THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Nothing annoys me more than someone seeing a tartan and grabbing it, often with no idea of where it's from, the history, even the clan name let alone anything else when it would take a couple of minutes - and a short delay - TO ASK PERMISSION FIRST. Guess common courtesy and general politeness has disappeared. You will almost certainly be told to go ahead but it is the THOUGHT/ACTION that counts, courtesy is important, or so we were taught at least, and that includes ASKING PERMISSION before doing something.
In the USA April is Scottish/American History Month. I am 59yo female and I get many looks. So I bow and say Happy Scottish American Heritage month. People 18-35 really like my freedom of expression. 35-65 really like the fun of it. It encourages people to push their own personality and openness about themselves. One lady loved it so much she was determined to have family party during Polish/American history month in May. Over 65 laugh at me, but at least I give them something to laugh about. I accessorize with knee high socks, flashes, sporan, big belt, with concealed carry Glock, my Army jungle boots, and a Clan Maclean tshirt.
@@edmundooliver7584 Most modern pagans are fantasists too. Very few actually learn about the pre-Christian religions and instead opt for a mish mash of ideas from the middle east, 19th and early 20th century esotericism and generic spirituality. They usually exist in very small groups or as lone practitioners so they're free to make up stuff without being questioned. Go look at sites covering Druids for instance, full of people either just posting pictures of trees or asking if they can combine their worship of random Egyptian god A with Druidism (which they've read nothing about) or asking for information about an obscure god whose existence consists of a single inscription and no one knows what they were a god of- modern paganism is full of lost people trying to appear relavant by being a follower of fringe things. The usual response for combing unrelated religions is "of course you can" because most of the people on such boards/sites don't have any real knowledge either. Those who are actual reconstructionalists are abandonning the word pagan/neo-pagan in favour of the name of their religion which is as it should be. Hindus are not pagans, they're Hindus. Pagan is an old Roman term referring to someone who lives in the countryside (pagensis - modern French payes). When Christianity spread it spread in the towns first so the people living out in the country (who were the majority back then) were regarded as ignorant and the term pagan referred to the ignorant country people clinging to their old religion - it's a term not dissimilar to country-bumpkin or hick.
When I consider that Europeans do not have ren faires as we do here in the States, I wonder what a wild wild west show would be like in Great Britain or Scotland, complete with chaps and boots and ten-gallon hats and pop guns (peace-tied, of course). My daily wear is a utility kilt with normal clothing matched to the kilt. I usually save my tartans for the ren faires or a special occasion, also matched with appropriate accessories for the event. How do you dress up your ren faire garb? Look around at what others are wearing to get some ideas. Ask what we’re wearing, where did you get it (how much did it cost).
it would actually resemble the west during the time, which isn't hard it's basically yesterday and most of the people were those coming from Europe anyway, fashions developed purely in the region were rather limited so it would be just like any reanactment. Ren faires however are like if a person went back in time but instead of visiting literally anywhere on the entire continent during anypoint of the middle ages they just got brain damage and drew some crap they saw on a cereal box. We mock you relentlessly not only because to do that as an adult is cringey as hell nor that the obvious desperate flailings of a people without any culture or ties to their homes desperately trying to form culture but no it's the fact that even with all the historical documentation we have you still get everything wrong and not even close. Then again most americans claim to have irish ancestry when the number that actually have it is ridiculously low
If the only time you wear something is at a Ren-Faire kilt or dressed like a monk or even a knight then it's a costume. Just my not so humble opinion. Now let the peasant get the touches and pitch forks. 🤔😉
Flogging twee, vaguely fictional versions of Scottish culture to tourists has been actual Scottish culture for almost as long as kilts were a thing, so do what you want with it, we don't care.
Given ALL the police out there, I advise everyone to never wear anything outside your private domiciles because EVERYTHING is derived and appropriated and SOMEONE is gonna come after ya.
I think Americans are much more open to blending things, because we are very much a blended culture. A person may have grandparents from four different ethnicities and all the various traditions associated with them, so those traditions tend to get blended.
I'm not sure about saying Sir Walter Scott and others "revived" wearing the kilt. It seems to have been still fairly common decades after Scott. There is a painting from around 1846 by the French artist Rosa Bonheur of a drover with a flock of sheep on Takmadoon Road just North of Kilsythe. The man is wearing a full kilt and a hat of a style from the mid 1800s to the late 1800s.
Hey everybody! No one has the right to tell what you are allowed to wear or how you are allowed to wear it. Cultural appropriation is not a thing, it’s just weak people trying to use your better nature to control your behavior. When some rando tries to dictate your behavior for you, tell them to ‘f*ck off!’
I don't really consider kilts to be cultural appropriation when so many Americans have Scottish ancestry, I'm Scottish and I feel like renn faires are a way of keeping in touch with an older culture and bringing it to the states, the US just doesn't have any medieval traditions and architecture like Europe does nothing wrong with celebrating it
Renn Faire is Renn Faire, it’s all about fun and merriment. I’m 0 percent Scottish and enjoy wearing my kilt to faire. I’m not going to wear a tweed jacket when it 95 degrees outside to look formal or authentic. I will “costume” it up a little to stand out more in a crowd of 30,000 people. I’m not being disrespectful, just having fun.
I lived in Scotland for about 7 years. As I understand it Scots don't really bother about people wearing the kilt. They more care about the tartan being worn. The red Stuart tartan and one of the Bruce tartans is for anyone. The Gordon tartan has so many names attached to it has become generic. If you see a garment in a shop that is tartan if it's red it's Stuart if it's dark green it's Gordon. Most immigrants communities have their own, Chinese, Sikh, Indian, Levi(Jewish) etc. There is a black and white pattern that some immigrants use. For Americans I think all states have an official tartan. Many Schools, universities, and cities have theirs. New York city has about six specific I know of. Police, Fire and borough. Around the city are more patterns. Boston being similar. Remember also tartan patterns exist for Gallicia, lots for Brittany, Cornwall and a specific part of Norway. My own country has patterns used in national dress. They are so similar to Scottish patterns they must have come from Scottish traders and migrants of the 1600s and early 1700s. There are numerous paintings starting in that period up to today showing the same patterns.
They're the equivalent of woollen suit trousers and should never be worn with a t-shirt and probably not a polo-shirt either. And no, wearing them with work boots does not make it more acceptible to wear a t-shirt with them. The problem many have is that the traditional kilted costume was picked up as women's fashion and there is a fair bit of crossover with girls school uniforms these days so people try to make their outfit look more masculine by including boots and dark colours - and t-shirts. By the by, the Japanese girls uniform with the sailor collars was once unisex and originally mostly boys (in Europe) as it came directly from navy uniforms, now it's associated specifically with girls - other than formal naval attire.
@@edmundooliver7584 Well, the average Scot was opposed to the kilt at the time they were commonly being worn in the Highlands, they were regarded as the costume of land pirates but essentially opposed because they weren't lowland fashion which was the same fashion as that of England and most of western Europe. It wasn't until the King visited Scotland in the 1820s and wore a Highland outfit to a couple of events that the kilt became acceptable beyond the Highland Regiments. This was about 80 years after the kilt had been banned as casual wear and 40 years after the ban was lifted. Suddenly lowland gentry all wanted their own tartans and started wearing them in imitation of the King and the kilt became a nationwide thing at that time - but it never became common fashion. Ultimately the kilt is just a piece of clothing. If you're going to link it with historic culture then it was specifically the clothing of those eligible to be part of the clan army and it was used as a uniform by the Jacobites so lowlanders who joined the cause also dressed in kilts or at least tartan - that's the reason the kilt and tartan was banned for wear by Scottish men not in the British Army, it was seen as a rival military uniform by the British and even today the kilt suit is heavily based on the Highland uniforms developed during a hundred plus years of service in the British Army (mid 18th to mid 19th centuries - after that they stayed roughly the same to the present).
Im Scottish and have no problem with how when or where the kilt is worn. If its worn, Im happy - and as the man said, kilts are expensive, lots of sheepskins and weavers skills were used so create each kilt so wear it everywhere and get your moneys worth.
I'm Scottish. In my mind, it doesn't really matter whether it's being used in a "costume" for a renaissance faire or whether it's being used in the "traditional" manner. A kilt is still a kilt, and it's appropriate garb for the sort of time period (the great kilt even more so, plus it doubles as a cloak/sleeping bag), so if you want to wear one, go for it!
Word of caution - If you're doing a ren faire somewhere hot and sweaty, you may want to rig up some sort of A/C solution downstairs... Kilts are *very* cosy, and your bits might melt! 😃
I'm American and wear my kilt for tradition, as it was passed down by my father. I prefer it in the heat because its more likely for the breeze to hit and it feels just right. To be fair mine is a utility kilt and therefore made out of a more breathable material than most kilts.
@@seosamh.forbes The dress ones that you can hire over here are really thick wool, and being a "true Scotsman" is the only way to wear them 😃Even in the dead of Winter.
I think you can get thinner ones, like the sort you've got, but they're a bit more rare over here. The dress ones are also eye-wateringly expensive!
@@MrSpleenboy yeah I've been meaning to get just a normal wool or the like that's my tartan for a long time, but I don't have wads just burning holes in my pockets.
In my mind, I think of traditional wear as the tree trunk. And all the other styles branch off that.
Ufda! 😂
I’m surprised “quality” wasn’t mentioned here. In my mind the line between costume or not is the quality of the item. Of course the is a gray area as well.
It's definitely a big part of it!
I get the "spectrum" thing, and the idea of "tartan/kilt as a fashion statement", but I do feel that there needs to be a bit more clarity on the costume versus traditional dress thing. I agree with Eric as he began explaining his view (4:11) through about 5min49. I am new to Celic culture, but I've been in Bavarian (German) culture for decades, and we have the same thing with our "Tracht" - a continuum from Amazon (or whatever) costumes to purely traditional clothing. BTW, most of the stuff worn at the Oktoberfest in Munich would fall in the _traditional clothing leaning towards modern adaptations_ ... like what Eric was saying you would wear to the Pub or casually to your Grandmother's house. Not full-on historically accurate, but a casual rendition with a definite nod towards tradition rather than pure "fashion". Of course, there are plenty of people at the Munich Oktoberfest in full-on traditional clothing. When I perform traditional Bavarian music and dances at local German Festivals, I am in full-on historic clothing because I want to faithfully represent the Bavarian culture from the late 1800's and early 1900's. When I see people in the Amazon (or whatever) costume... well, I just hope they are having a good time 🤣
Note for the guys at German festivals: If your shorts and suspenders aren't leather, it's a costume (there are a few... very few, exceptions)
Note for the gals at German Festivals: If your skirt more than an inch or two above your knee (really should be below the knee), it's a costume
Final note: You do you, I'm not the costume/clothing/traditional wear police, and I just hope you have a little fun! 👍
When I think that when I was doing Highland dancing and needed a kilt I actually wrote to the head of the clan my family came from some 100 years back, actually more recently as it was my great grandmother who was half Scottish and half Welsh and shed died after WWII, to check that there would be no problem in wearing the clan tartan. Not only did I get permission but I also got permission to wear the tartan of the over-reaching clan - we were a sept of a larger clan - and a thank you for BOTHERING TO ASK. Politeness goes a very long way and if you are going to wear a tartan it is only polite, unless it is a uniform such as in a pipe band or military regiment, to ASK PERMISSION FIRST. Same as my friend, she wore the Canadian Air Force tartan but ASKED PERMISSION first because it was the POLITE and CORRECT thing to do. This was New Zealand in the 1980s and we weren't the only ones, you were encouraged to ASK before simply deciding on a pretty tartan, because it was THE RIGHT THING TO DO. Nothing annoys me more than someone seeing a tartan and grabbing it, often with no idea of where it's from, the history, even the clan name let alone anything else when it would take a couple of minutes - and a short delay - TO ASK PERMISSION FIRST. Guess common courtesy and general politeness has disappeared. You will almost certainly be told to go ahead but it is the THOUGHT/ACTION that counts, courtesy is important, or so we were taught at least, and that includes ASKING PERMISSION before doing something.
In the USA April is Scottish/American History Month. I am 59yo female and I get many looks. So I bow and say Happy Scottish American Heritage month. People 18-35 really like my freedom of expression. 35-65 really like the fun of it. It encourages people to push their own personality and openness about themselves. One lady loved it so much she was determined to have family party during Polish/American history month in May. Over 65 laugh at me, but at least I give them something to laugh about. I accessorize with knee high socks, flashes, sporan, big belt, with concealed carry Glock, my Army jungle boots, and a Clan Maclean tshirt.
Renfest is now 100% fantasy. Video games with fairies in them are more historically accurate.
yes, but it's Pagan not fantasy
It can still be fun though. Walk around, eat way too much, talk funny, buy things you don't need, and have fun.
@@edmundooliver7584 No. It is fantasy. There is nothing pagan about renfest.
@@edmundooliver7584 Most modern pagans are fantasists too. Very few actually learn about the pre-Christian religions and instead opt for a mish mash of ideas from the middle east, 19th and early 20th century esotericism and generic spirituality. They usually exist in very small groups or as lone practitioners so they're free to make up stuff without being questioned. Go look at sites covering Druids for instance, full of people either just posting pictures of trees or asking if they can combine their worship of random Egyptian god A with Druidism (which they've read nothing about) or asking for information about an obscure god whose existence consists of a single inscription and no one knows what they were a god of- modern paganism is full of lost people trying to appear relavant by being a follower of fringe things. The usual response for combing unrelated religions is "of course you can" because most of the people on such boards/sites don't have any real knowledge either. Those who are actual reconstructionalists are abandonning the word pagan/neo-pagan in favour of the name of their religion which is as it should be. Hindus are not pagans, they're Hindus. Pagan is an old Roman term referring to someone who lives in the countryside (pagensis - modern French payes). When Christianity spread it spread in the towns first so the people living out in the country (who were the majority back then) were regarded as ignorant and the term pagan referred to the ignorant country people clinging to their old religion - it's a term not dissimilar to country-bumpkin or hick.
When I consider that Europeans do not have ren faires as we do here in the States, I wonder what a wild wild west show would be like in Great Britain or Scotland, complete with chaps and boots and ten-gallon hats and pop guns (peace-tied, of course).
My daily wear is a utility kilt with normal clothing matched to the kilt. I usually save my tartans for the ren faires or a special occasion, also matched with appropriate accessories for the event. How do you dress up your ren faire garb? Look around at what others are wearing to get some ideas. Ask what we’re wearing, where did you get it (how much did it cost).
I've seen festivals in Germany and Italy that look very much like Ren Faires. France too I think.
Don't forget the MMA events.
it would actually resemble the west during the time, which isn't hard it's basically yesterday and most of the people were those coming from Europe anyway, fashions developed purely in the region were rather limited so it would be just like any reanactment. Ren faires however are like if a person went back in time but instead of visiting literally anywhere on the entire continent during anypoint of the middle ages they just got brain damage and drew some crap they saw on a cereal box. We mock you relentlessly not only because to do that as an adult is cringey as hell nor that the obvious desperate flailings of a people without any culture or ties to their homes desperately trying to form culture but no it's the fact that even with all the historical documentation we have you still get everything wrong and not even close. Then again most americans claim to have irish ancestry when the number that actually have it is ridiculously low
Wouldn't that be something! (the wild west idea)
If the only time you wear something is at a Ren-Faire kilt or dressed like a monk or even a knight then it's a costume. Just my not so humble opinion. Now let the peasant get the touches and pitch forks. 🤔😉
Flogging twee, vaguely fictional versions of Scottish culture to tourists has been actual Scottish culture for almost as long as kilts were a thing, so do what you want with it, we don't care.
Given ALL the police out there, I advise everyone to never wear anything outside your private domiciles because EVERYTHING is derived and appropriated and SOMEONE is gonna come after ya.
This. As a person of Italian background, I say all you other folks should stop appropriating and eating MY pasta 😁
I think Americans are much more open to blending things, because we are very much a blended culture. A person may have grandparents from four different ethnicities and all the various traditions associated with them, so those traditions tend to get blended.
I'm not sure about saying Sir Walter Scott and others "revived" wearing the kilt. It seems to have been still fairly common decades after Scott. There is a painting from around 1846 by the French artist Rosa Bonheur of a drover with a flock of sheep on Takmadoon Road just North of Kilsythe. The man is wearing a full kilt and a hat of a style from the mid 1800s to the late 1800s.
Hey everybody! No one has the right to tell what you are allowed to wear or how you are allowed to wear it.
Cultural appropriation is not a thing, it’s just weak people trying to use your better nature to control your behavior.
When some rando tries to dictate your behavior for you, tell them to ‘f*ck off!’
I don't really consider kilts to be cultural appropriation when so many Americans have Scottish ancestry, I'm Scottish and I feel like renn faires are a way of keeping in touch with an older culture and bringing it to the states, the US just doesn't have any medieval traditions and architecture like Europe does nothing wrong with celebrating it
Renn Faire is Renn Faire, it’s all about fun and merriment. I’m 0 percent Scottish and enjoy wearing my kilt to faire. I’m not going to wear a tweed jacket when it 95 degrees outside to look formal or authentic. I will “costume” it up a little to stand out more in a crowd of 30,000 people. I’m not being disrespectful, just having fun.
I think he was asking if Americans who are not scottish , if they should be wearing a kilts.is it cultural appropriation?
I lived in Scotland for about 7 years. As I understand it Scots don't really bother about people wearing the kilt. They more care about the tartan being worn. The red Stuart tartan and one of the Bruce tartans is for anyone. The Gordon tartan has so many names attached to it has become generic. If you see a garment in a shop that is tartan if it's red it's Stuart if it's dark green it's Gordon. Most immigrants communities have their own, Chinese, Sikh, Indian, Levi(Jewish) etc. There is a black and white pattern that some immigrants use. For Americans I think all states have an official tartan. Many Schools, universities, and cities have theirs. New York city has about six specific I know of. Police, Fire and borough. Around the city are more patterns. Boston being similar.
Remember also tartan patterns exist for Gallicia, lots for Brittany, Cornwall and a specific part of Norway. My own country has patterns used in national dress. They are so similar to Scottish patterns they must have come from Scottish traders and migrants of the 1600s and early 1700s. There are numerous paintings starting in that period up to today showing the same patterns.
Kilts are not a costume or outfit. Depends on the person wearing it. Such a disgrace on how some people represent it
that what I'm thinking should you wear it if not scottish.
They're the equivalent of woollen suit trousers and should never be worn with a t-shirt and probably not a polo-shirt either. And no, wearing them with work boots does not make it more acceptible to wear a t-shirt with them. The problem many have is that the traditional kilted costume was picked up as women's fashion and there is a fair bit of crossover with girls school uniforms these days so people try to make their outfit look more masculine by including boots and dark colours - and t-shirts. By the by, the Japanese girls uniform with the sailor collars was once unisex and originally mostly boys (in Europe) as it came directly from navy uniforms, now it's associated specifically with girls - other than formal naval attire.
@@edmundooliver7584 Well, the average Scot was opposed to the kilt at the time they were commonly being worn in the Highlands, they were regarded as the costume of land pirates but essentially opposed because they weren't lowland fashion which was the same fashion as that of England and most of western Europe. It wasn't until the King visited Scotland in the 1820s and wore a Highland outfit to a couple of events that the kilt became acceptable beyond the Highland Regiments. This was about 80 years after the kilt had been banned as casual wear and 40 years after the ban was lifted. Suddenly lowland gentry all wanted their own tartans and started wearing them in imitation of the King and the kilt became a nationwide thing at that time - but it never became common fashion.
Ultimately the kilt is just a piece of clothing. If you're going to link it with historic culture then it was specifically the clothing of those eligible to be part of the clan army and it was used as a uniform by the Jacobites so lowlanders who joined the cause also dressed in kilts or at least tartan - that's the reason the kilt and tartan was banned for wear by Scottish men not in the British Army, it was seen as a rival military uniform by the British and even today the kilt suit is heavily based on the Highland uniforms developed during a hundred plus years of service in the British Army (mid 18th to mid 19th centuries - after that they stayed roughly the same to the present).
Im Scottish and have no problem with how when or where the kilt is worn. If its worn, Im happy - and as the man said, kilts are expensive, lots of sheepskins and weavers skills were used so create each kilt so wear it everywhere and get your moneys worth.