Totally agree, I always divide longer intervals into shorter segments, just for the mental benefit of ticking off bit after bit instead of just slogging through one long interval
Been trying to progress these the past few weeks. This week was 2 x 16 Mins (4x 1.5 Over 115% 2.5 Under 90%). Definitely feels like a good way to accumulate lots of time around threshold and train your lactate clearance / usage. Have been doing a classic supra threshold interval session weekly as well to compliment over unders and get comfortable with holding a more steady slightly above threshold effort.
Very informative, great video! Especially for indoor sessions, the longer intervals at a static level are just torture, the variety introduced by the over/under style make the workouts much more interesting. I have seen a lot of 'experts' discussing the most effective method for progressing your fitness (or increasing your threshold) and the debate is always, do you exercise 'under' your threshold and 'push' your fitness/level up or do you exercise 'above' your fitness/level and 'pull' your fitness up. For me, any discussions of these ideas as an either/or question is a fallacy, both methods work and the best results will come from a mix of both methods.
You're 100 percent describing my reason for the over under theory. It's mentally easier to get through and I think it matches outside racing more so than just setting your erg mode to x watts and going. You aren't dead on outside ever, even up a hill. I like the 1 minute up 1 down model and I'm good with it.
Over/Unders all day long and twice on Sundays.....for me. Keeps your mind working the entire interval, not matter how long or short it may be. I really like 1 minute @110% and 2-3 minutes @85% and can usually get a couple of long sets in.
I was off the bike for 20 years after racing as a teenager, only just started structured training again (6 week block), gained 25w in ftp in those 6 weeks, want to get up to 300w by next January/February, I find over unders much easier mentally to cope with than say a 15min threshold effort, I completely agree ed
Agree massively with Ed on the mental side of achieving it. More realistic of real life on the road conditions too, especially when you're trying to keep up with others on a training ride/chaingang
Two ways. Either increase the watts or increase the lenght of interval/more reps. Depending where you are atm in toyr training. If closer to your vo2max, increasing the lenght might be beneficial and if closer to race, increase the race spesific thing (most likely the time). If you have are farther away from your vo2max and there is room to increase your watts, or you are already doing quite long reps/total time ie. 4x20min, might be ok to increase watts and bit less total time and progress there again.
Yes. I'd be inclined to increase length of interval or more reps when doing this type of work rather than increasing the power, but that's just for me and where I'm at right now :)
I find doing the pace group rides on Zwift are kind of like over unders as the group surges forward every few minutes then you need to up your power...
They work multiple systems and best bang for your money I believe .. Personally I try and keep it close to zone splits so for example upper z2 and lower z3 🤔 I would love a tool that could create a random Zwift workout based on entered parameters; so in this instance over/unders would be a great example 💡 Great video and hopefully we may have some more askED sessions please 🤞 Perhaps something around surges at the end of the intervals to introduce intensity spikes?
You noticed the askED analogy ;) If you mean doing steady state threshold intervals and then introducing over unders near the end of the interval then I could see how they would be very similar to a race simulation session. Essentially lactate would already be at a decent place, going over under for the final few minutes would spike lactate (if the proceeding interval was long enough to cause a large enough build up), but I wouldn't have thought we'd need many of these to achieve the desired result given how taxing the over unders could be when placed at the end. Certainly valuable training time though.
What's the range of intensities you put in these under overs though, as %FTP? how much under and how much over? I tried to do 3x20'@FTP yesterday on the turbo, I bailed after 12' in the last set, and was so knackered I caught a cold :/
Depends on the length of the whole interval. Generally the longer the interval block the less OVERS intensity I'd be happy including. So for 3x20 I'd be thinking 30-60s OVER at 105-110% and 4-5min at 85-95% UNDER. If the session is more like a 3x12 then you could get away with 2m30s UNDERS and 30s OVERS, but the OVERS could be as much as 115%+
I used to do 2-3x 12min (2min 90% 1min 120%) I felt this would get my quickly in shape. What do you think of doing over unders like that? Nowadays I do mostly steady intervals ranging from 8-20 min 3-5 sets, I do these mostly on gravel climbs with steep gradients so they aren't that steady actually. And nothing beats a solid 30 min effort up a climb occasionally.
I agree, nothing beats a really long interval like 30min+. I would say 3x12min intervals at those intensities might be used as a good starting point but I'd like to see you doing more workload than that if you could manage it in one session...or maybe split between 2 sessions in 1 day. As you say, gravel climbs are never really one gradient so you end up fluctuating naturally but 8-20min effort repeated 3-5 times are very useful.
@@edlaverack Thanks for the input I will try it out when the snow clears on the climbs, we just got a big dump of snow again just when I was starting to increase the hours. I thought winter was over 😄
over unders are a great progression of flat efforts. they also teach your nervous system not to get stuck in rut of how an effort should feel
Totally agree, I always divide longer intervals into shorter segments, just for the mental benefit of ticking off bit after bit instead of just slogging through one long interval
Been trying to progress these the past few weeks. This week was 2 x 16 Mins (4x 1.5 Over 115% 2.5 Under 90%). Definitely feels like a good way to accumulate lots of time around threshold and train your lactate clearance / usage. Have been doing a classic supra threshold interval session weekly as well to compliment over unders and get comfortable with holding a more steady slightly above threshold effort.
Nice work! Keep it up, sounds like things are working for you!
I love doing over unders. I add a 10 sec. sprint before doing it.
Very informative, great video! Especially for indoor sessions, the longer intervals at a static level are just torture, the variety introduced by the over/under style make the workouts much more interesting.
I have seen a lot of 'experts' discussing the most effective method for progressing your fitness (or increasing your threshold) and the debate is always, do you exercise 'under' your threshold and 'push' your fitness/level up or do you exercise 'above' your fitness/level and 'pull' your fitness up. For me, any discussions of these ideas as an either/or question is a fallacy, both methods work and the best results will come from a mix of both methods.
Exactly that. Like to keep it brutally honest here and say that doesn't matter too much which you do, but just do them :)
You're 100 percent describing my reason for the over under theory. It's mentally easier to get through and I think it matches outside racing more so than just setting your erg mode to x watts and going.
You aren't dead on outside ever, even up a hill. I like the 1 minute up 1 down model and I'm good with it.
Love it!
Over/Unders all day long and twice on Sundays.....for me. Keeps your mind working the entire interval, not matter how long or short it may be. I really like 1 minute @110% and 2-3 minutes @85% and can usually get a couple of long sets in.
I was off the bike for 20 years after racing as a teenager, only just started structured training again (6 week block), gained 25w in ftp in those 6 weeks, want to get up to 300w by next January/February, I find over unders much easier mentally to cope with than say a 15min threshold effort, I completely agree ed
Obviously doing something right Stu, awesome! Cool to hear you are giving yourself a decent amount of time to reach your goal too.
@edlaverack thanks for the encouragement Ed
Agree massively with Ed on the mental side of achieving it. More realistic of real life on the road conditions too, especially when you're trying to keep up with others on a training ride/chaingang
Two ways. Either increase the watts or increase the lenght of interval/more reps. Depending where you are atm in toyr training. If closer to your vo2max, increasing the lenght might be beneficial and if closer to race, increase the race spesific thing (most likely the time). If you have are farther away from your vo2max and there is room to increase your watts, or you are already doing quite long reps/total time ie. 4x20min, might be ok to increase watts and bit less total time and progress there again.
Yes. I'd be inclined to increase length of interval or more reps when doing this type of work rather than increasing the power, but that's just for me and where I'm at right now :)
Great video! I agree with your perspective on interval training.
Thank you!
I find doing the pace group rides on Zwift are kind of like over unders as the group surges forward every few minutes then you need to up your power...
They work multiple systems and best bang for your money I believe .. Personally I try and keep it close to zone splits so for example upper z2 and lower z3 🤔 I would love a tool that could create a random Zwift workout based on entered parameters; so in this instance over/unders would be a great example 💡 Great video and hopefully we may have some more askED sessions please 🤞 Perhaps something around surges at the end of the intervals to introduce intensity spikes?
You noticed the askED analogy ;) If you mean doing steady state threshold intervals and then introducing over unders near the end of the interval then I could see how they would be very similar to a race simulation session. Essentially lactate would already be at a decent place, going over under for the final few minutes would spike lactate (if the proceeding interval was long enough to cause a large enough build up), but I wouldn't have thought we'd need many of these to achieve the desired result given how taxing the over unders could be when placed at the end. Certainly valuable training time though.
What's the range of intensities you put in these under overs though, as %FTP? how much under and how much over? I tried to do 3x20'@FTP yesterday on the turbo, I bailed after 12' in the last set, and was so knackered I caught a cold :/
Depends on the length of the whole interval. Generally the longer the interval block the less OVERS intensity I'd be happy including. So for 3x20 I'd be thinking 30-60s OVER at 105-110% and 4-5min at 85-95% UNDER. If the session is more like a 3x12 then you could get away with 2m30s UNDERS and 30s OVERS, but the OVERS could be as much as 115%+
@@edlaverack that does sound more palatable than 20'@100%. I'll give it a go next week, thanks!
I used to do 2-3x 12min (2min 90% 1min 120%) I felt this would get my quickly in shape. What do you think of doing over unders like that? Nowadays I do mostly steady intervals ranging from 8-20 min 3-5 sets, I do these mostly on gravel climbs with steep gradients so they aren't that steady actually. And nothing beats a solid 30 min effort up a climb occasionally.
I agree, nothing beats a really long interval like 30min+. I would say 3x12min intervals at those intensities might be used as a good starting point but I'd like to see you doing more workload than that if you could manage it in one session...or maybe split between 2 sessions in 1 day. As you say, gravel climbs are never really one gradient so you end up fluctuating naturally but 8-20min effort repeated 3-5 times are very useful.
@@edlaverack Thanks for the input I will try it out when the snow clears on the climbs, we just got a big dump of snow again just when I was starting to increase the hours. I thought winter was over 😄
👍!