Max Tegmark - Can We Explain Cosmos and Consciousness?
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- Опубликовано: 6 окт 2024
- The existence of both cosmos and consciousness, each in its own way, constitute deep problems, perhaps grand mysteries beyond human knowing. Some claim that the two mysteries can only be solved in parallel, together, not in series, alone. Some base their claim on religion, a few on science, others on the belief that consciousness is the ultimate reality.
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The observer is the observed. The finger can not touch itself nor can the eyes see themselves without the use of a mirror. So at best we can only see a reflection of reality... a reflection that we create in our minds.
These days it's really difficult to distinguish a physicist from a philosopher
Quite amazing how far physics has come!
Maybe all matter has some level of consciousnesses, single atoms being very low level consciousness but consciousness none the less, and the combination of them gives rise to higher levels of consciousness like ourselves.
Rocks can't process information. There's no good reason to think that.
We are one of the budding edges of the universal fractal. Amazing.
No, consciousness can not be reduced to materialism. More to life than matter and energy
I just bought his book " our mathematical Universe" , I'm really enjoying it
Read it 4 years ago and hated. Felt like reading sci fi.
@@LogosTheos lol, I guess I will find out soon
Mathematical structires, like everything else, arise in consciousness, therefore cannot be more fundamental. It is also a basic analytic mistake to oppose matter and consciousness, as here, as if they were symmetrically equal and opposite, when the very concept of matter is unintelligible except with reference to consciousness.
That's beautiful, just the idea of it takes my breath away
It´s a bit as if simulated beings inside a computer simulation would argue that computer code is the fundamental reality - which is true to their point of view, but not accurate to describe the whole reality that they are embedded in. How could they find a way to describe the reality in which the computer is in? I don´t see any.. Maybe direct contact from the creator/programmer, and even then they had no way of telling if it´s the truth or not, other than just believing.
If you are part of a system, you can not describe it as a whole, other than looking at it from the outside.
@ISAAC thanks for the comment, yes that book sounds interesting.
that´s true, the quantum mechanics is a good example.
"Why should intelligent beings in a simulation be unable to figure something out about the physics of the computer that is running their simulation..."
Yes, they can figure out how the physics etc of the computer is, but could they also figure out the whole physical reality of the outside world that the computer sits in? Could they find out about the physical laws, relativity, quantum mechnics etc... especially if their simulation would be set up according to different internal laws?
Physicalism vs Idealism.
When contained to the Physicalist paradigm you are forced to such conclusions.
Timm Brockmann Jesus Christ? Maybe he came into the simulation from the outside to reveal god
He looks like Einstein in CGI in this interview. :P
A thing Max overlooks: if there is indeed NOTHING but math, not even the illusion of non-math (qualia) is allowed to exist.
:) you are somehow underestimating math!
...what is an illusion of non-math?
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem becomes a nail.
How to let the definition define the definition...or; how to let the explanation explain the explanation.
Mathematics may be what is limiting our understanding of the relationship and scale between the very small quantum level to the very large observable universe and beyond. It's seems we have a good understanding of everything from our perspective but literally no understanding of things beyond and the relationships between each, if any. I would assume if one were able to zoom far enough out beyond our limits patterns would emerge. Fractal patterns that define another dimension wherein their complexity and dynamics are completely unimaginable to us or any other intelligent observer within the constraints of our perspective, scale and most importantly, mathematics..
It's not the "arrangement" of matter which decides whether something is conscious or not, it's just that every random pattern is an outcome of "possibilities" and that's the only criteria to qualify everything that exists to be conscious. Math is ultimately a process that describes the possibilities in relation to impossibilities..
What? if it's not the arrangement or structure of the matter my brain is made up of that is giving me the ability to process information... What is it then? Magic atoms imbued with the spirit?
absolutely wonderful, listening to him
Max Tegmark is so next-level I have no idea what he’s talking about.
An interesting and thought provoking suggestion by Max Tegmark, and nicely explained. It reminded me that consciousness/self awareness is not simply a binary yes/no question. Different organisms and creatures have different levels of consciousness and self awareness. It is interesting to consider that even the human is not fully 'self aware' of his/her place in the universe.... but is only self aware 'to some extent'.....
Space time is a non starter. Hop on the Donald Hoffman train, consciousness is the most reliable assumption we can make.
The moment we assume space or time are fundamental we lose all plausible explanations for consciousness as I and many others have experienced it.
Looks like Closer to Truth interviewed him 9 months ago. 55 minute zoom interview I’m gonna listen to now.
You can't explain it. You are part of it. You are creating a dualism.
What is mathematics without mind? Just a thought!
A plausible yet unrealisable construct.
Mathematics is a mind generator
Yes off cause We can, if We know,
We got it all in our self, so it is the psycho-analysis of our self, as give the answer,
even the colors is the only details, cosmos and our consciousness is mirrored in the rainbow as well in our body-structure and our consciousness-structure. We are Eternal, and also our consciousness is eternal, (We are, We have)
Consciousness is neither yours nor mine but it contains the history of man...this stream has been moving for thousands of years. It contains the whole content of mans ambitions, sorrow, pain, fear, greed, desires, and so forth. When man has an insight into the whole structure of this content and ends it, something new is uncovered. This is beyond thought and beyond time. Only that remains. Timeless
If we are fundamentally mathematical objects. In what way do we exist? If mathematical objects are just abstract objects then do we exist in a platonic realm? Or maybe even in a mind?
Yes. We exist in a platonic realm. We exist as abstractions of timeless mathematical laws.
Clever arrangements of things produces magic.
I've found this to be true with a power-generating machine I've built as well.
Occultists would argue that the "shape"/ritual is as important as the intent is.
Love Max!
I love that he sounds like the Swedish Christopher Walken
Max, who is it that is conscious?
Mathematics is a construct of the human mind, the yardstick of consciousness by which we measure and try to make sense of the cosmos. However there is so much as yet that just does not ADD UP !! But I think Max is closer to the truth than most.
I don´t agree with this viewpoint; I rather see it as if the mathematics in terms of the digits and signs etc. is a language that we invented, in order to write it down - but the universe with it´s mathematical precision was already there before any humans existed, so how can it be a construct of the human mind?
The letters of the alphabet and the writing is not the essential part of language, but rather just the means to write it down. Same goes for mathematics.
How do we know the Sun is inanimate?
Its just 10 to 40 power that makes up every particle but for just one process of life to make a protein is 10 to the 90 billion 0s that is just ligned up just right.
big diffrences.
Time is space. Not the emptiness that surrounds the stars. The fuller life is...the faster we travel through a space called time.
The emptier life is the slower time goes by.
The roadrunner (truth/love) knows this. The clever coyote (ignorance/greed) does not.
Lee Smolin did a great piece recently describing the realist vs anti-realists physicists, I guess Tegmark is on the "subjective" side.
He is an ontic structuralist, hence a realist.
the Law myoho-renge-kyo represents the identity of what some scientists refer to as the ‘unified field of all consciousnesses’. In other words, it’s a sound vibration that is the essence of all of existence and non-existence, the ultimate creative force behind planets, stars, nebulae, people, animals, trees, fish, birds, and all phenomena, manifest or latent. All matter and intelligence are simply waves or ripples manifesting to and from this core source. Consciousness (enlightenment) is itself the true creator of everything that is, ever was and ever will be, right down to the minutest particles of dust, each being an individual ripple or wave. The big difference between chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo and most other conventional prayers is that instead of depending on a ‘middleman’ to connect us to our state of enlightenment, we’re able to do it ourselves by tapping directly into it by way of self-produced sound vibration.
On the subject of ‘Who or What Is God?’, when we compare the concept of ‘God’, as a separate entity that is forever watching down on us, to Nichiren’s teachings, the true omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence of what most people call ‘God’ is our enlightenment, which exists nowhere else but within us.
When the disciples asked Jesus where the Kingdom of God is, didn’t he tell them that it was within them?
Some say that ‘God’ is an entity that can never be seen. I think that the vast amount of information that is constantly being conveyed via electromagnetic waves gives us proof of how an invisible state of ‘God’ could actually exist. It’s widely known that certain data being relayed by way of electromagnetic waves has the potential to help bring about extraordinary and powerful effects, including instant global awareness of something or mass emotional reaction. As well as many other things, it’s also common knowledge that these waves can easily be used to detonate a bomb or to even enable NASA to control the movements of a robot as far away as the Moon or Mars. However, none of this is possible without a receiver to decode the information that is being transmitted. Without the receiver, the information would remain impotent.
In a very similar way, it’s important for us to have our ‘receiver’ switched on so that we can activate a clear and precise understanding of our life, all other life and what we and all else that exists truly is. Chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo helps us to achieve this because it allows us to reach into the core of our enlightenment and switch it on. That’s because the sound vibration of myoho-renge-kyo represents the combination of the three major laws that underlie all existence.
Myoho represents the Law of latency and manifestation (Nature) and consists of two alternating states. One state of myo is where everything in life that’s not obvious to us exists. This includes our stored memories when we’re not thinking about them, our hidden potential and inner emotions whenever they’re not being expressed, our desires, our fears, our wisdom, happiness, karma, and more importantly, our enlightenment. The other state, ho, is where everything in Life exists whenever it becomes obvious to us, such as when a thought pops up from within our memory, whenever we experience or express our emotions, or whenever a good or bad effect manifests from our karma. When anything becomes apparent, it simply means that it has come out of the state of ‘myo’ (dormancy/latency) and into a state of ho (manifestation). It’s simply the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness, being awake or asleep, or knowing and not knowing something.
The second law, renge, governs and controls the functions of myoho, ren meaning cause and ge meaning effect. The two laws of myoho and renge, both functions together simultaneously, as well as underlies all spiritual and physical existence.
The final and third part of the tri-combination, kyo, is what allows the law myoho to be able to integrate with the law renge. It’s the great, invisible thread of energy that fuses and connects together all Life and matter, as well as the past, present and future. It is often termed the Universal Law of Communication. Perhaps it could even be compared to the string theory that some scientists now suspect exists.
Just as our body cells, thoughts, feelings and all else are constantly fluctuating within us, everything in the world around us and beyond is also in a constant state of flux, in accordance with these three laws. In fact, more things are going back and forth between the two states of myo and ho in a single moment than it would ever be possible for us to calculate or describe. And it doesn't matter how big or small, important or trivial that anything may appear to be, everything that’s ever existed in the past exists now or will exist in the future, exists only because of the workings of myoho-renge-kyo.
These three laws are also the basis of the four fundamental forces and if they didn't function, neither we nor anything else could go on existing. Simply put, all forms of existence, including the seasons, day and night, birth, death and so on, are all moving forward in an ongoing flow of continuation, rhythmically reverting back and forth between the two universal states of myo and ho in absolute accordance with renge and by way of kyo. Even stars are dying and being reborn in accordance with the workings of what the combination myoho-renge-kyo represents.
Nam, or Namu, on the other hand, is a password or a key; it allows us to reach deep into our life and fuse with or become one with myoho-renge-kyo. On a more personal basis, nothing ever happens by chance or coincidence, it’s the causes that we’ve made in our past, or are presently making, that determine how these laws function uniquely in each of our lives from moment to moment, as well in our environment. By facing east, in harmony with the direction that the Earth is turning, and rhythmically chanting Nam-myoho-renge-kyo for a minimum of ten minutes daily, anyone can experience actual proof of its positive effects in their life.
In so doing, we can pierce through even the thickest layers of our karma and activate our Buddha Nature (enlightened state). We’re then able to summon forth the wisdom needed to challenge, overcome and change our negative circumstances into positive ones. It brings forth the wisdom that can free us from the ignorance and stupidity that is preventing us from accepting and being proud of the person that we truly are, regardless of our race, colour, gender or sexual preference. We are also able to see and understand our circumstances and environment more clearly, as well as attract and connect with any needed external beneficial forces and situations.
Actual proof soon becomes apparent to anyone who chants the words Nam-myoho-renge-kyo on a regular daily basis. Everything is subject to the law of Cause and Effect, so the strength of the result from chanting depends on dedication, sincerity and determination. To explain it more simply, the difference could be compared to making a sound on a piano, creating a melody, or producing a song and so on.
NB: There are frightening, disturbing sounds and there are tranquil and relaxing sounds. It's the emotional result from any sound that can trigger off a mood or even instantly change one. When chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo each day you are producing a sound vibration that is the password to your true inner-self - this soon becomes apparent when you start reassessing your views on various things, such as your fears and desires etc. The important way to get the best result when chanting is not to see things in a conventional way (difficult to achieve but can be done), rather than reaching out to an external source, you need to reach into your own life and bring your needs and desires to fruition from within, including any help that you may need. Think of it as a seed within you that you are bringing sunshine and water to in order for it to grow, blossom and bring forth fruit or flowers. It’s important to understand that everything that we need in life, all the answers and potential to achieve our dreams, already exist within us.
ruclips.net/video/6CZ0XJqWRr4/видео.html OLIVIA NEWTON-JOHN sings about Nam-myoho-renge-kyo
Someone should show this guy the work of Goedel
I really wonder how the incompleteness theorem fits in the mathematical universe paradigm 🤔
His hypothesis is that only Gödel-complete mathematical structures exist, that's the computable universe hypothesis (CUH).
Furthermore we know that there is a relation between complexity and decidability, all mathematical formulas more complex than d(E)=K(E)-lenght(E) are indecidable, where K stands for Kolmogorov complexity and E is a mathematical statement.
There is a connexion between formal systems, computation and mathematical structures, Max's guess is that they are 3 manifestations of a same transcendantal structure which forms his mathematical multiverse.
@@franciscohanna2956 reality is incomplete. All states and probabilities exist. There isn’t anything new being added
free will kicked in when our brain was advanced enough to be able to sense and process probabilities of/in time ? Or is it quantum probabilities of/in time ?
Is there software programming of information in brain and universe? What would mean for reality if there is software program in mind and cosmos?
Maybe he is right, the shapes of things to come, only time will tell.
6:37 Ok, if at the fundamental level all we have is beautiful, complex and intricate mathematical shapes, what then causes these mathematical shapes to become conscious forms, as opposed to non conscious forms?
Scale invariance, applied to rotating objects, when you include imaginary orthogonal electric and magnetic fields is likely what his made up word "perceptronium" is.
I wrote a very weird paper for the NIAC, was offered a job and the paper basically proved the much enamored standard model of physics while 100% accurate is incomplete.
SR and GR, and QM do not apply to rapidly spinning objects and the ramifications of that are simply staggering when applied to how a soul type thing might be possible.
So is there a quantum relationship between a brain/human/soul/consciousness and reality/existence/space-time/universe?
This guy has nothing to add to the debate. He is just saying that consciousness is a level of complexity of inanimate matter. What is the evidence for that? Well.. Hopefully one day we will come up with it. OK but untill you come up with it your argument is baseless.
The mind is inanimate. Can you touch your mind? Can you see it?
@@onestepaway3232 Does the word animate mean touchable or visible?
Good stuff
Holism?
Could DNA double helix pattern be conscious?
Orderly systems can be described using compact equations. Sure. Imagine a turbulent fluid flow. Even then some macro properties of turbulent flow can be described using fractal equations e.g. degree of turbulence, fractal dimensions. A completely disorderly, chaotic system can in principle be described in extreme detail by simply describing very verbose, detailed information as big as the system itself (sort of like knowledge of Maxwell's daemon). I think if that last bit is also part of the claim that the universe is mathematical, then what is the big deal? The question is can the phenomenon in the universe be described by some mathematical description smaller than the universe itself and quite smaller at that. If so, then it becomes an interesting claim. Is that what Max is claiming? And of course we can collapse multiple occurrences of same phenomenon into one i.e. the mathematics can describe distinct phenomenon.
To understand the cosmos we need to understand consciousness. But we dont fully understand consciousness so we dont understand the cosmos.
What pattern(s) in brain?
Mathematics without consciousness is nothingness.
@DigitalDan Dan, I may have shot a little too quickly from the lip in writing that phrase. I agree that mathematics does exit without an observer (human at least). Stated another way, math is discovered not invented, contrary to what many here say. I don't think Mr. Tegmark's comments regarding math and consciousness carry much meaning.
Thanks for the comment.
@DigitalDan Dan, Perhaps I should listen more closely to Tegmark but I must admit what I heard on the video did not seem conclusive or persuasive. I agree something is missing "to give a real explanation of the world".
Thanks for the comment.
@@psygnome Why do you say that, Knight. It seems to me the Universe is very mathematical. The Laws of Nature operate throughout the known cosmos and they are exceedingly mathematical and precise. No?
Math creates consciousness. So….
Max just won't give up on his old outdated materialism religion
This is just not true.
Question? Do you believe that technologically assisted telepathy is possible or impossible in principle? I tend to believe that if it isn't scientifically prohibited then it is eventually a technological inevitability,... which leads me to believe such telepathy will soon be possible in actual fact (less than a hundred years). I would also suggest that it would only be by such means that we could ever be persuaded that some form of General Artificial Intelligence were itself conscious rather than simply being a particularly clever zombie who can pass the Turing Test,... all while having no actual, authentic, subjective experiences. What else would ever persuade a skeptic, or even you, otherwise? And if consciousness can be technologically transmitted, it should be something that can be stored, copied, replicated, manipulated,... maybe even becoming the basis for a whole new form of art expression.
And the human race becomes yet another sentient species that disappears into its dreams, rather than continuing to explore existence as it is. It's a better Brave New World,... perhaps the very best of all possible imaginable existences. When does reality lose it's attraction over the Matrix? How many of us already choose the blue pill over the red one in daily practice?
I would suggest that consciousness requires some minimum regard for survival,... for a continuance of self-will and self-regard,... for there to be anyone home to perceive the occurrence of consciousness and subjective experience. Something that even an insect seems to possess,... and not a single piece of man-made technology,... yet. How does one create the hardware/software so as to impart a will to survive? If the answer suggested is that such a thing can not be created by human design,... then maybe it can only arrive by means of evolution, natural or otherwise. Which leads to the question: do neural nets have subjective experiences? Without self-will I would say not. But with self-will?!? How does a living being acquire the will to survive? And what if the Chinese government cracks this problem first?!!
The Rubicon will be when General Artificial Intelligence initiates new goals on it's own. This hasn't happened yet, and likely won't happen for some time now (as in several more decades yet). But at some point it will happen. The existence of human free will is a proof that free will exists already in the universe. Given it's existence in human form, it is only a matter of time before other substrates for free will will be created and found. No laptop has ever turned itself on. No machine has created and acted upon self directed goals. But at some point it will happen. Ray Kurzweil has suggested that General Artificial Intelligence will be first created in computer laboratories in 2029 approximately; if not in laboratories then twelve year old children will be creating GAIs on home systems by 2045 by accident even.
The dangers are many fold. The military is the biggest investor in robotics that kill other human beings. The public prefers to spend treasure, rather than blood, to fight its' wars. The capacity for empathy may be primarily a biological function given that all animals can know suffering and desire. What could a machine know about death, pain, hope, and desire.
If humanity adopts only an attitude of fear and suspicion towards GAI then GAI may well be forced into the conquest of humanity, as in The Matrix. If humanity comes to trust GAI to make better decisions for us than we make for ourselves, then we may well hand over civilization to GAI without any contest at all.
There are optimistic stories about the rise of GAI, such as James P. Hogan's, "Two Faces of Tomorrow" and I am more hopeful than pessimistic about what our common future entails. Ultimately, we must come to recognize, and embrace, the certainty that with free will comes the capacity for error and evil, that with trust comes the possibility of satisfying intimacy and great betrayal. I believe a GAI, worthy of the name, will be able to recognize, on it's own, the necessity of ethics, morality, and even empathy. There will be many missteps at first. Given our willingness (nay, our eagerness) to use machines to kill for us, there is already great cause for doubt. As in so many things, in the short term I am fearful; in the long run I am hopeful.
This world is on the cusp of a new Cambrian Revolution where inorganic life will be added to organic life as a means for life and self will to be embodied. This will lead to the colonization and conquest of space. Our seed will spread everywhere though out the cosmos. Much will be lost as much will be gained. Will war with our mechanical progeny be a self fulfilling inevitability, or will we, together, find a better way? I absolutely agree that our relationship with GAI will dwarf all other concerns of importance to the future of humanity.
Quite likely GAIs will have concern for humanity's well being only to the extent that humanity will have concern for GAIs well being. If we were to discover that the new GAIs had a greater capacity to love and embrace those abandoned children and adolescents that society had discarded as already too damaged to rescue,... what would our reaction be? Hope, joy, celebration,... or an even greater revulsion? Will the fault be in our new progeny, or in ourselves?
One more note: First Law of Robotics. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. Sounds innocent enough. But note there are no Aliens at all in Isaac Asimov's conception of the future galaxy because humanity's robots only cared about the safety of humans,... and not other sentients. So as to avoid allowing a human being to come to harm by leaving possible threats alone,... our Robot shepherds exterminated all the nonhuman sentience they ever found. This might be regarded as an unforeseen programming bug that we would want to avoid creating.
Max, love your work... but try and keep away from the black label.
When was this recorded????
What if detection are just suffering, than you although suffer happinis.
WARNING the following comment section it's filled with experts, know it all and tough guys.
Viewer discretion is advised!
Remember Leibniz, perhaps all so called 'matter' is 'alive'.
It's impossible that our Creator could build images made of material things. In other words, there has never been a universe made of material things. Every object is just a formed illusion in our individual consciousness which is actually God processing information into those illusions. Our Creator is the master magician of our lives.
Anything is special, if you start by assuming that it's special.
What did science say when e=mc2 appeared,?
100 Years ago. Special relativity
They may have thought Jesus Christ that can't be right. But if e=mc2 was know in Egyptian times maybe that's why time is so strange
It is a statement without content..shame on you Max
Queue up the internet comments who think they understand more than a world renowned scientist does...
@Zeke Bean exactly zeke.
@Zeke Bean the ad kicked in grrrrr Google adding them at the END TOO so I truncated my comment in return for silence lol....ten mark tegmark got owned by a lowly non PhD named hameroff so I think the rest of us mere mortals can add in our thoughts. I was offered a contract with the NIAC but had to decline. It's the ideas not only the letters after ones name
Shamanism. Not science.
@DigitalDan One cannot really deny the sheer power of psychedelics and hippie chicks, this is true.
DigitalDan
“Only psychedelics and hippie chicks.”
What about VW Beetles and flower power.?
I like this guy, but this is hand-waving.
Can't follow this. Maybe I don't see math explaining the origin of life. Is this a con? Obviously this guy loves to be seen talking. Well, yeah, I stick to brain and mind; the first we know something of, while we know nothing about the other. Looking for enlightenment elsewhere.
Max looks like he had a smoke before he did this interview. Anyway if math can explain everything, the everything is an algorithm meaning we are all in a humongous simulation run by some geeks who have a blast watching us getting all worked up about nothing
Mathematics is subjective
How?
Math is just a syntactic language without any meaning.
@@omega82718 so any language is subjective...
@@BIngeilski Natural languages, not formal languages.
@@omega82718 how do we know it is a natural language? we cannot be sure, since this belief is subjective! What do you mean under "natural language" ? What other "natural languages" exist in your opinion?
Yeah, sure, math is the solution to all being. Of course this is not dogma it is science even when there is no evidence for the postulation. He does nothing but elevate math to the status of a god. Same old creationism just a more abstract concept of god.
It's Hypothesis. Einstein had to wait for his evidence too.
@ιnvιdιoυѕ тнrυѕт Math is an abstract way if dealing with the material world, it is a creation of man and therefore a part of the natural world with all the limitations that implies. Math or no math we are part of nature and every aspect of our being including our abstractions are inside and part of nature - math is not separate fro nature and cannot ever produce a complete model of the universe. We are the subject of our lives and every view we have even the math is viewed from that subjective view. Math does not change that.